Good summary. Also agree that although scarcely discussed, there is a lot of potential with them, especially concerning their decline in the mid Third Age. I know it's not really true to what we know is canonical about them, but I do like to think of a few thousand Black Númenóreans serving the Witch-King of Angmar as an elite legion in the Angmar Wars (not necessarily as prevalent as they are in the Rise Of The Witch King in The Lord Of The Rings: Battle For Middle Earth II expansion etc but generally numerous enough to be a serious fighting force on the battlefields of Rhudaur and Cardolan) Even then most would be gone long before Arthedain fell, but I'd still just like to think of them as a sort of elite guards legion for the Witch-King. The Gundabad Orcs would be his 2nd best troops (unlike the arrow fodder version of them literally called 'rabble' in the game) Obviously this isn't including the various Olog-Hai and sorcerors of his seen in that game, but it did make a good range of units for the Angmar faction. I think apart from a handful of Black Númenórean families we could speculate still remained in Umbar, even after the various changing of hands of the city (especially in the time of the mighty ship Kings of Gondor) went through, in a bit of worldbuilding headcanon/speculation. Any others would likely have just withered away with too small a population to replace their losses, long before the Fourth Age. I like to think that a few survived and went East, influencing the Easterlings and acting as emissaries for Sauron after Sauron left the East to go to Dol Guldur and later back to Mordor. The idea of a few ancient ones surviving in the Far East of Rhûn, perhaps encountering the Blue Wizards, does seem like a fun concept to consider and work with ''fanfic'' wise (god I hate that term, it just never sounds right to me; but yes, speculation and worldbuilding for the gaps and mysteries - however deliberate or not by the author - in Tolkien's legendarium can be fun) P.S - in the concept where any Black Númenóreans find themselves in Eriador at all, I imagine them being brought through via Mount Gundabad, after small groups moved up the Vales of the Anduin in secrecy, coming through Dol Guldur first then continuing to the Carrock crossing over from the East Bank of the Anduin, avoiding Lórien like the plague (though occasionally still running into bother, with Thranduil's troops wiping out some of these groups, but not understanding their purpose) When they only have a few paragraphs in all the works of Tolkien, it does leave room for the imagination to ponder what they were up to. Or perhaps the populations in Harondor, Near Harad and beyond, were all there really were as far as a viable population went. I can just imagine Sauron being particularly keen to make sure Angmar had some of his finest troops to help destroy Arnor. Respecting J.R.R Tolkien's vision is important, though I think it's fair that fans find their own interpretations in the mysteries (some of which, he left behind deliberately of course, for the sake of echoing the mysteries of myths and legends)
@@canonmontage4956 Thanks for the reply. @Darth Gandalf I'd also love to see this. I think I'm in a position to speak for your entire fanbase. We'd all love to see more "what if" and "who would win" style videos, comparing lord of the rings characters to other series such as Harry Potter, Star Wars, etc.
The Last Days of the Third Age mod for Mount and Blade also features them as an evil counterpart to the Dunedain. The Dunedian are recruitable from Imladris (which primarily fields Noldor), while the BNs are recruitable from the Morannon. They are rather underwhelming troops, probably a nod to their decline in-universe, but they do also provide some lords & a sorcerer for Evil.
I did actually play a Black Numenorean character in that mod. Unfortunately, I never made it far. It was fun, but I heard the mod was never really well balanced.
In divide and conquer I believe the Ar Ardunaim are more remnants of the Kings men and not black numenoreans . Their culture also says King's Men. Mordor can recruit them in the fortress of Durthang I believe, fortress north of Cirith Ungol and West of Barad Dur. The black numenoreans come in knights, archers and swordsmen. Plus, the Nazgul all have black numenorean bodyguard units.
This is true. Arachir left Ar-Adunaim open for the player's decision. You could play as Black Numenoreans by aligning with Sauron, but you can also oppose him (which is what I did in my playthrough).
@@annewise4826 Oh no if you go down the King's Men route and oppose Sauron you are still evil, you still want the removal of Gondor for good. You just want to dominate mankind yourself rather than Sauron.
Great video, i have my own video idea for you. Would you make a video about how powerful the Shire was at the time of the War of the Ring, perhaps even at other times as well. Shire lore is always the most interesting to me, thanks for your consideration.
You should also consider that after the civil war in Gondor many highborn Gondorians fled to Umbar. That this continued to happen as long as the line of Anorien continued. Perhaps this influx of fresh blood reinvigorated this Numenorean counter culture.
Ugh, reminding me of Shadow of Mordor. It got a lot wrong, but I always felt that it was a somewhat respectful fan fic. It felt like it was made by someone who was enthusiastic, but ignorant. Which I can forgive since the game was fun to play. Shadow of War was just a huge middle finger to Tolkien’s world building. I’m still correcting misconceptions that stem from that creatively bankrupt disaster.
It just drives me mad that people write in comment sections that Isildur or Helm are Nazguls just based on that non-canon games... or that Celebrimbor is their favorite Tolkien character based on his backstory... from these games 🤮
Michèl Morio Yeah, it gets really annoying having to explain that the nazgul are so much older than Isildur or Helm. Then there is the “light of Galadriel” that they clearly didn’t understand. They treated it like a magical power and gave it to the elf lady to fight Nazgul (which is stupid to begin with) even though in the book it is made from the essence of a silmaril. It’s not something you give out willy nilly. Shelob and Sauron were made lovers when Sauron only ever referred to her as his cat. The game includes a “shield maiden of Gondor” and those didn’t exist, that was just pandering. Idril should have been a healer, that’s what gondorian women were known for and still could have been a strong female character, but small minds think physical strength is the only metric for strength. Carnan didn’t exist either. That was the most pointless character in the whole game. She was basically just there to demean your character while asking for your help, which she honestly didn’t even need. That’s me just getting started. There’s so much more that they messed up.
@@kolbywilliams6288 The Idea that some Elven Smith could overpower Sauron in battle is a laugh as well, and even nearly dominate his mind is laughable. Talion also somehow broke the hold Sauron had on Isildur ( let's not even get into that Lore breaking) as a ring wraith even though the only way they could be free is when Sauron is destroyed for good or i assume Eru himself makes it so.
Some of them migrated into Gondor, others are the ancestors of the people of Dale and Lake-town/Esgaroth... the Eotheod rode southeast and became the Rohirrim of Rohan... others still settle the Vale of Anduin (the people of Beorn and his son Grimbeorn) or along the river Celduin that flows from the Lonely Mountain down to the Sea of Rhun via the Long Lake!
The Black Numenoreans kind of remind me of the Canaanites and the decendents of Esau's sons who all fought against the decendents Jacob's sons which they instigated after they create the nation of Yahshar'el and went to war against them many times and fought alongside the nephilim to destroy them. A conflict which was their doing in the book of Jubilees.
I don't understand why the Valar forced them to make the choice of A go to Valinor even if you don't want too or B stay in Middle Earth and slowly lose your physical body for wanting to stay in Middle Earth. Talk about stretch and harsh.
The Valar aren't the ones behind that. I'll try to explain it without writing an essay - before the Elves even awoke, Melkor tainted Arda. In other words, he left scars upon Arda that would never heal. The Elves, being bound to Arda and its fate, basically suffer the same hurts that Arda suffers. So when Elves are in Middle-earth, they will gradually weaken, their works will become more rustic, their magic will fade. This is why First Age Elves were so much mightier than their descendants in the Third Age. The Valar offered the Elves the choice of living in Valinor, which they had blessed so that it was free of Melkor's corruption. Only in Valinor could Elves live without gradually weakening from the scars that Melkor left behind. Elves were free to remain in Middle-earth, but the Valar would ultimately not be responsible for their fate. The Valar can come across as a bit harsh or absolutist, but this one was a pretty fair deal.
Thor's Hammer The Valar are also no gods, they don‘t possess the power to decide what happens to entire races/species... only Eru Iluvatar, the one and only god, does... the Valar are just the „stewards of his creation and plan“, compare them rather to angels
If I was to chose a race to be in Tolkien’s universe. I would be a Black Numenorean I just feel bad what happened to their island and yes I know they did it to themselves but all those innocent souls smashed and drowned under those waves is fucked up. I want me some revenge.
Disappointed that Games Workshop made Black Numenorean heads carbon copies of the Mouth of Sauron. At least later with their plastic Morgul Knights they've went in the right direction.
@ Darth Gandalf Great video, I love your content. Keep up the good work. You should do a livestream on every ten thousand subscribers like on History Of Middle Earth's channel It be epic.
I've fought quite a few Black Numenoreans, and easily defeated them...and I'm only slightly more powerful than a Dunedain...so it is my educated guess that a Dunedain could handily defeat a Black Numenorean in a even fight...
Just helping with the algorithm
Ok
Good summary. Also agree that although scarcely discussed, there is a lot of potential with them, especially concerning their decline in the mid Third Age. I know it's not really true to what we know is canonical about them, but I do like to think of a few thousand Black Númenóreans serving the Witch-King of Angmar as an elite legion in the Angmar Wars (not necessarily as prevalent as they are in the Rise Of The Witch King in The Lord Of The Rings: Battle For Middle Earth II expansion etc but generally numerous enough to be a serious fighting force on the battlefields of Rhudaur and Cardolan) Even then most would be gone long before Arthedain fell, but I'd still just like to think of them as a sort of elite guards legion for the Witch-King.
The Gundabad Orcs would be his 2nd best troops (unlike the arrow fodder version of them literally called 'rabble' in the game) Obviously this isn't including the various Olog-Hai and sorcerors of his seen in that game, but it did make a good range of units for the Angmar faction. I think apart from a handful of Black Númenórean families we could speculate still remained in Umbar, even after the various changing of hands of the city (especially in the time of the mighty ship Kings of Gondor) went through, in a bit of worldbuilding headcanon/speculation. Any others would likely have just withered away with too small a population to replace their losses, long before the Fourth Age.
I like to think that a few survived and went East, influencing the Easterlings and acting as emissaries for Sauron after Sauron left the East to go to Dol Guldur and later back to Mordor. The idea of a few ancient ones surviving in the Far East of Rhûn, perhaps encountering the Blue Wizards, does seem like a fun concept to consider and work with ''fanfic'' wise (god I hate that term, it just never sounds right to me; but yes, speculation and worldbuilding for the gaps and mysteries - however deliberate or not by the author - in Tolkien's legendarium can be fun)
P.S - in the concept where any Black Númenóreans find themselves in Eriador at all, I imagine them being brought through via Mount Gundabad, after small groups moved up the Vales of the Anduin in secrecy, coming through Dol Guldur first then continuing to the Carrock crossing over from the East Bank of the Anduin, avoiding Lórien like the plague (though occasionally still running into bother, with Thranduil's troops wiping out some of these groups, but not understanding their purpose)
When they only have a few paragraphs in all the works of Tolkien, it does leave room for the imagination to ponder what they were up to. Or perhaps the populations in Harondor, Near Harad and beyond, were all there really were as far as a viable population went. I can just imagine Sauron being particularly keen to make sure Angmar had some of his finest troops to help destroy Arnor. Respecting J.R.R Tolkien's vision is important, though I think it's fair that fans find their own interpretations in the mysteries (some of which, he left behind deliberately of course, for the sake of echoing the mysteries of myths and legends)
Hey mate, appreciate you finally answering this one for me. Has kept me awake on a few occasions.
True, what I'm curious to know is if all the Numenoreans & all of the Voldemorts army had fight who would be the likely victory?
@@canonmontage4956 Thanks for the reply. @Darth Gandalf I'd also love to see this. I think I'm in a position to speak for your entire fanbase. We'd all love to see more "what if" and "who would win" style videos, comparing lord of the rings characters to other series such as Harry Potter, Star Wars, etc.
The Last Days of the Third Age mod for Mount and Blade also features them as an evil counterpart to the Dunedain. The Dunedian are recruitable from Imladris (which primarily fields Noldor), while the BNs are recruitable from the Morannon. They are rather underwhelming troops, probably a nod to their decline in-universe, but they do also provide some lords & a sorcerer for Evil.
I did actually play a Black Numenorean character in that mod. Unfortunately, I never made it far. It was fun, but I heard the mod was never really well balanced.
@@DarthGandalfYTThere is a submod for it which makes units and other things more similar to the movies and I find that's a lot better balanced
In divide and conquer I believe the Ar Ardunaim are more remnants of the Kings men and not black numenoreans . Their culture also says King's Men. Mordor can recruit them in the fortress of Durthang I believe, fortress north of Cirith Ungol and West of Barad Dur. The black numenoreans come in knights, archers and swordsmen. Plus, the Nazgul all have black numenorean bodyguard units.
This is true. Arachir left Ar-Adunaim open for the player's decision. You could play as Black Numenoreans by aligning with Sauron, but you can also oppose him (which is what I did in my playthrough).
@@DarthGandalfYT that must have been fun correcting the wrongs of the kings men
@@annewise4826 Oh no if you go down the King's Men route and oppose Sauron you are still evil, you still want the removal of Gondor for good. You just want to dominate mankind yourself rather than Sauron.
Great video, i have my own video idea for you. Would you make a video about how powerful the Shire was at the time of the War of the Ring, perhaps even at other times as well. Shire lore is always the most interesting to me, thanks for your consideration.
You should also consider that after the civil war in Gondor many highborn Gondorians fled to Umbar. That this continued to happen as long as the line of Anorien continued. Perhaps this influx of fresh blood reinvigorated this Numenorean counter culture.
Ugh, reminding me of Shadow of Mordor. It got a lot wrong, but I always felt that it was a somewhat respectful fan fic. It felt like it was made by someone who was enthusiastic, but ignorant. Which I can forgive since the game was fun to play. Shadow of War was just a huge middle finger to Tolkien’s world building. I’m still correcting misconceptions that stem from that creatively bankrupt disaster.
It just drives me mad that people write in comment sections that Isildur or Helm are Nazguls just based on that non-canon games... or that Celebrimbor is their favorite Tolkien character based on his backstory... from these games 🤮
Michèl Morio
Yeah, it gets really annoying having to explain that the nazgul are so much older than Isildur or Helm. Then there is the “light of Galadriel” that they clearly didn’t understand. They treated it like a magical power and gave it to the elf lady to fight Nazgul (which is stupid to begin with) even though in the book it is made from the essence of a silmaril. It’s not something you give out willy nilly. Shelob and Sauron were made lovers when Sauron only ever referred to her as his cat. The game includes a “shield maiden of Gondor” and those didn’t exist, that was just pandering. Idril should have been a healer, that’s what gondorian women were known for and still could have been a strong female character, but small minds think physical strength is the only metric for strength. Carnan didn’t exist either. That was the most pointless character in the whole game. She was basically just there to demean your character while asking for your help, which she honestly didn’t even need. That’s me just getting started. There’s so much more that they messed up.
@@kolbywilliams6288 The Idea that some Elven Smith could overpower Sauron in battle is a laugh as well, and even nearly dominate his mind is laughable. Talion also somehow broke the hold Sauron had on Isildur ( let's not even get into that Lore breaking) as a ring wraith even though the only way they could be free is when Sauron is destroyed for good or i assume Eru himself makes it so.
very nice man, u should talk about the lost Northmen!
i never knew how they desintegrated and wich ones went wich way..
Some of them migrated into Gondor, others are the ancestors of the people of Dale and Lake-town/Esgaroth... the Eotheod rode southeast and became the Rohirrim of Rohan... others still settle the Vale of Anduin (the people of Beorn and his son Grimbeorn) or along the river Celduin that flows from the Lonely Mountain down to the Sea of Rhun via the Long Lake!
The Black Numenoreans kind of remind me of the Canaanites and the decendents of Esau's sons who all fought against the decendents Jacob's sons which they instigated after they create the nation of Yahshar'el and went to war against them many times and fought alongside the nephilim to destroy them. A conflict which was their doing in the book of Jubilees.
Tolkien was catholic
@@ゼロシン
And do you think I do not know that? It doesn't mean he might have got some inspired references from reading the old testament and noticing it.
Very well made summary!
Thank you again
Thanks for another great video❤️
What happens to the Elves who stay on Middle Earth after the Third Age?
They become spirits and slowly faded out of existence
Their bodies would slowly fade away but their fea, inner spirit, would remain in existance until the remaking of Arda.
I don't understand why the Valar forced them to make the choice of A go to Valinor even if you don't want too or B stay in Middle Earth and slowly lose your physical body for wanting to stay in Middle Earth. Talk about stretch and harsh.
The Valar aren't the ones behind that. I'll try to explain it without writing an essay - before the Elves even awoke, Melkor tainted Arda. In other words, he left scars upon Arda that would never heal. The Elves, being bound to Arda and its fate, basically suffer the same hurts that Arda suffers. So when Elves are in Middle-earth, they will gradually weaken, their works will become more rustic, their magic will fade. This is why First Age Elves were so much mightier than their descendants in the Third Age.
The Valar offered the Elves the choice of living in Valinor, which they had blessed so that it was free of Melkor's corruption. Only in Valinor could Elves live without gradually weakening from the scars that Melkor left behind. Elves were free to remain in Middle-earth, but the Valar would ultimately not be responsible for their fate. The Valar can come across as a bit harsh or absolutist, but this one was a pretty fair deal.
Thor's Hammer The Valar are also no gods, they don‘t possess the power to decide what happens to entire races/species... only Eru Iluvatar, the one and only god, does... the Valar are just the „stewards of his creation and plan“, compare them rather to angels
And thank you again
If I was to chose a race to be in Tolkien’s universe. I would be a Black Numenorean I just feel bad what happened to their island and yes I know they did it to themselves but all those innocent souls smashed and drowned under those waves is fucked up. I want me some revenge.
Revenge against God? Hmm... Good luck with that.
Drinking game:
Have a shot every time he says Numenoreans lol 🍻 😵 😂
Could Castamir and his followers who fought Eldacar´s loyalists and then fled to Umbar be counted as black Numenoreans?
Disappointed that Games Workshop made Black Numenorean heads carbon copies of the Mouth of Sauron. At least later with their plastic Morgul Knights they've went in the right direction.
I just looked them up, and yeah, I'm not a fan of the whole monstrous, "Mouth of Sauron" aesthetic. The Morgul Knights do look a lot better.
An interesting subject, good video as well.
Thank you for your content
Your best video ever
1:47 which game is this?!
War in the North.
Black Númenoreans... Tolkien flirting with cancellation?!🤣
Adaptation vs adaption...
Comparing Black Numenoreans and Dunedain sounds a lot like the Sith and Jedi. Coincidence George Lucas!!
Do we really have to bring color into this? black!? (joking)
Why the numenoreans got to be black?
(Key and Peele joke)
Just look at the new cast for the Amazon series. It's not a joke anymore, it's a nightmare.
What about black numenoreans in the lord of the rings the rise of the witch king for angmar 😤😂
I forgot about them. The upgraded Dark Ranger units were very good.
@@DarthGandalfYT do you still play rise of the witch king? Surprisingly it still has a community that has been updating the game
🧐
@ Darth Gandalf Great video, I love your content. Keep up the good work. You should do a livestream on every ten thousand subscribers like on History Of Middle Earth's channel It be epic.
what makes you think only two of the three main baddies in shadow of mordor are black numenoreans?
The Hammer was from Gondor, became corrupted by grabbing Sauron's mace
I've fought quite a few Black Numenoreans, and easily defeated them...and I'm only slightly more powerful than a Dunedain...so it is my educated guess that a Dunedain could handily defeat a Black Numenorean in a even fight...
And thank you again