As Gabe mentions here, he's raised this with us and rest assured, we're already looking into it. We understand that reliable transitions are key, and these issues are making that a bit tricky. Hang tight! We'll keep you all updated with more concrete info as soon as we have it 😊👍
@NovationTV this is a great response. I love the Circuit workflow (have both the Rhythm, Tracks, and a Mono Station), but I ran into these exact issues myself about 2 months ago. Please improve project sync, audio latency, and add *scene* sync too (PLEASE - scenes are great; manually syncing them is a PITA)
For awareness about another issue: when linking the Rhythm with other gear and using MIDI sync of tempo. If the Rhythm is RECEIVING tempo sync from another gear (be that a Tracks), so the Rhythm is kinda the slave in the set, and you try to record sample thru the external audio input on the Rhythm (say you have a chord progression on the Tracks and you wanna make an 1bar sample of it), the Rhythm will not take the synced tempo for the recording. Therefore if Tracks has 140bpm set as Tempo, the Rhythm will - strangely - not use that to calc the lenght of the recording but rather it will take it's 'last used internal Tempo', and the sample will be cut short or let run too long. To overcome this, you would have to temporarily disable the Rhythm receiving MIDI CC messages, so that the tempo will turn back to manual, and then you should set the same tempo on the Rhythm as it is on your Tracks, and then do the fixed lenght sampling.... OFC if you swap the master-slave so that your Rhythm is the master (sends MIDI out to the slave) then it will also have control over the Tempo, and in that setup the fixed lenght recording will also be correct. But sometimes you may want your Tracks be the 'control master' that sends out midi cc and control messages to other gear, including the Rhythm.
It's so awesome that you show the intention to address and fix those bugs even in those "old" products. This is what's make them worth buying even today. (and that you guys were able to fix my usb midi connection issue even thou linux is not an supported OS for you. I have not forget that one!)
I find a lot of the major companies are designing products that at first glance have great features, but the moment you start to try to actually put them into practice in a high level performance as you've done here, they completely fall apart and we're forced to brute force our way into using the devices as they're expected to be used. Novation should be able to definitively say whether the the project switching issue is a feature or a bug. You should also be compensated for your time in essentially doing quality/feature testing that they should have done years ago. Great work!
If Taetro is being critical of Novation, that is a sign they should probably listen. I, along with a lot of other folks, am a Novation fanboy because of Taetro.
😎 I have both devices and I’m also building a self contained live setup with them. I was sold by the “Power Combo” as Novation promised on their Live with Calc videos. I hope they fix this for the community!! I still think those devices are awesome and have hope that they grow through the years like the OG Circuit did.
If I remember correctly I didn’t have Gabe’s problem when using the CT as the master for the CR. I’ve only done one live set with them so that might be the way to go.
Fixing these "bugs" would be really nice. Speaking as an owner of both Circuits. And it would be even more incredible if Novation would come up with an update that would actually make these devices sing when connected together 🎉
I think I have the solution to the patterns not lining up, if I understand the problem correctly. So on a single device, when you have patterns (or pattern chains) of different lengths and you change scene, it'll cue and change when the next pattern to finish does so. If you are running a single drum pattern with a two-chain bass pattern then it matters a great deal when you cue the scene change. If you cue it while in the second of the two bass patterns, everything works like you'd expect. But if you cue it while in the first of the two bass patterns, the drum single pattern will finish and the cue will trigger halfway through your bassline. But on a single device the only effect is that your bass got cut off, probably the rhythm in your song felt really off for a bit, but they stay in alignment because everything started at the beginning of the next scene. My fix for this has been to simply duplicate the drum pattern so that all patterns and pattern chains take the same amount of time to finish so I can cue a change whenever. The problem with the way the project change is sent is that not only does all the above happen, the Tracks jumps programs in the middle of it's pattern chain and then keeps that in mind going forward. And as you've said, you may not notice it until much later, but at some point the different pattern lengths of different parts will be misaligned. For now, assuming you have the pattern space, you can just make all patterns/chains the same length of time (at least on the Rhythm) as the longest pattern in the project (especially if that longest pattern is on the Tracks!). Then the Rhythm will jump only when all the parts are equally ready to move on. Of course, that might cause the performer issues if they've muted the long melodic pattern and are trying to do some transition work (filter/tempo/etc) into what they think is cued, only to be stuck waiting another two bars from when the planned the big drop.
I'd have to test it, but I think that could work, assuming there's not some bug acting as a confounding factor. It would kill the ability to do small fills and such, but regardless, thanks for thinking that through.
@@GabeMillerMusic No problem! It sounded really familiar when you were describing it, and I literally received my Rhythm (to add to my Tracks) two days ago so I could test my theory! I'd be super curious if there is indeed another bug/factor or not if you happen to follow up!
I have a circuit tracks that I love. I grabbed a rhythm on crazy sale for $180 but haven't gotten around to trying it out with the tracks. Thanks for this!
I had been planning to buy Circuit Rhythm for a week. I wanted to connect it to Tracks. Some cosmic force sent your warning and I saved money and avoided frustration. Thank you!
Great video as always and especially the deep dive in the quirks. I have both Tracks and Rhythm. Got them hoping for a self-contained dawless power-combo as advertised. Especially after seeing some Novation videos. Of course they were well made an useful, but I think your video is great in showing room for improvement, especially if someone is such a circuit power user, like you. I really hope that Novation can fix these things ASAP. Project starting out of sync seems to me like a bug that could be easily addresed by some firmware update.
Thank you for your videos, especially pertaining to these devices. This explains many issues I’ve experienced with these 2. Unfortunately they don’t work sending audio through each other, there’s always a show stopping latency issues and syncing issues. The sound is noticeably out of sync when beats are stacked.
Incredible series of videos. Great music in the first, and fantastic overview in the second. I ran into these same issues myself about 2 months ago. I managed to complete my track, but it was much more frustrating than I anticipated. Most importantly though, thank you for taking the time to contact, and work with Novation support, and for having enough clout to get their attention. Hopefully something is done because the Circuits are otherwise superb devices.
Thanks so much! Hopefully they can get something figured out. In the meantime, I've got one more in this series coming next week about the production/layering/song structure side of things.
I have not tried this, but looking at the midi programming references for both Circuits there is program change for both queued and instant project switching with the same midi value on both units. You could add a smallish programable midi controller to you setup to handle project changes and just send PMG 64-127 to both units on channel 16. That should initiate a queued switch on both at the same time. The midi routing might be tricky, but I think it would work. I can't test because I only have the Tracks so far, but this video got me thinking about picking up the Rhythm for something similar to this.
I SO feel this frustration. Months ago I went to battle syncing the Electribe Sampler 2 with a MicroKorg. I eventually got them synced but it was after ordering a MIDI Thru Filter Box from Germany then realizing that it was more a hindrance than help, finally messing with the MicroKorg slave settings (which are displayed as alien type circles) to finally get the damn thing to play when the Electribe told it to play and shut up when the Electribe told it to shut up. Next of course will be the battle in attempting a pitch bend on the MicroKorg and having the Electribe control that. Sometimes it seems more work to make it work than being creative. I look at the roadblock before me and I don't feel inspired anymore. It just looks like frustration.
It can definitely kill a creative streak. In this case, I was super determined to figure it out, but it easily could have gone differently. That's kinda why I ended up working with a setup that was functional but a bit janky, rather than optimal
17:30 the "fake" kick to trigger side chain is a classic move. It allows you to kill the real kick and still have the synths pumping, keeping your vibe for breakdowns.
I've been owning Rhythm and had a lot of fun until I realized that I feel limited to samples and it would be great to have a synth in the setup. So I thought about buying Tracks literally for this purpose. But I really wanted to make me sure that it will work. And I would say that those are minor issues! Thanks a lot for your efforts, absolutely amazing stuff!
I’ve also tried combining them, and had some challenges. So far my best result is just sending both through my TX-6 mixer, matching the tempo and try to tigger them manually in time. 😅 adding a sync in was a missed opportunity.
This video dropping yesterday was crazy timing, as my 2nd hand Rhythm literally arrived 4 hours before this video went live! The Rhythm seemed the perfect fit for my dawless workflow as the Tracks is my brain. Over Christmas there were a few good offers of sales on new Circuit Rhythms and i held back buying new, as i had a sneaky suspicion about the midi timing of these devices. I have been building a template, over the same Christmas break, in Ableton to record my JAMuary sessions from Tracks into Ableton and i had already noticed weird midi latency timing issues when recording there. So figured if i buy 2nd hand, i can sell on again, and possibly give up and just go and buy a Digitakt to use as my brain! Seems like this video has shown my suspicions to be true, but I'll start testing later and comment back.
Good luck! I have no idea how setup with Digitakt as a secondary would work, but hopefully this gets you going in a helpful direction for combining the Circuits.
@14:10 I told everyone for years that there's a significant and noticeable amount of latency on the inputs of either the Tracks or the Rhythm and absolutely noone believed me? I even proved it with audio examples where you clearly could hear the same as you showed us here, everyone totally ignored it?
I went back and checked, and your comment about the latency two years ago is one of the things that made me pay attention to it. I mentioned it a little over a year ago in an updated review and in various other places, so I've been on that for a while. So no, I definitely didn't ignore it, although I didn't find it to be as much of a problem until I started piping in percussive elements.
@@GabeMillerMusic Ah, sorry, I feel this was too unclear again, my comment wasn't directed to you personally but more of a general rant. I just was so astonished that someone confirmed the problem after all this time, thanks for that!
Hopefully it's helpful! I will say, to add one more data point to your decision making, I've now performed an expanded version of the live set in front of an audience twice, and it went really well both times in spite of the jank. Although it's up to you whether that's something you'd want to deal with.
I think combining two grooveboxes or sequencers will almost always be somehow problematic, eighter some devices are "late" as slave with pattern switching /program changes and it cuts off the first note in the sequenced pattern, or something similar, or audible parameter changes, esp with effects. I used Tracks and Mono Station, and it had the same mid-pattern switching problem on the Mono Station. That's how they work, i don't think the queing and "knowing" to start the next project with bar 1 is doable with midi/update. Maybe an option "always start project with first pattern of the selected chain" or something. So I sequenced everything with the Tracks and have no note data in the Mono Station. I don't use the Tracks synth engine, so synth 4 parts for external synths, and they don't go in the Tracks inputs, sidechain is programmed with lfos on synced synths if needed. master filter is for drums only, that has pros and cons. works well, Scenes are the best innovation of the Tracks, wish they could be coloured like projects. Another major flaw is the inability to forward midi to outputs (like digitakt and others can), so no playing/recording into the sequencer with a midi keyboard. external midi merger out/thru is a workaround. A minor annoyance is no quick shifting though bars/patterns if you just want to edit a note or note length etc. Whatever is input into the Rhythm is also a bit muffled, in addition to the delay. Tracks inputs are somehow better/different. Anyway only one master sequencer for me ever, no note data on slaved devices.
I just hooked both of these up myself and arrived at the same conclusion: for two devices whose main appeal is ease of use, they sure are a bit janky to use together when switching projects. In some ways, I think using a Launchpad Pro (with it's built in Circuit-style sequencer) is a better way of getting that workflow into a more complex/capable setup. Hopefully though, your conversations will trigger a firmware update that'll fix this stuff. If that happens, this will be a killer live setup.
I'm using the Circuit-Rhythm as the brain. I have it set to send out start/stop and clock midi signals only.The midi-out on the Circuit-Rhythm and Arturia-Keystep are running into a midi-merger, which runs into the the Circuit-Tracks midi-in.The Circuit Tracks midi-out and midi-thru are running into another midi-merger, which then sends midi data from the Circuit Tracks into the Korg Wavestate and Arturia Microfreak. The audio outputs from the Wavestate and Microfreak are running into the Circuit-Tracks audio inputs, and the Circuit-Tracks audio outputs are running into the Circuit-Rhythm audio inputs. The Circuit-Rhythm audio outputs are running into some old Fostex studio monitors I had laying around. So, hitting play and pause on the Circuit-Rhythm starts and stops the Circuit-Tracks, and the tempo on the Circuit-Rhythm controls the tempo on the Circuit-Tracks, including the external synths connected to the Circuit-Tracks. I can use the Arturia-Keystep to play and record both synth engines on the Circuit-Tracks. I can also use the Arturia-Keystep to play the Microfreak and Wavestate through the Circuit-Tracks, and record what I'm playing on those synths onto the Circuit-Tracks midi-tracks in real time.The grid effects on the circuit Rhythm can be applied to the entire mix, since it's controlling the clock.
I’ll only connect them to sync start/stop then adjust the swing, often though I’ll have one at half the tempo of the other, and just manually start/stop them, they are too unstable, they are running separate audio to a mixer and I’m piping stuff I want to mangle thru the CR. CT is chords, soft synths and percussions. They make decent midi controller/sequencers.
I love Novations workflow, but I feel I’ve outgrown these devices. I wish they would combine, upgrade these devices. I’m currently looking at a Polyend Play + but I’m not sure how intuitive the workflow is.
Ran into a few of these figuring out a set up with these two as well . My use case was different as I was using them to trigger external synths mostly but the pattern sync was definitely a disappointment. Another thing I’ve asked Novation about is making components ports for iOS and Android because having access to see the parameters of the built in synths would be very welcomed amongst other on the go librarian functions as well , but as met with a kind of deference about “ adding a screen “ to a “ dawless” device smh .
I think buffering the audio is no option due to the limitations of the underlying architecture, but maybe a „switch“ to delay sequenced midi events to the internal instruments would be a solution. Only sync information has to be on time. Or with external gear: Support of „Local Off“ would be required and route the events through a RK-002 with proper software from midi out back to midi in on the circuit…
Edit: I forgot you could edit grid fx in components so I went there and it didn't solve my problem but it did give me a better way to frame my question: how the hell is it possible that there's no ramp up LFO?! Hey Gabe, a little off topic but I've been doing a lot of live stuff on the Rhythm lately and I have a question. The settings for the auto filter grid fx are really confusing. Is there a way to make it so that it does an "ascending" filter sweep for buildups? (as in, sweeping the cutoff from low to high?) All I can figure out how to make it do is a follow a sine LFO so its constantly modulating, or an auto "descending" sweep. And it's impossible to keep track of where the LFO is in order to trigger a buildup whenever you want it in the performance. Surely I have to be missing something.
I think the ProjectSwitching Problem is "ByDesign". If you would have 6 bars running in one Project, and on the other device, the Project has 8 bars looping, the devices get out of sync when one is not forced to start "immediately" controlled by the main. (or did i get the problem wrong?)
Thanx Gabe! Very informative! I have both units. But there are used in different locations for different projects. Tracks is my studio brain. Rhythm is my backpack travel device. For a sidechain effect - what if you send a midi notes of kick drum from Rhythm to Tracks (and keep other parts on different midi channels) - will the midi in for the kick drum trigger the side chain or it must be printed in the sequence?
I feel that, I've had both since they came out and didn't bother combining them until I had this specific project in mind. That might work, but you might end up triggering other notes on other tracks as well, which in this case, I didn't want.
The delay issue is probably caused by the ADC at the line input. There's nothing you can do on the software side about that. But: If a Circuit Rhythm/Tracks recognizes an input source it could delay the internal sources by the ADC delay time and thus reduce or entirely eliminate the timing difference. However this could cause other issues (Audio is delayed to the LED changes or manual pad triggering) and WILL cause other issues (if you have other gear linked via midi and don't route audio through the circuit but through an external mixer because no free ports on the circuit, you have delayed audio). Not sure which one would be the best solution here...
novation could add a toggle for delay compensation in the settings menu for each input depending on the use case. my setup has 3 synths going into the circuit (2 on the same midi channel) and having no latency would really make it perfect. but live performance would cause issues yeah.
Using these for a live setup is my plan as well. My issue is loops not starting on time on the Rhythm. Its frustrating as hell. They start just a little too slow, even if the loop was loaded on at the projects tempo, then catch up. Big no go for live or even just recording a track to a DAW.
This might be self explanatory but I wonder what would happen if you went with two CTs or two CRs vs trying to combine the two like you did here. Would there be other quirks or less?
had the tracks sold it wanted to try the rhythm, but just re bought the tracks again partially because i have sound packs for it already purchased and it still seems the better fit for a larger setup. And i like it's self contained but this video makes me think i made the right choice. I thought they were easy to integrate with each other myself no one ever mentioned setup between the 2 being finicky. Do you have any sound packs ya did for the tracks ? i wonder for testing purposes if it makes any difference if Tracks the master and i avoided a mixer for ever but it inevitable a recommendation is the bastl bestie for no input feedback loop.
@@GabeMillerMusicI was also one of the Circuit Pro hopefuls. I think Yamaha showed that sampling and synths in one groove box is an interesting combination. I think a larger, Launchpad pro size, combining the Tracks and Rhythm would solve a lot of our issues we have discussed in this video. I'd actually still also advocate more midi control options though. Because with a Circuit Pro, it might be nice to control, say the grid effects via a launchpad, which would then leave a hand free for filter and scene changing duties. This combined device, would also negate the issues we are all having with the forced use of Project switching to sync the Tracks and Rhythm patterns/scenes.
How about pattern chaining? So you only do 1 bar long pattern but you connect them. then you can always see where the track is. I know the problem from the “Launchpad Pro MK3”. sorry for my google translate english XD
You're good! Pattern chaining can be used to make a longer musical section, but I've had it drop me into the middle of a pattern chain when switching projects before. It's not supposed to do that, but it does. My scenes method makes the setup work pretty well though
Did i understand correctly that the only purpose of tracks in this setup is 2 synths tracks and eventual stereo one shots because your song requires more than 8 tracks of sound? Sounds like less than 50% of tracks is usable in this setup.
That's pretty much what's going on. I'm using the synth tracks, and occasionally all four drum tracks for various percussion. So the only tracks I don't use are the midi tracks. I don't think it underutilizes the Tracks, since a lot of the songs and moments in my live set can't exist without it, but it's definitely overshadowed by the Rhythm. For a synthwave set, it would probably be the opposite, with the Tracks being the primary device.
I just plug both into my interface (Scarlett 8i6), which avoids the latency issue. What is strange is that tracks and rhythm output different volumes. It would also be nice if there was an option to match scene changes.
I can hear the delay, but I'm not really bothered by it. I've never been a stickler for that kind of thing. Some people (many drummers), can hear very small offsets and it drives them nuts, tho. I'm that way with some visual things.
Input monitoring might be turned off. If you hit the sample record button, one of the pads will let you toggle between hearing and not hearing the input.
Latency of input channels... This is crap why I'm selling this device. Sorry, but this is not serious at all and is not suitable for professional use!!!
So, what he is saying is, don't bother buying the Circuit Rhythm. Understood. I does go for cheaper on eBay. I had a chance to get one at $150, but passed on it.
It depends on what you're trying to do. The Rhythm was great for this style of music, so I don't not recommend it. At the same time, the goal is not to convince you on any particular piece of gear, but help you find what works for you.
As Gabe mentions here, he's raised this with us and rest assured, we're already looking into it. We understand that reliable transitions are key, and these issues are making that a bit tricky. Hang tight! We'll keep you all updated with more concrete info as soon as we have it 😊👍
@NovationTV this is a great response. I love the Circuit workflow (have both the Rhythm, Tracks, and a Mono Station), but I ran into these exact issues myself about 2 months ago. Please improve project sync, audio latency, and add *scene* sync too (PLEASE - scenes are great; manually syncing them is a PITA)
Pitchbend would be nice too:)
For awareness about another issue: when linking the Rhythm with other gear and using MIDI sync of tempo. If the Rhythm is RECEIVING tempo sync from another gear (be that a Tracks), so the Rhythm is kinda the slave in the set, and you try to record sample thru the external audio input on the Rhythm (say you have a chord progression on the Tracks and you wanna make an 1bar sample of it), the Rhythm will not take the synced tempo for the recording. Therefore if Tracks has 140bpm set as Tempo, the Rhythm will - strangely - not use that to calc the lenght of the recording but rather it will take it's 'last used internal Tempo', and the sample will be cut short or let run too long. To overcome this, you would have to temporarily disable the Rhythm receiving MIDI CC messages, so that the tempo will turn back to manual, and then you should set the same tempo on the Rhythm as it is on your Tracks, and then do the fixed lenght sampling.... OFC if you swap the master-slave so that your Rhythm is the master (sends MIDI out to the slave) then it will also have control over the Tempo, and in that setup the fixed lenght recording will also be correct. But sometimes you may want your Tracks be the 'control master' that sends out midi cc and control messages to other gear, including the Rhythm.
Yeah scene sync would be a game changer for me. @@SoundsAwful
It's so awesome that you show the intention to address and fix those bugs even in those "old" products. This is what's make them worth buying even today.
(and that you guys were able to fix my usb midi connection issue even thou linux is not an supported OS for you. I have not forget that one!)
I find a lot of the major companies are designing products that at first glance have great features, but the moment you start to try to actually put them into practice in a high level performance as you've done here, they completely fall apart and we're forced to brute force our way into using the devices as they're expected to be used.
Novation should be able to definitively say whether the the project switching issue is a feature or a bug. You should also be compensated for your time in essentially doing quality/feature testing that they should have done years ago. Great work!
If Taetro is being critical of Novation, that is a sign they should probably listen. I, along with a lot of other folks, am a Novation fanboy because of Taetro.
😎 I have both devices and I’m also building a self contained live setup with them. I was sold by the “Power Combo” as Novation promised on their Live with Calc videos. I hope they fix this for the community!! I still think those devices are awesome and have hope that they grow through the years like the OG Circuit did.
If I remember correctly I didn’t have Gabe’s problem when using the CT as the master for the CR. I’ve only done one live set with them so that might be the way to go.
@@vznquest thanks bro! That might solve it!!
It's amazing how long this problem existed before finding out. These devices have been on the market for way too long.
I feel this in my soul. Can't count how many times I've started using something only to quickly hit a major issue that no one else seems to have.
Fixing these "bugs" would be really nice. Speaking as an owner of both Circuits.
And it would be even more incredible if Novation would come up with an update that would actually make these devices sing when connected together 🎉
I only just realised that the grid effect can process live audio…. whoohoooo 🎉 that’s a bonus for other gear. Cheers.
I think I have the solution to the patterns not lining up, if I understand the problem correctly. So on a single device, when you have patterns (or pattern chains) of different lengths and you change scene, it'll cue and change when the next pattern to finish does so. If you are running a single drum pattern with a two-chain bass pattern then it matters a great deal when you cue the scene change. If you cue it while in the second of the two bass patterns, everything works like you'd expect. But if you cue it while in the first of the two bass patterns, the drum single pattern will finish and the cue will trigger halfway through your bassline.
But on a single device the only effect is that your bass got cut off, probably the rhythm in your song felt really off for a bit, but they stay in alignment because everything started at the beginning of the next scene. My fix for this has been to simply duplicate the drum pattern so that all patterns and pattern chains take the same amount of time to finish so I can cue a change whenever.
The problem with the way the project change is sent is that not only does all the above happen, the Tracks jumps programs in the middle of it's pattern chain and then keeps that in mind going forward. And as you've said, you may not notice it until much later, but at some point the different pattern lengths of different parts will be misaligned.
For now, assuming you have the pattern space, you can just make all patterns/chains the same length of time (at least on the Rhythm) as the longest pattern in the project (especially if that longest pattern is on the Tracks!). Then the Rhythm will jump only when all the parts are equally ready to move on.
Of course, that might cause the performer issues if they've muted the long melodic pattern and are trying to do some transition work (filter/tempo/etc) into what they think is cued, only to be stuck waiting another two bars from when the planned the big drop.
I'd have to test it, but I think that could work, assuming there's not some bug acting as a confounding factor. It would kill the ability to do small fills and such, but regardless, thanks for thinking that through.
@@GabeMillerMusic No problem! It sounded really familiar when you were describing it, and I literally received my Rhythm (to add to my Tracks) two days ago so I could test my theory! I'd be super curious if there is indeed another bug/factor or not if you happen to follow up!
I have a circuit tracks that I love. I grabbed a rhythm on crazy sale for $180 but haven't gotten around to trying it out with the tracks. Thanks for this!
Great to see these two hooked up together . Your the best performer to figure the creases out 👍🔥 top work
I had been planning to buy Circuit Rhythm for a week. I wanted to connect it to Tracks. Some cosmic force sent your warning and I saved money and avoided frustration. Thank you!
Electronica…getting complicated…Rock n Roll man Rock n Roll 🎸🎶‼️
Been waiting for that vid 🎉
Great video as always and especially the deep dive in the quirks. I have both Tracks and Rhythm. Got them hoping for a self-contained dawless power-combo as advertised. Especially after seeing some Novation videos. Of course they were well made an useful, but I think your video is great in showing room for improvement, especially if someone is such a circuit power user, like you. I really hope that Novation can fix these things ASAP. Project starting out of sync seems to me like a bug that could be easily addresed by some firmware update.
Thank you for your videos, especially pertaining to these devices. This explains many issues I’ve experienced with these 2. Unfortunately they don’t work sending audio through each other, there’s always a show stopping latency issues and syncing issues. The sound is noticeably out of sync when beats are stacked.
Incredible series of videos. Great music in the first, and fantastic overview in the second. I ran into these same issues myself about 2 months ago. I managed to complete my track, but it was much more frustrating than I anticipated. Most importantly though, thank you for taking the time to contact, and work with Novation support, and for having enough clout to get their attention. Hopefully something is done because the Circuits are otherwise superb devices.
Thanks so much! Hopefully they can get something figured out. In the meantime, I've got one more in this series coming next week about the production/layering/song structure side of things.
This seems bizarrely complicated for two very similar devices from the same company that really look like they should work together seamlessly.
Which they said would work together seamlessly*
I have not tried this, but looking at the midi programming references for both Circuits there is program change for both queued and instant project switching with the same midi value on both units. You could add a smallish programable midi controller to you setup to handle project changes and just send PMG 64-127 to both units on channel 16. That should initiate a queued switch on both at the same time. The midi routing might be tricky, but I think it would work. I can't test because I only have the Tracks so far, but this video got me thinking about picking up the Rhythm for something similar to this.
Thanks Gabe
I was going to get a tracks, but this made me so happy that I decided to go with the SP 404
I SO feel this frustration. Months ago I went to battle syncing the Electribe Sampler 2 with a MicroKorg. I eventually got them synced but it was after ordering a MIDI Thru Filter Box from Germany then realizing that it was more a hindrance than help, finally messing with the MicroKorg slave settings (which are displayed as alien type circles) to finally get the damn thing to play when the Electribe told it to play and shut up when the Electribe told it to shut up. Next of course will be the battle in attempting a pitch bend on the MicroKorg and having the Electribe control that. Sometimes it seems more work to make it work than being creative. I look at the roadblock before me and I don't feel inspired anymore. It just looks like frustration.
It can definitely kill a creative streak. In this case, I was super determined to figure it out, but it easily could have gone differently. That's kinda why I ended up working with a setup that was functional but a bit janky, rather than optimal
17:30 the "fake" kick to trigger side chain is a classic move. It allows you to kill the real kick and still have the synths pumping, keeping your vibe for breakdowns.
Yup. I usually prefer to have stuff not pumping during breakdowns, but it absolutely works for that.
I've been owning Rhythm and had a lot of fun until I realized that I feel limited to samples and it would be great to have a synth in the setup. So I thought about buying Tracks literally for this purpose. But I really wanted to make me sure that it will work. And I would say that those are minor issues! Thanks a lot for your efforts, absolutely amazing stuff!
I’ve also tried combining them, and had some challenges. So far my best result is just sending both through my TX-6 mixer, matching the tempo and try to tigger them manually in time. 😅 adding a sync in was a missed opportunity.
This video dropping yesterday was crazy timing, as my 2nd hand Rhythm literally arrived 4 hours before this video went live!
The Rhythm seemed the perfect fit for my dawless workflow as the Tracks is my brain. Over Christmas there were a few good offers of sales on new Circuit Rhythms and i held back buying new, as i had a sneaky suspicion about the midi timing of these devices. I have been building a template, over the same Christmas break, in Ableton to record my JAMuary sessions from Tracks into Ableton and i had already noticed weird midi latency timing issues when recording there. So figured if i buy 2nd hand, i can sell on again, and possibly give up and just go and buy a Digitakt to use as my brain!
Seems like this video has shown my suspicions to be true, but I'll start testing later and comment back.
Good luck! I have no idea how setup with Digitakt as a secondary would work, but hopefully this gets you going in a helpful direction for combining the Circuits.
@14:10 I told everyone for years that there's a significant and noticeable amount of latency on the inputs of either the Tracks or the Rhythm and absolutely noone believed me? I even proved it with audio examples where you clearly could hear the same as you showed us here, everyone totally ignored it?
I went back and checked, and your comment about the latency two years ago is one of the things that made me pay attention to it. I mentioned it a little over a year ago in an updated review and in various other places, so I've been on that for a while. So no, I definitely didn't ignore it, although I didn't find it to be as much of a problem until I started piping in percussive elements.
@@GabeMillerMusic Ah, sorry, I feel this was too unclear again, my comment wasn't directed to you personally but more of a general rant. I just was so astonished that someone confirmed the problem after all this time, thanks for that!
Yo this one here around 630 is a keeper! It is dark and lovely, but gots the beat that drives it forward. Really love the whole sound here a lot.
6:00 onward, im sorry.
All good, I know what you mean. Glad you dig it!
Thanks for sharing this. I almost bought a Rhythm as it seemed like a great combo, but I'll just wait for some bug fixes. 😐
Hopefully it's helpful! I will say, to add one more data point to your decision making, I've now performed an expanded version of the live set in front of an audience twice, and it went really well both times in spite of the jank. Although it's up to you whether that's something you'd want to deal with.
Great vid Gabe!
I think combining two grooveboxes or sequencers will almost always be somehow problematic, eighter some devices are "late" as slave with pattern switching /program changes and it cuts off the first note in the sequenced pattern, or something similar, or audible parameter changes, esp with effects. I used Tracks and Mono Station, and it had the same mid-pattern switching problem on the Mono Station. That's how they work, i don't think the queing and "knowing" to start the next project with bar 1 is doable with midi/update. Maybe an option "always start project with first pattern of the selected chain" or something. So I sequenced everything with the Tracks and have no note data in the Mono Station. I don't use the Tracks synth engine, so synth 4 parts for external synths, and they don't go in the Tracks inputs, sidechain is programmed with lfos on synced synths if needed. master filter is for drums only, that has pros and cons. works well, Scenes are the best innovation of the Tracks, wish they could be coloured like projects. Another major flaw is the inability to forward midi to outputs (like digitakt and others can), so no playing/recording into the sequencer with a midi keyboard. external midi merger out/thru is a workaround. A minor annoyance is no quick shifting though bars/patterns if you just want to edit a note or note length etc. Whatever is input into the Rhythm is also a bit muffled, in addition to the delay. Tracks inputs are somehow better/different. Anyway only one master sequencer for me ever, no note data on slaved devices.
I just hooked both of these up myself and arrived at the same conclusion: for two devices whose main appeal is ease of use, they sure are a bit janky to use together when switching projects. In some ways, I think using a Launchpad Pro (with it's built in Circuit-style sequencer) is a better way of getting that workflow into a more complex/capable setup. Hopefully though, your conversations will trigger a firmware update that'll fix this stuff. If that happens, this will be a killer live setup.
I'm using the Circuit-Rhythm as the brain. I have it set to send out start/stop and clock midi signals only.The midi-out on the Circuit-Rhythm and Arturia-Keystep are running into a midi-merger, which runs into the the Circuit-Tracks midi-in.The Circuit Tracks midi-out and midi-thru are running into another midi-merger, which then sends midi data from the Circuit Tracks into the Korg Wavestate and Arturia Microfreak. The audio outputs from the Wavestate and Microfreak are running into the Circuit-Tracks audio inputs, and the Circuit-Tracks audio outputs are running into the Circuit-Rhythm audio inputs. The Circuit-Rhythm audio outputs are running into some old Fostex studio monitors I had laying around.
So, hitting play and pause on the Circuit-Rhythm starts and stops the Circuit-Tracks, and the tempo on the Circuit-Rhythm controls the tempo on the Circuit-Tracks, including the external synths connected to the Circuit-Tracks. I can use the Arturia-Keystep to play and record both synth engines on the Circuit-Tracks. I can also use the Arturia-Keystep to play the Microfreak and Wavestate through the Circuit-Tracks, and record what I'm playing on those synths onto the Circuit-Tracks midi-tracks in real time.The grid effects on the circuit Rhythm can be applied to the entire mix, since it's controlling the clock.
Why you need the second midi merger for the external synths? How about latency? Cheers!
I’ll only connect them to sync start/stop then adjust the swing, often though I’ll have one at half the tempo of the other, and just manually start/stop them, they are too unstable,
they are running separate audio to a mixer and I’m piping stuff I want to mangle thru the CR. CT is chords, soft synths and percussions. They make decent midi controller/sequencers.
I love Novations workflow, but I feel I’ve outgrown these devices. I wish they would combine, upgrade these devices. I’m currently looking at a Polyend Play + but I’m not sure how intuitive the workflow is.
12:11 "So, anytime I have some sort of breakdown, I have to do that" is a pretty sad indictment of mental health services in Gabe's country.
Great video. It does sound good but also a bit like a lot of work. You would imagine that the two devices should interact seamlessly.
You saved me $200+ dollars from adding the Rhythm alongside the tracks. Hopefully there is a fix. Can use some of that savings for a t-shirt.
Ran into a few of these figuring out a set up with these two as well . My use case was different as I was using them to trigger external synths mostly but the pattern sync was definitely a disappointment. Another thing I’ve asked Novation about is making components ports for iOS and Android because having access to see the parameters of the built in synths would be very welcomed amongst other on the go librarian functions as well , but as met with a kind of deference about “ adding a screen “ to a “ dawless” device smh .
it's a shame that there isn't some kind of latency compensation, like, offset the sounds triggered within the Rhythm by 5ms or whatever the latency is
I think buffering the audio is no option due to the limitations of the underlying architecture, but maybe a „switch“ to delay sequenced midi events to the internal instruments would be a solution. Only sync information has to be on time. Or with external gear: Support of „Local Off“ would be required and route the events through a RK-002 with proper software from midi out back to midi in on the circuit…
Need novation to make the megacircuit with 16 columns for 4 synth tracks, 4 midi tracks, and 8 sample tracks
Edit: I forgot you could edit grid fx in components so I went there and it didn't solve my problem but it did give me a better way to frame my question: how the hell is it possible that there's no ramp up LFO?!
Hey Gabe, a little off topic but I've been doing a lot of live stuff on the Rhythm lately and I have a question. The settings for the auto filter grid fx are really confusing. Is there a way to make it so that it does an "ascending" filter sweep for buildups? (as in, sweeping the cutoff from low to high?) All I can figure out how to make it do is a follow a sine LFO so its constantly modulating, or an auto "descending" sweep. And it's impossible to keep track of where the LFO is in order to trigger a buildup whenever you want it in the performance. Surely I have to be missing something.
I think the ProjectSwitching Problem is "ByDesign". If you would have 6 bars running in one Project, and on the other device, the Project has 8 bars looping, the devices get out of sync when one is not forced to start "immediately" controlled by the main. (or did i get the problem wrong?)
Thanx Gabe! Very informative! I have both units. But there are used in different locations for different projects.
Tracks is my studio brain. Rhythm is my backpack travel device.
For a sidechain effect - what if you send a midi notes of kick drum from Rhythm to Tracks (and keep other parts on different midi channels) - will the midi in for the kick drum trigger the side chain or it must be printed in the sequence?
I feel that, I've had both since they came out and didn't bother combining them until I had this specific project in mind.
That might work, but you might end up triggering other notes on other tracks as well, which in this case, I didn't want.
The delay issue is probably caused by the ADC at the line input. There's nothing you can do on the software side about that. But: If a Circuit Rhythm/Tracks recognizes an input source it could delay the internal sources by the ADC delay time and thus reduce or entirely eliminate the timing difference. However this could cause other issues (Audio is delayed to the LED changes or manual pad triggering) and WILL cause other issues (if you have other gear linked via midi and don't route audio through the circuit but through an external mixer because no free ports on the circuit, you have delayed audio). Not sure which one would be the best solution here...
This really sucks... It seems to make the audio routing feature completely pointless and not fit for what its intended purpose was.
novation could add a toggle for delay compensation in the settings menu for each input depending on the use case. my setup has 3 synths going into the circuit (2 on the same midi channel) and having no latency would really make it perfect. but live performance would cause issues yeah.
Using these for a live setup is my plan as well. My issue is loops not starting on time on the Rhythm. Its frustrating as hell. They start just a little too slow, even if the loop was loaded on at the projects tempo, then catch up. Big no go for live or even just recording a track to a DAW.
This might be self explanatory but I wonder what would happen if you went with two CTs or two CRs vs trying to combine the two like you did here. Would there be other quirks or less?
I'm not sure about the project switching bug, but for everything else, I think there would probably be pretty much the exact same amount of quirks
had the tracks sold it wanted to try the rhythm, but just re bought the tracks again partially because i have sound packs for it already purchased and it still seems the better fit for a larger setup. And i like it's self contained but this video makes me think i made the right choice. I thought they were easy to integrate with each other myself no one ever mentioned setup between the 2 being finicky. Do you have any sound packs ya did for the tracks ? i wonder for testing purposes if it makes any difference if Tracks the master and i avoided a mixer for ever but it inevitable a recommendation is the bastl bestie for no input feedback loop.
side note i was hoping for a circuit pro at namm combining both devices
I haven't made any synth packs for the Tracks, just samples. But same, still hoping for a Circuit Pro, but I'm not holding my breath.
i used your electribe 2 pack and will get the one shot sample pack for the tracks ty @@GabeMillerMusic
@@GabeMillerMusicI was also one of the Circuit Pro hopefuls. I think Yamaha showed that sampling and synths in one groove box is an interesting combination. I think a larger, Launchpad pro size, combining the Tracks and Rhythm would solve a lot of our issues we have discussed in this video. I'd actually still also advocate more midi control options though. Because with a Circuit Pro, it might be nice to control, say the grid effects via a launchpad, which would then leave a hand free for filter and scene changing duties. This combined device, would also negate the issues we are all having with the forced use of Project switching to sync the Tracks and Rhythm patterns/scenes.
How about a third circuit or some other sequencer with 2 midi outs (just for clock) driving both? It shouldn’t require a workaround though.
How about pattern chaining? So you only do 1 bar long pattern but you connect them. then you can always see where the track is. I know the problem from the “Launchpad Pro MK3”. sorry for my google translate english XD
You're good! Pattern chaining can be used to make a longer musical section, but I've had it drop me into the middle of a pattern chain when switching projects before. It's not supposed to do that, but it does. My scenes method makes the setup work pretty well though
Come on, Gabe! I just bought the Tracks. Now I have to buy a Rhythm? 😝
Haha only if you can deal with the jank!
Did i understand correctly that the only purpose of tracks in this setup is 2 synths tracks and eventual stereo one shots because your song requires more than 8 tracks of sound? Sounds like less than 50% of tracks is usable in this setup.
That's pretty much what's going on. I'm using the synth tracks, and occasionally all four drum tracks for various percussion. So the only tracks I don't use are the midi tracks. I don't think it underutilizes the Tracks, since a lot of the songs and moments in my live set can't exist without it, but it's definitely overshadowed by the Rhythm. For a synthwave set, it would probably be the opposite, with the Tracks being the primary device.
@@GabeMillerMusic thanks! appreciate you answering so fast and deep
I just plug both into my interface (Scarlett 8i6), which avoids the latency issue. What is strange is that tracks and rhythm output different volumes. It would also be nice if there was an option to match scene changes.
I noticed my Rhythm is aprox 50% quieter than the Tracks
I don't have either but still an interesting video. 👍
Is it just me or I think the timing mistakes sound ok!
I can hear the delay, but I'm not really bothered by it. I've never been a stickler for that kind of thing. Some people (many drummers), can hear very small offsets and it drives them nuts, tho. I'm that way with some visual things.
Oof thank you for sharing all this. Almost makes me want to move on from these little guys. Maybe keep the Tracks around as a sequencer.
I cant get any sound from my tracks via rhythm 😢
Input monitoring might be turned off. If you hit the sample record button, one of the pads will let you toggle between hearing and not hearing the input.
@@GabeMillerMusic thank you! 😁👍
I like these two boxes but traded mine for a better groove box that fit my setup.
So where's the link to the complete song?🤔
At the end of the video, in the description, or here:
th-cam.com/video/D52HOZktkWw/w-d-xo.html
Just one remark - this sound is not housy at all. It is pure trance. At least the beats you play at this video.
Latency of input channels... This is crap why I'm selling this device. Sorry, but this is not serious at all and is not suitable for professional use!!!
You really should get a mixer... 😅
But spend at least the amount of money, the cheapest Yamaha-mixer would cost - you would regret spending less...
Sounds like you have a good excuse to buy a mixer.
So, what he is saying is, don't bother buying the Circuit Rhythm. Understood. I does go for cheaper on eBay. I had a chance to get one at $150, but passed on it.
It depends on what you're trying to do. The Rhythm was great for this style of music, so I don't not recommend it. At the same time, the goal is not to convince you on any particular piece of gear, but help you find what works for you.