I am seeing this for the first time today. I don’t know how I missed this fantastic conversation. I can really relate to that feeling of distrust coupled with gratitude when discovering that ones allies are emerging from the right. I questioned myself for quite awhile as I began to emerge from the progressive social justice cult. While my values and politics have not changed, I now use critical thinking rather than blindly voting for my “team.” I feel betrayed by the progressives as they silence debate and name call those who have differing viewpoints. However, I am proud that LGB Alliance is standing up for children. I remember way back when NAMBLA (man/boy love) used to walk in the San Francisco pride parade. It was wise and right to kick them out. Once again we are on the right side of history.
'Bout 10 minutes in. I love that feeling when I realize I don't know anything about something and start learning. Never knew any of this stuff, still somehow I felt that the things I've been seeing about Stonewall were very inauthentic. I am not surprised by what I'm hearing!
What I find as strange (and annoying, tbh) as the deliberate co-option of the behaviour of lesbians including Stormé Delarverie's participation in the Stonewall riots is the relatively recent phenomenon of "transing" the dead. Of course, I'd already heard the assertions about Joan of Arc etc, but about a year ago, I was having a polite online conversation with someone I've never met or even seen a photo of (so I had no idea whether they were male or female) about literature during which I mentioned the writing of Patricia Highsmith. They seriously contended that she "was almost certainly trans". Patricia Highsmith, author of many psychological thrillers, including one of my favourite ever short story collections named _Little Tales Of Misogyny..._ I cannot even begin to understand what the motivations could be.
Ah yes, the way to get taken serously in the publishing world in the 1950s is to call yourself a woman! Haha. These people are so young they have no idea what it was like before for women.
Thank you both so much. Us lesbians & gays need all the help we can get.Us UK based lesbians have had enough,we can see where this is leading they won't shut us up.Great discussion
Wonderful and touching interview. I was listening while out walking and when Arty nearly started crying I was moved to tears myself. Without wanting to overstate things, that unguarded genuine emotional response is something I find lacking in nearly all discussions with excessively woke types, trans or otherwise. There's a performativity, to use a Butlerism, only a surface level of emotion, with surprisingly little sincerity. Not that they don't have it, but the ideology creates a shield where nothing truly sincere or deeper pokes through. Maintaining a pretense that the world is something other than what it is must cause havoc with one's ability to express genuine emotion. But I was immediately empathetic and felt the palpable heartbreak at the mere mention of losing friends to the AIDS epidemic. I remember the slogan "Silence = Death", which meant something back then. The current slogan "Silence = Violence" somehow feels like an insult to the legacy of gay activism. Please keep these interviews coming Arty. You're a marvelous host.
Thank you. This really means a lot to me. You make such an excellent point when you say "the ideology creates a shield where nothing truly sincere or deeper pokes through." Thank you so much for your words. xoxo
I too was moved by your understanding of the great losses we suffered during the aids epidemic. My friend who participated in the SF Gay Men’s Chorus, lost almost all of his friends within just a few years. The level of grief shared by this community is unspeakable. Remember the quilt project and how those panels could cover blocks....? and lesbians were there, helping. It was a very painful time. People were scared but still found the courage to fight back. Arty, you may be younger, but your courage is the stuff of change. You inspire me and have helped me to speak out too. I am supporting all efforts in the U.K. There are some amazing people over there doing extraordinary work. They will be a wonderful model for the world.
Excellent interview. Can I say that it's so refreshing to see people from Toronto speaking out! The political climate in southern Ontario has been hellish for years. I went to Meghan Murphy's talk in TO and the protesting crowd was *intense*. Glad to have found you on twitter.
The Google doodle of Marsha made me so angry (because I knew the truth) that I finally changed my default search engine from Google, to Duckduckgo. And haven't changed back. :3
Im greetin here, you set me off. i lost my wee brother in 1993 to aids, his partner mike died a year before him, i miss him. +Thanks for this, so interesting and true. xx
"Of course, we're all labelled as being conservative, because of who they are, but nobody's labeling them as being gay!" Excellent point, and I didn't know that about Abigail Shrier's publisher. It feels so weird to be characterized as "right wing" these days.
Great interview. Would love to see you interview Fred again. He has wonderful insight and the HISTORY is amazing. Hope he has time to write it all down.
My first time at pride parade in SF was the 2and or 3rd parade. I dont know if was called Pride. I dont recall how many, but it seemed to be about a thousand. Those marching and those watching were almost all LGB. 2 or 3 school buses took us out to GG park where we had a picnic. Very few photographers at that time. I should go check the facts...but I hesitate now, having heard this.
Thank you so much Arty for another fab conversation with a fascinating guest. I would love to see into the future and see if / how / when the tide truly turns on gender ideology. I wish I felt as confident as you that it will! It's so tied up in other forces, such as the genuine belief that its a vehicle for progressive social change, and the money being made in the medical industry, to name but 2.
What a wonderful interview! This is the first I have sen you and I really like your style. lol You know what I mean. I have subscribed! Yeah! Edit: Humm I looked on your main page for your twitter link with no luck. I'll see what I can figure out on my own but if you see this, a link would be great. Thank you.
back in 1994, in the divorce when my husband went through sex change surgery, so many of my lesbian friends told me they just found people like my ex spouse to still have straight male privilege mindset. They felt diminished, as I did, from the words that often came out of HER mouth.
Thanks for highlighting the truth of history. The transgender movement seems like "Gay 3.0" Fred is now treated like Fred Kameny who was the "old, respectable movement" and is facing all these self-centred, radical kids...
When you say ‘almost all those men that identify as trans are straight’, are you talking about trans men or trans women? I’m a trans man, and I date women, but I am still mistaken for a lesbian/sapphic woman as I am AFAB. The terminology in this is really confusing, because I for one don’t ‘identify as a man’, I am a man, just the same as any cis dude. As for the Stonewall riots, I’m in my mid twenties, so I wasn’t there so can’t comment. Whoever is right or wrong about who was trans and who was a drag Queen, surely the important thing is that everyone finds value in LGBT history? Why is it that one group or another has to exclude and be at centre stage? I’d recommend books by Halberstam, including Gaga Feminism and Female Masculinity as they explain things from the lesbian perspective really well, without stamping out and alienating trans men. I, for one, came out as a lesbian before I realised that I’m a trans man, so the lesbian community is my heart and home. Being thrown out because of gender dysphoria doesn’t seem right or fair. Changing rooms: It is extremely triggering for any lesbian (having been one myself; I am now a trans straight dude) to have to get changed in a space where there is assumed heteronormativity. In other words, making it normal to change in front of people who are of the same sex makes gays stick out like a sore thumb. Anyone who has been through PE at school and endured open changing rooms who is gay would know that. I don’t see how that trauma is a good thing for women who like women any more than it is for trans men and non-binary people. “Safe spaces”: there are no bodyguards outside public toilets and public changing rooms at the swimming pool and gym in the UK. This means that there is nothing preventing a predatory cis male walking into a gendered space and assaulting a woman. In fact, there have been several instances where people of both sexes have been raped regardless. In mixed changing rooms and bathrooms (gender neutral toilets and changing rooms, that is), there is at least a greater number of people who act as a deterrent to sexual predators/step in when a man or woman is about to be attacked. There is no evidence to suggest that segregated toilets and changing rooms are “safe spaces.” For that reason, the safety myth is irrelevant to the debate about gender inclusion.
I find your language fascinating, especially your line "lesbians (having been one myself)". Generally everyone agrees that it's impossible to conversion oneself out of homosexuality - it's something you're born with and cannot change. But here you are explicitly saying you're an ex-homosexual. A thing that most progressives insist is impossible. Interesting. If you don't mind my asking (and I mean this in all earnestness): what was it that made you no longer a lesbian? Was it a change of pronouns? The moment you began hormones? A surgical procedure? How did you exit lesbianhood and enter "heterosexuality"?
Wisdom, memories and teachings of the Elders! Thanks, Morty.
LBGAllianceUSA is So Needed!
This needs more views! Share this far and wide!
I am seeing this for the first time today. I don’t know how I missed this fantastic conversation.
I can really relate to that feeling of distrust coupled with gratitude when discovering that ones allies are emerging from the right. I questioned myself for quite awhile as I began to emerge from the progressive social justice cult. While my values and politics have not changed, I now use critical thinking rather than blindly voting for my “team.” I feel betrayed by the progressives as they silence debate and name call those who have differing viewpoints.
However, I am proud that LGB Alliance is standing up for children. I remember way back when NAMBLA (man/boy love) used to walk in the San Francisco pride parade. It was wise and right to kick them out. Once again we are on the right side of history.
Thanks for standing up for women’s rights! Love your work. ❤️
Thank you Arty. You made my day! Fred's contribution to LGB rights can never be overstated! More interviews with the legends of our time please.
'Bout 10 minutes in. I love that feeling when I realize I don't know anything about something and start learning. Never knew any of this stuff, still somehow I felt that the things I've been seeing about Stonewall were very inauthentic. I am not surprised by what I'm hearing!
What I find as strange (and annoying, tbh) as the deliberate co-option of the behaviour of lesbians including Stormé Delarverie's participation in the Stonewall riots is the relatively recent phenomenon of "transing" the dead.
Of course, I'd already heard the assertions about Joan of Arc etc, but about a year ago, I was having a polite online conversation with someone I've never met or even seen a photo of (so I had no idea whether they were male or female) about literature during which I mentioned the writing of Patricia Highsmith. They seriously contended that she "was almost certainly trans". Patricia Highsmith, author of many psychological thrillers, including one of my favourite ever short story collections named _Little Tales Of Misogyny..._ I cannot even begin to understand what the motivations could be.
Ah yes, the way to get taken serously in the publishing world in the 1950s is to call yourself a woman! Haha. These people are so young they have no idea what it was like before for women.
OMG Leave Patricia Highsmith alone! The Price of Salt was not a trans novel it was a lesbian novel. And a beautiful one.
Thank you both so much. Us lesbians & gays need all the help we can get.Us UK based lesbians have had enough,we can see where this is leading they won't shut us up.Great discussion
Wow, so illuminating. Thank you!
Someone needs to write an accurate documentary. It would be a best seller!
Wonderful and touching interview. I was listening while out walking and when Arty nearly started crying I was moved to tears myself. Without wanting to overstate things, that unguarded genuine emotional response is something I find lacking in nearly all discussions with excessively woke types, trans or otherwise. There's a performativity, to use a Butlerism, only a surface level of emotion, with surprisingly little sincerity. Not that they don't have it, but the ideology creates a shield where nothing truly sincere or deeper pokes through. Maintaining a pretense that the world is something other than what it is must cause havoc with one's ability to express genuine emotion. But I was immediately empathetic and felt the palpable heartbreak at the mere mention of losing friends to the AIDS epidemic. I remember the slogan "Silence = Death", which meant something back then. The current slogan "Silence = Violence" somehow feels like an insult to the legacy of gay activism. Please keep these interviews coming Arty. You're a marvelous host.
Thank you. This really means a lot to me. You make such an excellent point when you say "the ideology creates a shield where nothing truly sincere or deeper pokes through." Thank you so much for your words. xoxo
I too was moved by your understanding of the great losses we suffered during the aids epidemic. My friend who participated in the SF Gay Men’s Chorus, lost almost all of his friends within just a few years. The level of grief shared by this community is unspeakable.
Remember the quilt project and how those panels could cover blocks....? and lesbians were there, helping. It was a very painful time. People were scared but still found the courage to fight back. Arty, you may be younger, but your courage is the stuff of change. You inspire me and have helped me to speak out too. I am supporting all efforts in the U.K. There are some amazing people over there doing extraordinary work. They will be a wonderful model for the world.
Excellent interview. Can I say that it's so refreshing to see people from Toronto speaking out! The political climate in southern Ontario has been hellish for years. I went to Meghan Murphy's talk in TO and the protesting crowd was *intense*. Glad to have found you on twitter.
Thank you!!!
The Google doodle of Marsha made me so angry (because I knew the truth) that I finally changed my default search engine from Google, to Duckduckgo. And haven't changed back. :3
Im greetin here, you set me off. i lost my wee brother in 1993 to aids, his partner mike died a year before him, i miss him. +Thanks for this, so interesting and true. xx
Christine, I had no idea. xx
Fantastic Arty. I’m a huge fan of Fred Sargent. He’s really a wellspring of history, and wisdom. Xxxxxxxxx
"Of course, we're all labelled as being conservative, because of who they are, but nobody's labeling them as being gay!" Excellent point, and I didn't know that about Abigail Shrier's publisher. It feels so weird to be characterized as "right wing" these days.
Great interview. Would love to see you interview Fred again. He has wonderful insight and the HISTORY is amazing. Hope he has time to write it all down.
My first time at pride parade in SF was the 2and or 3rd parade. I dont know if was called Pride. I dont recall how many, but it seemed to be about a thousand. Those marching and those watching were almost all LGB. 2 or 3 school buses took us out to GG park where we had a picnic. Very few photographers at that time. I should go check the facts...but I hesitate now, having heard this.
Thank you!
what a fantastic informative interview- thank you
Thank you so much Arty for another fab conversation with a fascinating guest. I would love to see into the future and see if / how / when the tide truly turns on gender ideology. I wish I felt as confident as you that it will! It's so tied up in other forces, such as the genuine belief that its a vehicle for progressive social change, and the money being made in the medical industry, to name but 2.
Cheers gentlemen ! Have you viewed the short film " These are not our crimes" ? it is available here on youtube.
Fred is an amazing guy. You’re a really good interviewer Arty.
What a wonderful interview! This is the first I have sen you and I really like your style. lol You know what I mean. I have subscribed! Yeah! Edit: Humm I looked on your main page for your twitter link with no luck. I'll see what I can figure out on my own but if you see this, a link would be great. Thank you.
twitter.com/artymortyarty
back in 1994, in the divorce when my husband went through sex change surgery, so many of my lesbian friends told me they just found people like my ex spouse to still have straight male privilege mindset. They felt diminished, as I did, from the words that often came out of HER mouth.
Fred is truly legendary
2:10 rewriting of LGB history!
5:24 Marsha Johnson was not trans. He was a drag queen.
I thought of Fred today. I was assaulted by a trans activist earlier.
I want to ask Fred if my great uncle was there.
Oh Arty, the het men claiming to be lesbian cheer we’re here and we are your lesbians.
BTW: was the murder suspect/offender mentioned by Fred at about 48 minutes male or female? Just asking for clarity. Cheers!
Thanks for highlighting the truth of history. The transgender movement seems like "Gay 3.0" Fred is now treated like Fred Kameny who was the "old, respectable movement" and is facing all these self-centred, radical kids...
When you say ‘almost all those men that identify as trans are straight’, are you talking about trans men or trans women? I’m a trans man, and I date women, but I am still mistaken for a lesbian/sapphic woman as I am AFAB. The terminology in this is really confusing, because I for one don’t ‘identify as a man’, I am a man, just the same as any cis dude.
As for the Stonewall riots, I’m in my mid twenties, so I wasn’t there so can’t comment. Whoever is right or wrong about who was trans and who was a drag Queen, surely the important thing is that everyone finds value in LGBT history? Why is it that one group or another has to exclude and be at centre stage?
I’d recommend books by Halberstam, including Gaga Feminism and Female Masculinity as they explain things from the lesbian perspective really well, without stamping out and alienating trans men. I, for one, came out as a lesbian before I realised that I’m a trans man, so the lesbian community is my heart and home. Being thrown out because of gender dysphoria doesn’t seem right or fair.
Changing rooms: It is extremely triggering for any lesbian (having been one myself; I am now a trans straight dude) to have to get changed in a space where there is assumed heteronormativity. In other words, making it normal to change in front of people who are of the same sex makes gays stick out like a sore thumb. Anyone who has been through PE at school and endured open changing rooms who is gay would know that. I don’t see how that trauma is a good thing for women who like women any more than it is for trans men and non-binary people.
“Safe spaces”: there are no bodyguards outside public toilets and public changing rooms at the swimming pool and gym in the UK. This means that there is nothing preventing a predatory cis male walking into a gendered space and assaulting a woman. In fact, there have been several instances where people of both sexes have been raped regardless. In mixed changing rooms and bathrooms (gender neutral toilets and changing rooms, that is), there is at least a greater number of people who act as a deterrent to sexual predators/step in when a man or woman is about to be attacked. There is no evidence to suggest that segregated toilets and changing rooms are “safe spaces.” For that reason, the safety myth is irrelevant to the debate about gender inclusion.
I find your language fascinating, especially your line "lesbians (having been one myself)". Generally everyone agrees that it's impossible to conversion oneself out of homosexuality - it's something you're born with and cannot change. But here you are explicitly saying you're an ex-homosexual. A thing that most progressives insist is impossible. Interesting. If you don't mind my asking (and I mean this in all earnestness): what was it that made you no longer a lesbian? Was it a change of pronouns? The moment you began hormones? A surgical procedure? How did you exit lesbianhood and enter "heterosexuality"?