TTA Podcast 95 - Get Them While They're Young
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 ส.ค. 2024
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Religion is unapologetic in its targeting of children, seeking to capture the minds of our youngest and most impressionable and mold them into their own theological cookie cutters. Seth Andrews' video of the same name addresses this issue briefly.
In this show, we explore many of the tactics used by Christianity and other religions to attract children, to indoctrinate them and to brand them with specific worldviews.
We also speak with Edwin Kagin, National Legal Director for American Atheists and founder of Camp Quest, a secular camp that provides a superstition-free alternative for kids and their parents.
LINKS:
Sophia Investigates the Good News Club
• Sophia Investigates Th...
Camp Quest
www.campquest.org
What little religious beliefs I had were destroyed by my grandma constantly telling me to think for myself.Though she was religious she was not a hateful person and encouraged critical thinking. Thanks again grandma😢
I was raised in a severely indoctrinating environment. My parents conducted family worship morning and evening, homeschooled my brother and I, limited our contact with neighbor kids and cut us off from any cultural influences: books, tv, radio, etc. I happen to be an extremely intelligent person and I cannot tell you the mental anguish I suffered in this environment. I spent the first 20 years of my life thinking "there is something really wrong here", but not knowing any alternatives.
Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?" Priest: "No, not if you did not know." Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"
-Annie Dillard
Never be ashamed of not learning early in life. I was 55 when I became aware of the evidence that just broke my steel shelf. Just so much to gloss over and claim that we know. When you first realize, you can experience multiple moods.
Peace out and read, actually READ with a clear mind.
The truth does actually set you free 😊
The good thing is that, while we're not exactly in the position to do any direct teaching (assuming we're both respectful of the parents' roles), we are certainly in positions of influence. When the children ask questions, we can provide honest answers - even if those answers directly contradict the poison which is being pumped into their minds. We can always plant seeds of doubt from a distance.
I regret that I was never able to attend a Camp Quest summer camp, as it wasn't available in Tennessee when I was younger. As a lifelong atheist, I often felt isolated and even ostracized in deeply-religious East Tennessee, where there's a church on seemingly every block, so this summer camp would have been a huge boost to my self-esteem and my academic career.
I am happy to say that I found out that Camp Quest has a location in my former home city of Knoxville called "Camp Quest Smoky Mountains". I would have loved the experience had it been available back then, and I'm happy that atheist kids in the region now have a summer camp where they are free to ask, question, learn, explore, and create without the cloud of Christian theology (especially the threat of hell) hanging over them.
My parents are conservative Lutheran and I grew up in a house where we went to church every Sunday, prayed at every meal, prayed before bed, were encouraged to read the Bible, went to Sunday school and VBS, volunteered in the Church, listened to Christian music, watched Christian movies, and read Christian books. I wasn't even allowed to go to church with my friends because their doctrine was different from ours. My whole life revolved around the church. It was a trapping bubble.
It was an amazing podcast. Thank you Seth for reading my letter. :)
My town here in the UK: The church was out in force, handing out leaflets for 'Children Workshops'. They were giving out a free cake and cup of chocolate to children in exchange for them taking one. The picture on the front was of a guy farming with a dinosaur pulling a plow.
I think you get the picture. Suffice to say: My son got two free cakes, and the leaflets take pride of place in my recycling bin.
22:00 - And it doesn't even strike him that when anyone says "2000 years ago Jesus died for our sins" or whatever, that you should ask "Were you THERE!?"
Of course not, because every christian has a hotline to skydaddy so they don't need to have been there, personal conviction is enough. (I hope you notice my sarcasm.)
Excellent as usual, sir. People like you are helping to secure a future of thinking human beings that care about achieving progress as a species.
Often, when I want an afternoon nap but can't sleep, I put on this podcast. This voice is evidence for the existence of a god.
Has "Answers In Genesis" been listed as a hate group yet? Their abuse of the trust and openness of children and willfully ignorant adults is appalling. When can we send Ken Ham back to Australia? Sorry Aussies ;)
As much as I despise AIG, It's not a hate group, but it is a group that spreads lies and misinformation. It is not a hate crime, It is just plain fraud.
I was born in 1982 and grew up in Hungary. I was in 3rd grade, when after the recent fall of communism, the school offered religious studies as an afternoon class. My mum of course said no. I was 14, in my 9th grade in high school, when I first opened a Bible. We learned about it as a piece of literature, not as truth, even though our teacher was religious. I think it is important to know the stories of the bible, but so is Greek and Roman mythology. To me, it was always just a book of myths.
I just got kicked out of children's ministry for Facebook post just saying I didn't believe in God from now on. I will live my life without religion now I have peace thanks to my parents for not doing Bible study at home
My cousins were the same way.They moved out and BUSTED LOOSE! Kind of reminds me of when I first started drinking alcohol.Drinking it all in and the good bad and ugly.Then living to tell about it
The best way to handle it is to be a good friend who they can come to talk about things that mom and dad wont talk about. Dont pound on their beliefs somewhat support them or else you may be banished by parents. Be the cool one they can talk to
Later they will come to you when they enter the real world.
I could recite Psalm 23 when I was 3 years old. So yeah, parents usually start teaching their kids things from their particular holy book practically as soon as they are shot out of the womb. It becomes like second nature thinking during the formative years.
I remember going to Sunday school at a church for a few weeks when I was about 7 or 8. The teacher there saw a kid bring Pokemon cards to school and instantly took them from him. After her making a logic leap that "Pocket Monsters" = putting demons in your pocket she threw them away and made the poor kid cry. I took them out of the trash in front of the teacher and gave them back to the kid and told the woman in charge "Those aren't yours to throw away". I was later kicked out of Sunday school.
"Harvest fields" **shudder** It sounds like a euphemism for slaughter.
Great video Seth. You are more enjoyable to listen to at your worst than over 90% of all sermons I ever heard as a member of the Assembly's of God Church. At your best, you are like water in a desert. Also, your book is great. I bought it on Amazon on a whim and read it in 4 hours in one night. Thank You.
i went to church camp as a child, and im so glad that edward found a way to get a camp that allows to really children to be children! also im worried about this organization trying to tell kids about hell at public school.
When I was 5, my best friend told me I had to accept Jesus Christ as my personal lord and savior, that he died for our sins and that if I wasn't saved I'd burn in hell forever. I knew at that moment I wasn't going to be religious. I was lucky to have parents who let me choose for myself and never pushed me in one direction or another but let me investigate for myself. Read the Bible twice as a kid to figure it out. Without a priest to tell me what it meant it was just a story. Proud atheist!
It's amazing how similar these childhood religious activities and experiences are across the US. Even the terms used...brought back some long ago memories that I wish weren't there.
When I was a teenager I helped out at my church's kid's summer camp. I remember trying to convert an 11 year old and for some reason it just felt wrong to me and I didn't know why. Now that I'm atheist I know lol.
I thought kids were taught not to take candy or rides from people they don't know. I guess that's another exemption religion has carved out for itself.
I was always a skeptic, my mom was my hero in that regard. I learned from a very early age that you can't just take what people tell you at face value. I'm very lucky to have the parents I did.
My grandma and mother were the same way."Don't just take people at their word.If it sounds like bullshit it probably is."😂
About all you can do, when it's somebody else's kids being indoctrinated, is to be there, so they know they have someone to go to if they start to question and their own family won't entertain questions.
I wanted to add to my original comment after listening to more of the podcast:
I grew up going to a Methodist church, but our family wasn't especially religious and about the only time I got pressured into anything religionwise was going through confirmation in junior high school. In early college, I hung around the Methodist campus ministry, but once I discovered SCA, which had its meeting on the same night as the campus ministry service, I dropped the campus ministry for SCA. After college, I spent a thankfully short time hanging around some extreme nondenominational evangelical fundamentalists online; they managed to mess with my head quite a bit, but I got out, and now I'd call myself an agnostic.
The thing is, I feel like the seed for my adult agnosticism was planted in my early or middle childhood--and ironically, Christian indoctrination was almost directly responsible. I used to watch the local Christian TV station, which showed Bible cartoons and such, but it also showed two ads that even as a kid I found deeply disturbing. The first ad showed a little girl in the woods picking flowers; suddenly the sun goes behind a cloud and something is chasing her through the dark woods, until she stumbles, falls--and ta-da! There's Jesus, in classic white robes and sandals, to carry the poor lost child off to safety. That commercial was just damn creepy, and it still creeps me out to think about it, the way it plays on such a classic nightmare scenario. The second one used a clip from what I believe is the movie The Ten Commandments, where Pharaoh carries his dead son, slain by the Holy Ghost, and puts him under a statue of the Egyptian god Anubis and begs Anubis to give his son back (the whole idea, I guess, being that false gods can't give you your kids back, but God's son was resurrected. Or something.) The whole story of the plagues always disturbed me as a kid anyway. I never talked about this to my parents, but those disturbed feelings about those two ads remained with me, buried, for years, this feeling that there was just something really wrong about them.
So there may not be a Christian kid, or a Muslim kid, or an atheist kid, or an agnostic kid, but I would say from my own experience that even kids are capable of thinking critically about religious indoctrination. If I'd had someone to talk to about my feelings about those two ads, I might have been able to articulate what bothered me about them. Granted, as I said, my family wasn't very religious, and if I'd grown up in a fundamentalist family, things might have been different. But still, the capability is there.
Andria (if I spelled her name right) was a great guest to have on. I have more hope for humanity now because I see that the very people that sell their religion can see reason and basic logic.
It's not supposed to make sense. It's supposed to make money and secure power. Which is what it does.
LOVE THE SHOW Seth!!!! Your AWESOME Seth!!!!
To be "free" can be hard. Noone tells you what to do, you have to make up your own purpose. You won't have an afterlife, but you can do things to "live on". I for example find it very fulfilling to teach (in my case at university). I'll possibly never revolutionize humanity, but when I teach students science in a way that they are interrested to do more, maybe one of them or their descendants will. Ofc, no way to be sure and maybe I don't live to that day, but that's my afterlife.
Kudos to you, for speaking up and standing by what is right...especially at a young age!
There's nothing wrong with a humble, personal belief if it helps someone through their life and generally makes them an objectively better person. The problem is closed minded, insistent and righteous belief that looks to make unjustified assertions about reality, then try to get it tought as fact. This is what annoys and offends non-believers.
Really is a crucial issue discussed in this podcast. It encompasses everything that is important in the battle between the rational and religious. The only way we can save future children from indoctrination is by winning the argument not only in court but in the public sphere .
I recently was in a debate while I was out shopping with the family, I am 30 years old and from the age of 15 studied the bible both old and new, and not being big headed know a lot about it. When they speak to you and your own knowledge out weighs theirs, it is easy to see why they target the young. Easy to influenced that way, give them knowledge and they lose :)
I asked my christian mom that very question yesterday. She got quite upset when I mentioned that of the 110 billion people who have ever lived, only 10 billion have been christian.
"Matthie, do you really think that God would just condemn all those people to hell without a fair chance?"
How does he do that mom?
"God proclaims his existence through the world around him."
Then why don't most people recognise him mom?
"I can't do these deep theological debates." Angry end of conversation from mom.
I think back when I was being told I needed Jesus when I was little, I remember something about being told I would be separated from my family when I die if I didn't accept him. I barely remember as I was like 5 when I said the prayer. And it might have been alluded to more than said plainly.
I might have been in awanas for that.
You are allowed to teach your own children as you wish. When a church deliberately creates social activities for young people who are unchurched in order to convert them, the church IS targeting. I was raised by Southern Baptists and this was and is a very common practice. Church people are comfortable OPENLY speaking of the ways they do target youth. Since they think being "saved" is good, they really don't see what is questionable about what they do.
Even growing up as a Christian child, I always wondered the same thing. When I asked about this, I was typically told it was because 'Jesus wants to have a relationship with us,' but that response never satisfied me, since this 'relationship' can start *after* we are dead and heaven-bound. Christians can be very wishy washy when it comes to the notion of judgment and salvation, yet it's the crux of their entire belief-system!
Nice to hear there's a camp quest here in the UK :)
I am also sick of people teaching their kids they are going to hell if they don't do this or don't do that. It breaks my heart and it is definitely child abuse. It is so dumb that people teach their kids something and threaten with hell if they don't believe it. Hell should never be even mentioned as a reason to believe.
I live in Seattle, WA and we have a brach of camp quest hear in Washington State!!!!
fear-pimp is such a good expression for what the church does to children!
Many of us HAVE researched the "prophecies". That is precisely WHY we dismiss them as vague.
that's sad. I'm glad you found the alternatives and i wish you the best of luck
Seth tackles Christianity because its his background. His specialty. He grew up in it. He's GOOD at tackling it. He's not against tackling Islam, and he occassionally brings it up with the help of those who are more knowledgable about it. But its not wrong that Christianity's his focus most of the time. Like he always says, find what you're good at and stick with it.
Ironically I became an Atheist at age 9. Just didn't make sense to me. My Grandma has been supportive of me the whole time. Anyways thanks for the show Seth, I love it.
Religion or no religion, I feel there are more important things you could teach to a child when they are very young. Kids about 6 and younger have an amazing ability to learn, you could teach a child a new language rather than religious propaganda.
I'd love to hear a podcast on those who are only liberally religious but still think there's something out there
Used to go to this lunchtime thing in primary school where this lady (can only remember her as having a bum leg) told us stories with felt characters and gave us camel stickers.
At the time (grade 2-4?? can't quite recall) my fave movie was this old comedy 1001 Nights that I had taped and kept watching and re watching. I was enamoured with all things middle east/Egyptian. Pyramids, desserts etc.
I had no idea people thought those felt stories were true. I was so naive.
As a high school student, I am ashamed to see that we've come to a point where kids like me are being mocked. Constantly being called a non-believer and whatnot. And I'm not even atheist. I'm apatheist (pretty much just a lack of interest in believing in a god) and i still get treated badly.
And I thought I was the only one who had the same experience you did.
(continued) needless to say the over all compromise after tons of things like this, was to forbid "seminary" after school for anyone below high school. many of the buildings still stand, i have no idea what they are used for, but the elective of "seminary" for the LDS faith is an option, and there are catholic schools available for those who want them,
I admire that you were able to figure this stuff out at FIVE years old! lol I wish it hadn't taken me 'til I was 20. So much time wasted. You should be very proud.
Agreed, I have a few videos upcoming where I share some interesting experiences involving the indoctrination of children. It concerns my current three week stint in a Christian pre-school.
"Nobody, I mean NOBODY puts ketchup on a hot dog"- Harry Callahan
Not all Christians try to convert people. I know that several do and that it is a main goal of the faith, which is one of the many reasons I hate the religion so, but I know several with a "live and let live" attitude, as well. I suppose if my child ever became the type that tried to convert all non-believers I might hold a resentment towards him, but I'm not going to automatically assume his religion would make me love him any less.
I wonder what would happen if proselytizers flaunted their faith rather than scream it from the mountains?
I wish I had a choice
Personally, I think the purpose of education is to teach a person to think for themselves. This is the opposite of religion
@osbourneagain1 same here! I would essentially chant "sorry god" for hours after doing something that would be deemed as sinful..
Is sleep deprivation a deliberate part of the indoctrination process?
When I say we, I mean that I'm a closet atheist looking for the best way out of my religion. I'm with you lovekitty, and I hate how many people in my congregation "study" with kids.
Everytime I hear the intro I sad face when I hear Hitchens voice
Working on it.
I live in Orlando, and we have an actual park called The Holy Land Experience. I am serious when I say this: they make a show about Jesus being crucified on the cross. Half naked, covered in blood, howling in pain. *ALL OF THAT IN FRONT OF A CROWD OF CHILDREN.*
your own holy guy purportedly said "give a man a fish, you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish you feed him for life" - so why would you just "give" your beliefs to your children? Teach them to think freely and form their own beliefs. If you taught them right, and if your beliefs are true, then they will come to the same beliefs as you.
I know that the ads are not related to the video, but I don't think Brad is all that handsome.
Pity it's not there anymore...
Camp quest should become an international organization. Australia and New Zealand next please. =)
it is but it's not the only one.
59:00 "Is my child missing out on cultural touchstones by not going to church" - In one sense, yes. As much as some of us would wish it were otherwise, Christianity has had a marked effect on our society. On the world, really. Learning about it IS important. But it can be taught as a study in sociology, psychology and culture without the woo element or the "This is true!" portion of the message they'd get via indoctrination. I.. Can't think who said it. I wanted to say it's Matt Dillahunty, but it could be one of the four horsemen (Dan B?) that said that teaching a child one religion is indoctrination, but teaching a child all religions is inoculation. If we teach the culture and psychology, the child will hopefully have enough tools to recognise the BS while still learning those points that actually do influence the world around them. And if they eventually do decide to accept what any one church or faith is teaching, they at least made an informed decision. Or a far more informed decision than they would have if they were taught this "truth" from before they could read.
According to Aron Ra, his family's version of Mormonism actually refuses to preach to children until they reach the age of majority.. Or the "Age of " something anyway. Eight years old. By which time, Aron himself had already inoculated himself to a large degree. I hate to admit to agreeing with anything Mormon, but there's something to this idea. Let a child develop a sense of self before you try and mould them into anything.
Feedback on this thought is much apreciated.
Its very difficult to tell my view on things, when I do they tell me "those atheist told you that didn't they?!" or/and "there not aware of whats going to happen" my grandfather has a massive ego, wont even get any hearing aids, so he gets angry when i tell him hes wrong.
I wish I could have gone to Camp Quet as a kid :'(
I wish I was still a kid for that matter...
im basing it on families and people i personally know and they are the nicest people i ever me toyu have to admit mormons are saints..
I never thought that I really saw the craziness when I was a christian child/teenager, until I listened to this, and I was like, yup, yup, yuuup, did that, yep, that happened to me too, I'm like XD at the moment. I had no idea, it's almost like repressed memories.
How so?? I've lived there and there's no way I'd rate it the best, far from the worst, but best??
Very lucky for her indeed.
I would have said Dumbledore because he basically uses child soldiers, but that would also apply to Zordon....& I loved Power Rangers as a kid,
Conflict of interest.
Another great podcast Seth. Listening to this podcast was almost unbearable i was so angry.
very different worlds man
0:21:25
That's the main reason why I don't watch those kinds of videos, I have a really nice monitor. Besides, It would take me 90 minutes to get through a 20 minute talk with one of these guys since I would be pausing constantly in order to keep my brain from melting.
Churches aren't really places that children feel comfortable in. I don't think I've ever heard a child say to it's parents "Mommy, can we go to church"?. Given the choice of being outside playing with friends, or going to church and listening to a sermon for an hour, it's a no brainer.
As a former Mormon, I'm well familiar with childhood indoctrination. It makes me sad that my young, innocent sister is being put through this brainwashing.
Oh I'm sure it's short.
Ten year old Muppet puppeteer? That very nearly beats my evil atheist clown and circus person backstory. Damn.
As a life long Atheist I think it is important for kids to learn of ancient stories. But they need to be taught as the stories they are not as a truth that some people think they are.
For eg knowing how to correctly use references to Jezebel, Sisyphus, Valhalla can make conversation interesting.
Harry Potter and the tale of Voldemort is equal to Yahweh and the tale of old. All are stories and are interesting. But are just stories.
It's ok :)
it makes me sad because those church organizations think they are trying to help
I was a born and raised Mormon. I can tell you that although they do have some good people Mormon's are definitely NOT saints. As a child I was treated terrible by the youth as well as the leaders and since my parents are still involved I still make an appearance on occasion at special functions that my dad invites me to and I feel like I'm being shunned. Nobody will talk to me now that I left the church. I feel like I was Amish!
I fell prey to the fun activity/witness on the drive. I went to a snowboard trip even though I was an atheist (hey it sounded and was fun!) I ended up doing youth group things for a few years even though I was a closeted atheist.
I remember having a huge argument when they decided to have my little sister baptized.
Basically, they asked me to be the godmother to tie me into it, but I refused to have any part of this and pleaded to let her decide when she's an adult. She's five now, I don't think she has any concept of religion or God yet. Our father's attempts of indoctrinating us were, if you appreciate the irony, thwarted by the fact that he's an absent, useless parent.
That will save you a lot of time then as you do not need to return. I for one will return as I find him to be one of the few sane american voices on the net
I do.
"bobdylan4evr" is a way better usage of letter composition, I guess.
Your sarcasm indicates you think I am an atheist. I get disgusted by indoctrination, yet I fail to see how that rules me out as a Christian...
religion gets us when we are at our weakest. and thats when were still kids
I'm getting my major in astronomy.
“But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.
God comes when he decides. However he did tell us the signs.
“And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves, people fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken. - luke
Branch of camp quest*