Buying the WRONG CNC Router will cost you THOUSANDS.
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 มิ.ย. 2024
- Buying a CNC is a big decision. This video will make that decision easier and give you a lot to consider before you invest.
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Avid Pro 4848 - www.avidcnc.com
Shapeoko Pro - shop.carbide3d.com/andybirdbuilds
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I am new to CNC (about a year) and your channels content has been so helpful getting started. I've used Carbide Create sofware since the beging, and just switched to pro so I can run some 3D projects. My VEVOR 4030 CNC is a full ball screw machine, it has linear rails also and it was only $750.00. I wouldn't reccomend this machine to anyone (unless you just want to obtain it for some good parts)!! I've gotten 2 machines from them (for the price of the one) both were terrible and always missed steps on the Y axis to the point were the machine was unusable. I changed one machine to closed loop stepper motors that can't miss any steps. Now I have a machine with great hardware (ball screws, linear rails), and perfectly operating stepper motor system for about $1,000.00. I am currently converting the 2nd machine to the closed loop stepper motor system. I am going to end up with 2 full 4030 ball screw CNC machines for about $1,500.00 in parts.
Thanks for sharing your experience and explanation of the variables to consider. Keep up the good work!
I've been down a huge youtube rabbit hole this past week while looking for my first CNC. Love your videos, thanks for such great content!
You're welcome. Thanks for watching!
Self evaluation is very important in any large tool decision. I'd love a 4x8, water cooled spindle CNC.. But the reality of it is I don't need it lol. Space is tight in my garage, and for me this is a hobby, and will be for a very long time.
There's nothing wrong with that!👍
Thanks for your comments, pros and cons and not trying to over support one over the other just giving out information to those guys like me who have a ton of tools I can make just about anything but I don’t have a CNC machine I’ve been wanting one for quite a while so I’m doing some heavy duty shopping.
Don’t get caught up in size. Ask yourself what you’ll use the CNC for. I build custom furniture, jigs, housewares and all kinds of cool one-offs and I rarely exceed 36”x48”. I would advise to spend more on quality components on a smaller machine. Probotix, ShopSabre, CAMaster, AVID, all make affordable, industrial machines in small footprints that will eat wood all day long.
For under $3k you can get a 1515 QueenAnt pro v2 from Yuyong industries. Ball screws, 2.2kw water cooled spindle, linear rails, hybrid 3.6N.m stepper motors.
A comparison that's missing is tolerances. Which machine is going to do the best job. I'm looking at generating a mold for a human face. Who's got the best working machine to pull tolerances.
After getting to the dust part and requirements, that put me off, so thanks, Now if I was still considering a purchase, It seems that the companies would have some trial software to practice on. Is it worth learning on a free version to see if you are going to "get it" or not.
Generating a 3D from a photo is something I've looked into. It wasn't quite beyond me but at my age and sanity level, It would certainly be a lengthy learning curve. If you ever touch on a 3D project from a photo, I'd be all ears.
Thanks much for your very well put together works. Lighting camera ect, seems yours is a high production values. Keep it up! Wish me luck finding a shop.
You can absolutely get a ballscrew system in the 3k CNC market and it has been the case for a while
Share a link
Yep. Shapeoko 5.
I spent over 5k on my machine 8 yrs ago and have only spent 500.00 since replacing my controller with a factory upgrade & software........ other than that everything else has been bits & Vectric software upgrades.......... I got my money out of it 20 fold and its still running strong !!!!
I run a commercial CNC router job shop and in my opinion Andy is giving very good advice and information in this video.
Andy, being a retired machinist, I totally agree with you as you compare a 3 to 15K machine. I've run all types of manual and some CNC machines in my career, and some are much better quality and it's easy to see the difference when your running them. But to get my foot in the door of this new venture, a 3K Shapeoko looks good to me. Thanks for creating this video series.
Good information for most people. There are also other higher end machines out there also. Almost no limit to the amount of money that can be spent getting one. I personally started out with a 70k one that is 5x10 vacuum table and has ATC and servo drives on all axes, weighs 3500lbs. and has a 12hp spindle. It is obviously not for everyone, and definitely not small. I just wanted to have a very robust frame as mentioned in video as I come from a metal machining background and weight is a sign of a ridged machine. It is also worth noting that tooling for any machine is going to be another expense as is all the other peripherals and materials to machine. It will add up faster than you might think. My attitude is, if I make money with it, fine that's a bonus, that way no worries about getting money back.
I
Didn’t see any comments on the Next Wave Shark HD500 CNC
Good? Bad? These are sold at Rockler and comes with vcarve and controller.
Many years ago I bought CNC motor/electronics kit and built the platform. Worked really well for 100’s of projects.
Looking to get back into woodworking and want an off the shelf system.
Any advice would be appreciated
You left out one sort of common drive system. Acme lead screw. A lot of people mistake them for a ballscrew, but they are not and are inferior...
I didn't know that. Thanks for sharing!
That is false. It completely depends on the application. They are not objectively inferior, just like belts are not objectively inferior. Belts are faster than screws of either kind, perfect for use in lasers & the shapeoko 4 pro belts are robust, too.
So, me making 10 perfectly cut signs this weekend for $70 each on my $600 Foxalien Masuter Pro is the wrong way? Last weekend I ran $800 worth of signs on my $1500 Yorahome Silverback. I have to rethink what I'm doing wrong. Just because I can afford to buy a $15k machine, why would I tie up all that money to make one sign at a time? I can buy 10 Yorahome machines and make 10 projects at once. Only reason for me to spend more money on another machine would be if I were making items larger than 40"×40". My units have more than paid for themselves, which means more cash in my pocket. Both of my little cheapo CNC's still work perfectly. You do you, I do profit.
I agree I’ve use hobbiest machines for awhile making a decent side hustle. Once you go 30k and above that machine has to run everyday just to pay for parts and the electric bill
I'm just starting with a Vevor 3018 that I've upgraded to a 20K spindle and a working area of about 3033 for half the cost of a 3040, about $330. If I wanted to, I could go get another Vevor 3018 and upgrade it and have twice the production of a single 3040. I love what the machine can do and the product it produces and I'm still learning the limitations of what it can and can't do.
Perhaps you can add to your video and show what the finished products look like right off the various CNC machines. I think this is more telling than most anything else. Sure, a $15K machine is more rigid and tougher and longer lasting (I would hope) than a machine at 1/5 the cost, but what does the end product look like? How much post processing is needed on a $3K VS $15K machine? What aftermarket products are available to make a $3K machine better at a reasonable cost (of course, reasonable being relative) Also, you mention how much faster a $15K machine is than a $3K machine, well, I could buy two, three, four or even five $3K machines and have them all running at the same time, out producing any single $15K machine and I could do more different things at the same time, I could outfit one or multiple $3K machine(s) for a specific type of task making setup and running even faster and I would have redundancy. Also, the spindles and stepper motors are much less expensive for $3K machines, in general. I certainly understand there are a lot of caveats to what I've said, but I think the information would be beneficial to all.
Great job! Thank you.
Great video. I have learned so much from your videos I’m sure glad you do these videos.I have Onefinity 32x32 with Carveco maker software.
It’s a great starter machine for me and there local as for me. I make acrylic display parts with it and then fuse weld all my parts together. Sell them to my regular customers.
Thanks again keep it up.
It's great to hear from you! Thanks for watching 👍
Andy: Explaining the differences between 3K and 15K machines.
Me, your typical 3018 enthusiast: 🤔
Would love a video about the "Vectric" Software, you are now using/ you wish you would've used from the begin with..
I just bought a 3018 ProVER to play around with until I can afford to build a bigger machine. I'm waiting on new bits and collets to show up for it. I know there are flaws with this machine, but for the price I got it for I could not have built it that cheap. I do plan on changing things on this machine after I learn how to use it.
It's a great way to learn.
I looked at the AVID CNC's but thought the frame was not rigid enough for my needs. I took a chance and purchased a 4x8 CNC with heavy steel frame and gantry from China... came with vacuum table, 2 suction motors, 4th axis rotary, dust collection, water cooled spindle, and some tooling. It was all pre-wired... I had to supply my own PC and it runs Mach3. Total cost with shipping was 10K from AlphaCNC... my gamble has paid off as the machine's performance is awesome. Initial setup and calibration was pretty much dead on. Only issue was it took almost 1 year to get the machine, (was during Covid so I am sure that effected shipping)
How can I get in contact with you privately? I am in the process of importing one. I would like to hear your comments and experiences.
Thanks for another great video. I am the 3k guy. I remember you had a Shapeoko 4. Did you have to adjust the belts often? I am looking at a cutting area of 17in or so more due to shop space. I have found a couple of 3k with ball drive. I am also considering the Millright Carve King 2. Software wise; I like that I can get a perpetual license with the Carveco Create Pro. I am basically going to make some signs and small to medium 3d carving with the hopes of do some 3d geographical maps. One of my considerations is that I have limited time I do not want to spend time adjusting belts every X number of times like I have to do with my desktop laser. Keep up the good work.
I can only remember having to adjust my belts 1 time, maybe 2. Theres virtually no stretch in them. I would give Vcarve Pro a good look. I've really enjoyed using it.
Look at the Onefinity machine it’s a ball screw all stainless steel very fantastic machine and at a great price. I love it. I use Carveco great software.
@@AndyBirdBuilds Thank you!! I have been playing with it and seeing the CNC I am going to order cuts 17.5 x 17.5 I can go with the desktop. You just saved me a few hundred clams! :) Have a good weekend.
I've been watching a lot of youtube videos this week and have gone down the rabbit hole while looking for my first CNC. Love your videos, I've narrown down to the Shapeoko 4 XXL or the 5 pro, My question to you is if you had to buy your first cnc and you are in a 2 car garage what would you go with the 5 4x2 or the 4x4 or the 4 XXL? I know you can use tiling but is it worth the trouble for the extra 2 feet and the space saving. I plan on using it to make templates for furniture making and some side hustle to help pay it off. My shop is already full with large machines but I can squeeze in either of the above cnc's. Thanks for all of your videos!
Glad to hear your enjoying the channel. For what you are wanting to do with it, both options will work great for you. Some questions to think about, How much floor space do I want to dedicate to this vs. what I plan on doing with it. Basically, do you want to jump in head first with the 4x4 or can you do what you want to do with the 4 which is 33" x 33" cutting table? You will get better performance with the 5, but I'm not sure if its really needed for what you want to do with it. Hope this helps!
@@AndyBirdBuilds Have you ever wished your 4 had a bigger table? I've always started small and upgraded as needed but with the cnc I feel pay once cry once I really don't want to have upgrade a year from now just to get a large table. I'm hoping to turn this into a fulltime gig. Thanks again!
Can we get more info about the super beginner price point? Like the $300 range.
Can you do a video going over the differences and between and why you like Vectric more than Fusion 360. I just bought an online course toe learn Fusion 360 because a few other woodworkers/CNCers suggested it. I just bought my first CNC machine too, a Shapoko 5 Pro 4x4', which isn't even out yet until mid March, and I added the VFD Spindle. So this video didn't give me a whole lot of confidence in my choices. I'm sure I still made a good choice, but now I have some doubts in the back of my mind. 😀 My plan was to see if I like it all and can make money from it, if I can pay off my first machine I planned on buying a second machine to ramp up.
You made an excellent decision on your machine. There's nothing wrong with the route you took on software. Up until a year ago, I would have suggested it is the way to go. But, Vectric is by far easier to use and is everything you'll ever need in a cad/cam software.
@@AndyBirdBuilds Thanks that helps a lot! 😀
I would argue rigidity is the most important factor. All of the other variables are very important but don't even come into the picture if your machine can flex under load. I've purchased many smaller machines and the level of regret I've felt with those has been astounding. If you're a hobbyist then buy a cheap machine and learn how to use it. If you're a business owner don't waste your time below the 10k mark. Just my opinion but I've learned my lesson. You'll spend more time fixing and adjusting your machine than you will making anything.
I agree. My first cnc is a gemnitsu 4040. I should’ve saved my money a little longer and got something in a much higher quality. All I’m trying to do is make this thing work better and it’s not worth my time.
@@Checkitfirst buy once cry once. I've heard that terminology and didn't pay attention to it and I regretted it.
@@SoleilGuitars
At least I wasn’t out a tremendous amount. I wasn’t really expecting a whole lot anyway. It was only $700. I know $700 is still a lot of money but at least it wasn’t $2000 and I was unhappy with that. I guess it could’ve been worse.
@@Checkitfirst I spent around $6,000 before I realized I needed a machine that cost around 10k to be happy with it
@@SoleilGuitars
Well,, I guess I could sell my truck 🙄
I started with Autocad 13 and helix back in the mid 90's. Everything was 2d in those days. Now I'm starting over with fusion 360 and it's kinda difficult for me to learn.
I've been researching for the last couple of months. I really like the Shapeoko 5 pro 4x4 w/VFD, but I recently saw the new X-Carve Pro 4x4. They look very similar to me and there are very few TH-cam videos on either of them. I like the Shapeoko but it is 3 1/2 months backordered. The X-Carve Pro is available now but is twice the price and I don't like that Easel is browser based. I've also considered a 4x4 and even a 4x8 Avid Standard. That's way more money but is far more versatile and open to using the software of your choice. Use case is a hobbyist that likes gadgets. No production work now but who knows what the future may hold. I'm also weighing the axiom of "Cry once" when it comes to price.
If I was making the decision, I wouldn't even consider the xcarve. It's overpriced for what you're getting, in my opinion. Like I've said the video, it depends on the capability you need/want between the other 2.
I believe I have the same machines as Andy does. I had a Shapeoko 3 XXL (32" workspace) and I now have an Avid CNC Pro 4x4. The Shapeoko is going to be much easier to use and has some nice features like the bitsetter that the Avid doesn't have OOTB. The Shapeoko 5 Pro looks nice and addresses some of the issues I had with the S3. I hear you on buy once, cry once but it is a big difference in price ($5K vs $12-14K). Completely agreeing with what Andy said in the video, I would probably recommend this criteria for your situation: Hobbyist/Prosumer = Shapeoko 5 Pro, light production = Avid CNC Pro, medium production = full frame design (that I know little about). The nice aspect is that if you ever decide to upgrade years later, your CNC files will mostly transfer except that now you will be able to increase the depth of cut and feeds/speeds, the knowledge and files are portable. I suppose it is possible to learn CNC stuff on an Avid but I would likely have made more dramatic mistakes. I say this because the software and hardware that comes with Shapeoko will hold your hands more and make mistakes/crashes a bit less likely. The Avid on the other hand is faster, more powerful and complicated which gives you ample rope to destroy your work halfway through, slam a 1/2" bit into an aluminum crossmember and screw up a program because you were in inch mode as opposed to mm mode. Not that any of those scenarios actually happened to me in the last year :)
@@AndyBirdBuilds I really appreciate that. That's the exact answer I needed to hear.
thank you!
I looked at the Fox Alien, then the Shapoko 5, but because of expandability, especially tool changer and 4 th axis, I am probably going with a StepCraft M1000.
I got the Onefinity Journeyman, a great machine around the $3K mark.
Let me know how the stepcraft performs. I was very interested in that machine. I ultimately went with the x-carve Pro and couldn't be happier.
@@SoleilGuitars the problem with the stepcraft is that the machine is just the ante. I will probably have over $6k in it when I am done and still want extras. And I will not be making that money back. I don't plan on using it to batch out stuff to sell. I want it for precision parts, automated routing, and a toy.
@SoleilGuitars seriously? Wow, oK
I'm retired, and just thinking about getting a hobbyist CNC to supplement my income, just making a few things to sell at craft markets. I have watched several of your videos. You about had me talked into Shapeoko, but then I came across a company called DWC - Digital Wood Carver. Have you seen these, and do you have any thoughts about them? (Just looking at them online they seem to be a good quality, but I'm sure it's hard to say until you've seen one in person.)
Get a Yorahome Silverback for $1500 and make your money back in 2 craft shows. For $3k the Onefinity is awsome. Or, be like me and start with a FoxAlien or Genmitsu.
I say, start with a more affordable unit to learn on and then you can make money using the cheaper one and work you way up.
Ive been thinking of getting the Maslow cnc but on the fence. Have you ran one? Any thoughts?
I haven't run one before. It looks pretty cool for a hobbyist. But I don't know anything about it 😄
@@AndyBirdBuilds Yeah, Its the only vertical one I've seen. My woodworking shop is to small for anything else. So jams me up on what exactly to do.
What do you thing of BobCNC machines?
I’m pretty sure you have said this already but what program do you use to send to your machine
Mach 4
@@AndyBirdBuilds
Ok. I’m fairly new to cnc,, about 2 months new. I bought a cheep machine to learn on. Been using easel to start with. I’m board now and looking at higher quality ones. Not quite as professional as the one in this video but like your other one the shapeoko. I think that’s how you spell it. Lol. Trying to get away from easel. Not that it’s bad. Just want to broaden my horizons. Playing around with CarveCo right now but I need a program to send to the machine. Just wanting to find the right one since I don’t know how to use any of them yet. Easel has everything built-in.
Andy witch one would you recommend between the shapeko and the onefinity?
Shapeoko
There is not a single advantage that the Shapeoko has over the Onefinity. The Onefinity is the superior machine especially with the new Masso controller and step motors.
@@almichka786 I guess it depends on witch model you want and how much you are willing to spend
Andy would you still recommend the infinity x50 as a starter? I’m going to be more hobby than anything else. I’m in my 70’s, hobbyist
I would give the Shapeoko a good look. There isn't a better place to start on the market, in my opinion.
Thank you Andy
I'm looking into buying a CNC as a side business in the foreseeable future.
One of my main criteria for my first CNC one that I can afford to screw up on. As I will be new to the machine I will be more likely to make mistakes and I'd rather mistake a $3,000 mistake than a $15,000.
As I learn the machine, begin to under stand it's short coming, and see the volume of my business grow: then I can justify a more expensive machine. Until then I can content myself with longer cut times or simpler projects.
Makes sense to me. We all make mistakes. I will say, you'd have to intently try to break one of these machines in order to do it. You won't ruin the machine one accident.
A $3000 machine isn't necessarily going to be less rigid as a $15000 machine, unless they're a similar size.
Do you have an opinion on BobsCNC for a beginner/hobbyist?
I started on bobs. I think it was great for me as a beginner. 2 years later, I’m upgrading to a 5x10 foot avid CNC
@@tylerwelsch4896 nice. Thanks for the feedback.
No hobbiest would come close to utilizing or needing anything close to a 10k machine. Also you cant afford to keep it running or fixing it. I’d argue for a hobbiest stay in the 3k and under budget. And get something that is cheap to fix. Unless you run it non stop everyday you won’t need any other features
I'm now in the process of rectifying choosing the wrong cnc. A year and a half ago I was in the market for a onefinity but because of the 7-8 week lead time, I went with another machine(I won't say which) and it has been a bit of a nightmare. The machine started running inconsistently 6 months after buying it, to the point that ibought a 2nd smaller cnc. 2 weeks ago I ordered a onefinity elite. Has an even longer lead time now (8-10 weeks) but I'm all in now. I know a onefinity isn't as good as an avid or laguna. But it will definitely do what I want...I hope
Why don't you share which was the crappy one so I don't buy one :D
@@editboy23was thinking the same thing
Look at a long mill that are the actual best in rigidity function and they are only 1300 for the lowest base model and a fully built is only 2000 and their customers service is amazing
isn't the longmill a belt-drive system? Fairly sure it's no-where near as rigid as a Onefinity or even a FoxAlien
It uses lead screws and a couple of v wheels but I know of people that have had them for 2 years+ with minimal wear
tear or no tear it's by definition significantly less rigid than a machine like a onefinity. I'm sure it's rigid enough for plenty of tasks just the original statement rings strange to me@@mcfixit66_yt77
great video, i will note that one the 3000$ machine, the bosch 1617 is a go getter of a router to use instead of the spindle it will also also come with a 1/2 and 1/4 collet, companies out there make collets for the different routers in different sizes as well!
Neat! Good info
Ha, I bought a cheaper machine, then went to an 8k light industrial with ball screws. Such a different experience.
“The memory of bad quality will always last longer than the shock of high price.”
there are 1000 dollar machines with ballscrews, belts are used for higher acceleration there is always something more rigid but what are trying to hog out steel you milling titanium lol
I paid $600 for my fox alien new and it paid for itself in 2 weeks. So I basically got it for free.and I has a spindle not a router.
Amazing! Do you plan to keep making money and investing in a more capable machine in the future?
that's awesome I got a machine about a year ago and haven't made a penny of it
Putting a Makita on th FA and "starter" machines is a must. I can cut and carve al day long, just slower than the "big boy" units.
@@thewoodshed15🤣🤣🤣 I’m sorry to hear that
You musta got a partnership with Avid, right? Because they are not very rigid & a stepcraft Q series is much more.
What are your toughts about stepcraft? Maybe you have experience Stepcraft M series?
at least you said you didnt know what you were talking about
"there aren't machines at the $3k mark with ball screws" ?!?!?
There is no complete machine on the market with ballscrews from $3k
@@AndyBirdBuilds If you mean that because Onefininity does not come with a router or a waste board, then no there is not. You can buy a Onefinity and add a router and waste board for less than $2500. You are playing semantics.
All these machines that you are promoting are still at a hobby level. Anything that is not made from steel tubes and welded is considered that. Can it earn you money? Yes, but do consider checking something from China as the price tag is twice as lower and quality much much higher.
that aluextrusion machine you showing just can not match to the machine i got from china for 1/3rd of price
my gantry made out a steel tube, 6x10 with 1/4 wall thickness
double the height and width you showing in the video
in comparison this steeltube fits for a 16 wheelers bed, but you couldnt use your extrusion for same purpose
i purchased this machine with all tax, and shipping to my door for 5500
let alone components coming from china, like rails and spindles, microswitches drives and motors
buying directly from china or from ebay still way more affordable
its just too common american companies rebranding and selling under their name with spiked prices
👍👍
Love your videos but I recommend gluing those feet of yours to the floor, you hop too much when you talk and it is distracting. I was on tv once and before they started filming they told me to pretend your feet are glued to the ground so it must be common for people todo.