Well, more a suggestion for a series: Pforzheim seems to be one area with a few interesting companies - as is Glashütte with at least two. That's potentially six further parts right there, I think.
Like you Tim, I don’t see swastikas, lightning bolts or glorification of a certain odious ideology, I see a finely crafted timepiece. It’s just a watch in my humble opinion.
Totally agree with you. Some amazingly brilliant people made this watch There's no bad ideology inside this watch, just good pure good and all the bad stuff was left outside of the watch factory.
It's simply a historic design that is still appealing. Also, the watches produced today are a far cry from the watches produced for the German troops - the size, the movements, sapphire crystal, blue treatment on hands and screws, a transparent back allowing viewing of the movement. The WWII fliegers were mass produced, the present day watches by Stowa, Laco, IWC, A. Lange, etc, are fine examples of the watchmaking craft.
There is no moral issue. If you can't seperate a watch from the crimes commit in WW2 then you are very immature. I would like to see you make a tutorial on how to pick a suit.
1.: I own this watch since over a year and I love it. It is more or less daily on my wrist. Very versatile and the quality is brilliant. 2.: There are many other watches which were worn by soldiers who killed other people... therefore many other watches should be criticised as well. Many of the luxuary timepieces have been worn by criminals and drug-lords and still people love the watches and don't think about crimes and so on... So calm down and enjoy the watches and the hobby! By the way: Please contunie with Sinn ;-) Beste Grüße, Frankie
@@CasebackWatches ye, couldnt see the entire headstock. And if thats an upright piano, maybe it could be an elegant background with the keyboard lid open. Fits the topic and your attire ;) Look fwd to your future content.
thank you for the delicate and acurate analisys of the Germean history and watch fenomenon. I agree and empathise with all you said. ( Scottish living in France ).
Hi Tim. With me you were talking to the converted, I purchased my Stowa Flieger 40mm about three weeks ago after much deliberation. I was prepared to spend considerably more but in the end I couldn't see the point, this is a great everyday watch at what I consider a very reasonable price. Love your work by the way, keep them coming.
Love Flieger styled watches and love Stowa as a brand/mfg. Your apologetic speech of 3 reasons to consider others feelings was tastefully done, as always. We can’t move to the future without acknowledging the past. As the human race, we have done and unfortunately, will do ignorant and vile things on and to this world. But to talk about it is to not forget about it. The danger comes when we forget about it or not speak of it... then we are doomed to repeat history. Thank you for your hard and tasteful work my friend!
Just from the standpoint of a person who likes the art on crafting hand watches I absolutely adore the class and minimalist/vintage look of this hand watch, and I really enjoyed your video plenty of interesting historical facts and technical information. I hope can afford one or two of these legit Flieger Watches in the future. Thanks for your content.
Thanks for the review Tim. RE: the moral aspect of buying a watch that is an homage to a German WWII pilots model, I personally don't see a problem. My family is Jewish, so anything Nazi related is a sensitive topic for us. Despite this, I had an Archimede Flieger that is of a similar design to your Stowa that I gifted to my son and he wears it most of the time. It is no more a problem morally than someone buying a Volkswagen, or maybe a Mitsubishi. That said, in my minds, the moral aspect of owning a homage to something from that period of history has to do with why you are collecting such an item and is it part of a larger interest in collecting Nazi memorabilia. If your interest is watches, or Fliegers, or even WWII vintage Fliegers, than I don't see a problem. When would I say you have a problem? I have a story. Some years ago, I was taking care of my father's estate in Florida and I needed transportation to the airport. Surprisingly often, these airport limo guys talk about themselves, this limo driver was no exception. This guy started telling my his passion, which was WWII German aviation. His personal favorite was the Messerschmitt ME 109. So, he tells me, he has a room full of stuff related to German fighters and bombers from that era.. He assured me he was in no way a Nazi, but nonetheless had a great admiration for the technical achievements of the Luftwaffe. Frankly I was not so sure. If the guy told me that he was interested in WWII aviation and as part of that, he collected memorabilia from both the RAF, US Army Air Corps, and Luftwaffe, I would be less perpelexed. But just Nazi aviation memorabilia? To quote Shakespeare, "The lady doth protest too much." My bet is, he collects all kinds of Nazi memorabilia and frankly, this is a collection I have no interest in seeing, or even hearing about.
Greetings from Australia! I have the limited edition 90th anniversary Stowa 41mm Klassik Flieger 6498. I love it! It is one tough looking watch and the movement is a joy to see.
It was good to hear you speak on the moral side of these types of watches. I often consider them in the same regard as Leica - tools used for support of the war, but no longer regarded as such.
well done for talking about this head on. i am from England (Birmingham) and after all this time , it is in the past. England has had wars with numerous countries overs the centuries and they seem to be forgotten. People here seem to enjoy driving expensive German cars without any problems with the past.
Cheers for pointing out the ghost date thing. Hate that, and it hadn't occurred to me despite knowing it's a 2824, duh. Happily these can be ordered as manual wind ... though I don't think they're any thinner that way, which would be nice. Or it can be had with the date window if one wanted ... that. Anyway, I may get one, perhaps the Verus version. They seem like actual watchfolk there at Stowa, and it shows. And I need a banger, which is one step above beater. I like the SARX035 too, but they're impossible to find, and this seems like more watch for similar numbers.
You have done a very good job of addressing the german watch history. I personally think it is a little too sensitive and far fetched for people to attack you yourself for reviewing watches, but you did a very good job. I look at them as I look at BMWs or Mercedes. Great quality and tradition of german engineering.
I was born in Earlsdon in Coventry in 1966, I love your Stowa wrist watch and want you to enjoy wearing it. My grandparents were in Coventry during the Luftwaffe bombings so I know all about it. I drive a BMW convertible so that must tell you something about what I think about German people. I am at this moment wearing a Tavannes Submarine, silver import hallmarks date it to 1917 and she's keeping good time (ok she gains 3 minutes in 24 hours lol). I now want a Flieger wrist watch after watching your video
Another well thought out and presented video Tim! Another aspect to justifying the conflicting feelings of wearing a "WW2 inspired" watch is to realize that, although the opposing characters and the motives of that war were horrendous and defied all human decency, there were many things that were developed and used that became part of everyday post-war life for the rest of the world. One example is the Saturn rocket developed by the German scientist, Wernher von Braun, which propelled American men to the moon. Also, if we are to judge a particular watch style as "immoral" or "as a homage to evil" then we must hold accountable all the other watch brands that come from the venerable Bauhaus. Consider also that we should ban all German chocolate cake, Volkswagons, X-rays, gummy bears and even the Easter Bunny!
I'm glad you touched base on the "Moral aspect" of the Flieger watch. Seems like everyone else that reviews these watches and is German act like there is no dark side to this historic watch. What the Nazi war machine did was terrible...no doubt. But we shouldn't blame items or the current German people for what the Nazi party did. Just like we should blame Jews/Romans(Italians) for killing Jesus. We shouldn't blame VW/Porsche/Mercedes Benz..etc for making vehicles during WWII. So many other companies from around the world used the war to make money including the US. As for the Flieger watch...they are simple, great looking and engineered to work. I love the design and am going to buy that watch because of it technical aspect.
Great review - your videos are some of the most intelligent in the watch world. In re. the moral dilemma, we live in an absurdly sensitive era. People can always find something to offend them, don't worry about it. Remember that one of the most popular autos in the US and UK during the 60s - only 15-25 years after the war ended - was the VW Beetle, which was actually designed by F. Porsche for Hitler. I think Stowa Fliegers can get a pass 75 years later. Also note that one of the original flieger manufacturers contracted by the Luftwaffe was IWC, which also made watches for the allies - they're just mechanical tools, no moral issue at all. Laco nachste, bitte.
Nice, honest video. Thank you. I just feel war, esp. that war, was destructive enough, so let's not further destroy that which has survived it, in this case, Stowa aviation watches. I do fully understand that others may view it differently and that is quite OK. I appreciate your honesty in tacking the issue. Folks have made similar issues with regard to Panerai. But I think we should celebrate the military virtues these watches convey in an effort to come together and move on.
Nice video Tim I personally like the hand winding version of this watch one reason is that the movment fills all of the case as in my opinion it should do I have actually built a a watch like this using a 6497 movment with very nearly the same dial for under £300 pounds it does not have sapphire glass but looks very good .
Simple answer: Both. They are very close quality wise and in regards of the design. I like the Stowa name more, but that's only my taste. I would concentrate first on the model and then on the brand. So A vs B dial etc. and then you can figure out which company delivers that model with the details you like most at the best price. (But stay away from the Miyotas ;-)
Thank you for your comments, Tim. About the criticism about the watch and its history, I can say that according to those people's logic, no one should buy Hugo Boss, BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Porsche, Volkswagen, Mont Blanc, Bayer and many other brands, but that's not what happens. Oh, come on! We're living in a different time and we are not WWII people. If you want to use a flieger, use it! Simple as that!
Tim I am in total agreement with you on your views pertaining to the WW2 history of the Luftwaffen. It's history. History is for a civilised society to learn from, so that good can come out of it. As for Germany today so much good and benefit has come out. Both my grandfather (He was killed in WW2) and my beloved father were smack in the middle of WW2. My father told me what happened, he made sure we learned about it and be positive. As for Flieger watches from Germany, I choose Baumuster B from Laco. The legibility is No1. I can understand why the switch from Baumuster A to Baumuster B. For a Mission Critical Timer I chose the SINN U2 SDR EZM5 case made with deutscher u boot stahl. I appreciate your honesty and your watch channel. I am looking to march forward in time with time. Thank you.
Great review Tim as always and a really great subject in a real tool watch in the form of a Pilots watch. I really like the Stowa models because you can also customize your watch with a choice of movements, with or without logos, date or no date. I would always chose the no date manual wind movement which is usually the ETA 2801. I think Laco would be a good choice for part 2. Thanks again Tim and keep up the good work.
Personally I dont see a morale issue with German made time pieces, I have been collecting "Dirty Dozen" time pieces with my now up daughters at flea markets for over 15 years & just got a nice full collection at Auction. Many people collect various types of miltary items Tim.
BTW the Flieger Klassik 40 is such a strap queen. You can put it on anything and it will look good - shark mesh, alligator, crocodile, ostrich, lizard, NATO, Zulu, calfskin, two-stitch vintage Italian, shell cordovan...anything you can think to try will probably work.
I absolutely love that watch and would like to purchase one in the future, thanks Tim for another great video and including other topics is fine with me.
Schönes Review einer schön gemachten Uhr. Du bist glaub ich, der erste Reviewer der auch die dunkle Seite dieser Militäruhren aus dem 2ten Weltkrieg anspricht. Wenn jemand Militaria oder Militäruhren aus der Zeit verabscheut oder als Nogo empfindet, kann ich das Nachvollziehen und natürlich respektieren. Schlußendlich ist es aber nur eine schöne Uhr die die Zeit anzeigt, sonst nichts.
Caseback Watches thank you for the video anyway! I would love to get a stowa myself! And this dateless feature is not an issue for me at all. Vielen dank!
My parents were both in the armed services during the war as were 4 of my uncles. The two on my father's side did not survive the war. My wife's father was forced into the German army and she was a baby in Berlin during the blockade so I have a lot of history with WWII even though I was born after the war. I bear no malice towards Stowa; they likely had no choice about producing watches for the Luftwaffe. I find the 36mm Stowa marine classic very appealing.
Love your videos, Tim! Would definitely like to see more style videos. Also, have you had much experience with Certina watches? They don't seem to get much coverage, but I recently picked up a vintage Bristol 235 and it's become a favourite.
Excellent video Tim! Very informative! I totally agree with your sensitive assessment of why we should still wear war time inspired and designed watches. Looking beyond watches and looking at something very familiar to us all, the BMW logo for example represents a spinning propeller (as they were a manufacturer of aircraft engines, up until the end of WWII) and if we are not happy with war time significant companies and their contributions, then we would really need to make some big changes in our lives to not be seen to support them. Everything must be kept in context and we must have a sensitive viewpoint about it. You explained this well! As for the 2 position crown/stem setting of the ETA movement on the STOWA watch, when watches don't have a date indication, this really is a simple design fix for the movement manufacturer if they choose to do it. I'm not sure if you are familiar with RICOH watches and movements, but on some of their watches, they have a pushbutton date adjust, rather than via the crown, even when using the same movement calibre. When RICOH watches have this pushbutton, the crown only has 1 position and the way RICOH does this is they fit a different lever setting spring. This component, with one or two positions, is a simple design change and should then be manufactured and fitted according to the properties of the watch in question. I don't believe it's a cost issue. I think that the movement/watch manufacturer thinks that this won't bother us. But this is the kind of detail we look for, right? Best Regards from the UK!! PS - when will you start doing you watch pricing comparisons to also include Pounds Sterling?
Good stuff again. I doubt there was much choice about producing for the state . Like my Marine Klassic Roman 40 no date very much.Discrete logo,timeless dial with blued hands,TOP movement. Excellent customer service. Coming up to our Rememberance Day my father and his comrades don't seem to hold any grudges and have moved on .
Hey Tim, I'm glad to learn about a watch company previously unknown to me, particularly one that makes pieces so easy-on-the-eyes, as the one featured here. Unrelated to the video, I'd like to ask if you know of similar watches to the Straton Curve Chrono. I'm a big fan of the marriage between brushed and matte metal on the case, its oval shape, & look of the 'tucked' lugs. I especially fell in love with the green dial version. That being said, I think the watch is unreasonably priced, & I'm not a fan of the meca-q movement. This is not the first time I discover a watch maker via your channel, so I'm hoping you can lend a hand on this horological hunt. Fellow commenters are also encouraged to voice their opinions!
Would you prefer the automatic or the manual winding one? The price is the same, actually the automatic is a bit cheaper, can it be that the manual one is higher grade than the automatic one?
odd... I bought my Stowa Flieger few months ago and it has the first position deactivated. maybe Stowa heard feedback and implemented this on the newer made ones like mine? Anyway, great review. at the end of the day, it's a watch with historic design. Personally don't think too much about it. It's just a watch after all
I'm a bit of a fence sitter on the war time subject, but as an Englishman I can't criticise too heavily when I have owned and loved a bmw. A superb car.
Nice video and would be an interesting series. A watch like this wouldn't be a problem in my opinion, a lot of fashion goods(jackets and boots for example) are inspired by historical military products. Wearing a real beobachtungsuhr would maybe be a bigger problem to some
I have both Stowa & Laco...love them! On the side note: if you are Watch enthusiast, don't mix politics & hobby. Watches are just watches, period! Cheers...
Don't forget their marine designs. Very nice, too. Part of the larger appearance of the b-uhr watch despite its 40 mm diameter is due to not having a sloped chapter ring and having a narrow bezel. Gives you a 34.5 mm diameter dial. Love the blued hands. Yes, that price is a bit much for a simple watch, considering I put together a very close replica for around $250 with a very nice Miyota 9xxx series. You could also grab a San Martin on eBay and upgrade with an ETA 2836 (next project?) My own moral conflict with the the watch is that I don't feel super comfortable buying one from a German mfr with war production history, especially when the price seems out of line, like Laco at $400+ with an asian movement. For me it is more about the wearing and enjoying design of the watch, so I buy it and additional parts from a nation known for it positive support of human rights.... China! So, yes, it's something we have to decide for ourselves. Now, what to do about my Krups coffee maker? And our dessert in the USA, German Chocolate cake. And Bosch spark plug made by... the Bosch. On a serious note, I really appreciate your sharing your father's story with us. No one wins in these conflicts except the industry titans with Swiss bank accounts. Kind regards, Mark
Mine is a no date and has no position 1. Their site also says they remove this for no date watches...not sure why yours has one could well have been an error?
I don't have an Instagram account and I don't want to get one but I would like to see more on TH-cam. Stowa is a great watch and you would take the 40mm. You can't test them in a shop, so I wasn't not sure.
Dear Tim, Thanks again for another interesting Video. Suggestion? Since you started with Pforzheim and you mentioned the Black Forrest, why do not do a video about another very interesting company from Schramberg? They also had a very moving history ;-) Interesting to see what you come up next for the second part. BR, MIguel
I consider the “moral issue” to be completely addressed via consumerism. Anyone is free to choose not to spend their money on any German, Japanese, Italian or American product. Three of my great uncles served in the 101st Airborne and U.S. Army and saw action during WW 2; two of them in Germany. Yet I was raised, by my family, including my uncles, to appreciate craftsmanship and masterful engineering as an affirmation of life. Yes, in it’s day, a B-Uhr watch was a war tool that contributed to death and destruction. Today, however, it is practically antiquated as a war tool. I don’t think there is anything wrong with appreciating it as a beautiful object. As an American, in fact, issues of our own Civil War in the 1860s raise more pressing “moral issues” than do WW 2.
I see no real moral issue and I was born in Coventry. Why? a) The Luftwaffe themselves were not Nazis. b) There is a history of honour when it comes to pilots on all sides that stemmed from the Great War. Also with a high death toll.on all sides, pilots in general are regarded as courageous or heroic even. c) High ranking officers in the Luftwaffe took part in attempts to assassinate Hitler and other high ranking Nazis. d) In terms of death as a result of bombing, bombing was conducted on both sides. More died in the British firebombing of German cities by RAF bomber command than those killed by both atom bombs dropped on Japan. They say history is written by the victor, in some respects this is true. The bottom line here is that the bombing was controversial on both sides, but just about qualified as within terms of war, its terms of engagement. The pilots were not monsters or war criminals, they were brave men on both sides. We might not give the same latitude to those who ordered them.intk battle, but that is another matter. In any case - it does not pertain to the Nazis. e) These were historic instruments, they are not related to the faults of men. They were objects to accurately measure time. On a separate note: The sins of the father are not to be visited upon the son. Modern Germans have done no wrong, Stowa is a modern company today. It is run by modern Germans who have no fault or tie to any questionable part of the past. To take a watch and say this is terrible...Mmm. Do we do the same with a modern Porsche? How about Japanese goods? The British were making pocket watches whilst they were imperialists, should we ignore pocket watches? Context is everything. The watches are good. We are all good here :)
Hey Tim! Nimmst du Hanhart auch mal mit rein? Ist ja auch aus dem Schwarzwald. Soweit ich informiert bin, wurden manche SS-Piloten damit ausgestattet... Weiters war Steve McQueen war ja ein megafan von dieser Firma. Daher denke ich dass es gerechtfertigt wäre! Lg aus Salzburg, Clemens
Thank you for attempting to address the elephant in the room. I think it is a personal choice. As a younger man I owned Porsche and VW, and I wore Hugo Boss…but as I matured I made a decision not to support any companies with a nazi history. I have many German friends and I do not hold anything against this current generation but for me it is a choice not to support these brands. I am somewhat hypocritical though because I love flieger watches and still have an IWC but I would not buy a Stowa or any other brand with this connection. Thanks Tim your channel is great
Thanks for talking about this moral aspect! I also like the Flieger watch style for its simplicity and boldness and I always appreciate historic connection of a piece. But this being a watch type used by the Nazis also gives me mixed feelings. I think Stowa makes it pretty clear that they just keep their own history alive by also having a reference to the first true Bauhaus watch in their collection. Nazis hated the Bauhaus ideas. Does this make other brands which don't have such a thing, like Laco, Nazi brands? Not at all! Nobody could expect them to not keep a connection to their own past. You also don't blame VW for having their new Beetle/Käfer. But if you want a classic Flieger-style watch and you don't want any connection to Germany at the time, you could always get a remake of a non-German model, like a Hamilton or an IWC for example. Or you could go for a more modern Flieger-inspired design.
Tim, I commend your decision to address the 'moral issue', but not sure why you need to. A watch is not a weapon or a symbol of any ideology, it's just something that tells the time. Yes of course there are 'military' watches, but they still only tell the time - just with large clear markings. It's interesting to note that amongst gun collectors (mostly in the US) German WWII rifles, pistols and especially machine guns are highly valued. Actual weapons that may have killed tens or even hundreds of people. So I feel those complaining about watches are looking in the wrong place.
David B , I suspect anyone complaining about a watch, especially a watch with a sterile dial, is merely looking for an excuse to be outraged. The logical extension is to be outraged with German, Japanese and Italian cars and products. Pizza, sushi and lager beer - the horror (I’m obviously making a mocking sentence here). Time for everyone to not forget but, move forward with a proper understanding of historical context and it’s relevance to today’s world.
I am from Greece, Nazi's destroyed Greece in W.W.2. in every aspect literally, but i am struggling to make the connection with watches and what Nazi's did 74 years back. After all the delicate manner you handled this Tim leave no room for misunderstanding... Thank you.
I appreciate your honest attempt to deal with the moral question. The fine line in my opinion is in the context and not the watch itself. As a second generation survivor of the holocaust I am not offended at all by inanimate objects, especially those that help us, born after the war, widen our perspective. I have an IWC gold pocket watch given to my murdered grandfather by his father in law (my great grandfather) for his wedding with my grandmother in 1936. I will have it with me on my eldest son's wedding later this month, with deep emotional meaning for me, while it is just a watch for someone else. The same goes for the watch you presented so well in this video.
Do you have any suggestions for Part 2? Which company could be next?
Laco, surely?
Archimede.
Dornblüth & Sohn would be a good choice.
Well, more a suggestion for a series: Pforzheim seems to be one area with a few interesting companies - as is Glashütte with at least two. That's potentially six further parts right there, I think.
Damasko please
Like you Tim, I don’t see swastikas, lightning bolts or glorification of a certain odious ideology, I see a finely crafted timepiece. It’s just a watch in my humble opinion.
Totally agree with you.
Some amazingly brilliant people made this watch
There's no bad ideology inside this watch, just good pure good and all the bad stuff was left outside of the watch factory.
It's simply a historic design that is still appealing. Also, the watches produced today are a far cry from the watches produced for the German troops - the size, the movements, sapphire crystal, blue treatment on hands and screws, a transparent back allowing viewing of the movement. The WWII fliegers were mass produced, the present day watches by Stowa, Laco, IWC, A. Lange, etc, are fine examples of the watchmaking craft.
@@balesjothe craftsmanship of the originals is much more impressive than the cheap modern ones, which aren’t even real pilot watches.
An eloquent and yet modest take on WWII memorabilia. You handled this delicate subject with sensitivity.
Good on you for facing the "moral dilemma" of the technology - STOWA makes good timepieces.
There is no moral issue. If you can't seperate a watch from the crimes commit in WW2 then you are very immature. I would like to see you make a tutorial on how to pick a suit.
1.: I own this watch since over a year and I love it. It is more or less daily on my wrist. Very versatile and the quality is brilliant.
2.: There are many other watches which were worn by soldiers who killed other people... therefore many other watches should be criticised as well. Many of the luxuary timepieces have been worn by criminals and drug-lords and still people love the watches and don't think about crimes and so on...
So calm down and enjoy the watches and the hobby!
By the way: Please contunie with Sinn ;-)
Beste Grüße,
Frankie
Good video well done, nice honest opinion on the past and a great watch.
Hands down, no pun intended, Tim is the best of the many watch reviewers on youtube.
Love all your reviews Tim! That Telecaster in the back got me from the start! ✌🏻😀
Thank you, and your observation is very close: Stratocaster ;-)
@@CasebackWatches ye, couldnt see the entire headstock. And if thats an upright piano, maybe it could be an elegant background with the keyboard lid open. Fits the topic and your attire ;) Look fwd to your future content.
Concern over the "moral implications" of wearing a flieger watch is a symptom of too much time spent looking through the wrong end of a telescope.
That’s like being concerned about Volkswagen, Porsche, BMW, and that’s effed.
Don't buy an IWC then..
@@HeavyDragoon Too late.
@@HeavyDragoon reading comprehension, friend. The OP is on our side. Relax.
@@vmarsch btw what can you say about Dekla watches?
thank you for the delicate and acurate analisys of the Germean history and watch fenomenon.
I agree and empathise with all you said. ( Scottish living in France ).
Thanks for watching!
yes I saw Stowa at the windup watch fair in new york. I was impressed by the quality and styling of the pieces
Great review. First review of flieger watches I have seen touching the moral dilemma. Thank you for bringing this into the light
I love the Stowa Classic 40, I want to get one with the date though! Great watch and review!!
Hi Tim. With me you were talking to the converted, I purchased my Stowa Flieger 40mm about three weeks ago after much deliberation. I was prepared to spend considerably more but in the end I couldn't see the point, this is a great everyday watch at what I consider a very reasonable price. Love your work by the way, keep them coming.
History is interesting.. and there to learn from so we don't make the same mistakes twice.. we are here because we appreciate a nicely made watches...
Love Flieger styled watches and love Stowa as a brand/mfg.
Your apologetic speech of 3 reasons to consider others feelings was tastefully done, as always. We can’t move to the future without acknowledging the past. As the human race, we have done and unfortunately, will do ignorant and vile things on and to this world. But to talk about it is to not forget about it. The danger comes when we forget about it or not speak of it... then we are doomed to repeat history.
Thank you for your hard and tasteful work my friend!
Just from the standpoint of a person who likes the art on crafting hand watches I absolutely adore the class and minimalist/vintage look of this hand watch, and I really enjoyed your video plenty of interesting historical facts and technical information. I hope can afford one or two of these legit Flieger Watches in the future. Thanks for your content.
Excellent work, Tim. This is the most intelligent watch channel of them all (& often very funny, too!).
I really like when you talk about WW2 watches please do more
Thanks for the review Tim. RE: the moral aspect of buying a watch that is an homage to a German WWII pilots model, I personally don't see a problem. My family is Jewish, so anything Nazi related is a sensitive topic for us. Despite this, I had an Archimede Flieger that is of a similar design to your Stowa that I gifted to my son and he wears it most of the time. It is no more a problem morally than someone buying a Volkswagen, or maybe a Mitsubishi. That said, in my minds, the moral aspect of owning a homage to something from that period of history has to do with why you are collecting such an item and is it part of a larger interest in collecting Nazi memorabilia. If your interest is watches, or Fliegers, or even WWII vintage Fliegers, than I don't see a problem. When would I say you have a problem? I have a story.
Some years ago, I was taking care of my father's estate in Florida and I needed transportation to the airport. Surprisingly often, these airport limo guys talk about themselves, this limo driver was no exception. This guy started telling my his passion, which was WWII German aviation. His personal favorite was the Messerschmitt ME 109. So, he tells me, he has a room full of stuff related to German fighters and bombers from that era.. He assured me he was in no way a Nazi, but nonetheless had a great admiration for the technical achievements of the Luftwaffe.
Frankly I was not so sure. If the guy told me that he was interested in WWII aviation and as part of that, he collected memorabilia from both the RAF, US Army Air Corps, and Luftwaffe, I would be less perpelexed. But just Nazi aviation memorabilia? To quote Shakespeare, "The lady doth protest too much." My bet is, he collects all kinds of Nazi memorabilia and frankly, this is a collection I have no interest in seeing, or even hearing about.
Greetings from Australia! I have the limited edition 90th anniversary Stowa 41mm Klassik Flieger 6498. I love it! It is one tough looking watch and the movement is a joy to see.
Excellent video. I am very glad I ordered mine sterile with no date or branding like yours. It’s a tool watch as you said
Tim- when my wife asked me why I bought a Lange Datograph , I replied I was protesting the Swiss for being the banker of the Nazis .
Im from Rotterdam and I've just bought a flieger 40mm. Cheers!
Good choice!
Hey Tim! You are doing a great job with your videos! Thanks for all the information and entertainment!
It was good to hear you speak on the moral side of these types of watches. I often consider them in the same regard as Leica - tools used for support of the war, but no longer regarded as such.
Or Mercedes-Benz, or Volkswagen, or Auto Union (Audi today) or Zeiss, etc.
well done for talking about this head on. i am from England (Birmingham) and after all this time , it is in the past. England has had wars with numerous countries overs the centuries and they seem to be forgotten. People here seem to enjoy driving expensive German cars without any problems with the past.
Cheers for pointing out the ghost date thing. Hate that, and it hadn't occurred to me despite knowing it's a 2824, duh. Happily these can be ordered as manual wind ... though I don't think they're any thinner that way, which would be nice. Or it can be had with the date window if one wanted ... that. Anyway, I may get one, perhaps the Verus version. They seem like actual watchfolk there at Stowa, and it shows. And I need a banger, which is one step above beater. I like the SARX035 too, but they're impossible to find, and this seems like more watch for similar numbers.
You have done a very good job of addressing the german watch history. I personally think it is a little too sensitive and far fetched for people to attack you yourself for reviewing watches, but you did a very good job. I look at them as I look at BMWs or Mercedes. Great quality and tradition of german engineering.
Thank you. looking forward to the series unfolding.
I was born in Earlsdon in Coventry in 1966, I love your Stowa wrist watch and want you to enjoy wearing it. My grandparents were in Coventry during the Luftwaffe bombings so I know all about it. I drive a BMW convertible so that must tell you something about what I think about German people. I am at this moment wearing a Tavannes Submarine, silver import hallmarks date it to 1917 and she's keeping good time (ok she gains 3 minutes in 24 hours lol). I now want a Flieger wrist watch after watching your video
Another well thought out and presented video Tim! Another aspect to justifying the conflicting feelings of wearing a "WW2 inspired" watch is to realize that, although the opposing characters and the motives of that war were horrendous and defied all human decency, there were many things that were developed and used that became part of everyday post-war life for the rest of the world. One example is the Saturn rocket developed by the German scientist, Wernher von Braun, which propelled American men to the moon. Also, if we are to judge a particular watch style as "immoral" or "as a homage to evil" then we must hold accountable all the other watch brands that come from the venerable Bauhaus. Consider also that we should ban all German chocolate cake, Volkswagons, X-rays, gummy bears and even the Easter Bunny!
I'm glad you touched base on the "Moral aspect" of the Flieger watch. Seems like everyone else that reviews these watches and is German act like there is no dark side to this historic watch. What the Nazi war machine did was terrible...no doubt. But we shouldn't blame items or the current German people for what the Nazi party did. Just like we should blame Jews/Romans(Italians) for killing Jesus. We shouldn't blame VW/Porsche/Mercedes Benz..etc for making vehicles during WWII. So many other companies from around the world used the war to make money including the US. As for the Flieger watch...they are simple, great looking and engineered to work. I love the design and am going to buy that watch because of it technical aspect.
I think you have a pretty good balance Tim.I am of course biased toward more guitar outros but would happily watch other stuff as well.
I would love to see more about tayloring and menswear! A video series on the leather briefcase would also be incredible!
I own a Stowa and I gotta say, they have great leather straps.
I have a flieger klassik 40mm handaufzug. Love it. It's a great daily wear piece.
Would absolutely LOVE to have a Glashutte Original Senator Chronograph. Black dial. So handsome.
German engineering should be appreciated and world needs such engineering marvel
Love the timing of this, literally just bought a Partitio last week
Great review - your videos are some of the most intelligent in the watch world. In re. the moral dilemma, we live in an absurdly sensitive era. People can always find something to offend them, don't worry about it. Remember that one of the most popular autos in the US and UK during the 60s - only 15-25 years after the war ended - was the VW Beetle, which was actually designed by F. Porsche for Hitler. I think Stowa Fliegers can get a pass 75 years later. Also note that one of the original flieger manufacturers contracted by the Luftwaffe was IWC, which also made watches for the allies - they're just mechanical tools, no moral issue at all. Laco nachste, bitte.
Not to mention Wernher von Braun, the Nazi aeronautical engineer that later became the father of Nasa space program. No comments!
I love german watches .. thanks for the videos Tim, alway great. and yeah i think you it would be no harm branching out on topics for your channel
Another great video and a lovely watch.
5:35 "no fancy crap at all" - and that's why I got a flieger last year.
I don't have the Stowa (nice watch) but a similar one from Aristo.
Great idea! great execution!
Ha...I just finished reading their wonderful book/catalog last evening. A very interesting history of the company and their designs.
Nice, honest video. Thank you. I just feel war, esp. that war, was destructive enough, so let's not further destroy that which has survived it, in this case, Stowa aviation watches. I do fully understand that others may view it differently and that is quite OK. I appreciate your honesty in tacking the issue. Folks have made similar issues with regard to Panerai. But I think we should celebrate the military virtues these watches convey in an effort to come together and move on.
Was für ein cooler Mann mit Verstand!
Nice video Tim I personally like the hand winding version of this watch one reason is that the movment fills all of the case as in my opinion it should do I have actually built a a watch like this using a 6497 movment with very nearly the same dial for under £300 pounds it does not have sapphire glass but looks very good .
Tim, you as a German, which brand would you most recommend to buy? Stowa or Laco? Which brand is closest to the watch used in WWII?
Simple answer: Both. They are very close quality wise and in regards of the design. I like the Stowa name more, but that's only my taste. I would concentrate first on the model and then on the brand. So A vs B dial etc. and then you can figure out which company delivers that model with the details you like most at the best price.
(But stay away from the Miyotas ;-)
Thank you for your comments, Tim. About the criticism about the watch and its history, I can say that according to those people's logic, no one should buy Hugo Boss, BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Porsche, Volkswagen, Mont Blanc, Bayer and many other brands, but that's not what happens. Oh, come on! We're living in a different time and we are not WWII people. If you want to use a flieger, use it! Simple as that!
Very interesting thoughts Tim. Personally I would buy a Focke-Wulf watch if I could.
Tim I am in total agreement with you on your views pertaining to the WW2 history of the Luftwaffen. It's history. History is for a civilised society to learn from, so that good can come out of it. As for Germany today so much good and benefit has come out.
Both my grandfather (He was killed in WW2) and my beloved father were smack in the middle of WW2. My father told me what happened, he made sure we learned about it and be positive.
As for Flieger watches from Germany, I choose Baumuster B from Laco. The legibility is No1. I can understand why the switch from Baumuster A to Baumuster B.
For a Mission Critical Timer I chose the SINN U2 SDR EZM5 case made with deutscher u boot stahl.
I appreciate your honesty and your watch channel. I am looking to march forward in time with time. Thank you.
Great review Tim as always and a really great subject in a real tool watch in the form of a Pilots watch. I really like the Stowa models because you can also customize your watch with a choice of movements, with or without logos, date or no date. I would always chose the no date manual wind movement which is usually the ETA 2801. I think Laco would be a good choice for part 2. Thanks again Tim and keep up the good work.
Personally I dont see a morale issue with German made time pieces, I have been collecting "Dirty Dozen" time pieces with my now up daughters at flea markets for over 15 years & just got a nice full collection at Auction. Many people collect various types of miltary items Tim.
BTW the Flieger Klassik 40 is such a strap queen. You can put it on anything and it will look good - shark mesh, alligator, crocodile, ostrich, lizard, NATO, Zulu, calfskin, two-stitch vintage Italian, shell cordovan...anything you can think to try will probably work.
I absolutely love that watch and would like to purchase one in the future, thanks Tim for another great video and including other topics is fine with me.
i agree the germans make some of the best quality watches...good job tim
Schönes Review einer schön gemachten Uhr. Du bist glaub ich, der erste Reviewer der auch die dunkle Seite dieser Militäruhren aus dem 2ten Weltkrieg anspricht. Wenn jemand Militaria oder Militäruhren aus der Zeit verabscheut oder als Nogo empfindet, kann ich das Nachvollziehen und natürlich respektieren. Schlußendlich ist es aber nur eine schöne Uhr die die Zeit anzeigt, sonst nichts.
Danke schön. Ja, ich denke auch, dass es da mehrere Sichtweisen gibt, die ihre Berechtigung haben.
I don't care about any moral issues. I just like German watches with interesting history behind them.
I enjoy my Flieger Classic. Not sure about the Antea. Next one might be the Marine Original.
Can you please set the watch to 11:56 then go to position one on the crown and turn it? Just to see if the watch movement crash? Thank you
You ask me to ruin my watch for information purposes? :-D No!
Caseback Watches thank you for the video anyway! I would love to get a stowa myself! And this dateless feature is not an issue for me at all. Vielen dank!
My parents were both in the armed services during the war as were 4 of my uncles. The two on my father's side did not survive the war. My wife's father was forced into the German army and she was a baby in Berlin during the blockade so I have a lot of history with WWII even though I was born after the war. I bear no malice towards Stowa; they likely had no choice about producing watches for the Luftwaffe. I find the 36mm Stowa marine classic very appealing.
god I LOVE this watch I want it
Hans, bring me ze Fliegerwatch! Jk, lovely pieces and nicely explained and reviewed!
for the next session? LACO of course!! the best version of fliegers!
Love your videos, Tim! Would definitely like to see more style videos. Also, have you had much experience with Certina watches? They don't seem to get much coverage, but I recently picked up a vintage Bristol 235 and it's become a favourite.
Excellent video Tim!
Very informative! I totally agree with your sensitive assessment of why we should still wear war time inspired and designed watches. Looking beyond watches and looking at something very familiar to us all, the BMW logo for example represents a spinning propeller (as they were a manufacturer of aircraft engines, up until the end of WWII) and if we are not happy with war time significant companies and their contributions, then we would really need to make some big changes in our lives to not be seen to support them. Everything must be kept in context and we must have a sensitive viewpoint about it. You explained this well!
As for the 2 position crown/stem setting of the ETA movement on the STOWA watch, when watches don't have a date indication, this really is a simple design fix for the movement manufacturer if they choose to do it. I'm not sure if you are familiar with RICOH watches and movements, but on some of their watches, they have a pushbutton date adjust, rather than via the crown, even when using the same movement calibre. When RICOH watches have this pushbutton, the crown only has 1 position and the way RICOH does this is they fit a different lever setting spring. This component, with one or two positions, is a simple design change and should then be manufactured and fitted according to the properties of the watch in question. I don't believe it's a cost issue. I think that the movement/watch manufacturer thinks that this won't bother us. But this is the kind of detail we look for, right?
Best Regards from the UK!!
PS - when will you start doing you watch pricing comparisons to also include Pounds Sterling?
A common misconception about the BMW logo en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW#Logo
Good stuff again. I doubt there was much choice about producing for the state . Like my Marine Klassic Roman 40 no date very much.Discrete logo,timeless dial with blued hands,TOP movement. Excellent customer service. Coming up to our Rememberance Day my father and his comrades don't seem to hold any grudges and have moved on .
WoW-⁷W!ell Done! Informative, genuine and informative.
Hey Tim, I'm glad to learn about a watch company previously unknown to me, particularly one that makes pieces so easy-on-the-eyes, as the one featured here.
Unrelated to the video, I'd like to ask if you know of similar watches to the Straton Curve Chrono.
I'm a big fan of the marriage between brushed and matte metal on the case, its oval shape, & look of the 'tucked' lugs. I especially fell in love with the green dial version.
That being said, I think the watch is unreasonably priced, & I'm not a fan of the meca-q movement.
This is not the first time I discover a watch maker via your channel, so I'm hoping you can lend a hand on this horological hunt. Fellow commenters are also encouraged to voice their opinions!
Would you prefer the automatic or the manual winding one? The price is the same, actually the automatic is a bit cheaper, can it be that the manual one is higher grade than the automatic one?
Automatic although it's less correct if you consider the role model.
odd... I bought my Stowa Flieger few months ago and it has the first position deactivated. maybe Stowa heard feedback and implemented this on the newer made ones like mine? Anyway, great review. at the end of the day, it's a watch with historic design. Personally don't think too much about it. It's just a watch after all
I think so. I've acquired a Marine classic a few months ago and the first position is deactivated.
I'm a bit of a fence sitter on the war time subject, but as an Englishman I can't criticise too heavily when I have owned and loved a bmw. A superb car.
Nice video and would be an interesting series. A watch like this wouldn't be a problem in my opinion, a lot of fashion goods(jackets and boots for example) are inspired by historical military products. Wearing a real beobachtungsuhr would maybe be a bigger problem to some
I just bought one of these used on ebay, I can't wait!. Oh and I find it about as controversial as buying a new VW, BMW or Mercedes Benz...
I have both Stowa & Laco...love them!
On the side note: if you are Watch enthusiast, don't mix politics & hobby. Watches are just watches, period!
Cheers...
Its all cool man,my favourite is the film The boat in German about the sub .
How about Tutima.
Don't forget their marine designs. Very nice, too. Part of the larger appearance of the b-uhr watch despite its 40 mm diameter is due to not having a sloped chapter ring and having a narrow bezel. Gives you a 34.5 mm diameter dial. Love the blued hands. Yes, that price is a bit much for a simple watch, considering I put together a very close replica for around $250 with a very nice Miyota 9xxx series. You could also grab a San Martin on eBay and upgrade with an ETA 2836 (next project?) My own moral conflict with the the watch is that I don't feel super comfortable buying one from a German mfr with war production history, especially when the price seems out of line, like Laco at $400+ with an asian movement. For me it is more about the wearing and enjoying design of the watch, so I buy it and additional parts from a nation known for it positive support of human rights.... China! So, yes, it's something we have to decide for ourselves. Now, what to do about my Krups coffee maker? And our dessert in the USA, German Chocolate cake. And Bosch spark plug made by... the Bosch. On a serious note, I really appreciate your sharing your father's story with us. No one wins in these conflicts except the industry titans with Swiss bank accounts. Kind regards, Mark
Mine is a no date and has no position 1. Their site also says they remove this for no date watches...not sure why yours has one could well have been an error?
Older version I think.
I don't have an Instagram account and I don't want to get one but I would like to see more on TH-cam. Stowa is a great watch and you would take the 40mm. You can't test them in a shop, so I wasn't not sure.
Nice vest!
Love the video. Being African American I like these quality grade time pieces regardless of the history.
Dear Tim,
Thanks again for another interesting Video.
Suggestion? Since you started with Pforzheim and you mentioned the Black Forrest, why do not do a video about another very interesting company from Schramberg? They also had a very moving history ;-)
Interesting to see what you come up next for the second part.
BR,
MIguel
I consider the “moral issue” to be completely addressed via consumerism. Anyone is free to choose not to spend their money on any German, Japanese, Italian or American product. Three of my great uncles served in the 101st Airborne and U.S. Army and saw action during WW 2; two of them in Germany. Yet I was raised, by my family, including my uncles, to appreciate craftsmanship and masterful engineering as an affirmation of life. Yes, in it’s day, a B-Uhr watch was a war tool that contributed to death and destruction. Today, however, it is practically antiquated as a war tool. I don’t think there is anything wrong with appreciating it as a beautiful object. As an American, in fact, issues of our own Civil War in the 1860s raise more pressing “moral issues” than do WW 2.
Isnt that an A-Type, the B-Type would have minutes in the outer ring, mainly for navigators.
No need to apologize for the sins of the ancestors. We should judge every man or woman for their actions, not their fathers. Great content and topic.
I see no real moral issue and I was born in Coventry. Why?
a) The Luftwaffe themselves were not Nazis.
b) There is a history of honour when it comes to pilots on all sides that stemmed from the Great War. Also with a high death toll.on all sides, pilots in general are regarded as courageous or heroic even.
c) High ranking officers in the Luftwaffe took part in attempts to assassinate Hitler and other high ranking Nazis.
d) In terms of death as a result of bombing, bombing was conducted on both sides. More died in the British firebombing of German cities by RAF bomber command than those killed by both atom bombs dropped on Japan.
They say history is written by the victor, in some respects this is true.
The bottom line here is that the bombing was controversial on both sides, but just about qualified as within terms of war, its terms of engagement.
The pilots were not monsters or war criminals, they were brave men on both sides. We might not give the same latitude to those who ordered them.intk battle, but that is another matter. In any case - it does not pertain to the Nazis.
e) These were historic instruments, they are not related to the faults of men. They were objects to accurately measure time.
On a separate note:
The sins of the father are not to be visited upon the son. Modern Germans have done no wrong, Stowa is a modern company today. It is run by modern Germans who have no fault or tie to any questionable part of the past.
To take a watch and say this is terrible...Mmm. Do we do the same with a modern Porsche? How about Japanese goods? The British were making pocket watches whilst they were imperialists, should we ignore pocket watches?
Context is everything.
The watches are good. We are all good here :)
Totally agree and I'm from Poland. Cheers
Hey Tim! Nimmst du Hanhart auch mal mit rein? Ist ja auch aus dem Schwarzwald. Soweit ich informiert bin, wurden manche SS-Piloten damit ausgestattet... Weiters war Steve McQueen war ja ein megafan von dieser Firma. Daher denke ich dass es gerechtfertigt wäre!
Lg aus Salzburg,
Clemens
Thank you for attempting to address the elephant in the room. I think it is a personal choice. As a younger man I owned Porsche and VW, and I wore Hugo Boss…but as I matured I made a decision not to support any companies with a nazi history. I have many German friends and I do not hold anything against this current generation but for me it is a choice not to support these brands. I am somewhat hypocritical though because I love flieger watches and still have an IWC but I would not buy a Stowa or any other brand with this connection. Thanks Tim your channel is great
Thank you!
Thanks for talking about this moral aspect! I also like the Flieger watch style for its simplicity and boldness and I always appreciate historic connection of a piece. But this being a watch type used by the Nazis also gives me mixed feelings. I think Stowa makes it pretty clear that they just keep their own history alive by also having a reference to the first true Bauhaus watch in their collection. Nazis hated the Bauhaus ideas. Does this make other brands which don't have such a thing, like Laco, Nazi brands? Not at all! Nobody could expect them to not keep a connection to their own past. You also don't blame VW for having their new Beetle/Käfer. But if you want a classic Flieger-style watch and you don't want any connection to Germany at the time, you could always get a remake of a non-German model, like a Hamilton or an IWC for example. Or you could go for a more modern Flieger-inspired design.
Nice watch.
Im German and i see no issue !
No need to apologize/explian your self. This is about watches. That is it.
I bet they wear two watches. They obviously have too much time on their hands.
Tim, I commend your decision to address the 'moral issue', but not sure why you need to. A watch is not a weapon or a symbol of any ideology, it's just something that tells the time. Yes of course there are 'military' watches, but they still only tell the time - just with large clear markings.
It's interesting to note that amongst gun collectors (mostly in the US) German WWII rifles, pistols and especially machine guns are highly valued. Actual weapons that may have killed tens or even hundreds of people. So I feel those complaining about watches are looking in the wrong place.
David B , I suspect anyone complaining about a watch, especially a watch with a sterile dial, is merely looking for an excuse to be outraged. The logical extension is to be outraged with German, Japanese and Italian cars and products. Pizza, sushi and lager beer - the horror (I’m obviously making a mocking sentence here). Time for everyone to not forget but, move forward with a proper understanding of historical context and it’s relevance to today’s world.
What is your wristsize? Mine ist 5,9 inch. Would you recommend me the 36 mm version?
6,7. 36 mm should fit.
I am from Greece, Nazi's destroyed Greece in W.W.2. in every aspect literally, but i am struggling to make the connection with watches and what Nazi's did 74 years back. After all the delicate manner you handled this Tim leave no room for misunderstanding... Thank you.
I appreciate your honest attempt to deal with the moral question. The fine line in my opinion is in the context and not the watch itself. As a second generation survivor of the holocaust I am not offended at all by inanimate objects, especially those that help us, born after the war, widen our perspective. I have an IWC gold pocket watch given to my murdered grandfather by his father in law (my great grandfather) for his wedding with my grandmother in 1936. I will have it with me on my eldest son's wedding later this month, with deep emotional meaning for me, while it is just a watch for someone else. The same goes for the watch you presented so well in this video.
" As a second generation survivor of the holocaust" What the hell does this even mean?
Bob, "Second generation survivor" means my parents survived the holocaust. We are also psychologically affected but in a different way.