LEARN to deal with RUNAWAY TRIM, IMPROPER TRIM SETTINGS, or ANYTHING, that tries to fly the airplane
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ก.ค. 2024
- One of the things I focus on in the first 25 hours of flying is the proper use of trim. Watch me show how to use it properly.
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🎵 Music by Michael Bizar
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📝 Contents
0:00 - Intro
0:34 - The proper use of trim
1:40 - Practising trim settings
3:10 - Getting distracted
5:18 - Taking off with the wrong trim settings
5:56 - Mess with the trim
6:33 - The Lindbergh Reference
7:31 - Wrap up
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As a student, I had a take off with my instructor where the trim was “set” for take off, but required a lot of pressure to rotate and hold the nose up. We later discovered that the trim indicator was broken. From that point forward my pre-flight includes checking the position of the trim tab when set to neutral.
This is a great reminder. I got in a battle with trim on a student solo when I failed to disable the GFC 500 electronic stability and protection (ESP) before getting into slow flight. It took over when I heard “autopilot engaged”. By the time I figured out how to fully disengage it, I was full trim forward and I’d lost 500 ft. So it was work to hold it while I unraveled the trim. I am forever cognizant of the trim and autopilot now.
Yikes, Avionics taking over the airplane. How scary. I will be on the lookout for that. I am a student pilot.
Similar situation to when you go around with the airplane trimmed to land. You have to apply considerably amount of force to maintain a climb without excessively pitching up. Great video as always!
I don't trim on landing for that reason don't want alot of pressure on go around. Natural trim on landing for me
@@jeffdo9195 As a female student pilot flying the 172, I need to trim for landing as it takes a gentle touch flaring and letting the nose go down gently. If I do not, it seems my landings are not as soft. When I do a go around, I know to push down on the yoke and have practiced that and can deal with that in a 172. I had to push pretty hard but I am able to. I trim when I can. Maybe this will be a different case in the 182. Wondering if I can even fly a 182 from the stories I hear about how heavy the nose is and I am sure it takes a lot more force to hold the nose down if you have to do a go around. I am human and could forget to reset my trim or have a go around. I am not sure If I can handle that in a 182?
On the sim i apply a little nose down trim after landing to stop the airplane rotating too early by itself just before i apply take off power when i go around the pressure to push nose down isn't as much P.s i am not a real pilot just a sim pilot then some minor trim while climbing after take off solves the issue and relieves pressure
Reminds me of the time I was on my way to my Commercial checkride in a C172 RG departing runway 25R at KDVT. After take off I was assigned a midfield-downwind departure from the North to the South crossing over the runways. Everything was fine until I rolled out on the downwind heading and then the airplane seemed to have developed a mind of it's own, trying constantly and firmly to turn toward North. I realized I was fighting the controls trying to hold an easterly heading. After a few sweaty moments, I realized that the auto-pilot switch was in the 'on' position and the airplane was trying to turn toward the preset northerly direction. I'd missed this during my preflight checks in my nervousness to get to the checkride destination, KCHD. Not sure why this didn't become apparent until I was on the downwind leg, but I guess that's a good thing.
I'd never tried to use the autopilot on any airplane so equipped earlier so I was unfamiliar with the whole thing. I somehow managed to figure out what the problem was fairly early but this little experience isn't something I'll ever forget.
Thanks for this video. Especially important after the fatal crash at KMYF with suspected runaway trim. It’s important that we know what needs to be done to compensate for errors in trim, user error or not. Great video as always.
Theee things that I always say and do before take off is. Trim, Fuel , Flaps. It has saved me a couple of times to be properly configured. Jason you said it best “Real World Distractions”
Would love to see a video on unusual attitude recovery/training.
I did a 20 degree flap short field take off in a 182T with trim set for take off. That nose went up so quickly and before I knew it we were getting below VX in the climb. While this is all happening I am adding a ton of nose down force and mashing the electric trim. Was able to recover but I was sweating after that one. It was pretty spooky. Will be having a bit of nose down trim next time I do a short field in that airplane.
Great Videos ...Thanks
Excellent video! Very important. Perfect simulation with the distractions.
Great presentation. Thanks
Very useful aviators !
Good info!!
If you have a Trim Runaway situation such that it makes the Aircraft pitch Nose up aggressively and there's not much you can do to hold it off while you're fast approaching a stall condition, you have one option left and that is to Roll the Aircraft. That will bring the nose down and give you back some pitch control.
I had a situation when I did my pre-takeoff/run up checks. I followed the checklist for the autopilot check but failed to recheck the trim prior to takeoff! When I engaged the autopilot for the check, it moved the elevator via trim as it should to climb to my preset altitude. This in turn “wheeled” the trim full up and I didn’t notice it! As I reached rotation speed it took a god awful amount of forward pressure to prevent a stall. Now I ensure the trim is always checked prior to any takeoff run!
This is an important lesson even for go-arounds and touch-and-go's. Forget to adjust the trim when you apply full throttle and you're going to feel this right away. Have to always remember that airspeed is your #1 priority and that airspeed comes from holding that sight picture. Love this exercise Jason, I've had to do it "accidentally" more than once.
Another great video
As an avionics tech at UAL several decades ago I was a bit surprised to learn about the many logical inputs to stab trim - each of which had the potential to modify stab trim OR even cause runaway. Fast forward several decades and everyone is up in arms over something called MCAS - for me, it was just another input amongst many and I wondered whatever happened to runaway trim awareness and procedures. Thanks for the refresher
I had a faulty trim due to short circuit from radio comms to trim switch .
It required a lot of force to hold for 45 minutia's until landing.
Luckily I had a bungee cord to help take the strain.
but made the mistake to putting in more trim trying to fault find to soon !
Best to not do anything until considered all the options.
Hey Jason, greetings from Indiana. This was a good SBT video. Sometimes its the normal, mundane distractions that cause the most loss of focus, and are the most dangerous. Specially about loved ones. Sterile cockpit applies to single pilot ops too! Maybe you could do a video showing how you teach light touch on the yoke. Blue skies!
I was glad to have a Sr. Instructor onboard the first (and only) time I forgot to check trim before takeoff. I think we had that 172 up to 70+ on the roll before I was able to get it off the ground. Another lesson learned as a low timer.
Great timing with the video, since Garmin just issued a Service Bulletin for the GFC 500 with a runaway trim (elevator) issue.
Jason - had a great time at the Utah Adventure Camp! This video is great and is very timely given Garmin’s new service alert on the GFC500 - Service Alert 22109 Rev A: Automatic Pitch Trim
I just really like the intro music.
Not a pilot, and realistically won't become one, BUT I am addicted to your fantastic, clear, well presented, fascinating, interesting, and beautifully thought out videos. Stay awesome!
Light touch on controls don't just happen with airplanes. I use to be a road instructor for a truck driving school and I had the same problem with students white knuckling the steering wheel. I use to take guys out for their first time and their leg would be shaking over the clutch, lol.
Had a very similar situation on my last lesson where the flaps did not come up on a touch n go. It was very slow going down the runway then suddenly it rotated itself at just above stall speed. It was all I could do to push the nose down. Thankfully my CFI noticed, was able to take control and put it back down onto the runway. I'll never again do a touch n go without looking at the flaps regardless of what the setting is at.
A couple of things…
Know where the Electric Trim CB is in case of a runaway.
Related: Know where the Autopilot CB is.
In aircraft with higher horsepower engines (like the 185), only add 25” of MAP during a go around with full flaps and nose up stab/elevator trim to minimize pitch up until you reduce flaps, gain speed and reset trim.
My mantra prior to takeoff AFTER the Before Takeoff Checklist and while taking the runway:
Flaps (Set for takeoff)
Fuel (Fuel selector, fuel/boost pump, mixture, carb heat)
Trim (All set for takeoff)
Lights (Landing lights on/pulse)
The first three are killer items. I fly other other peoples airplanes in addition to my own and this has saved me when their checklists are poorly written or non-existent.
I had a runaway trim in May out of kwhp that put me with some nose down and did something with the jackscrew, I think, that put the trim wheel all the way nose down. Atc was helpful and the plane was stable around 110, but it took 8 attempts to land because as I slowed the plane, it kept wanting to pitch down. A few attempts were close, so I just kept making adjustments. I couldn't finesse the landing and it was really tiring, but I eventually got it. I've not flown since.
Good stuff! We’re located at KSDL if ever in the area….😎👍🏼
Great video as always! Juan's home base
What about a go around. All you have time to do is shove the throttle in, carb heat in and take out first set of flaps. You like have to feel the yoke pressure and look at your site picture and push down and look at airspeed indicator to get Vx
Good video about using outside references. The one issue I didn't hear much about in it was in the title "RUNAWAY TRIM". It does happen at times especially with those of us with electric trims. If it does are we doomed? Sure you can pull a breaker if you are fast enough but the trim in more simple GA airplane the servo will stop/lock where it is in the more extreme position and then what? Fight it and hope the flight controls don't break?
great advice, I would say take note of where the artificial horizon is at on a typical take off, for my plane, 7.5 degrees is where my max climb rate is, it nice to know, incase you airspeed indicator malfunctions, and mine has, after i washed my plane it reading 30mph too fast, which was weird, and almost killed me.
I appreciate that you teach your students to maintain the proper sight picture no matter what. I had a similar situation occur during training.
Simulated engine out during climb out with return to landing. Debriefed during back taxi and took off again with full trim. Had to push hard to maintain airspeed & attitude while fixing the trim. Instructor was there, but let me handle it. We did discuss this later.
Thanks for passing your experience along!
A good instructor won't step in immediately, but will let you screw up (safely) like that, then explain what went wrong 😁 Now you have the experience to recognize the problem and correct it, instead of just having read or heard about it. My CFI does this sometimes when I miss something (like failing to check the trim during the pre takeoff checks)
@@kaasmeester5903 This was my first flight instructor. He was good and went airline. The second one scared the holy $#/t out of me one day and I refused to fly with him again. The third was the proverbial old guy. He was great, but went FSDO. My final flight instructor was good and a generally nice guy, but he talked way too much. A couple of times I had to pull his mic to be able to hear controllers.
The trainers I fly probably need the trim dial recalibrated or relabeled, because each plane has a different forward or aft setting to fly straight and level at cruise with the same loading.
Do you have a video on actively flying with the trim, because I typically fly ‘fighting the trim’ until I get to a stage of flight when I can concentrate specifically on setting it for straight and level. Then, cruise and slow flight typically keep the same trim setting.
I only adjust the trim substantially when simulating a power failure and need Vg (73 kts) without my effort.
I have made this mistake a few times. Not hard to rectify but, a very uncomfortable situation. I have trim on my stick so, I don't have to do that crazy wheel but still.....Checklists!
Scenario: 3AM Chereake 6, 6 souls on board, Clearance Void time approaching, Take off, Can't raize Minneapolis Center, (Radio Master OFF) Mess with radio. See star in upper part of windshield. Star getting BIGGER BRIGHTER. Star is Farm Yard Light. and I see the curved lens very clearly. Obviously we all lived to tell this tail. Only the aront seat passenger might dave realized how close we were to dying, But he never said a word to me.
It’s interesting learning tips and tricks from someone with 20 years on the flight line.
I always reset the trim to neutral at end of flight.
Be very careful when you test around with trim for takeoff. Know what kind of trim your airplane has! On my Cub the trim actually changes the pitch of the horizontal stabilizer. When I have trimmed tail- heavy too much and give full power, I won't be able to push forward enough to prevent a stall the moment I leave the ground. Would be no fun at all.
Once I had a stuck trim, and I had to fly the whole way back to the airfield with forces on the stick. And as the fuel tank is in the nose, the plane became more and more tail-heavy. But at least the landing was easier, because I hadn't had to pull so much as she wanted her nose up in the air anyway 😉
Good video considering recent events, Jason! But you weren’t in the upwind leg toward the end there… you were on the departure leg. Upwind, just like downwind needs to always be paired with either “right or left” as it’s always parallel to the runway. I know you know this, but am stating it for everyone else as there are too many people out there who think that the departure leg IS the upwind leg and it’s a fallacy I hate seeing propagated.
This i a big controversy topic in aviation. He did a video on this very upwind or departure leg. i like saying departure leg but most pilot say upwind leg
well isnt there a before takeoff checklist.
At 6:35 - Interested to know why you side-stepped to the upwind leg instead of staying on the departure leg? Like, a thing for safety or spacing?
It's left closed traffic and I can't see the runway off to the left so I think he's actually on the departure leg. But you bring up a issue that I've been trying to figure out for a while, namely that pilots (including me) and ATC often call the departure leg the upwind when actually the upwind is the leg parallel to and the opposite side of the runway than the downwind. I've tried to find what it's called when you're over the runway. Departure leg sounds good. I wish it would become part of the runway diagrams in the PHAK, AIM, etc.
as a pilot I'm curious about these "Checklists" you speak of ;/ What are they again?
One thing gnob9dy see s to entire is that the sight picture CHANGES between.10- 20 feet off the ground and, say, 200 feet off the ground. Probably because of ground effect, but still. You have to use airspeed indication instead of siight picture at least until after getting WELL away from ground effect.
You didn't actually deal with runaway trim so I'll ask the question. My T-210 had electric pitch trim on the yolk. In the event of runaway electric trim or autopilot it would take time to identify and pull the fuse so what about just flipping off the master switch to buy time to locate it?
Time stamp ~ 7:30 - 8:00 ---- is your canopy spiderwebbed?
Nah, that's kind of a windscreen sunshade. :-)
what is that dial called that he was adjusting at 1:28 ?
That's the trim wheel.
CFIs need to teach trimming the plane before they try teaching a light grip on the controls. I have spent so much time needing lbs of force on the controls while told to a light grip is preferred. Sorry, no light grip is going to provide that much force.
My CFI started telling me to trim from day one, including on climbs and descends. It becomes second nature, and it does make flying a lot less work :)
Run away trim… only started when planes got auto pilots that take over the plane.
How annoying is the music in the background.
Got it! Always fly alone so you don't get distracted. No. Seriously, good video. I'm green at flying. I plan to take flight lessons. I have studied quite a bit. There was a crash recently which involved trim that was adjusting itself. I'm sure that you know about that particular crash. I figured that the Auto-Pilot must have been engaged somehow. It seems like the poor guy panicked and tried to just fly the plane to the ground without any alternative plan. I still wonder what happened in that particular crash. It just seems like he wanted to force the plane down to the ground at all costs, like landing was his only option. I am glad that you did this video though.
A runaway trim "seems" to have been the cause of a fatal accident at MYF in San Diego on November 5, 2022. The student pilot in a Cirrus SR20 doing pattern work radioed, "Trim is activating by itself" while on short final. Regardless to what this accident investigation determines to be the actual cause, a critical aspect of trim training must include how to disable an electric trim. If I find the TH-cam channel that has the ATC recording, I will post it...
Your video was awesome. You really need *promo sm*.