The Peril of the Reverent Novus Ordo
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 พ.ย. 2022
- It is not the Traditional Latin Mass that is most endangered by current developments, but rather the already rare phenomenon of the reverent Novus Ordo. FOR A PDF TRANSCRIPT PLEASE VISIT: unamsanctamcat...
My Bishop does ad orientem at the Cathedral every Sunday, and has encouraged priests to do it in their parishes
Where do you live?
@@rosannerossi6376 springfield, IL Diocese Bishop Thomas Paprocki. He also ordered everybody to pray the prayer to St. Michael after every Mass.
@@erikriza7165 ♥️Bishop Paprocki
with Bishop Paprocki, you never have to wonder what religion he is, you know he is Catholic. He is also very intelligent, and a very good speaker. He explains things very well.
@@erikriza7165 I have found every priest in the SSPX to be wise and knowledgeable. I knew many priests in the New Order that were knowledgeable but not wise!
Praying for the Restoration of Traditional Latin Mass
SSPX
@Sanctus Paulus 1962 first resort if you want to make sure it's done right and is only said by Priests who don't support Novus Ordo.
@Sanctus Paulus 1962 watch Father Daniel Cooper's talk.Saying both rites or even supporting them favors all the Vatican 2 abuses.Last ICKSP Parish went to played Protestant Hymns at start of Mass
A.) Pope Francis attended an ecumenical prayer service at the Lutheran cathedral in Lund, Sweden on Oct. 31, 2016 despite them heretically condoning abortion, contraceptives, and homosexuality. He was a greater enabler here than Pope Honorius I was with the Monothelites, and Honorius was anathematized for coddling/enabling heretics.
Francis has done other things comparable to this.
B.) Francis: but these people are united to the church.
C.) Heretics and schismatics aren't united to the church. Condoning the aforementioned in A as these Lutherans do makes one a heretic.
St. Augustine, On Baptism, Against the Donatists, Book 4, Chapter 4: "And just as baptism is of no profit to the man who renounces the world in words and not in deeds, so it is of no profit to him who is baptized in heresy or schism; but each of them, when he amends his ways, begins to receive profit from that which before was not profitable, but was yet already in him."
Pope Pelagius II, epistle (2) Dilectionis vestrae, 585: “Those who were not willing to be at agreement in the Church of God, cannot remain with God; although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be for them that crown of faith, but the punishment of faithlessness, not a glorious result (of religious virtue), but the ruin of despair. Such a one can be slain; he cannot be crowned.”
Pope Gregory XVI, Inter Praecipuas (# 2), May 8, 1844: “Indeed, you are aware that from the first ages called Christian, it has been the peculiar artifice of heretics that, repudiating the traditional Word of God, and rejecting the authority of the Catholic Church, they either falsify the Scriptures at hand, or alter the explanation of the meaning.
Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi (# 23), June 29, 1943: “For not every offense, although it may be a grave evil, is such as by its very own nature [suapte natura] to sever a man from the Body of the Church [ab Ecclesiae Corpore], as does schism or heresy or apostasy.”
@@nathaniellathy6559 Which Protestant hymn are you referring to? Do you just mean "a hymn written by a protestant" or a hymn which includes heretical concepts?
I went to the novus ordo tonight. The music was soul crushing. There was no reverence there.
That was a choice of the pastor and parish leadership. There's no requirement the music be bad - the official songbook of both masses is the same one - the Graduale Romanum by the Monks of Solesemes.
I’ve been part of several parishes that celebrate a reverent Novus Ordo and they are thriving in many ways. It all depends on the reverence of your bishop, unfortunately.
The Oratorians in the UK offer a very reverent Novus Ordo, often in Latin, with beautiful music - both gregorian chant and rennaisance poliphony.
This is the inherent problem with the Pauline Mass.... To be reverent it all depends on the whims of Bishops and Priests.... With the Tridentine Mass this was never a problem because the Mass itself allows for no irreverence due to any whims.... It is structured to be reverent regardless of what a Priest or Bishop wants.... That's why we need to go back to the 1962 Missal and suppress the Pauline Mass....
@@sluzardo5879 Yeah, none of this is really true. As a choir director, I have my predecessors hymnals and liturgical books. I think you guys have yourself talked into the idea that pre-conciliar masses were all FSSP masses. They weren't. They were much more akin to today's - low masses with some saccharine vernacular hymnody tacked on - often by the same providers of it as are at it today (such as GIA music.)
The kind of Mass you think you know was really only celebrated at Easter, Christmas, and Pentecost.
Glad to hear those parishes are doing so well. It's a similar issue for us in the Church of England after the introduction of Common Worship, as well as the sundry attempts in the decades before to create a new service book (lining up in time with certain substantial changes to doctrine), to effectively ''replace'' the Book of Common Prayer; the use of which has sadly declined a lot. Some parishes do BCP services, few do Common Worship reverently, but very many (no thanks to how many irreverent ''alternative'' prayers & creeds are supplied in CW) are liturgical dishwater - all determined by the priest in charge, or the Diocesan Bishop when it comes to cathedrals. I do hope that we - not just Anglicans, but the RCC & plenty other denominations in such a fix - can return to some level of dignity & reverence when we worship God.
I attend both. I attend a TLM Mass at an SSPX near me and lector at an reverant N.O. Church with latin hymns, communion rail and ad orientem. I must admit I prefer the TLM Mass.
Careful with the SSPX, they are not going to be saved
@@mysteryboy2751 I don't know about them not being saved that's not up to me but I'll be quite frank I don't care for their elitist and separatist attitude that they have.
You aren't supposed to go to SSPX u less you can't make it to any other Mass bc they teach many heretical things
@@joset8907you have no clue what your saying. You gave YOUR opinion, and that is all it is. The mass is not about us, but how God wants to be worshiped.
@@RJ-bu6esno you're the one that doesn't have a clue you sound like an arrogant rat trap who thinks they know everything about Holiness but all things are all they're good at is performing Rubik's and making outward signs of Holiness been inward they're full of arrogance hypocrisy and self-righteousness that's why you make a stupid comment like the one you just made you're the one that doesn't have a clue tell me how many how many abortion clinics you've paid in front of tell me how many homeless you've helped are so many soup kitchens you worked at give me tell me how many sick people you've visited in hospitals tell me how many
Why just why can’t we have both??? I just want to practice my faith in the way that I think is sacred. I adore the fact that they face the altar. But NO masses can stay too, just let us have both please!
There is a great peril of TLM attendees who lack humility and look down upon NO, holding a disdain in their hearts thinking themselves holier than those. Who attend a NO parish as if Jesus was less present in the new Mass. I weep for this TLM goer and thinker
I feel confident in saying, most of us are not like that. God bless you.
Strawman. You are part of the reason why the church is miserable
Anyone who has read Michael Davies' book about the Crammer's liturgical reform will know why the Reverent Novus Ordo is not enough. The restoration of the TLM is the only way.
Davies' books are essential
Read Davies and not convinced TLM is “the only way”
@@toddvoss52 If, after reading the book, you cannot identify that the novus ordo was implemented with the very same purpose as Crammer's liturgical reform, that is, to provide an ambiguous rite that can be read from both a Catholic and a Protestant perspective, the problem is not in the book, but in the ability to observe the reality of the facts. Just go to any parish and see that most Catholics today, including priests, already hold a Protestant belief, even though they remain nominally Catholic.
@@toddvoss52 sure you did.
The new Mass is replete with differences in context, content, emphasis and execution. Calling a NO Mass, " reverent," is akin to putting a suit on a monkey, knowing all the while its still a monkey in a suit.
You articulated your point very well, overall. However, I disagree with your assessment that the Reverent Novus Ordo is almost solely dependent upon the pope and bishops. I recognize this is anecdotal evidence and so won't be applicable across the board, but I have been blessed to know numerous priests who celebrate the Novus Ordo with reverence and care, in a way that is both orthodox and attractive. I think the question of whether the "Reverent Novus Ordo," so called, will continue is more dependent upon the caliber of men entering and being admitted to seminaries than anything else (I do recognize that second part falls within the bishop's ballpark). Wherever you have good priests, you will have good celebrations of the Mass, and of course the opposite is true as well.
I do, however, agree with your suggestion that the chameleon nature of the New Mass is problematic (this is coming from someone who almost exclusively attends and loves the Novus Ordo very much). You can certainly experience a huge range between heavenly and heretical, with some imprudent priests liking to put their own "spin" on the celebration, depending on where you go. If I had my way (and this is the direction I hope and actually think that the Church hierarchy will ultimately head toward), there would be a somewhat narrow, publicized rubric for the celebration of the New Mass, where certain breaches will be outright/explicitly condemned and other things (reception on the tongue, Communion rails, etc.) will be mandated. I think that is entirely possible. However, that DOES depend on the pope and the bishops. I pray we will have such strong shepherds in the future, who are able to guide the Church with a paternal hand, one which is gentle but uses the crozier to discipline and pull dissidents into submission when required. There is more than enough room for the Latin Mass and the New Mass to be celebrated together.
My personal experience 100% matches yours. I've noticed the younger generation of priests, at least in my region, have more and more interest in a reverent Novus Ordo.
Furthermore, the flexibility of the Novus Ordo has allowed the development of popular distinct liturgies, such as the Zaire Use that is popular in Africa, or forms used by Charismatic Catholics. Although I prefer traditional liturgies, I feel blessed that the Church offers such liturgical diversity.
I agree it is not in peril when all you have to do is go looking the odds of a reverent NO being 30 minutes away is a lot higher than finding a TLM. Also not sure you can prohibit ad orientum since if the priest follows the GRIM he will be facing as orientum, so they are telling you to go against the GRIM which seems really odd.
Thank you, you so much i appreciate all you’ve said!
My Only concern is Individuals who attend the Latin Mass began to deny the Mass of the Common Tongue was not valid. I love the Latin & have become proficient in Ecclesiastical Latin. That cannot & should not be done once the Latin Mass returns. Christ is present in both Masses.
Amen. ❤
The idea that Latin is THE language of the church is ridiculous and conveniently, only propped after the schism.
I have yet to encounter any TLM adherent who denies the validity of the NO Mass. Even the SSPX admit that it's valid in the sense that a true consecration takes place. It's not a question of validity, but of insufficiency, which is a different thing. As a liturgy, the NO lacks important elements, especially the focus on the Mass as primarily a sacrifice that re-enacts Christ's redeeming sacrifice at Calvary (rather than being centred around a communal meal, as in Protestant worship). Lex orandi, lex credendi: how we worship reflects and influences what we believe. Fewer and fewer Catholics attending the NO Mass believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist.
It took me a bit to come to terms with the reality that “reverent novus ordo” is a constant process of damage control resolved easily by opting for the TLM.
Amen.
What about peril of disobedience, peril of schism, peril of pride, peril of phariseeism...
Another strawman. You people have no arguments, reminds me of progressives who shout buzzworde all day.
I have never understood why Catholic deconstructionists don't simply LEAVE Apostolic Orthodoxy and become Presbyterians. That way they can have Wonder Bread and grape juice twice a year and celebrate LGBT.
A great summary of where thing currently stand. This summarises why I jumped off the Reform of the Reform ship.
The novus ordo is painful. Especially the music.
I wish there were more TLMs nearby but my local basilica has a reverent novus ordo. It is very reverent and still licit so I will go.
You have to ask - is it licit to ban TLM? If not, the ‘illicit’ TLM are OK. Peace!
@@tubaceous I’m getting schism vibes from that
@@tonywallens217 you may be quite right - banning TLM can be certainly construed to be a schismatic act… peace and Ave!
If you can't find a TLM perhaps one of the eastern catholic churches could serve as a safe harbor?
Yes same here
The SSPX made a good video about why the reverent Novus Ordo is still not good enough.
Can’t recommend that video enough. Thank you, Father Robinson.
Can we have a link,please
The SSPX are in schism with the one true church.
@Diego Alvarez If the Pope says the sky is green that doesn't make it so, a lot of prayers were DELETED completely during the liturgical reform, of the Proper of the Mass only 13% of the prayers remain, many of the Prayers of the Ordinary of the Mass were also removed completely, and Pope Benedict XVI said that what was sacred yesterday it is still sacred today, ergo, the Traditional Mass has the same weight today as it had yesterday
@@tomconigliaro7957 th-cam.com/video/0Yfo63OiNeo/w-d-xo.html Here you are.
The reform of the reform of the reform of the reform unto Infinity. Self condemning.
As a reverend Novus Ordo Catholic, I would agree that those on this path are heading into murky waters.
This is EXCELLENT. I wish there were a transcript for this video. Well done and deeply true.
Press the 3 dots at the top close to SAVE and you will get a transcript. Copy it and print in your word processor.
@@bajiron Oh yes...I know the autogenerated function, but that can be glitchy.
Here is the transcript I read from:
unamsanctamcatholicam.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/The-Peril-of-the-Reverent-Novus-Ordo-1.pdf
@@uscatholicam MAGNIFICENT! Thank you!
@@uscatholicam Thank you!
This is a fair, honest, and balanced approach. I appreciate the work and dedication that went into this video!!!
This is a very well made video, it's honest and intellectual without being boring, the editing is pretty good, and it's definitely helping the traditions of the faith continue to thrive
The editing is "pretty good"? Excellent, I'll take it! :D
I enjoy going to the SSPX Mass 😍
I enjoy their fearless and steadfast witness to the doyens of the Great Apostasy. They've suffered much, both internally and externally to preserve the faith intact.
It’s heretical and illicit
@@michaelwojcik2597 You're heretical and illicit.
@@michaelwojcik2597 really? I’ve never heard that claim before. What heresies do they espouse?
@@michaelwojcik2597 How is the Tridentine Rite heretical ?
Replace all Novus Ordo Masses with TLM
It will take a while , but no time like now !.
The Novus Gaydo
I'll do as the church wants.
@@Kitiwake not a good idea if it goes against against the Faith
@@nathaniellathy6559 Stating that the the Church can teach something that goes against the faith is heretical, as it would mean you don't believe in the infallibility of the Holy Church, the teaching of the Ecumenical councils (VII is also one) and the authentic magisterium which have all espoused that the Church is infallible. The Church is not able to teach something against the faith or morals in doctrine or dogma, and you need to belief that to call yourself Catholic, otherwise you are a heretic and a schismatic. However, things like discipline f.e. Traditionis Custodes can absolutely be fallible, whilst still being authentic teachings of the Church in and of itself which require obedience and submission. According to canon 1364 of Canon Law, by being a heretic; because you imply you belief that the Church can teach something against the faith which is a heresy against the infallibility of the Church, you incur latae sentetiae excommunication and are no longer Catholic. Unless you weren't, by negligence, aware that such a thing is heretical then canon 1324 excuses you from this and makes you only a material heretic... But now that you know, you're no longer materially but formally a heretic, so it doesn't excuse your position you hold, so please before espousing such grave matters on the internet rethink your position and submit to the True Catholic Faith.
Aesthetics are ultimately not the issue at all. It is the theological deficiencies of the NO.
Some problems.
A few of the intellectuals of the traditionalist movement are leaning towards schism. Rao is SSPX friendly (which probably won't be a problem for some people), Kwasniewski has publicly stated his approval of going into schism if the '62 books are further suppressed, and Reid was ordained by an unnamed bishop without his bishop's approval and suspended (I'm unaware if his current status). That's not a good indicator of the trajectory of the movement.
Also presupposed is that all masses celebrated according to the Pauline books are necessarily irreverent and filled with abuse. That is false. The standard of comparison is the mass promulgated under St. Paul, as intended with the mass promulgated under St. John.
Uh oh, I guess you don't think Saint Athanasius should have been canonized either.
'Francis'? He has a title. It is POPE. Please use it.
8:51
I hear what you are saying. I go to a reverent Novus Ordo church, and candidly, I really like it. Every third Sunday, they have a Latin Mass (but obviously not TLM), and there are no "shenanigans" going on there. From what I understand, the introduction of the reverent N.O. Mass saved the church I attend, and attendance is up dramatically in the last ten years or so. There is a TLM church about an hour to an hour and a half away from where I live, but I cannot give up the close ties I have with my parish. We get many veiled women and others who kneel and take Communion on the tongue. Not a problem at all. I too take Communion on the tongue, and will not take Communion unless I have gone to Confession within 24 hours of Mass. That is just my practice, but I will say the vast majority of people in my parish are very devout and love our Lord and Saviour with all their hearts. I hate the division between Catholics these days, but I know the parishioners of TLM churches feel attacked from within, and I think that is a disgrace! We have enough to deal with as Catholics and Christians without these divisions within our own ranks. The TLM was the Mass of our Church for over 1,000 years! Let faithful Catholics worship according to their consciences as long as proper reverence is shown to our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ (i.e. no clown masses, etc). I hope you are wrong about the eventual disappearance of the reverent N.O. Mass.........it would be an unbearable blow to an already maligned, and divided Church.
Thank you. It's wonderfully delivered and is akin to the misconception that a hare and rabbit are the same thing - which they aren't!
How many Holy Sacrifices of the Mass are there?
@@stephenmcguire7342 Just the one given by Christ Himself. Whole, entire and complete.
Excellent.
Why not just have both the TLM and a Reverent N.O?
They both have something to offer, I think complaining too much can scandalize those inside and outside the Church.
Agreed. The rite is different. As I mature in my faith, I have learned through the NO, and therefore appreciate the traditions of our faith. The TLM and the Byzantine Rite Are extra special and should be included in our faith formation.
I've noticed how the TLM and Byzantine Rite mention the Blessed Mother, Saints and Angels quite alot. Sadly, they are barely mentioned in the NO making it quite Protestant friendly.
@@marnatz5 which kind of protestant?
Magnificent! Thank you very much.
Good assessment on the situation. We need more videos like this.
@fool1shmortal The question in your 1st paragraph is yes, the bishop has the authority to take away a parish from FSSP priests and other similar groups because all of the parish buildings and property belongs legally to the bishop. So FSSP priests could be ousted and the bishop turn the Church into a NO parish. Your last paragraph says "most will go to NO unless there's a massive falling away." There's already a massive falling away and Rome at present is up to no good with promising female deaconesses. Their ploy is to eventually ordain them as deaconesses which then would lead to ordaining them as female priestesses. The latter would be consecrating unholy, invalid Communion . That would bring a formal schism in the Church. The Church has taught for 2,000 years that only a man can be validly ordained. Subdeacon, Deacon and Priest are all at different levels within the one Sacrament of Ordination. The end goal of the present corrupt Vatican is female priestesses , starting with females all over the sanctuary which we already have. Next is unordained deaconesses and then "ordained" deaconesses and ordained priests. That is how the Episcopal church ended up with female bishops. Rome does everything in increments and hopes you are not watching. The true Catholic Church will always exist but we may have to go underground for awhile. Mary, Mother of the Church, pray for us. St. Joseph, Terror of Demons pray for us.
The TLM has a mixed reception here in Borneo. Namely because roman culture and latin language are in opposition to the local ones. Therefore, the Novus Ordo actually GREATLY INCREASED church participation and mass attendance, for the simple fact that it is said in the local language, decorum and hymns. In this case, how do we defend the TLM?
Latin is the universal language of the church, regardless of the place of the world, it preserves tradition and uniformity
@@janitoalevic while I agree with you, would you sacrifice souls for the sake of tradition? May I ask where you are from and what’s your cultural background? Just to get some context.
Icarus, your point is well made and is the obvious reason why the ordinary form is as valid as the TLM. Clearly being non-pastoral, to the detriment of souls, is the easy way out; however, the clear answer is that The Church has already provided the solution in granting the ordinary and extraordinary forms of The Mass - a valid Mass provides the same Sacrament. Jesus’ declaration in Matthew 16:18 remains the same despite some people’s hunger for the opposite. Things may or may not change but no level of disenchanted bickering will ever change the fact that IT IS THE WILL OF GOD, PROVEN AND PASSED ON BY SACRED TRADITION AND HOLY SCRIPTURE, THAT THE CHURCH SHALL NOT FAIL!!!
Gee, it's funny the Roman Catholic church made millions of converts all around the world, even in places where "roman culture and latin language are in opposition to the local ones," during the 20 centuries when the "Traditional Latin Mass" was the only liturgy available.
@@brandywineblue Do you really believe that the Latin Roman liturgy was the only available liturgy the Church had for 20 centuries? The entire history of the Church?
I'll start by saying that I'm very impressed by your rhetorical skills. Your video essay is really well written. It's witty, confident, to the point...wish I had those kind of arguing skills. Okay flattery over :-). To answer your question at 6:03 some big ones that come to mind would be Bishop Emeritus Peter Elliot, professor Denis McNamara at Benedictine, Dr. David Fagerberg at Notre Dame, and Kevin Magas at Mundelein Seminary. That's just off the top of my head thought. In terms of communities my mind immediately goes to the Norbertines at St. Michael's Abbey in Orange Country, CA. Also the Canons Regular of St. John Cantius have been doing a lot in Illinois even with Cardinal Cupich restricting celebrations of the older missal. The Oratorians in England all put special emphasis on the liturgy. You might include the Solesmes Congregation, but I think the monasteries vary on whether they use the '62 Missal, '02, or both. In terms of organizations the Liturgical Institute at Mundelein and its offshoot Adoremus Bulletin are both very active. Maybe these aren't household names (not many people are a Joseph Ratzinger) but they're still working hard all the same. Once again, very good rhetorical skills, very engaging. God bless.
Thanks for the comments and feedback!
Thanks for this list!
I’d like to hear more about this. Any bloggers out there?
@@DonalLeader Adoremus Bulletin would be my biggest recommendation. They get writers from everywhere. Source and Summit is pretty good, but I'm not as familiar with them and they're newer. The Church Music Association of America (CMAA) doesn't have a blog, but their website does have a lot of resources worth checking out.
Poor design of the title slide! The word Peril is easily missed while scrolling.
6:47 I think it's also worth mentioning that a number of Catholic newspapers and magazines that used to be primarily associated with the Reform of the Reform have since moved on and became "Trad Adjacent", e.g. Crisis Magazine and Catholic Herald (at least, before Damian Thompson left)
Edit: oh yeah, and then there are the apologists and Popesplainers who always come to defend the Liturgical reform whenever some Trad points out a defect, yet *they themselves* never attend the New Mass, instead opting for a Byzantine or Maronite Liturgy
I don’t think this video shows the full story. I have a brother in seminary at Mount Saint Mary’s in Maryland. The university side is fairly “Catholic in name only,” but the seminary side of the mount is extremely strong. All the men there whom I’ve met - priests, deacons, and seminarians - are all proud traditionalist who celebrate the NO. Traditional hymns bookend the mass, and the other music used are the antiphon from the gradual. The gospel is chanted, incense is everywhere. I know that description likewise does not constitute traditionalism, perhaps you’d have to visit. But the move to reform the NO mass into a reverent style of worship is alive and strong, but not simply in pockets like at the seminary. It’s IN these men, who will bring it to their parishes and homes.
The same is true at the Josephinum in Columbus Ohio where my son is in seminary. That being said, the summit of reverence is in the TLM and this generation of young men, of which many believe a reverent NO is the answer, will not rest until they lead the faithful back to that summit. They may not realize it now, but that is the journey upon which they have embarked. Ironically, the most significant obstacle in their path is the current episcopate, but being made of men, it shall pass and the TLM, the Mass of the Ages, shall rise again just like the Lord it adores and glorifies. In our temporal struggles we forget that the Church while it was established for humanity is not of a human nature but of the Divine.
The more you delve into church history and study Catechism, the more the truth about the TLM becomes clear. What was it Cardinal Newman said? "To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant."
I wasn't sure what the definition of a Reverent NO is. Does it have to be Ad Orientem? At my Franciscan Parish the priest prays the Mass very reverently facing us. His well prepared and delivered homilies usually focus on the Gospel reading. He is earnest about imparting the lessons of the Gospel. We have petitions that pray for the poor and disenfranchised just as in the Gospels. We have a collection for the poor. You can receive on the tongue. People have even stopped talking before Mass. Are you sure the TLM, though a majestically beautiful liturgy, is "sub Petro et cum Petro" when you cannot accept the discipline of Traditionis Custodes, and don't feel the present Magisterium continuing through Pope Francis is valid?
Old ways & style is best. Amen ✝️
Pray for Pope Francis and all the clergy 🙏
I pray that they become holy.
My friends, pray for me! I came from a TLM tradition and sensibilities but I now have a music director job that requires me to do a contemporary Mass. I am open to doing this but I just wanted to make sure I do the right thing for our Lord and his community. Please pray for me.
Meanwhile, in the Orthodox Churches around the world we've been celebrating the Divine Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom (the norm), St. Basil the Great (during Great Lent), St. James (on his feast day), and Pope St. Gregory the Great (the Pre-sanctified Liturgy during Great Lent) unchanged for centuries.
The Orthodox are going to get their Vatican II moment sooner or later.
And the Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgies are the same as the Orthodox church Divine Liturgies. The difference is that the former reunited with Rome/papacy.
@@marnatz5 And Francis is messing with the Eastern Catholics too, and his pronouncements have destroyed all the progress made toward reunification with the Orthodox Christians
The Archbishop of Leyte decreed that all masses will be in Ad Orientem
Ad orientem. We can not put truth and lies in one container, because the tendency is to accept lies and reject the truth. There is no half truth and half lies. That is what Arch. Lefebvre wrote in his book.
Thomas Jefferson and his brothers in the Revolution said to nullify unconstitutional "laws." The same applies here.
Return of the traditional Catholic 🙏
I would have never converted to catholicism if the mass was in Latin alone.
Thank you! Knowledge is good!!
The foundation of the faith is mysticism. But now people face Mass priests as Gods & mysticism is most denied. Besides the Royal priesthood of the Laity is also denied.
+JMJ A "reverent" NO offered in Latin ad Orientam does not fix the most basic deficiency of the NO: it is not a celebration of the Holy Sacrifice of Christ on Calvary. By eliminating 87% of the orations of the TLM and any mention of taking up the Cross other than incidentally the NO becomes a happy meal where everyone goes to heaven. While the idea that all are going to heaven is a great sentiment, it flies in the face of what Jesus actually taught: take up your Cross for the path to heaven is narrow. 9:23 Consequently, the NO has devastated authentic Catholic life and practice. I think the future is in the TLM. The TLM's long and lasting heritage and its provenance to the Apostles reflects the support and approval of the Holy Ghost. The TLM truly is the Mass of the Heavenly Host.
ARTICLE IX : "I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH; THE
COMMUNION OF SAINTS"
"The Importance Of This Article
With what great diligence pastors ought to explain to the faithful the truth of this ninth Article
will be easily seen, if we attend chiefly to two considerations.
First, as St. Augustine observes, the Prophets spoke more plainly and openly of the Church than
of Christ, foreseeing that on this a much greater number may err and be deceived than on the
mystery of the Incarnation. For in after ages there would not be wanting wicked men who, like
the ape that would fain pass for a man, would claim that they alone were Catholics, and with no
less impiety than effrontery assert that with them alone is the Catholic Church.
61
The second consideration is that he whose mind is strongly impressed with the truth taught in
this Article, will easily escape the awful danger of heresy. For a person is not to be called a
heretic as soon as he shall have offended in matters of faith; but he is a heretic who, having
disregarded the authority of the Church, maintains impious opinions with pertinacity."
Catechism of the Counsel of Trent.
I would say the TLM is more like the muscular vascular systems or the cardiovascular systems of the human body it has natural depth and beauty. The Reverent Novus Ordo Mass is like a Bare Bones skeleton it is a shell of the body Its missing vital organs and functions of the human body. Sadly when the Novus Ordo is not reverent, not proper its like a amputated skeleton missing the appropriate vitals in order to experience a truly more perfect form of worship which we see in the Eastern Catholic Rites Liturgies that are originated in the Apostolic Age along with the Ancient Western Rite The TRADATIONAL LATIN MASS also from the Apostolic Age. The TLM and Eastern Rite Liturgies have infinite depth and are truly ageless, timeless able to be grasped by the poor, the rich, the knowledgeable, the ignorant, the sinner, the saint, the clergy, the laity, men and women, young and or old. The TLM is beautiful and enriching the souls of those that attend it most importantly it it gives greater glory, honor, adoration and worship to God.
I go to a reverent no communion rails, greg chant, smells/bells, ad orientum, etc. We have an FSSP and then an institute right next to us and both have beautiful liturgies but I prefer our rev no. I believe we might be headed to all latin in the prayers and responses here soon.
I've noticed that Father has been using more latin at our mass lately.
Thought-provoking!
Return to the Mass of the ages 🙏. If it isn’t broke don’t fix it. Church attendance dropped by 50% over the course of 30 years after Vatican 2 closed
They can exist together in there proper proper order,unity of spirit and word. It depends on piety, reverence an intention of both priest and people in the formation of the one body for Christ alone
a reverent novus ordo with sober observant of the Roman Missal, mostly lead the lay towards TLM.
Dangerous state of things indeed. We in the Church of England have a similar issue with “Common Worship” - extremely nebulous liturgy, worsened by the fact that it lacks deep theology. A Roman Catholic friend of mine once said that the Mass is Catechesis in itself, & that is just as true for the CofE’s traditional liturgies in the book of common prayer. I hope & pray our leaders remember this.
excellent, very insightful commentary.
Great analysis, thank you.
Well said
3:01 - my old Bishop Bruskiewicz. He slapped us when we got confirmed. He also gave a place for FSSP to house a seminary when few others would. He also upheld altar boys only which continued the many priestly and monastic vocations coming out of Nebraska. Now the Lincoln Diocese is leading the restoration of Orthodoxy in many ways via the Focus Missionaries going out to college Newman Centers all over the USA. The new Newman Center in Nebraska has to been the best in the entire country. Soon those individuals it trains will lead many parishes and get rid of the felt banners and 60s hymns.
I have long since given up on the reform of the reform, but Benedict XVI did a bit more than just write about it. Papal liturgies were transformed into something much more papal looking than before or since. He also was the one to insist on the proper translation of “pro multis,” which ended up only affecting the English and Spanish translations, as the current regime has gone back to allowing the equivalent of “for all.” Anyway, it was always “weak sauce,” because the Novus ordo is a faint shadow of the traditional Roman Rite, and that is to be very kind.
You can't just reject the liturgy promulgated by Holy Mother Church. That applies to both liturgies. I solidly disagree with the idea that the reverent Novus Ordo has no hope. Just wait a few decades. Some men in pointy hats have to retire, and some young guys have to get ordained, but good things are coming down the way for the Church.
A good breakdown of the problem.
It is that man lefevbre who is our equivalent of the macabees ..he was made an exile because he started sspx ...he is definitely the man who deserves to be a saint than all conciliar saints combined ...a western catholic traditional orthodox church ..that is brand new and purified by this persacution by marxists and liberals to the point of living in small houses and maintaining the faith and strengthening people
It is the same thing when a parent tells their child not to do something then the child goes ahead and do what they were told not to do.
Many things wrong in this video, but the overall message is correct.
The reverence issue is a red herring. It’s not about reverence, it’s about doctrine
Lex orandi, lex credendi
There is nothing wrong with the rites (there are 7 rites the Church recognized). We don't think we are better than the Magisterium and believe the Church is invisible, do we?
What a great summary!
Maybe the Reverent Novus Ordo as the CVII intended wouldn't be in peril if the "traditionalist" movement wasn't made up of a bunch of TLM geeks. That is the problem; no one defends the original NO because they are very busy creating their VO ghettos. If all the priests that offer TLM started to celebrate NO in latin and versus Deum things would be very different, but no, we have to stick to the 1962 missal as if Christ himself was using that rite during the last supper. Less grumble and more action.
The Home of the Mother is a religious community which does some of the most important evangelical work today, that I have seen, and they have an incredibly reverend Novus Ordo mass (kneelers, two species). If you get an opportunity to go to a retreat with them I would recommend it. Our Lady has selected them for a specific mission in our time
Why no TLM?
great video!
I love the TLM deeply... but the only fruits I've witnessed from commentary such as this are the fruits of division within the bride and a growing shadow of doubt cast on papal authority.
There is only one divider, and he is the enemy of humility and obedience. Let God himself fight for TLM, and let there be no divisions within the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
Viva Cristo Rey
Who is casting doubt on papal authority? This video is about how the same restrictions that apply to the TLM will apply to the Novus Ordo. It's not about papal authority at all.
@@uscatholicam Hey, thank you for the reply.
Actually, I want to apologize for a couple things... I meant to send this as a reply to another comment, not directly, and so it lost some of it's context along the way.
I also want to further apologize because the comment I made about papal authority was far to general to be helpful. Not to mention, I should have acknowledged that you never directly challenged papal authority. It was careless of me, and I am sorry for that! I'm happy to either take down the comment, or leave this apology up.
I do have a question on the last line of your video, if you'll indulge me! You said:
"Stop searching for the mass the council intended, and go back to the mass the council upended".
It's undeniable, that the reality of the liturgical reform has been incredibly messy since the council, especially in the US. And yet, at the same time, we cannot deny that the Holy Spirit inspired Sacrosanctum Concilium, and the language found in the rest of the council.
Can we go back to the mass the council "upended" without rejecting the intent of the council that the holy spirit inspired?
Thanks again!
Correction. One of the folks you showed in those pictures frames you presented has NO PROBLEMO in letting the whole world know about his Traditional Latin position. His name is Jesse Romero. Have you heard the man talk? Check it out!
polemical language against the Novus Ordo is counter productive. We need dialogue and diplomacy if we are to offer the TLM as an alternative. Both Masses are valid and orthodox. I love the Latin Mass as it is less open to other excesses and liberties, My general opinion from other people is that the Latin Mass is unintelligible and excludes the laity completely. They baulk at ad Orientem. I don't think it will ever take the place of the Novus Ordo. It's here for good, but it shouldn't exclude the TLM for those who love it and who feel enobled and spiritually enriched by it and feel closer to Christ Jesus.
I understand a lot of the points you're trying to make, but one of the biggest issues I noticed with this video is an oversimplification of both forms of the Roman Rite. The extraordinary form (not traditional Latin mass) isn't something that just came about without Magisterial approval and innovation. Essentially, it is a late medieval creation with some elements of traditional Roman liturgy.
Now, the ordinary form (not Novus Ordo) isn't nearly as flexible as you make it out to be. A cursory reading of the 1970 Missal, and especially the GIRM, shows that the typical "guitar mass" violates so much of the rubrics. The reasonable response, which I can't believe no Pope has done yet, would be to just enforce the rules. That's it. This is why I always point out the irreverent liturgies of the 60s as evidence that the 1962 Missal isn't a "silver bullet." Logically speaking, if a parish is going to ignore the rules in one missal, they'll probably ignore the rules in another. With the 1962 Missal, they'd just have more rules to ignore.
Another thing, the ordinary form has always had reverent masses. Even back in 1970, there were plenty of parishes performing the liturgy with the hermeneutic of continuity. As every church should. Not only that, but the idea that you need Latin, Gregorian chant, ad apsidum, and communion on the tongue for reverent liturgy is, frankly, stupid. That would almost completely nullify every other form of liturgy in the Church's history. While I support bringing at least some of those elements back, they're not necessary for reverence. Only the disposition of the parish is.
Before Traditionis Custodes, the extraordinary form wasn't growing. The "ceiling had been hit" years before hand. Plus the interest in the extraordinary form was mostly limited to a couple western countries like the US and France. The countries with the largest growth of Catholics were those in Africa and Asia. Which were almost entirely using the 1970 Missal. Another thing that gives the extraordinary form the appearance of growth is that there are few parishes that exclusively offer it, and people that will go long distance for it. Meaning that they'll attract larger crowds than a standard diocesan parish. Conversely, those standard parishes don't tend to see very much interest in the older missal. I've personally seen it and I've heard plenty of pastors talk about how hardly anyone comes to their extraordinary form masses. Even when highly publicized and done at convenient times.
Simply put, the interest isn't there. The liturgy before the reform has its place, but just reverting to it and thinking it will fix everything is a fantasy, and would call into question the legitimacy of the Catholic Church. You can't say that it wouldn't appear odd that the Church spent over a century discussing the need for liturgical reform only to reverse it suddenly because a very small minority don't like it.
One last thing on Pope Francis. If you read Traditionis Custodes and Desiderio Desideravi, it's very clear that he basically stands in the reform of the reform camp. He derides the abuses, and calls for more reverence and adherence to the rubrics. Heck, his reasoning for TC was to keep people from abusing the extraordinary form and turning it into a weapon against the Church. That's pretty traditional if you ask me.
Thank you for a well-written and much-needed response to the anti-OF hysteria. The trad movement greatly exaggerates the level of interest in the EF. We hear lots of anecdotes about "packed" EF masses, but that hasn't been my experience, even in a "conservative" US diocese.
I wish the people who speak of the "reverence" of the pre-Vatican II mass could have met my late father. He grew up with that mass, and thought it was a tedious obligation at best. He was quite happy with the reformed mass, and he was not the only one of his generation with that opinion. The EF seems to attract older people who are nostalgic for the form, and younger people who are looking for novelty. Most Catholics have other concerns. One can be entirely "reverent" without a Latin mass. I suppose I'm spoiled, because my parish celebrates the OF in a mature manner--no silly music or standup comedy-style homilies. I can understand the frustration of the faithful who have to endure that nonsense, but I wish they would be more inclined to join the parish liturgy committee than to withdraw and attack the Holy Father.
@Matthew 2820 I wholeheartedly agree. I was also pretty fortunate to grow up in a parish that celebrated the liturgy reverently (and somehow always had at least 3 priests even with the shortage). So I understand that my perspective certainly comes with its own biases. However, I still maintain my stance.
I had asked my grandmother last year a little about what she thought about the two forms since she had grown up before Vatican II. Her stance was that some things are better now and some things not so much. Not an unfair assessment in my opinion. It seems that the prevailing view of liturgical theologians before Vatican II was that the liturgy was desperately in need of reform, and I'd have to agree. Heck it was only under Pius XII that we finally got rid of the prayers for the Holy Roman Emperor from the liturgy. An office that didn't exist for over a century.
If you can find a way to read it, I'd recommend checking out Archbishop Bugnini's The Reform of the Liturgy. And yeah, Bugnini had his own problems, but the book is very in-depth and comprehensive. One of the things that stood out to me was that Bugnini actually addresses a lot of the criticisms that would come up later. He makes it very clear that the reason for the practically wholesale abandonment of Latin was because when they allowed for masses to be done with vernacular and Latin, parishes were asking to just drop the Latin. This was the case throughout the reform. It wasn't some bureaucratic, top-heavy situation. The committee was clearly taking advice from people on the ground and traditionally minded Catholics.
I also noticed that a lot of the prelates who later voiced criticism against the reform were pretty involved in it and approved a lot of the changes. Bugnini wrote about a lot of the feedback and seemed perplexed by some of the clergy who would be critical of say, the introduction of different Eucharistic Prayers, yet they approved them long ago.
Francis may decry liturgical abuses, but that doesn’t stop other bishops from allowing it to happen.
@@padlily2485 That's why I'd rather Pope Francis enforce his views on the liturgy instead of just expressing them.
Brilliant video; really interesting stuff you've covered.
7:30 to 8:26 is extremely similar to what the introduction of Common Worship has done to the liturgy of the CofE. There are about 15 different publications with alternatives of alternatives for prayers & creeds that just get increasingly less reverent until you may as well be at a megachurch. Without any solid tradition, we can't hand anything onto the Christians of the future, so it is pertinent that we go - even if only slightly - back to the rich tradition of our older liturgies.
I’m just here because that’s my parish priest in the thumbnail but this comment section is literally the most toxic place I’ve been today and I just got off Reddit 😂😂😂😂 regardless of your outlook, God bless.
This site should contact Apple, and get “Thanks” setup. It is a simple way to get donations.
Francis is the greatest salesman the traditional mass ever had. God bless the idiot.🥰
I would like to remind you that you are speaking about the Vicar of Jesus Christ, the successor of St. Peter.
@@CarolBaskinsLandscapeGuy idk, but what does that have in common with my statement? Are you sedevacantist or something?
@@CarolBaskinsLandscapeGuy ...
is President Biden really the President?
Was there some shenanigans perhaps in earlier Conclaves during the V2 era ?
Thinking people might "think" so .
The Novus Ordo hijacked the Vatican.
We are in the Great Apostacy and The Chastisement is intensifying..
If the Pope is not Catholic then he is just the pope of the novus ordo.
This was prophesied and Our Lady of Fatima tried to warn us.
Our Lords Chose is hidden in plain site....
@@polmic2572 Pope Francis himself has made the statement that he is not the Vicar of Christ. Scary isn't it.
@@CarolBaskinsLandscapeGuy No,have to be a confirmed and believe everything what she proposes for our belief.Also can not disagree with any doctrine.
Fantastic!
All of the young priests are reverent novus ordo reform-of-the-reform people. In 10 to 20 years, all of the boomer bishops will be dead or retired, and the only clerics left will be the young priests of today. At the point, the reverent novus ordo will be the only show left in town.
The novus ordo is for all intents and purposes.....dead. The attempts to save it are futile.
that is the problem with man made abrupt changes...they pass, they go stale and out of fashion. The NO (in which I was born and grew up) really does feel...well, old. It's aesthetics, appeal, sounds, etc...do feel like watching those series from the 70s with rough sound and grainy film. And I am not talking about the extreme cases, but rather the regular parish.
good job!
Well said!
I think a bishop halting the Latin Mass where the priests for the latter are obedient can put a stop to that Mass there. I don!t know about Latin Mass communities that gave their own church building, such as the FSSP in KC, Ks.. Does the ordinary bishop have authority, jurisdiction and all that to take it away from them, run them out and make it a NO Mass building, sell it or repurpose it?
I think the reform of the reform introduced elements of the TLM that can maybe strengthen souls and/or inspire better things in them. Maybe a future great theologian or will be borne from one of those attempts to make the NO more reverent. Most who go to Mass will go to those.
As you said, though, the ecclesiastical map was not terraformed for the Theology of the Body or Reform of the Reform. You have to give willful heretics a choice to shape up or ship out, but better get yourself some trained guards and good doctor or scientist to make sure the food and medicine aren’t poisoned, because there are some that probably have gone full wolf in shepherd’s clothing. Are CC wolves territorial? Well, these kind are. They like their comforts and power. You have to get the new wine skins for the at least passable wine, if not new ones-or something like that. You need good earth for the proverbial mustard seed. If you want to support the Latin Mass, you need that established, but it seems the previous two popes did do that pretty well. Like I said, though. Most who ever go to Mass, unless there is a massive falling away, will go to a NO Mass. Though they did not humbly ask for it, give them the crumbs that fall from the table of what is the truly deserving-to-be-called the wedding supper
Interesting how great intellectual commentary like this is only coming from the traditional movement. “You’ll know them by their fruits.”
I love the TLM deeply, but the only fruits I see coming from commentary like this is division within the bride and a growing shadow of doubt cast on papal authority.
There is only one divider, and he is the enemy of humility and obedience. Let God himself fight for TLM. Let the be no divisions within the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
Viva Cristo Rey
@@MeaningToMatter But wait…..division only comes from the evil one? No friend, you’ve got that one very wrong. Make sure you take a real good look at what Christ actually said about division…”brother against brother”. You don’t think he foresaw a time when men would turn the liturgy more about man than God……shaking hands during the Mass….and the other countless abominations. Oh no……Christ wants to divide make no mistake
@@joelazar8318 Brother,
Christ did desire and pray for unity in the church (John 17: Father, may they be one as you and I are one), even if he did warn that the choice to follow him and reject our own will would indeed divide. But he desired unity.
"How often have I desired to gather your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing.” (Mat. 23:37b)
But if we are in disagreement over the scriptures, or even over the liturgy, by what authority can our disagreement be arbitrated to keep unity in the body? Do we both still humbly obey the authority given by Christ to the seat of Peter?
Matt 16 - (after warning the apostles against the leven of the Pharisees and Sadducees)
18 And I tell you, you are Peter,[d] and on this rock[e] I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
Satan really only has one temptation... To propose that God cannot be trusted and that we need to take matters into our own hands. Humbly, and obediently, "May God rebuke him".
@@MeaningToMatter yes….you’re right…..but He doesn’t want us unified around rap masses, hip-hop masses, juggling masses……you get the point…..He wants unified around Him, right? These treacherous masses, and I hate to even call them masses because they’re not licit, aren’t just one-off incidences. They’re all over the place. I’ve been to Mass in every U.S. state. Trust me, I’ve seen a lot. Tridentine Mass…..always the same…always Christocentric.
@@joelazar8318 we are on the same page there brother! Christ is the center. Always! And there have been so so so many abuses for the sake of novelty and self expression, which is a demonic expression of pride. All of that must go away, and Christ must be at the center, always.
All of that said, we cannot deny that the Holy Spirit inspired the language of liturgical reform in Sacrosanctum Concilium, along with the rest of the council language. I don't pretend to have the answers on that (His ways are not my ways), but I have to accept that somehow, in our vast universal church, the Holy Spirit has deemed that reform of the Latin Mass is absolutely necessary.
Please God, give our Shepard's wisdom, and remind them of their fatherly duties through our humble obedience.
Why is my parish in the thumbnail?
Sadly, restoring the TLM is impossible.
We don't have to restore the TLM. It has produced marvelous fruit throughout the ages. I go to a Catholic Byzantine Rite and it doesn't need restoration either. But the NO is always always changing in its rubrics and innately allows for endless options and novelties. The present Vatican wants these surprises and confusion. Not a few Catholics believe the present Vatican when they admit themselves it's revolutionary. They call it the Synodal church. This counterfeit church will have the buildings and the Catholic faithful, both TLM and NO, will be underground until the Lord resurrects His Church. We must not fear, be hopeful for our joy and trust is in the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords.
My bishop of Virginia( Richmond ) did away with the Latin Mass in the diocese three weeks ago. Now it looks as if Bergoglio will wizen up and not kick the Latin Mass to the curb as suspected.
Will our Bishop reinstate the Latin Mass? It would make common sense. Why not help his sheep gain eternal salvation through tradition? Not modern enough? What a complete chastisement Vatican II has been.
Attend ONLY the Latin Mass, and let’s get the new order abominations out of salvation history. It’s like it’s all been a bad dream
I am also in the Richmond diocese. This is not true. The bishop has sent a request to Rome for a two year extension and has yet to receive a response. In the meantime, he has asked the three parishes in the diocese to halt until he receives a response.
@@JacobC-i8d it is true, he did end the Latin Mass in his diocese. Do you dispute that? Common sense man. The Pope has not abrogated the Latin Mass on the diocesan level. We all thought he would. So the Bishop of Richmond should act accordingly and reinstate all Latin masses immediately. Then he should allow more Latin Masses to spread all throughout his diocese. That would be the Fatherly path to take for a shepherd of the Holy Roman Catholic Church
Do we look up to the clerics who exhibit fear of God or fear of man? Our Bishop could easily reinstate the Latin Mass. but will he? Without Rome? Who does he fear? God or man?
Very good essay. There don’t seem to be any easy answers on this New Order Mass. The TLM/Rev. NO attendees are a different breed and culture from the folk Mass goers. I’d no sooner join one of those churches than embrace American pop culture. Perhaps the folk Mass just needs a slow transformation, starting with real music. I can almost stand the NO Mass were it not for the soul-killing pseudo folk music. As a professional classical singer I attend these Masses (on vacation) as a penance.
On point.
I’m sorry, but I think you’re setting up a strawman argument, and you’re not being totally realistic? Traditionis custodes will seriously limit, if not completely outlaw the TLM. You have to have priests in order to say the TLM. And if the majority of priests are now being denied the faculties to say the TLM, then how can you say the TLM is benefiting from Traditionis custodes?
When you are unable to get to a Latin Mass due to distance and you can not longer sit through another happy, clappy, sappy N.O Jesus is my friend and make Jesus your best friend for life and invite him into you heart nonsense which is by the way a Protestant idea. You find a orthodox N.O. and run you are not leaving the catholic church what you are doing however is leaving the church of the Twilight Zone and the presider is Rod Sterling.
It only takes attending one TLM to know why it was dying and why a reform was called for. Most TLMers today are nothing more than protesters who are convinced, or at least pretend to be convinced, that the TLM and everything else pre-conciliar is the only way to restore some sort of former glory of the Church, completely ingnoring that in 1789, only 226 years after the Council of Trent, the French revolution started, which completely overthrew a Catholic society.
The fact that post V2 many things were misimplemented, lost, and generally messed up is no reason to pretend that we should go back to the way things were before.
What is needed is a correct understanding of the documents of V2, in letter and spirit, so that a proper implementation can be undertaken.
Many TLMers/traditionalist will complain that the mass that was created after the council was not in line with Sacrosanctum Concilium, and fair enough, but none of them have ever even put forward any ideas about how to take the TLM and properly reform it by what had been laid out in Sacramento Concilium.