My God, reading these comments I honestly dont know what the fuss is about. The app is just a simple tool that simplifies a complex system of looking up a table. In the 80's you would had had an electronic device in the middle of the board with buttons that would do a similar thing (see Omega Virus for example) but this is far more interesting than any of those games. The app bit is tiny and the program can easily be recreated i suspect if the company stopped making it. I love the idea that use of apps to augment a game can make more types of games available to be designed.
There are lots of things that phones/tablets/laptops are good for in tabletop gaming.... Looking up rules errata Dice rolling for Descent 2, because the main die is lop-sided Randomizing the bank in Dominion/Puzzle Strike/etc. Keeping score in any game that normally needs paper Playing the sound track to Space Alert or Escape Being the moderator for One Night: Ultimate Werewolf Replacement sand timer Additional timer for your AP prone friends Taking pictures of the board for games you need to continue at a later date PDF versions of rulebooks or RPG splatbooks Passing secret notes for games like Paranoia Mood music
I SLIGHTLY disagree with you about the app concern. There is a chance that the technology would become obsolete... I have so many PC games I can no longer play because the changes in Windows have made it impossible to play them without having some old computer that has that OS to play it on. I am a little concerned about obsolescence. That said, I am excited about the integration of technology into games and this game and what you've said about X-Com has me very excited! Does anyone remember Dark Tower? I STILL love that game.... and let's face it, the dark tower in Dark Tower is pretty much an app before there were apps.
It has been so long and I finally get to table the game yesterday. Had some axe to grind with this game. - rulebook was pretty confusing since they put the text of giving discount after they teach us how to sell potion. They could have do it in proper sequence. - for 2player game, when a player has publish a theory, basically it will result in a runaway leader. Coz every round they will be scoring reputation points. In order to catch up,the other player had to debunked( if they are sure) or run the risk of losing more reputation. Either way, the runaway leader issue is ever present. Especially during conference. Where the players can make even more points. - felt the deduction aspect is water down since we couldn't possible deduce all chemicals in just 6 rounds (maybe there are some hardcore experts who can do it), but I felt the game forces you to press your luck to just publish a theory regardless of whether it is true or not. That totally defeat the purpose of deduction when I can just press my luck and (probably) goes unchallenged. Other than these, good production. But I was expecting a more pure deduction game. I find the other actions distracting. App implementation is good. Doesn't bother me. It could be the future or it could not. Doesn't matter. A well designed game is still a good game even without any apps or overpriced miniatures.
I think the idea behind the obsolescence is that as digital phone makers update their OS and change features, they risk breaking the app. If the company doesn't continually pay a developer to update that app for newer versions of the OS then there's the chance it'll stop working. As many have said, having the analog variant gives a developer all the information they'd need to recreate the app, so it's not that big of a deal for alchemist in specific, but it could be a real issue for the genre as a whole. Tucking a device away, on a stable OS version that runs the app, should be fine for way longer than it will take you to get bored of the game and move on to something newer anyway. Not sure I'd want to include a device for every game though. I like the idea of automating some of the tedium of board games away by using a digital assistant, but I can certainly see the hesitation to meld the two. It's just one step closer to eliminating the "board" from board games. Tabletopia, table top simulator, vr, ar, digital assistants, all contribute to the elimination of the physical, tactile element of the product for a digital one; something a lot of people enjoy.
(I know that it is an old comment, but...) Exactly - developer of the game can go under and after some time the app will no longer be in the app store because it wasn't updated to current technology. Sure - somebody can make a copy of the app but it would likely be illegal. Leaving a device to be dedicated only to an app solves the problem but in no way I would call this an elegant solution. So yeah - after some time it can be a hustle to get the app but it should possible the same way it is possible to get an old CRT monitor for an old console.
One of the most interesting digital/analog mixed games that I've seen so far is Tim "Paperback" Fowers' "Saboteur". It's a social deduction game. The players spend most of the time debating the status of the game and the actions to take while the app calls them one at a time to actually take the actions. The app really becomes the game master and knows the full picture while the players only know about themselves. I think that is the most interesting aspect about this kind of integrations, that allows players to play the game and leave the mastering and managing of stuff to the computer
Does anyone remember Stop Thief? A game from way back in the 80s that also had an electronic device that randomized information and only divulged what you needed to know at any given time. Point being, this concept is older than you think :) Great review, Rahdo :)
Hey, thanks for you answer on Tash Kalar video, i decided to get it over Theseus, but then I thought I might need another cool Czech game for my collection and it came down to Dungeon Petz and Alchemists. I watched your runthrough (can't express enough how much do they help - they should add your videos to gameboxes instead of rulebooks, would be much more helpful ;] ) and after seeing the gameplay I am leaning more to Alchemists. But seeing that you have Dungeon Petz as your no. 2 best game ever and Alchemists is around 100th place, I'm curious what do you like in Petz so much more than in this game. In final thoughts you just said that Alchemists is a longer game and that's your only complaint. Do you have more now? How about depth and replaybility compared to Petz?
I fixed my offset printing colours by just making a colour photocopy of the inside board and gluing it to the original background in the correct place. Voila! With the board closed again the circles are fully coloured. Just make sure you use Matt paper.
Love your reviews! My wife and I played our first Alchemist game last night and absolutely LOVE this game! I agree with all your points about the smartphone thing. The app complements the game so well and really takes a back seat to playing the game. The whole "can I play my game in 10 years" argument is so silly. I mean really, as much as I want to shake some sense into those people so they can enjoy the game TODAY (not in 10 years, not that you WONT be able to play it in 10 years) I guess it's their loss! Anyway, I picked up this game based off your review (which I've done for other games as well -- we love Dungeon Petz, and I found that from your review as well -- your reviews are awesome for us since you guys like similar stuff to what we like), so thanks!
I don't mind the technology becoming obsolete. This app is so simple that any programmer who likes the game can make a new one in no time. If you do not consider the camera part... =)
Really appreciate Rahdo's runthrough of this game! I do take issue with the app comments. I have several video games which are now unplayable because the publishers shut down the servers for it. I also have several printers which are now obsolete simply because drivers are not being updated for them. Will we be able to play this game, Mansions of Madness, and other app-supported games in 10 years. Doubt it ... doubt it very much.
why did you buy those video games in the first place if there was a chance of the servers going down? did you not get your moneys worth in enjoyment? are you never going to buy a server based video game ever again because of this potential issue? and besides, boardgame apps don't require server support... they're fully standalone. your printers didn't become obsolete due to lack of drivers, they became obsolete because you didn't keep the associated PCs in the same configuration to work with them. That's like saying the boardgame app no longer works with the boardgame because the boardgame upgraded but the app didn't (i.e. this can't happen). You're under no obligation to continually upgrade some old android mini tablet... once you've got one that works, you can keep it in the box along with the rest of the game if you're really worried. so, no, i don't doubt it... doubt it at all :)
You're referring to online games. Those require maintenance and server fees to keep up to date. This doesn't have that problem. There's tons of free apps that have never been touched since hitting the market and won't be going anywhere.
@@rahdo There are two problems with your idea of just keeping a $30 phone or tablet in the game. First, are we supposed to do this for each game? That's a lot of expense and old tablets sitting around if your prediction that this is the future of board games is correct. Second, leaving a device with a lithium ion battery laying around and degrading untended over a period of years presents problems in that the battery can degrade to the point where it will not take a charge or it can become a fire hazard.
@@Russellkhan nope, one phone will do. like this one for $15: shop.straighttalk.com/shop/en/straighttalk/top-deals/ZTE-Allstar-LTE-Reconditioned?gclsrc=aw.ds&gclid=CjwKCAjw96fkBRA2EiwAKZjFTVWTLUDlU7ZBztpFev-6TON9KPe3uS6xLtXm6AbG3r-lVg7fgDNoLxoClF0QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds buy that, put all the apps you want on it, and you're done for the rest of your natural lifetime. second, remove the battery if you're concerned about degradation and simply plug it into a wall or a portable external battery. boom! futureproofed digital boardgame integration! :)
Thanks for the interesting run through Rahdo. Too bad about production mistakes on what otherwise looks like a beautiful game. Perhaps CGE, or someone else with enough artistic ability, can fashion an inexpensive sticker overlay to correct the color offset issue found on the player screens.
Luckily our copy has neither of those print quality problems you described, as that would drive my wife crazy! As an aside, interesting seeing the outcry over app implementation in hindsight...kind of similar to the squawking over "Legacy" style games.
I think the concern around longevity with digital components has some validity. The technology does move (your UHF connectors being a case in point), while the analog components are more durable. If my copy of Civ from 1980 had a Merlin-like digital assistant I'd just throw some AAs (9V?) in it and life would be good but today's devices have lithium batteries that aren't designed to last decades (they don't build 'em like they used to!). Been looking forward to CGE's latest - thanks for the run-through!
Jason Kossowan well, as long as we continue to plug electronic devices into outlets on the wall, my cheap droid + powercord will continue to work just fine with the game. and i expect we'll be plugging things into walls for power for the next 50 years at least, so i'm good i think! :)
***** Geeks are geeks... Your answer don't consider "normal" people. Emulator is a strategy easy for you but not everybody is comfortable to find or download or adapt things. If I have to format my phone, do a partition on my internal memory and then install an old whatever... I consider it is NOT user friendly. If you can do it, good for you but don't put yourself in the center thinking that the average person knowledge is the same as yours. Always make me smile when people tells us there is solution... Obviously there is solution if you have the time, the knowledge and the desire. Anyway...
There is a website today you can use to do the phone's job on this game. I'm pretty sure you will not need to be a rocket scientist to load a website in 2040
trustycrunch Emulators aren't rocket science...I imagine if you can't handle loading or playing an emulator then in 10 years you probably won't be able to handle any day to day activity because everything is going to be digitalized/electronic and being able to play an emulator or load one on a computer will be childs play...it kinda already is.
PreppinShootinLivin Your thinking is : I can do it therefor others can do and if they can't well too bad for them they don't deserve to enjoy my hobby. I can personally install an emulator, I know emulator exist etc... My digital literacy is pretty high. It is not a problem for me. But company should never rely on people being able to get out of their way to fix a problem they didn't consider. And if I have to install an emulator to play a boardgame I will not think : "I can do it I am so smart" I will think : "Wow that is stupid." At the end of the day, I consider that boardgame hobby should be inclusive and not selective.
Game looks good and the app really does work in a game like this as it is a part of the tool box, unlike Golem Arcana where I feel the app creates a disconnect from the characters and the game play. What companies choose to do in the future with this combination worries me a little if it gets to the point where they use an app as a cheaper option than using physical components, I really love opening that box and having all those lovely bits to play with. One concern about this game I do have is player down time, it looks as though it may be an issue in 3/4 player games???
zwicky93 an app is always going to be more expensive than physical components. there's so much money that has to go into software dev and testing, boardgame production can't even begin to compete :)
zwicky93 I've demoed a lot of 4 player games. I wouldn't have said there was much downtime at all. Even when another player is scanning in their cards, which takes ~30 seconds, you are doing something, planning ahead, filling in your deduction sheet - preparing your next ingredients. 4 hours seems awfully long for a 2 player game - I was demoing 4 player games to new players at other UK events in about 2.5 to 3 hours. with rules explanations.
zwicky93 ive only played it 2p, and downtime didn't seem like that much of an issue, because you can do most of your deduction from eexperiments while its someone else's turn :)
***** thank you for your videos on this game! it seemed so complicated at first that we couldn't start playing twice. after checking out your videos however everything became much clearer.
Wouldn't a simple solution to the offset just be to have the colored bars printed separately? If you have to "build" and glue your models in some games it wouldn't be that much of a bother to tape or glue a colored sheet on a board.
Agree with you 100%, change CAN be good! Most human being are resistance to change, unfortunately... Thank you for the video and the insight into opening people minds to technology! :)
First let me say, Great run through and great discussion at the end. I think you made some great points. Ill admit, at first I was definitely wary of the introduction to including digital to the board game rule. The part that gave me cause for concern however, isnt quite something you covered, but that to me, it comes across as a gimmick. What it reminds me of (and to relate to your own background more) is something like the xbox kinect. Sure the technology is great and impressive, its fun the first few times you use it, when its the new toy, but in the end its not something that truly draws you in, and enforces replayability. It wasnt something that truly enhanced the game play. (Id argue this was/is the big fault of the Wii, but thats a totally different convo). Now, with all that being said, seeing your runthrough actually opened my eyes to it a bit. The way they integrated the digital app actually truly helped the game, it made the game better, more efficient, and wasnt just technology for technology's sake. If we can continue to see advances and integration like this, I will gladly be accepting of it, but i do still hold my reservations that many games down the road wont be as innovative and will end up being just another gimmick. Again, great run through, i cant wait to try the game myself, i think it looks extemely fun.
not sure, but with any game that comes with a pad of paper to record stuff, if you ever play the game enough to get close to using the whole thing up, simply take it down to a print shop and laminate a few pages, and then you'll never worried about it ever again :)
The program isn't comparable to an Atari 2600 because it is software that runs on an OS. That OS might not and probably will not be available in the future forever. The program might still run but sonner or later it won't. The publisher can make sure that it'll work by patching it or releasing newer versions (which already makes it bothersome for me) but even they won't be around forever. I'm not even looking to far into the future. There are enough video games that don't run properly on current systems anymore. Also, Technology tends to break or be buggy, probably even more so when you use your phone for more than just running board game apps on it. Board games last way longer. Even if something breaks, the color fades out or whatever the game is mostly still functional and easy to repair. You're always provoking more defects when making yourself dependent on technology than when you're not. Everyone knows that from day to day life. I'm not holding any grudges against the makers of Alchemists. As far as i can see the digital component seems to be well integrated. What i am afraid of is that this will become THE THING and everyone will want to include digital components, whether it's necessary or not. I think a good deal of scepticism is just reasonable. Hyping ANYTHING is never a good idea.
Gnarrkhaz why won't it be availalbe in the future? buy a cheap iphone 3 on ebay right now for $25... install the app... put the phone and power cord in the box along with the rest of the game... you'll be able to play the game forever (or at least, until we no longer support plugging electronic devices into wall sockets)
***** That just made the game $25 more expensive. I appreciate your passion, but I think you're being idealistic. I own lots of games that are 20+ years old: Catan, Magic Realm, Manhattan, El Grande. Now imagine if any of those games had software for them. How would I play them? Do you seriously think people would play these games if they had to pull out their old computers every time they come to the table? Would it be reasonable to ask them to save their 1982 Commodore to play Broadsides and Boarding Parties, their 1990 Macintosh LC to play Hoity Toity, and their 1999 iMac to play Tigris and Euphrates? What about resale value? Twelve years from now, who would buy a game if there was no way to play it (unless they had a program already installed on their phone)? You seriously don't think there will be ANY problems with this down the line?
Tierbandiger It's tough to find an accurate comparison because this is cutting edge stuff. Between America and Europe, smartphone adoption is closing in on 70%. That number is only going to increase, going forward. Even if this game falls out of production, it costs nothing for CGE to leave the app hanging on the app store and Google Play. If the app works now, it works forever. I can't think of any OS upgrade that completely broke an app. It may be less efficient, it may not be optimized, but they don't just _break_. So whenever we're only iOS 16 or Android ZigZag, that ages old Alchemists app can still chug through its calculations for your ancient, battered Alchemists game from way back in 2014. It wouldn't be reasonable to ask someone to pull out their Commodore to play Broadsides because the Commodore had no notion of cloud storage or online software stores. The point today is that this app is free and it will always be free, and barring the Apocalypse, will always be available as bits and bytes to transfer from some server in Nevada to whatever future device you have in your household. EDIT: Also, if you didn't want the game to be $25 more expensive, there's always the "gamemaster" inclusion, but as ***** has said, that would be insanely boring. I suppose one solution would be to fill the back of the manual with charts, but there's so much secret information to be divulged, I'm not sure how reliable that would be to discourage cheating. In any case, games have used charts for years and that would be hardly pushing the boundaries of gaming forward, so I am really excited for this one.
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***** the real question here is : does it work without an internet connection ? I guess the "team" part (where you enter the game code to connect different apps) needs the connection, but does the app itself need it ?
Sébastien Dougnac I think, and this is all conjecture based on one app review in the play store that criticizes the idea that theoretically, one could deduce everything from the code, that the app has its own chart built in and each code is assigned to a different game state. So no Internet necessary, you just punch in which game you're playing on all the phones. I can't imagine it affects replay value unless you actively try to memorize the codes, because there must be thousands of combos of elements to make up different games.
with apps, what im worried about is that if the company goes under and the app is lost, the game is useless. if you didn't have it already on your phone you cant get the app. it may not happen. its just a concern of will the app allways be there for download. say google updates the play store and for some reason the app is not compatible to download, if there is no one to update the app, then its lost. I would say its a legit worry, even though the chances are slim.
atari went out of business decades ago, and yet I can still play the beloved console games of my childhood today! www.free80sarcade.com/2600_Adventure.php the realities of digital archiving means that apps never go away. in 30 years, they won't run on your iphone 18, but they will run via android emulators on whatever supercomputer platform we have at the time. :)
That's not how offline apps work especially free ones; nobody needs to "update" it just like nobody goes in and updates a copy of Myst from 1997. The game has been made you just need to play.
I had an initial knee-jerk reaction to the soft app requirement, but it's really just a level up in sophistication over those "real-time" games that included a CD in the box (Space Alert and Escape, for example). We praised those games for being innovative. Additionally, this app would be so trivial to program that any well-heeled software developer could put out their own version of it, should "digital rot" be an actual problem. I'm not concerned. I'd worry about future app compat issues in the future, not right now.
CDs are a good example of fantastic game innovation, but a technical dependency that makes playing the game a pain. We had to dig around the house for an old boom box for 20 mins last time we cracked Escape!
the lines bother me aswel, counters can be fixed but this maybe won't be fixed :( I'm gonne play it this evening with my family so i'm curious how they will like it. Cause it's a bit on the heavyer side. But hey i won this game on a BGG contest so no money wasted if they won't like the game.
I played this at Essen and we liked it a lot. I thought luck was a big factor, but I liked it enough to play again. The app is very nice, but gave a few "errors". Two times (on 30 minutes, we stopped after 30 min') we got a result different then the cards on our screen. So, if I wanted I could have cheated, and would have got more information. That and the production errors (chips didn't fit very well, so they dropped out, + and - on both sides - I HATED THIS - so when they dropped, I didn't know what value they had!) made me think twice. I didn't buy it (euhm, it was also sold out at that moment, lol) The problem with the app recognizing wrong cards can be solved I think (they should have put small icons that are easy to recognize in my opinion) One time the error I got was because my card was upside down, so I got a wrong result. The app should say: card is upside down. (should be possible, there are 3 circles on the corners of the cards, maybe for solving this problem in the near future) The cardboard problems will be fixed in next prints. So, a must buy for our boardgame-club in the future!
Cards upside down is not a problem, the app recognises them just fine. Sorry to hear about your card recognition issues. I demoed the game all four days, many many times. There was only once where it scanned the wrong card, but you should always check it before pressing confirm. We also had no counters falling out of the grid at all, maybe we were just putting them in more. And the production issues are not only being fixed in the next printing, but CGE are sending out fixed components in the next few weeks to everyone who bought it.
Gaming Rules! Indeed, you have to press confirm, so it's not a big deal. Two times we got the curly green thingy but another card (once upside down) was scanned. So, is it a problem? Not really, but it's a shame.
Pieter Van Conkelberge but would this be different in an analog game with hidden information. Players can lie and cheat there too. As well in analog games you could look up the wrong information in the book and report back bad info. These aren't issues that only exist with games that have digital additions. But I can certainly understand if these things turn someone off.
Yeah, if you're going to cheat, you can just cheat in other ways. The presence of an app doesn't make cheating any more likely to happen than in other games.
+Mssquishi1 we havent' played it for quite awhile. i rarely get to revisit games (even ones that we love) because i'm always having to move on to new games to cover
A flaw about your Atari argument, is that those old computers are actually more durable than anything you can buy today. Back then it was built to last, while today it's built to last until the next model comes out.
Y'know, today it occurred to me that the people concerned about some sort of obsolescence because of the app most likely have it exactly 180 degrees wrong. In addition to the fact that including the "GM" option as physical components gives future programmers all the information they need to write a new app for any device (which others have already pointed out)... well... anything digital can be copied over and over and over again without ANY degradation in quality and is preserved PERFECTLY. Which is why it's far more likely that - oh, say a thousand years from now - some guy will run across the app or the rules PDF (or even this video!) in an archive somewhere and wish that somebody had bothered to make digital versions of the PHYSICAL components, rather than the other way around.
What if I don't have an atari and I need one to play that game from 30yr ago? What if your atari drops on the ground and breaks, as fagile as smartphones are today? I don't believe in putting a 30$ phone in a box just for that reason. In 10 years phones nor apps will desintegrate that is correct. But the requirements for app devs might be different and the current app will need a rework. In 30 years from now I doubt there will be such an app in the appstore, unless a programmer playing the game keeps developing it.
Yeah, I'm not as excited about the app stuff. Not that I'm opposed to it on principle, but I just think it's going to be a fad, not the future. When designers start developing for smartphones just because they're the "in thing" (as opposed to because the game requires some sort of operation/calculation that the players cannot do by themselves), they will have moved beyond innovation and into mere marketing. We'll see how they sell. Lucky for me, I'll save lots of money by ignoring these games (and I need any excuse I can find to prevent myself from being interested in a new game these days)
I'm sorry but this is still an issue. I don't believe in the Apocalypse, I don't believe in the power cut crap, I just believe it's the beginning of the end for boardgames as we know them. As everything invasive, it starts small. Very small. Almost nothing. Then it becomes the rule and it spreads. Remember that it started with iPhones friendly games which didn't need iphones to be played. Iphones just enhanced the games. Now it's more than that already: this is the first game almost unplayable without a smartphone. What's next? As I said, it started small and it's already a little bit bigger and invasive, isn't it? I'm a web and app developper and I just don't want to HAVE TO use a website, a smartphone or anything virtual when I play boardgames. By letting this happen now at a small scale we allow this to a larger scale later. And when we wake up, it'll be way too late. There are plenty of boardgames that appeared this year which make somehow use of a smartphone. There are 4 that I know of, only for the year 2014 (ZNA, World of Yo-ho, Alchemists, Z first impact) and I know there are others! So no, it's not an isolated case, it's a strong tendency. And when Rahdo says that it enhances the game and that that alone is a valid argument, I say that an engine on a bike would probably enhance it also. A new pair of fake boobs may improve your wife (nothing personal) and a cyborg brain may improve you to that point that you will not even know if you're still a human or not. But you'll be enhanced alright! It's just that some of us don't want the games to be enhanced in such way that they become hybrids. They become dependent. There is still plenty to do without binary code. We want fun as when we are kids. Something not virtual at all. Of course you can buy a cheap smartphone for your game but is this debunked? No sir, it's just naïve. It'll work for alchemists but nor for what's coming next. In the years to come, when the cloud is the new reference and apps are dematerialized, how would you even start your app that is not on the cloud anymore? This is the known and planned close future, not even some vague prophecy, and all the "put a smartphone inside your box" is already futile because it's not about the gear you have at home at all but well about the service you can access online. It will not depend on you anymore. It's already the case for some apps.There are so many scenarios that are possible that Rahdo's can't debunk them all. That's the definition of the future: you never know. And as the economy is based on the planned obsolescence, your are almost sure that you won't be able to use this app in less than 10 years because it's precisely the goal of the economic game: obsolescence. This is exactly why Adobe software (photoshop) and Microsoft Office are now exclusively online and that the cloud has been put in place. Shit might happen and our last concern would be Alchemists and that's true. But if we allow that for this game we allow that for any game that is still to be created. Eventually we don't bet on a single game, we bet on our entire hobby. You don't need any apocalypse to make it happen. All you need is modern economy. And when Rahdo says that we can bring new arguments he will debunk them, I answer that there is nothing to debunk when it comes to like or not like something. Sure we can just DON'T BUY what we don't like and move on but it's not relevant because the offer will increase and eventually, step by step, we are out of the hobby, pure and simple. The thing I like about boardgames is that they were not concerned by that enhancement race so far. It was a safe haven to me. Now it's another product on which we can apply the damned planned obsolescence. This ruins the hobby for a lot of people like me and I'm pissed. Debunk that! PS: someone has to come from the future (Terminator or 12 monkey's style) and manage to eradicate this game. It's the first of its kind and it will lead us to our doom ;-)
lexgotham as a web developer, I imagine you're well aware of the hugely increased costs (both for development and support) that come from adding digital content to a boardgame. That alone is going to prevent the "doomsday scenario" of 100% digital apps required for all boardgames. It's simply not economically viable, when profit margins are already razor thin, for the vast majority of boardgame developers to add digital content, whether they want to or not.Nevermind the fact that digital chess has been available for decades now, and yet, the vast majority of people who play chess do it analog. Where's the "chess doomsday scenario" where all analog chess is replaced with digital? It hasn't happen yet after 30+ years, so maybe - just maybe - it won't happen for boardgames either. And even if somehow you're right and within 10 years, all new boardgames will require apps (which again, is simply not going to happen because it's not economically possible, and history has proven that it won't happen, but let's go with the assumption anyway) fortunately you'll have thousands of games available to you already that don't require apps and have no expiration date, so again, you've really got nothing to worry about. So, since you refuse to "enhance" your gameplay for whatever reason, you won't be able to play Puerto Rico 2020, but who cares? You can still play Puerto Rico :) Your argument also seem to be "hey, we've gotten along just great without digital enhancement for quite awhile now, so clearly it's not needed", and by that argument, modern boardgames don't need to exist at all because we've gotten by just fine for millennia with Chess, Backgammon, and simple dice & card games. So who needs new fancy enhancements like rondels, deckbuilding, etc. etc. You arguments about apps not being on the cloud anymore in the future is again not valid (IMO), because I am capable right now of making my own personal backups of data. Yes, that data can be lost over time, but so can my boardgames through mold, fire, neglect, etc. Nothing lasts forever, whether analog or digital. So again, not sure why you're worried about technology decaying, but not physical goods decaying, when one is no more or less likely than the other to suffer the same fate :) You can choose to positive and optimistic about the future, or negative and pessimistic - it's entirely your call. However, the evolution of human society over the last 10,000 years has repeatedly proven over and over again that as time moves forward, things get better, not worse. Assuming as you do that they'll get worse instead of better is debunked by the whole of human history, but you're well within your rights to assume that's how things will go down. Myself, I'm happy and exicted that boardgame design continues to evolve and enhance itself. Do not fear the future, it's full of awesome! :)
Thank you for your answer Rahdo. For the data backup part: it's no about the data but well about the software that allows you to read the data. The data without the software is just garbage. Two days ago I bought the last version of Pro Tools and wanted to open a 2 years old file with it. Guess what? And I'm not even considering that your data will eventually be stored somewhere else (hard drives are so 2010...), which will need a subscription to access it (iCloud is not the future, it's very present tense and it's just the beginning). I'm curious to know if you'll keep on subscribing for 10 years to a cloud storage service only to access the old software/data needed to play your old-fashioned-but-once-enhanced boardgames. If not, the counter is already ticking. For the cost part: Kickstarter is a perfect example where boardgames like ZNA are extensively enhanced with a smartphone or pad and the targeted public is ok to pay more than 150 dollars for a game. After all the enhancement is worth the price isn't it? It's a niche public for now but If they rare willing to pay such an amount, eventually everyone will have to. It will become a standard price that will be justified by the app development costs. To day it is all about goodies and tomorrow, these goodies will naturally be replaced by software features. Ok with it or not, you comply or you leave and find some other hobby. For the Puerto Rico 2020 part (rather Puerto Rico v20.20): yes you are right and that's the problem. I will be forced to play Puerto Rico 2000 for ever, what a relief! The future has not even started yet that you are already announcing my biggest fear as if it were taken for granted: I must comply or I'm left behind and you seem ok with it already. For the decay part: A board game will naturally decay but it decays very slowly and can last 20 years easily. Computer hardware decay much slower physically, but they become obsolete in no time. You can still play "Cosmic Encounter first edition" today, I'm not sure you'll be able to have use of any computer of that era. Imagine that the game would have been made to work with one of those and that you had to keep one with the box to play this game nowadays. And what about the games that needed a VHS in the 80's? The reason we don't care is that these games were awful but what if one of these wasn't? Anyway, I heard your point and you heard mine. Your virtual chess is a valid point but to a certain extend: It was a very isolated case and if we don't play with it nowadays it is precisely because it was an enhancement of that time that is completely ridiculous today. The problem now is that it will not be an isolated case. Too many games this year using smartphones and they keep it coming. As I said, it's all about knowing the future and nobody does. I don't know the future either but I can see the past and I'm pretty sure that a debunker from the 80's would have been wrong on any prediction regarding the present days. You can say the same for me and I admit it but a constant seems to give me some credit: the way the economy is evolving. Before, any of your tech gear would have lasted 20 years, now, you buy the same thing to fulfill the same need for 2 years max, over and over and the previous version of it is just garbage. Worse: Lately you don't even buy things, you rent them for a period of time and they just vanish in thin air if you don't pay your monthly subscription. It's true for your files, videos, book, comics and photographs and it's already true for some of your app's. You don't possess things anymore, you have access to them temporarily at your provider's discretion. This can't be applied to physical things and that's why physical things are merged with virtual app's nowadays. Because this way, even things you buy are for rental somehow. You don't throw them when they don't work anymore, you throw them when there is no service provided for them to work anymore. And why the hell everything has to be dematerialized to a certain extend anyway? Why do we have to virtualize everything and call it an enhancement? Because of that. It's a win-lose situation in disguise but it's shiny, tasty and convenient…for a while. That's why we comply. But ultimately, we don't get anything, we give things up. I know we will not agree on this and it would be ok if wasn't about to lose something just because you want more of something that still has plenty to offer. They did it with movies and books and now they do it with boardgames. What's next? I love computers and software but they just don't have to be applied to everything. When they do, they have to deal with Moore's law. Some things must remain 100% IRL. At least, let's agree that enhancements are alright but they should stay optional. This, I'm completely ok with. This way you keep your enhancements and we keep our stand alone game for decades. And even if you don't agree with this, let's at least agree that you might be right but I might too. The point is that it goes way beyond the upcoming apocalypse and a Mad Max scenario and that there is room for a serious debate here. It's not about Alchemists alone, it's bigger than that. Thank you for your attention and keep on doing what you do, it's brilliant and i'm a huge fan (and sorry for my poor english, I'm from Europe as you might have guessed). Regards.
lexgotham your english is fantastic, btw! i had no idea you weren't a native speaker! :) and you're right, we can agree to disagree... i was ready to write up a whole list of counters to your points (ZNA project failed because software dev cost was too high, i can still play VCR games today via ebay, emulators will always exist to ensure old software is runnable, etc.) but we can agree to disagree :)
lexgotham Yeah, I'm a bit late to this discussion, so sorry for that. I haven't played the game yet, but I think that thanks to the brilliant runthrough I can judge the discussed issues well enough. First of all I really like the approach on the scientific method by this game and definitely consider buying it solely for this mechanic, but I also don't like SOME aspects of the smartphone integration. My biggest problem with this is that I think it might work as a trigger to increase the number of smartphones on the table at gaming nights even more (if that is even possible) or at least earlier. At our usual gaming nights (which are also partial class reunions) we usually are roughly 7-10 people. The longest we ever stay smartphone-free is till our host orders the pizza. After that you can set your timers. Within 30 minutes everyone (except me) will have their smartphones in front of them on the table and they won't vanish for the rest of the night. And I think games like these will just offer more chances and reasons to justify getting your smartphone out on the table. In my gaming group it's already too late, but if your groups have stayed smartphone-free up until now, congratulations and I can understand your feelings of uneasiness towards this game. The use of smartphones at any time has gotten second nature so fast that people don't even think about it anymore. This constant interruption and the visual demonstration of how low you value your conversation partners has somehow managed to go from unacceptable and impolite to everpresent. And if you see boardgames as a way to escape reality (the number of people with this view should be rather high for boardgames) then this evolution is not to be taken lightly. But the bigger impact is still your gaming group. You are ALREADY forced to find like-minded people to sustain this refuge. The second point to discuss is the possibility to play this and other games in the future if the necessary software, operating system or hardware vanishes or becomes unaccessible due to digital rights restrictions. For THIS game, the price to pay will be either to torture one of your friends, or to learn programming (always useful) and apply that skill for less than one hour (if you only care about the functionality and don't care about fancy graphics and image recognition), or to build a relatively intricate marble run that "computes" the lookup result for you, if you want to stay microelectronics-free. If you want to go for effectiveness, you should probably go for solution two, if you favor style, then the marble run it is. For boardgames in general, there are two things I can imagine, that smartphones can assist with. The first one is basic computational power and the other one is managing hidden information. If a board game needs so much computational power, that you can't do the calculations in your head anymore it just should have become a computer game. If the game however contains hidden information that has to stay secret to ALL players as it is the case here, I think smartphones are a valueble tool (and nothing more) to enable those game systems. If none of these points can be applied, and this will concern the majority of future boardgames, then I highly doubt any designer would go to the lengths of develloping a dedicated app. The last question is a matter of owning ALL rights to the things you have bought. This is a principle that is getting undermined constantly by new e-commerce models, and is well worth discussing, but if you care about that, there are better (and more urgent) places for that discussion than boardgames. I hope this late comment has brought a new perspective on the discussion. Thanks for reading.
The game is not a deduction game at all unless you count cards and what other people did.. It's more of a luck menegement. There's a lot of luck involved in the deduction part as well.. Maybe it works differently on 4 players but it was quite weak for me. It's all 1:8 or 1:4 or 1:2 chance and if you got more info you can be sure. It all depends if you're lucky enough to get 3 different color potions quickly. My first game I got 43/50 points while learning the game.. I would get 48/50 if I risked placing 5 star paper while having 50% chance of correct thesis.. For such a long game it's not really exciting as it could/should be to me.
I don't know why everyone's complaining - it comes with an analogue version of the app anyway! If you're playing at say a hall with other board games being played near you or whatever, i'm sure someone else who is playing a different game wouldn't mind refereeing your game while playing their own game - I wouldn't mind! Besides. Game looks good. App or no app, the game looks good. Isn't that the point? Also, it costs like £25 / $30, have you never paid that much for a day out? That didn't last forever! It lasted a day! Who cares?! Just play!
What about the gateway argument? Lord knows I love alchemists. It's brilliant, it's beautiful and the app works wonderfully but it did pave the way for a potential disaster. Take the new mansions of madness. It's basically a video game. Sure you have physical components but so much of the game is played on the app it feels nothing like a real board game.
I'll be honest, I stopped watching around the beginning of the discussion about the integration of digital into board games. I have no strong feelings about it one way or another... in fact, I sometimes even wonder why there aren't more purely digital implementations of board games akin to what Days of Wonder has done with Ticket and Memoir. My question is simple. According to the review, this is a 2+ hr game. What effect does that have on your iPhone's battery life? i.e. Would you recommend that everybody should have their phones plugged in while you play?
chanm01 well, in those 2 hours, the phone is only used for maybe a total of 2 minutes per player, and the rest of the time it's left off, so it shouldn't be a problem :)
I will pass. My attention span isn't for $#|+, so I don't require jamming board games in the realm of techie dependency. It isn't clever at all; it is just forcing something along because the masses already have done it with their lives. I am as free of a 'smart' phone as I am of the need for digital help at the game table. Thanks for the runthrough as well as your insights, Richard, but I will resist this as long as I can.
This game looks pretty sucky in my opinion, and not just because of the smartphone gimmick. I don't think you are right that this is the future of the board game industry. I understand why you are biased that way, as a former video game guy. It will probably go in and out of fashion,like a fad, like 3D does every now and again for movies...
My God, reading these comments I honestly dont know what the fuss is about. The app is just a simple tool that simplifies a complex system of looking up a table. In the 80's you would had had an electronic device in the middle of the board with buttons that would do a similar thing (see Omega Virus for example) but this is far more interesting than any of those games. The app bit is tiny and the program can easily be recreated i suspect if the company stopped making it. I love the idea that use of apps to augment a game can make more types of games available to be designed.
I am finally getting ready to get this game to the table and just felt like writing: The app is still working...😉
There are lots of things that phones/tablets/laptops are good for in tabletop gaming....
Looking up rules errata
Dice rolling for Descent 2, because the main die is lop-sided
Randomizing the bank in Dominion/Puzzle Strike/etc.
Keeping score in any game that normally needs paper
Playing the sound track to Space Alert or Escape
Being the moderator for One Night: Ultimate Werewolf
Replacement sand timer
Additional timer for your AP prone friends
Taking pictures of the board for games you need to continue at a later date
PDF versions of rulebooks or RPG splatbooks
Passing secret notes for games like Paranoia
Mood music
Man, I love the way you communicate! I consider your channel the very best boardgame channel of youtube.
I SLIGHTLY disagree with you about the app concern. There is a chance that the technology would become obsolete... I have so many PC games I can no longer play because the changes in Windows have made it impossible to play them without having some old computer that has that OS to play it on. I am a little concerned about obsolescence.
That said, I am excited about the integration of technology into games and this game and what you've said about X-Com has me very excited!
Does anyone remember Dark Tower? I STILL love that game.... and let's face it, the dark tower in Dark Tower is pretty much an app before there were apps.
Coming up on 10 years soon. Awesome to come across this so late and hear the predictions.
It has been so long and I finally get to table the game yesterday. Had some axe to grind with this game.
- rulebook was pretty confusing since they put the text of giving discount after they teach us how to sell potion. They could have do it in proper sequence.
- for 2player game, when a player has publish a theory, basically it will result in a runaway leader. Coz every round they will be scoring reputation points. In order to catch up,the other player had to debunked( if they are sure) or run the risk of losing more reputation. Either way, the runaway leader issue is ever present. Especially during conference. Where the players can make even more points.
- felt the deduction aspect is water down since we couldn't possible deduce all chemicals in just 6 rounds (maybe there are some hardcore experts who can do it), but I felt the game forces you to press your luck to just publish a theory regardless of whether it is true or not. That totally defeat the purpose of deduction when I can just press my luck and (probably) goes unchallenged.
Other than these, good production. But I was expecting a more pure deduction game. I find the other actions distracting. App implementation is good. Doesn't bother me. It could be the future or it could not. Doesn't matter. A well designed game is still a good game even without any apps or overpriced miniatures.
I think the idea behind the obsolescence is that as digital phone makers update their OS and change features, they risk breaking the app. If the company doesn't continually pay a developer to update that app for newer versions of the OS then there's the chance it'll stop working. As many have said, having the analog variant gives a developer all the information they'd need to recreate the app, so it's not that big of a deal for alchemist in specific, but it could be a real issue for the genre as a whole. Tucking a device away, on a stable OS version that runs the app, should be fine for way longer than it will take you to get bored of the game and move on to something newer anyway. Not sure I'd want to include a device for every game though. I like the idea of automating some of the tedium of board games away by using a digital assistant, but I can certainly see the hesitation to meld the two. It's just one step closer to eliminating the "board" from board games. Tabletopia, table top simulator, vr, ar, digital assistants, all contribute to the elimination of the physical, tactile element of the product for a digital one; something a lot of people enjoy.
(I know that it is an old comment, but...)
Exactly - developer of the game can go under and after some time the app will no longer be in the app store because it wasn't updated to current technology. Sure - somebody can make a copy of the app but it would likely be illegal. Leaving a device to be dedicated only to an app solves the problem but in no way I would call this an elegant solution.
So yeah - after some time it can be a hustle to get the app but it should possible the same way it is possible to get an old CRT monitor for an old console.
One of the most interesting digital/analog mixed games that I've seen so far is Tim "Paperback" Fowers' "Saboteur". It's a social deduction game. The players spend most of the time debating the status of the game and the actions to take while the app calls them one at a time to actually take the actions. The app really becomes the game master and knows the full picture while the players only know about themselves. I think that is the most interesting aspect about this kind of integrations, that allows players to play the game and leave the mastering and managing of stuff to the computer
Does anyone remember Stop Thief? A game from way back in the 80s that also had an electronic device that randomized information and only divulged what you needed to know at any given time.
Point being, this concept is older than you think :) Great review, Rahdo :)
I'm with you on the digital bit. As long as it does gameplay and the game a favor, there's no harm.
Hey, thanks for you answer on Tash Kalar video, i decided to get it over Theseus, but then I thought I might need another cool Czech game for my collection and it came down to Dungeon Petz and Alchemists. I watched your runthrough (can't express enough how much do they help - they should add your videos to gameboxes instead of rulebooks, would be much more helpful ;] ) and after seeing the gameplay I am leaning more to Alchemists. But seeing that you have Dungeon Petz as your no. 2 best game ever and Alchemists is around 100th place, I'm curious what do you like in Petz so much more than in this game. In final thoughts you just said that Alchemists is a longer game and that's your only complaint. Do you have more now? How about depth and replaybility compared to Petz?
RafNen i talked about this in my top10 of 2014 update th-cam.com/video/7eovllvIzAw/w-d-xo.html :)
I fixed my offset printing colours by just making a colour photocopy of the inside board and gluing it to the original background in the correct place. Voila! With the board closed again the circles are fully coloured. Just make sure you use Matt paper.
Love your reviews! My wife and I played our first Alchemist game last night and absolutely LOVE this game! I agree with all your points about the smartphone thing. The app complements the game so well and really takes a back seat to playing the game. The whole "can I play my game in 10 years" argument is so silly. I mean really, as much as I want to shake some sense into those people so they can enjoy the game TODAY (not in 10 years, not that you WONT be able to play it in 10 years) I guess it's their loss!
Anyway, I picked up this game based off your review (which I've done for other games as well -- we love Dungeon Petz, and I found that from your review as well -- your reviews are awesome for us since you guys like similar stuff to what we like), so thanks!
I don't mind the technology becoming obsolete. This app is so simple that any programmer who likes the game can make a new one in no time. If you do not consider the camera part... =)
Really appreciate Rahdo's runthrough of this game! I do take issue with the app comments. I have several video games which are now unplayable because the publishers shut down the servers for it. I also have several printers which are now obsolete simply because drivers are not being updated for them. Will we be able to play this game, Mansions of Madness, and other app-supported games in 10 years. Doubt it ... doubt it very much.
why did you buy those video games in the first place if there was a chance of the servers going down? did you not get your moneys worth in enjoyment? are you never going to buy a server based video game ever again because of this potential issue?
and besides, boardgame apps don't require server support... they're fully standalone.
your printers didn't become obsolete due to lack of drivers, they became obsolete because you didn't keep the associated PCs in the same configuration to work with them. That's like saying the boardgame app no longer works with the boardgame because the boardgame upgraded but the app didn't (i.e. this can't happen).
You're under no obligation to continually upgrade some old android mini tablet... once you've got one that works, you can keep it in the box along with the rest of the game if you're really worried.
so, no, i don't doubt it... doubt it at all :)
You're referring to online games. Those require maintenance and server fees to keep up to date. This doesn't have that problem. There's tons of free apps that have never been touched since hitting the market and won't be going anywhere.
@@rahdo There are two problems with your idea of just keeping a $30 phone or tablet in the game. First, are we supposed to do this for each game? That's a lot of expense and old tablets sitting around if your prediction that this is the future of board games is correct. Second, leaving a device with a lithium ion battery laying around and degrading untended over a period of years presents problems in that the battery can degrade to the point where it will not take a charge or it can become a fire hazard.
@@Russellkhan nope, one phone will do. like this one for $15: shop.straighttalk.com/shop/en/straighttalk/top-deals/ZTE-Allstar-LTE-Reconditioned?gclsrc=aw.ds&gclid=CjwKCAjw96fkBRA2EiwAKZjFTVWTLUDlU7ZBztpFev-6TON9KPe3uS6xLtXm6AbG3r-lVg7fgDNoLxoClF0QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
buy that, put all the apps you want on it, and you're done for the rest of your natural lifetime.
second, remove the battery if you're concerned about degradation and simply plug it into a wall or a portable external battery.
boom! futureproofed digital boardgame integration! :)
Thanks for the interesting run through Rahdo.
Too bad about production mistakes on what otherwise looks like a beautiful game. Perhaps CGE, or someone else with enough artistic ability, can fashion an inexpensive sticker overlay to correct the color offset issue found on the player screens.
Luckily our copy has neither of those print quality problems you described, as that would drive my wife crazy! As an aside, interesting seeing the outcry over app implementation in hindsight...kind of similar to the squawking over "Legacy" style games.
I got this game as a present from my girlfriend yesterday and watching your videos made it easier to understand :) cool videos BTW!
I think the concern around longevity with digital components has some validity. The technology does move (your UHF connectors being a case in point), while the analog components are more durable. If my copy of Civ from 1980 had a Merlin-like digital assistant I'd just throw some AAs (9V?) in it and life would be good but today's devices have lithium batteries that aren't designed to last decades (they don't build 'em like they used to!).
Been looking forward to CGE's latest - thanks for the run-through!
Jason Kossowan well, as long as we continue to plug electronic devices into outlets on the wall, my cheap droid + powercord will continue to work just fine with the game. and i expect we'll be plugging things into walls for power for the next 50 years at least, so i'm good i think! :)
***** Geeks are geeks... Your answer don't consider "normal" people. Emulator is a strategy easy for you but not everybody is comfortable to find or download or adapt things. If I have to format my phone, do a partition on my internal memory and then install an old whatever... I consider it is NOT user friendly. If you can do it, good for you but don't put yourself in the center thinking that the average person knowledge is the same as yours.
Always make me smile when people tells us there is solution... Obviously there is solution if you have the time, the knowledge and the desire. Anyway...
There is a website today you can use to do the phone's job on this game. I'm pretty sure you will not need to be a rocket scientist to load a website in 2040
trustycrunch Emulators aren't rocket science...I imagine if you can't handle loading or playing an emulator then in 10 years you probably won't be able to handle any day to day activity because everything is going to be digitalized/electronic and being able to play an emulator or load one on a computer will be childs play...it kinda already is.
PreppinShootinLivin Your thinking is : I can do it therefor others can do and if they can't well too bad for them they don't deserve to enjoy my hobby.
I can personally install an emulator, I know emulator exist etc... My digital literacy is pretty high. It is not a problem for me. But company should never rely on people being able to get out of their way to fix a problem they didn't consider. And if I have to install an emulator to play a boardgame I will not think : "I can do it I am so smart" I will think : "Wow that is stupid."
At the end of the day, I consider that boardgame hobby should be inclusive and not selective.
+Jean-François Bessette actually my 6 year old iphone 3 that still works fine would beg to differ :)
I'm looking forward to this game so much! Regarding the miscolouration, there is a solution available on BGG.
Game looks good and the app really does work in a game like this as it is a part of the tool box, unlike Golem Arcana where I feel the app creates a disconnect from the characters and the game play. What companies choose to do in the future with this combination worries me a little if it gets to the point where they use an app as a cheaper option than using physical components, I really love opening that box and having all those lovely bits to play with.
One concern about this game I do have is player down time, it looks as though it may be an issue in 3/4 player games???
zwicky93 an app is always going to be more expensive than physical components. there's so much money that has to go into software dev and testing, boardgame production can't even begin to compete :)
***** I didn't realise that.....thanks :)
Any thoughts on the player down time in this?
zwicky93 I've demoed a lot of 4 player games. I wouldn't have said there was much downtime at all. Even when another player is scanning in their cards, which takes ~30 seconds, you are doing something, planning ahead, filling in your deduction sheet - preparing your next ingredients. 4 hours seems awfully long for a 2 player game - I was demoing 4 player games to new players at other UK events in about 2.5 to 3 hours. with rules explanations.
Gaming Rules! That's really good to know thank you for the feedback, this really does look an interesting game
zwicky93 ive only played it 2p, and downtime didn't seem like that much of an issue, because you can do most of your deduction from eexperiments while its someone else's turn :)
***** thank you for your videos on this game! it seemed so complicated at first that we couldn't start playing twice. after checking out your videos however everything became much clearer.
Wouldn't a simple solution to the offset just be to have the colored bars printed separately? If you have to "build" and glue your models in some games it wouldn't be that much of a bother to tape or glue a colored sheet on a board.
***** yup some people have done exactly this.. there's a file you can get and print on bgg :)
Agree with you 100%, change CAN be good! Most human being are resistance to change, unfortunately...
Thank you for the video and the insight into opening people minds to technology! :)
I use the Agricola and 7 wonders scoring apps because they're time savers and I don't have to do math.
I don't mind having an app for a game.
just ordered my own copy from amazon!!!
First let me say, Great run through and great discussion at the end. I think you made some great points. Ill admit, at first I was definitely wary of the introduction to including digital to the board game rule. The part that gave me cause for concern however, isnt quite something you covered, but that to me, it comes across as a gimmick. What it reminds me of (and to relate to your own background more) is something like the xbox kinect. Sure the technology is great and impressive, its fun the first few times you use it, when its the new toy, but in the end its not something that truly draws you in, and enforces replayability. It wasnt something that truly enhanced the game play. (Id argue this was/is the big fault of the Wii, but thats a totally different convo).
Now, with all that being said, seeing your runthrough actually opened my eyes to it a bit. The way they integrated the digital app actually truly helped the game, it made the game better, more efficient, and wasnt just technology for technology's sake. If we can continue to see advances and integration like this, I will gladly be accepting of it, but i do still hold my reservations that many games down the road wont be as innovative and will end up being just another gimmick.
Again, great run through, i cant wait to try the game myself, i think it looks extemely fun.
Im more concerned about the slips of paper thats used to record your findings. Is there a way to get more?
not sure, but with any game that comes with a pad of paper to record stuff, if you ever play the game enough to get close to using the whole thing up, simply take it down to a print shop and laminate a few pages, and then you'll never worried about it ever again :)
rahdo Thanks for the reply. I didn’t think about that. I’ll definitely do that
The program isn't comparable to an Atari 2600 because it is software that runs on an OS. That OS might not and probably will not be available in the future forever. The program might still run but sonner or later it won't. The publisher can make sure that it'll work by patching it or releasing newer versions (which already makes it bothersome for me) but even they won't be around forever. I'm not even looking to far into the future. There are enough video games that don't run properly on current systems anymore.
Also, Technology tends to break or be buggy, probably even more so when you use your phone for more than just running board game apps on it. Board games last way longer. Even if something breaks, the color fades out or whatever the game is mostly still functional and easy to repair. You're always provoking more defects when making yourself dependent on technology than when you're not. Everyone knows that from day to day life.
I'm not holding any grudges against the makers of Alchemists. As far as i can see the digital component seems to be well integrated. What i am afraid of is that this will become THE THING and everyone will want to include digital components, whether it's necessary or not. I think a good deal of scepticism is just reasonable. Hyping ANYTHING is never a good idea.
Gnarrkhaz why won't it be availalbe in the future? buy a cheap iphone 3 on ebay right now for $25... install the app... put the phone and power cord in the box along with the rest of the game... you'll be able to play the game forever (or at least, until we no longer support plugging electronic devices into wall sockets)
***** That just made the game $25 more expensive.
I appreciate your passion, but I think you're being idealistic. I own lots of games that are 20+ years old: Catan, Magic Realm, Manhattan, El Grande. Now imagine if any of those games had software for them. How would I play them? Do you seriously think people would play these games if they had to pull out their old computers every time they come to the table? Would it be reasonable to ask them to save their 1982 Commodore to play Broadsides and Boarding Parties, their 1990 Macintosh LC to play Hoity Toity, and their 1999 iMac to play Tigris and Euphrates?
What about resale value? Twelve years from now, who would buy a game if there was no way to play it (unless they had a program already installed on their phone)? You seriously don't think there will be ANY problems with this down the line?
Tierbandiger It's tough to find an accurate comparison because this is cutting edge stuff. Between America and Europe, smartphone adoption is closing in on 70%. That number is only going to increase, going forward. Even if this game falls out of production, it costs nothing for CGE to leave the app hanging on the app store and Google Play. If the app works now, it works forever. I can't think of any OS upgrade that completely broke an app. It may be less efficient, it may not be optimized, but they don't just _break_. So whenever we're only iOS 16 or Android ZigZag, that ages old Alchemists app can still chug through its calculations for your ancient, battered Alchemists game from way back in 2014.
It wouldn't be reasonable to ask someone to pull out their Commodore to play Broadsides because the Commodore had no notion of cloud storage or online software stores. The point today is that this app is free and it will always be free, and barring the Apocalypse, will always be available as bits and bytes to transfer from some server in Nevada to whatever future device you have in your household.
EDIT: Also, if you didn't want the game to be $25 more expensive, there's always the "gamemaster" inclusion, but as ***** has said, that would be insanely boring. I suppose one solution would be to fill the back of the manual with charts, but there's so much secret information to be divulged, I'm not sure how reliable that would be to discourage cheating. In any case, games have used charts for years and that would be hardly pushing the boundaries of gaming forward, so I am really excited for this one.
***** the real question here is : does it work without an internet connection ?
I guess the "team" part (where you enter the game code to connect different apps) needs the connection, but does the app itself need it ?
Sébastien Dougnac I think, and this is all conjecture based on one app review in the play store that criticizes the idea that theoretically, one could deduce everything from the code, that the app has its own chart built in and each code is assigned to a different game state. So no Internet necessary, you just punch in which game you're playing on all the phones. I can't imagine it affects replay value unless you actively try to memorize the codes, because there must be thousands of combos of elements to make up different games.
with apps, what im worried about is that if the company goes under and the app is lost, the game is useless. if you didn't have it already on your phone you cant get the app. it may not happen. its just a concern of will the app allways be there for download. say google updates the play store and for some reason the app is not compatible to download, if there is no one to update the app, then its lost. I would say its a legit worry, even though the chances are slim.
atari went out of business decades ago, and yet I can still play the beloved console games of my childhood today!
www.free80sarcade.com/2600_Adventure.php
the realities of digital archiving means that apps never go away. in 30 years, they won't run on your iphone 18, but they will run via android emulators on whatever supercomputer platform we have at the time. :)
That's not how offline apps work especially free ones; nobody needs to "update" it just like nobody goes in and updates a copy of Myst from 1997. The game has been made you just need to play.
I dont like idea to use apps for boardgames. But i tink its a great idea for solo-gamers
I had an initial knee-jerk reaction to the soft app requirement, but it's really just a level up in sophistication over those "real-time" games that included a CD in the box (Space Alert and Escape, for example). We praised those games for being innovative.
Additionally, this app would be so trivial to program that any well-heeled software developer could put out their own version of it, should "digital rot" be an actual problem. I'm not concerned. I'd worry about future app compat issues in the future, not right now.
CDs are a good example of fantastic game innovation, but a technical dependency that makes playing the game a pain. We had to dig around the house for an old boom box for 20 mins last time we cracked Escape!
Jason Kossowan Yeah, it's kind of ironic how much easier those kinds of games are to play, once you download the MP3 tracks to your device ;)
'Don't get a smartphone, get an android' lol
the lines bother me aswel, counters can be fixed but this maybe won't be fixed :( I'm gonne play it this evening with my family so i'm curious how they will like it. Cause it's a bit on the heavyer side. But hey i won this game on a BGG contest so no money wasted if they won't like the game.
I played this at Essen and we liked it a lot. I thought luck was a big factor, but I liked it enough to play again. The app is very nice, but gave a few "errors". Two times (on 30 minutes, we stopped after 30 min') we got a result different then the cards on our screen. So, if I wanted I could have cheated, and would have got more information. That and the production errors (chips didn't fit very well, so they dropped out, + and - on both sides - I HATED THIS - so when they dropped, I didn't know what value they had!) made me think twice. I didn't buy it (euhm, it was also sold out at that moment, lol)
The problem with the app recognizing wrong cards can be solved I think (they should have put small icons that are easy to recognize in my opinion) One time the error I got was because my card was upside down, so I got a wrong result. The app should say: card is upside down. (should be possible, there are 3 circles on the corners of the cards, maybe for solving this problem in the near future)
The cardboard problems will be fixed in next prints.
So, a must buy for our boardgame-club in the future!
Cards upside down is not a problem, the app recognises them just fine. Sorry to hear about your card recognition issues. I demoed the game all four days, many many times. There was only once where it scanned the wrong card, but you should always check it before pressing confirm.
We also had no counters falling out of the grid at all, maybe we were just putting them in more.
And the production issues are not only being fixed in the next printing, but CGE are sending out fixed components in the next few weeks to everyone who bought it.
Gaming Rules! Indeed, you have to press confirm, so it's not a big deal. Two times we got the curly green thingy but another card (once upside down) was scanned. So, is it a problem? Not really, but it's a shame.
Pieter Van Conkelberge but would this be different in an analog game with hidden information. Players can lie and cheat there too. As well in analog games you could look up the wrong information in the book and report back bad info.
These aren't issues that only exist with games that have digital additions. But I can certainly understand if these things turn someone off.
Yeah, if you're going to cheat, you can just cheat in other ways. The presence of an app doesn't make cheating any more likely to happen than in other games.
App still working...
lol I loved that comment, "They'll probably be on a cell phone." hahaha SO TRUE.
this was brilliant
how does Jen rates this game today? you said she really loved it back then, but it was after you published her top 10 :)
+Mssquishi1 we havent' played it for quite awhile. i rarely get to revisit games (even ones that we love) because i'm always having to move on to new games to cover
you have the greatest job ever ^_^
A flaw about your Atari argument, is that those old computers are actually more durable than anything you can buy today. Back then it was built to last, while today it's built to last until the next model comes out.
Y'know, today it occurred to me that the people concerned about some sort of obsolescence because of the app most likely have it exactly 180 degrees wrong.
In addition to the fact that including the "GM" option as physical components gives future programmers all the information they need to write a new app for any device (which others have already pointed out)... well... anything digital can be copied over and over and over again without ANY degradation in quality and is preserved PERFECTLY.
Which is why it's far more likely that - oh, say a thousand years from now - some guy will run across the app or the rules PDF (or even this video!) in an archive somewhere and wish that somebody had bothered to make digital versions of the PHYSICAL components, rather than the other way around.
What if I don't have an atari and I need one to play that game from 30yr ago?
What if your atari drops on the ground and breaks, as fagile as smartphones are today?
I don't believe in putting a 30$ phone in a box just for that reason.
In 10 years phones nor apps will desintegrate that is correct.
But the requirements for app devs might be different and the current app will need a rework.
In 30 years from now I doubt there will be such an app in the appstore, unless a programmer playing the game keeps developing it.
+Frankie Friet answer to all your concerns: do a google search for atari emulator. problem solved :)
"Fighting Mad Max style for resources." Hahahahahah :)
So from a marketing perspective, CGE wins. Obviously there's enough buzz re: digital that it's creating exposure. :)
Yeah, I'm not as excited about the app stuff. Not that I'm opposed to it on principle, but I just think it's going to be a fad, not the future. When designers start developing for smartphones just because they're the "in thing" (as opposed to because the game requires some sort of operation/calculation that the players cannot do by themselves), they will have moved beyond innovation and into mere marketing.
We'll see how they sell. Lucky for me, I'll save lots of money by ignoring these games (and I need any excuse I can find to prevent myself from being interested in a new game these days)
I'm sorry but this is still an issue. I don't believe in the Apocalypse, I don't believe in the power cut crap, I just believe it's the beginning of the end for boardgames as we know them. As everything invasive, it starts small. Very small. Almost nothing. Then it becomes the rule and it spreads. Remember that it started with iPhones friendly games which didn't need iphones to be played. Iphones just enhanced the games. Now it's more than that already: this is the first game almost unplayable without a smartphone. What's next? As I said, it started small and it's already a little bit bigger and invasive, isn't it? I'm a web and app developper and I just don't want to HAVE TO use a website, a smartphone or anything virtual when I play boardgames. By letting this happen now at a small scale we allow this to a larger scale later. And when we wake up, it'll be way too late. There are plenty of boardgames that appeared this year which make somehow use of a smartphone. There are 4 that I know of, only for the year 2014 (ZNA, World of Yo-ho, Alchemists, Z first impact) and I know there are others! So no, it's not an isolated case, it's a strong tendency. And when Rahdo says that it enhances the game and that that alone is a valid argument, I say that an engine on a bike would probably enhance it also. A new pair of fake boobs may improve your wife (nothing personal) and a cyborg brain may improve you to that point that you will not even know if you're still a human or not. But you'll be enhanced alright! It's just that some of us don't want the games to be enhanced in such way that they become hybrids. They become dependent. There is still plenty to do without binary code. We want fun as when we are kids. Something not virtual at all. Of course you can buy a cheap smartphone for your game but is this debunked? No sir, it's just naïve. It'll work for alchemists but nor for what's coming next. In the years to come, when the cloud is the new reference and apps are dematerialized, how would you even start your app that is not on the cloud anymore? This is the known and planned close future, not even some vague prophecy, and all the "put a smartphone inside your box" is already futile because it's not about the gear you have at home at all but well about the service you can access online. It will not depend on you anymore. It's already the case for some apps.There are so many scenarios that are possible that Rahdo's can't debunk them all. That's the definition of the future: you never know. And as the economy is based on the planned obsolescence, your are almost sure that you won't be able to use this app in less than 10 years because it's precisely the goal of the economic game: obsolescence. This is exactly why Adobe software (photoshop) and Microsoft Office are now exclusively online and that the cloud has been put in place. Shit might happen and our last concern would be Alchemists and that's true. But if we allow that for this game we allow that for any game that is still to be created. Eventually we don't bet on a single game, we bet on our entire hobby. You don't need any apocalypse to make it happen. All you need is modern economy. And when Rahdo says that we can bring new arguments he will debunk them, I answer that there is nothing to debunk when it comes to like or not like something. Sure we can just DON'T BUY what we don't like and move on but it's not relevant because the offer will increase and eventually, step by step, we are out of the hobby, pure and simple. The thing I like about boardgames is that they were not concerned by that enhancement race so far. It was a safe haven to me. Now it's another product on which we can apply the damned planned obsolescence. This ruins the hobby for a lot of people like me and I'm pissed. Debunk that!
PS: someone has to come from the future (Terminator or 12 monkey's style) and manage to eradicate this game. It's the first of its kind and it will lead us to our doom ;-)
lexgotham as a web developer, I imagine you're well aware of the hugely increased costs (both for development and support) that come from adding digital content to a boardgame. That alone is going to prevent the "doomsday scenario" of 100% digital apps required for all boardgames. It's simply not economically viable, when profit margins are already razor thin, for the vast majority of boardgame developers to add digital content, whether they want to or not.Nevermind the fact that digital chess has been available for decades now, and yet, the vast majority of people who play chess do it analog. Where's the "chess doomsday scenario" where all analog chess is replaced with digital? It hasn't happen yet after 30+ years, so maybe - just maybe - it won't happen for boardgames either.
And even if somehow you're right and within 10 years, all new boardgames will require apps (which again, is simply not going to happen because it's not economically possible, and history has proven that it won't happen, but let's go with the assumption anyway) fortunately you'll have thousands of games available to you already that don't require apps and have no expiration date, so again, you've really got nothing to worry about. So, since you refuse to "enhance" your gameplay for whatever reason, you won't be able to play Puerto Rico 2020, but who cares? You can still play Puerto Rico :)
Your argument also seem to be "hey, we've gotten along just great without digital enhancement for quite awhile now, so clearly it's not needed", and by that argument, modern boardgames don't need to exist at all because we've gotten by just fine for millennia with Chess, Backgammon, and simple dice & card games. So who needs new fancy enhancements like rondels, deckbuilding, etc. etc.
You arguments about apps not being on the cloud anymore in the future is again not valid (IMO), because I am capable right now of making my own personal backups of data. Yes, that data can be lost over time, but so can my boardgames through mold, fire, neglect, etc. Nothing lasts forever, whether analog or digital. So again, not sure why you're worried about technology decaying, but not physical goods decaying, when one is no more or less likely than the other to suffer the same fate :)
You can choose to positive and optimistic about the future, or negative and pessimistic - it's entirely your call. However, the evolution of human society over the last 10,000 years has repeatedly proven over and over again that as time moves forward, things get better, not worse. Assuming as you do that they'll get worse instead of better is debunked by the whole of human history, but you're well within your rights to assume that's how things will go down.
Myself, I'm happy and exicted that boardgame design continues to evolve and enhance itself. Do not fear the future, it's full of awesome! :)
Thank you for your answer Rahdo. For the data backup part: it's no about the data but well about the software that allows you to read the data. The data without the software is just garbage. Two days ago I bought the last version of Pro Tools and wanted to open a 2 years old file with it. Guess what? And I'm not even considering that your data will eventually be stored somewhere else (hard drives are so 2010...), which will need a subscription to access it (iCloud is not the future, it's very present tense and it's just the beginning). I'm curious to know if you'll keep on subscribing for 10 years to a cloud storage service only to access the old software/data needed to play your old-fashioned-but-once-enhanced boardgames. If not, the counter is already ticking.
For the cost part: Kickstarter is a perfect example where boardgames like ZNA are extensively enhanced with a smartphone or pad and the targeted public is ok to pay more than 150 dollars for a game. After all the enhancement is worth the price isn't it? It's a niche public for now but If they rare willing to pay such an amount, eventually everyone will have to. It will become a standard price that will be justified by the app development costs. To day it is all about goodies and tomorrow, these goodies will naturally be replaced by software features. Ok with it or not, you comply or you leave and find some other hobby.
For the Puerto Rico 2020 part (rather Puerto Rico v20.20): yes you are right and that's the problem. I will be forced to play Puerto Rico 2000 for ever, what a relief! The future has not even started yet that you are already announcing my biggest fear as if it were taken for granted: I must comply or I'm left behind and you seem ok with it already.
For the decay part: A board game will naturally decay but it decays very slowly and can last 20 years easily. Computer hardware decay much slower physically, but they become obsolete in no time. You can still play "Cosmic Encounter first edition" today, I'm not sure you'll be able to have use of any computer of that era. Imagine that the game would have been made to work with one of those and that you had to keep one with the box to play this game nowadays. And what about the games that needed a VHS in the 80's? The reason we don't care is that these games were awful but what if one of these wasn't?
Anyway, I heard your point and you heard mine. Your virtual chess is a valid point but to a certain extend: It was a very isolated case and if we don't play with it nowadays it is precisely because it was an enhancement of that time that is completely ridiculous today. The problem now is that it will not be an isolated case. Too many games this year using smartphones and they keep it coming. As I said, it's all about knowing the future and nobody does. I don't know the future either but I can see the past and I'm pretty sure that a debunker from the 80's would have been wrong on any prediction regarding the present days. You can say the same for me and I admit it but a constant seems to give me some credit: the way the economy is evolving. Before, any of your tech gear would have lasted 20 years, now, you buy the same thing to fulfill the same need for 2 years max, over and over and the previous version of it is just garbage. Worse: Lately you don't even buy things, you rent them for a period of time and they just vanish in thin air if you don't pay your monthly subscription. It's true for your files, videos, book, comics and photographs and it's already true for some of your app's. You don't possess things anymore, you have access to them temporarily at your provider's discretion. This can't be applied to physical things and that's why physical things are merged with virtual app's nowadays. Because this way, even things you buy are for rental somehow. You don't throw them when they don't work anymore, you throw them when there is no service provided for them to work anymore. And why the hell everything has to be dematerialized to a certain extend anyway? Why do we have to virtualize everything and call it an enhancement? Because of that. It's a win-lose situation in disguise but it's shiny, tasty and convenient…for a while. That's why we comply. But ultimately, we don't get anything, we give things up. I know we will not agree on this and it would be ok if wasn't about to lose something just because you want more of something that still has plenty to offer. They did it with movies and books and now they do it with boardgames. What's next? I love computers and software but they just don't have to be applied to everything. When they do, they have to deal with Moore's law. Some things must remain 100% IRL. At least, let's agree that enhancements are alright but they should stay optional. This, I'm completely ok with. This way you keep your enhancements and we keep our stand alone game for decades. And even if you don't agree with this, let's at least agree that you might be right but I might too. The point is that it goes way beyond the upcoming apocalypse and a Mad Max scenario and that there is room for a serious debate here. It's not about Alchemists alone, it's bigger than that. Thank you for your attention and keep on doing what you do, it's brilliant and i'm a huge fan (and sorry for my poor english, I'm from Europe as you might have guessed). Regards.
lexgotham your english is fantastic, btw! i had no idea you weren't a native speaker! :) and you're right, we can agree to disagree... i was ready to write up a whole list of counters to your points (ZNA project failed because software dev cost was too high, i can still play VCR games today via ebay, emulators will always exist to ensure old software is runnable, etc.) but we can agree to disagree :)
***** Greetings from Brussels ;-)
lexgotham
Yeah, I'm a bit late to this discussion, so sorry for that. I haven't played the game yet, but I think that thanks to the brilliant runthrough I can judge the discussed issues well enough.
First of all I really like the approach on the scientific method by this game and definitely consider buying it solely for this mechanic, but I also don't like SOME aspects of the smartphone integration.
My biggest problem with this is that I think it might work as a trigger to increase the number of smartphones on the table at gaming nights even more (if that is even possible) or at least earlier. At our usual gaming nights (which are also partial class reunions) we usually are roughly 7-10 people. The longest we ever stay smartphone-free is till our host orders the pizza. After that you can set your timers. Within 30 minutes everyone (except me) will have their smartphones in front of them on the table and they won't vanish for the rest of the night. And I think games like these will just offer more chances and reasons to justify getting your smartphone out on the table. In my gaming group it's already too late, but if your groups have stayed smartphone-free up until now, congratulations and I can understand your feelings of uneasiness towards this game. The use of smartphones at any time has gotten second nature so fast that people don't even think about it anymore. This constant interruption and the visual demonstration of how low you value your conversation partners has somehow managed to go from unacceptable and impolite to everpresent. And if you see boardgames as a way to escape reality (the number of people with this view should be rather high for boardgames) then this evolution is not to be taken lightly. But the bigger impact is still your gaming group. You are ALREADY forced to find like-minded people to sustain this refuge.
The second point to discuss is the possibility to play this and other games in the future if the necessary software, operating system or hardware vanishes or becomes unaccessible due to digital rights restrictions. For THIS game, the price to pay will be either to torture one of your friends, or to learn programming (always useful) and apply that skill for less than one hour (if you only care about the functionality and don't care about fancy graphics and image recognition), or to build a relatively intricate marble run that "computes" the lookup result for you, if you want to stay microelectronics-free. If you want to go for effectiveness, you should probably go for solution two, if you favor style, then the marble run it is.
For boardgames in general, there are two things I can imagine, that smartphones can assist with. The first one is basic computational power and the other one is managing hidden information. If a board game needs so much computational power, that you can't do the calculations in your head anymore it just should have become a computer game. If the game however contains hidden information that has to stay secret to ALL players as it is the case here, I think smartphones are a valueble tool (and nothing more) to enable those game systems. If none of these points can be applied, and this will concern the majority of future boardgames, then I highly doubt any designer would go to the lengths of develloping a dedicated app.
The last question is a matter of owning ALL rights to the things you have bought. This is a principle that is getting undermined constantly by new e-commerce models, and is well worth discussing, but if you care about that, there are better (and more urgent) places for that discussion than boardgames.
I hope this late comment has brought a new perspective on the discussion. Thanks for reading.
The game is not a deduction game at all unless you count cards and what other people did..
It's more of a luck menegement. There's a lot of luck involved in the deduction part as well..
Maybe it works differently on 4 players but it was quite weak for me. It's all 1:8 or 1:4 or 1:2 chance and if you got more info you can be sure. It all depends if you're lucky enough to get 3 different color potions quickly. My first game I got 43/50 points while learning the game.. I would get 48/50 if I risked placing 5 star paper while having 50% chance of correct thesis..
For such a long game it's not really exciting as it could/should be to me.
I don't know why everyone's complaining - it comes with an analogue version of the app anyway! If you're playing at say a hall with other board games being played near you or whatever, i'm sure someone else who is playing a different game wouldn't mind refereeing your game while playing their own game - I wouldn't mind!
Besides. Game looks good. App or no app, the game looks good. Isn't that the point? Also, it costs like £25 / $30, have you never paid that much for a day out? That didn't last forever! It lasted a day! Who cares?! Just play!
What about the gateway argument? Lord knows I love alchemists. It's brilliant, it's beautiful and the app works wonderfully but it did pave the way for a potential disaster. Take the new mansions of madness. It's basically a video game. Sure you have physical components but so much of the game is played on the app it feels nothing like a real board game.
i think "potential disaster" is maybe a bit hyperbolic :)
Atari 2600!
I'll be honest, I stopped watching around the beginning of the discussion about the integration of digital into board games. I have no strong feelings about it one way or another... in fact, I sometimes even wonder why there aren't more purely digital implementations of board games akin to what Days of Wonder has done with Ticket and Memoir.
My question is simple. According to the review, this is a 2+ hr game. What effect does that have on your iPhone's battery life? i.e. Would you recommend that everybody should have their phones plugged in while you play?
chanm01 well, in those 2 hours, the phone is only used for maybe a total of 2 minutes per player, and the rest of the time it's left off, so it shouldn't be a problem :)
Thanks!
I will pass. My attention span isn't for $#|+, so I don't require jamming board games in the realm of techie dependency. It isn't clever at all; it is just forcing something along because the masses already have done it with their lives.
I am as free of a 'smart' phone as I am of the need for digital help at the game table.
Thanks for the runthrough as well as your insights, Richard, but I will resist this as long as I can.
This game design space really couldn't exist w/o the app.
This game looks pretty sucky in my opinion, and not just because of the smartphone gimmick. I don't think you are right that this is the future of the board game industry. I understand why you are biased that way, as a former video game guy.
It will probably go in and out of fashion,like a fad, like 3D does every now and again for movies...