What is the MIST FPGA computer?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ก.ค. 2024
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Being able to replicate hardware in an FPGA or alike is as important as dumping ROMs from a preservation viewpoint.
Absolutely. Projects like this are basically the equivalent of a 3D printer for CPUs. (Or any digital IC, really.)
Rikard Yes mist computer and hardware
for anyone wondering. FPGA stands for field programmable gate array Its basically a IC that you can configure the gates to replicate any discrete IC function within reason.
I work as a service tech on 4 axis flat bed CNC cutters and the heat of them uses the Altera cyclone and iirc the Altera Max as well. They are extremely powerful in what you can do with a FPGA.
I watched your video and put my Amiga for sale and ordered one today. The MIST solves all my issues with the Amiga, I get a simple power supply that is not a giant brick, I get VGA output, I get small form-factor and I get a new perfect functioning mouse.
Awesome keep up the great videos.
This little computer is magic. Amazing that many years later it is still available for purchase and even went through some revision changes since your video. It was actually expensive in 2015 (although as you said a good value) but now in 2022 it is about the same price and it is a really GREAT value now ;) Good luck getting any Amiga or FPGA device that is ready to go like this in 2022 for 200 Euro (or about $230 USD).
I have two of these now because I believe this really is something special. A unique single board design and it works so well with so many cores now.
thank you very much for this review
+ajvan666 Thank you, means a lot :)
Great explanation of computers and fpga....made understanding a whole lot easier....Thank for the explanation..:-)
Excellent explanations!
+MasterOfGizmo Thank you :)
thanks for the video! would be cool to do a side by side comparison of fs-uae and mist
+DosBoxTurbo You are the second person asking for this, that's a good enough reason for me to do it :) But I'll do you one better, I'm planning on doing a 3 way side-by-side video comparing Mist vs Emulator vs real Amiga. Just waiting for another TH-camr to reply to my request if I can use his video footage. He has some nice S-Video captures of a real A500.
This is a good idea, as long as it simplifys the process compared to software emulation on a PC.
Hi @PhilsComputerLab, great video and explanation, I cant wait until they are back in stock so I can buy one, thank you. - Anthony Matabaro.
This 2 button problem was one of my exam questions in digital technology class to solve it with sequential networks
Exciting. I'll get one once they start to support arcade gaming systems/NeoGeo and have an alternative RGB scart or Component/HDMI output since i only play games on my television.
OK Phil I already loved this channel, but you just gained 5x more respect after seeing you are using a machine that runs non-x86 software :)
Could you please make a video of the Mistica FPGA16?
Great little machine, MIDI ports are a big plus in my opinion (especially for the ST core).
+foo80 I have MIDI modules, so I will check it out. But I'm not familiar with the ST at all, so I'll have to do some reading / research :)
I'll Have to Look at the list
Will you please make a separate video on how to load a NES core on the Mist?
Unlikely, I'm not into consoles much...
I must say, as a hardware geek it is very cool to be able to recreate the hardware of old consoles and computers through digital synthesis of FPGA's, but we don't have FPGA's large enough to simulate anything more than like you said, an Amiga. Software emulation is way ahead here, where a raspberry pi 2 can fairly easily emulate through software any console up to the nintendo 64
Marcus Grant actually there are, but those aren't lower than 200-300$ And mostly for the business side
Why can't they just put more than one into it, and chain them together as needed? That would probably be just as expensive though...
I wonder if this unit can replicate the Sharp X68000 or the Fujitsu FM Towns? The NEC PC-9801 would be another awesome computer to replicate. I find the Japanese computers very interesting especially ones that also have MIDI support like the X68000.
Yes is okay!
Is it it possible to put an FPGA with integrated nonvolatile storage on ordinary motherboard (slots for usual components such as hdd, gpu, WiFi card) if the cpu socket is compatible with it?
I like this.
Frankly, I think the price is a steal for what you are basically getting. This is far superior to these consoles that exist now days to emulate 5 or more consoles. The only advantage those have, is using the original cartridge. Since game roms are free, and quite easy to find, this Mist system, running them in hardware mode, makes this just the best vintage console gaming system made so far. Quite an interesting item, and I will definitely look forward to your opinions of this computer.
+WaybackTECH Yea, I'm still playing around with it, but I'm very impressed so far. At first I thought it was just for the Amiga and Atari ST, I didn't know about all these other cores. Some are quite exotic for me, so it will be an interesting ride :)
+philscomputerlab For console emulation, I've already built a system running Lakka.tv, which works pretty nicely, and it emulates every console you could imagine. It's got a user interface based on the PS3/PSP XMB, which means you can skip having stuff like keyboard and mouse. So for me, the MIST only holds any interest as an Amiga replacement. How well does it perform for that?
+WaybackTECH Let's not forget you have also get an FPGA that you can program to do whatever you want (i assume). Running games is really cool, but the limitless creative possibilities are really exciting. It reminds me of getting an Acorn Electron to play games when I was a kid, but ending up more fascinated by learning to program it.
hi WaybackTECH are you on retro machine??
WaybackTECH cool power point
Can you program a fpga from tape with error correction? Does this fpga use error correction? And can you anticipate error correction with a cassette recording?
Could this thing replicate older CPU architectures like a 486 or 68k? Possibly even something newer like ARM? If so I can see how this device has a lot of potential. Sounds pretty awesome.
+Syphist Prime I don't see why not!
PhilsComputerLab that's cool, I hope someone is able to program the cores to some degree so we could put things like Mac OS 3 on there.
Replicating M68K.. isn't that exactly what it is doing?
Syphist Prime yes, arm cores are available ...it can replicate any chip in theory..... Naturally older CPUs are better for it.
Old school demosceners whould love 486 implementation with gravis ultrasound.
Actually I would love to buy this pc, so there for I can built an windows 98 gaming pc but the price is to expensive tho, does 3dfx voodoo 2 or 3 does support to this mini pc 🙂?
Thumbs up for Turrican II -soundtrack in the beginning.
In the case of the button demonstration, I'd just use multi-threading. Run each if statement in its own loop on its own thread. Am I missing something? Why wouldn't you just do that?
Replicating the chips or hardware on an FPGA is done in two separate ways. One way is to compare inputs and outputs of the chip and make a series of 'if this input, then do this output' kind of arguments, without even knowing anything about the inner circuits of the chip, to describe how the emulated chip will behave. The other method is after examining the circuits of the chip on the silicon die (reverse-engineering) or after examining schematics of the IC, you either literally draw the schematics on the FPGA development system or transfer each section of the schematic to the development system in logic components (think of it as transferring transistor by transistor). However, even then both methods do not create an exact one-to-one clone of the chip. You have to remember that essentially all digital chips are analog devices creating analog pulse waves at different times interpreted as so-called digital signals. Between the original and the FPGA chips, the timings, the levels are all different. This gets very complicated when you have many chips in a retro computer all working together at unique timings and having interesting exploited quirks and even unknown things.
With an FGPA, you want to have an emulated (or let's say cloned) computer with working original hardware interfaces such as expansion boards, cartridge connectors, drive interfaces, and more so that you can attach all the original devices made for it such as old CRT monitors or weird uncommon devices. If you're using the FPGA to emulate a vintage computer to only play games then only behavioral modeling of the chips of the computer is done and the original interfaces are omitted and you don't get an exact clone of the computer since even your chip designs are not exact and only some of the behaviors are emulated. Let's not kid ourselves, this is not replication and you should better use emulation on your computer.
For seriously replicating a vintage computer on FPGA you need to replicate all uncommon quirks and features including all hardware interfaces. If I can not attach my old cartridge or vintage expansion board or old disk drive then it is not very different from a software emulation.
Good music. Turrican II.
is there a core for the Atari 8bit PCs? I'm surprised you can emulate the Amiga, with it's multiple processors. If this can be done on this hardware you should be able to do the Atari 8bit (800, 800XL, 130XE) and it's multiple processors which was the predecessor of the Amiga.
+HUGSaLOT Valkyrie Yes it does, here is a list of more cores to check out: github.com/mist-devel/mist-binaries/tree/master/cores
very interesting device one Q
can I used as game arcade device ?
Can you tell me where I can purchase a cable that will work with sync on green? I already purchased a scart cable from Lortharek. However, I more interested in running this in sync on green in order to do both 240P/480I and 480P. I have a monitor that excepts sync on green. I read that a special cable has to be made. Apparently made the same as component. I don't understand why sync on green cannot just be activated through software in the settings and just use a scart cable. Normally when I want to use sync on green I just use a scart cable and turn off external sync through my monitor settings. Anyways I am very interested in the process of obtaining sync on green. I am working on a video about the wonderful MIST FPGA. Sync on Green is something that a lot of people may want to use. Especially if they are using Sony PVMs, BVMs,..etc.
No idea, I use a PC CRT Monitor.
Better than the NT Mini?
FPGA is great, but if all you're concerned with is the final output (does it look and play like the real thing?), then a Raspberry Pi 3 with EmulationStation is really hard to beat, especially for the price (Fully loaded RP3 with case, power supply and mini-heatsinks is less than $50US. Software is free.) Still, if I had the money to burn, this is the way I'd go.
One downside to this arrangement is that there is no HD output. I'm not sure if VGA can handle the higher A1200 gfx modes like 1536 x 576 (interlaced of course!)
Raspberry has a lot of lag!
When he's saying that "you upload a file to the fpga", it doesn't mean that you write a file in C++ and copy it over.
It's a file in a language that is for FPGAs and what it is, it's a schematic of a chip in a way. It describes how the chip functions, how the circuits inside the chip are laid out. When the FPGA turns on, it reads the file from storage, and then it programs the fuses/gates in it to function how the file describes. In a traditional program the cpu goes and reads the file from top to bottom and then on again. That's a single thread. For things to be in parallel you have to make multiple threads that do different things.
In an FPGA you can have a number of gates doing one thing interdependently. Dedicate part of the FPGA to calculate FPU things, another part for input, and those will do their part on their own as if they were actual chips on a PCB. So an FPGA file is more like a house blueprint than a list of commands.
Why they can't put my 10 years old AMD Phenom ii x4 955 inside this FPGA? to small or to expensive?
Accuracy is better somewhat, it technically clones the machine hardware system.
Good video. :) I wonder if one of these would be powerful enough to replicate an SNES with expansion chips.
5 years later, yes!
Is that Raspberry Pi Combined with the single computer?
FPGA is effectively a blank chip you can write circuitry into, similar to CD-RW as to CD-ROM.
You should do a review of the panda board
Michael Street please the best internet connection
Phil, just wondering, what do you do for a living?
Do computer stuff lol
I can vouch for FPGA being far, far supreme VS emulators. Back in early 90s I had C64 and Amiga 500. Stopped using the Amiga around 1995. Started using Amiga emulator around 2004. At that time I didn't notice anything wrong with input lag or no smooth scrolling probably because I hadn't used the real hardware in 9 years. Started using real Amigas and C64s again around 2014. When I then tried emulators after I had got used to the real hardware I could feel huge input lag and not smooth scrolling on PAL games. It was so bad that I found certain games unplayable with emulators. Then a few years ago I bought two Turbo Chameleon 64 V2s. Which is an FPGA cartridge for C64 that can also use other cores like minimig and various others. And can also be used in standalone mode. Recently I have been experimenting escpecially with the minimig core. I honestly cannot feel any difference between this and my real Amigas. FPGA is true hardware implementation. And if done properly it's like using the real deal. I was really impressed. And people claiming they have a software emulators with no input lag have probably not tried the real hardware or FPGA implementation recently. There is a big difference. Of course it will depend on the emulator and what type og games, but in general any software emulator will have noticeable input lag.
i have a question, does it support the Apple I,II,IIE,IIc,III,IIGS,Lisa and 68k Macintosh Systems?
+Gamer1990 Here is a list of cores: github.com/mist-devel/mist-binaries/tree/master/cores
Will you do comparison videos between mist and emulators in games?
+Mateusz Kwietowicz Hmm not sure. I was more into comparing real hardware with Mist, but I don't have any real hardware LOL
+philscomputerlab I think for most people looking at this the question will be, is this worth over using a regular software emulator? people who want the real hardware I think will still want it, it's not just about the output but the entire experience of having the original device, still, I would be curious to compare one thing, input lag (from the player input until the end result on the screen) from this, to original hardware and software emulator, but there are so many variables (like your OS, video driver and so on) specially with the software emulation that is probably not a good idea.
Yes, lots of variables. I guess I make recordings of the Mist, and then people can compare it with their emulated setup.
You can buy it at our webshop too :
amiga.amedia-computer.com/index.php/catalogue/infos/3/10/LOT_MIST_MIDI
English flag on the top right corner of the site ;)
I can honestly say that circuit board look better than the case. If I had one I would make an acrylic case for it.
+ZanderLexx I agree :) When I opened it I was thinking damn, that looks nice, this should be showcased :D
Good vid.
The FPGA is still only a best guess of how the original chips worked, right? It's producing what looks like the same end result to our eyes, but it's not working the same internally, and may still produce different results in ways nobody actually tested for yet. So it's still emulation of sorts, but hardware based instead of software. Is that correct?
And if so, will we ever be able to analyse the original chips in these computers/consoles and produce real replicas of them, or is that an impossibility without knowledge from elsewhere about how they were designed? (I know back in the early 90s there were copies of the Famicom, but I don't know how that was acheived)
+googleboughtmee
It's basically emulation, in hardware, sort to speak.
+googleboughtmee It's not really a guess, the FPGA can configure it's actual hardware circuits to match schematics of the actual chips. So on the hardware level, the FPGA circuits are the same as whatever circuits were in a real chip. The differences would be more like someone doing hardware mods to an old console to hook up to modern displays & peripherals, and use modern storage media.
To the extent that the original ICs are known and understood, the emulation is more like a clone. The logic of the original IC can be duplicated down to whatever level of detail we have.
For example, with a CPU, you can usually find the instruction set and the number of clock cycles each instruction takes to perform. With this information, the CPU can be replicated pretty much identically. The application software (game) then executes the same instructions, which take the same amount of time, and produce the same end result.
Auxiliary hardware, like sound and graphics chips, are sometimes a little more complex, because the inner workings of some of those components aren't so well known. Through development kits and reverse-engineering you can see how they work, but maybe not down to the transistor level -- which is what you need for a perfect copy. Still, you can get close. Often close enough to be, for all intents and purposes, perfect.
I would love one of these but the price is a bit beyond me atm :( I was wondering how it compares to retropi?
+Ade Newman I'm not familiar with retropi I'm afraid. But do check out my most recent Mist video reviewing the C64 core. It will show the good and the bad.
+Cartay Mist sounds like a fpga softcore implementation; which replicates the chips in hardware via logic synthesis and other shenanigans. Retropi uses software emulation on the rpi. The advantage of hardware is that it tends to be snappier b/c it avoids the software emulation step; as well as less error-prone compared to software emulators (which can be very good, but are sometimes buggy or prone to crashing). On the other hand, raspberry pi's are very cheap.
Powerful ARM cpu's are dirt, dirt cheap and incredibly powerful compared to old processors. The point about "processing in parallel" is a bit misleading; modern processors comfortably run multiple threads which are more than powerful enough to emulate old-timey hardware with accurate-enough timings - most people aren't mlg pro's and are unlikely to notice the difference.
PhilsComputerLab Thanks, I'll check it out :)
I'm not a tecchie, so forgive this uneducated query. I am a keyboard player (musician) who has been using an Atari ST for Midi sequencing. My system has given up and I want to continue using my Atari ST software ("Gajits Breakthru'"). I have the original floppy discs, my Windows 10 PC has external USB floppy & CDROM drives if needed. Will The Mist FPGA allow me to continue to use my software on my PC system?
I believe so, it does have MIDI interaces.
@@philscomputerlab Thanks - from watching your video, it does look like it will work for me. Where is the best place to shop for one - I'm in the UK?
Isn't there a x86 core , I believe it was equevilent to a 386sx , might be worth installing that and compairing it to dosbox and finally a real 386
+HPZeta Can't find one at the moment, one i know is 80186, it's rather fast but real-mode only. Besides, it needs a rather big FPGA, i don't think you can wedge it into this.
+Siana Gearz I was mistaken , it is a 186 running at 33mhz opencores.org/project,next186_soc_pc
Siana Gearz well there are people having 10 core 32-bit processors
LoTR Builders well 386 is not just any 32bit core, it's a big and nasty one.
it's on the MISTer FPGA.
would a 8 core cpu with 16 threads not help this situation, obviously with a emulator that can use it?
Most emulators are programmed as single thread, so number of cores don't matter at all.
Very interesting video.
With Atari Core and usb/ethernet adaptor + Sting + Cab Web Browser => Mist on Internet :)
also you can do IRC !!!
Have you try ?
+Sheldon Retro Gaming 1 Still processing that sentence :P Don't have a USB ethernet adapter though.
Will these chips eventually replace current entire tower Gaming PCs with motherboards and graphics cards?
Three years late, but it looks like we're getting there. The ao486 core on the MiSTer emulates a full 486 rig with VGA, Soundblaster 16 and MIDI. That'd be a hell of a gaming PC back in its day, and a hell of a tower :)
@@storerestore wow
Is basically a hardware emulator of different machines
+Mastran77 Yes, hardware being the important difference. It's also super energy efficient, running off USB power.
= is not equal to == if you use something like if you need to use == because = means set.
Cool device. A bit too retro for me tho xD
Well the original Microsoft Box is the exact same as the SEGA CHIHIRO.
Unfortunately my use case for the Amiga requires the actual machine. They need to make a MiST with an AGA Amiga Video slot :P
Haha, yes the Mist has its limitations :)
i hope support for super nintendo / super famicom , Gameboy Color/Colour become a reality
This is amazing! If you could manage to have it output via HDMI they would really move.
Jake F hdmi is expensive to implement, and its also licenced and closed source.
Evert Guzman How is there N64 and NES HDMI kits then?
Are they cheap, and are they open source?
Yes
github.com/ikorb/gcvideo
knjn.com/ShopBoards_RS232_Parallel.html
When these get fast enough to do like a Pentium 2 computer with like a voodoo 3 gpu and being able to get on a LAN and use USB peripherals natively .... I will be able to relive my complete upbringing but this time pretending that I am a rich kid lol. Great to see this is happening.
Make this in PCI-e form so I can use my PC keyboard, mouse, joystick, speakers and monitor instead of a separate box + peripherals and I'll buy one.
+Ramon Zarat why do you think it has USB slots... he just preferes to use this controller... were does the sound come from? his PC speakers... were does the signal come from ? his PC monitor is the keyboard connected? yes...
Nice, can I simulate Play Station one with this PC?
+Abdelaziz Elrashed No, the hardware seems to be too weak for that. No emulation core for Playstation exists or has been announced either.
What about Nintendo 64
i dont wanna be a nitpicky , but, @ 2:30 , wouldnt optimization lead to first guys sackage... therefore... IF button 2 = pressed activate sheet press
Cauda Miller I think the guy still has to insert the metal but has to go back and press a button.
I do not want to be discouraging, but
Most of what you named is rather work of guessing
If everything would be so well known to make transistor to transistor replica, then (for example Commodore Amiga A4000) would not be expensive at all, as people would drop FPGA in place and reduce cost (from say £400) to pennies.
Have a look around TH-cam for MOS6502 reverse engineering and this is sufficient to answer every question behind "is this fully compatible with my console"
Unfortunately Motorola MC680xx is not yet on this stage of reverse engineering, I would purposely omit Amiga OCS ECS and AGA, which is most advanced at the time of 1992.
FPGA does not allow (and was never meant too) to make transistor level schematics, it works at a higher level of abstraction. But in reality it's not needed, chip designers don't really work on transistor level. Also whenever the fab goes to another level of miniaturization the transistor characteristics also change. Does it mean a 14nm Core i7 is somehow inferior to the same chip in 22nm?
It's replication rather than emulation. Replication because it REPLICATES the way older hardware works.
And FPGA is great for REPLICATING older hardware, so it's basically capable of DUPLICATING the hardware to a T so that running software is as accurate as possible.
That's basically it.. Emulation Vs Replication.
By the way.. where can i buy one of these in the US?
The Goof help you!
How is the original hardware replicated? Is it complex reverse engineering or is there another method?
In a PACMAN arcade game "clone" I played with on a Spartan 3E starter kit, all the main chips, CPU etc were all modelled in VHDL. All I had to do was load in copies of the original game ROM images. I was quite impressed when I first turned it on. It took me back to when I worked in an arcade as a student! (Now of course the Spartan 3E itself is near obsolete!)
Retro computers drove SDTV, which was the living-room TV standard. Today the living-room TV has HDMI input. Surely VGA is neither, and almost extinct.
the mist computer is sexy! the feel of the games are out of this world! emulation go home because this machine has taken over baby! the sound is perfect the mist is the greatest and ill never go back to playing emulation. that's how great the mist computer is. people reading this go buy one you will never regret it . also if you don't have a compatible vga monitor use a modern fat screen with hdmi and vga they work amazing.
So it's a FPGA dev-board in a case?
+Brandon Bahret That's like calling every Atmel AVR based product an arduino devboard. No. It's not the same.
Loving the sexy new logo Phil! That must have been created by some seriously good graphic artist beast of a man...or woman?! My guess is a woman. ;)
PierreVonStaines well yes
I have been tempted to get an Amiga 1200 for a few years now. Back in the days I had a pimped out A500 with a SCSI-II HDD, upgraded ram, extra floppy, monitor and everything else, but I always wanted the AGA graphics. When I eventually sold my A500, it was to upgrade to a 486 SX-33 PC, and I never did get an AGA based Amiga. But if the hardware emulation on this device is good enough, I might actually consider that instead, because a genuine A1200 with HDD, accelerator, scan-doubler or actual Amiga monitor and all the rest, is going to cost A LOT more than the MIST FPGA computer. The question is simply: How accurate is the hardware emulation. Will it run complex software as well as games? Will it allow the use of all the sound features the Amiga had, for things such as Octamed and similar? Oh well, I guess I'll just have to do some research.
+InterruptRequest Make a list of "tough" things to test. For A1200, as well as A500 please. I could do lots of little videos showcasing some demos or games/
+philscomputerlab Basically things utilizing the sound chip and possibly the graphics chips more extensively than what the majority of games do. It's been years since I gave up on emulators. Programs such as the already mentioned Octamed (tracker program), Lightwave (I remember emulators struggling with that) and such. It's been literally 2 decades since I had an Amiga, and I realized only when it was getting outdated, that I'd only scratched the surface of what it could do. When I'd already swapped platforms to DOS, I realized that I shouldn't have gotten rid of my A500, but I was a teenager and couldn't afford to have two systems, so it was a choice really. These days I would like to be able to go back and re-explore the Amiga, and perhaps get into Amos (I'd only just started playing around with that) with new eyes, as I now have more experience and knowledge. Anyway. I guess what I'm basically saying is... If the MIST is "just like having a real Amiga", then it would be a great option. If it's like having a "almost Amiga"... Then I'm not so sure.
+InterruptRequest Hi!
I guess at some point I will need to give a firm conclusion of what I think. But in the meantime, to answer your question: No, the Mist is unfortunately not just like having a real Amiga. There are compatibility issues and I believe the reason for this is that there are not very many FPGA programmers, but a lot more software programmers.
Have you tried the FS-UAE emulator?
+philscomputerlab I've been reading up on MIST and its equivalents over the last couple of days. They (the MiniMIG devs) point out that parts of the Amiga chipset(s) lack documentation, so it would require reverse engineering simply to be able to recreate it in the FPGA. This pretty much means that we will most likely never see a "perfect" reproduction of the Amiga on FPGA. That, in addition to your last answer pretty much answers this whole issue for me. If I'm going to get an Amiga for that retro experience, I'm going to get a genuine Amiga. It's the only thing that gives the full Amiga experience. Just like for me, the only thing that gives me that proper 486 experience is a real 486. I'm not really into the "time machine" concept. It's very convenient of course, but it just doesn't "do it" for me :) Thanks for posting your opinions on the MIST though. And keep making videos :)
+InterruptRequest Fair enough :)
Annoying that there is no documentation.
Agree to disagree on DOS PC time machines though. A Pentium with caches disabled, side by side with a 386, you will NOT be able to tell the difference :)
So the hardware is re-writable, or is it a one time thing????
It is re-writable of course! As many times as you like :) You can just use a bunch of SD cards with different cores on it, or have several cores on one SD card that you switch through the menu.
This is VERY new to me...Im from the old school...tube radios, analog oscilloscopes, that sore of thing...
Kennynva T.
FPGA with machine learning will bring raise to true artificial intelligence that will be the beginning of Skynet 😵
I'm in North America. Where can I purchase this? All I see is Europe!
Yea, got to buy it from Europe.
+PhilsComputerLab
Thanks!
Would be nice if it had RGB Scart output :(
It does for the Amiga at least. Requires editing the config file though.
+PhilsComputerLab so with a custom cable can I play on a TV?
Yes. There should be more information on the Mist wiki page.
intereting and greate video:D (ps i dont know how to fix the responding to my comment)
+StigDesign1 Well I can respond fine to this one :) And thank you!
philscomputerlab nice. np i love your new videos you are posting lots of good retro stuff that mist whas interesting& great presentation of how fpga work`s :D
Also youn can find Mist complete bundle at Amedia-Computer: amiga.amedia-computer.com/index.php/catalogue/infos/3/9/ACF_MISTMIDIDB9#
+Sheldon Retro Gaming 1 Nice find! Especially the joysticks are awesome.
How to program it to mine crypto?
Already been done years ago, BTC mining moved on to ASICs (real custom hardware chips) afterwards because they are far more efficient. FPGAs are useless now for any mining activities - just too slow.
I would have just wired the switches in series.
anyone wondering why he just described a FPGA as a PLC? Anyone who knows anything about PLC programming knows what a anti tie down circuit and how to implement it, why do i need a FPGA in this scenario?
Not to answer my own question but wouldn't an fpga be better served to define rules and condition of how the circuit should work for better optimization, and not define and particular circuit going to a particular machine. A single plc typically controls one machine for fear of a plc breaking so you dont wont multiple million million dollar machines on it and lose a shit ton of money on loss of production. So why not program the fpga to allow to mirror the circuit across 3 PLC's like raid 5 and poof you have hot swapable plc through a simple data link.
lmao programming in a nutshell
i hope it can be loaded with xbone or ps4 os :)
+Kayne Plays Road to 100k subs Not quite :D
dangit :(
could there be a custom os programmed?
The Xbox runs a stripped down version of NT and the Ps4 runs it's own OS. It would be worthless without the hardware.
oh
two things. in your presentation you have all button combo's connected to the same bench. that would not be very safe. :). another thing, as you are replicating easy hardware for current times noone will really notice the difference between hardware replications and software emulators for those systems. to be honest I do not see the advantage yet.
Input lag.
Problem with this thing is that todays computer are so powerfull they have zero problem do it fast enough to do it "instantly" or fast enough so nobody notice and this thing is more or less capped around Nes or something like this, its kinda expensive even 5 dolar pi zero would do same work. I am not saying this thing is pointless, but i am saying that today, its pointless, maybe if they will make it beafier or something. .
Your accent sounds half German, half Australian.
Hey Phil it would be nice to see your face at least once in a video here.
O.K. if you have 3 eyes and 2 noses on a mutant face I could see why you wouldn't want to.
#SaveNetNeutrality Tomorrow is the ultimate protest in internet history!!
did you know object-oriented programming ??? >_
object-oriented programming != multithreading
Funny name for german speaking people^^
+alpharay9 Haha, yes that's true :D
I'm a fan of FPGAs, but I don't know what you're talking about needing a fairly powerful computer, I can emulate more modern consoles on my 10 yr old laptop faster than I can register any lag...
+shadfurman Most of those emulators cut LOTS of corners to do that. For true, accurate emulation you need immensely more powerful systems. www.tested.com/tech/gaming/2712-why-perfect-hardware-snes-emulation-requires-a-3ghz-cpu/
Raspberry PI can emulate all these systems and runs MAME.
It also costs 25% of the Mist.
Also this is not replicating the hardware in hardware, that would require custom silicon NOT an ARM CPU.
Field Programmable Gate Arrays can not replicate all the functions of the Amiga in Hardware, there are not enough gates for things like the Agnus and Blitter.
There would still be a software emulation layer to tie the FPGA together, as it would have to completely switch functions many hundreds of times a second.
I can see your concern, it's easy to dismiss the Mist and compare it with emulation. I'd like to see the Pi handle 50 Hz PAL scrolling. I tried all the emulators, nothing compared to the Mist in this regard. Also input latency is poor on emulators.
Regarding the ARM, not sure were you got this information from. The Mist uses an Altera Cyclone FPGA chip. The Amiga core for example is only 370 KB in size! That file will rewire the FPGA chip, set all the logic gates in hardware.
The Mist is also much easier to setup than the Retro Pi and you cannot connect a CRT monitor, at least not that I know of.
So yea, don't dismiss the Mist, it's actually a pretty cool little unit :)
mist is not ARM based, it's a programmable gate array.
It does replicate enough of the hardware of the old machines.
It does not mimmick the nitty-gritty of transistor-level stuff like 30 nanosecond propagation delays, but the behaviour of the gates and flip flops as programmed is the same as on the original hardware.
I would say this is still emulation by definition but it is hardware emulation and not software I will give you that. It is harder to do in real time but yes much more accurate and I dare say simple once done correctly. I think something like this will bring up the bottom end of emulation and complete the cycle of preserving the machines that are slowly failing. I am very excited to see what the future brings. Also it is not entirely true that emulation works completely in serial even LLE these days uses some parallel processes and Higher level emulation tends to lean on it and even GPU acceleration rather heavily. Again in all cases losing compatibility and at times accuracy but it can be done it just becomes much more complex. An FPGA from 2100 would solve all our problems now lol.
I think you're overstating the authenticity of an FPGA emulation vs. software emulation. FPGAs are at the mercy of whoever wrote the ASIC emulation; if the FPGA code is wrong, it is the same thing as a software emulator code being wrong. Also, if the software emulator is written well enough, then you would not be able to tell the difference between the two in an A/B test, especially since they use the same USB input and output devices.
That's not to say the Mist isn't without advantages -- it boots up rather quickly, saves much more space and money than a dedicated computer, and you don't have to hunt around for emulators. But saying it is somehow better than a perfect emulator is misleading.
+Jim Leonard Not having access to documentation is an issue for FPGA and software developers. The Mist has advantages when it comes to smooth scrolling, being able to use a CRT monitor and input response. It's something you need to experience really and play between the Mist and emulator back and forth. Both have their strengths. I want to check out RetroPi and do a comparison, that would be interesting.
Nothing says you can't hook up a crt to a system running an emulator :-)
Try it and compare it to the Mist output from the videos. Now with the Raspberry Pi, is there a way to get VGA? Really got to get myself one of them.
This flowchart and presentation or whatever it is means absolutely diddly squat to a gamer. you lost me at the bending sheet metal stage....
That was about the worst explanation of an FPGA and what makes it different from a normal computer. You basically say it's different because it does not use software, but then you show how you program the software. WTF? O.k I get the mechanical switches to show the tasks don't have to be completed in order. But then you show how you use software and put what was a mechanical linkages into a program format. I'm even getting confused and I know this stuff. Damn! just damn.
+Patrick Wall Just because you don't understand something doesn't make this a bad video. The concept of software programming vs hardware programming is not hard to understand and the video explains using the simplest element: a button.
+Grey Panther Gamer O.K maybe I said that wrong. I had a very good grasp of the concept. That is until I watched this video. Also I can see now where everything goes wrong. You do a good job explaining the concept of hardware programming using the analogy if taking the tasks off the electrical circuits and building more.. ehr physical ones in the imagination and through your visualization. Where it gets screwy and confused ,well maybe just me is you take the concept and place it back in the controller. I see that as software. Where it's the physical layout of the circuits that form your logic gates and control the if and then functions. Placing the visual back in the controller hands it over back as software. As if a CPU where once again making the electrical connections by varying it's state. That is where it lost me. And it might Just be me. Yet had I not watched this video I never would have gotten confused then being a little OCD I HAD to figure out what and why I lost the concept. Because of that I have gone from a light grasp of the concept to a much deeper understanding of the fundamental differences. Thank you. BTW I didn't say it was a bad video. I said it's gotta be the worst!......explanation.
+Patrick Wall "and place it back in the controller. I see that as software." Interesting. Think of this step as someone telling the FPGA "hey I want you to re-wire your internals and become this circuit!". And the FPGA goes "sure will do" and the circuit you wanted is now wired inside the FPGA chip with connections leading to pins. So there is no software, it's all done in the circuit, but you can tell the FPGA to re-wire itself to any circuit you like.
+PhilsComputerLab Yes the basics of hardware programing at least as I saw it. I may be completely off though. I also approached the subject fresh from some software programming points and perversions. Yet the original code would have been in hardware first. As in physical punch cards or even further back cogs and wheels. And in part it's the question I'm trying to answer where is the line between software and hardware. I.E. Hardware programming vs software programming.
Man this is getting deep :D
I think of it that way, once the hardware it's built, it works as is. With software, you still need a processor to actually interpret and execute it.
Is that Raspberry Pi Combined with the single computer?