It is amazing how these locomotives can go round small corners 1st Radious the only problem I had was with Horny and Bachmann prairie tanks I just recently bought a Wrenn locomotive a prairie tanks that struggled . The trouble I have found with some old Wrenn locomotives that need energizing some run to slow
I use hornby 1st radius track due to space and havnt had any major issues , most my loco collection are older models, havnt tried my Heijin class 17 or class 15 yet ,but the 17 is as reliable as the originals were 😂
Nice video, man. Really enjoyable and informative. I can only go as high as 2nd radius with the space I have at the moment, but I do own an oval's worth of 3rd radius as well.
I started with Triang, which was 13 3/4" however in those days the middle wheels of 0-6-0s didn't touch the rails. As a result I said I wanted better radius curves. Sometimes it is the couplings, which prevent the use of tighter curves even with large couplings.
Yes, you are right about coupling problems - my third video in this series, where I go down to 10 inch radius curves, looks at how to avoid this problem: th-cam.com/video/wUbwMYoe0lk/w-d-xo.html
I used to own a tender drive Evening Star - probably made in the 1970s - and like you say, it runs fine on 1st radius curves. I also own a Piko 2-10-0 tank engine, and that has an unusual chassis design. All ten wheels have flanges but it can cope with first radius too.
Smallest radius is down to the space you have. Most steam engine models will go down to radius 2 (in theory) but if you have more space, use the largest radius you can get away with. Peco stream line short points are 24" radius (approx radius 4) where set track points and hornby small points are radius 2 (as are the inner curve on set track curves points) Personally, I prefer the look of stream line points (medium 36" or long)
I see that you don't have tried with 4 coupled wheels engines, like a 8F or a Q6, that might be too sharp for those ones... Anyway, I have some short wheelbase kettles (J50, LMS 1F and Webb coal tank) that would be at home with 1st radius and 2 axle wagons and coaches. I will test it and see what happens. The main problem with such tight curves is the overhang of long vehicles, e. g. my 57ft Stanier non-corridor coaches, that had to be taken into account when planning a layout with tight curves. But as you said, and I agree on it, better ugly than nothing.
I've tried the locodrive Hornby Stanier 8F 2-8-0 and it was okay in one direction, but derailed in the other, so one to be avoided. The tender drive version of the 8F was fine, as was the earliest Hornby Evening Star (2-10-0) - but these were both designed when 1st radius was the norm.
@@richardhiggins6471 On the 8F, and also on the Black Five, the tender is very light, and when the track is not perfect, it derails without mercy when you run the locomotive in reverses, tender first. But, in my opinion, if you're using sharp curves as first radius one are, you have to forget using heavy locomotives, ans anything above three coupled motor axes, at least on recent models with enthusiasts in mind. But you still have plenty of light locomotives which permits you to have something to run. I will try a small layout with first radius curves now, I have seen what can run on it, and I have everything what is needed.
Hi Adi, I suspect that the tolerances of ready to run models mean that most of these 0-6-0s will manage first radius curves okay, but maybe if the back to back measurements are a bit out, they struggle. I have found that some Bachmann locos (e.g. my V2) struggle on 2nd and 3rd radius curves because the back to backs are too big.
Interesting demo. As an aside, how do the points of these track systems compare for radius? And when you go back to the old Triang track, does that go any smaller? The appearance (at shows) is that the curves are very aggressive. The limiting factor is less likely to be the rolling mechanism (like the bogie of the class 20) but the designed details. The bogies do have a rotational limit, but this does not need to be radius limiting. The details that limit, as with the prototype, are cylinders and steps, which extend below the chassis/footplate, and so stop the pony truck/bogie From following the corner before the rest of the loco has started to turn.
I know that Jouef made some points that were very tight in radius - as well as a double slip points that looks very toy-like, but I've never used them myself. As far as I know, Triang Super 4 track (the oldest track I've owned) had the same geometry as the current Hornby and Peco setrack points.
Peco and Hornby Setrack both use a nominal 2nd radius for their points but as there is a short piece of straight at the toe of the point the curve is closer to 1st radius anyway.
True, tight curves don't look realistic, but my philosophy is: if you only have a tight space to play with, looking unrealistic is better than not having a model railway at all.
@@richardhiggins6471 That's true, but I used scenery to hide the tight curves where possible. Create an illusion or run stock with short wheelbase to avoid the hangout on tight corners.
1st radius is roughly 15 inches (so 30 inches for a 180 degree turn), 2nd radius 18 inches (so 36 inches for a 180 turn). But with both the outside rail is slightly more, plus with sleepers wider still you would need a baseboard of 32 inches or 38 inches as an absolute minimum. Ideally slightly wider so that you can add some scenery on the outside or at least some strong fencing to prevent disaster if the train derails.
The A3 couldn't cope with the Jouef curves - Hornby 1st radius at about 14.5 inches was as low as it could go. I didn't try the other 0-6-0 locos (J15 and J50) as I think they would also struggle.
Ive got 9" radius curves on "00" track using black beetle motor bogies
I have to use 1st radius to get any sort of layout in my small space.
Very interesting, I will try a couple of my locos on 1st radius now!
I got a 9inch radius with OO scale peco flex track.
Dito.
I use black beetle motor units
Did some research and Triang series 3 “small radius” (first radius) is 13.5 inches
It is amazing how these locomotives can go round small corners 1st Radious the only problem I had was with Horny and Bachmann prairie tanks I just recently bought a Wrenn locomotive a prairie tanks that struggled . The trouble I have found with some old Wrenn locomotives that need energizing some run to slow
I use hornby 1st radius track due to space and havnt had any major issues , most my loco collection are older models, havnt tried my Heijin class 17 or class 15 yet ,but the 17 is as reliable as the originals were 😂
Nice video, man. Really enjoyable and informative. I can only go as high as 2nd radius with the space I have at the moment, but I do own an oval's worth of 3rd radius as well.
I started with Triang, which was 13 3/4" however in those days the middle wheels of 0-6-0s didn't touch the rails. As a result I said I wanted better radius curves. Sometimes it is the couplings, which prevent the use of tighter curves even with large couplings.
Yes, you are right about coupling problems - my third video in this series, where I go down to 10 inch radius curves, looks at how to avoid this problem: th-cam.com/video/wUbwMYoe0lk/w-d-xo.html
Interesting and informative video
The Black five is a Hornby railroad 4 6. 0 but it is no problem at all I did see a EVENING STAR ON one of these videos
I used to own a tender drive Evening Star - probably made in the 1970s - and like you say, it runs fine on 1st radius curves. I also own a Piko 2-10-0 tank engine, and that has an unusual chassis design. All ten wheels have flanges but it can cope with first radius too.
Great video very helpful ive subscribed thanks 😊
Smallest radius is down to the space you have. Most steam engine models will go down to radius 2 (in theory) but if you have more space, use the largest radius you can get away with. Peco stream line short points are 24" radius (approx radius 4) where set track points and hornby small points are radius 2 (as are the inner curve on set track curves points)
Personally, I prefer the look of stream line points (medium 36" or long)
I see that you don't have tried with 4 coupled wheels engines, like a 8F or a Q6, that might be too sharp for those ones... Anyway, I have some short wheelbase kettles (J50, LMS 1F and Webb coal tank) that would be at home with 1st radius and 2 axle wagons and coaches. I will test it and see what happens.
The main problem with such tight curves is the overhang of long vehicles, e. g. my 57ft Stanier non-corridor coaches, that had to be taken into account when planning a layout with tight curves. But as you said, and I agree on it, better ugly than nothing.
I've tried the locodrive Hornby Stanier 8F 2-8-0 and it was okay in one direction, but derailed in the other, so one to be avoided. The tender drive version of the 8F was fine, as was the earliest Hornby Evening Star (2-10-0) - but these were both designed when 1st radius was the norm.
@@richardhiggins6471 On the 8F, and also on the Black Five, the tender is very light, and when the track is not perfect, it derails without mercy when you run the locomotive in reverses, tender first. But, in my opinion, if you're using sharp curves as first radius one are, you have to forget using heavy locomotives, ans anything above three coupled motor axes, at least on recent models with enthusiasts in mind. But you still have plenty of light locomotives which permits you to have something to run.
I will try a small layout with first radius curves now, I have seen what can run on it, and I have everything what is needed.
I saw a Hornby Evening Star run round a first Radious track so I tried my Black 5 on first Radious track no problem at all
Which version of Black 5 is that? The latest superdetail one, Railroad version, or an earlier tender drive version?
It amazing what locos can do
I wonder if that manufacturer know this or not
Thanks for sharing
Keep safe arp
Hi Adi, I suspect that the tolerances of ready to run models mean that most of these 0-6-0s will manage first radius curves okay, but maybe if the back to back measurements are a bit out, they struggle. I have found that some Bachmann locos (e.g. my V2) struggle on 2nd and 3rd radius curves because the back to backs are too big.
Interesting demo.
As an aside, how do the points of these track systems compare for radius?
And when you go back to the old Triang track, does that go any smaller? The appearance (at shows) is that the curves are very aggressive.
The limiting factor is less likely to be the rolling mechanism (like the bogie of the class 20) but the designed details. The bogies do have a rotational limit, but this does not need to be radius limiting. The details that limit, as with the prototype, are cylinders and steps, which extend below the chassis/footplate, and so stop the pony truck/bogie From following the corner before the rest of the loco has started to turn.
I know that Jouef made some points that were very tight in radius - as well as a double slip points that looks very toy-like, but I've never used them myself. As far as I know, Triang Super 4 track (the oldest track I've owned) had the same geometry as the current Hornby and Peco setrack points.
Peco and Hornby Setrack both use a nominal 2nd radius for their points but as there is a short piece of straight at the toe of the point the curve is closer to 1st radius anyway.
The only problem with tight curves is that they look awful, especially with passenger coaches.
True, tight curves don't look realistic, but my philosophy is: if you only have a tight space to play with, looking unrealistic is better than not having a model railway at all.
@@richardhiggins6471 That's true, but I used scenery to hide the tight curves where possible. Create an illusion or run stock with short wheelbase to avoid the hangout on tight corners.
@@brianmorton4989 Good idea to hide the tight curves behind/under scenery.
If you use flexitrack you cna go even tighter but I wouldnt recommend it
I've gone down to about 8" radius on a small 6' x 2' continuous run layout (also on youtube) but my Hornby class 08 sometimes derails on this.
Thank you great video. Would a Virgin Pendolino run on a 1 radius please?
Sorry, I haven't got one so I cannot test it.
no it will not with the tilting meconisam
Hi what is the width of the board thank you john
3 foot wide by 3'6" long.
Problem with running locos on such tight curves is you will damage the wheels and axle bearings!!
I've not come across this problem. I don't run my locos very fast so I can't imagine the stresses on the axle bearings and wheels will be that great.
1st 2nd radius ?? What’s that in feet inches to make a 180 turn? Just starting to model. 🙂
1st radius is roughly 15 inches (so 30 inches for a 180 degree turn), 2nd radius 18 inches (so 36 inches for a 180 turn). But with both the outside rail is slightly more, plus with sleepers wider still you would need a baseboard of 32 inches or 38 inches as an absolute minimum. Ideally slightly wider so that you can add some scenery on the outside or at least some strong fencing to prevent disaster if the train derails.
Richard Higgins thanks for the info Richard it helps a lot as stuck for space.
Brill, if the ist radius is in a tunnel you wont see the downfalls of 1 st radius anyway, brill for small spaces
Did the larger locos, shown on the outer track, run at all on the inner track?
The A3 couldn't cope with the Jouef curves - Hornby 1st radius at about 14.5 inches was as low as it could go. I didn't try the other 0-6-0 locos (J15 and J50) as I think they would also struggle.
How big is the base board ?
About 3' x 4'
Richard Higgins thank you
“the modern stuff can’t do 1st radius” ha!! Looks like it can
And it runs even better with a decent feedback controller.
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