Mr. Tigerstar, I’m very sorry to interrupt but this is just an apology comment from me to you. I will quit asking you to change some video titles for the rest of my life. It’s just my mind keeps telling me to do that whenever you upload a new video. Next time, I will not listen to my mind and I’ll ignore asking you to change previous video titles, I promise. I really love your videos, they’re so cool. You are one of the best mapping channels of all time. I’ll still comment on some of your videos it's just not ones relating to video titles. I’m saying this one more time and I’m being honest and respectful, I will never ask you to change your video titles ever again. And for the people who replied to my comment on last week’s video, I’m very sorry too.
Very interesting perspective, but it's a bit confusing so far. I tagged you on Twitter with one of the biggest experts of the era, and he has genuine, detailed maps from both the Axis and Allies. I believe that could help us a lot in understanding the dilemma.
There is a massive problem with this question, the civilian administration of Tunisia was always Tunisian. While the Resident General could dictate the government from above, it wasn't really France administering it. As such, who controlled Tunisia was always a question of who had the bigger army to tell the Bey what to do. Technically speaking the Vichy model of government probably never collapsed, as far as Moncef Bey had any real control in an active war zone, he was still acting as the real civilian administrative authority, not the Italian North African colony. So if we wanna ask, who owned Tunisia, the answer is "who replaced the Resident General", as the answer is no one, Jean-Pierre Esteva remained the technical leader of the colony. So in de jure terms, Tunisia was probably still a French colony under Estava who followed Petain, a person representing no government anymore(so maybe a rogue French colony???), it was never annexed on any level by the Italians, in practical terms, it was under occupation of the German-lead Axis forces.
This is a great comment, I honestly think it's more likely that the formal arrangements, as in the how the French government had protectorate status over the Regency or Tunis, wasn't changed because they probably didn't even bother. The big issue with many historians is not being able to accept the idea that they simply don't have enough sources to make clear conclusions. Also has anyone attempted to contact Tunisian historians, instead of looking through WW2 based histories.
Fascinating! Had no idea France kept so much of the native administration there. Another way to look at it with the de facto situation is assessing Hans-Jurgen von Arnem's actions as commander in chief of the Afrika Korps (redesignated Fifth Panzer Army) after Rommel was relieved. After the war he was accused of pressing the local Jewish population into forced labor - at first glance it seems he kind of did what he wanted without having to go through any layer of bureaucracy. So after Case Anton, I bet the Italian and German forces looked at the administration already in place, meh ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ we don't have time to change things, and just did or took whatever they needed, with the implied threat that any interference would meet with the same result as the Vichy government back in Europe. Would be cool if someone with the linguistic knowledge could dive into any primary sources. Maybe Messe's book "How the War in Africa Ended"?
Correct. Tunisia and Morocco were self-governing PROTECTORATES. But the coastal part of Algeria, was part of France. It was not a protectorate like Morocco, or a colony like Cameroon; it was France, which explains its brutal independence war.
في عمروا ما كان فما حاجة اسمها "تونس الإيطالية" برشا فينا في تونس كي تبدا حاجة قديمة يقولوا "اا من عهد الألمان" ولا "اا من عهد الفرنسسين" أما في عمري ما سمعت بواحد قال "من عهد الطلاين" حتى ماما تحكيلي ديما على كيفاش والديها وعمومتها قبل تعاملوا مع الجنود لألمان مش الطليان. تحكي راو جدي حكى على كيفاه سرقولهم مرة نعجة ولكل.
@@Someoneprobably101A7na l zouz “someone” ou twensa. Inti “probably” someone, ama ena someone berrasmi. Ena probably chill guy. Ama inti chill guy berrasmi
If it can help, my grand parents remembered a mix of German and Italian soldiers occupying Tunisia. According to the Arabic Wikipedia, those three months, there were only fights and battles everywhere. Which means that no one really administered Tunisia at that time.
I'm a Tunisian viewer and our official History says that the Bey of Tunis ruled the country even during the colonization. France couldn't do whatever it wanted (unlike in Algeria) and they had to make the Bey sign documents whenever they wanted to introduce changes. So the consensus is that the Bey of Tunis was in charge during Vichy France government years (a puppet of a puppet yes) but he was the only one with true political legitimacy here. We have books written in Arabic with detailed events and references, but you have to ask Tunisian Historians for that. It's funny how you looked into German/Italian/French sources but didn't even consider to look at our sources... I wonder why is that!
Good video but 2:30 and 7:40 need clarification. Firstly Rommels joint German-Italian forces didnt enter Tunisia until February 1943 (Panzer Armee Africa/Italian 1st Army being the same basically) . The initial occupation and control of Tunisia was carried out by German units that from early December 1942 onwards were under 5. Panzerarmee. By the time of Tunisian campaign it seems that the Germans slightly outnumbered Italians overall in Africa (Is that correct? Dont know for sure) and German units occupied it initially, so id say it was a German occupation. Btw the civil administration remained French, Vichy governance and its colonial Tunisia wasnt officially abolished during case Anton, just occupied.
Something im unclear about: I think even 5. Panzerarmee was under Commando Supremo (Italian overall HQ for Med operations) during its time under OB Süd, but also under OKW command? Its complicated.
We studied in history that during the second world war the official syndicates and parties that were against the french colonization had contact with the nazi party in france, and they had even visited tunisia during the war. Basically this is the first time that I ever hear tunisia was considered italian during the WW2, because in the bac exams (highschool degree in Tunisia) we study that during Vichy's control there was a counselor who was in a official contact with the tunisian liberation parties, which supports the fact that tunisia was closer to being german more than italian during the war.
There are 2 known battles that took place in tunisia, one in Gasserine and other one in Merth where tunnels were dug, and basically the troops during tunisia campaign was under the german control, and italians were camped 90% in libya as it was their colony, and italians backed up the german entry in egypt against the brits, and even the brits are responsible of bombardments in tunisia in a battle called Hamem Sousse battle, in which they were chasing the german to their lines behind Merth tunnel. I can give additional information or references if anyone asks, but this is what they teach us in tunisia.
The oldest brother of my grandpa served in the Italian army under Rommel in the african campaign and he came back from Tunisia. He used to tell a story where he hit a palm tree with a cannon so they gave him 2 free days. Kinda pointless because they were in the middle of the desert
well my grandpa told me that in zaghoan province(where he does live) he used to see only italian guys coming every week asking for eggs, he told me that they were realy badly equipped
Fun fact: in the italian wikipedia page for the italian invasion of France is stated that Hitler himself gave his approval to hand over tunisia to Italy. However, Mussolini immediately changed idea on the harsh conditions that he wanted to impose to France and didn't continued with any claim on vichy territories. The reasons on why he changed idea so abruptly are kinda still debated. A book from Denis Mack Smith is cited as one of the sources.
According to Ciano's diaries (fascist Italy's foreign minister), the plan to push for the occupation of French territories was scrapped after the disappointing performance of the Italian Army on the Alps during the last days of the French campaign. Basically the idea was to not upset the Germans by making the armistice negotiation with the new French government more difficult. The question would have been brought back if an actual peace conference ever took place.
@@OrsoBart7734So, in other words, although Mussolini gave a big speech about "needing only a couple hundred men to die in order to sit at the negotiation table ," he understood that his lacklustre performance would only make Vichy more bitter if he acted all high and mighty and demanded too much.
Frank nicosia in “Nazi Germany and the Arab World” contradicts this, Hitler never gave permission and resisted the idea of handing Vichy territories to Italy
Of course the Italians themselves would claim that Italy could have taken more territory but didn't out of the kindness of Mussolini's heart. In reality this makes no sense, the real reason is that Italy's performance against France was so terrible that massive annexations couldn't be justified.
I'm a subscriber from Tunisia and Thank you for this video! There's something else you didn't mention, Tunisia was technically a kingdom and the Tunisian monarchs remained as nominal rulers/governors during the French rule, Even during the Axis invasion and occupation the monarchy stayed and the Tunisian monarch, aka the Bey, declared neutrality during the war.
@@ryderninja1844 In the international scene I'd say most definitely, but locally, the administration was not controlled by any other countries. It was Tunisian. Some people seem to forget that Tunisia was a protectorate, not a colony. Which meant that local laws applied and the citizens were subject to Tunisian law. Although France could at anytime overturn a rule or law. They wouldn't do it because it's legitimacy in Tunisia was reinforced by the Monarchy. If they lost the support they would most probably lose the protectorate.
This guy did not even bother looking up some references from the country he is making the video about. Try searching for sources coming from Tunisian historians to get the full picture.
Its a mystery because even if Italy wanted to administer Tunisia for themselves, they have bigger fish to fry and cant be bothered to administer it in the first place
It has just been removed (i wasn't fast enough, someone beat me to it) Update: the previous change was undone, i've currently opened a discussion on the wikipedia talk page, if everything goes alright, the reference is going to get removed in a couple hours at maximum Please, DO NOT edit the wikipedia page if you do not know what you're doing, contrary to popular belief, one cannot just change something on wikipedia and expect it to stay, the change needs to be well supported.
As a tunisian, my grandparents always gives my cousins and I stories about the french rule and german rule too, but NEVER heard italian rule or soldiers from him
As far as I know: With the 1940 fall of France, French authorities in Tunisia immediately supported the Vichy regime, which continued to govern the southern provinces of France after its capitulation to German forces.
4:08 the territories controlled by Germany included Western Macedonia, and part of Central Macedonia. The rest of Central Macedonia, as well as Eastern Msceodnia, were annexed by Bulgaria. "Southern Macedonia" isn't a thing.
Tunisian here! A lot of brothers are suggesting digging into the Tunisian archives, and what's funny is that all the records from that period in the tunisian archive are talking about stupid things like tribal conflicts over water sources, land and cattle also some ceremonies and visits
The vichy government was never gone, what are you saying. The germans did occupy the south of the country at one point, yeah, but despite military occupation France was still led by the vichy regime, Pétain and his government were still in power of all civilian matters
I always like videos like this because I feel like the Italian involvement in world War II is often times glossed over. I'm not sure how it's taught in other schools but going to public school here in America. We always talk about the Japanese and the Pacific Theater and also the Soviet and American advance on the Germans. Mussolini is normally glossed over
Our grand parents remember actually interacting with german troops at that time in the south and center of tunisia, and many said that they where kind (believe it or not) as they treated tunisians as humans when french soldiers did war crimes at a daily basis
Ok italian here and this is my vision: To fully understand the situation in Tunisia during World War II, we must first examine the political and military context of Italy in 1942. Italy’s autonomous military campaigns-including those in Greece, the French Alps, East Africa, and Egypt-had all ended in failure. These defeats not only eroded the trust Germany had in the Italian armed forces but also shattered the illusion of an invincible Italy among its citizens. By 1942, the war efforts of Germany and Italy had effectively merged. Italian units often found themselves taking orders from German commanders, as Germany increasingly dictated the course of the war. This dynamic became even more pronounced following the armistice of 8 September 1943, with the implementation of Operation Achse and the establishment of the Italian Social Republic (RSI). Many Italian units, such as the 10th MAS, aligned themselves with Germany, later reorganizing under the RSI's National Republican Guard. Returning to the central issue of Tunisia: during my education in Italy, both in school and university, it was often taught that all Axis-conquered territories in North Africa were considered Italian. This narrative included not only the territories seized up to El Alamein in Egypt but also the portion of Tunisia that came under Axis control following the fall of Vichy France. However, in reality, the Germans held the commanding authority in Tunisia, as they did in most of the Italian occupied zone in late 1942 So Italian Tunisia was ever a thing? Well... Kind of? At least de Jure; the reality was a German Military occupation as most of the map tell
Tunisia was under Vichy even after Case Anton (government existed) but an error is saying Rommel occupied Tunisia. He didnt; the German units air lifted there werent under his command at all and wouldnt be until February 1943 when Heeresgruppe Afrika was formed.
My great grandfather never came home for WW2 to his family in Catania. Rumor is he met a woman and had a child in Tunisia. We found out the truth, he died of syphiliis in the late 40s.
Italy did a terrible job in Egypt ❌ Italy overall led a good offensive military campaign, considering it was an agrarian country with mostly infantry against the UK who was at that time considered to be the most powerful country in the World ✅ Also the Afrikakorps didn’t take control, Rommel did as he was the highest officer there and Graziani failed in continuing the advance as he didn’t yet fully understand (like most generals) Blitzkrieg doctrine. Also German tanks and new Italian tanks were given to the Italian Army in Africa, which still remained much larger in terms of manpower than Afrikakorps. 3:58 we got Corsica. It actually was a spontaneous action, as the Italian soldiers just sailed to Corsica without any order being given from the High Command. Reports show that the Corsicans had mixed opinions, with some welcoming the Italians, some indifferent and some staunch antifascists. Also the Greek (and other countries) occupation thing was shared as (obviously) Germany had 5 times more manpower overall than Italy. Occupation ≠ annexation (the USA and USSR both occupied significant portions of Europe, that doesn’t mean they were under actual American or Soviet administration. The annexations were all decided at the peace table AFTER the war).
I always heard stories about how the Germans and Americans fought near my grandmother's village back in the day. Also other stories from my friend's family on how the Germans treated them with respect unlike the French and how the Americans gave them chocolates. But let me tell you something as a Tunisian. Tunisia was no else's property but our own, whether it's a colony or a protectorate it was a country shackled by occupiers who'll soon have to leave through any means. a Boiling pot ready to pour open and deliver the taste of liberation.
They were probably too busy to bother deciding in the first place. They'd sort it out later and then everyone would agree that it retroactively counted in the beforetimes. But later didn't happen so the beforetimes went unaccounted-for.
btw that's not the real map of Tunisia at that time.. Before the Independence the north west of Algeria and the east of Libya were part of Tunisia, they have many relatives in Tunisia and almost the same dialect.
I don't understand why most of the comments seem to understand what happened as if they were history scholars or a part of their history, while I am Tunisian and I have never studied this in my life or read it in a book?? Did you study this in your schools? Strange.
The title says it all If Tunisia was owned by the Italians When talking about germanía , British isles or any territory in white Europe, you talk about occupation but when talking about Africa, Asia or Latin America you talk about owning as if when conquered nobody lived there or as if those people had no right to own land This mentality continues to this day
So according to Wikipedia (I know, I know...) both in English and french the french governor of Tunisia at the time was a man called Jean-Pierre Esteva. It is said that he stayed in office due to orders from Petain and Laval until May 1943. So if this is true Tunisia was under Vichy administration to the end of the African campaign. They name a french book about french persons in Tunisia 1930-1950 as a source.
This is interesting. This would mean that even though Case Anton abolished Vichy France, Tunisia was still under the old management. This would support the argument Emperor Tigerstar has made in the video, that the post-Anton occupation was a hastly and diffuse thing which could be best described as "Axis-occupied" rather than German or Italian occupation.
@@Minuku42 Case Anton did not abolish Vichy France, this whole thing is based on this misconception in the Anglo world on french history and it's kinda hilarious.
Then in truth, Case Anton has the Axis neighbors militarily occupy the Vichy state and later transferred their rump government into southern Germany later. For Tunisia, this meant that business in the intruded colony, while usual, has been absorbed into an encroaching warzone
The ellipsis in the italian book "Le terre nostre ritornano..." Are not weird for an italian reader, it's common to use them in titles for dramatic effect
The Vichy government didn't de jure cease to exist after Case Anton; it was still technically the civilian government (for whatever that was worth) of occupied France right up until the Axis armies were driven out of the country. In fact, it set up a government-in-exile in Simaringen, Germany after the fall of Paris to the Allies. Apparently, the Vichy Resident-General of Tunisia, Jean-Pierre Esteva, remained in office in Tunis itself right up until 7 May 1943, only being evacuated literally as British forces were entering the city, and only a few days before the final surrender of the last Axis forces in Africa. So, technically, it very much seems it was Vichy French right up until the end
Tunisia was never occupied by italian goverment. The occupation was represented by french "مقيم عام" ( I don't know the exact traslation) all of them represented France in Tunisia and there was no gap between 1881 up to 1956. The French kept administrating the colony through Vichy France. You need to go back to roman empire after Carthage lost the punic war
I'm not sure about the archives, but as a Tunisian who has heard stories from older generations who lived through that time, the general impression was that the Germans were the ones in charge. Many Tunisians (though not all) seemed to support them and viewed them as liberators from French occupation. There's a well-known Tunisian TV series about that era it only depicts interactions with the Germans and the Allies (mainly the French and some British/Americans pilots) but doesn't include Italians at all. This suggests that the Italians were insignificant in that contex at least from a tunisian POV .
Exactly my grandpa told me stories about it the French were in control versus the German which Tunisians supported .italians were not in control nor got the liking of Tunisians as they look at Italians as simple farmers harvesting in north tunisia not a super power compared to Germany
Anecdote: the Vichy regime officially ceased to exist only in 1944, and officially kept control for these 2 more years over police, administration etc... although it was entirely occupied or under Allied campaigns for oversees territories
I can call it the 'Italian Dream,' haha. I'm Tunisian, and I've never heard of Italy administering Tunisia, not even for a single moment. Tunisia was a French-occupied territory from 1881 to 1956. During that time, there was a Beylic regime-a puppet monarchy controlled by the French administration. The Germans tried to influence the Bey and take control during World War II, but they failed.
Good news, the Wikipedia page on the Fourth Shore in English has been reduced to four sentences that seem mostly fascist propaganda-free (though now citing only a single, 1940 source).
it is France im Tunisian Tunisia declared independence from FRANCE not Italy and that happend in1956 20th of march and you are talking around that time..........
5:24 Malta mentioned, ill go checkout this journal from the University of Malta might be interesting. Edit: Also the title makes sense and is not cut off "Our land has returned..."
Tunisian here and all i had to do to answer this question is ask my grand father. And to him this Italian thing is bogus since the french still had their colonial regime up and running and the occupation was understood by the population to be german. Resistance operation still targeted french intrests alongside germans and italians.
I'd rather Say yes ...not to hurt Italy's Meloni's ego and self-esteem. Btw, I am Tunisian and we don't have a beef with Italy but we do with Rome: Annibale ad portam
Vichy France was not a puppet. While yes they had to pay an insane amount in war reparations as well as have half there country occupied, they where still fully independent that said no to Germany on various occasions, namely when Germany wanted frances fleet which lead to war breaking back out and vichy France being truly crushed.
Sometimes I just have the weirdest gripes to talk about, huh?
Mr. Tigerstar, I’m very sorry to interrupt but this is just an apology comment from me to you. I will quit asking you to change some video titles for the rest of my life. It’s just my mind keeps telling me to do that whenever you upload a new video. Next time, I will not listen to my mind and I’ll ignore asking you to change previous video titles, I promise. I really love your videos, they’re so cool. You are one of the best mapping channels of all time. I’ll still comment on some of your videos it's just not ones relating to video titles. I’m saying this one more time and I’m being honest and respectful, I will never ask you to change your video titles ever again. And for the people who replied to my comment on last week’s video, I’m very sorry too.
Hey mister tigerstar please change the title I don't like it
The incidence of unsubstantiated Wikipedia statements is too damn high!
Answer: Justinian and Belisarius control Tunisia. End of story.
Please tear into more poorly cited Wikipedia history content! It injects pure dopamine into my reference librarian head.
>"Did Italian Tunisia exist?"
Only 146 BC bois will remember.
Carthago delenda est
And Roger II of Sicily enjoyers, of course
Cartago Delenda Est
@@bradenculver7457beat me to it
*BCE
Very interesting perspective, but it's a bit confusing so far. I tagged you on Twitter with one of the biggest experts of the era, and he has genuine, detailed maps from both the Axis and Allies. I believe that could help us a lot in understanding the dilemma.
There is a massive problem with this question, the civilian administration of Tunisia was always Tunisian. While the Resident General could dictate the government from above, it wasn't really France administering it. As such, who controlled Tunisia was always a question of who had the bigger army to tell the Bey what to do. Technically speaking the Vichy model of government probably never collapsed, as far as Moncef Bey had any real control in an active war zone, he was still acting as the real civilian administrative authority, not the Italian North African colony. So if we wanna ask, who owned Tunisia, the answer is "who replaced the Resident General", as the answer is no one, Jean-Pierre Esteva remained the technical leader of the colony. So in de jure terms, Tunisia was probably still a French colony under Estava who followed Petain, a person representing no government anymore(so maybe a rogue French colony???), it was never annexed on any level by the Italians, in practical terms, it was under occupation of the German-lead Axis forces.
That definitely reinforces the consensus then if he never gave any authorities to the Italians.
This is a great comment, I honestly think it's more likely that the formal arrangements, as in the how the French government had protectorate status over the Regency or Tunis, wasn't changed because they probably didn't even bother. The big issue with many historians is not being able to accept the idea that they simply don't have enough sources to make clear conclusions. Also has anyone attempted to contact Tunisian historians, instead of looking through WW2 based histories.
What this guy said at the end^ @@elpresidenta1945
Fascinating! Had no idea France kept so much of the native administration there.
Another way to look at it with the de facto situation is assessing Hans-Jurgen von Arnem's actions as commander in chief of the Afrika Korps (redesignated Fifth Panzer Army) after Rommel was relieved. After the war he was accused of pressing the local Jewish population into forced labor - at first glance it seems he kind of did what he wanted without having to go through any layer of bureaucracy. So after Case Anton, I bet the Italian and German forces looked at the administration already in place, meh ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ we don't have time to change things, and just did or took whatever they needed, with the implied threat that any interference would meet with the same result as the Vichy government back in Europe. Would be cool if someone with the linguistic knowledge could dive into any primary sources. Maybe Messe's book "How the War in Africa Ended"?
Correct. Tunisia and Morocco were self-governing PROTECTORATES. But the coastal part of Algeria, was part of France. It was not a protectorate like Morocco, or a colony like Cameroon; it was France, which explains its brutal independence war.
Bro, I'm Tunisian and we don't even know who's running the country right now, let alone a 100 years ago
we really needed your cuckish comment thank you for the contribution
في عمروا ما كان فما حاجة اسمها "تونس الإيطالية" برشا فينا في تونس كي تبدا حاجة قديمة يقولوا "اا من عهد الألمان" ولا "اا من عهد الفرنسسين" أما في عمري ما سمعت بواحد قال "من عهد الطلاين"
حتى ماما تحكيلي ديما على كيفاش والديها وعمومتها قبل تعاملوا مع الجنود لألمان مش الطليان. تحكي راو جدي حكى على كيفاه سرقولهم مرة نعجة ولكل.
Yes we know ,may be you don't know ,but all you wish is some creepy Islamist to rule it
@@Someoneprobably101A7na l zouz “someone” ou twensa. Inti “probably” someone, ama ena someone berrasmi. Ena probably chill guy. Ama inti chill guy berrasmi
lmao true
They just forgot to sign the lease to the country huh
Eyyyy Stoney, great server man
There's no way I just found a stonewoeks comment with 88 likes and a single reply
@@jimbobtheA1 Yeah lol it was funny. Greetings from Thevelán!
@@ArchieGames586 Absolutely! Greetings from Faerico!
Damn didn't expect stoney hee
If it can help, my grand parents remembered a mix of German and Italian soldiers occupying Tunisia. According to the Arabic Wikipedia, those three months, there were only fights and battles everywhere. Which means that no one really administered Tunisia at that time.
France own Tunisia till this day.
We won't break free from them either any time soon..
I'm a Tunisian viewer and our official History says that the Bey of Tunis ruled the country even during the colonization. France couldn't do whatever it wanted (unlike in Algeria) and they had to make the Bey sign documents whenever they wanted to introduce changes.
So the consensus is that the Bey of Tunis was in charge during Vichy France government years (a puppet of a puppet yes) but he was the only one with true political legitimacy here.
We have books written in Arabic with detailed events and references, but you have to ask Tunisian Historians for that. It's funny how you looked into German/Italian/French sources but didn't even consider to look at our sources... I wonder why is that!
They did have it after the Third Punic War.
3:00 literally what I do in EU4
7:46 All those Ballon D'Or weren't enough, mfers gave Messi an entire German division 💀
Fr 😭
it's not actually "messi" it's "messe" :DDD he wrote it wrong.
That German-Argentinian connection is making more sense to me now.
Hilarious😂
Well, Messi IS Argentinian 😅. So, there's a possibility considering he's pretty white.... 😅
As a Tunisian my grandparents never said anything about Italian occupation , rather a German one
Good video but 2:30 and 7:40 need clarification.
Firstly Rommels joint German-Italian forces didnt enter Tunisia until February 1943 (Panzer Armee Africa/Italian 1st Army being the same basically) . The initial occupation and control of Tunisia was carried out by German units that from early December 1942 onwards were under 5. Panzerarmee. By the time of Tunisian campaign it seems that the Germans slightly outnumbered Italians overall in Africa (Is that correct? Dont know for sure) and German units occupied it initially, so id say it was a German occupation.
Btw the civil administration remained French, Vichy governance and its colonial Tunisia wasnt officially abolished during case Anton, just occupied.
Something im unclear about: I think even 5. Panzerarmee was under Commando Supremo (Italian overall HQ for Med operations) during its time under OB Süd, but also under OKW command? Its complicated.
4:22 “Russians ….. drive for Mariupol”. How history repeats itself.
I had never heard anything about Italy actually getting control of Tunisia, it was always brought up as just a hypothetical.
Roma empire is italy sooo
@ I mean in the context of WW2.
@@Pollo10ccno it isnt
@@Hade_exeyes, the correct verb is “was”
@@mr.archivity Italy only came to be in the 19th century
We studied in history that during the second world war the official syndicates and parties that were against the french colonization had contact with the nazi party in france, and they had even visited tunisia during the war. Basically this is the first time that I ever hear tunisia was considered italian during the WW2, because in the bac exams (highschool degree in Tunisia) we study that during Vichy's control there was a counselor who was in a official contact with the tunisian liberation parties, which supports the fact that tunisia was closer to being german more than italian during the war.
There are 2 known battles that took place in tunisia, one in Gasserine and other one in Merth where tunnels were dug, and basically the troops during tunisia campaign was under the german control, and italians were camped 90% in libya as it was their colony, and italians backed up the german entry in egypt against the brits, and even the brits are responsible of bombardments in tunisia in a battle called Hamem Sousse battle, in which they were chasing the german to their lines behind Merth tunnel. I can give additional information or references if anyone asks, but this is what they teach us in tunisia.
The oldest brother of my grandpa served in the Italian army under Rommel in the african campaign and he came back from Tunisia. He used to tell a story where he hit a palm tree with a cannon so they gave him 2 free days. Kinda pointless because they were in the middle of the desert
What did that poor palm tree do to him?
never hit our palm trees with cannons
Was he rewarded for shooting a tree?
@@MsPaintMr No It was a reward as a "contest"
Greatest italian warhero.
well my grandpa told me that in zaghoan province(where he does live) he used to see only italian guys coming every week asking for eggs, he told me that they were realy badly equipped
Thank God they forgot about Carthage! 😂
4:40
it matters not for an over arching plot so to speak but for history for history's sake.
Fun fact: in the italian wikipedia page for the italian invasion of France is stated that Hitler himself gave his approval to hand over tunisia to Italy. However, Mussolini immediately changed idea on the harsh conditions that he wanted to impose to France and didn't continued with any claim on vichy territories. The reasons on why he changed idea so abruptly are kinda still debated. A book from Denis Mack Smith is cited as one of the sources.
What are some of the possible reasons?
According to Ciano's diaries (fascist Italy's foreign minister), the plan to push for the occupation of French territories was scrapped after the disappointing performance of the Italian Army on the Alps during the last days of the French campaign.
Basically the idea was to not upset the Germans by making the armistice negotiation with the new French government more difficult.
The question would have been brought back if an actual peace conference ever took place.
@@OrsoBart7734So, in other words, although Mussolini gave a big speech about "needing only a couple hundred men to die in order to sit at the negotiation table ," he understood that his lacklustre performance would only make Vichy more bitter if he acted all high and mighty and demanded too much.
Frank nicosia in “Nazi Germany and the Arab World” contradicts this, Hitler never gave permission and resisted the idea of handing Vichy territories to Italy
Of course the Italians themselves would claim that Italy could have taken more territory but didn't out of the kindness of Mussolini's heart. In reality this makes no sense, the real reason is that Italy's performance against France was so terrible that massive annexations couldn't be justified.
I'm a subscriber from Tunisia and Thank you for this video!
There's something else you didn't mention, Tunisia was technically a kingdom and the Tunisian monarchs remained as nominal rulers/governors during the French rule, Even during the Axis invasion and occupation the monarchy stayed and the Tunisian monarch, aka the Bey, declared neutrality during the war.
A bey isn't a king you shawarma peddler.
Albeit, a mere puppet
@@ryderninja1844 to a degree yes, but not entirely
@@ryderninja1844 In the international scene I'd say most definitely, but locally, the administration was not controlled by any other countries. It was Tunisian. Some people seem to forget that Tunisia was a protectorate, not a colony. Which meant that local laws applied and the citizens were subject to Tunisian law. Although France could at anytime overturn a rule or law. They wouldn't do it because it's legitimacy in Tunisia was reinforced by the Monarchy. If they lost the support they would most probably lose the protectorate.
This guy did not even bother looking up some references from the country he is making the video about.
Try searching for sources coming from Tunisian historians to get the full picture.
Its a mystery because even if Italy wanted to administer Tunisia for themselves, they have bigger fish to fry and cant be bothered to administer it in the first place
Hopefully the wiki does remove those sources as they aren’t viable in the context of an Italian Tunisia
It has just been removed (i wasn't fast enough, someone beat me to it)
Update: the previous change was undone, i've currently opened a discussion on the wikipedia talk page, if everything goes alright, the reference is going to get removed in a couple hours at maximum
Please, DO NOT edit the wikipedia page if you do not know what you're doing, contrary to popular belief, one cannot just change something on wikipedia and expect it to stay, the change needs to be well supported.
Videos like this are what prompts people to make it happen.
@@Yuio_Quazunless it's political apparently
@@Yuio_Quaz yet the original sources were from before the occupation and were accepted anyways
@@Yuio_Quaz”well supported” is rather a want than a have
As a tunisian, my grandparents always gives my cousins and I stories about the french rule and german rule too, but NEVER heard italian rule or soldiers from him
My friend grandma she’s Sicilian from Tunisia the nation was under French occupation, but there was many Italians in the country
I am Tunisian and from what our family recalls, it was the Germans.
So thanks for including my country Tunisia
As far as I know: With the 1940 fall of France, French authorities in Tunisia immediately supported the Vichy regime, which continued to govern the southern provinces of France after its capitulation to German forces.
4:08 the territories controlled by Germany included Western Macedonia, and part of Central Macedonia. The rest of Central Macedonia, as well as Eastern Msceodnia, were annexed by Bulgaria. "Southern Macedonia" isn't a thing.
this is like a court hearing where both parents (France and Italy) wanted to claim caretaker of a child (Tunisia)
Meanwhile the child is just like "You guys know I'm also an adult, right? Like, I can run my own shit just fine"
Parents hhhhh Ridiculuous!!! Tunisia has an older history than both so called "Parents"
Shows the importance of actually going into sources when you read something sus on wikipedia
00:20 Wasn't the governor of Gabon pro-vichy? IIRC the Battle of Gabon inloved the Free French having to invade the place.
Good catch.
Yes. The governor of the neighouring french central Africa conquered it
@@joshuafrimpong244Not neighboring, Gabon was part of Central Africa, the governor of CA basically suppressed a rebellion
There is a Tunisian italy tho
Tunisian here! A lot of brothers are suggesting digging into the Tunisian archives, and what's funny is that all the records from that period in the tunisian archive are talking about stupid things like tribal conflicts over water sources, land and cattle also some ceremonies and visits
The famous Giovanni MESSI
To be honest I thought the thumbnail was showing the borders of Albania instead of Tunisia.
Carthago delenda est
The vichy government was never gone, what are you saying. The germans did occupy the south of the country at one point, yeah, but despite military occupation France was still led by the vichy regime, Pétain and his government were still in power of all civilian matters
I always like videos like this because I feel like the Italian involvement in world War II is often times glossed over. I'm not sure how it's taught in other schools but going to public school here in America. We always talk about the Japanese and the Pacific Theater and also the Soviet and American advance on the Germans. Mussolini is normally glossed over
Our grand parents remember actually interacting with german troops at that time in the south and center of tunisia, and many said that they where kind (believe it or not) as they treated tunisians as humans when french soldiers did war crimes at a daily basis
The French and Belgian border in that map that shows the supposed Italian Tunisia also seems to be wrong.
Ok italian here and this is my vision:
To fully understand the situation in Tunisia during World War II, we must first examine the political and military context of Italy in 1942. Italy’s autonomous military campaigns-including those in Greece, the French Alps, East Africa, and Egypt-had all ended in failure. These defeats not only eroded the trust Germany had in the Italian armed forces but also shattered the illusion of an invincible Italy among its citizens.
By 1942, the war efforts of Germany and Italy had effectively merged. Italian units often found themselves taking orders from German commanders, as Germany increasingly dictated the course of the war. This dynamic became even more pronounced following the armistice of 8 September 1943, with the implementation of Operation Achse and the establishment of the Italian Social Republic (RSI). Many Italian units, such as the 10th MAS, aligned themselves with Germany, later reorganizing under the RSI's National Republican Guard.
Returning to the central issue of Tunisia: during my education in Italy, both in school and university, it was often taught that all Axis-conquered territories in North Africa were considered Italian. This narrative included not only the territories seized up to El Alamein in Egypt but also the portion of Tunisia that came under Axis control following the fall of Vichy France. However, in reality, the Germans held the commanding authority in Tunisia, as they did in most of the Italian occupied zone in late 1942
So Italian Tunisia was ever a thing? Well... Kind of? At least de Jure; the reality was a German Military occupation as most of the map tell
without context: SIGMAS UNITE!!!!!!
one can also lean on social history more. if the italians didn’t effectively occupy the region, then what does a color on the map have to do with it
Vichy seems like the most poorly understood part of the war for most WW2 buffs.
If it wasn't for Charles De Gaulle, France would be seen as the side flipper they were.
I am tunisian, and I can confirm that that there was no italian administration of tunisia at any given time during the 20th century
Does Sicily count?
Tunisia was under Vichy even after Case Anton (government existed) but an error is saying Rommel occupied Tunisia. He didnt; the German units air lifted there werent under his command at all and wouldnt be until February 1943 when Heeresgruppe Afrika was formed.
Wikipedia once again proven to be crap
I have too much free time that i also notices that 1 year ago but thought it was a lack of info in English, good video!
My great grandfather never came home for WW2 to his family in Catania. Rumor is he met a woman and had a child in Tunisia. We found out the truth, he died of syphiliis in the late 40s.
Italy did a terrible job in Egypt ❌
Italy overall led a good offensive military campaign, considering it was an agrarian country with mostly infantry against the UK who was at that time considered to be the most powerful country in the World ✅
Also the Afrikakorps didn’t take control, Rommel did as he was the highest officer there and Graziani failed in continuing the advance as he didn’t yet fully understand (like most generals) Blitzkrieg doctrine. Also German tanks and new Italian tanks were given to the Italian Army in Africa, which still remained much larger in terms of manpower than Afrikakorps.
3:58 we got Corsica. It actually was a spontaneous action, as the Italian soldiers just sailed to Corsica without any order being given from the High Command. Reports show that the Corsicans had mixed opinions, with some welcoming the Italians, some indifferent and some staunch antifascists.
Also the Greek (and other countries) occupation thing was shared as (obviously) Germany had 5 times more manpower overall than Italy.
Occupation ≠ annexation (the USA and USSR both occupied significant portions of Europe, that doesn’t mean they were under actual American or Soviet administration. The annexations were all decided at the peace table AFTER the war).
GOD FORBID
Giovanni Messe
If we just want to focus on the larger narrative of WW2 maybe not important. But all details are good to fact-check when it comes to history
I always heard stories about how the Germans and Americans fought near my grandmother's village back in the day. Also other stories from my friend's family on how the Germans treated them with respect unlike the French and how the Americans gave them chocolates.
But let me tell you something as a Tunisian. Tunisia was no else's property but our own, whether it's a colony or a protectorate it was a country shackled by occupiers who'll soon have to leave through any means. a Boiling pot ready to pour open and deliver the taste of liberation.
up
This was less than 100 years ago and they already forgot who it belonged to?
They were probably too busy to bother deciding in the first place. They'd sort it out later and then everyone would agree that it retroactively counted in the beforetimes. But later didn't happen so the beforetimes went unaccounted-for.
Probably because it was so brief and such a minor thing.
This channel was a major part of my childhood and helped me learn a lot of history. Glad to see your still making videos.
just a small correction, the name of the Italian General (7:52) is Giovanni MESSE, not Messi.... keep up the good work!
btw that's not the real map of Tunisia at that time.. Before the Independence the north west of Algeria and the east of Libya were part of Tunisia, they have many relatives in Tunisia and almost the same dialect.
Surely this isn't that hard a question to awnser?
My Gramma probably could. I am sure there are still some people who remember that time.
I don't understand why most of the comments seem to understand what happened as if they were history scholars or a part of their history, while I am Tunisian and I have never studied this in my life or read it in a book?? Did you study this in your schools? Strange.
The title says it all
If Tunisia was owned by the Italians
When talking about germanía , British isles or any territory in white Europe, you talk about occupation but when talking about Africa, Asia or Latin America you talk about owning as if when conquered nobody lived there or as if those people had no right to own land
This mentality continues to this day
Drex?
great great grandpa was a part of the tunis italian population!!
So according to Wikipedia (I know, I know...) both in English and french the french governor of Tunisia at the time was a man called Jean-Pierre Esteva. It is said that he stayed in office due to orders from Petain and Laval until May 1943. So if this is true Tunisia was under Vichy administration to the end of the African campaign. They name a french book about french persons in Tunisia 1930-1950 as a source.
This is interesting. This would mean that even though Case Anton abolished Vichy France, Tunisia was still under the old management. This would support the argument Emperor Tigerstar has made in the video, that the post-Anton occupation was a hastly and diffuse thing which could be best described as "Axis-occupied" rather than German or Italian occupation.
@@Minuku42 Case Anton did not abolish Vichy France, this whole thing is based on this misconception in the Anglo world on french history and it's kinda hilarious.
@@Minuku42 Case Anton didn't end the Vichy government. It remained the de jure civilian government of France right up until Allied liberation.
Then in truth, Case Anton has the Axis neighbors militarily occupy the Vichy state and later transferred their rump government into southern Germany later.
For Tunisia, this meant that business in the intruded colony, while usual, has been absorbed into an encroaching warzone
As a tunisian , i can tell you that’s true
This is a good lesson on being skeptical about sources, rather than just assuming that a statement with a cited source must have a good source
The ellipsis in the italian book "Le terre nostre ritornano..." Are not weird for an italian reader, it's common to use them in titles for dramatic effect
The Vichy government didn't de jure cease to exist after Case Anton; it was still technically the civilian government (for whatever that was worth) of occupied France right up until the Axis armies were driven out of the country. In fact, it set up a government-in-exile in Simaringen, Germany after the fall of Paris to the Allies. Apparently, the Vichy Resident-General of Tunisia, Jean-Pierre Esteva, remained in office in Tunis itself right up until 7 May 1943, only being evacuated literally as British forces were entering the city, and only a few days before the final surrender of the last Axis forces in Africa. So, technically, it very much seems it was Vichy French right up until the end
I know people across the world say things differently, it's not that deep. But the way Americans say Tunisia!!!
You make war and we pay bills
Tunisia was never occupied by italian goverment. The occupation was represented by french "مقيم عام" ( I don't know the exact traslation) all of them represented France in Tunisia and there was no gap between 1881 up to 1956. The French kept administrating the colony through Vichy France. You need to go back to roman empire after Carthage lost the punic war
The moral of the story: Don't trust Wikipedia as a source.
Italians ownes many bakeries in Tunisia
Maybe the Tunisian national archives will give something ? or it could also be in the french ones.
I'm not sure about the archives, but as a Tunisian who has heard stories from older generations who lived through that time, the general impression was that the Germans were the ones in charge. Many Tunisians (though not all) seemed to support them and viewed them as liberators from French occupation. There's a well-known Tunisian TV series about that era it only depicts interactions with the Germans and the Allies (mainly the French and some British/Americans pilots) but doesn't include Italians at all. This suggests that the Italians were insignificant in that contex at least from a tunisian POV .
italians came as imigrants before 1939 @@ndmb6333
Exactly my grandpa told me stories about it the French were in control versus the German which Tunisians supported .italians were not in control nor got the liking of Tunisians as they look at Italians as simple farmers harvesting in north tunisia not a super power compared to Germany
We can ask Hitler when he returns from Agartha, but we need to hurry up with tnd and tkd for that.
I think you forgot to look up information beyond the internet and never looked up what elderly Tunisians say
it was under italian administration during at year 10
I'm Tunisian, lemme ask my 81 yo grandpa real quick
Anecdote: the Vichy regime officially ceased to exist only in 1944, and officially kept control for these 2 more years over police, administration etc... although it was entirely occupied or under Allied campaigns for oversees territories
I can call it the 'Italian Dream,' haha. I'm Tunisian, and I've never heard of Italy administering Tunisia, not even for a single moment. Tunisia was a French-occupied territory from 1881 to 1956. During that time, there was a Beylic regime-a puppet monarchy controlled by the French administration. The Germans tried to influence the Bey and take control during World War II, but they failed.
Good news, the Wikipedia page on the Fourth Shore in English has been reduced to four sentences that seem mostly fascist propaganda-free (though now citing only a single, 1940 source).
it is France im Tunisian Tunisia declared independence from FRANCE not Italy and that happend in1956 20th of march and you are talking around that time..........
my great grandma was 11 when ww2 broke out. and she said that Italian rule was a disaster before she
d!ed...
as italian I never studied o never heard about italian tunisia.
Hello I am John Italy. I did own Tunisia. Thank you for reading
it's not protectorate in 1881 it's colonisation
5:24 Malta mentioned, ill go checkout this journal from the University of Malta might be interesting.
Edit: Also the title makes sense and is not cut off "Our land has returned..."
Tunisian here, brother this country went through turks, greeks, italians, the french, you name it. We don't even know who's actually in power rn lmao
Hang on, aren’t you a villain from warriors, by Erin hunter? If so, I’ll just call on scourge rq
Simple answer: Rome
Tunisian here and all i had to do to answer this question is ask my grand father. And to him this Italian thing is bogus since the french still had their colonial regime up and running and the occupation was understood by the population to be german. Resistance operation still targeted french intrests alongside germans and italians.
I'd rather Say yes ...not to hurt Italy's Meloni's ego and self-esteem.
Btw, I am Tunisian and we don't have a beef with Italy but we do with Rome: Annibale ad portam
Vichy France was not a puppet. While yes they had to pay an insane amount in war reparations as well as have half there country occupied, they where still fully independent that said no to Germany on various occasions, namely when Germany wanted frances fleet which lead to war breaking back out and vichy France being truly crushed.
Vichy France was in fact always legally at war with Germany, just in a state of armistice, with a formal peace treaty pending.
@Supahdenning never heard of that, makes sense though the treaty they signed is usually called an armistice