As I'm sure Lore (and I) would say... "I don't 'like' Star Trek. I LOVE it. and what I do not love, I do not accept into Canon." No points for whoever guesses the quote reference
the Federation structure can be summed up as " Starfleet the only game in town, but the dice are loaded, the cards marked and the dealer smiles ALL THE TIME "
Nationstate alternatives: Klingons, always at war with one another and ultimately less effective at war with other nationstates Romulans, always inciting war with other nationstates and possibly less effective at waging said wars Cardassians, small time Ferengi, you gotta buy your way into their market; success in that market is a for sale through a number of DLCs
Um, I think most people on Earth in the 21st Century would happily choose to live in the Federation instead of here. Twice the average lifespan? Excellent health, education, housing, transportation, etc. Plentiful food. Etc. Etc. Etc. (That's ignoring the interstellar wars that pop up every 10 years.)
Sisko & Dukat's dialogue in "Waltz" (where they crash-land on a desolate planet and Dukat finally admits he should've killed all the Bajorans) or Sisko's monologue in "Far Beyond the Stars" as Benny Russell being fired from the pulp magazine he was writing for are also up there.
They should have had *Eddington* surrender himself (to save other Marquis) and *survive* in a Federation prison, with a little rant at Sisko and Starfleets naivety as he's sentenced. And then when the Dominion War gets heavy he's pardoned in return for rejoining Starfleet and becoming a war leader, as he does have a lot of combat experience, especially in the Badlands. And he accepts after the Jem Hiddar massacre the Marquis. The dramatic possibilities of Sisko having to work together with Eddiington, who's now a vital officer in operations in the Badlands and in conducting hit and run raids on the Dominion. Eddington has the respect of other Starfleet, some of whom have the attitude that maybe, just maybe he was right all along - as now the Cardassians are at War with them. They are on the same side, and Sisko has to admit that Eddington is good at his job (he may even be a hero - what if Eddington swoops in and saves the Defiant one time?), but there's still bad blood between them. But Starfleet doesn't care, Sisko is ordered to work with Eddington. The character can be brought in when needed and then depart for another area of the War effort, or he could become a regular cast member that really 'stirs the possum.' Eddington could be the voice of _"Lore"_ (this one, not Data's bro) and the audience, blaming Sisko for provoking the War while not being willing to face up to reality. "You went into their territory, and yet you didn't realise....." And how do the other main characters view and get on with Eddington? Garrack might actually like him and respect his cynicism. He views Eddington as a realist, something that Starfleet lacks in his opinion. Dax might privately agree with Eddingtons view of Starfleet, but she's Sisko's bestie, so she has to take Sisko's side, while privately pointing out to Sisko that he has a point... Then there's Ezri Dax's viewpoint, remember her opinion of the Klingon Empire? Eddington is motivated by pure revenge for the Marquis, something that Kira and Worf can understand. What if Eddington is informed about Voyager and he knew the Marquis that were "lost?". And when he finds out about Tuvok being a Starfleet spy.... OMG, what if B'elanna and Eddington had been an item? Eddington is pragmatic when he finds out and ask Dax to go over his letter to be sent to Voyager, giving his blessing to B'elanana and Tom. "There's a war here, the odds of my survival are.... I'm a realist. And the chances of them making it back within a Human lifetime are... I want to make it easy as possible for B'elanna, so she can be happy with her partner. I respect your expertise in this area Dax, could you go over this and give me advice." Then the next Voyager episode B'elanna is shown reading the message, bitter-sweet smile, and then she takes it up a notch with Tom.
@@Blundabus1337How do you know that Ba Sing Se quote if you never watched past the first season? Ba Sing Se proper is only introduced in the second season.
Maybe it reflects how citizens behave during war. When resources are low, you are forced to get creative. But in peace time, when all your needs are met, your motivation gets cut in half.
It's like Starfleets ship development where before the Borg came Starfleet built the Galaxy Type Ships which were all based on the same Design and had Families living on the Ships, then the Borg Came and Starfleet changed their tunes and built borg buster ships like the Defiant
The idea of complacency also reflects how tyrannies form, to quote a former dictator; "The best way to take control over a people and control them utterly is to take a little of their freedom at a time, to erode rights by a thousand tiny and almost imperceptible reductions. In this way the people will not see those rights and freedoms being removed until past the point at which these changes cannot be reversed." A good real-world example of this was the social changes with post-9/11, the desire for security against an exterior threat causing a paranoia that almost longed to reject freedom just to remain safe
8 Reasons the Federation is run by people If you have individuals in any form of administrative authority, some level of corruption is inevitable. I think Star Trek acknowledging this only makes it more realistic and honest.
Exactly. This is why there is no such thing as a perfect society or perfect institution. Humans are not perfect. And it is also why there is always a need for checks on power. I think it's a hard pill for young people to swallow. The process of checking power never ends.
@@belkyhernandez8281 Maybe centralized power should not exist at all, Governments is where most mass murder happens, the greatest amount of theft (taxes), the restriction and control of millions of people. An anarchist society would be better as people could pay for services instead of being forced to pay for a monopolized service instead
@@voluntarism335 The problem with an anarchist society is that every single person fills the role of the corrupt boss on behalf of the government. The best outcome is something like The Culture. We create AI so advanced it's better at looking out for us than we are. Benevolent Skynet is the happy ending.
The problem with anarchy is nothing can get done. There are 100 ways to complete any task. 10 are great ideas 10 are bad ideas, but they all complete the task. The problem with an authoritarian idea is people tend to be selfish and stupid. It is a balance. You need a one chief but he needs push back on the regular.
Talk about the change in character.. Kira she went from absolutely HATING the Cardis as a Species from her personal an cultural experience to learning to pick, choose an being selective. By the end she even has sympathy for an protective over some. An ironic she helped liberate them from the ultimate authority centered governments in this franchise
Kira has some of the absolute BEST character development of any character in any of the ST series and gives us some of the very best moments where we see it. Just her change in Duet from ‘he is Gul Darheel no matter what evidence you show me and we will execute him’ to ‘No… too many innocent people have already died.” At the end.
@@Meinfuhrerhoffman totally agree she's probably one the most important characters to me of DS9. Her people an their culture an dealings with the Cardis are repeatedly, wether was meant to be or not, actually real important to THIS Trek show
She fought in a war where she found collaborators to be no better than the enemy. Over time she found out that her mother was a collaborator, and to save her she became one as well. Later she realized she became a collaborator in the Dominion war. She encountered Cardassians that opposed the occupation. She even became close to one of them simply because he thought she was his daughter and when he realized she wasn't he was willing to help her escape. Over the 7 years of DS9 she learned that not everything is black and white.
And I would say that Duet was the start of her evolution as a character. Coming to the realization that some Cardassians did not like what their government did but were forced into submission.
I'd argue that section 31 is one of the less creepy things about the Federation, mostly for the sole reason that such a tiny number of people have even heard of them. It means they aren't an instrument of terror, you can't fear something you've never heard of, do they undermine the ideals and values the Federation espouses? Sure, but then as this video shows it's more an ideal to try to live up to at best and an ego soothing self delusion at worst than any actualized reality.
And they weren't a self-serving power mad group out for themselves, in a way they were idealist just like the average Starfleet officer, it's just that they had their eyes uncovered and were pragmatic idealist who understood that the ends do sometimes justify the means. After all Sloan killed himself (apparently) in order to protect Section 31's secrets. That's not the act of a power hungry man. Section 31 would have been opposed to the coup attempt in Paradise Lost, prehaps they even quietly helped Sisko uncover it? Sloan was honest when he said that Section 31 does what it does so that men of good conscience like Bashir could be free to act to better the "world."
Additional: What if the Federation is only good because Section 31 gives them the luxury of being able to play good guys and win? And *without Section 31 behind the scenes,* making sure that Starfleet prevails, the Federation devolves into a ruthless dictatorship because that's what they need to survive. Being pushed to the wall with the threat of the Dominion War almost resulted in the Federation becoming a military dictatorship [Paradise lost], it was an _out of context_ problem for Section 31 as they weren't yet ready to protect the Federation from that (but their bioweapons lab got onto that). The alternate timelines with evil Human Empires are the result of what happened when Section 31 wasn't able to protect the idealist from _the viscous reality of the universe,_ and the idealist therefore weren't put in charge of the Federation. Section 31 are the deliberate enablers of Starfleet idealism.
That gave me food for thought, I know the Federation is not perfect and many Star Trek episodes and Movies does explore it. I wonder if there's an analysis of Captain Janeway's actions and decisions in apprehending the Equinox.
Personally, I think Janeway was insane. Remember she started out as a scientist -- I think she KNEW command wasn't her thing, but she got peer-pressured into it, and then dumped into a traumatic situation with no obvious resolution. She went a little crazy. Props to Kate Mulgrew for convincingly playing a character whose personality changed from episode to episode.
This video won't sit well with a lot of sci-fi fans. Now make a video of 8 reasons why the Imperium of Man are the good guys in order to reach peak controversy.
@@chloegoodwin2482 Number one: Imperium is willing to work with more xeno races than any other faction, thus they're the least xenophobic. Orks are KOS to tau but Imperium uses ork freebooters. Hell the Black Templar worked with Chaos at one point during the beast war. Number two: Imperium is honest. The Tau and Imperium have the same goals with galactic conquest, its just the Imperium is open about it. Number three: Most of the evil stuff the Imperium does is from the mechanicus and inquisiton, but if you remove those groups, the Imperium are more benevolent than the Federation, but the Imperium falls in a week. It's why guilliman didnt disolve the inquisition, they're needed for everything from genestealer cults to enslavers. Even the most corrupt and lazy inquisitor takes enslavers very seriously. Number four, last one for now because post limit: They're lead by a good guy. You know what Guilliman was doing during the great crusade? Working with Eldrad's corsairs. The dude is pure noblebright. You can argue that it's dumb how goodie goodie he and the ultramarines are, or that theres rumors of something bad he did in the past, but hes lawful good currently. Maybe not "the good guys" but I'd argue the least evil. edit: Imotekh's Sautekh Dynasty might challenge that, but he doesn't have enough lore to really make a video about. Sadly. Love that dude.
@@Blundabus1337 Number one: Working with aliens does not make you 'not xenophobic' if you still hate them. Least racist does not give you points. Number two: Being honest about being evil does not make you not evil. This is also not even true since the Imperium lies to their own people all the time using propaganda about how xenos and mutants are inherently bad and that humanity has a sole right to rule the galaxy ect. ect. Number three: "If you just remove these institutions it'll be ok - but also you can't remove them." You also forgot the space marines, the Ecclesiarchy, I mean basically every other organization in the Imperium including the Imperial Guard are corrupt and vile. Number four: The new guy in office is ok I guess? That doesn't really make up for the evil shit his faction is constantly doing to both their own people and outsiders. It'll take a lot more than Guilliman being in charge for a while to turn such an inherently flawed and bloated empire around. The fact that you'd argue the Imperium is 'not evil' is laughable at least and deeply uncomfortable at worst.
Try not to be an AI, either. Data is alive today only because Picard is a good speaker. And let's see... the M5... Vaal... the Landru computer... Nomad...
And she also may have been a trader for the Ferengi or bajorans and not a federation trader.. or she’s super rich.. or she’s one of the normies I discussed.. I chose my words carefully for this kind of counter.. I’m not gonna lie :p
@@LoreReloaded To be honest was it ever stated she's actually a Federation citizen? She went to a Federation jail, but that was sort of an international law situation. Maybe there's evidence I'm forgetting, but could she be a totally independent human?
I once made simpler arguments, going so far as to call the Federation aristocratic. My ultimate conclusion was the reason these arguments can be made is because of the lack of world building in Star Trek. How does their economy work? Is it Earth that has no money or the whole Fedration? How does their government work? How are Federation counselmen and president chosen? Star Trek has been so focused on Star Fleet we don't know how the rest works.
@@JadeFenix "And if you grew up in a society that has no money, wants or needs, how does one understand latinum? Or the Latinum based societies and cultures?" Or to put it another way, if you grew up in a family that has so much money, generations of your family will never have wants or needs, how do you understand workers needing money to survive? How do you understand struggling to buy food or pay bills? All you understand if being as proftiable as possible and when one of the bigest drains on profit is the cost of labour, well...
@@GeoNeilUK well said. I love DS9, but something seemed to be missing culturally. The federation staff easily accepted and integrated themselves with Quark's business. I know I might be over thinking it, but culturally the federation and the ferengi are oil and water, they definitely don't mix. And here on DS9 it happened so easily?
Some of these are easily explained by reasons other than corruption. We mostly fallow the fleet flagships, which would not be policing core systems. Their goal is also to make contact and establish relations with new planets and study new phenomena. They retconed the no money thing and in all economic systems you’re going to have areas that are more productive than others for various reasons.
As much as I hate the concept of money. Its a necessary evil. If we got everything we wanted we would be bored and empty. A living wage challenge you and makes you happy when you can afford things you want. You need a bit of sadness to create happiness. I'm not a greedy capitalist who would wish to arrest people for cutting even a cent of my profit but I feel like I'm being a moderate.
Retconning away the “no money” aspect of their society opens a huge economic can of worms - you see, money exists as a means of rationing limited resources but the Federation has supposedly eliminated material need which calls into question why they suddenly have money at all! When you have replicators that that produce a nigh unlimited supply of goods (energy being the only limiting factor - which is trivial now due to things like dilithium reactors and artificial black holes that can easily be harnessed for power), what’s the point in having a rationing system? This universe has gone long past its expiration date and is now swimming in contradictions…
@@wilberwhateley7569 i feel like it's like star wars. They had cool concepts at the time but as they get more creative things don't make sense anymore (like just ramming ships into each other with full jumps)
@@thewhitewolf58 I'm sorry, but we haven't had any "Star Wars" in a long time - what exists today is "Disney Wars" and it's essentially its own separate franchise.
It's worth pointing out that Trek covers hundreds of years worth of history, so it is more than likely that the Federation changes its politics over time, from Government to Government and as the people's wants and desires change just as much as they do in real life. It's often overlooked, but the Federation becomes more obviously hard line after Wolf 359, but also after TNG season 1's episode 'Conspiracy' where it's said most of Starfleet's top brass was wiped out. Likewise in TOS, this is a time where most of the top Captains and admirals had fought in the Klingon war and at a time when the Klingons were becoming more organised, so again we see that Starfleet and the Federation's structures are reorganising to react to the struggles and threats they currently or recently face.
Pursuit of Money may be gone, but what of the other currencies people have used over the years and centuries? Honor, Favors, Love and good marriages, crops and skilled hands, Protection from enemies. So Yes, The Federation does use a kind of Currency, that of Prestige, of Nobility and recognition in the eyes of the Federation. Each planet competes for it, hordes it, does everything they can to be looked upon with favor or Interest by the Core functions of the Federation. They use technology like a set of competing craftsmen, words like dueling swords, discoveries and accomplishments like war trophies and tribute from foreign lands. An army of Dueling Poets and philosopher's, marching to the tune of their own self-satisfaction. To say nothing of their actual soldiers' accomplishments in settling disputes, Armed Diplomats as it were.
Add to this Picard's line to Lilly; "the pursuit of money is no longer the driving force" this isn't that there can't be capitalists, within a society with a post-scarcity economy there are always going to be outliers like Harry Mudd who will seek to gain money for no other reason than because either they can or to prove themselves. Paris states in "Dark Frontier" that after money went the "way of the dinosaur" that Fort Knox was turned into a museum, but even without hard currency they'd still have some form of 'exchange' just to interact with other races/factions given Sisko's attempt to keep his actions with Grathon Tolar aboard DS9 secret and Quark's response; "every man has his price"
Simple: power corrupts. The government of the federation is vaguely defined in the canon but we do know there’s an executive (the president) and at lest some kind of legislature. It can also be assumed that a judiciary of some type exists, as Starfleet has its own version of JAG, implying there is a civilian court system. This seems all to familiar to citizens of the USA and it’s representative democracy, which is of course prone to corruption with career politicians and their symbiotic relationship with lobbyists. The federation doesn’t seem to have the motivation of profit as the driving force of commerce and bureaucracy, instead seeking a more egalitarian model of cooperation in an economy of abundance. This type of model would seem to not be prone to corruption since individuals could not amass wealth or power in any meaningful way other than achieving prestige in career oriented accomplishments in science, technology, exploration, etc., with any and all advancements freely shared with all member worlds. But what we see during the Dominion war and later indicates not corruption in the federation, but the corruption of Starfleet with its monopoly on military power. Starfleet boasts of being a peace keeping non-military force while blatantly conquering territory when given the excuse of an aggressive adversary as well as fielding ‘exploration’ vessels with advanced weaponry and manned with crews in an obvious military hierarchy. And when a true existential threat knocks of the Federation’s door it’s Starfleet that basically declares martial law, enforcing draconian search protocols and invasions of privacy. The federation government seems powerless to stop this behavior, and is perhaps grateful to be relieved of the burden of attempting to negotiate with true rivals or more powerful space nations.
“All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to the corruptible.” - Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune
@@KristoffDoe this is why anyone given power should at the very least be vetted with personality testing and interviews by recognized psychology professionals. Unfortunately this will never happen since the psychos already have been in power for generations and will never put any mechanisms in place to keep them from power. So I guess the real answer is no government. Anarchy. Everyone is sovereign. Except for the pathological, those folks need therapy and meds.
Starfleet has historically been a joint military & exploratory force. Also, Starfleet cannot declare martial law. It is subservient to the Federation president & council. When has the Federation leadership been powerlessness to stop Starfleet? We have seen Picard disobey orders from the Federation Council that he thought were illegal and then brought evidence for the wider government. However, we have not seen Starfleet perform a straight-forward successful coup. Most of the Federation worlds still have their own governments and militias.
The Contradictions in the Main line Trek do make it worrisome. At least for TNG era. TOS didn’t explore as much of the domestic Federation What we do see seemed a more hands off Starfleet with more of a clear acceptance of it’s Military role. What we see of Kelvin timeline seems to show a somewhat more confederated Federation with separate Local law enforcement and other agencies. Yet it started the line of mixing to much TNG into TOS.
There's also the inherent contradictions between what Roddenberry envisioned and his writers envisioned. Roddenberry was a champaign socialist, and viewed the federation as a kind of communist utopia, while his writing staff saw the federation as "America in space". They were writing the original series with the federation as an analogy to the USA, while Roddenberry was writing the series with the federation as the USSR. You didn't see too much of Roddenberry's vision till the 70's, when he started adding things to the setting like the whole "we don't have money in the future", "the federation takes care of every citizen's needs", and other things. Writers ever since then have been trying to deal with the contradictions of the federation, how it's supposed to be a cashless, welfare utopia, while also having it's own military, and somehow not being a heavy-handed authoritarian state that controls all aspects of people's lives.
@@joshuarichardson6529 I think it's easy to see the "America in space" idea when comparing the Federation and Klingons against each other as the Klingons and Romulans each served as analogs to the USSR and Red China before "Undiscovered Country" showed the destruction of Praxis as more of a post-Chernobyl Ukraine/Russia. Once Enterprise began the idea of Starfleet/United Earth was clearly leaning into a form of pre-TOS "America in space," especially during the Xindi arc acting as an analog to the 2003 Invasion of Iraq
I wonder if Star Trek would have benefited from pulling a SWTOR and having not just another alien empire, but a powerful, organized human state forming in the periphery that actually opposed them for the reasons mentioned as well as embracing elements of human life (ex. conflict, acquisition of wealth, religion) that the Federation claimed to evolve beyond. Have them form not just a military thorn in the Federation's side, but also an opposing vision, maybe forming a society along the lines of what Julius Evola would have had in mind (eg. very hierarchical, very religious, far less pacifistic, yet emphasizing that embracing these elements is as much about embracing transcendent value than any transient advantage) instead of Roddenberry.
Another interesting possibility is a civilisation of Humans that go fully into genetic engineering _but_ have learnt from the mistake of the Augment's designers - that is the flaws with unrestrained aggression and megalomania that were mistakenly programmed in the original Augments. They are obsessed with self-improvement, modification, and reaching their full potential. They have also improved the Human psychological makeup so that they aren't as emotional and irrational and had natural self-control - what a Vulcan wishes Humans were like. These are 'Julian Bashir' supermen, not 'Khans'. Throw in a little _Dune_ deep thinking and mental training (developed from various backgrounds including ancient Human, modified Vulcan mental disciplines, and others, including the rules of acquisition... Androsian SuperSoldier training?) and they are Poet Warriors and philosophers who are benevolent superhumans, not would be conquerors (at least they don't plan on provoking the Federation, they are very pragmatic - they may even decide to occasionally help the Federation without being asked, with a ends justify attitude). _But they still know that they are better._ It would be a moral quandary for the Federation. They are effectively banned under Federation law, but they are outside the Federation so it shouldn't matter.... yet they are (were) human. And it would not be a good idea to start trouble with them. And how to react if they have a Knight Errant aspect to their culture, and individual and small groups of Superhumans are wandering around righting wrongs and all that, in their _cloaked_ hero ships? Or they could be carving out their own little Empire while not provoking the big boys. And being very effective peacekeepers in their sphere of influence. Or they could be both?
@@JayV98 True, but they're aliens whose entire shtick is these traits. This would be an opportunity to form a proper enemy from within Humanity/the Federation's own ranks. In addition, if again we go with Evola's ideas, it would differ from both in that such a drive would not be for external factors such as honor or profit, at least as the baseline or ultimate goal, but for as means to achieve self-evolution into something more through acts of heroism or intellectual/spiritual development.
No system is perfect. And the writers are living in the here and now. In the best written episodes, the big difference between the Federation and modern real world governments is that the Federation is sincerely trying. When Federation politicians and officials get things, wrong, it is because they were self-righteous and misguided. When real world politicians get things wrong, it’s because they’re greedy and shortsighted. One is better than the other, even if both are bad.
we only see the greedy and shortsighted politicians in the real world, the good people in government get overlooked by the media, because bad news gets more views then good news. We don't see our governments trying, but they are.
no goverment is perfect so the federation being run in an authoritarian style is probably the system that the federation sees as the best way to enact change immediatly, sure it isnt a perfect system but it is a system that works when used for the benefit of the federation though it is very corrupt (starfleet is also corrupt look at the bad admirals it had in its admiralty)
How can the enlightened future be enlightened if it allows the unenlightened run it. Every meritocracy will inevitably become an aristocracy because the people in power will secure a the means of obtaining merit for themselves. In the startrek universe. Starfleet hand picks and grooms it officers to follow its philosophies and doesn't leave room for other agencies to rival it in power.
While you have many valid points, it makes perfect sense that a military installation would require that everyone who enters that installation should be properly identified.
I couldn’t agree more.. they wanted blood draws based on someone because of their lineage and who they were related to with siskos dad.. he wasn’t on any installation
And this vid sounds a lot like the verse of Firefly/Serenity What was that? I do the job & I expect to get paid...Jane do not bring any grenades this time...
He had to convince enough Starfleet members that there was an existential threat to the Federation, and overthrow President Jaresh-Inyo as well. Vice Admiral Leyton is in Starfleet, but he was not in charge of Starfleet.
Starfleet has shown it's many attitudes toward Captain's and Federation Officers who wanted to do the Galaxy some good. And then there were parts of the Federation who just randomly allowed beings to possess them, and it becomes a coverup, set up. Even Admirals showing that they know better. Or they show their high and might against Jean Luc. Look at Section 31, main franchise that the corruption grows. Starfleet has shown it's needs more than the many, more than concerned willing Starfleet commanders. Like Spock, for instance. Being left behind on a planet that was created by a deranged criminal. Kirk's son even shown fear that Starfleet may use the Genisis Device as a weapon. Look at how Jean Luc is pushed around and bullied by Admiral Nechayev. The countless evidence shown of High Command key members in the Admiralty abusing their power to get a job done because of fear over war and domination. Like the higher ups who pressed Kirk into escorting and protecting Chancellor Gorkon, The Admiralty took the Enterprise away from Kirk twice because he got caught up into something that they wanted to hold for their own measure and power. Kirk and the crew literally went through all of the heroism and battle and prevented an assassination to instigate more war with the Klingon High Command. I feel like there were more people within the Federation that wanted Kirk to pay, and that meant taking the Enterprise away from him as a "screw you" when he ruined their coverup. They call the Constitution Class Enterprise old? They still kept the Excelsior classes running and they were built in Kirk's time just as the Constitution. There is so much evidence out there in every series. Even with the temporal police. It's like when a Commander or certain ranks want to do something best for the good, Starfleet is stopping that because of their Prime Directive. They weren't doing too much by saving Voyager in any means necessary. All of that high tech within their own and Section 31? This is basically how I see and feel when it comes to the Federation.
On the matter of the Government, During DS9, I've always wonder if the President, who said he was nominated ran in a planetary and then interplanetary election. Of course, I imagine he sat on the Fed Council, then the planets list if they want their member to stand, though then are they backed by other councillors - such as pre-1963 Conservative/Britain, or have an interplanetary election, like the US, with either points or sheer numbers. Though, of course, Star Fleet would surely secure their interests.
And they’re referenced regularly. The reason we’re seeing mostly bureaucrats, well-connected scientists, and other high profile individuals is… you don’t just hitch a ride on any old starship just ‘cause. You have to have a connection to Starfleet or UFP operations. Everyone else is riding the space-bus.
Most people really don't need to travel in space. Planets are big, and contain most of what you need. Space-travellers would be primarily military, diplomatic, and large-corporate, simply because your average person simply has no motivation to leave his planet.
"You could live your best life within its gilded cage, provided you agree with the group ideology that is, so that's not really a bad thing." And with that, you've described the world as we have it now, the world that every series of Star Trek has told themselves they're far in advance of every chance they get, from the point of view of the richest, most privileged members of that community. Outside of that gilded cage, where the majority of the world's population (and therefore it could also be argued, the Federation's population) live, the Federation and Star Fleet, would be viewed the same way the protagonists of Farscape would view the Peacekeepers or the protagonists of Blake's 7 would view the Federation.
I was wanting to write something smart aleck as is my wont to do, but I'm feeling down and just don't have the creativity today. I hope you're doing well. It's a pleasure to hear your voice, I enjoy your videos and they make my day just a bit better. I appreciate you.
Hey, did any of the shows ever fleshout how people got genetic engineering technology progressed enough by the 80s/90s to have the Augment Program?@@LoreReloaded
All you need to know is that, when given the choice, Sisko decided to retire to Bajor, about as far from the center of the Federation as you can get. 😁
From what we've seen so far, aside from Earth, or Federation citizens that reside on space outposts and colony world, the average Federation citizen has little to no interaction with the Federation. Would the average citizen on Bolias, Vulcan, Betazed have most of their material needs provided by the Federation or by their own planetary government. Also to the average citizen, traveling through the stars is probably as rare as it would be for a 17th century European to travel overseas. It could be centuries (or millennia) for it to be like Star Wars where space travel is common for the average citizen. And even in the Star Wars Old Republic, we haven't seen ownership of space vehicles be as commonplace as automobile ownership is to modern day Americans.
True - giving private ownership of spacecraft powered by antimatter would be insane. Any terrorist group or a crazy rich person could take out a continent full of people just by ramming his ship into it and exploding it. Star Wars gets around this by using far less powerful ships - their civilian ships aren't flying bombs.
It seems to me the Federation, beginning with TOS, was built on trade and commerce. Merchant shipping needing protection would have led to the formation of the 'star fleet'. Are you suggesting there was a government take-over before Leighton's coup attempt?
It always cracks me up when everyone says the Federation doesn't use any currency. Watch Star Trek 2, the scene where Dr. Marcus is giving her "Genesis Proposal" to the Federation Council. There is a line in there, "Should the Federation choose to fund this proposal to it's logical conclusion." Not support, supply, assist, but the word fund. Unless language changes a lot more than one would expect, that means the Federation uses some form of currency.
“The federation is a Homo sapiens only club” -ST: the undiscovered country From the 23rd century Klingons perspective thats not wrong, with starfleet command and federation HQ located on earth.
Oddly enough, the reason the Earth was chosen as the seat of power for Starfleet and the Federation originally is that it was central to the new federation, the planet closest to the homewards of the Vulcans, Andorians, and Tellarites. I'm sure that's changed as the federation has grown larger, but it's not easy to move a capitol somewhere else.
My friends and I, watching the Star Trek shows back in the day did indeed feel that the Federation, at least earth, would be a great place to visit, be we couldn't be sure we'd want to live there. If nothing else, I did get the impression of 'new-speak double talk' in espoused philosophies. Starfleet not having 'warships' being a key one. That's stated again and again in both 23rd and 24th era settings as starships are exploratory vessels, yet have sufficient force to at least counter most empires' battlewagons. Likewise, various movie novelizations clearly suggest that Federation security and intelligence gathering is no joke, long before the introduction of 'Section 31'. I've gotten the idea that it's very important to espouse Federation talking points if you want to move ahead in your career. I wouldn't be too surprised if there are sticks against 'Wrong-Think' as well.
When it comes to Means of Travel I wouldnt expect every individual to have a warp 5+ capable ship, just like not everyone nowadays has a jet. They probably have impulse to low warp capable ships for intersystem travel, but say a human wanted to go on vacation to Rigel, then they would need to book on a transport ship headed there. If they wanted to go to Mars, then they could take their own impulse ship similar to a shuttlecraft. The reason we wouldnt see much of this in the shows is that the hero ships were often exploring deep space, far away from core Federation worlds. So of course the only ones they meet with warp are other races, the Marquis, criminals, or "wealthy" explorers.
It wouldn't make sense for the billions of people on Earth to each have their own ship. Also, an impulse capable ship is a potentially lethal missile that could cause massive damage planetary.
Can I just say the president of the Federation from DS9 is maybe the most pathetic president I've ever seen in sci-fi. But I can also totally buy it, and they really nailed it. Completely incapable of making big decisions while constantly lamenting the fact he has the job. I can totally see why people wanted to overthrow him, to be honest. It really helped the villains not just be black & white there, even if they ultimately went way too far.
I could see President Jaresh-Inyo being appropriate for a peaceful era of the Federation, but inappropriate for a war-era Federation. Good at getting groups to work together over time, but not at forcing decisions on others to get things done quickly.
@@toddkes5890 I don't know, he seems like the kind of guy who couldn't make up his mind on anything, even civil matters. "The Federation Budget is too much responsibility. I didn't want this job!"
"I have sworn eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." From the bridge plaque of the USS Yamato NCC-71807. United Federation of Planets
Not a fair comparison. The GR ruled over an entire Galaxy, the UFP rules over only a small area of one. The GR has millions of worlds and species, ST has a few major ones that have FTL abilities. The Naboo region alone, with one representative in the GR Congress - for 36 full-member worlds, over 40,000 settled dependencies (per wookiepedia) had one person in the GR congress. That's almost the size of the early Federation - all represented in the GR government by one person. That is just one sector, and not one in the inner core of the SW galaxy even.
Yes, when you take the recent current Trek as part of your argumentation, The Federation does become a rather dystopian version of Utopia which is one of the core reasons why so many of the old fans have left the building. It would be far more interesting to judge the Federation (and Starfleet) on the old classic Treks such as TOS, TNG, VOY, DS9 and even ENT. Even when limiting yourself to those, the case i feel can still be made and the result will be far more poignant due to the fact that the Federation in those series was still an Utopia and not the current Dystopia.
Discovery and Strange New Worlds are hardly dystopian. S Discovery is a biographical novel about an orphan who rises through the ranks and the friends, lovers, enemies she encounters. SNW is a show about self-sacrifice and doing right for the large good. Pike knows he will eventually suffer a horrific accident, but in doing so, he will save tens of lives. Pike spends his days as a dedicated, loving captain who encourages teamwork and camaraderie amongst his crew. Neither show celebrates war. Both shows eschew predatory capitalism for the Trek post-scarity, post-money philosophy. Simultaneously, neither show pretends life is perfect and without pain. But all participants come together create a better universe.
The positives hugely outweigh the negatives. I do agree the power of the admiralty is a flaw but that aside The Federation is a far better option than other empires.
Keep in mind that I'm not disagreeing with the thesis, but I'm thinking about what you said about travel restrictions. Somehow the Hansens acquired an Aerie-class science vessel, which is roughly 7-10 years old, to go off on what most in the Federation saw as a 'Wild Borg Chase.' They didn't seem wealthy, and (iirc) it seemed as though they weren't on some sort of Federation Science Council-approved research mission. It doesn't seem as though they were criminals, just 'mad xenobiologists' in a way. Like I said, not disagreeing with the thesis, just thinking about counterexamples to that one point.
I would completely agree with these assessments of the Fedration, but I would add that most of what we see is probably very clever propaganda, mostly intended to show the lower classes (that used to be the middle class before factories and farms were replaced with replicators) what life is like in Starfleet. It shows them, in a fantastic form, what Starfleet does, and gives them a glimpse of a better world, one which the Federation would like them to believe exists. Of course, none of this is real, and the best defence of this is just how much technobabble and handwaving the show expects the viewer to swallow. The excuse for the amount of farcical solutions to problems is that humanity as a whole is so advanced that even high-schoolers can solve engineering problems that no one has ever encountered before, and they can solve them in just a day or two. There is the objection that we do see several non-flattering actions taken by Starfleet officers, and that ruins the image; except all of those persons that do such things are portrayed as bad guys, undermining the Federation's ideals and methods. This fits the theory nicely, as easily understood bad guys are the core of the show's loop. In ToS, we have a 'monster of the week', or a monstrous civilisation, or an insurmountable engineering problem, and sometimes all three.; in TNG, we have the same thing, just with prettier visuals; in DS9, we have a different, more character-centric story, but still have the same patterns; in Voyager, again we have character studies and the old format, with the Borg a continual threat in the background; in Enterprise, again, the same old format, but with more time-travel. This can only really be explained, in universe, as pure fictionalised entertainment.
With regards to technological development in Star Trek, the big expansive empires have the majority of it. When they come across an independent post-warp power that hasn’t left their solar system. Starfleet is usually centuries ahead. When these new worlds join the Federation, they’re bringing little to the table. Starfleet sets up comms, industrial replicators, overwhelming the local scientists with a wealth of information coming at it. There is nothing they can possibly offer in return. There is a massive power imbalance between the core and border worlds. With regards to industry, there is a ‘guild’ system, which somewhat fits the Federation’s profile as a meritocracy. You have to be able to earn a place in the guild before they let you preform any of their regulated skills. Shuttles require a licence, but because cars don’t exist, it means that cities are walkable places and so you don’t one. It’s’ ironic that as the Federation grows, it becomes more localised.
I once wrote an argument that the Federation is a dystopia. As I wrote it it occurred to me that the reason the Federation can be so easily made dystopic is because we know so little about it. We've only seen the Federation through the eyes of Star Fleet officers. Imagine if the only thing you know about the US was from Star Gate. We know the Federation has no money but it also has credits which can be used like money. We know the Federation has personal property and people have businesses. We know land can still be owned and passed down family lines. We know there is a Federation counsel but not how they are selected or elected. We know Star Fleet acts is a policing, military, scientific, and exploration organization. They seem to have freedom of speech. Lastly humans seem to be the dominant species in the Federation fallowed by Vulcans. That's about it. With so little world building it is easy to depict the Federation as a dstopia.
Sisko really flipped a certain trope when he started talking about how earth is such a paradise. Others would've stopped there, likely not convincing whoever they were talking to out of their pov. Instead, he follows up with but out there, it's not a paradise. There's unfinished work. That's something about DS9 that you don't often see elsewhere. Where TNG tried to uphold the Federation's values in difficult situations, the Dominion War forced them to re-evaluate, with the results not always being positive.
It's hard to know how far this authoritarian spirit extends. This would seem a lot less like a guided cage if the charter provided guaranteed protection of your standard suite of rights--freedom of religion, freedom of speech, protection from unreasonable search and seizure, freedom of peaceful assembly, etc. The lack of a free press is a big hit to freedom by any measure, but press restrictions have been temporarily used even in countries like the USA (where freedom of the press is constitutionally protected) during emergency situations and wartime.
Differences between the core worlds and the outer worlds. You could be talking about Star Wars with that kind of statement with the other major struggle in that franchise (Sith vs Jedi being the better known) being the exploitation and deprivation of the Outer Rim vs the luxury and power of the Core. I could see a video topic on the similarities and differences between SW and Trek on this subject, it's probably where they come closest to each other.
A perfect Federation makes for boring stories, certainly over the run Star Trek has had. TOS/TAS are closer to quaint small town utopia, but there's still cracks because of course there are. Also to a certain extent if you were a Roddenberry/Berman-like figure policing all episode ideas across all series to make sure the Federation is (not portrayed as, but actually is) a coherent perfect utopia you would need to either dive really deep into how or hand wave away every other episode (which does happen).
I think there are two things that is different from the a typical authoritarian regimes. There is diversity of the highest degree in every department and nepotism doesn’t seem to be a problem at all.
I agree with you that the Federation government is a semi-comunist organization that owns almost all means of production with (hopefully) limited corruption. The diminishing benefits as you get further from the core worlds is a result of the size of Federation space and practicalities of operating a society that spans thousands of light years. I don't believe the Federation would be motivated to restrict these benefits from spreading further from the center. But, any government system that would arise in our real world would almost certainly try to restrict these benefits and increase the control and power to a smaller and smaller group of elites at the expense of the general population.
I always wondered how people got land and property. Why did everyone not have a house in the mountains such as Kirk, or Picard's family having a large vineyard.
As long as human beings are concerned, corruption will NEVER be completely eliminated. Ambition, whether driven by greed or prestige, is still a major corrupting factor. And it's been present in even the earliest depictions of the Federation. The IDEALS of the Federation are noble, and the majority of its citizens hold them with reverence. But decision-makers are always vulnerable to the temptation of power that comes with position. Every time we see an Admiral or Commodore in TOS, somehow they were going to be a jerk. Same thing in TNG. They may not have been villains, but they seldom refrained from throwing their weight around in a way that created undue tension. Now after things like the Borg attack and devastating battle of Wolf 359, and the Dominion War only a few years later, suspicion and doubt on the part of the people, AND the leaders of the Federation became more solid. Coupled with ambition, those with position were even more vulnerable to corruption. And in the years that followed, the people in leadership positions were replaced by people who had served on the front lines of the Dominion War, and had seen friends and colleagues die all around them. And the suspicion and doubt and ambition were still there amidst the anger. The result is people like Fleet Admiral Clancy, who looked at Picard with such disdain, under whose watch the Federation turned its back on Romulan relief efforts when the synthetic incident occurred, and the Federation became more xenophobic than the open society it had once been in peace time. The whole corruption element actually makes things more believable, as like I said, where humans are concerned, it will never be eliminated. It might just change form a bit, but it will always be there just below the surface waiting to erupt.
The Federation, with its flaws and necessary or excessive methods to defend itself, is still one of the best examples of a Communiat utopia on modern television in a world where modern sci fi is riddled by dystopia instead of utopia. I definitely applaud Gene and some of the older ST writers for doing their homework. There are plenty of references to Communism in Star Trek from Picard's description of Federation society in TNG:Neutral Zone to a Ferengi quoting Marx. I wish some of the more liberal writers of Star Trek remembered that.
"I prefer brains over brawn as well. I think it's a waste of effort to test our combat skills. It's a minor province in the make-up of a starship captain." - William Riker, TNG: Peak Performance During this episode, Federation was at war with Cardassia, and Starfleet, being it's military, was fighting it. Miles O'Brian, Enterprise's transporter chief is a veteran of said war. So Riker for some reason felt the need to lie to an admiral about the duties of a starship captain, or was badly misinformed about what Starfleet is. I am guessing the latter, because the former doesn't make any sense. And if someone can make it to Commander rank in a military organisation without knowing it is a military organisation, a lot of people have to be lying. The recruiters, the media, the members, the witnesses (if there are any).
Sounds like Starfleet is a authoritarian regime that got things right You are 100% depending on the government but There’s no crime No poverty Clean air No war Universal healthcare Sounds like a nice place If you didn’t have to worry about money, what job would you have?
I’d argue that the Maquis isn’t just a set of people with a different political opinion. They were armed terrorist cells who were antagonizing an enemy in the violation of a peace treaty in the wake of a brutal war. Their inclusion in the video I believe detracts from the point as *any* state no matter the structure would intervene to quash that kind of insurgency if only as a matter of international diplomacy.
They always seem to mention a Federation council, however their actions such as with the movie Insurrection don't seem to have any public input. That type of council strikes me as autocratic regime, where the good of the Federation seems to neglect transparency to the public when convenient, granted many governments do this in todays age, however with the Federation you never hear about a elected government or an election in general. The body politic of the Federation has likely an appointment system even at the local levels so no election is held, which likely means if you never severed in Starfleet the appointment to a higher office isn't likely.
This really makes me think... A lot. Gene tried to make a very positive outlook for society and culture. Coming up with the Federation I TOTALLY get why people would like to be in it. Serve in Star fleet or... Burn it all down. It makes me wonder if we will make things imperfect. Or can we come up with a good idea. However the problem is people governing the initial idea? Yes Star Trek and all other media is about stuff with conflict in it. Will we always need these injustices to operate?
In the TOS the economics of the time seem to be somewhat more conventional Ib the Pilot episode Pike talks about becoming an Orion Trader, in "The Devil in the Dark", Kirk tells the mining supervisor the they (the miners) are about to become embarrassingly rich, in Requiem for Methuselah there is a reference that Flint purchased the planet he is living on. and there are other references. It seems during the TNG series there was a transformation to someone's idea of the "perfect utopian" society.
The trombone is actually a key element of the 24th Century Goth Bluegrass Music Revival genre. Rich Ferengi Rimward of Rigel is Thomas Riker's newest hit. He mastered the style with his Sheliak cell mate, who serves as his lead screamo vocalist, at the Lazon 2 Labor Camp before they escaped on a Bird of Prey in the chaos of the Dominion War. @@badwolf66
Non-Starfleet citizens find it hard to get spaceships... Probably just as well as their engines are all essentially anti matter bombs if not taken care of properly.
It's not that unusual, how many Americans own their own Yacht? Only so many can be built in a year, and they are expensive to maintain. The federation does have civil transport (mentioned in several RPGs) that citizens can book transport on if they want to travel around the galaxy, and they also fund a massive freighter fleet (mostly automated) that's largely derided by people as "carb haulers" as they're not needed as much with replicators being commonplace. All this is mentioned in supplemental material (mostly the RPGs and guide books). Though the question of how people "get rich" in a supposedly cashless society is something Roddenberry never addressed. I'm assuming that money does exist, but the federation has a 99% tax on that income to fund a bloated welfare state. The "federation credit" is mentioned in several RPGs as a means by which players can purchase goods and services, but has never been confirmed on screen by any movie or episode. It's the only logical rationalization of this contradiction I can figure out.
@@joshuarichardson6529 A yacht is one thing, a yacht with an decent-sized RTG to provide steady power is another matter. Similarly I would expect the Federation to have a Fusion Freighter Reserve, where there are a lot of civilian cargo ships that use fusion engines to go to warp. Their engines are not as efficient or compact or as powerful as an antimatter engine making them slower, but the ability to manually close a valve and shut off the hydrogen flow into the reactor makes them much safer.
It became popular in the late 90s and early 2000s to say that Starfleet was a military dictatorship. Even though I was pretty sick of trek and not like it or watch it anymore by that point, I never really bought that argument. The overwhelming majority of what we see in the franchise is set on warships far out to see, so to speak. The United States is not a military dictatorship, nor is the united kingdom, but if the only perspective you got on, those countries was through the crew of warships, it would probably seem like a military dictatorship. Likewise, the Soviet Union was a dictatorship, and a pretty brutal one but things on their ships would probably not have seemed terribly different than things on American warships, because there is just a certain way things need to function on a vessel in order to keep it operating. I guess my point is that whether or not the federation is a dictatorship, it is not possible to tell based on just spending time with the crew of various military vessels engaged in extended detached duty. That said, I still don’t believe the federation is a dictatorship. Pretty much every comment in every episode of every show I’ve seen that has talked about the Federation and earth seems to indicate that it is some sort of federal Republic with a relatively high degree of autonomy within the individual member states. He Roddenberry himself occasionally described it as an organization that was looser than the United States, but tighter than the United Nations. Probably had better contemporary example would be the European Union. But personally, I do not believe it is a place I would want to live. There is some thing offputting about the prettiness and ideology driven day-to-day life of the citizens we meet. They tend to look down on things that many people in our modern society value. For instance, by the time of the next generation of human religions appear to be pretty much nonexistent, and yet religions have existed in every society in every corner of the world throughout human history. Sometimes they are more or less important than other times, but the ubiquity of the concept has caused most sociologists to believe that it is something wired into our neurology and not simple superstition. To be clear that does not mean that any religion is true, or that there is or is not a God, simply that human nature is wired in such a way as to accept the possibility of such things in a manner that cannot be explained by simple ignorance. At the same time we repeatedly see the Federation, willing to allow entire species of intelligent beings to go extinct because they do not meet the federations arbitrary standards of development. The planet that Wor’s brother was an anthropologist on, is allowed to go extinct because they have not developed warp drive. That is pretty goddamn inhumane. OK, not wanting to interfere with the natural development of civilization is tolerable, there are some societies on earth. We do not want to contact for various reasons, mostly their own safety, but if we knew they were going to die out completely going to a natural disaster, or whatever, we would try to save them as in obtrusively as possible. It is impossible to square allowing millions or billions of people to go extinct when you have the ability to save them with any concept of morality. Every country has some sort of secret internal security department. There’s nothing wrong with that as long as it serves the public good. Do you want some people that can track down psycho killers, and mad bombers before they have the opportunity to harm a whole bunch of people . Control of the media is not a good thing but we really only get a very limited exposure to that so it’s hard to say whether or not it is real or simply another mistake in perspective cost by our very small sample size. I have long felt that the federation maintains a monopoly on interstellar flight, presumably as a method of control. Which makes sense because with replicators honestly who needs trade? But if you ask me a thing about the Federation that makes it least appealing is that they have a kind of, “white man’s burden,“ attitude. They come into some new civilization that has beliefs or practices or opinions or values that the Federation does not share, and the Federation immediately condescends. It explains to them how stupid they are to do it that way, and how humanity has arisen to a point that it doesn’t need to engage in , whatever the hell it is that makes that culture unique. So they claim that everybody is equal, but it is obvious that they look down on any kind of culture that is not approved by the federation. Obviously, this is not the intention of the writers. It’s a convention of the format and any attempt to depict. A utopia is ultimately going to be a little creepy. Still and all I do not think I would like to live in the Federation
Finally someone who gets it. Now explain without replicators and unlimited energy that socialism is not a longterm answer to the worlds problems and Democracy with a free market is still the only answer that doesn't devolve into communism and a collapsed economy.
The main problem of the Federation in my opinion is Starfleet they have way more responsibility than a 'we aren't a military' military should ever have. A endless vault of potential Doomsday Weapons yet they can't beat a one legged man in a ass kicking contest 90% of the time. And somehow they created the most arrogant and corrupt senior staff in all of military history. Yes I know most of that is due to writing reasons.
This issue largely stems from two things (neither of which is unique to Star Trek or Star Trek fandom): the belief in a platonic ideal of a utopian society and a belief that the best form of governance is enlightened despotism. While by no means a universally held belief, there are a significant number of people who believe that the Federation is paradise, a utopia where all the problems have been solved. The real world isn't so neat and tidy; all choices have tradeoffs and two well-meaning, rational, intelligent people can disagree because they have different views on which tradeoffs are worth it and which aren't. There isn't going to be a single right answer for most problems and everyone is going to have to accept some tradeoffs that they wouldn't have chosen themselves. This doesn't fit with the idea of a neat and tidy utopia where everyone gets along and there's always a single right answer to any problem. In fact, the idea that there is an ideal society that you can achieve by following a set of rules... that sounds a lot like religion. And like with religions, Star Trek is rather quick to point out the flaws in other societies that prescribe a path to utopia, like the one in "The Masterpiece Society" or the Borg. Data said to the Borg "Believing oneself to be perfect is often the sign of a delusional mind."... perhaps he should have said that to those who believe the Federation is a utopia. It's fairly common among people with an interest in sci-fi to believe that the best form of governance is enlightened despotism. This is hardly unique to sci-fi; Plato and Aristotle were both deeply suspicious of democracy and Plato even went as far as to say that the ideal leader would be a philosopher king (which is perhaps a bit self-serving on his part). But this assumes that there is a perfect form of governance that is best at everything whereas the reality is that any system is going to come with tradeoffs and some will be better at some things and worse at others. In the contest of Star Trek, the enlightened despot is the Captain, who is depicted as an infallible paragon of virtue (though DS9 was willing to question this and depict Sisko as an imperfect man rather than a god which is ironic because he's the one who ascends to godhood). In short, there are those who believe the Federation and Starfleet in particular is utopia and that if it is a utopia, then they can do no wrong in which case authoritarianism is justified because an enlightened despot is the optimal form of governance. It's okay for Starfleet to effectively be a military junta because they know best anyways. But not everyone is going to agree with the "utopia" prescribed by Star Trek or accept the hero captain as enlightened philosopher king. Not everyone is going to agree that letting a civilization die to natural causes because the enlightened thing to do (per the Prime Directive) is to not interfere, even if that's SOP for Starfleet captains. From this perspective, authoritarianism isn't enlightened despotism but corruption.
Excellent video and really sums up what i have been saying about the Star Trek universe for years. It seems to be a mixture of Starship Troopers were service equals citizenship and the Chinese credit scoring system. If there is no money then control is lost so other things must be used to make people do what the collective want. San Francisco looks awesome here but it doesnt look like millions of people live there so who decides who has a house overlooking the bay. Who ends up in Blackpool's of the world. There doesnt seem to lot of elections going on so how is change managed. I think ST is the end game for the WEF.
Well the Maquis wanted to fight the Cardassians to the detriment of the Federation. Even just disowning them wouldn't have been sufficient to prevent a war.
They tried to disown them, the Maquis then started being killed by Cardassians.. They fought back.. The Cardassians went to the federation.. the federation chose the Cardassians over its colonists..
Lore reloaded loves Star Trek. He has a passion for it. I do not believe he has too much of a passion for the newer Star Trek's however, I could be wrong. LORE What do you think about discovery and the card seasons 1 and 2 and a good portion of strange new world what's your opinion on those mr lore. Of course! Who does like any of those seasons or series?
@@LoreReloaded totally and whether you want to call it woke or you want to call intersectional feminism and I know it's an old argument lore but truth be told that's what it is. I hate how they put Fathers down. They do it in that show if I recall correctly. And I also know for certain that they definitely put men down and sure men been putting women down since they were able to start doing something like that millennial ago. But it's just ridiculous how they're trying to push their agenda and they show it so vividly and in the open it just takes something away from the story writing of Star Trek and they're ruining the mythology of its. I hate that. Sorry I just went on a rant. Maybe that'll give you an idea for an episode of your channel
There was saying that "human were created with purpose to balance universe"，but down to the application level you maybe can saw gold mines with ancient activities from forced labour ,and of course reproduce is important to solve "labor shortage"issues. So beautiful words for whole picture is often different compare to the reality level.hmm
OMG ! Go to time mark 6:28 in the Production section and there’s a Ferenge in StarFleet Science / Medical Blues ! So what does that do to the whole Nog storyline ?
Authoritarian system can be more or less subtile depending on regime or governments . The more dangerous and insidious ones are the one where citizens think they are free and independent. Liberty , rights and Freedoms need maintenance and vigilance from those who seek to control or rule societies by authoritarian means .
Going by what we see is dangerous ground. Take space travel. We only see it when there is a problem. Though in DS9 we often see non-Star Trek ships at DS9. With this argument you could say that the Federation should make Holodecks and similar installations illegal as we see this technology often malfunction, being manipulated or incorrectly used (sometimes accidentally). It also allows the creation of artificial life, which is questionable at best, see Moriarty. But that would ignore thousands of these devices working without a hitch within the Federation alone. Does that mean that the absence of space travel means it is restricted? We can't really say, but it is doubtful. There is also the unanswerable question of how many want to travel. I would assume that many that want to see the universe would simply try Starfleet. I'm not saying the Federation and it's representatives haven't been wrong or haven't done questionable things, calling the entire organization corrupt could go too far. 'Could', not 'is'.
I kind of expect "Do anything you want, be anything you want" is highly tempered by Federation morality laws, in particular if you go from our real world. Like AI generators. The more of a socialist dictatorship you get, the more you see this kind of thing, too. There's a 99% chance you couldn't get a holodeck to recreate a modern horror movie for example. "Error, this includes inappropriate violence and language. I cannot comply. I am sorry, I cannot create Klingon enemies as this creates an offensive stereotype to Klingons. You have been reported to a councilor."
A interesting rival to the Federation would be a multi species society that is _more ethical_ than Starfleet. It could have been an interesting episode(s) for Voyager as they have to contemplate that maybe they're not the "goodest guys" around. Although it could always be because the founding species were actually inherently more ethical as species and not as morally 'complicated' as Humanity. They didn't have their major wars and abuses and greed and ect in their pre contact history. And so they don't need the checks and control measures that you _need_ in a society that is Human (and Vulcan and Andorian and) dominated. But then again maybe not, and they are just a different way of doing things? As for ethics, they may be *horrified by the Prime Directive* and view it _as a form of child neglect._ They think it's a duty to help benevolently guide pre warp species into becoming good Interstellar citizens... *and they are successful at it.* They could be very advanced in the social sciences and are able to interviene in a medieval civilisation and have it be a _nice_ interplanetary civilisation in a few generations, without having them nuke themselves or pollute their planet into ecosystem collapse, or just become a copy of their own culture. Or they could be less direct and more like the watchers, secretly manoeuvring the species to avoid the usual pitfalls, using a cardre of locally recruited agents (orphans that were rescued by transporters) who are raised to be the guardians of their species. Another option is something like the Interstellar Concordium [ISC] in Starfleet Battles, but that won. A peace enforced in a region by superior firepower and the pragmatic determination to use it with careful planning. And once again, rather bemused by Starfleets habit of standing on the sidelines until it becomes a major threat. If a Voyager episode, it could have ended in goodwill with the Delta Multi species society agreeing to disagree with the crew of Voyager but still accepting that Starfleet were trying to be good and were guided by ethics. And then after Voyager is gone we see a high level meeting in the multi species planning rooms, where they are discussing what will happen should the Federation and them ever get close borders. "We see in their cultural database here...." "We should develop strategies based both on pacification and cultral modification, depending on their relative level of power when we finally do have to coexist. Now the suggestion about joining them and becoming the dominate faction within their society is very interesting, and possibly the least risky and damaging, but it'll require a lot of social engineering and manipulation on our part. Still we should consider this as a option."
There is a mention of this in the original series. Gary Seven was a human agent for such aliens, in the episode “Assignment: Earth,” where Earth was the planet they were helping to transition from a nuke-obsessed civilization to a peaceful, space-based one. Basically Posadism without World War Three
I don't know what's the problem. If you prefer securttity, you can live on the core worlds of the federation or the most advanced coonies... If you want freedom, risk something... you can participate in founding a new colony. There are even some colonies with a specific way of life (no tech, other social rules/code, etc). Ultra consrvatives and wokies can have their own colony each and still be part of the federation. Or they can found their own independent state, close or not at all tied to the federation. Poverty gone, hunger gone, (internal) wars gone; ethnic, religious and other discrimination reduced to nearly zero... and also extremism. Star Trek shows us a world where humans already got their sh*t together and it gives a vague view on how to get the most important problems solved, hinting to the ownership of the means of production, unleashing the forces of production, pushing technology and science and always offering the option of cooperation even to hostile powers. I mean, recognizing where humanity came from... our present world, full of poverty, inequality, wars, discrimination and reverse discrimination, where private owners of the means of productions run a chaotic, destructive economic system. How much closer you want get to a Utopia?
But then you can't name a collective that does not have these issues. I do agree the federation is like the UN - offering niceness and aid... for a price... usually conformity.
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Obligatory "Why does Lore hate Star Trek and still watch it?" comment.
Havent watched anything after the first jar jar abrams movie in 09! it is not Star Trek!
People bought and read Brave New World, 1984 and Fahrenheit 451 and enjoyed reading them.
@@tmcgrenereHaven't seen anything since Dear Doctor.
As I'm sure Lore (and I) would say...
"I don't 'like' Star Trek. I LOVE it.
and what I do not love, I do not accept into Canon."
No points for whoever guesses the quote reference
He’s just really angry for some reason.
the Federation structure can be summed up as
" Starfleet the only game in town, but the dice are loaded, the cards marked and the dealer smiles ALL THE TIME "
So the Borg are the MIT Blackjack Team?
Nationstate alternatives:
Klingons, always at war with one another and ultimately less effective at war with other nationstates
Romulans, always inciting war with other nationstates and possibly less effective at waging said wars
Cardassians, small time
Ferengi, you gotta buy your way into their market; success in that market is a for sale through a number of DLCs
They are a society of BETAS.
Um, I think most people on Earth in the 21st Century would happily choose to live in the Federation instead of here. Twice the average lifespan? Excellent health, education, housing, transportation, etc. Plentiful food. Etc. Etc. Etc. (That's ignoring the interstellar wars that pop up every 10 years.)
@@ScoobySnacksYum Zero freedom?
Pass.
Eddington's monologue was one the best in DS9 in my opinion.
Sisko & Dukat's dialogue in "Waltz" (where they crash-land on a desolate planet and Dukat finally admits he should've killed all the Bajorans) or Sisko's monologue in "Far Beyond the Stars" as Benny Russell being fired from the pulp magazine he was writing for are also up there.
@@danielseelye6005 "Far Beyond the Stars was a really great episode.
"You can't stand someone would reject paradise," he said to Captain Crazy not knowing the man just couldn't stand someone who clowned him.
They should have had *Eddington* surrender himself (to save other Marquis) and *survive* in a Federation prison, with a little rant at Sisko and Starfleets naivety as he's sentenced.
And then when the Dominion War gets heavy he's pardoned in return for rejoining Starfleet and becoming a war leader, as he does have a lot of combat experience, especially in the Badlands.
And he accepts after the Jem Hiddar massacre the Marquis.
The dramatic possibilities of Sisko having to work together with Eddiington, who's now a vital officer in operations in the Badlands and in conducting hit and run raids on the Dominion.
Eddington has the respect of other Starfleet, some of whom have the attitude that maybe, just maybe he was right all along - as now the Cardassians are at War with them.
They are on the same side, and Sisko has to admit that Eddington is good at his job (he may even be a hero - what if Eddington swoops in and saves the Defiant one time?), but there's still bad blood between them.
But Starfleet doesn't care, Sisko is ordered to work with Eddington.
The character can be brought in when needed and then depart for another area of the War effort, or he could become a regular cast member that really 'stirs the possum.'
Eddington could be the voice of _"Lore"_ (this one, not Data's bro) and the audience, blaming Sisko for provoking the War while not being willing to face up to reality.
"You went into their territory, and yet you didn't realise....."
And how do the other main characters view and get on with Eddington?
Garrack might actually like him and respect his cynicism. He views Eddington as a realist, something that Starfleet lacks in his opinion.
Dax might privately agree with Eddingtons view of Starfleet, but she's Sisko's bestie, so she has to take Sisko's side, while privately pointing out to Sisko that he has a point... Then there's Ezri Dax's viewpoint, remember her opinion of the Klingon Empire?
Eddington is motivated by pure revenge for the Marquis, something that Kira and Worf can understand.
What if Eddington is informed about Voyager and he knew the Marquis that were "lost?".
And when he finds out about Tuvok being a Starfleet spy....
OMG, what if B'elanna and Eddington had been an item?
Eddington is pragmatic when he finds out and ask Dax to go over his letter to be sent to Voyager, giving his blessing to B'elanana and Tom.
"There's a war here, the odds of my survival are.... I'm a realist. And the chances of them making it back within a Human lifetime are...
I want to make it easy as possible for B'elanna, so she can be happy with her partner.
I respect your expertise in this area Dax, could you go over this and give me advice."
Then the next Voyager episode B'elanna is shown reading the message, bitter-sweet smile, and then she takes it up a notch with Tom.
How long did it take you to type this?@@casbot71
They did mention during the dominion war that the federation news service wasn't letting onto the true extent of the war.
"There is No War in Ba Sing Se"
What a world we live in when you can compare the federation to the fire nation.
@@Blundabus1337
Ba Sing Se is the seat of the Earth Kingdom.
@@matthew8153 lol ok
I never watched avatar past season 1
@@Blundabus1337
Then you’re missing out. It’s a phenomenal show.
@@Blundabus1337How do you know that Ba Sing Se quote if you never watched past the first season? Ba Sing Se proper is only introduced in the second season.
Maybe it reflects how citizens behave during war. When resources are low, you are forced to get creative. But in peace time, when all your needs are met, your motivation gets cut in half.
It's like Starfleets ship development where before the Borg came Starfleet built the Galaxy Type Ships which were all based on the same Design and had Families living on the Ships, then the Borg Came and Starfleet changed their tunes and built borg buster ships like the Defiant
The idea of complacency also reflects how tyrannies form, to quote a former dictator; "The best way to take control over a people and control them utterly is to take a little of their freedom at a time, to erode rights by a thousand tiny and almost imperceptible reductions. In this way the people will not see those rights and freedoms being removed until past the point at which these changes cannot be reversed." A good real-world example of this was the social changes with post-9/11, the desire for security against an exterior threat causing a paranoia that almost longed to reject freedom just to remain safe
8 Reasons the Federation is run by people
If you have individuals in any form of administrative authority, some level of corruption is inevitable. I think Star Trek acknowledging this only makes it more realistic and honest.
Exactly. This is why there is no such thing as a perfect society or perfect institution. Humans are not perfect. And it is also why there is always a need for checks on power.
I think it's a hard pill for young people to swallow. The process of checking power never ends.
@@belkyhernandez8281 Maybe centralized power should not exist at all, Governments is where most mass murder happens, the greatest amount of theft (taxes), the restriction and control of millions of people. An anarchist society would be better as people could pay for services instead of being forced to pay for a monopolized service instead
@@voluntarism335 No
@@voluntarism335 The problem with an anarchist society is that every single person fills the role of the corrupt boss on behalf of the government.
The best outcome is something like The Culture. We create AI so advanced it's better at looking out for us than we are. Benevolent Skynet is the happy ending.
The problem with anarchy is nothing can get done. There are 100 ways to complete any task. 10 are great ideas 10 are bad ideas, but they all complete the task. The problem with an authoritarian idea is people tend to be selfish and stupid. It is a balance. You need a one chief but he needs push back on the regular.
Talk about the change in character.. Kira she went from absolutely HATING the Cardis as a Species from her personal an cultural experience to learning to pick, choose an being selective. By the end she even has sympathy for an protective over some. An ironic she helped liberate them from the ultimate authority centered governments in this franchise
Kira has some of the absolute BEST character development of any character in any of the ST series and gives us some of the very best moments where we see it.
Just her change in Duet from ‘he is Gul Darheel no matter what evidence you show me and we will execute him’ to ‘No… too many innocent people have already died.” At the end.
@@Meinfuhrerhoffman totally agree she's probably one the most important characters to me of DS9. Her people an their culture an dealings with the Cardis are repeatedly, wether was meant to be or not, actually real important to THIS Trek show
She fought in a war where she found collaborators to be no better than the enemy. Over time she found out that her mother was a collaborator, and to save her she became one as well. Later she realized she became a collaborator in the Dominion war. She encountered Cardassians that opposed the occupation. She even became close to one of them simply because he thought she was his daughter and when he realized she wasn't he was willing to help her escape.
Over the 7 years of DS9 she learned that not everything is black and white.
And I would say that Duet was the start of her evolution as a character. Coming to the realization that some Cardassians did not like what their government did but were forced into submission.
that's cause it's great writhing to change your character over time and make them learn from past actions.
I'd argue that section 31 is one of the less creepy things about the Federation, mostly for the sole reason that such a tiny number of people have even heard of them. It means they aren't an instrument of terror, you can't fear something you've never heard of, do they undermine the ideals and values the Federation espouses? Sure, but then as this video shows it's more an ideal to try to live up to at best and an ego soothing self delusion at worst than any actualized reality.
And they weren't a self-serving power mad group out for themselves, in a way they were idealist just like the average Starfleet officer, it's just that they had their eyes uncovered and were pragmatic idealist who understood that the ends do sometimes justify the means.
After all Sloan killed himself (apparently) in order to protect Section 31's secrets.
That's not the act of a power hungry man.
Section 31 would have been opposed to the coup attempt in Paradise Lost, prehaps they even quietly helped Sisko uncover it?
Sloan was honest when he said that Section 31 does what it does so that men of good conscience like Bashir could be free to act to better the "world."
CHILDHOOD is aspiring to be in *Regular* Starfleet.
ADULTHOOD is admitting that Sect. 31 makes more sense.
Additional: What if the Federation is only good because Section 31 gives them the luxury of being able to play good guys and win?
And *without Section 31 behind the scenes,* making sure that Starfleet prevails, the Federation devolves into a ruthless dictatorship because that's what they need to survive.
Being pushed to the wall with the threat of the Dominion War almost resulted in the Federation becoming a military dictatorship [Paradise lost], it was an _out of context_ problem for Section 31 as they weren't yet ready to protect the Federation from that (but their bioweapons lab got onto that).
The alternate timelines with evil Human Empires are the result of what happened when Section 31 wasn't able to protect the idealist from _the viscous reality of the universe,_ and the idealist therefore weren't put in charge of the Federation.
Section 31 are the deliberate enablers of Starfleet idealism.
@@casbot71
I *really* like that angle! (I'd not thought of the matter that way before.)
Well written!
@@casbot71Special Circumstances will come up, from time to time.
That gave me food for thought, I know the Federation is not perfect and many Star Trek episodes and Movies does explore it.
I wonder if there's an analysis of Captain Janeway's actions and decisions in apprehending the Equinox.
Personally, I think Janeway was insane. Remember she started out as a scientist -- I think she KNEW command wasn't her thing, but she got peer-pressured into it, and then dumped into a traumatic situation with no obvious resolution. She went a little crazy.
Props to Kate Mulgrew for convincingly playing a character whose personality changed from episode to episode.
This video won't sit well with a lot of sci-fi fans.
Now make a video of 8 reasons why the Imperium of Man are the good guys in order to reach peak controversy.
You'd have to have quite the reach to be able to come up with 8
@@chloegoodwin2482 Number one:
Imperium is willing to work with more xeno races than any other faction, thus they're the least xenophobic. Orks are KOS to tau but Imperium uses ork freebooters. Hell the Black Templar worked with Chaos at one point during the beast war.
Number two:
Imperium is honest. The Tau and Imperium have the same goals with galactic conquest, its just the Imperium is open about it.
Number three:
Most of the evil stuff the Imperium does is from the mechanicus and inquisiton, but if you remove those groups, the Imperium are more benevolent than the Federation, but the Imperium falls in a week. It's why guilliman didnt disolve the inquisition, they're needed for everything from genestealer cults to enslavers. Even the most corrupt and lazy inquisitor takes enslavers very seriously.
Number four, last one for now because post limit:
They're lead by a good guy. You know what Guilliman was doing during the great crusade? Working with Eldrad's corsairs. The dude is pure noblebright. You can argue that it's dumb how goodie goodie he and the ultramarines are, or that theres rumors of something bad he did in the past, but hes lawful good currently.
Maybe not "the good guys" but I'd argue the least evil.
edit: Imotekh's Sautekh Dynasty might challenge that, but he doesn't have enough lore to really make a video about. Sadly. Love that dude.
@@Blundabus1337 Number one: Working with aliens does not make you 'not xenophobic' if you still hate them. Least racist does not give you points.
Number two: Being honest about being evil does not make you not evil. This is also not even true since the Imperium lies to their own people all the time using propaganda about how xenos and mutants are inherently bad and that humanity has a sole right to rule the galaxy ect. ect.
Number three: "If you just remove these institutions it'll be ok - but also you can't remove them." You also forgot the space marines, the Ecclesiarchy, I mean basically every other organization in the Imperium including the Imperial Guard are corrupt and vile.
Number four: The new guy in office is ok I guess? That doesn't really make up for the evil shit his faction is constantly doing to both their own people and outsiders. It'll take a lot more than Guilliman being in charge for a while to turn such an inherently flawed and bloated empire around.
The fact that you'd argue the Imperium is 'not evil' is laughable at least and deeply uncomfortable at worst.
I would watch that. FOR THE EMPEROR
"This video won't sit well with a lot of sci-fi fans."
Sci Fi fans have already seen Farscape and Blake's 7.
In the Federation, you can be anything you want. Unless you're an Augment or a Changeling.
(Although if you're a Changeling, and not too dramatic about it--- THAT might be all right.)
Try not to be an AI, either. Data is alive today only because Picard is a good speaker. And let's see... the M5... Vaal... the Landru computer... Nomad...
One hole in your theory on restrictive travel: Cassidy Yates.
Perfect example of a 'working class' civilian freighter captain.
You forget that she was Sisko's girlfriend. She had extra privileges.
And she also may have been a trader for the Ferengi or bajorans and not a federation trader.. or she’s super rich.. or she’s one of the normies I discussed.. I chose my words carefully for this kind of counter.. I’m not gonna lie :p
@@LoreReloaded To be honest was it ever stated she's actually a Federation citizen? She went to a Federation jail, but that was sort of an international law situation. Maybe there's evidence I'm forgetting, but could she be a totally independent human?
I once made simpler arguments, going so far as to call the Federation aristocratic. My ultimate conclusion was the reason these arguments can be made is because of the lack of world building in Star Trek. How does their economy work? Is it Earth that has no money or the whole Fedration? How does their government work? How are Federation counselmen and president chosen? Star Trek has been so focused on Star Fleet we don't know how the rest works.
Federation seems comfortable with Betazed and Vulcan which are aristocratic
And if you grew up in a society that has no money, wants or needs, how does one understand latinum? Or the Latinum based societies and cultures?
" Is it Earth that has no money or the whole Fedration?"
Outside of Earth, we do have Latinum.
@@JadeFenix "And if you grew up in a society that has no money, wants or needs, how does one understand latinum? Or the Latinum based societies and cultures?"
Or to put it another way, if you grew up in a family that has so much money, generations of your family will never have wants or needs, how do you understand workers needing money to survive? How do you understand struggling to buy food or pay bills? All you understand if being as proftiable as possible and when one of the bigest drains on profit is the cost of labour, well...
@@GeoNeilUK well said. I love DS9, but something seemed to be missing culturally. The federation staff easily accepted and integrated themselves with Quark's business. I know I might be over thinking it, but culturally the federation and the ferengi are oil and water, they definitely don't mix. And here on DS9 it happened so easily?
Some of these are easily explained by reasons other than corruption.
We mostly fallow the fleet flagships, which would not be policing core systems. Their goal is also to make contact and establish relations with new planets and study new phenomena.
They retconed the no money thing and in all economic systems you’re going to have areas that are more productive than others for various reasons.
As much as I hate the concept of money. Its a necessary evil. If we got everything we wanted we would be bored and empty. A living wage challenge you and makes you happy when you can afford things you want. You need a bit of sadness to create happiness. I'm not a greedy capitalist who would wish to arrest people for cutting even a cent of my profit but I feel like I'm being a moderate.
Retconning away the “no money” aspect of their society opens a huge economic can of worms - you see, money exists as a means of rationing limited resources but the Federation has supposedly eliminated material need which calls into question why they suddenly have money at all! When you have replicators that that produce a nigh unlimited supply of goods (energy being the only limiting factor - which is trivial now due to things like dilithium reactors and artificial black holes that can easily be harnessed for power), what’s the point in having a rationing system?
This universe has gone long past its expiration date and is now swimming in contradictions…
@@wilberwhateley7569 i feel like it's like star wars. They had cool concepts at the time but as they get more creative things don't make sense anymore (like just ramming ships into each other with full jumps)
@@thewhitewolf58 I'm sorry, but we haven't had any "Star Wars" in a long time - what exists today is "Disney Wars" and it's essentially its own separate franchise.
Gene Roddenberry made it an edict during TNG that was no money in the Federation because money should not be needed in a utopian society.
Answer: Yes, it's a terrible thing. And it's a reflection of modern society.
It's worth pointing out that Trek covers hundreds of years worth of history, so it is more than likely that the Federation changes its politics over time, from Government to Government and as the people's wants and desires change just as much as they do in real life.
It's often overlooked, but the Federation becomes more obviously hard line after Wolf 359, but also after TNG season 1's episode 'Conspiracy' where it's said most of Starfleet's top brass was wiped out.
Likewise in TOS, this is a time where most of the top Captains and admirals had fought in the Klingon war and at a time when the Klingons were becoming more organised, so again we see that Starfleet and the Federation's structures are reorganising to react to the struggles and threats they currently or recently face.
Pursuit of Money may be gone, but what of the other currencies people have used over the years and centuries? Honor, Favors, Love and good marriages, crops and skilled hands, Protection from enemies.
So Yes, The Federation does use a kind of Currency, that of Prestige, of Nobility and recognition in the eyes of the Federation. Each planet competes for it, hordes it, does everything they can to be looked upon with favor or Interest by the Core functions of the Federation. They use technology like a set of competing craftsmen, words like dueling swords, discoveries and accomplishments like war trophies and tribute from foreign lands.
An army of Dueling Poets and philosopher's, marching to the tune of their own self-satisfaction. To say nothing of their actual soldiers' accomplishments in settling disputes, Armed Diplomats as it were.
Add to this Picard's line to Lilly; "the pursuit of money is no longer the driving force" this isn't that there can't be capitalists, within a society with a post-scarcity economy there are always going to be outliers like Harry Mudd who will seek to gain money for no other reason than because either they can or to prove themselves. Paris states in "Dark Frontier" that after money went the "way of the dinosaur" that Fort Knox was turned into a museum, but even without hard currency they'd still have some form of 'exchange' just to interact with other races/factions given Sisko's attempt to keep his actions with Grathon Tolar aboard DS9 secret and Quark's response; "every man has his price"
Simple: power corrupts. The government of the federation is vaguely defined in the canon but we do know there’s an executive (the president) and at lest some kind of legislature. It can also be assumed that a judiciary of some type exists, as Starfleet has its own version of JAG, implying there is a civilian court system. This seems all to familiar to citizens of the USA and it’s representative democracy, which is of course prone to corruption with career politicians and their symbiotic relationship with lobbyists. The federation doesn’t seem to have the motivation of profit as the driving force of commerce and bureaucracy, instead seeking a more egalitarian model of cooperation in an economy of abundance. This type of model would seem to not be prone to corruption since individuals could not amass wealth or power in any meaningful way other than achieving prestige in career oriented accomplishments in science, technology, exploration, etc., with any and all advancements freely shared with all member worlds.
But what we see during the Dominion war and later indicates not corruption in the federation, but the corruption of Starfleet with its monopoly on military power. Starfleet boasts of being a peace keeping non-military force while blatantly conquering territory when given the excuse of an aggressive adversary as well as fielding ‘exploration’ vessels with advanced weaponry and manned with crews in an obvious military hierarchy. And when a true existential threat knocks of the Federation’s door it’s Starfleet that basically declares martial law, enforcing draconian search protocols and invasions of privacy. The federation government seems powerless to stop this behavior, and is perhaps grateful to be relieved of the burden of attempting to negotiate with true rivals or more powerful space nations.
“All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to the corruptible.” - Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune
@@KristoffDoe this is why anyone given power should at the very least be vetted with personality testing and interviews by recognized psychology professionals. Unfortunately this will never happen since the psychos already have been in power for generations and will never put any mechanisms in place to keep them from power.
So I guess the real answer is no government. Anarchy. Everyone is sovereign. Except for the pathological, those folks need therapy and meds.
Starfleet has historically been a joint military & exploratory force.
Also, Starfleet cannot declare martial law. It is subservient to the Federation president & council.
When has the Federation leadership been powerlessness to stop Starfleet? We have seen Picard disobey orders from the Federation Council that he thought were illegal and then brought evidence for the wider government.
However, we have not seen Starfleet perform a straight-forward successful coup. Most of the Federation worlds still have their own governments and militias.
The Contradictions in the Main line Trek do make it worrisome. At least for TNG era. TOS didn’t explore as much of the domestic Federation What we do see seemed a more hands off Starfleet with more of a clear acceptance of it’s Military role. What we see of Kelvin timeline seems to show a somewhat more confederated Federation with separate Local law enforcement and other agencies. Yet it started the line of mixing to much TNG into TOS.
There's also the inherent contradictions between what Roddenberry envisioned and his writers envisioned. Roddenberry was a champaign socialist, and viewed the federation as a kind of communist utopia, while his writing staff saw the federation as "America in space". They were writing the original series with the federation as an analogy to the USA, while Roddenberry was writing the series with the federation as the USSR. You didn't see too much of Roddenberry's vision till the 70's, when he started adding things to the setting like the whole "we don't have money in the future", "the federation takes care of every citizen's needs", and other things.
Writers ever since then have been trying to deal with the contradictions of the federation, how it's supposed to be a cashless, welfare utopia, while also having it's own military, and somehow not being a heavy-handed authoritarian state that controls all aspects of people's lives.
@@joshuarichardson6529 Spinds like the natural contradictions people face in real life in how they handle the aspects of their society
@@joshuarichardson6529 I think it's easy to see the "America in space" idea when comparing the Federation and Klingons against each other as the Klingons and Romulans each served as analogs to the USSR and Red China before "Undiscovered Country" showed the destruction of Praxis as more of a post-Chernobyl Ukraine/Russia. Once Enterprise began the idea of Starfleet/United Earth was clearly leaning into a form of pre-TOS "America in space," especially during the Xindi arc acting as an analog to the 2003 Invasion of Iraq
I wonder if Star Trek would have benefited from pulling a SWTOR and having not just another alien empire, but a powerful, organized human state forming in the periphery that actually opposed them for the reasons mentioned as well as embracing elements of human life (ex. conflict, acquisition of wealth, religion) that the Federation claimed to evolve beyond.
Have them form not just a military thorn in the Federation's side, but also an opposing vision, maybe forming a society along the lines of what Julius Evola would have had in mind (eg. very hierarchical, very religious, far less pacifistic, yet emphasizing that embracing these elements is as much about embracing transcendent value than any transient advantage) instead of Roddenberry.
i think trek desperately needs that, when playing a star trek game i prefer the 'bad guy races' cause there more interesting.
Another interesting possibility is a civilisation of Humans that go fully into genetic engineering _but_ have learnt from the mistake of the Augment's designers - that is the flaws with unrestrained aggression and megalomania that were mistakenly programmed in the original Augments.
They are obsessed with self-improvement, modification, and reaching their full potential.
They have also improved the Human psychological makeup so that they aren't as emotional and irrational and had natural self-control - what a Vulcan wishes Humans were like.
These are 'Julian Bashir' supermen, not 'Khans'.
Throw in a little _Dune_ deep thinking and mental training (developed from various backgrounds including ancient Human, modified Vulcan mental disciplines, and others, including the rules of acquisition... Androsian SuperSoldier training?) and they are Poet Warriors and philosophers who are benevolent superhumans, not would be conquerors (at least they don't plan on provoking the Federation, they are very pragmatic - they may even decide to occasionally help the Federation without being asked, with a ends justify attitude).
_But they still know that they are better._
It would be a moral quandary for the Federation. They are effectively banned under Federation law, but they are outside the Federation so it shouldn't matter.... yet they are (were) human.
And it would not be a good idea to start trouble with them.
And how to react if they have a Knight Errant aspect to their culture, and individual and small groups of Superhumans are wandering around righting wrongs and all that, in their _cloaked_ hero ships?
Or they could be carving out their own little Empire while not provoking the big boys. And being very effective peacekeepers in their sphere of influence.
Or they could be both?
So basically and imperialist capitalist faction. The Star Trek universe already has the ferengi and Klingons.
That's why the Federation was afraid of the Maquis.
@@JayV98 True, but they're aliens whose entire shtick is these traits.
This would be an opportunity to form a proper enemy from within Humanity/the Federation's own ranks. In addition, if again we go with Evola's ideas, it would differ from both in that such a drive would not be for external factors such as honor or profit, at least as the baseline or ultimate goal, but for as means to achieve self-evolution into something more through acts of heroism or intellectual/spiritual development.
No system is perfect. And the writers are living in the here and now. In the best written episodes, the big difference between the Federation and modern real world governments is that the Federation is sincerely trying.
When Federation politicians and officials get things, wrong, it is because they were self-righteous and misguided. When real world politicians get things wrong, it’s because they’re greedy and shortsighted. One is better than the other, even if both are bad.
The federation is Singapore except with Imperialism.
we only see the greedy and shortsighted politicians in the real world, the good people in government get overlooked by the media, because bad news gets more views then good news. We don't see our governments trying, but they are.
no goverment is perfect so the federation being run in an authoritarian style is probably the system that the federation sees as the best way to enact change immediatly, sure it isnt a perfect system but it is a system that works when used for the benefit of the federation though it is very corrupt (starfleet is also corrupt look at the bad admirals it had in its admiralty)
@@Blundabus1337Exactly but allot more Anglo.
GREAT CHOICE of quote from Battlestar Galactica. Spot on the truth of many bad situations in the world right now.
How can the enlightened future be enlightened if it allows the unenlightened run it. Every meritocracy will inevitably become an aristocracy because the people in power will secure a the means of obtaining merit for themselves. In the startrek universe. Starfleet hand picks and grooms it officers to follow its philosophies and doesn't leave room for other agencies to rival it in power.
While you have many valid points, it makes perfect sense that a military installation would require that everyone who enters that installation should be properly identified.
I couldn’t agree more.. they wanted blood draws based on someone because of their lineage and who they were related to with siskos dad.. he wasn’t on any installation
@@LoreReloadedthat is a good point.
@@LoreReloadedI disagree with that one. A Changeling impersonating Sisko's dad would have access to a lot of people, besides Sisko himself
@@charlesh8420 Or just influencing Sisko himself.
@@charlesh8420And that is why DS9 is great. Shades of grey
And this vid sounds a lot like the verse of Firefly/Serenity
What was that? I do the job & I expect to get paid...Jane do not bring any grenades this time...
Very good analysis, my question is if Starfleet is basically running the whole operation then why did leyton have to stage a coup?
He had to convince enough Starfleet members that there was an existential threat to the Federation, and overthrow President Jaresh-Inyo as well. Vice Admiral Leyton is in Starfleet, but he was not in charge of Starfleet.
Starfleet has shown it's many attitudes toward Captain's and Federation Officers who wanted to do the Galaxy some good. And then there were parts of the Federation who just randomly allowed beings to possess them, and it becomes a coverup, set up.
Even Admirals showing that they know better. Or they show their high and might against Jean Luc. Look at Section 31, main franchise that the corruption grows. Starfleet has shown it's needs more than the many, more than concerned willing Starfleet commanders. Like Spock, for instance. Being left behind on a planet that was created by a deranged criminal. Kirk's son even shown fear that Starfleet may use the Genisis Device as a weapon.
Look at how Jean Luc is pushed around and bullied by Admiral Nechayev. The countless evidence shown of High Command key members in the Admiralty abusing their power to get a job done because of fear over war and domination.
Like the higher ups who pressed Kirk into escorting and protecting Chancellor Gorkon, The Admiralty took the Enterprise away from Kirk twice because he got caught up into something that they wanted to hold for their own measure and power. Kirk and the crew literally went through all of the heroism and battle and prevented an assassination to instigate more war with the Klingon High Command. I feel like there were more people within the Federation that wanted Kirk to pay, and that meant taking the Enterprise away from him as a "screw you" when he ruined their coverup. They call the Constitution Class Enterprise old? They still kept the Excelsior classes running and they were built in Kirk's time just as the Constitution.
There is so much evidence out there in every series. Even with the temporal police. It's like when a Commander or certain ranks want to do something best for the good, Starfleet is stopping that because of their Prime Directive. They weren't doing too much by saving Voyager in any means necessary. All of that high tech within their own and Section 31?
This is basically how I see and feel when it comes to the Federation.
pretty good point, imma borrow those if ya don't mind
@@markfreeman4727 I don't mind at all! 😌
On the matter of the Government,
During DS9, I've always wonder if the President, who said he was nominated ran in a planetary and then interplanetary election. Of course, I imagine he sat on the Fed Council, then the planets list if they want their member to stand, though then are they backed by other councillors - such as pre-1963 Conservative/Britain, or have an interplanetary election, like the US, with either points or sheer numbers.
Though, of course, Star Fleet would surely secure their interests.
4:53 I can't anymore 😂 I just got an add for the Airforce
Not the Space Force? TH-cam dropping the ball there.
I always thought that there was federation civil transport. We never saw them as they were reliable and did not need help.
And they’re referenced regularly. The reason we’re seeing mostly bureaucrats, well-connected scientists, and other high profile individuals is… you don’t just hitch a ride on any old starship just ‘cause. You have to have a connection to Starfleet or UFP operations. Everyone else is riding the space-bus.
Most people really don't need to travel in space. Planets are big, and contain most of what you need.
Space-travellers would be primarily military, diplomatic, and large-corporate, simply because your average person simply has no motivation to leave his planet.
"You could live your best life within its gilded cage, provided you agree with the group ideology that is, so that's not really a bad thing."
And with that, you've described the world as we have it now, the world that every series of Star Trek has told themselves they're far in advance of every chance they get, from the point of view of the richest, most privileged members of that community.
Outside of that gilded cage, where the majority of the world's population (and therefore it could also be argued, the Federation's population) live, the Federation and Star Fleet, would be viewed the same way the protagonists of Farscape would view the Peacekeepers or the protagonists of Blake's 7 would view the Federation.
I was wanting to write something smart aleck as is my wont to do, but I'm feeling down and just don't have the creativity today. I hope you're doing well. It's a pleasure to hear your voice, I enjoy your videos and they make my day just a bit better. I appreciate you.
Hope all is ok? Things are ebb and flow and remember it will get better!
Life is an analog clock with "It is what it is" written over every hour. 😀@@LoreReloaded
Hey, did any of the shows ever fleshout how people got genetic engineering technology progressed enough by the 80s/90s to have the Augment Program?@@LoreReloaded
All you need to know is that, when given the choice, Sisko decided to retire to Bajor, about as far from the center of the Federation as you can get.
😁
How close is Bajor to Cardassian space?
Well, if I could move to a place where people WORSHIP me, it wouldn't much matter what my homeland's government was...
From what we've seen so far, aside from Earth, or Federation citizens that reside on space outposts and colony world, the average Federation citizen has little to no interaction with the Federation. Would the average citizen on Bolias, Vulcan, Betazed have most of their material needs provided by the Federation or by their own planetary government. Also to the average citizen, traveling through the stars is probably as rare as it would be for a 17th century European to travel overseas. It could be centuries (or millennia) for it to be like Star Wars where space travel is common for the average citizen. And even in the Star Wars Old Republic, we haven't seen ownership of space vehicles be as commonplace as automobile ownership is to modern day Americans.
True - giving private ownership of spacecraft powered by antimatter would be insane. Any terrorist group or a crazy rich person could take out a continent full of people just by ramming his ship into it and exploding it. Star Wars gets around this by using far less powerful ships - their civilian ships aren't flying bombs.
Well, that sounds similar to Warhammer 40 K with the imperial of man
Mr Eddington and BSG in one video ❤
It seems to me the Federation, beginning with TOS, was built on trade and commerce. Merchant shipping needing protection would have led to the formation of the 'star fleet'. Are you suggesting there was a government take-over before Leighton's coup attempt?
That was a great video. Thank you for taking the time to put it together.
It always cracks me up when everyone says the Federation doesn't use any currency.
Watch Star Trek 2, the scene where Dr. Marcus is giving her "Genesis Proposal" to the Federation Council. There is a line in there, "Should the Federation choose to fund this proposal to it's logical conclusion."
Not support, supply, assist, but the word fund. Unless language changes a lot more than one would expect, that means the Federation uses some form of currency.
That was before replicators were invented. Once they were invented, currency became redundant.
“The federation is a Homo sapiens only club”
-ST: the undiscovered country
From the 23rd century Klingons perspective thats not wrong, with starfleet command and federation HQ located on earth.
Oddly enough, the reason the Earth was chosen as the seat of power for Starfleet and the Federation originally is that it was central to the new federation, the planet closest to the homewards of the Vulcans, Andorians, and Tellarites. I'm sure that's changed as the federation has grown larger, but it's not easy to move a capitol somewhere else.
My friends and I, watching the Star Trek shows back in the day did indeed feel that the Federation, at least earth, would be a great place to visit, be we couldn't be sure we'd want to live there. If nothing else, I did get the impression of 'new-speak double talk' in espoused philosophies. Starfleet not having 'warships' being a key one. That's stated again and again in both 23rd and 24th era settings as starships are exploratory vessels, yet have sufficient force to at least counter most empires' battlewagons.
Likewise, various movie novelizations clearly suggest that Federation security and intelligence gathering is no joke, long before the introduction of 'Section 31'.
I've gotten the idea that it's very important to espouse Federation talking points if you want to move ahead in your career. I wouldn't be too surprised if there are sticks against 'Wrong-Think' as well.
I love slipping in the simple airheads from the 'paradise' planet as Federation B-Roll
When it comes to Means of Travel I wouldnt expect every individual to have a warp 5+ capable ship, just like not everyone nowadays has a jet. They probably have impulse to low warp capable ships for intersystem travel, but say a human wanted to go on vacation to Rigel, then they would need to book on a transport ship headed there.
If they wanted to go to Mars, then they could take their own impulse ship similar to a shuttlecraft.
The reason we wouldnt see much of this in the shows is that the hero ships were often exploring deep space, far away from core Federation worlds. So of course the only ones they meet with warp are other races, the Marquis, criminals, or "wealthy" explorers.
It wouldn't make sense for the billions of people on Earth to each have their own ship. Also, an impulse capable ship is a potentially lethal missile that could cause massive damage planetary.
"no money you mean you don't get paid?"
"we own nothing and we are happy"
Can I just say the president of the Federation from DS9 is maybe the most pathetic president I've ever seen in sci-fi. But I can also totally buy it, and they really nailed it. Completely incapable of making big decisions while constantly lamenting the fact he has the job. I can totally see why people wanted to overthrow him, to be honest.
It really helped the villains not just be black & white there, even if they ultimately went way too far.
I could see President Jaresh-Inyo being appropriate for a peaceful era of the Federation, but inappropriate for a war-era Federation. Good at getting groups to work together over time, but not at forcing decisions on others to get things done quickly.
@@toddkes5890 I don't know, he seems like the kind of guy who couldn't make up his mind on anything, even civil matters. "The Federation Budget is too much responsibility. I didn't want this job!"
"I have sworn eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
From the bridge plaque of the USS Yamato NCC-71807. United Federation of Planets
Here I have an idea for a more controversial video: What is the worst government? The United Federation of Planets or The Galactic Republic?
Not a fair comparison. The GR ruled over an entire Galaxy, the UFP rules over only a small area of one. The GR has millions of worlds and species, ST has a few major ones that have FTL abilities. The Naboo region alone, with one representative in the GR Congress - for 36 full-member worlds, over 40,000 settled dependencies (per wookiepedia) had one person in the GR congress. That's almost the size of the early Federation - all represented in the GR government by one person. That is just one sector, and not one in the inner core of the SW galaxy even.
9:38 I noticed the flag is at half mast. Just thought that was interesting. Also, possible hidden meaning in the sean.
Corrupt is such a strong word. I prefer the term "morally incompetent."
morally incompetent will lead to Corruption
Yes, when you take the recent current Trek as part of your argumentation, The Federation does become a rather dystopian version of Utopia which is one of the core reasons why so many of the old fans have left the building. It would be far more interesting to judge the Federation (and Starfleet) on the old classic Treks such as TOS, TNG, VOY, DS9 and even ENT. Even when limiting yourself to those, the case i feel can still be made and the result will be far more poignant due to the fact that the Federation in those series was still an Utopia and not the current Dystopia.
Most of it was based on legacy trek
Discovery and Strange New Worlds are hardly dystopian. S
Discovery is a biographical novel about an orphan who rises through the ranks and the friends, lovers, enemies she encounters.
SNW is a show about self-sacrifice and doing right for the large good. Pike knows he will eventually suffer a horrific accident, but in doing so, he will save tens of lives. Pike spends his days as a dedicated, loving captain who encourages teamwork and camaraderie amongst his crew.
Neither show celebrates war. Both shows eschew predatory capitalism for the Trek post-scarity, post-money philosophy.
Simultaneously, neither show pretends life is perfect and without pain. But all participants come together create a better universe.
And don’t forget all the mentions of penal colonies in TOS. A few episodes were solely based around them.
The positives hugely outweigh the negatives. I do agree the power of the admiralty is a flaw but that aside The Federation is a far better option than other empires.
Keep in mind that I'm not disagreeing with the thesis, but I'm thinking about what you said about travel restrictions. Somehow the Hansens acquired an Aerie-class science vessel, which is roughly 7-10 years old, to go off on what most in the Federation saw as a 'Wild Borg Chase.' They didn't seem wealthy, and (iirc) it seemed as though they weren't on some sort of Federation Science Council-approved research mission. It doesn't seem as though they were criminals, just 'mad xenobiologists' in a way.
Like I said, not disagreeing with the thesis, just thinking about counterexamples to that one point.
I would completely agree with these assessments of the Fedration, but I would add that most of what we see is probably very clever propaganda, mostly intended to show the lower classes (that used to be the middle class before factories and farms were replaced with replicators) what life is like in Starfleet. It shows them, in a fantastic form, what Starfleet does, and gives them a glimpse of a better world, one which the Federation would like them to believe exists. Of course, none of this is real, and the best defence of this is just how much technobabble and handwaving the show expects the viewer to swallow. The excuse for the amount of farcical solutions to problems is that humanity as a whole is so advanced that even high-schoolers can solve engineering problems that no one has ever encountered before, and they can solve them in just a day or two.
There is the objection that we do see several non-flattering actions taken by Starfleet officers, and that ruins the image; except all of those persons that do such things are portrayed as bad guys, undermining the Federation's ideals and methods. This fits the theory nicely, as easily understood bad guys are the core of the show's loop. In ToS, we have a 'monster of the week', or a monstrous civilisation, or an insurmountable engineering problem, and sometimes all three.; in TNG, we have the same thing, just with prettier visuals; in DS9, we have a different, more character-centric story, but still have the same patterns; in Voyager, again we have character studies and the old format, with the Borg a continual threat in the background; in Enterprise, again, the same old format, but with more time-travel. This can only really be explained, in universe, as pure fictionalised entertainment.
Section 31, We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.
That was probably the most realistic breakdown of the subject
With regards to technological development in Star Trek, the big expansive empires have the majority of it. When they come across an independent post-warp power that hasn’t left their solar system. Starfleet is usually centuries ahead.
When these new worlds join the Federation, they’re bringing little to the table. Starfleet sets up comms, industrial replicators, overwhelming the local scientists with a wealth of information coming at it. There is nothing they can possibly offer in return. There is a massive power imbalance between the core and border worlds.
With regards to industry, there is a ‘guild’ system, which somewhat fits the Federation’s profile as a meritocracy. You have to be able to earn a place in the guild before they let you preform any of their regulated skills.
Shuttles require a licence, but because cars don’t exist, it means that cities are walkable places and so you don’t one.
It’s’ ironic that as the Federation grows, it becomes more localised.
I once wrote an argument that the Federation is a dystopia. As I wrote it it occurred to me that the reason the Federation can be so easily made dystopic is because we know so little about it. We've only seen the Federation through the eyes of Star Fleet officers. Imagine if the only thing you know about the US was from Star Gate.
We know the Federation has no money but it also has credits which can be used like money. We know the Federation has personal property and people have businesses. We know land can still be owned and passed down family lines. We know there is a Federation counsel but not how they are selected or elected. We know Star Fleet acts is a policing, military, scientific, and exploration organization. They seem to have freedom of speech. Lastly humans seem to be the dominant species in the Federation fallowed by Vulcans.
That's about it. With so little world building it is easy to depict the Federation as a dstopia.
And this is why you don't chase Utopia, it will only delay the inevitable conflicts while unjustly oppressing those not able to fight back.
So what do you chase in order to improve society/foreign relations/individual well being?
Sisko really flipped a certain trope when he started talking about how earth is such a paradise. Others would've stopped there, likely not convincing whoever they were talking to out of their pov. Instead, he follows up with but out there, it's not a paradise. There's unfinished work. That's something about DS9 that you don't often see elsewhere. Where TNG tried to uphold the Federation's values in difficult situations, the Dominion War forced them to re-evaluate, with the results not always being positive.
It's hard to know how far this authoritarian spirit extends. This would seem a lot less like a guided cage if the charter provided guaranteed protection of your standard suite of rights--freedom of religion, freedom of speech, protection from unreasonable search and seizure, freedom of peaceful assembly, etc. The lack of a free press is a big hit to freedom by any measure, but press restrictions have been temporarily used even in countries like the USA (where freedom of the press is constitutionally protected) during emergency situations and wartime.
Differences between the core worlds and the outer worlds. You could be talking about Star Wars with that kind of statement with the other major struggle in that franchise (Sith vs Jedi being the better known) being the exploitation and deprivation of the Outer Rim vs the luxury and power of the Core.
I could see a video topic on the similarities and differences between SW and Trek on this subject, it's probably where they come closest to each other.
I love the quote by Adama for context
A perfect Federation makes for boring stories, certainly over the run Star Trek has had. TOS/TAS are closer to quaint small town utopia, but there's still cracks because of course there are. Also to a certain extent if you were a Roddenberry/Berman-like figure policing all episode ideas across all series to make sure the Federation is (not portrayed as, but actually is) a coherent perfect utopia you would need to either dive really deep into how or hand wave away every other episode (which does happen).
I think there are two things that is different from the a typical authoritarian regimes. There is diversity of the highest degree in every department and nepotism doesn’t seem to be a problem at all.
0:33 that rings SOOO true for Canada right now.
I agree with you that the Federation government is a semi-comunist organization that owns almost all means of production with (hopefully) limited corruption. The diminishing benefits as you get further from the core worlds is a result of the size of Federation space and practicalities of operating a society that spans thousands of light years. I don't believe the Federation would be motivated to restrict these benefits from spreading further from the center. But, any government system that would arise in our real world would almost certainly try to restrict these benefits and increase the control and power to a smaller and smaller group of elites at the expense of the general population.
I always wondered how people got land and property.
Why did everyone not have a house in the mountains such as Kirk, or Picard's family having a large vineyard.
"A gilded cage is still a cage."
Idk......Spider-Man?
inner core of worlds ( = luxury) vs. outer core => this is similar to Star Wars
As long as human beings are concerned, corruption will NEVER be completely eliminated. Ambition, whether driven by greed or prestige, is still a major corrupting factor. And it's been present in even the earliest depictions of the Federation.
The IDEALS of the Federation are noble, and the majority of its citizens hold them with reverence. But decision-makers are always vulnerable to the temptation of power that comes with position. Every time we see an Admiral or Commodore in TOS, somehow they were going to be a jerk. Same thing in TNG. They may not have been villains, but they seldom refrained from throwing their weight around in a way that created undue tension.
Now after things like the Borg attack and devastating battle of Wolf 359, and the Dominion War only a few years later, suspicion and doubt on the part of the people, AND the leaders of the Federation became more solid. Coupled with ambition, those with position were even more vulnerable to corruption. And in the years that followed, the people in leadership positions were replaced by people who had served on the front lines of the Dominion War, and had seen friends and colleagues die all around them. And the suspicion and doubt and ambition were still there amidst the anger. The result is people like Fleet Admiral Clancy, who looked at Picard with such disdain, under whose watch the Federation turned its back on Romulan relief efforts when the synthetic incident occurred, and the Federation became more xenophobic than the open society it had once been in peace time.
The whole corruption element actually makes things more believable, as like I said, where humans are concerned, it will never be eliminated. It might just change form a bit, but it will always be there just below the surface waiting to erupt.
The Federation, with its flaws and necessary or excessive methods to defend itself, is still one of the best examples of a Communiat utopia on modern television in a world where modern sci fi is riddled by dystopia instead of utopia. I definitely applaud Gene and some of the older ST writers for doing their homework. There are plenty of references to Communism in Star Trek from Picard's description of Federation society in TNG:Neutral Zone to a Ferengi quoting Marx. I wish some of the more liberal writers of Star Trek remembered that.
"I prefer brains over brawn as well. I think it's a waste of effort to test our combat skills. It's a minor province in the make-up of a starship captain." - William Riker, TNG: Peak Performance
During this episode, Federation was at war with Cardassia, and Starfleet, being it's military, was fighting it.
Miles O'Brian, Enterprise's transporter chief is a veteran of said war.
So Riker for some reason felt the need to lie to an admiral about the duties of a starship captain, or was badly misinformed about what Starfleet is. I am guessing the latter, because the former doesn't make any sense.
And if someone can make it to Commander rank in a military organisation without knowing it is a military organisation, a lot of people have to be lying. The recruiters, the media, the members, the witnesses (if there are any).
They lie to themselves, rather than admit the ugly truth.
When I played Civilization: Call To Power, I would roll Nazi. ... Because no revolutions.
0:30 That reason gives a whole new meaning to why Jake Sisko wanted to become a reporter.
The news really was being surpressed.
Sounds like Starfleet is a authoritarian regime that got things right
You are 100% depending on the government but
There’s no crime
No poverty
Clean air
No war
Universal healthcare
Sounds like a nice place
If you didn’t have to worry about money, what job would you have?
I often think of picards old arcehology teacher being like you are just a roman centurion patrolling the provinces. it was so like..yeah.
I’d argue that the Maquis isn’t just a set of people with a different political opinion. They were armed terrorist cells who were antagonizing an enemy in the violation of a peace treaty in the wake of a brutal war. Their inclusion in the video I believe detracts from the point as *any* state no matter the structure would intervene to quash that kind of insurgency if only as a matter of international diplomacy.
They always seem to mention a Federation council, however their actions such as with the movie Insurrection don't seem to have any public input. That type of council strikes me as autocratic regime, where the good of the Federation seems to neglect transparency to the public when convenient, granted many governments do this in todays age, however with the Federation you never hear about a elected government or an election in general. The body politic of the Federation has likely an appointment system even at the local levels so no election is held, which likely means if you never severed in Starfleet the appointment to a higher office isn't likely.
This really makes me think... A lot.
Gene tried to make a very positive outlook for society and culture.
Coming up with the Federation I TOTALLY get why people would like to be in it. Serve in Star fleet or... Burn it all down.
It makes me wonder if we will make things imperfect. Or can we come up with a good idea. However the problem is people governing the initial idea?
Yes Star Trek and all other media is about stuff with conflict in it. Will we always need these injustices to operate?
In the TOS the economics of the time seem to be somewhat more conventional Ib the Pilot episode Pike talks about becoming an Orion Trader, in "The Devil in the Dark", Kirk tells the mining supervisor the they (the miners) are about to become embarrassingly rich, in Requiem for Methuselah there is a reference that Flint purchased the planet he is living on. and there are other references. It seems during the TNG series there was a transformation to someone's idea of the "perfect utopian" society.
"You Will Own Nothing and You Will Be Happy!"
Rich Ferengi rimward of Rigel own everything.
Little did they know that The Ferengi owned everything within The UFP.@@RusticFederalist
The trombone is actually a key element of the 24th Century Goth Bluegrass Music Revival genre. Rich Ferengi Rimward of Rigel is Thomas Riker's newest hit. He mastered the style with his Sheliak cell mate, who serves as his lead screamo vocalist, at the Lazon 2 Labor Camp before they escaped on a Bird of Prey in the chaos of the Dominion War. @@badwolf66
Droppin' that Adama wisdom in there :)
Non-Starfleet citizens find it hard to get spaceships... Probably just as well as their engines are all essentially anti matter bombs if not taken care of properly.
It's not that unusual, how many Americans own their own Yacht? Only so many can be built in a year, and they are expensive to maintain.
The federation does have civil transport (mentioned in several RPGs) that citizens can book transport on if they want to travel around the galaxy, and they also fund a massive freighter fleet (mostly automated) that's largely derided by people as "carb haulers" as they're not needed as much with replicators being commonplace. All this is mentioned in supplemental material (mostly the RPGs and guide books).
Though the question of how people "get rich" in a supposedly cashless society is something Roddenberry never addressed. I'm assuming that money does exist, but the federation has a 99% tax on that income to fund a bloated welfare state. The "federation credit" is mentioned in several RPGs as a means by which players can purchase goods and services, but has never been confirmed on screen by any movie or episode. It's the only logical rationalization of this contradiction I can figure out.
@@joshuarichardson6529 A yacht is one thing, a yacht with an decent-sized RTG to provide steady power is another matter.
Similarly I would expect the Federation to have a Fusion Freighter Reserve, where there are a lot of civilian cargo ships that use fusion engines to go to warp. Their engines are not as efficient or compact or as powerful as an antimatter engine making them slower, but the ability to manually close a valve and shut off the hydrogen flow into the reactor makes them much safer.
It became popular in the late 90s and early 2000s to say that Starfleet was a military dictatorship. Even though I was pretty sick of trek and not like it or watch it anymore by that point, I never really bought that argument. The overwhelming majority of what we see in the franchise is set on warships far out to see, so to speak. The United States is not a military dictatorship, nor is the united kingdom, but if the only perspective you got on, those countries was through the crew of warships, it would probably seem like a military dictatorship. Likewise, the Soviet Union was a dictatorship, and a pretty brutal one but things on their ships would probably not have seemed terribly different than things on American warships, because there is just a certain way things need to function on a vessel in order to keep it operating. I guess my point is that whether or not the federation is a dictatorship, it is not possible to tell based on just spending time with the crew of various military vessels engaged in extended detached duty.
That said, I still don’t believe the federation is a dictatorship. Pretty much every comment in every episode of every show I’ve seen that has talked about the Federation and earth seems to indicate that it is some sort of federal Republic with a relatively high degree of autonomy within the individual member states. He Roddenberry himself occasionally described it as an organization that was looser than the United States, but tighter than the United Nations. Probably had better contemporary example would be the European Union.
But personally, I do not believe it is a place I would want to live. There is some thing offputting about the prettiness and ideology driven day-to-day life of the citizens we meet. They tend to look down on things that many people in our modern society value. For instance, by the time of the next generation of human religions appear to be pretty much nonexistent, and yet religions have existed in every society in every corner of the world throughout human history. Sometimes they are more or less important than other times, but the ubiquity of the concept has caused most sociologists to believe that it is something wired into our neurology and not simple superstition. To be clear that does not mean that any religion is true, or that there is or is not a God, simply that human nature is wired in such a way as to accept the possibility of such things in a manner that cannot be explained by simple ignorance. At the same time we repeatedly see the Federation, willing to allow entire species of intelligent beings to go extinct because they do not meet the federations arbitrary standards of development. The planet that Wor’s brother was an anthropologist on, is allowed to go extinct because they have not developed warp drive. That is pretty goddamn inhumane.
OK, not wanting to interfere with the natural development of civilization is tolerable, there are some societies on earth. We do not want to contact for various reasons, mostly their own safety, but if we knew they were going to die out completely going to a natural disaster, or whatever, we would try to save them as in obtrusively as possible. It is impossible to square allowing millions or billions of people to go extinct when you have the ability to save them with any concept of morality.
Every country has some sort of secret internal security department. There’s nothing wrong with that as long as it serves the public good. Do you want some people that can track down psycho killers, and mad bombers before they have the opportunity to harm a whole bunch of people . Control of the media is not a good thing but we really only get a very limited exposure to that so it’s hard to say whether or not it is real or simply another mistake in perspective cost by our very small sample size. I have long felt that the federation maintains a monopoly on interstellar flight, presumably as a method of control. Which makes sense because with replicators honestly who needs trade?
But if you ask me a thing about the Federation that makes it least appealing is that they have a kind of, “white man’s burden,“ attitude. They come into some new civilization that has beliefs or practices or opinions or values that the Federation does not share, and the Federation immediately condescends. It explains to them how stupid they are to do it that way, and how humanity has arisen to a point that it doesn’t need to engage in , whatever the hell it is that makes that culture unique. So they claim that everybody is equal, but it is obvious that they look down on any kind of culture that is not approved by the federation.
Obviously, this is not the intention of the writers. It’s a convention of the format and any attempt to depict. A utopia is ultimately going to be a little creepy.
Still and all I do not think I would like to live in the Federation
Finally someone who gets it. Now explain without replicators and unlimited energy that socialism is not a longterm answer to the worlds problems and Democracy with a free market is still the only answer that doesn't devolve into communism and a collapsed economy.
The main problem of the Federation in my opinion is Starfleet they have way more responsibility than a 'we aren't a military' military should ever have.
A endless vault of potential Doomsday Weapons yet they can't beat a one legged man in a ass kicking contest 90% of the time.
And somehow they created the most arrogant and corrupt senior staff in all of military history.
Yes I know most of that is due to writing reasons.
This issue largely stems from two things (neither of which is unique to Star Trek or Star Trek fandom): the belief in a platonic ideal of a utopian society and a belief that the best form of governance is enlightened despotism.
While by no means a universally held belief, there are a significant number of people who believe that the Federation is paradise, a utopia where all the problems have been solved. The real world isn't so neat and tidy; all choices have tradeoffs and two well-meaning, rational, intelligent people can disagree because they have different views on which tradeoffs are worth it and which aren't. There isn't going to be a single right answer for most problems and everyone is going to have to accept some tradeoffs that they wouldn't have chosen themselves. This doesn't fit with the idea of a neat and tidy utopia where everyone gets along and there's always a single right answer to any problem. In fact, the idea that there is an ideal society that you can achieve by following a set of rules... that sounds a lot like religion. And like with religions, Star Trek is rather quick to point out the flaws in other societies that prescribe a path to utopia, like the one in "The Masterpiece Society" or the Borg. Data said to the Borg "Believing oneself to be perfect is often the sign of a delusional mind."... perhaps he should have said that to those who believe the Federation is a utopia.
It's fairly common among people with an interest in sci-fi to believe that the best form of governance is enlightened despotism. This is hardly unique to sci-fi; Plato and Aristotle were both deeply suspicious of democracy and Plato even went as far as to say that the ideal leader would be a philosopher king (which is perhaps a bit self-serving on his part). But this assumes that there is a perfect form of governance that is best at everything whereas the reality is that any system is going to come with tradeoffs and some will be better at some things and worse at others. In the contest of Star Trek, the enlightened despot is the Captain, who is depicted as an infallible paragon of virtue (though DS9 was willing to question this and depict Sisko as an imperfect man rather than a god which is ironic because he's the one who ascends to godhood).
In short, there are those who believe the Federation and Starfleet in particular is utopia and that if it is a utopia, then they can do no wrong in which case authoritarianism is justified because an enlightened despot is the optimal form of governance. It's okay for Starfleet to effectively be a military junta because they know best anyways. But not everyone is going to agree with the "utopia" prescribed by Star Trek or accept the hero captain as enlightened philosopher king. Not everyone is going to agree that letting a civilization die to natural causes because the enlightened thing to do (per the Prime Directive) is to not interfere, even if that's SOP for Starfleet captains. From this perspective, authoritarianism isn't enlightened despotism but corruption.
Excellent video and really sums up what i have been saying about the Star Trek universe for years.
It seems to be a mixture of Starship Troopers were service equals citizenship and the Chinese credit scoring system.
If there is no money then control is lost so other things must be used to make people do what the collective want.
San Francisco looks awesome here but it doesnt look like millions of people live there so who decides who has a house overlooking the bay. Who ends up in Blackpool's of the world.
There doesnt seem to lot of elections going on so how is change managed.
I think ST is the end game for the WEF.
Well the Maquis wanted to fight the Cardassians to the detriment of the Federation. Even just disowning them wouldn't have been sufficient to prevent a war.
They tried to disown them, the Maquis then started being killed by Cardassians.. They fought back.. The Cardassians went to the federation.. the federation chose the Cardassians over its colonists..
Lore reloaded loves Star Trek. He has a passion for it. I do not believe he has too much of a passion for the newer Star Trek's however, I could be wrong. LORE What do you think about discovery and the card seasons 1 and 2 and a good portion of strange new world what's your opinion on those mr lore. Of course! Who does like any of those seasons or series?
I think you nailed it.. I enjoy Lower Decks, SNW, and Picard to a degree.. I can generally enjoy season 3 of disco.. but its not the same..
@@LoreReloaded totally and whether you want to call it woke or you want to call intersectional feminism and I know it's an old argument lore but truth be told that's what it is. I hate how they put Fathers down. They do it in that show if I recall correctly. And I also know for certain that they definitely put men down and sure men been putting women down since they were able to start doing something like that millennial ago. But it's just ridiculous how they're trying to push their agenda and they show it so vividly and in the open it just takes something away from the story writing of Star Trek and they're ruining the mythology of its. I hate that. Sorry I just went on a rant. Maybe that'll give you an idea for an episode of your channel
There was saying that "human were created with purpose to balance universe"，but down to the application level you maybe can saw gold mines with ancient activities from forced labour ,and of course reproduce is important to solve "labor shortage"issues.
So beautiful words for whole picture is often different compare to the reality level.hmm
OMG ! Go to time mark 6:28 in the Production section and there’s a Ferenge in StarFleet Science / Medical Blues ! So what does that do to the whole Nog storyline ?
6:28 That was the fake starfleet comand/san Francisco created by Species 8472 from voyager.
Based on real staffing
Authoritarian system can be more or less subtile depending on regime or governments . The more dangerous and insidious ones are the one where citizens think they are free and independent.
Liberty , rights and Freedoms need maintenance and vigilance from those who seek to control or rule societies by authoritarian means .
Going by what we see is dangerous ground. Take space travel. We only see it when there is a problem. Though in DS9 we often see non-Star Trek ships at DS9.
With this argument you could say that the Federation should make Holodecks and similar installations illegal as we see this technology often malfunction, being manipulated or incorrectly used (sometimes accidentally). It also allows the creation of artificial life, which is questionable at best, see Moriarty.
But that would ignore thousands of these devices working without a hitch within the Federation alone.
Does that mean that the absence of space travel means it is restricted? We can't really say, but it is doubtful. There is also the unanswerable question of how many want to travel. I would assume that many that want to see the universe would simply try Starfleet.
I'm not saying the Federation and it's representatives haven't been wrong or haven't done questionable things, calling the entire organization corrupt could go too far. 'Could', not 'is'.
I kind of expect "Do anything you want, be anything you want" is highly tempered by Federation morality laws, in particular if you go from our real world. Like AI generators. The more of a socialist dictatorship you get, the more you see this kind of thing, too. There's a 99% chance you couldn't get a holodeck to recreate a modern horror movie for example. "Error, this includes inappropriate violence and language. I cannot comply. I am sorry, I cannot create Klingon enemies as this creates an offensive stereotype to Klingons. You have been reported to a councilor."
ya i can totally see a civilian holodeck being programmed to replicate nothing but flowers and puppies
🎶Errr.🎶 You have been fined one credit for a violation of the Verbal Morality Statute.
@@markfreeman4727consider Troi trying to replicate non-healthy chocolate
@@markfreeman4727 I cannot picture Holodeck GTA existing in the Star Trek universe. They'd lose their minds. But if it did, it would be amazing.
@@isaackellogg3493 did that happen in an episode?
The heart of the Federation is only human. In EVERY sense of the term...
A interesting rival to the Federation would be a multi species society that is _more ethical_ than Starfleet.
It could have been an interesting episode(s) for Voyager as they have to contemplate that maybe they're not the "goodest guys" around.
Although it could always be because the founding species were actually inherently more ethical as species and not as morally 'complicated' as Humanity. They didn't have their major wars and abuses and greed and ect in their pre contact history. And so they don't need the checks and control measures that you _need_ in a society that is Human (and Vulcan and Andorian and) dominated.
But then again maybe not, and they are just a different way of doing things?
As for ethics, they may be *horrified by the Prime Directive* and view it _as a form of child neglect._
They think it's a duty to help benevolently guide pre warp species into becoming good Interstellar citizens... *and they are successful at it.*
They could be very advanced in the social sciences and are able to interviene in a medieval civilisation and have it be a _nice_ interplanetary civilisation in a few generations, without having them nuke themselves or pollute their planet into ecosystem collapse, or just become a copy of their own culture.
Or they could be less direct and more like the watchers, secretly manoeuvring the species to avoid the usual pitfalls, using a cardre of locally recruited agents (orphans that were rescued by transporters) who are raised to be the guardians of their species.
Another option is something like the Interstellar Concordium [ISC] in Starfleet Battles, but that won.
A peace enforced in a region by superior firepower and the pragmatic determination to use it with careful planning.
And once again, rather bemused by Starfleets habit of standing on the sidelines until it becomes a major threat.
If a Voyager episode, it could have ended in goodwill with the Delta Multi species society agreeing to disagree with the crew of Voyager but still accepting that Starfleet were trying to be good and were guided by ethics.
And then after Voyager is gone we see a high level meeting in the multi species planning rooms, where they are discussing what will happen should the Federation and them ever get close borders.
"We see in their cultural database here...."
"We should develop strategies based both on pacification and cultral modification, depending on their relative level of power when we finally do have to coexist.
Now the suggestion about joining them and becoming the dominate faction within their society is very interesting, and possibly the least risky and damaging, but it'll require a lot of social engineering and manipulation on our part.
Still we should consider this as a option."
There is a mention of this in the original series. Gary Seven was a human agent for such aliens, in the episode “Assignment: Earth,” where Earth was the planet they were helping to transition from a nuke-obsessed civilization to a peaceful, space-based one. Basically Posadism without World War Three
Interesting video!
I don't know what's the problem. If you prefer securttity, you can live on the core worlds of the federation or the most advanced coonies... If you want freedom, risk something... you can participate in founding a new colony. There are even some colonies with a specific way of life (no tech, other social rules/code, etc). Ultra consrvatives and wokies can have their own colony each and still be part of the federation. Or they can found their own independent state, close or not at all tied to the federation. Poverty gone, hunger gone, (internal) wars gone; ethnic, religious and other discrimination reduced to nearly zero... and also extremism. Star Trek shows us a world where humans already got their sh*t together and it gives a vague view on how to get the most important problems solved, hinting to the ownership of the means of production, unleashing the forces of production, pushing technology and science and always offering the option of cooperation even to hostile powers.
I mean, recognizing where humanity came from... our present world, full of poverty, inequality, wars, discrimination and reverse discrimination, where private owners of the means of productions run a chaotic, destructive economic system. How much closer you want get to a Utopia?
But then you can't name a collective that does not have these issues. I do agree the federation is like the UN - offering niceness and aid... for a price... usually conformity.
Starfleet has had warships from The very beginning of the federation.the first enterprise was a light cruiser which is A warship