Thanks very much for this video and to Mr. Petroni for explaining some of the issues, the back and forth in the EU-Parliament and how the situation presents itself within the EU at the present juncture. It is very important to keep the conversation going, cooperate with each other and make sure that professionals, museums and conscientious gun owners can continue their craft here and over the pond.
As an individual living in Europe, I'm very happy that organizations like this exist. People who are talking sense and bringing it to the people in charge, and thank you Ian for helping them get some more recognition. Because at the end of the day, this isn't even about guns. It's about taking a firm stance when the people in power are making a mistake. It's about standing up and presenting the real facts and figures when the people in charge are talking about making sweeping changes based on incorrect information. ESPECIALLY when these changes are happening just for the sake of making it look like they are doing something about a problem they don't even seem to understand.
Vulf Faolán oh, i agree. However, and feel free to call me a cynical old bastard, i dont think theyll listen. Its not starting mass hashtags or, and this is the real kicker, if no politician from any party talks about it, it wont cost them any votes because there is no alternative.
I met Stephen and his son in their shop while I visited Malta. Both are very knowledgable people and they took a long time during regular business hours to discuss various gun topics with me. Their invetory is also something you definetly don't see everyday in Europe. If you are a gun enthusiast visting Malta I can only recommend to pay them a visit.
The very idea that a radical terrorist attack would motivate a government to legislate/deactivate/destroy guns in state/private museum collections is pretty terrifying. That is entirely counterintuitive. It wreaks of authoritarian motivations. Why in the world would functional full auto museum pieces be a threat to society? It's not like ISIS was raiding museum vaults for 50+ year old weaponry when they can get modern weapons on the black market easily.
Indeed, this is pretty bad - but then again: The damned governments all over Europe didn't like armed citizens and they still don't, they don't like it that the people could overthrow them if they were armed! In the days of old weapons (blades mostly) were carried by aristocracy (which mostly supported their way of government - nobles would help other nobles to keep oppressing ordinary people and being armed helped) and later on that included sworn federal officers (not only the military and police!)...but arming the population? Nope, they tried their level best to keep any sorts of weapons away from the hands of normal people :( Sadly this applies to experts, too - seriously, the only experts on weaponry in Europe that can really practice their craft are gun-designers (working at big gun companies like Heckler und Koch!), soldiers and people working for the police - others can't have any fully automatic weapons (in most European countries, there is some exceptions!), despite the fact that legal gun owners are very unlikely to commit crimes (they want to keep their licenses for weapons, so they have to have a spotless record!) :( Does this stop terrorism? No, I mean Ian here showed us P.A. Luty's machine gun and his book is available through Amazon (or various other means!), which means everybody could really make a working machine-gun in his freaking garage :( - Gun-Control doesn't work! In fact it works as badly as the war on drugs (meaning: Not at all!), all it does is criminalize people for no gain in security :( Not to mention that terrorists can buy all sorts of things on the black market (poison, guns, grenades, rockets (and launchers) etc. etc.) :( - I bet that those guys that shot up Charlie Hebdo (spelling?) didn't rob a collector to get their weapons :( ps: Legalize all guns (no, not rocket-launchers and stuff like that, but all - even fully automatic - firearms!)!
Smells of incompetence and the needs to be seen doing something rather than authoritarianism. ISIS isn't using museum pieces, but neither would people be using it to overthrow the government.
It is called politics, as the man from FESAC pointed out they just want to be seen as doing something to combat terrorism without actually having to do much. It is stupidity and political manoeuvring and it should be opposed. However, it is not some authoritarian plot to collect all the arms in the EU. Stupidity happens in every democracy. Dumb laws are passed by Congress, by the EU parliament, by the UK parliament and so on. What we need to do is be active as this gentleman is, so that we do not allow for stupid laws to see the light of day.
They can and THEY ARE doing it right now :) Freaking ignorants... Every EU country has to accept the newest legislation according to which a collector weapons have to be destroyed.
Headlines = Votes, as in the case of the UK at the moment a lot of point scoring from certain poloticans, knowing full well they will never have to take the responsobility of thier actions.
A bureaucrat's job and livelyhood is inherently dependent on the existence of a problem. Therefore the bureaucrat is incentivised to maintain the problem and not solve it.
Don't even think about it! The politicians can come up with enough stupidity as it. The fanatics vote for loony's at eletcions, As for the rest of us, we are just trying to survive.
So THAT's what it was! I was torn between two thoughts this entire video, "What a wonderful fellow and what a noble thing he does" and "Where the actual fuck is he from???" That's an accent I've never heard before and I'm pleased to hear it now.
I'm not sure who your reply is aimed at, but my answer to your implied question is that most English speakers are too lazy to bother to become fluent in another language largely because English seems to have become a fairly universal language (I say this as a typically lazy Englishman!) . My original comment was to congratulate him first and foremost on his knowledge and then also on his fluency in English, both of which are both admirable and enviable.
Respect for keeping the politics away from this, the fascination for firearms history and mechanics does not have to be intertwined with the self defence debate.
They didnt make it political free in fact the whole video and discussion was political and thats good. Since the political issue is right to colect firearms. What you mean by not making it political is that they didnt bring up political fractions, parties officials by the name with is also good since it leads to nothing constructive.
Well, its a pro-gun lobby organization thats arguing pro-gun. So: politics. Thats how democracy works. You look out for some people share your interest, group together and have an argument.
Honestly the self defense debate is probably the weakest talking point in the gun control debates. There is too much going against it especially if we are discussing military and automatic weapons.
Making museums get a permit for a standard capacity magazine on a inert gun is the craziest gun law I have ever heard. Even if the museum went under they would not let someone walk in off the street an buy it.
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The big problem is that some criminals in Europe used to get via legit ways functioning pieces of automatic guns to build a complete functioning gun
No, the only real problem was that some states badly deactivated weapons. There are some guns that are deactivated only to state that they can fire blanks automatically. These weapons were used to buy some terrorists.
Polish law lists "crucial weapon parts", which are considered firearms by the law (yes, if you dig up rusted remnants of a WWII rifle and don't immediately give it up, it still has a "barrel with chamber attached", so you are now in posession of an illegal firearm and can be sent to prison for a time between six months and eight years), but a magazine is not on that list. Anyone can buy a magazine of ANY capacity at any time. The only capacity limitation applies to hunting, where it is illegal to hunt with a semi-automatic weapon that is "designed to be loaded with more than two rounds at a time". I'm bringing that up because even our 1999 firearms law that's barely been updated for all that time and is full of as many weird loopholes as any law you can think of (you can't store your gun in a gun safe, ownership of which is mandatory, that isn't yours, but you can lend your gun to another gun owner and then they can store it in their safe, but that only works for hunters and sportsmen, because collectors license wasn't originally included, so a collector cannot lend or be lent any guns ever), whoever formulated it knew that magazines and magazine capacity is not something to be regulated, as it makes no sense.
Thanks to people like Mr Petroni and other members in FESAC and Firearms United Europe we can still enjoy our collections and sport shooting in Europe. Remember gunnies from around the globe that 3 worse enemies of our guns are rust, legislators and politicians. Like what Mr Petroni and Mr Mc Callum said we have to be united because 1 thing that happens to one place will influence the outcome in another. One last thing is that we have to remember that we are ambassadors of our sports, so we have to act responsibly, we should not forget that we are dealing with a sensitive subject.
Researchers going to museum collections only to find the guns deactivated would be like historians going to museum archives only to find that they're full of blank books.
i highly doubt a historian would need to shoot any antique gun in order to study it. At least for most categories in its history unless they are trying to research the range/rate of fire/those types of factors, though i assume most of that info is readily available.
+Ares S. No Some things can only be fully understood by using them/seeing them in action. Same reason why things like experimental archaeology exist - people can speculate all day about why something might be the way it is, what this piece might do, what mechanical purpose it might have had. Best way to find out is to use it.
I'm glad to see there's an organization in europe that aims to expand individual liberty and pursue the preservation of history, nice to start the day with a warm fuzzy feeling.
Great discussion. This also applies within the united states. We often ignore what is happening in CA or NY or NJ, but you can bet that it will be used as a test bed for a restriction coming to your state. We need to stick together and fight these restrictions wherever they come.
Just wanted to validate what the dude said about Ian's work. I never shot a gun, probably never will own one (seems expensive and an hassle, although those 2-gun matches sounds like a fun hobby), but he does a great job of showing what is interesting and fun about firearms and that you can be a total gun nut without also being civil and reasonable.
You should look into what has happened to deactivated weapon collectors in Europe, they have seen the value of their collections slashed because of all the EU rules being forced on them. In the last couple of years the laws have changed at least 3 times if I remember correctly. It's crazy.
In France, as from August 1st 2018, deactivated weapons will be upgraded in category C (thus subjected to registration), in the event of sale between private individuals, it will thus be mandatory to pass by a broker or an arms dealer to proceed to the registration! Why register a piece of scrap metal (that's what it became with those new specs)? To proceed mass confiscation in future.
Its not the weapon its the person! My 17 year old daughter could not buy a knife fork and spoon set for college in the UK due to the law. A butter knife!! So the london knife murders have increased makes no sense to me criminals will always get weapons!! Its mad if I could own a pistol I would. Am I liable to commit mass murder NO
loxxxton poxxxton its the UK way - we punish the law abiding for actions the criminal takes. Did you hear about the guy up north who is currently awaiting sentencing for having a potato peeler on him? Yeah. Really serving the public interest by sentencing him.
I think it's a lot more fundamental than the weapons . I think it is a basic human right that should be acknowledged in every country that no state has the right to forbid any individual from defending himself from attack . It logically follows that for bidding a competent self-defense is equally unjust . The fact that more than half of the nations in the world require their citizenry to flee or die in the face of attack is astounding and speaks to the core values of their bodies politic . They value state power significantly more than the value the rights of lives of their citizens . Getting into the triviality of which tools can be used or not this is the key point to the right of capable self-defense .
Fantastic topic I was unaware of and many thanks to bringing it to the US firearm community. There is much we can do to help each other out across the globe in this matter. Thanks for posting!
The Czech Republic has been a good example of how to respect gun ownership and use in the European context. Collectors can own even full auto guns, and concealed carry for self defense is legal with a license. The system isn't perfect, and it's always under threat, but it's better than some states in America.
Perhaps things will improve for those states as the Supreme Court and lower courts get more judges who will respect the Second Amendment, if nothing else.
I wish those guys the best of luck! The EU and most western European countries are destroying their own history. The knowledge of some fascinating firearms may be lost forever if we don't tread carefully.
Learned a lot. Thank you for this, Ian! So thankful to be American. Would love to see a much more gun friendly Europe. Imagine all of the unique talent and designs the world will miss out on because of the restricting gun laws on our friends across the way...
Very well done video which excellently puts forward the view that collectors are not the people that are the cause of violent related crimes. All authorities should be addressing the people involved in these crimes and not the means by which they carry them out with.
At least you can get such a licence in France - in Germany, those licences simply don’t exist, you can’t legally own magazines above certain capacity limits.
Any maganzines are legal to own in Germany. You just can't use high capacitiy for sport shooting or hunting. Owning is no problem at all as they are not viewed as gun parts. Don't spread misinformation please.
i still think is is absurd that countries that seem to understand that abstinence education is a disaster everywhere else, seem to think it is a good idea regarding kinetic and cyber weapons. knowledge should not be feared. historians, researchers, and collectors help protect us from repeating the blunders of history whether that blunder is one of design, deployment, or the laws around a matter. not knowing how people before you have failed in a thing makes it infinitely harder to avoid the pitfalls they fell into. where having working examples of the things that actually worked means you can replicate that success far easier.
6:49 - by now in this video, I understand why Britain wanted to leave. Not that Britain was ever a bastion of firearm-collectors' rights, but - at some point - sane people and countries would tell the European Union to just go to hell with their over-regulation tendencies. That's just ridiculous the the European Union would attempt to treat all participating countries as one country as if they were operating under an oppressive dictatorship / oligarchy.
Hi Ian!!! Could you plz make a video about Kalthoff Repeater Flintlock? I have heard something about it but I can't find its mechanics online, I wonder if it's like the Lorenzoni's. I'm sure you will be so interested in this early "assault rifle" too!
Hi Ian, excellent commentary as always. Here in Australia, following a series of spectacle gun massacres, all automatic firearms were compulsorily purchased by the government. Fair prices were paid. So military style automatic weapons are mostly off our streets. However various gangs still manage to sneak them past our customs. These are for the most part 9mms pistols, though some big boys have slipped through. I am an avid viewer, with a life long interest in firearms, who has never owned a gun funny. Shooting ranges, where an individual can hire a very wide variety of weapons, pistols and automatics, such as M14, AK47, etc can be hired at great cost, way beyond ammunition cost, due to the supervision of newbie shooters, etc. I must give this a go one day. In New Zealand, many .308 hunting weapons of a bolt action type are used by farmers as here, but I believe the policing of a very small and widely dispersed population, has meant that massacres are unlikely.
I apreciate their work but i know our legislation and it only went worse over the years, we have a collector license but in reality the collections were frozen for years ,even the small good changes (i suspect introduced from europe) such as changing the date of "antique" firearms from 1870 to 1890, they inmediately managed to turn it away by restricting the possesion requirements of all antique firearms to the same level as modern semiautomatic pistol.
Gun legistlation in Europe will only get stricter over time. So you are basicly slowing it down at best. Some people are against gun ownership because they see all kinds of issues(most arent real though) and politicians who just pass new restrictions so they can say 'we made your world safer' even when they really didnt do anything good or meaningful.
People said the same thing here in the US. Look at Maltese gun regulation and you can see the power of incrementalism as exercised by a small group of tireless advocates who are civil and reasonable.
The US is a bit different. There is a large number of people who want to have guns and they represent a large proportion of the voters there. In the EU, apart from a few exceptions, the voting potential is just far too insignificant for it to be a factor in decisionmaking. There is also the perception that a weapon(legal or not) is always a danger that needs to be removed here. The number of people who believe guns should be banned altogether is proportionally quite large and in some countries definitly larger than in the US. These people do not even understand the need for collections and do not care if they dissapear. So going hard against guns is always something that scores points. I wish it was different but here in Belgium, gun laws have never changed in favour of gunowners, always to restrict property. The public opinion is that its a good direction and I see no reason to believe that that would change. I support these people, fighting for the possibility to have collections or simply owning a gun privately, I hope they can achieve more. But I just dont see them winning any 'major battles'. I admit that I dont know the law in Malta, it actually surprised me to see. But countries with these easier gun collecting laws are the exception, sadly.
Here in Germany we call it the Salami -tactic .(pepperoni tactic in the US I guess) Slice by slice they press for tiny changes that make it more expensive to own guns, more complicated to own guns, maintain guns. Like now you need very high rated safes, not just one, but two, one for the guns and one for the ammunition, and the safe needs super heavy or set in concrete. I know people who had to move or they quit shooting and gun owning , because they had no chance to transport these safes in their xth floor rental appartment or the floors were not rated for such weight in there. And when the political climate is right for them, like some school shooting some years ago. where the guy used a pumpgun, they got legislature to ban pumpguns because "legal gun owners don´t need pumpguns they can use other guns"
Because I live in The UK it’s incredibly difficult to get a firearms licence, so I collect deactivated firearms it helps me learn in part about the mechanics of these firearms and the EU directives MASSIVELY effects us they have now completely welded up the firearms so there are almost no moving parts and buying older specification deactivated firearms is now illegal....just to be shown they are doing something so they go after the easiest targets.
eberbacher007 shotgun licenses are different to firearms licenses. Got a shotgun license myself, they arent hard to get provided you dont have a violent criminal record - just have to be very patient waiting for PC plod to bother turning up and inspecting your gun cabinet and giving you the paper license. Firearms licenses are a pain in the arse. You need an individual license per gun and need to have a decent reason to own it - "i want one" doesnt seem to cut it.
The initial proposal of the EU Commission also planned to totally ban semi-automatice rifles that were initially full-auto weapons modified for semi-auto only.
It always comes down to safety, if people were safer around guns the only deaths and injuries would be caused by crime which has no bearing on firearms. If guns were normal and being safe around guns was normal, the injuries and deaths would lower. The crime rate is something completely separate and firearms don't change this. If a criminal wanted to kill someone but didn't have firearms, they would kill that person using something else. Crime is directly correlated to education and the support people have in their youth. Educating the young, getting them out of crime and organised crimes would reduce crime as a whole. We have the right to be safe and having guns for self-defence should be normal. Firearms law doesn't stop people getting firearms, they just stop people from getting them legally. If we had good people protecting the population we would all be much safer. Here in the UK knives have replaced guns, this doesn't help reduce crime this just changes how the crime is done. I'm a gamekeeper and firearms are central to my job, but laws restricting people from owning guns is affecting me directly. We need the freedom to own guns and use them safely and for protecting the population. I wouldn't want to be attacked with a firearm and have nothing to defend myself with. If we look at crimes committed with guns they are either illegal guns or uneducated/mentally ill people. Keeping the population safe doesn't mean restricting firearms, it means restricting people.
They made stupid laws even for the neutralised guns !!! In France, it was already very restricted: -it must have no trigger mecanics (so no dry firing), -bolt must be cut, no firing pin, and the firing pin hole must be welded -some metal must be welded inside the barrel So good luck for someone who wants to reactivated a deactivated guns with the old french law. But it seems bureaucrats in Brussels thought it was still possible. So now it is completly insane ! -Its have to be not possible to dissamble the guns (by welding the pins), for example to prevent to separate/open the lower and upper of an ar15 -the mag have to be welded (so unmovable) -if there is no mag, the mag hole have to be welded so no mag can be put on it. -And in France you have to register your neutralised guns at the prefecture of police ! It is just paranoia ! there were a very small market of deactivated guns in France. This market just completly disappear. I don't want fire arms, at all. Never. But I like to have replicas or deactivated guns because , well, its a passion. I am passionated by firearms: firearms technics , firearms history ect.... But It seems it make me very dangerous. Imagine I throw my replica to the face of someone !!! it could be very dangerous !...
I just hope politicians are smart enough to find this organisation as well so they can make some sensible laws about gun-collecting. But if we need to start carrying guns for selfprotection, we might need to chance politicians...
Felt like the outro was going to be "we are the world"... but seriously, i would like to collect firearms from blackpowder to batteries but laws are making it so difficult to get even .22 for hunting or target shooting... can't even do gunsmithing without education, and getting the license to get the education is so time and money consuming that a machinist can't afford it. Something is wrong in this world...
My experience in Germany. It is very difficult to get a license but it's possible. Currently I have none maybe later. For now I collect Bajonetts which dont requires any License.
I find it interesting how in some European countries, getting what you want can be the equivalent to a FFL an C&R license here in the USA or just straight up California level legislating you out of your sports and hobbies.
In the uk we are only allowed shotguns and bolt action rifles and you can only get a license for one if you have a valid reason for needing one like if you need it for pest control or a member of a gun club. You dont get a license for one just because you want one
Hi im from the netherlands i think we have the harderst rules in europe the police can show up unanounced to check your vaults ammo and the gun need diffrent vaults you have to write down where you go with it and take the shortest route to the range if u get checked and thats not the case you get problems this is for shooting guns collectables have diffrent rules i think dont know that part
niet helemaal correct, je mag gewoon je wapen in een wapen tas hebben in je auto, ongeladen en je magezijnen apart. het is wel correct dat de politie onaangekondigd mag aan bellen en je kluizen checken, vind ik verder prima. voor de rest valt t mee.
Mezelf Om dat hetkan ik had met een wapenhandelaar gesproken en die zij dat je het niet hoefde op te geven, gewoon in een afgesloten wapentas met slot en je munitie appart. voor de rest maakte get weinig uit zij hij9
As a Dane i think its good its mostly illegal, though if u have use like museum, hunting and so on it should be legal, and collectors shall aslo be ok as long as they have a license and authorites know where the guns are stored
We all know that you cant EVER legislate Terrorist out of your country. The leaders know this too, Point is collector or not , they will not stop until they only have firearms in 'Their' military or in the hands of the terrorist. Remember to a government, Crime pays. Keep fighting and never stop, support those who will fight full time against these bureaucrats (most unelected) and NEVER Vote for a liberal. If you won't expose who the enemy is you can't expect to win any freedoms.
Such is the feeling over Firearms and private ownership in Europe that Ian and Forgotten Weapons have been dragged into a Political Debate. Pity as we all love the channel for the history and knowledge and Ian's style. Good as it gives us a chance to air the problems and feelings with others who are knowlegable and good mannered. Thanks for the chance, but be careful Ian.
The subject is ultimately political, not in a partisan sense, because we all face a very political and common agenda to wipe out private ownership. The difference is in the style and speed with which it is applied. Knowledge is our best weapon and we should be fully aware of what is happening around us. We live in isolation at our own peril.
My guess is European governments are defiant about citizens owning firearms, especially nowadays with the coming crisis. Terrorism is a good alibi to propose restrictive laws against firearm ownership. Weapons involved in terrorist attacks and organised crime are vastly coming from black market and smuggling networks (e.g ex-Yugo countries). If the end purpose was to prevent crime and terrorist attacks, they would try to bust these criminal networks by putting emphasis on custom controls at EU borders or seize illegal weapons depot already existing in most big European cities suburbs. (Which they might already do.)
And politicians don't understanding what they are voting for. Most of the eu-politicians from Germany proudly posted that they managed to prevent any additional restrictions for German gun owners after the new eu-legislation passed. That is simply not true (which also the German government stated. But this was after the lgesilation passed). But they didn't know better, despite thousands of German gun owners telling them otherwise. There are severe problems in the eu. The eu firearms legislation showed many of them. There were huge mistakes made. Rules for making new legislation weren't followed. Voices pointing out that mistakes were ignored. The procedure in which the legislation went through was against the rules. There are taken legal actions against the legislation because of the illegal procedure, but I can tell you right now that this legislation is here to stay. No matter what the court will decide.
Yes France and Germany probably have the most influence in the EU. I also have the suspicion they let the EU make the restriction so they can say afterwards: "Oh we didn't want these restrictions. But we are in the EU and have to apply". Eventhough they were the ones who proposed them. The EU is pretty much universally hated so it doesn't really matter if they are hated even more. The national politicians can keep their hands clean that way.
Legal weapon can very easily become illegal weapon so puting such a distinction is pointless and factually incorrect. What is in fact correct is that determined criminals will find one way or another to aquier weapons doesnt matter if there is legal supply. Either by illegal import/manufacturing or by substituting. Driving truck in to the crowd is usually allmost as effective as shooting and you cant ban trucks.
Their campaign unfortunately did not save deactivated gun collectors from the laws being changed in 2016 and again this year. Moving steadily towards fully welded no moving parts deacts in EU.
The changes to the regulations on deactivated firearms were introduced as a Regulation, which unlike a Directive, must be adopted in its entirety by all Member States. It was only later that the British Rapporteur responsible for this file tried to dilute the impact by including the technical requirements for deactivation in the talks about the Directive. Nevertheless, owners of deactivated guns ended up worst hit. However, let me add that that the deactivation of guns is nothing more than institutionalised vandalism, which was introduced by politicians and bureaucrats who cannot see further than the tip of their noses. How much better it would have been to allow licensed collectors to acquire and keep live firearms, which are registered with the authorities.
EU politicians aren't involved in some anti-gun conspiracy. It's just the way politics works. Gun crimes generate a lot of public outrage and controversy, so politicians have to "do something" to reduce gun violence, which usually means stricter restrictions on legal ownership. Unlike the US, there isn't a strong "gun culture" (or constitutional endorsement of gun ownership) in most European countries, so less people oppose these restrictions getting passed.
I feel, I keep up to date with German politics due to being a German and American citizen and it sucks big time. I’ve thought about moving back there multiple times but i’m not willing to give up my family collection of historic firearms worth thousands.
You can have full autos only with a collector's license and the european legislative can't change that. Problem comes with open bolt semi autos and other "converted from full auto weapons". Our government basically gives you a free collector's pass for guns you already have that are like that, but nobody really knows what's gonna happen once the new legislative comes to play. It's supposed to stop us from having more than 10 round mags without the collector's license or a pass. We think that our government is just gonna issue free passes for everyone for the guns and mags that they want to buy, but it might get restricted. We for example don't know at all what's gonna happen to guns bought after 17.6.2017. It's gonna work out somehow, hopefully.
Luisito Bardaji Benitez nobody knows for sure. If the eu pushes too hard, this is probably gonna be it. They're trying to write a whole new gun law but they're taking their time for sure.
vojtasTS29 I do understand that goverments are hessitant to give private citizens firearms, they are by their very nature designed to kill. I just feel like they could change who gets them, not what they get.
this video made me really pissed off. hopefully as a last ditch plan FESAC could ship over these priceless artifacts to be held in american vaults until europe becomes sane again. collectors and museums are not the problem, terrorists are.
I definitely advocate very strict gun control, but one should still be able to collect firearms. It should require a thorough and strict procedure, but it shouldn't be made impossible. Outright outlawing arms collecting, and destroying collections just wouldn't be the right way of doing things. Weapons are, unfortunately, part of world history and should be treated as such in these cases.
There is no such country called Europe which many americans seem to think (it's like saying Africa is a country). Europe is the part of Eurasia, that lies west of the Ural mountain chain and north of Bosporus and the Caucasus Mountains. There are many sovereign countries in Europe and not all of them are in the European Union, which I think is what you may be refering too with "Europe"? The European Union is by no means similar to the federal government of USA. First of all the european commission is not elected by the public nor is it democratic and the EU-president is not elected by public, democratic elections like the US-president. Generally speaking the EU is not a democratic government, but a cooperation between countries in west and central Europe. For example I live in Denmark and we have our own gun laws, which are not EU-gun laws. And Greenland and the Faroe Islands, which are both parts of Denmark (the Kingdom of Denmark) with some autonomy and neither are members of the EU, also have their own gun laws, which are different from the ones in Denmark. You are defenitely moving into complicated territory, if you want to cover all the different gun laws in each country in Europe. Its like a more diverse US state by state gun law system but with no central government ;)...
I like the way The Netherlands does it, you have to be a member of a certified gun club for atleadt a tear before you are eligible for a license and to keep weapons in your home you have to have a gun safe that js either, bolted into the wall and floor or a safe that is 200kg of heavier. in your first year you can only have one, after that up to five. if you have a collectors license, you can have as many as you want. if you have the right paperwork you can even have full auto weapons. Also, no caliber restrictions.
Similar in Germany, but full auto guns are strictly forbidden. And what's there to like? You need to pay huge amounts of money for club memberships, the license and the fucking safe before you can even buy a gun. And such a safe might be too heavy for an apartment floor, for example. So just because of that you might never own a gun.
Kind the same in Brazil, with more restrictions. Markus is right. That's not a public safety issue, it's a corporative issue. The cost of owning/collecting is insane and you obliged to sustain a kafkian bureaucracy that only wants to increase in size, adding new rules... By the way, despite all those heavy restrictions, Brazil had more firearms deaths than Syria last year... So here, an example on how useful those laws are.
I have to be frank, I voted for the UK to leave the Eu, the commissions unfounded restrictions on shooting in countries where they have a strong tradition of shooting (UK) was a frankly insulting, over the top knee jerk reaction and one which has no sensible basis in law and has no impact upon the armed criminals making full use of the open borders they have created. The Eu a bad experiment that has gone on too long!
The right of the EU to keep and bear a private army shall not be infringed. There, European gun rights.lol I know that not every country is bad, but compared to the US most European gun laws look close to authoritarian.
Tragicomedic (plans of) restriction/destruction while people of criminal intent can rather easily acquire weapons illegally from post-Soviet area of interest countries or non-EU neighboring countries. This law would have protected no one.
Observation: They don’t have the Second Amendment and we do. So they have to get licenses from the jump. (Paraphrased) Ok. Fine. Now...re-listen to this European guy describe “sovereign nations” being subservient to EU bureaucrats in Brussels. Again...”sovereign nations / states” And it’s not an EU with enumerated boundaries in scope and power. It’s an EU that deep dives into some of the most asinine of subjects: example - how many minutes of video can a digital camera record vs a digital video recorder. I didn’t just make that up, either. That’s real. I am not being unkind or disrespectful, but all of these people are way too willing to end up in the same place: be it by commissars at the point of a gun or EU commissions at the point of a pen. These EU types keep using that word sovereign. It doesn’t mean what they think it means. Regards, Marky
Matt Clarke the netherlands, in 1890 the goverment just went up and said, no more weapons so you guys can overthrow us. and later they chilled a bit, and now with a bit of time and effort you can basicly get anything
Yes. The UK, due to new EU rules, people are now allowed to buy expanding ammunition here, without it being a condition on their licences. So due to being IN the EU we have gained new rights and lost nothing. Brexiteers take note, our own government is way more anti-gun than the EU. Make our own laws? Be careful what you wish for!
Thanks very much for this video and to Mr. Petroni for explaining some of the issues, the back and forth in the EU-Parliament and how the situation presents itself within the EU at the present juncture. It is very important to keep the conversation going, cooperate with each other and make sure that professionals, museums and conscientious gun owners can continue their craft here and over the pond.
As an individual living in Europe, I'm very happy that organizations like this exist. People who are talking sense and bringing it to the people in charge, and thank you Ian for helping them get some more recognition. Because at the end of the day, this isn't even about guns. It's about taking a firm stance when the people in power are making a mistake. It's about standing up and presenting the real facts and figures when the people in charge are talking about making sweeping changes based on incorrect information. ESPECIALLY when these changes are happening just for the sake of making it look like they are doing something about a problem they don't even seem to understand.
The people they are talking to arent remotely interested in facts, they're politicians.
Precisely why we need these groups.
Vulf Faolán oh, i agree. However, and feel free to call me a cynical old bastard, i dont think theyll listen. Its not starting mass hashtags or, and this is the real kicker, if no politician from any party talks about it, it wont cost them any votes because there is no alternative.
You're not wrong, ya cynical old bastard. But it's important to fight in any way we can.
Kushan, Add me to the list of COB.
I met Stephen and his son in their shop while I visited Malta. Both are very knowledgable people and they took a long time during regular business hours to discuss various gun topics with me. Their invetory is also something you definetly don't see everyday in Europe.
If you are a gun enthusiast visting Malta I can only recommend to pay them a visit.
Axel Thank you. It was a pleasure meeting you.
The fact that they can pass law of destruction to museum collections as well as private ownership is scary.
The very idea that a radical terrorist attack would motivate a government to legislate/deactivate/destroy guns in state/private museum collections is pretty terrifying. That is entirely counterintuitive. It wreaks of authoritarian motivations. Why in the world would functional full auto museum pieces be a threat to society? It's not like ISIS was raiding museum vaults for 50+ year old weaponry when they can get modern weapons on the black market easily.
Indeed, this is pretty bad - but then again: The damned governments all over Europe didn't like armed citizens and they still don't, they don't like it that the people could overthrow them if they were armed! In the days of old weapons (blades mostly) were carried by aristocracy (which mostly supported their way of government - nobles would help other nobles to keep oppressing ordinary people and being armed helped) and later on that included sworn federal officers (not only the military and police!)...but arming the population? Nope, they tried their level best to keep any sorts of weapons away from the hands of normal people :(
Sadly this applies to experts, too - seriously, the only experts on weaponry in Europe that can really practice their craft are gun-designers (working at big gun companies like Heckler und Koch!), soldiers and people working for the police - others can't have any fully automatic weapons (in most European countries, there is some exceptions!), despite the fact that legal gun owners are very unlikely to commit crimes (they want to keep their licenses for weapons, so they have to have a spotless record!) :(
Does this stop terrorism? No, I mean Ian here showed us P.A. Luty's machine gun and his book is available through Amazon (or various other means!), which means everybody could really make a working machine-gun in his freaking garage :( - Gun-Control doesn't work! In fact it works as badly as the war on drugs (meaning: Not at all!), all it does is criminalize people for no gain in security :(
Not to mention that terrorists can buy all sorts of things on the black market (poison, guns, grenades, rockets (and launchers) etc. etc.) :( - I bet that those guys that shot up Charlie Hebdo (spelling?) didn't rob a collector to get their weapons :(
ps: Legalize all guns (no, not rocket-launchers and stuff like that, but all - even fully automatic - firearms!)!
Smells of incompetence and the needs to be seen doing something rather than authoritarianism. ISIS isn't using museum pieces, but neither would people be using it to overthrow the government.
It is called politics, as the man from FESAC pointed out they just want to be seen as doing something to combat terrorism without actually having to do much. It is stupidity and political manoeuvring and it should be opposed. However, it is not some authoritarian plot to collect all the arms in the EU. Stupidity happens in every democracy. Dumb laws are passed by Congress, by the EU parliament, by the UK parliament and so on. What we need to do is be active as this gentleman is, so that we do not allow for stupid laws to see the light of day.
They can and THEY ARE doing it right now :) Freaking ignorants... Every EU country has to accept the newest legislation according to which a collector weapons have to be destroyed.
Seems like politicians everywhere only really care about the appearance of of doing good work rather than actually doing good work.
So very very very very true!
Headlines = Votes, as in the case of the UK at the moment a lot of point scoring from certain poloticans, knowing full well they will never have to take the responsobility of thier actions.
The proplem is that everyone wants diffarent things so it dont maek sense
A bureaucrat's job and livelyhood is inherently dependent on the existence of a problem. Therefore the bureaucrat is incentivised to maintain the problem and not solve it.
Congrats you have discovered the truth of career politics
Just imagine if the politicians demanded museums cut all their swords in half, because they wanted to reduce knife crime.
Don't even think about it! The politicians can come up with enough stupidity as it. The fanatics vote for loony's at eletcions, As for the rest of us, we are just trying to survive.
They did so, after Japan's surrender the
destroyed thousands of swords, including irreplaceable antiques.
@Illinois Dope no they always have done the opposite ban big scary knives not the small ones
You did a great job just listening to him. As he was talking I had about 40 different questions for him. Fascinating topic!
Rock Island Auction Company Feel free to ask. That’s what we’re here for!
A very articulate and knowledgeable man speaking fluently in what is, I assume, is not his native language. Impressive to say the least!
Ian Pendlebury He's Maltese so he is most likely fluent in Maltese, English, and Italian.
Boreas74 TY, I was trying to place his accent. I give myself a pass for not thinking of Malta.
Twirlip Of The Mists I live in Malta so I have an advantage :)
So THAT's what it was! I was torn between two thoughts this entire video, "What a wonderful fellow and what a noble thing he does" and "Where the actual fuck is he from???" That's an accent I've never heard before and I'm pleased to hear it now.
I'm not sure who your reply is aimed at, but my answer to your implied question is that most English speakers are too lazy to bother to become fluent in another language largely because English seems to have become a fairly universal language (I say this as a typically lazy Englishman!) . My original comment was to congratulate him first and foremost on his knowledge and then also on his fluency in English, both of which are both admirable and enviable.
Respect for keeping the politics away from this, the fascination for firearms history and mechanics does not have to be intertwined with the self defence debate.
Mirodin history is history. An FG-42 is as much a relic of history to be studied as it is a plinker.
They didnt make it political free in fact the whole video and discussion was political and thats good. Since the political issue is right to colect firearms. What you mean by not making it political is that they didnt bring up political fractions, parties officials by the name with is also good since it leads to nothing constructive.
Wladislav more the politics involved not if their right or wrong
Well, its a pro-gun lobby organization thats arguing pro-gun. So: politics.
Thats how democracy works. You look out for some people share your interest, group together and have an argument.
Honestly the self defense debate is probably the weakest talking point in the gun control debates. There is too much going against it especially if we are discussing military and automatic weapons.
Finally, someone trying to do something about those curator thugs shooting up the place with often fragile experimental machine dakkas.
Making museums get a permit for a standard capacity magazine on a inert gun is the craziest gun law I have ever heard. Even if the museum went under they would not let someone walk in off the street an buy it.
The big problem is that some criminals in Europe used to get via legit ways functioning pieces of automatic guns to build a complete functioning gun
No, the only real problem was that some states badly deactivated weapons. There are some guns that are deactivated only to state that they can fire blanks automatically. These weapons were used to buy some terrorists.
Polish law lists "crucial weapon parts", which are considered firearms by the law (yes, if you dig up rusted remnants of a WWII rifle and don't immediately give it up, it still has a "barrel with chamber attached", so you are now in posession of an illegal firearm and can be sent to prison for a time between six months and eight years), but a magazine is not on that list. Anyone can buy a magazine of ANY capacity at any time. The only capacity limitation applies to hunting, where it is illegal to hunt with a semi-automatic weapon that is "designed to be loaded with more than two rounds at a time".
I'm bringing that up because even our 1999 firearms law that's barely been updated for all that time and is full of as many weird loopholes as any law you can think of (you can't store your gun in a gun safe, ownership of which is mandatory, that isn't yours, but you can lend your gun to another gun owner and then they can store it in their safe, but that only works for hunters and sportsmen, because collectors license wasn't originally included, so a collector cannot lend or be lent any guns ever), whoever formulated it knew that magazines and magazine capacity is not something to be regulated, as it makes no sense.
Thanks to people like Mr Petroni and other members in FESAC and Firearms United Europe we can still enjoy our collections and sport shooting in Europe. Remember gunnies from around the globe that 3 worse enemies of our guns are rust, legislators and politicians. Like what Mr Petroni and Mr Mc Callum said we have to be united because 1 thing that happens to one place will influence the outcome in another. One last thing is that we have to remember that we are ambassadors of our sports, so we have to act responsibly, we should not forget that we are dealing with a sensitive subject.
Researchers going to museum collections only to find the guns deactivated would be like historians going to museum archives only to find that they're full of blank books.
i highly doubt a historian would need to shoot any antique gun in order to study it. At least for most categories in its history unless they are trying to research the range/rate of fire/those types of factors, though i assume most of that info is readily available.
Would you study antique cars without ever driving them?
+Ares S.
No Some things can only be fully understood by using them/seeing them in action. Same reason why things like experimental archaeology exist - people can speculate all day about why something might be the way it is, what this piece might do, what mechanical purpose it might have had. Best way to find out is to use it.
More like studying antique cars with the engine and drive train removed.
All gun owners of every type and variety in every country need to unite to protect each other. #allgunsmatter
From what?
I'm glad to see there's an organization in europe that aims to expand individual liberty and pursue the preservation of history, nice to start the day with a warm fuzzy feeling.
Great discussion. This also applies within the united states. We often ignore what is happening in CA or NY or NJ, but you can bet that it will be used as a test bed for a restriction coming to your state. We need to stick together and fight these restrictions wherever they come.
Just wanted to validate what the dude said about Ian's work. I never shot a gun, probably never will own one (seems expensive and an hassle, although those 2-gun matches sounds like a fun hobby), but he does a great job of showing what is interesting and fun about firearms and that you can be a total gun nut without also being civil and reasonable.
You should look into what has happened to deactivated weapon collectors in Europe, they have seen the value of their collections slashed because of all the EU rules being forced on them. In the last couple of years the laws have changed at least 3 times if I remember correctly. It's crazy.
In France, as from August 1st 2018, deactivated weapons will be upgraded in category C (thus subjected to registration), in the event of sale between private individuals, it will thus be mandatory to pass by a broker or an arms dealer to proceed to the registration!
Why register a piece of scrap metal (that's what it became with those new specs)?
To proceed mass confiscation in future.
I imagine you'll eventually have to register the thought of a gun
it's maybe the purpose?
Its not the weapon its the person! My 17 year old daughter could not buy a knife fork and spoon set for college in the UK due to the law. A butter knife!! So the london knife murders have increased makes no sense to me criminals will always get weapons!! Its mad if I could own a pistol I would. Am I liable to commit mass murder NO
loxxxton poxxxton its the UK way - we punish the law abiding for actions the criminal takes.
Did you hear about the guy up north who is currently awaiting sentencing for having a potato peeler on him? Yeah. Really serving the public interest by sentencing him.
kushan101 its madness
Khan needs to go why any of u would vote for Islam leading ur city is crazy wake up
I think it's a lot more fundamental than the weapons . I think it is a basic human right that should be acknowledged in every country that no state has the right to forbid any individual from defending himself from attack . It logically follows that for bidding a competent self-defense is equally unjust . The fact that more than half of the nations in the world require their citizenry to flee or die in the face of attack is astounding and speaks to the core values of their bodies politic . They value state power significantly more than the value the rights of lives of their citizens . Getting into the triviality of which tools can be used or not this is the key point to the right of capable self-defense .
Great to see that fellow collectors in Europe have an organization like FESAC to help preserve our history.
Very informative, thanks for putting this up Ian.
*Slaps roof of EU* "This bad boy can fit so many shitty laws in it"
Fantastic topic I was unaware of and many thanks to bringing it to the US firearm community. There is much we can do to help each other out across the globe in this matter. Thanks for posting!
The Czech Republic has been a good example of how to respect gun ownership and use in the European context. Collectors can own even full auto guns, and concealed carry for self defense is legal with a license. The system isn't perfect, and it's always under threat, but it's better than some states in America.
I'm sure that even the UK will have better gun rights than California or New York in a few years.
Perhaps things will improve for those states as the Supreme Court and lower courts get more judges who will respect the Second Amendment, if nothing else.
I wish those guys the best of luck!
The EU and most western European countries are destroying their own history.
The knowledge of some fascinating firearms may be lost forever if we don't tread carefully.
Lol magazine capacity. " it doesn't affect collectors" right after "it affects collectors( of military firearms)" that means it affects collectors.
Learned a lot. Thank you for this, Ian! So thankful to be American. Would love to see a much more gun friendly Europe. Imagine all of the unique talent and designs the world will miss out on because of the restricting gun laws on our friends across the way...
This was super interesting and informative, Thank you Ian! Hope to see these continue.
Very well done video which excellently puts forward the view that collectors are not the people that are the cause of violent related crimes. All authorities should be addressing the people involved in these crimes and not the means by which they carry them out with.
A license for a magazine...
I recognised you France !
At least you can get such a licence in France - in Germany, those licences simply don’t exist, you can’t legally own magazines above certain capacity limits.
It seems like I got the STA 1924 mags out of there just in time, somehow. No wonder the seller was motivated.
Well, some politicians in Sweden want to equate magazines to the same legal status as a firearm.
Not going to be fun.
Any maganzines are legal to own in Germany. You just can't use high capacitiy for sport shooting or hunting. Owning is no problem at all as they are not viewed as gun parts. Don't spread misinformation please.
In Austria, you can own all capacities of magazines.
i still think is is absurd that countries that seem to understand that abstinence education is a disaster everywhere else, seem to think it is a good idea regarding kinetic and cyber weapons. knowledge should not be feared. historians, researchers, and collectors help protect us from repeating the blunders of history whether that blunder is one of design, deployment, or the laws around a matter. not knowing how people before you have failed in a thing makes it infinitely harder to avoid the pitfalls they fell into. where having working examples of the things that actually worked means you can replicate that success far easier.
I love this collaboration! I hope to see many more of this kind in the future.
Ian this was a very good video. Thanks for bringing us this perspective!
6:49 - by now in this video, I understand why Britain wanted to leave. Not that Britain was ever a bastion of firearm-collectors' rights, but - at some point - sane people and countries would tell the European Union to just go to hell with their over-regulation tendencies. That's just ridiculous the the European Union would attempt to treat all participating countries as one country as if they were operating under an oppressive dictatorship / oligarchy.
Did you watch the video? The EU, itself, tried to govern all of its members in as far as automatic weapons.
Hi Ian!!! Could you plz make a video about Kalthoff Repeater Flintlock? I have heard something about it but I can't find its mechanics online, I wonder if it's like the Lorenzoni's. I'm sure you will be so interested in this early "assault rifle" too!
5:27 you can see the pain in his face.
Simon Stoll “deactivate” and or destroy
YIKES!
Hi Ian, excellent commentary as always. Here in Australia, following a series of spectacle gun massacres, all automatic firearms were compulsorily purchased by the government. Fair prices were paid. So military style automatic weapons are mostly off our streets. However various gangs still manage to sneak them past our customs. These are for the most part 9mms pistols, though some big boys have slipped through. I am an avid viewer, with a life long interest in firearms, who has never owned a gun funny. Shooting ranges, where an individual can hire a very wide variety of weapons, pistols and automatics, such as M14, AK47, etc can be hired at great cost, way beyond ammunition cost, due to the supervision of newbie shooters, etc. I must give this a go one day. In New Zealand, many .308 hunting weapons of a bolt action type are used by farmers as here, but I believe the policing of a very small and widely dispersed population, has meant that massacres are unlikely.
Hey Ian can you do some more overviews/histories of famous firearms companies/brands?
He has done videos like that. Search: Forgotten Weapons and add the manufacturer or brand name ( i.e. Forgotten Weapons Colt ).
Here in Spain we have in theory a collectors license, in practice is almost impossible to collect anything but muzzleloaders.
Not quite. Speak to ANARMA. They are working hard to introduce a Collector Licence.
I apreciate their work but i know our legislation and it only went worse over the years, we have a collector license but in reality the collections were frozen for years ,even the small good changes (i suspect introduced from europe) such as changing the date of "antique" firearms from 1870 to 1890, they inmediately managed to turn it away by restricting the possesion requirements of all antique firearms to the same level as modern semiautomatic pistol.
Gun legistlation in Europe will only get stricter over time. So you are basicly slowing it down at best. Some people are against gun ownership because they see all kinds of issues(most arent real though) and politicians who just pass new restrictions so they can say 'we made your world safer' even when they really didnt do anything good or meaningful.
People said the same thing here in the US. Look at Maltese gun regulation and you can see the power of incrementalism as exercised by a small group of tireless advocates who are civil and reasonable.
The US is a bit different. There is a large number of people who want to have guns and they represent a large proportion of the voters there. In the EU, apart from a few exceptions, the voting potential is just far too insignificant for it to be a factor in decisionmaking.
There is also the perception that a weapon(legal or not) is always a danger that needs to be removed here. The number of people who believe guns should be banned altogether is proportionally quite large and in some countries definitly larger than in the US. These people do not even understand the need for collections and do not care if they dissapear. So going hard against guns is always something that scores points.
I wish it was different but here in Belgium, gun laws have never changed in favour of gunowners, always to restrict property. The public opinion is that its a good direction and I see no reason to believe that that would change.
I support these people, fighting for the possibility to have collections or simply owning a gun privately, I hope they can achieve more. But I just dont see them winning any 'major battles'. I admit that I dont know the law in Malta, it actually surprised me to see. But countries with these easier gun collecting laws are the exception, sadly.
Perceptions can be changed. It's not done rapidly, but it can absolutely be done.
I hope they will be changed, I really do, but I'm still pessimistic.
Anyways, thanks for replying, really enjoy your work.
Here in Germany we call it the Salami -tactic .(pepperoni tactic in the US I guess)
Slice by slice they press for tiny changes that make it more expensive to own guns, more complicated to own guns, maintain guns. Like now you need very high rated safes, not just one, but two, one for the guns and one for the ammunition, and the safe needs super heavy or set in concrete.
I know people who had to move or they quit shooting and gun owning , because they had no chance to transport these safes in their xth floor rental appartment or the floors were not rated for such weight in there.
And when the political climate is right for them, like some school shooting some years ago. where the guy used a pumpgun, they got legislature to ban pumpguns because "legal gun owners don´t need pumpguns they can use other guns"
Because I live in The UK it’s incredibly difficult to get a firearms licence, so I collect deactivated firearms it helps me learn in part about the mechanics of these firearms and the EU directives MASSIVELY effects us they have now completely welded up the firearms so there are almost no moving parts and buying older specification deactivated firearms is now illegal....just to be shown they are doing something so they go after the easiest targets.
People in Ireland told me that farmers can at least get a license for a shotgun very easily
eberbacher007 shotgun licenses are different to firearms licenses.
Got a shotgun license myself, they arent hard to get provided you dont have a violent criminal record - just have to be very patient waiting for PC plod to bother turning up and inspecting your gun cabinet and giving you the paper license.
Firearms licenses are a pain in the arse. You need an individual license per gun and need to have a decent reason to own it - "i want one" doesnt seem to cut it.
Ah ok, here in Germany shotguns are also classified as firearms.
Thank you so much for these video !!!!.
The E.U rules on deactivating firearms is to strip out all the working mechanisms and weld them into a solid mass, utterly destroying them.
The initial proposal of the EU Commission also planned to totally ban semi-automatice rifles that were initially full-auto weapons modified for semi-auto only.
Bureaucracy to obtain a gun in my country: it's all so tiresome.
For some reason this fella really reminds me of Lebedev from S.T.A.L.K.E.R.: Clear Sky
It always comes down to safety, if people were safer around guns the only deaths and injuries would be caused by crime which has no bearing on firearms. If guns were normal and being safe around guns was normal, the injuries and deaths would lower. The crime rate is something completely separate and firearms don't change this. If a criminal wanted to kill someone but didn't have firearms, they would kill that person using something else. Crime is directly correlated to education and the support people have in their youth. Educating the young, getting them out of crime and organised crimes would reduce crime as a whole. We have the right to be safe and having guns for self-defence should be normal. Firearms law doesn't stop people getting firearms, they just stop people from getting them legally. If we had good people protecting the population we would all be much safer. Here in the UK knives have replaced guns, this doesn't help reduce crime this just changes how the crime is done.
I'm a gamekeeper and firearms are central to my job, but laws restricting people from owning guns is affecting me directly. We need the freedom to own guns and use them safely and for protecting the population. I wouldn't want to be attacked with a firearm and have nothing to defend myself with.
If we look at crimes committed with guns they are either illegal guns or uneducated/mentally ill people. Keeping the population safe doesn't mean restricting firearms, it means restricting people.
Great conversation 👍🏼👍🏼
'Don't have an isolationist view' - for collecting, shooting, anything. We need to hang together or we'll hang apart.
That was a very interesting video thank you both for the lessons
I'd like Ian to cover the Czech Republic Response to that 2015 gun ownership ban : en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_Czech_Republic
15:00 what a nice moment!
great stuff
They made stupid laws even for the neutralised guns !!!
In France, it was already very restricted:
-it must have no trigger mecanics (so no dry firing),
-bolt must be cut, no firing pin, and the firing pin hole must be welded
-some metal must be welded inside the barrel
So good luck for someone who wants to reactivated a deactivated guns with the old french law.
But it seems bureaucrats in Brussels thought it was still possible.
So now it is completly insane !
-Its have to be not possible to dissamble the guns (by welding the pins), for example to prevent to separate/open the lower and upper of an ar15
-the mag have to be welded (so unmovable)
-if there is no mag, the mag hole have to be welded so no mag can be put on it.
-And in France you have to register your neutralised guns at the prefecture of police !
It is just paranoia !
there were a very small market of deactivated guns in France. This market just completly disappear.
I don't want fire arms, at all. Never. But I like to have replicas or deactivated guns because , well, its a passion. I am passionated by firearms: firearms technics , firearms history ect.... But It seems it make me very dangerous. Imagine I throw my replica to the face of someone !!! it could be very dangerous !...
Well said!!
I just hope politicians are smart enough to find this organisation as well so they can make some sensible laws about gun-collecting. But if we need to start carrying guns for selfprotection, we might need to chance politicians...
Ian you rock from South Africa
Felt like the outro was going to be "we are the world"... but seriously, i would like to collect firearms from blackpowder to batteries but laws are making it so difficult to get even .22 for hunting or target shooting... can't even do gunsmithing without education, and getting the license to get the education is so time and money consuming that a machinist can't afford it. Something is wrong in this world...
My experience in Germany. It is very difficult to get a license but it's possible. Currently I have none maybe later. For now I collect Bajonetts which dont requires any License.
thank you to Mr. Stephen Petroni , from a Swed living in Malta for your service and dedication to these issues.
Props for keeping this channel free of politics. Too bad same couldn't be said for inRangeTV.
Every day I think about how draconian our firearms Las are in Canada, and then I look over across the pond.
I find it interesting how in some European countries, getting what you want can be the equivalent to a FFL an C&R license here in the USA or just straight up California level legislating you out of your sports and hobbies.
I collect firearms and foster/rehabilitate large breeds of dogs I see many many similar argument and bans that are illogical or useless for both.
Ian is moving up in the world
In the uk we are only allowed shotguns and bolt action rifles and you can only get a license for one if you have a valid reason for needing one like if you need it for pest control or a member of a gun club. You dont get a license for one just because you want one
After reading many of these comments I too hope for the arrival of the end days.
Never read the comments. Ever, anywhere.
Forgotten Weapons But then how am I to read this comment? What constitutes as a comment? As anywhere? How deep does the rabbit hole
go........
Unkown in France and funfact: a new law came late june here, and again: collectors and shooters are screwed!!!
Le Feu aux poudres arme déclaré, arme à moitié volée ;)
C'est de location à la préfecture ;)
Hi im from the netherlands i think we have the harderst rules in europe the police can show up unanounced to check your vaults ammo and the gun need diffrent vaults you have to write down where you go with it and take the shortest route to the range if u get checked and thats not the case you get problems this is for shooting guns collectables have diffrent rules i think dont know that part
Same in germany
niet helemaal correct, je mag gewoon je wapen in een wapen tas hebben in je auto, ongeladen en je magezijnen apart. het is wel correct dat de politie onaangekondigd mag aan bellen en je kluizen checken, vind ik verder prima. voor de rest valt t mee.
Luisito Bardaji Benitez Wat is er niet correct ik zeg toch dat je m mag vervoeren maar wel moet opgeven waarheen?
Mezelf Om dat hetkan ik had met een wapenhandelaar gesproken en die zij dat je het niet hoefde op te geven, gewoon in een afgesloten wapentas met slot en je munitie appart. voor de rest maakte get weinig uit zij hij9
Still, the Netherlands is one of those European countries where you may collect automatic firearms.
Praise be Gun Jesus.
Praise be!
Your talking about Ian
This is a very wholesome video
As a Dane i think its good its mostly illegal, though if u have use like museum, hunting and so on it should be legal, and collectors shall aslo be ok as long as they have a license and authorites know where the guns are stored
You should team up with Polenar Tactical and do the laws for Slovenia
as a European, this was quite interesting.
I really want to hear that guy say "rich corinthian leather!"
Try me :D
We all know that you cant EVER legislate Terrorist out of your country. The leaders know this too, Point is collector or not , they will not stop until they only have firearms in 'Their' military or in the hands of the terrorist. Remember to a government, Crime pays. Keep fighting and never stop, support those who will fight full time against these bureaucrats (most unelected) and NEVER Vote for a liberal. If you won't expose who the enemy is you can't expect to win any freedoms.
Introducing collector licenses. And that's how freedom dies.
Such is the feeling over Firearms and private ownership in Europe that Ian and Forgotten Weapons have been dragged into a Political Debate. Pity as we all love the channel for the history and knowledge and Ian's style. Good as it gives us a chance to air the problems and feelings with others who are knowlegable and good mannered. Thanks for the chance, but be careful Ian.
The subject is ultimately political, not in a partisan sense, because we all face a very political and common agenda to wipe out private ownership. The difference is in the style and speed with which it is applied. Knowledge is our best weapon and we should be fully aware of what is happening around us. We live in isolation at our own peril.
Oh so true. ,
My guess is European governments are defiant about citizens owning firearms, especially nowadays with the coming crisis. Terrorism is a good alibi to propose restrictive laws against firearm ownership. Weapons involved in terrorist attacks and organised crime are vastly coming from black market and smuggling networks (e.g ex-Yugo countries).
If the end purpose was to prevent crime and terrorist attacks, they would try to bust these criminal networks by putting emphasis on custom controls at EU borders or seize illegal weapons depot already existing in most big European cities suburbs. (Which they might already do.)
And politicians don't understanding what they are voting for.
Most of the eu-politicians from Germany proudly posted that they managed to prevent any additional restrictions for German gun owners after the new eu-legislation passed. That is simply not true (which also the German government stated. But this was after the lgesilation passed). But they didn't know better, despite thousands of German gun owners telling them otherwise.
There are severe problems in the eu. The eu firearms legislation showed many of them. There were huge mistakes made. Rules for making new legislation weren't followed. Voices pointing out that mistakes were ignored. The procedure in which the legislation went through was against the rules. There are taken legal actions against the legislation because of the illegal procedure, but I can tell you right now that this legislation is here to stay. No matter what the court will decide.
Europe at least western Europe is just about finished.
Yes France and Germany probably have the most influence in the EU.
I also have the suspicion they let the EU make the restriction so they can say afterwards: "Oh we didn't want these restrictions. But we are in the EU and have to apply". Eventhough they were the ones who proposed them.
The EU is pretty much universally hated so it doesn't really matter if they are hated even more. The national politicians can keep their hands clean that way.
Legal weapon can very easily become illegal weapon so puting such a distinction is pointless and factually incorrect. What is in fact correct is that determined criminals will find one way or another to aquier weapons doesnt matter if there is legal supply. Either by illegal import/manufacturing or by substituting. Driving truck in to the crowd is usually allmost as effective as shooting and you cant ban trucks.
MrMleczkp. We are talking about Europe. Not the U.S. Every legal gun is registered.
The Danger comes from illegal guns.
Luty was a saint.
Their campaign unfortunately did not save deactivated gun collectors from the laws being changed in 2016 and again this year. Moving steadily towards fully welded no moving parts deacts in EU.
The changes to the regulations on deactivated firearms were introduced as a Regulation, which unlike a Directive, must be adopted in its entirety by all Member States. It was only later that the British Rapporteur responsible for this file tried to dilute the impact by including the technical requirements for deactivation in the talks about the Directive. Nevertheless, owners of deactivated guns ended up worst hit. However, let me add that that the deactivation of guns is nothing more than institutionalised vandalism, which was introduced by politicians and bureaucrats who cannot see further than the tip of their noses. How much better it would have been to allow licensed collectors to acquire and keep live firearms, which are registered with the authorities.
Ian, your patience in this video should earn you a sainthood. Damn.
I just hit me when I was watching this video. Ian looks like a Bobblehead doll when he's listening to the gentleman.
He should cover german gun laws. It would drive him crazy.
Gotta love all this "freedom" we have here in the EU, and how all the bureaucrats always try to "enhance" it, eh?
Tom but eu bad, us good!
*_THE EU IS AN UNGODLY ABOMINATION UPON EUROPE!_*
... subjugation of national sovereignty to directives from Brussels...
EU politicians aren't involved in some anti-gun conspiracy. It's just the way politics works. Gun crimes generate a lot of public outrage and controversy, so politicians have to "do something" to reduce gun violence, which usually means stricter restrictions on legal ownership. Unlike the US, there isn't a strong "gun culture" (or constitutional endorsement of gun ownership) in most European countries, so less people oppose these restrictions getting passed.
Enjoy it. It's better than the fascism taking over in the US and will be far better than the Civil War we're about to have to kill the fascists.
sorry, I wont stay until end, watching videos like that reminds me where I am, and that gets me down
I feel, I keep up to date with German politics due to being a German and American citizen and it sucks big time. I’ve thought about moving back there multiple times but i’m not willing to give up my family collection of historic firearms worth thousands.
overlogged, so be somewhere else....
68walter I would, but moving to any of the countries I would like to be, isn`t that simple, not that I didn`t tried
Ein Toast auf die Freiheit auf Passierschein :|
I'm glad we can collect and shoot full auto on public ranges here, yet we're a member of the EU :) It's about the people, not the government.
You can have full autos only with a collector's license and the european legislative can't change that. Problem comes with open bolt semi autos and other "converted from full auto weapons". Our government basically gives you a free collector's pass for guns you already have that are like that, but nobody really knows what's gonna happen once the new legislative comes to play. It's supposed to stop us from having more than 10 round mags without the collector's license or a pass. We think that our government is just gonna issue free passes for everyone for the guns and mags that they want to buy, but it might get restricted. We for example don't know at all what's gonna happen to guns bought after 17.6.2017. It's gonna work out somehow, hopefully.
vojtasTS29 I thought they abandond that idea
Luisito Bardaji Benitez nobody knows for sure. If the eu pushes too hard, this is probably gonna be it. They're trying to write a whole new gun law but they're taking their time for sure.
vojtasTS29 I do understand that goverments are hessitant to give private citizens firearms, they are by their very nature designed to kill. I just feel like they could change who gets them, not what they get.
Subjects happy for scraps thrown their way. Sad saps. So happy to be an American.
this video made me really pissed off. hopefully as a last ditch plan FESAC could ship over these priceless artifacts to be held in american vaults until europe becomes sane again. collectors and museums are not the problem, terrorists are.
I definitely advocate very strict gun control, but one should still be able to collect firearms. It should require a thorough and strict procedure, but it shouldn't be made impossible. Outright outlawing arms collecting, and destroying collections just wouldn't be the right way of doing things. Weapons are, unfortunately, part of world history and should be treated as such in these cases.
There is no such country called Europe which many americans seem to think (it's like saying Africa is a country). Europe is the part of Eurasia, that lies west of the Ural mountain chain and north of Bosporus and the Caucasus Mountains. There are many sovereign countries in Europe and not all of them are in the European Union, which I think is what you may be refering too with "Europe"?
The European Union is by no means similar to the federal government of USA. First of all the european commission is not elected by the public nor is it democratic and the EU-president is not elected by public, democratic elections like the US-president. Generally speaking the EU is not a democratic government, but a cooperation between countries in west and central Europe.
For example I live in Denmark and we have our own gun laws, which are not EU-gun laws. And Greenland and the Faroe Islands, which are both parts of Denmark (the Kingdom of Denmark) with some autonomy and neither are members of the EU, also have their own gun laws, which are different from the ones in Denmark.
You are defenitely moving into complicated territory, if you want to cover all the different gun laws in each country in Europe. Its like a more diverse US state by state gun law system but with no central government ;)...
" Collectors that are collecting according to the rules" so why do you oppose these new rules?
I like the way The Netherlands does it, you have to be a member of a certified gun club for atleadt a tear before you are eligible for a license and to keep weapons in your home you have to have a gun safe that js either, bolted into the wall and floor or a safe that is 200kg of heavier. in your first year you can only have one, after that up to five. if you have a collectors license, you can have as many as you want. if you have the right paperwork you can even have full auto weapons. Also, no caliber restrictions.
I do not like that at all
Matt this way is just a lot safer
Similar in Germany, but full auto guns are strictly forbidden.
And what's there to like? You need to pay huge amounts of money for club memberships, the license and the fucking safe before you can even buy a gun. And such a safe might be too heavy for an apartment floor, for example. So just because of that you might never own a gun.
Same in Denmark.
Kind the same in Brazil, with more restrictions. Markus is right. That's not a public safety issue, it's a corporative issue. The cost of owning/collecting is insane and you obliged to sustain a kafkian bureaucracy that only wants to increase in size, adding new rules... By the way, despite all those heavy restrictions, Brazil had more firearms deaths than Syria last year... So here, an example on how useful those laws are.
12:04 That number of Americans doesn't include the population of IL...stupid FOID card...*grumble grumble*
I have to be frank, I voted for the UK to leave the Eu, the commissions unfounded restrictions on shooting in countries where they have a strong tradition of shooting (UK) was a frankly insulting, over the top knee jerk reaction and one which has no sensible basis in law and has no impact upon the armed criminals making full use of the open borders they have created. The Eu a bad experiment that has gone on too long!
The right of the EU to keep and bear a private army shall not be infringed.
There, European gun rights.lol
I know that not every country is bad, but compared to the US most European gun laws look close to authoritarian.
Not EU !!!!
Tragicomedic (plans of) restriction/destruction while people of criminal intent can rather easily acquire weapons illegally from post-Soviet area of interest countries or non-EU neighboring countries. This law would have protected no one.
Observation: They don’t have the Second Amendment and we do. So they have to get licenses from the jump. (Paraphrased)
Ok. Fine.
Now...re-listen to this European guy describe “sovereign nations” being subservient to EU bureaucrats in Brussels.
Again...”sovereign nations / states”
And it’s not an EU with enumerated boundaries in scope and power. It’s an EU that deep dives into some of the most asinine of subjects: example - how many minutes of video can a digital camera record vs a digital video recorder. I didn’t just make that up, either. That’s real.
I am not being unkind or disrespectful, but all of these people are way too willing to end up in the same place: be it by commissars at the point of a gun or EU commissions at the point of a pen.
These EU types keep using that word sovereign. It doesn’t mean what they think it means.
Regards,
Marky
Has there ever an instance of a country's gun laws becoming less restrictive?
Matt Clarke the netherlands, in 1890 the goverment just went up and said, no more weapons so you guys can overthrow us. and later they chilled a bit, and now with a bit of time and effort you can basicly get anything
Yes. The UK, due to new EU rules, people are now allowed to buy expanding ammunition here, without it being a condition on their licences. So due to being IN the EU we have gained new rights and lost nothing. Brexiteers take note, our own government is way more anti-gun than the EU. Make our own laws? Be careful what you wish for!
The US. Most states have it better now than they did 30 years ago.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_carry#/media/File:Rtc.gif