*CORRECTION:* At 4:33 the narration says a seek action is contested by Stealth DC, whereas the onscreen text says it is contested by the total of the person's Stealth check. The narration is correct... when someone uses Seek, it is contested by a static Stealth DC. See here for more great videos on Pathfinder: th-cam.com/play/PLYCDCUfG0xJb5I-wDIezuDkTfbd8k21Km.html Want to help support the channel? Get you name listed at the end of my videos by joining my Patreon : ▶️ www.patreon.com/HowItsPlayed/ Thank me with a cup of coffee! ▶️ ko-fi.com/HowItsPlayed
Awesome video. I think what the P2e community needs at the moment are some cheatsheets and flow charts. The videos you are making right now realy help out. Especially at the end where you have the summery.
Thanks. I often wrestle with whether I should include those summaries or not. I think they're valuable, but often add several minutes to the run-time of these videos, and that turns a lot of people off from viewing them. Nice to hear the summaries are helpful.
Sounds like it’s a Donald Rumsfeld type condition. You have known knows, known unknowns, unknown knowns, and unknown unknowns. He may need a credit in the CRB.
I've watched this video long time ago and I didn't remember this example part. I"ve noticed it in your shorts and went back to the video. In all your videos I mostly like the explaination parts, they show allmost all potential situations :) Thanks for your work Dave! You are helping the community to understand PF2e !
I went from D&D 3.5 to 5e, now PF2e. Really like everything I've been reading so far. Love the examples in this video, so glad to have found your channel to help with the transition.
I'm not sure I like the notion that rolling a nat 20 (or nat 1 for that matter) to palm an object or hide does not matter at all if on I'ts turn your opponent seeks since he goes against your stealth DC anyway. I mean if you roll very high to palm the dagger, then it should be harder to find.
Great videos, though i did notice that at 4:33 - 4:52 when you explain hiding objects in the environment, you said that the player does not need to roll a stealth check but it's written that they do. Otherwise, absolutely fantastic videos, going through these to help clarify things i find confusing in the books.
Your work is exceptional! I really would consider buying a player basic rules cheat sheet from you if you ever created such a thing. Your way of explaining things is super helpful.
Seems like hiding an object has 2 changes of failure then. When you're hiding it and if they seek it. I suppose that's the penalty for trying to hide something in front of other people. THe best strategy would be to hide that dagger on your boot BEFORE you come in contact with the guards.
at 22:00 it says she’s observed from the guard. wouldn’t she be hidden if she breaks like of sight as he can only perceives her with an imprecise sens (hearing)?
This helps so much thanks. Still have some questions if you don't mind. 1) If you're attacking a hidden target twice for example (in the same round), do you have to make the flat check twice or once is enough to cover both attacks? 2) Can you run out of cover (assuming a successful Hide or Sneak in the previous action or even round) and attack an enemy at melee and still get the bonus (enemy being flat footed)? Or the moment you step out of the cover you are instantly considered observed, hence enemy is not flat footed? Edit: 3) Does Step also require a Stealth check like Sneak does? Thanks!
So there was emphasis that you have to use the Hide action to become Hidden before you can use the Sneak action, but I don't understand how if you move far enough out of sight from a creature, that you don't automatically become Hidden to them since they are unable to see you and therefore know which square you are in. For the Merisiel escaping a guard example, say she ran into that library room before the guard enters that room. Wouldn't she automatically be hidden since the guard can't be aware which square she is in? Therefore, you can immediately start sneaking?
That's a very good point -- when I make an updated version of the video I'll include a bit about this. You are correct, all you need to Sneak is the Hidden or Undetected state. If the enemy cannot detect you with a Precise Sense (vision), then they cannot Observe you and you would be able to sneak away. The point I wanted to make clear was that cover by itself is not enough to let you sneak. A lot of other game systems I've played say as long as you have cover, you can make the Stealth check to sneak away, and I wanted to be clear that that is not the case here.
@@HowItsPlayed I think I agree and have been mulling this over myself. Hiding behind cover seems like trying to hide behind a half wall or piece of furniture, maybe a thin column or cornering a wall; something where unless action is taken line of sight is possible/not broken. Hiding would break line of sight by crouching/contorting/etc and sneaking after that is moving from that spot without re-triggering that line of sight when you normally would under non sneak movement. While thinking it over, the conclusion I came to is that moving behind a wall completely would reduce you to undetected automatically because you no longer have sight and you have no idea how far behind the wall they moved (unless it is a column really). No matter how loud you are or how well someone can see (unless magically altered) you cannot be observed while completely behind a wall At first this seems weird and feels wrong to me because I come from DND and don't get into the weeds like this with my 5e group but I think I'm comfortable with the ideas because walls work both ways. If I move completely behind a wall I am saying I'm not even peeking out to look. Anything behind that wall is undetected to me as well and even though they are flat footed against me, I cannot do anything to capitalize on that because the target is outside of my sight. Similarly I am flat footed to them but they cannot capitalize for the same reasons It does mean that rogues and other sneaky types will have advantages with walls. They can become immediately undetected by moving behind a wall (no checks just movment) then sneak (checked) back out and maybe even attack as their third action but that leaves them wide open to counter attack which seems to balance it out. If you take this understanding and approach, walls and corridors become valuable set pieces and control points in a combat opposed to gates/bars/counters/tables/etc that can also be used to divide up the space and provide cover. That value can be built around when designing encounters and encounter spaces. Going back to losing someone in the stacks; if a guard has a low int they may directly try to follow but losing that guard should be easy-ish because you have full movement still. A guard with a higher int may take the layout into consideration and wait in an area where they can see most (if not all) of the exits. The runner gets to be undetected very easily, but they do not know where the guard has posted up and they will have to make the sneak check to essentially move into the guards line of sight without becoming observed. Just my two cents on it and wanted to share because the rules as written don't directly seem to take this into account
Positive criticism here from people who enjoy those videos, I agree that the sound was too loud. The sound itself is a neat idea, but the voice explaining the rules should always remain louder.
Yes, thanks for the feedback. Sorry for the scare! I got a kick out of adding a "Metal Gear" homage, and didn't realize it was that loud while building the vid. I used the same effect in my D&D 5e video on stealth and no one has commented on it being an issue, so I thought I was in the clear. Then again, only like three people have watched that vid. LOL
Really enjoy your videos; The metal gear solid alert is too loud. Your voice is usually rather soft, And it actually made me jump in my seat while driving.
What happens in example 2 if they fail their initial hide action? As this is a secret check they wouldn't know they've failed it, would you inform them they need to use another hide action or let them sneak with half movement but auto fail the sneak actions ( as they were never hidden in the first place)
That's a good point. In my games, I would tell them if they succeeded or failed that check. Not 100% correct by RAW but much easier to manage at the game table.
Interesting question.... It is somewhat touched on in the video however a friend and I are having a debate. To set the stage; a player is "Undetected" or "Hidden" (i.e. the NPCs know "something" is out there) at the beginning of their turn and someone is staring in the direction they are in. The player moves using "Stealth" and beats the Perception DC. During their movement, they moved through an "observed" square (did not stop there), are they "observed"? (e.g. a guard watching a long hallway and a person zig zags from left wall to right wall to hide behind boxes; another example, a person moves between two large trees in the woods, while a guard is observing the trees). I am leaning towards them "not being observed", as this is covered at about 16:50 into the video. Thoughts?
By RAW, you only need to have cover or concealment at the start and end of the Sneak. But the GM always has the final say. I have had situations where I required the player to maintain cover or concealment all the way through the action.
@@HowItsPlayed Thanks for the clarification! He and I fully agree, the GM has the final call. We were disagreeing, in the friendliest sense, on the interpretation of RAW. I appreciate knowing that you also have thematically have made a similar choice. I'm sure we'll use it in the future.
If someone is hidden or undetected from a previous stealth check are they required to roll a new stealth check if they use the step action? Do they drop to hidden rather than undetected if they use step rather than sneak while undetected?
Great video but didn't understand around 4:33 when a character uses the Seek Action the slide shows it's contested by the 'total of the Stealth check' but the oration says it's contested by the static Stealth DC....
Thanks for pointing that out! The narration is correct... it should be contested by a static Stealth DC. I've pinned a correction to the top of these comments.
So if I am trying to sneak a dagger hidden in my sleeve past two guards, why is there more than one check? You said the guards would take a seek action on their turn to search for weapons. Wouldn’t my conceal action (against the guards’ static perception) be the only check necessary to see if I succeed?
Agreed! And I'll just reinforce how important it is to understand actions. When you take an action, you roll dice and it's contested by the static DC of a target (i.e. you take the Conceal an Object action -- you roll Stealth against their Perception DC, but when they take Seek they roll Perception versus your Stealth DC). If you were forced to use only your Perception DC and not have an opportunity to roll Perception on your turn, I think a lot of players would feel cheated that they were limited to 10+Perception and not have the option of rolling to get 20+Perception.
If your Conceal an Object action is successful, then the guards don't notice you concealing the weapons when you move past them. If they stop and search you, they then get to Seek for the weapons. They still haven't noticed them until then, so your Conceal an Object action was successful, but they now get to Seek. If they choose not to Seek, then they don't ever get that chance.
As this is over a year old I'm not expecting an answer, but figured I'd give it a shot anyway: Regarding the Goblin Feats "Very Sneaky" and "Very, Very Sneaky" do they have any effect on being Observed outside of your turn? I'm guessing for Very Sneaky it doesn't, but I'm not sure. Also, for Very, Very Sneaky it seems likely there should be an effect. For example, with Very, Very Sneaky it says that you can hide or sneak even without Concealment / Cover, and I'd like to zero in on the sneak part of that, because with Very Sneaky you can already do that as long as you have Concealment / Cover at the end of your turn (as well as the start of the action, of course), implying that with Very, Very Sneaky you don't even need that and could be out in the open at the end of your turn. So, does that mean that if you've attempted to actively hide and then later in the round someone walks in on you standing in the middle of the room they wouldn't notice you unless they seek, and then they'd test it against your stealth DC? I feel like it should work that way, but it also doesn't say it very explicitly imo, and I know Pathfinder is very meticulous with it's rules, so I want to make sure I'm not reading into things too much.
Yes, that's how I read it too. As long as the Very, Very Sneaky Goblin is hidden at the end of their turn, they are not instantly observed by others later. As a GM, I would likely remind that goblin that there may be circumstances where I overrule RAW.... if it's a giant, empty, well-lit room and he's in the middle of it, I may not allow it unless he can provide some creative reason why he would be camouflaged.
21:31 what if Marisil had moved further and had complete and total cover from the guard? Would she be automatically Hidden, without the need for a Hide action? Or does the guard seeing her go into the corridor somehow maintain the Observed condition?
Okay, from further reading about Perception and senses it seems like she would automatically become Hidden if the guard narratively can't see her, because hearing is an imprecise sense for the guard. As for the possibility of Sneaking-I suppose full cover would use the same bonus as greater cover for Stealth?
Bit of a necropost, but I had a question regarding example 2, if anyone's around to answer... 22:12 - is there anything technically stopping a PC from doubling back and moving left with their seek action? It makes no sense narratively, but mechanically, beginning and end of their sneak action would be behind cover. I understand that would leave them open to being detected when the guard stepped into plain view of her, but specifically for the second action, I was wondering how that would work?
By RAW it would work like the example at 16:40. You do not need to maintain cover or concealment throughout the Sneak... you only need it when you start and when you finish. That said, GMs are absolutely free to rule differently, and this is one of those situations where I think they should. If the player wanted to move left in my game, I would require them to use the Create a Diversion action first.
When would you roll initiative in these circumstances? For example, when she sneaks into the student halls, say he check failed and the students detected her (and she is now hidden) - will she now roll stealth again for the initiative or would you use her failed roll. And what about the students who detected her - since it was against their Perception DC - are you just going to use the DC as the initiative, or will you roll Perception for them proper? And if the 3rd students did not detect her - (only the 2 behind the curtain did) - will he not roll initiative at all until the other two 'Point Out'?
You would keep her rolled stealth for initiative and they would all roll perception. If a person who rolled perception and won was not one of those who noticed her, on that person's turn they could start by rolling a seek action (although some people feel this is metagaming) if you are playing with those type of people I would suggest using the delay action (which is a free action) to delay your turn until she was "pointed out" by someone who saw her.
Curious how you understand the use of "Step" in the following Success condition phrase "You become observed as soon as you do anything other than Hide, Sneak, or Step."? In other words, is the idea that you can Step as many times as you like after Sneak as long as you have cover/concealment?
@dave why in the very first step of the example where the student is observed by Meri and she is sneaking does she maintain U&U status? Isn’t she instantly observed through window since she has not maintained cover?
I believe I wrote the example from the perspective that she was crouching down... the window isn't full-length and there is a table on the other side, so she had cover.
One scenario that you missed that you should add: sneaking up behind someone to stab them in the back. If you sneak up behind someone, then at the end of your move your stealth breaks as you are no longer in cover. So the target is not flatfooted when you Strike. What you actually need to do is, strike them with a ranged attack while you are still hidden, or have some ability that allows you to still be concealed after moving, or delays that check till the end of the turn (eg Goglin's Very Sneaky), or use the create a diversion action as that lasts till the end of your turn.
You say repeatedly that you need to be Hidden or Unobserved to be able to take the Sneak action, but I can't seem to find that rule, either in the Stealth skill, the Sneak action, or in any errata. What am I missing? If it's true, why isn't there a "REQUIREMENT: You must be Hidden or Unobserved" line under the Sneak action similar to how numerous other abilities have REQUIREMENT lines?
This was quite thorough but quick question that I may have missed - what is the point of the "Point Out" action? Description says it alerts your party members about a creature that is Undetected to them but not to you (to you it is Hidden). This will turn allow them to perceive the creature as Hidden. But since the only difference between the two statuses is knowing which square it is in (assuming battlemap play) - can't the player just attack the square and the other players would know where the creature is (when they have to select a square to attack an Undetected creature). Was this action primarily created for 'Theatre of the Mind' style of play?
Well, sometimes a character may not be able or willing to attack the square with the enemy, (because for example they can't attack it or prioritize defensive actions like Raise Shield or searching for Cover). Also, if for example a wizard casts Fireball against an undetected creature, his comrades may not be able to pinpoint the exact square, because a burst starts from one of the corner of a square, leaving up to four squares as options. However, I agree that attacking the square may be enough, provided, you hit the target or else your comrades can't be sure, if you actually have found an enemy or just attacking the wrong square. At least, not without metagaming. But effectively, the only difference would be, that the GM rolls the flat check of DC 11 for missing secretly, if you attack an undetected creature. As long as you can trust your GM, it shouldn't make any difference, I think.
Hey good video, just a question - at 22:00, you say she needs to hide before sneaking. But I've seen in some other videos/posts you say that if you can't tell where the person is with precise sense (behind total cover, out of line of sight, behind a watefall, etc.), then she is automatically hidden. Doesn't the guard have no line of sight/effect to her at that stage and so she becomes hidden automatically?
If there is no line-of-sight, then they can't be observed and would be hidden. At the beginning of that round, there is line-of-sight so she's being observed. Now, the question is... does she have to hide before she starts her stealth action.... or would moving into the next square where there is no line-of-sight automatically make her hidden on it's own. By RAW, you roll your Stealth check versus the Perception DC of anyone you were not hidden or undetected from at the start of the movement. So, you can either hide and then move... or move one square, instantly become Hidden and then take a Stealth action. But either way, you're spending 2 actions and IMO it just makes sense to hide first. If it helps, check out the sidebar on page 251. This example was simply meant to replicate what is shown there.
@@HowItsPlayed Ok, I concede that standing in the corner of the bookcase, she probably only has greater/cover and can be observed. But I do wonder about whether a break of line of sight makes someone hidden (in the physical sense, they ARE hidden, but not sure rules wise). If you look at Avoid Notice, it certainly makes it as if you enter an encounter rolling Stealth '...as normal for Sneak...', which means you must have been Hidden prior (or you wouldn't be able to Sneak). This suggest that no LoS = Hidden, since the reason you were Hidden was because there was no enemy around before the encounter.
I also wonder if that means that if you fail your Avoid Notice - you start the encounter as Hidden (so long as the GM places your figure behind cover/concealment at start of encounter).
Technically, this example is already in "Encounter Mode" as they're using 3 actions per round. But if it moved to combat and I would likely use Merisiel's failed check as her initiative score and if she was behind the shelf with no line-of-sight she would start Hidden.
I’m still a bit confused as to why/when a stealth roll is used vs a stealth DC. If she used a stealth roll to move down the library stacks why does that no longer apply when the guard does a seek action? Is her roll only valid on her turn? Just for that action? Or just for the circumstance she’s trying to overcome? Any hoo another great video on a very complex subject! Thank you.
Great vid! However, correct me if I’m wrong, but a creature must roll a Stealth check to Conceal an Object in an environment against the Perception DC of any other observing creature.
If you are trying to hide it without anyone noticing, then yes (it's not so much "roll a check because you're being observed" as the player saying, "I think someone might be watching, so I want to hide this without being seen"). However the way it's worded is that's an exception to the rule as written. I think the rule assumes you're making sure you're hiding something while you're alone. So, by RAW, you do not roll on a typical Conceal an Object action. It's like any other action... if you do not believe you are being watched, and therefore are not trying to avoid notice, you would not roll a Stealth Check. Which is different from all other Stealth actions in that you only use them specifically when you believe you are being watched and are trying to avoid notice. I think this is an important distinction because many other RPG systems say something like "Roll a Stealth Check when you hide something. This total becomes the DC for anyone who may try to find it in the future," and I wanted to be crystal clear that that is not how things work in Pathfinder 2e.
Basics4Gamers, the distinction between PF2e and other RPG games is important to make. A lot of long-time players of the hobby are going to adjudicate the rules incorrectly, so thank you very much for clarifying. Reading over the Conceal an Object rules again, it doesn’t seem to me that the RAW makes any assumption on whether a creature is hiding an object while alone or not. (Only what happens if another creature actively Seeks.) So, in the end, I think we are both correct. Maybe it’s worth updating the video to explain both scenarios, hiding an object when alone vs hiding an object when not alone?
is there any maluses to perception depending on distance ? Also would an occupied character like the studen reading get a malus ? What about a sleeping character ?
A sleeping character automatically fails any perception check using only sight and suffers a -4 penalty to Perception using their hearing. There are no hard rules for penalties due to distance or being occupied, so it's up to the GM to make a judgement call and apply a penalty (if any) using the table on page 504.
So wait, if a character has taken the hide action on their turn, and then after their turn an enemy previously unaware of them with +1000 to perception enters the room, there's absolutely no chance that creature spots the hiding creature unless it takes a seek action or that creature loses concealment or cover? If that's correct, how often might a creature take a seek action in a day of casual life? If it's like a creature with super-hearing, I find it difficult to believe it would not just automatically notice a creature with a stealth DC of 5 just by its breathing.
At around 13.50 you say that the GM determines the DC to detect someone not trying to hide. at 12:10, you claim that the two students not taking the Seek action have no chance to spot Merrisial. Is that not a double standard of sorts? What's more, I can't seem to find the rule that supports either claim. Could you please cite your source?
In the reference to the GM determining the DC when the target is not attempting to be stealthy, that's simply a DC to see if Merisiel can hear the student through the door. I'm not sure of a page number reference for that... nothing in 2nd Ed that says "The DC to listen through a wooden door is X". It's a bit of shooting from the hip. In the case of the passing students, they don't have a chance to detect her because they were not using the Seek action (Merisiel was using Seek in the other example). And note that the example was assuming the game was in Encounter mode, not Exploration. The rules that reference using Seek to detect a hiding creature are covered in the last paragraph of Hide, in the Success entry of Stealth (end of it), and the Seek Action on page 471. I'll be the first to agree that the stealth and perception rules are complex -- and putting this video together took quite a bit of hunting for rules, but I *think* that's the way it works in absence of a "Passive Perception" like other games.
No, the first sentence of Hide specifies it must be Cover or Greater Cover. However, there is a feat that lets halflings use people for cover for the purposes of stealth.
That's largely going to be up the the GM. All Silent Spell does is remove the verbal component of the spell, but everything else about casting the spell is still obvious. Think of Doctor Strange from the Marvel movies. If part of casting your spell causes a big green light to emanate from your body and you're hiding in a shadowed corner of a dark room, then you probably just reveled yourself. But this largely is the GM's call.
@@HowItsPlayed Thank you for replying.. there is no specific rule about this.. but it would depend on the spell (IMHO) If you're casting a big fireball then everyone is going to see that .. however, if there is only one foe in the area.. and you cast "Daze" silenced from hiding.. then, in theory, you should still be hidden.
question: as a dm how am i supposed to manage a player playing a rogue/alchemist with smoke bomb feat? He'd like to play role like batman (hit and hide) and i thought i may make the npc roll a perception check with a malus. IF he has a good roll he detects him and can try to hit without a malus, otherwise he loses the action (he looks around trying to understand enemy position and acting sneaky) What do you think about it?
If the player uses a smoke bomb, then they gain the Concealed condition. This by itself does not prevent anyone from seeing him, but it does allow them to use the Hide and Sneak actions. The biggest problem may be the action economy... it will cost 1 action to make the smoke bomb with quick alchemy, another 1 action to throw the smoke bomb, and then a third action to hide... which means they wouldn't be able to do this in the same round as attacking an enemy.
At 11:44 you say that any target you attack while sneaking is flat-footed against you for the first attack. However, in the Core Rulebook, from what I can find, you become observed the moment BEFORE the attack and the target loses flat-footed. Was there an edit or something that I’m just not seeing?
That's from the "Success" text on page 252. Start of the second paragraph: "If you attempt to Strike a creature, the creature remains flat-footed against that attack, and you then become observed."
Basics4Gamers now that I’m looking at things again, the complaints about “breaking stealth before an attack” all seem to be from during the play test, which is what confused me. They definitely fixed it before print
Basics4Gamers although, since you become observed if you don’t end behind cover, could you only attack someone with a ranged Strike while taking penalties from cover? I don’t see any option, by RAW, to get a melee attack from Stealth
What about Create a Diversion? It allows you to begin Sneaking, but if you finish your move without cover do you get to roll for Sneak or are you automatically Observed?
If you succeed with Create a Diversion you're "Hidden" until the end of your turn. So as long as you are not in the open at the end of your turn, you should be fine.
@@LuizBGomide If you succeed at Create a Diversion, everyone who is affected by it is looking the other direction until the end of that turn (i.e. you gain the Hidden condition against them). So, if you end your second action standing out in the open, you're still "Hidden" to those people, and can try to use your third action to get behind cover for when the Diversion wears off. Of course, if you're standing out in the open after your second action and in clear view of people who were not affected by Create a Diversion, then yes -- those people would automatically spot you. And if you're out in the open after the third action, then you're spotted because that's when the Diversion ends.
@@LuizBGomideYou could, if you want to move from Hidden to Undetected. And on a critical failure you're automatically observed unless you have something special going on, like invisibility. I know this is very confusing... it always gives me a headache. :)
The rules for Encounter Mode when stealthing are the same as anything else. You enter Encounter Mode when the GM decides it is best to measure time in 6-second turns, rather than in minutes (or hours).
Sure. "At the end of your movement, the GM rolls your Stealth check in secret and compares the result to the Perception DC of each creature you were hidden from or undetected by at the start of your movement." So, you need to be hidden or undetected at the start of your movement. If you don't have cover or concealment, then you would have been observed at the start of the movement (I'm assuming vision is the only precise sense being used to simplify things a little). It then says, "You don’t get to roll against a creature if, at the end of your movement, you neither are concealed from it nor have cover or greater cover against it. " So, you need to have cover or concealment at the end of your movement. But it also states that between the start and finish of your move, you do not need to maintain cover, but if you do you get a bonus to your check. "If you have cover or greater cover from the creature throughout your Stride, you gain the +2 circumstance bonus from cover (or +4 from greater cover) to your Stealth check." So, you need cover or concealment at the start to be hidden or undetected, and you need it at the end or else you're not allowed to roll the check. You do not need it in the middle, but if you have cover, you get a bonus.
@@HowItsPlayed Damm that's complicated but does it even make possible a situation when you make an attack while being Hidden? Immediately when you end your move action and you're in the open, even when you're facing to the back of the opponent you become OBSERVED. If you hide in the berrel you have to come outof the barrel for 1 Action and you're not Hidden anymore. I can't think of a situation where someone will be able to make an attack while being Hidden and Sneaking, assuming that my players always use torches in the dungeons, they can't be attacked by anyone being hidden :(
@@GamingMansion Yeah, I know what you mean. It can feel a little tricky. But something to keep in mind is that Pathfinder does not take facing into account. It's assumed that characters are always vigilant and aware of their immediate surroundings. So, technically speaking, "even when you're facing to the back of the opponent" isn't a thing as far as the rules are concerned. You can attack while hidden if you have cover or concealment. Lurking in a deep shadow, waiting for your target to walk past your hiding spot, etc. If you want to tip-toe up behind a target in the open without cover or concealment, the GM absolutely can make a judgement call that the target doesn't notice. I've done that before when I felt the target's attention was someplace else. Another option is the Distract action found under the Deception skill. You could spend an action distracting the target... then sneak up right behind them... and then attack. Because if Distract works, you are hidden to target until the end of the turn (or until you take an action that would reveal yourself, like stabbing them).
@@HowItsPlayed Thanks for the awesome tips! I was hoping the recently released Gamemaster guide would shed some light or add new rules to the surprise attacks but I didn't find anything of this sort. I feel hidden sneak attacks should be rare yet possible, especially in the dark but it seems so limited with this rule set.
Hello i'm studying core rulebook. If your are unnoticed can you attack with flat footed condition a creature after sneak and finish it with no cover ? Thanks
It was a question not a suggestion. I wondering if it's possible. An another question. You sneak an ennemi. You finish your movement under cover. You are always undetected can you make a step near the ennemy . Can you strike him with flat footed condition ? Thanks for answers.
The roll is vs. others just passively observing you and noticing the object. It's only if you are actively being searched by a guard or someone like that when they get to roll against your DC.
The Hide action states that you don't lose the hidden condition when you Step. The Hide rules also, again, give the GM extra leeway to account for common sense. If the GM determines the Stepping out of cover into the open is obtrusive, then it can still expose you.
So it means you can still succeed at your stealth check but if the npc actively seeking you succeed then it sees you (and you failed?...) ???....That doesn't make sense....Also, what you write at 4:36 is different than what is written in the core book....you say "the total of your stealth check" and the rule book says "check against your stealth DC"....My read on this is if both are actively trying to do something against the other than both rolls checks and compare results to see who wins.
There are no opposed rolls in PF2e. No one goes at the same time. Everyone takes turns, and on their turn they roll against any set DC that might oppose what ever thing they are trying to do. Then when it's the other persons turn, they get to roll against the original persons set DC.
So...how does this assertion interact with the Goblin Ancestry feat: Very Sneaky, which implies the opposite of what you've stated about moving from cover to cover?
The key difference is without Very Sneaky you need to have cover or concealment at the end of *each* Sneak Action. So, if you start the round Hidden from an enemy and take the Sneak Action, you move half your speed and do not need to maintain cover or concealment throughout the movement, but must have it at the end of the movement. And then if you want to Sneak with your second action, you move again and must have cover or concealment at the end of that movement. And if you want to Sneak again with your third action, you repeat the process and must have cover or concealment at the end of the turn. But if a goblin with Very Sneaky wants to Sneak three times on their turn, they don't need to have cover or concealment at the end of their first action or the end of their second action. As long as they succeed on their Stealth Checks, they only need to have cover or concealment at the end of their turn (after their third action). Without Very Sneaky you "bounce" from cover to cover. With Very Sneaky you can go straight to your final destination, as long as that spot provides cover or concealment.
why have a d20 in the first place if everything is just DCs why not just do "your stealth Vs their perception" without rolls at this point? or old school opposed rolls? This seems like a needlessly complicated take on a perviously simple concept?
Shout out to you in my latest video. Check the thirty-three minute mark of "Pathfinder 2E - How to Get Playing" Your stuff is good. I love it. Keep it going! Will hype your work because it's awesome and helps players everywhere!
Thanks, man! I really appreciate the mention and card! I'll hit you back some time... I've been meaning to make a non-rules video just about the channel itself and other cool people out there.
Wow, stealth sucks hard now. Thanks for the informative video(I'm serious, thank you. I understand 2e Stealth now and why I won't ever attempt it before level 7 for Quick Sneak)
this whole bit feels so weird to me as I'm coming from 5e. the fact that you made a very HIGH Stealth or concealment check one your turn becoming null and void by rule of thumb here just doesn't sit with me. I know it's supposed to be this way, but there's just something there that bothers me. idk my mind is a mystery even to me... but great video anyways, I can better understand the mechanics of Pathfinder with these videos.
... who wrote these rules? How did they get through playtesting? In the best of scenarios the math is 75% in favor of the perception skill, and that's just on the first checkpoint never mind a whole stealth mission. There is literally not even a point in trying to overcome something more complicated than a bouncer, because the rules are written to force a stealth fail by pure math.
I really wish the "has to have cover" aspect of stealth wasn't there. As is, stealth is just to cumbersome to use and I would bet even most rogues don't make use of it for that reason.
It is interesting why there is no 1 action, 2 action or 3 action Sneak each giving 0 -2 -4 penalty to the sneak. I don't know if that would be too strong? Very Sneaky, Very Very Sneaky, Swift Sneak and Legendary Sneak could just remove that penalty with addition to what they do. things that help the sneaking are following things: lvl 1 Goblin Very Sneaky = as long you start and end behind cover and don't fail stealth roll you can sneak three times. lvl 13 Very Very sneaky = Sneak full speed lvl 7 Skill Feat Swift Sneak = Sneak Full speed and don't need cover at all. lvl 15 Skill Feat Legendary Sneak ) Sneak Full speed, don't need cover at all and can avoid notice while doing other activities. I think the rules are better in PF2e unlike D&D 5e or what I recall the rules being way more unclear and unforgiving but I have not read the rules for while.
In my game = "Make a stealth roll, oh you got a 18? Great you manage to sneak/hide/conceal". That simple. What a load of complication in this game at times.
*CORRECTION:* At 4:33 the narration says a seek action is contested by Stealth DC, whereas the onscreen text says it is contested by the total of the person's Stealth check. The narration is correct... when someone uses Seek, it is contested by a static Stealth DC.
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Basics4Gamers that mgs sound is much too loud and annoying
Awesome video. I think what the P2e community needs at the moment are some cheatsheets and flow charts. The videos you are making right now realy help out. Especially at the end where you have the summery.
Thanks. I often wrestle with whether I should include those summaries or not. I think they're valuable, but often add several minutes to the run-time of these videos, and that turns a lot of people off from viewing them. Nice to hear the summaries are helpful.
@@HowItsPlayed The summaries are awesome, it really solidifies the mechanics of everything by being able to see it in action.
@@HowItsPlayedI am truly grateful for this guides, I tend to get overwhelmed by the “text sausage” that’s in those books.
@@Randomdudefromtheinternet You're very welcome!
Your videos are amazing! I'm going to go through all of them in one sitting. GMing my first game in a couple weeks and I want to be prepared.
Good luck!
Thank you so much for this explanation!
You're very welcome!
Very consistently good videos. This didn't feel like 24 minutes before it got to summary.
These videos (particularly this one) have helped my group so much, thank you for making them!
You're very welcome!
Sounds like it’s a Donald Rumsfeld type condition. You have known knows, known unknowns, unknown knowns, and unknown unknowns. He may need a credit in the CRB.
The examples were really outstanding, thanks a lot!
You're very welcome!
Awesome video! Every time I have a question about a particular rule, like Stealth, I often come back and re-watch on of these vids.
Glad to hear it!
I've watched this video long time ago and I didn't remember this example part.
I"ve noticed it in your shorts and went back to the video.
In all your videos I mostly like the explaination parts, they show allmost all potential situations :)
Thanks for your work Dave! You are helping the community to understand PF2e !
Thank you for this. This was a lot easier to understand than reading the core rulebook.
You're very welcome!
I went from D&D 3.5 to 5e, now PF2e. Really like everything I've been reading so far. Love the examples in this video, so glad to have found your channel to help with the transition.
I'm not sure I like the notion that rolling a nat 20 (or nat 1 for that matter) to palm an object or hide does not matter at all if on I'ts turn your opponent seeks since he goes against your stealth DC anyway.
I mean if you roll very high to palm the dagger, then it should be harder to find.
Great videos, though i did notice that at 4:33 - 4:52 when you explain hiding objects in the environment, you said that the player does not need to roll a stealth check but it's written that they do. Otherwise, absolutely fantastic videos, going through these to help clarify things i find confusing in the books.
Thank you for your videos. They have helped me, my group understand Pathfinder 2e and Starfinder.
You're very welcome!
Your work is exceptional! I really would consider buying a player basic rules cheat sheet from you if you ever created such a thing. Your way of explaining things is super helpful.
Thanks for the videos, I am enjoying them and they are helping put together a good understanding of how the rules are intended to work.
Glad to hear they're helping!
My head spins... :D
Great content!
Amazing video. The explanation was clear as water
This was a great explanation. Also, the example was very helpful. Thanks!
You've got the perfect "tutorial" voice, like I can imagine you narrating How it's made,
Amazing tutorial, many thanks!
Great video, thank you so much for making these!
You're very welcome!
Excellent, as usual! Keep it up :D
Another great guide!
I was very tired when I watched this video so I was half asleep when the OBSERVED sound happened. I almost jumped out of my bed lol
Also, would be awesome if you made a stealth video for Starfinder as well! Thank you :)
That's definitely on the to do list!
Brilliant video!
Excellent video, I'd be keen to see more content like this - subscribed.
Thanks -- much appreciated!
Awesome as always.
Thanks!
Seems like hiding an object has 2 changes of failure then. When you're hiding it and if they seek it. I suppose that's the penalty for trying to hide something in front of other people. THe best strategy would be to hide that dagger on your boot BEFORE you come in contact with the guards.
at 22:00 it says she’s observed from the guard. wouldn’t she be hidden if she breaks like of sight as he can only perceives her with an imprecise sens (hearing)?
Very thankful for these
You're welcome!
Is it possible to start an encounter while maintaining the unnoticed condition?
great video. really helps with knowing the rules
Thanks -- glad I could help!
exellent explanation!
Good Video.Perfect Explanation.
Thanks!
These are so good
This helps so much thanks. Still have some questions if you don't mind. 1) If you're attacking a hidden target twice for example (in the same round), do you have to make the flat check twice or once is enough to cover both attacks? 2) Can you run out of cover (assuming a successful Hide or Sneak in the previous action or even round) and attack an enemy at melee and still get the bonus (enemy being flat footed)? Or the moment you step out of the cover you are instantly considered observed, hence enemy is not flat footed? Edit: 3) Does Step also require a Stealth check like Sneak does?
Thanks!
So there was emphasis that you have to use the Hide action to become Hidden before you can use the Sneak action, but I don't understand how if you move far enough out of sight from a creature, that you don't automatically become Hidden to them since they are unable to see you and therefore know which square you are in. For the Merisiel escaping a guard example, say she ran into that library room before the guard enters that room. Wouldn't she automatically be hidden since the guard can't be aware which square she is in? Therefore, you can immediately start sneaking?
That's a very good point -- when I make an updated version of the video I'll include a bit about this. You are correct, all you need to Sneak is the Hidden or Undetected state. If the enemy cannot detect you with a Precise Sense (vision), then they cannot Observe you and you would be able to sneak away. The point I wanted to make clear was that cover by itself is not enough to let you sneak. A lot of other game systems I've played say as long as you have cover, you can make the Stealth check to sneak away, and I wanted to be clear that that is not the case here.
@@HowItsPlayed I think I agree and have been mulling this over myself. Hiding behind cover seems like trying to hide behind a half wall or piece of furniture, maybe a thin column or cornering a wall; something where unless action is taken line of sight is possible/not broken. Hiding would break line of sight by crouching/contorting/etc and sneaking after that is moving from that spot without re-triggering that line of sight when you normally would under non sneak movement.
While thinking it over, the conclusion I came to is that moving behind a wall completely would reduce you to undetected automatically because you no longer have sight and you have no idea how far behind the wall they moved (unless it is a column really). No matter how loud you are or how well someone can see (unless magically altered) you cannot be observed while completely behind a wall
At first this seems weird and feels wrong to me because I come from DND and don't get into the weeds like this with my 5e group but I think I'm comfortable with the ideas because walls work both ways. If I move completely behind a wall I am saying I'm not even peeking out to look. Anything behind that wall is undetected to me as well and even though they are flat footed against me, I cannot do anything to capitalize on that because the target is outside of my sight. Similarly I am flat footed to them but they cannot capitalize for the same reasons
It does mean that rogues and other sneaky types will have advantages with walls. They can become immediately undetected by moving behind a wall (no checks just movment) then sneak (checked) back out and maybe even attack as their third action but that leaves them wide open to counter attack which seems to balance it out.
If you take this understanding and approach, walls and corridors become valuable set pieces and control points in a combat opposed to gates/bars/counters/tables/etc that can also be used to divide up the space and provide cover. That value can be built around when designing encounters and encounter spaces.
Going back to losing someone in the stacks; if a guard has a low int they may directly try to follow but losing that guard should be easy-ish because you have full movement still. A guard with a higher int may take the layout into consideration and wait in an area where they can see most (if not all) of the exits. The runner gets to be undetected very easily, but they do not know where the guard has posted up and they will have to make the sneak check to essentially move into the guards line of sight without becoming observed.
Just my two cents on it and wanted to share because the rules as written don't directly seem to take this into account
Great video....but observed noise was really loud and unnecessary the red ! was enough.
It seriously scared me the frist time hahaha
@@g.m.fernandes3579 I had a bit of a jump scare moment myself
Positive criticism here from people who enjoy those videos, I agree that the sound was too loud. The sound itself is a neat idea, but the voice explaining the rules should always remain louder.
Yes, thanks for the feedback. Sorry for the scare! I got a kick out of adding a "Metal Gear" homage, and didn't realize it was that loud while building the vid. I used the same effect in my D&D 5e video on stealth and no one has commented on it being an issue, so I thought I was in the clear. Then again, only like three people have watched that vid. LOL
Great video! But when the target is invisible or the tsrget have scent (like the spell animal form)
Really enjoy your videos; The metal gear solid alert is too loud. Your voice is usually rather soft, And it actually made me jump in my seat while driving.
What happens in example 2 if they fail their initial hide action? As this is a secret check they wouldn't know they've failed it, would you inform them they need to use another hide action or let them sneak with half movement but auto fail the sneak actions ( as they were never hidden in the first place)
That's a good point. In my games, I would tell them if they succeeded or failed that check. Not 100% correct by RAW but much easier to manage at the game table.
Awesome video! Could you do one on initiative coming from stealth?
That's definitely planned, although I can't guarantee when.
Interesting question.... It is somewhat touched on in the video however a friend and I are having a debate.
To set the stage; a player is "Undetected" or "Hidden" (i.e. the NPCs know "something" is out there) at the beginning of their turn and someone is staring in the direction they are in. The player moves using "Stealth" and beats the Perception DC. During their movement, they moved through an "observed" square (did not stop there), are they "observed"? (e.g. a guard watching a long hallway and a person zig zags from left wall to right wall to hide behind boxes; another example, a person moves between two large trees in the woods, while a guard is observing the trees). I am leaning towards them "not being observed", as this is covered at about 16:50 into the video. Thoughts?
By RAW, you only need to have cover or concealment at the start and end of the Sneak. But the GM always has the final say. I have had situations where I required the player to maintain cover or concealment all the way through the action.
@@HowItsPlayed Thanks for the clarification! He and I fully agree, the GM has the final call. We were disagreeing, in the friendliest sense, on the interpretation of RAW. I appreciate knowing that you also have thematically have made a similar choice. I'm sure we'll use it in the future.
If someone is hidden or undetected from a previous stealth check are they required to roll a new stealth check if they use the step action? Do they drop to hidden rather than undetected if they use step rather than sneak while undetected?
Great video but didn't understand around 4:33 when a character uses the Seek Action the slide shows it's contested by the 'total of the Stealth check' but the oration says it's contested by the static Stealth DC....
Thanks for pointing that out! The narration is correct... it should be contested by a static Stealth DC. I've pinned a correction to the top of these comments.
Same scenario except a whole party of 4 attempt to sneak in. The DMs head explodes... :)
So if I am trying to sneak a dagger hidden in my sleeve past two guards, why is there more than one check?
You said the guards would take a seek action on their turn to search for weapons. Wouldn’t my conceal action (against the guards’ static perception) be the only check necessary to see if I succeed?
Agreed! And I'll just reinforce how important it is to understand actions. When you take an action, you roll dice and it's contested by the static DC of a target (i.e. you take the Conceal an Object action -- you roll Stealth against their Perception DC, but when they take Seek they roll Perception versus your Stealth DC).
If you were forced to use only your Perception DC and not have an opportunity to roll Perception on your turn, I think a lot of players would feel cheated that they were limited to 10+Perception and not have the option of rolling to get 20+Perception.
If your Conceal an Object action is successful, then the guards don't notice you concealing the weapons when you move past them. If they stop and search you, they then get to Seek for the weapons. They still haven't noticed them until then, so your Conceal an Object action was successful, but they now get to Seek. If they choose not to Seek, then they don't ever get that chance.
As this is over a year old I'm not expecting an answer, but figured I'd give it a shot anyway:
Regarding the Goblin Feats "Very Sneaky" and "Very, Very Sneaky" do they have any effect on being Observed outside of your turn?
I'm guessing for Very Sneaky it doesn't, but I'm not sure. Also, for Very, Very Sneaky it seems likely there should be an effect.
For example, with Very, Very Sneaky it says that you can hide or sneak even without Concealment / Cover, and I'd like to zero in on the sneak part of that, because with Very Sneaky you can already do that as long as you have Concealment / Cover at the end of your turn (as well as the start of the action, of course), implying that with Very, Very Sneaky you don't even need that and could be out in the open at the end of your turn. So, does that mean that if you've attempted to actively hide and then later in the round someone walks in on you standing in the middle of the room they wouldn't notice you unless they seek, and then they'd test it against your stealth DC?
I feel like it should work that way, but it also doesn't say it very explicitly imo, and I know Pathfinder is very meticulous with it's rules, so I want to make sure I'm not reading into things too much.
Yes, that's how I read it too. As long as the Very, Very Sneaky Goblin is hidden at the end of their turn, they are not instantly observed by others later. As a GM, I would likely remind that goblin that there may be circumstances where I overrule RAW.... if it's a giant, empty, well-lit room and he's in the middle of it, I may not allow it unless he can provide some creative reason why he would be camouflaged.
21:31 what if Marisil had moved further and had complete and total cover from the guard? Would she be automatically Hidden, without the need for a Hide action? Or does the guard seeing her go into the corridor somehow maintain the Observed condition?
Okay, from further reading about Perception and senses it seems like she would automatically become Hidden if the guard narratively can't see her, because hearing is an imprecise sense for the guard. As for the possibility of Sneaking-I suppose full cover would use the same bonus as greater cover for Stealth?
@@phaerlax Yes, I believe so.
Bit of a necropost, but I had a question regarding example 2, if anyone's around to answer...
22:12 - is there anything technically stopping a PC from doubling back and moving left with their seek action? It makes no sense narratively, but mechanically, beginning and end of their sneak action would be behind cover.
I understand that would leave them open to being detected when the guard stepped into plain view of her, but specifically for the second action, I was wondering how that would work?
By RAW it would work like the example at 16:40. You do not need to maintain cover or concealment throughout the Sneak... you only need it when you start and when you finish. That said, GMs are absolutely free to rule differently, and this is one of those situations where I think they should. If the player wanted to move left in my game, I would require them to use the Create a Diversion action first.
When would you roll initiative in these circumstances? For example, when she sneaks into the student halls, say he check failed and the students detected her (and she is now hidden) - will she now roll stealth again for the initiative or would you use her failed roll. And what about the students who detected her - since it was against their Perception DC - are you just going to use the DC as the initiative, or will you roll Perception for them proper? And if the 3rd students did not detect her - (only the 2 behind the curtain did) - will he not roll initiative at all until the other two 'Point Out'?
You would keep her rolled stealth for initiative and they would all roll perception.
If a person who rolled perception and won was not one of those who noticed her, on that person's turn they could start by rolling a seek action (although some people feel this is metagaming) if you are playing with those type of people I would suggest using the delay action (which is a free action) to delay your turn until she was "pointed out" by someone who saw her.
Curious how you understand the use of "Step" in the following Success condition phrase "You become observed as soon as you do anything other than Hide, Sneak, or Step."? In other words, is the idea that you can Step as many times as you like after Sneak as long as you have cover/concealment?
I think by RAW that would be correct. If they want to go faster than 1 square, then they would Sneak again.
@dave why in the very first step of the example where the student is observed by Meri and she is sneaking does she maintain U&U status? Isn’t she instantly observed through window since she has not maintained cover?
I believe I wrote the example from the perspective that she was crouching down... the window isn't full-length and there is a table on the other side, so she had cover.
One scenario that you missed that you should add: sneaking up behind someone to stab them in the back. If you sneak up behind someone, then at the end of your move your stealth breaks as you are no longer in cover. So the target is not flatfooted when you Strike. What you actually need to do is, strike them with a ranged attack while you are still hidden, or have some ability that allows you to still be concealed after moving, or delays that check till the end of the turn (eg Goglin's Very Sneaky), or use the create a diversion action as that lasts till the end of your turn.
You say repeatedly that you need to be Hidden or Unobserved to be able to take the Sneak action, but I can't seem to find that rule, either in the Stealth skill, the Sneak action, or in any errata. What am I missing? If it's true, why isn't there a "REQUIREMENT: You must be Hidden or Unobserved" line under the Sneak action similar to how numerous other abilities have REQUIREMENT lines?
Check the "Being Stealthy" sidebar on page 251.
This was quite thorough but quick question that I may have missed - what is the point of the "Point Out" action? Description says it alerts your party members about a creature that is Undetected to them but not to you (to you it is Hidden). This will turn allow them to perceive the creature as Hidden. But since the only difference between the two statuses is knowing which square it is in (assuming battlemap play) - can't the player just attack the square and the other players would know where the creature is (when they have to select a square to attack an Undetected creature). Was this action primarily created for 'Theatre of the Mind' style of play?
Well, sometimes a character may not be able or willing to attack the square with the enemy, (because for example they can't attack it or prioritize defensive actions like Raise Shield or searching for Cover). Also, if for example a wizard casts Fireball against an undetected creature, his comrades may not be able to pinpoint the exact square, because a burst starts from one of the corner of a square, leaving up to four squares as options. However, I agree that attacking the square may be enough, provided, you hit the target or else your comrades can't be sure, if you actually have found an enemy or just attacking the wrong square. At least, not without metagaming. But effectively, the only difference would be, that the GM rolls the flat check of DC 11 for missing secretly, if you attack an undetected creature. As long as you can trust your GM, it shouldn't make any difference, I think.
Hey good video, just a question - at 22:00, you say she needs to hide before sneaking. But I've seen in some other videos/posts you say that if you can't tell where the person is with precise sense (behind total cover, out of line of sight, behind a watefall, etc.), then she is automatically hidden. Doesn't the guard have no line of sight/effect to her at that stage and so she becomes hidden automatically?
If there is no line-of-sight, then they can't be observed and would be hidden. At the beginning of that round, there is line-of-sight so she's being observed. Now, the question is... does she have to hide before she starts her stealth action.... or would moving into the next square where there is no line-of-sight automatically make her hidden on it's own. By RAW, you roll your Stealth check versus the Perception DC of anyone you were not hidden or undetected from at the start of the movement. So, you can either hide and then move... or move one square, instantly become Hidden and then take a Stealth action. But either way, you're spending 2 actions and IMO it just makes sense to hide first.
If it helps, check out the sidebar on page 251. This example was simply meant to replicate what is shown there.
@@HowItsPlayed Ok, I concede that standing in the corner of the bookcase, she probably only has greater/cover and can be observed. But I do wonder about whether a break of line of sight makes someone hidden (in the physical sense, they ARE hidden, but not sure rules wise). If you look at Avoid Notice, it certainly makes it as if you enter an encounter rolling Stealth '...as normal for Sneak...', which means you must have been Hidden prior (or you wouldn't be able to Sneak). This suggest that no LoS = Hidden, since the reason you were Hidden was because there was no enemy around before the encounter.
I also wonder if that means that if you fail your Avoid Notice - you start the encounter as Hidden (so long as the GM places your figure behind cover/concealment at start of encounter).
Technically, this example is already in "Encounter Mode" as they're using 3 actions per round. But if it moved to combat and I would likely use Merisiel's failed check as her initiative score and if she was behind the shelf with no line-of-sight she would start Hidden.
I’m still a bit confused as to why/when a stealth roll is used vs a stealth DC. If she used a stealth roll to move down the library stacks why does that no longer apply when the guard does a seek action? Is her roll only valid on her turn? Just for that action? Or just for the circumstance she’s trying to overcome?
Any hoo another great video on a very complex subject! Thank you.
This helped more than three other resources I looked at first. Thank you.
Great vid! However, correct me if I’m wrong, but a creature must roll a Stealth check to Conceal an Object in an environment against the Perception DC of any other observing creature.
If you are trying to hide it without anyone noticing, then yes (it's not so much "roll a check because you're being observed" as the player saying, "I think someone might be watching, so I want to hide this without being seen").
However the way it's worded is that's an exception to the rule as written. I think the rule assumes you're making sure you're hiding something while you're alone. So, by RAW, you do not roll on a typical Conceal an Object action. It's like any other action... if you do not believe you are being watched, and therefore are not trying to avoid notice, you would not roll a Stealth Check. Which is different from all other Stealth actions in that you only use them specifically when you believe you are being watched and are trying to avoid notice.
I think this is an important distinction because many other RPG systems say something like "Roll a Stealth Check when you hide something. This total becomes the DC for anyone who may try to find it in the future," and I wanted to be crystal clear that that is not how things work in Pathfinder 2e.
Basics4Gamers, the distinction between PF2e and other RPG games is important to make. A lot of long-time players of the hobby are going to adjudicate the rules incorrectly, so thank you very much for clarifying.
Reading over the Conceal an Object rules again, it doesn’t seem to me that the RAW makes any assumption on whether a creature is hiding an object while alone or not. (Only what happens if another creature actively Seeks.) So, in the end, I think we are both correct. Maybe it’s worth updating the video to explain both scenarios, hiding an object when alone vs hiding an object when not alone?
is there any maluses to perception depending on distance ? Also would an occupied character like the studen reading get a malus ? What about a sleeping character ?
A sleeping character automatically fails any perception check using only sight and suffers a -4 penalty to Perception using their hearing. There are no hard rules for penalties due to distance or being occupied, so it's up to the GM to make a judgement call and apply a penalty (if any) using the table on page 504.
Any way to get a rules reminder on ranged sneak attack?
Great tutorials.
I hate that alert noise btw,,,
So wait, if a character has taken the hide action on their turn, and then after their turn an enemy previously unaware of them with +1000 to perception enters the room, there's absolutely no chance that creature spots the hiding creature unless it takes a seek action or that creature loses concealment or cover?
If that's correct, how often might a creature take a seek action in a day of casual life? If it's like a creature with super-hearing, I find it difficult to believe it would not just automatically notice a creature with a stealth DC of 5 just by its breathing.
I pity the rogue that has to deal with a +1000 perception modifier
At around 13.50 you say that the GM determines the DC to detect someone not trying to hide. at 12:10, you claim that the two students not taking the Seek action have no chance to spot Merrisial. Is that not a double standard of sorts? What's more, I can't seem to find the rule that supports either claim. Could you please cite your source?
In the reference to the GM determining the DC when the target is not attempting to be stealthy, that's simply a DC to see if Merisiel can hear the student through the door. I'm not sure of a page number reference for that... nothing in 2nd Ed that says "The DC to listen through a wooden door is X". It's a bit of shooting from the hip.
In the case of the passing students, they don't have a chance to detect her because they were not using the Seek action (Merisiel was using Seek in the other example). And note that the example was assuming the game was in Encounter mode, not Exploration.
The rules that reference using Seek to detect a hiding creature are covered in the last paragraph of Hide, in the Success entry of Stealth (end of it), and the Seek Action on page 471.
I'll be the first to agree that the stealth and perception rules are complex -- and putting this video together took quite a bit of hunting for rules, but I *think* that's the way it works in absence of a "Passive Perception" like other games.
So can you hide with Light Cover? ie hiding behind an ally?
No, the first sentence of Hide specifies it must be Cover or Greater Cover. However, there is a feat that lets halflings use people for cover for the purposes of stealth.
Hello please, can you answer a specific question.. If I was to cast a SILENT SPELL whilst HIDING. would I then be observed??
That's largely going to be up the the GM. All Silent Spell does is remove the verbal component of the spell, but everything else about casting the spell is still obvious. Think of Doctor Strange from the Marvel movies. If part of casting your spell causes a big green light to emanate from your body and you're hiding in a shadowed corner of a dark room, then you probably just reveled yourself. But this largely is the GM's call.
@@HowItsPlayed Thank you for replying.. there is no specific rule about this.. but it would depend on the spell (IMHO) If you're casting a big fireball then everyone is going to see that .. however, if there is only one foe in the area.. and you cast "Daze" silenced from hiding.. then, in theory, you should still be hidden.
question: as a dm how am i supposed to manage a player playing a rogue/alchemist with smoke bomb feat? He'd like to play role like batman (hit and hide) and i thought i may make the npc roll a perception check with a malus. IF he has a good roll he detects him and can try to hit without a malus, otherwise he loses the action (he looks around trying to understand enemy position and acting sneaky) What do you think about it?
If the player uses a smoke bomb, then they gain the Concealed condition. This by itself does not prevent anyone from seeing him, but it does allow them to use the Hide and Sneak actions. The biggest problem may be the action economy... it will cost 1 action to make the smoke bomb with quick alchemy, another 1 action to throw the smoke bomb, and then a third action to hide... which means they wouldn't be able to do this in the same round as attacking an enemy.
@@HowItsPlayed meh, how can smoke be usefull in an offensive way?
At 11:44 you say that any target you attack while sneaking is flat-footed against you for the first attack. However, in the Core Rulebook, from what I can find, you become observed the moment BEFORE the attack and the target loses flat-footed. Was there an edit or something that I’m just not seeing?
That's from the "Success" text on page 252. Start of the second paragraph: "If you attempt to Strike a creature, the creature remains flat-footed against that attack, and you then become observed."
Basics4Gamers thank you very much! This makes the rogue sneak attack actually useful beyond flanking lol
You're welcome! :)
Basics4Gamers now that I’m looking at things again, the complaints about “breaking stealth before an attack” all seem to be from during the play test, which is what confused me. They definitely fixed it before print
Basics4Gamers although, since you become observed if you don’t end behind cover, could you only attack someone with a ranged Strike while taking penalties from cover? I don’t see any option, by RAW, to get a melee attack from Stealth
The alert sound effect on this video is unnecessarily loud.
Other than that, great video
What about Create a Diversion? It allows you to begin Sneaking, but if you finish your move without cover do you get to roll for Sneak or are you automatically Observed?
If you succeed with Create a Diversion you're "Hidden" until the end of your turn. So as long as you are not in the open at the end of your turn, you should be fine.
@@HowItsPlayed but what if you are in the open after the Sneak move (before the end of the turn), don't you get Observed? Why not?
@@LuizBGomide If you succeed at Create a Diversion, everyone who is affected by it is looking the other direction until the end of that turn (i.e. you gain the Hidden condition against them). So, if you end your second action standing out in the open, you're still "Hidden" to those people, and can try to use your third action to get behind cover for when the Diversion wears off. Of course, if you're standing out in the open after your second action and in clear view of people who were not affected by Create a Diversion, then yes -- those people would automatically spot you. And if you're out in the open after the third action, then you're spotted because that's when the Diversion ends.
@@HowItsPlayed would you roll for Sneak if you are already Hidden? If so and you crit fail, are you Observed then?
@@LuizBGomideYou could, if you want to move from Hidden to Undetected. And on a critical failure you're automatically observed unless you have something special going on, like invisibility.
I know this is very confusing... it always gives me a headache. :)
Do you go to encounter mode when stealthing?
The rules for Encounter Mode when stealthing are the same as anything else. You enter Encounter Mode when the GM decides it is best to measure time in 6-second turns, rather than in minutes (or hours).
I cannot find anything in the rulebook stating that you have to end and start your sneak in cover or concealment. Could you point me to those rules?
Sure. "At the end of your movement, the GM rolls your Stealth
check in secret and compares the result to the Perception DC of each creature you were hidden from or undetected by at the start of your movement."
So, you need to be hidden or undetected at the start of your movement. If you don't have cover or concealment, then you would have been observed at the start of the movement (I'm assuming vision is the only precise sense being used to simplify things a little).
It then says, "You don’t get to roll
against a creature if, at the end of your movement, you neither are concealed from it nor have cover or greater cover against it. " So, you need to have cover or concealment at the end of your movement.
But it also states that between the start and finish of your move, you do not need to maintain cover, but if you do you get a bonus to your check. "If you have cover or greater
cover from the creature throughout your Stride, you gain the
+2 circumstance bonus from cover (or +4 from greater cover) to your Stealth check."
So, you need cover or concealment at the start to be hidden or undetected, and you need it at the end or else you're not allowed to roll the check. You do not need it in the middle, but if you have cover, you get a bonus.
@@HowItsPlayed Damm that's complicated but does it even make possible a situation when you make an attack while being Hidden? Immediately when you end your move action and you're in the open, even when you're facing to the back of the opponent you become OBSERVED. If you hide in the berrel you have to come outof the barrel for 1 Action and you're not Hidden anymore. I can't think of a situation where someone will be able to make an attack while being Hidden and Sneaking, assuming that my players always use torches in the dungeons, they can't be attacked by anyone being hidden :(
@@GamingMansion Yeah, I know what you mean. It can feel a little tricky. But something to keep in mind is that Pathfinder does not take facing into account. It's assumed that characters are always vigilant and aware of their immediate surroundings. So, technically speaking, "even when you're facing to the back of the opponent" isn't a thing as far as the rules are concerned.
You can attack while hidden if you have cover or concealment. Lurking in a deep shadow, waiting for your target to walk past your hiding spot, etc. If you want to tip-toe up behind a target in the open without cover or concealment, the GM absolutely can make a judgement call that the target doesn't notice. I've done that before when I felt the target's attention was someplace else.
Another option is the Distract action found under the Deception skill. You could spend an action distracting the target... then sneak up right behind them... and then attack. Because if Distract works, you are hidden to target until the end of the turn (or until you take an action that would reveal yourself, like stabbing them).
@@HowItsPlayed Thanks for the awesome tips! I was hoping the recently released Gamemaster guide would shed some light or add new rules to the surprise attacks but I didn't find anything of this sort. I feel hidden sneak attacks should be rare yet possible, especially in the dark but it seems so limited with this rule set.
@@GamingMansion No problem! I'm glad to help.
Hello i'm studying core rulebook.
If your are unnoticed can you attack with flat footed condition a creature after sneak and finish it with no cover ? Thanks
Thanks for the suggestion!
It was a question not a suggestion. I wondering if it's possible.
An another question. You sneak an ennemi. You finish your movement under cover. You are always undetected can you make a step near the ennemy . Can you strike him with flat footed condition ? Thanks for answers.
I precise your are not after the step.
Not cover
No you can't, you need something else to help you do that.
So why even roll to Conceal and Object if the number doesn’t matter and they go against your Stealth DC ? Maybe I missed something ?
The roll is vs. others just passively observing you and noticing the object. It's only if you are actively being searched by a guard or someone like that when they get to roll against your DC.
Short of the GM calling it unobtrusive, wouldn't Merrsial's Step action to the professor's office door expose her in some way?
The five foot step action is supposed to be unobtrusive enough that you don't even activate reactions. It's a safe, but limited way to move.
The Hide action states that you don't lose the hidden condition when you Step. The Hide rules also, again, give the GM extra leeway to account for common sense. If the GM determines the Stepping out of cover into the open is obtrusive, then it can still expose you.
So it means you can still succeed at your stealth check but if the npc actively seeking you succeed then it sees you (and you failed?...) ???....That doesn't make sense....Also, what you write at 4:36 is different than what is written in the core book....you say "the total of your stealth check" and the rule book says "check against your stealth DC"....My read on this is if both are actively trying to do something against the other than both rolls checks and compare results to see who wins.
There are no opposed rolls in PF2e. No one goes at the same time. Everyone takes turns, and on their turn they roll against any set DC that might oppose what ever thing they are trying to do. Then when it's the other persons turn, they get to roll against the original persons set DC.
Great
👍
Great explanation of the rules...unfortunate that what could be a very simple mechanic was complicated so much.
Agreed. Every situation ends up needing a battle grid and every round may take several minutes. I turns into a board-game, almost.
Complicated compared to what?
Compared to most other stealth systems for TTRPGs
@@mi.Dalton It isn't...... what systems are you comparing it to?
So...how does this assertion interact with the Goblin Ancestry feat: Very Sneaky, which implies the opposite of what you've stated about moving from cover to cover?
The key difference is without Very Sneaky you need to have cover or concealment at the end of *each* Sneak Action. So, if you start the round Hidden from an enemy and take the Sneak Action, you move half your speed and do not need to maintain cover or concealment throughout the movement, but must have it at the end of the movement. And then if you want to Sneak with your second action, you move again and must have cover or concealment at the end of that movement. And if you want to Sneak again with your third action, you repeat the process and must have cover or concealment at the end of the turn.
But if a goblin with Very Sneaky wants to Sneak three times on their turn, they don't need to have cover or concealment at the end of their first action or the end of their second action. As long as they succeed on their Stealth Checks, they only need to have cover or concealment at the end of their turn (after their third action).
Without Very Sneaky you "bounce" from cover to cover. With Very Sneaky you can go straight to your final destination, as long as that spot provides cover or concealment.
why have a d20 in the first place if everything is just DCs why not just do "your stealth Vs their perception" without rolls at this point? or old school opposed rolls? This seems like a needlessly complicated take on a perviously simple concept?
Shout out to you in my latest video. Check the thirty-three minute mark of "Pathfinder 2E - How to Get Playing"
Your stuff is good. I love it. Keep it going! Will hype your work because it's awesome and helps players everywhere!
Thanks, man! I really appreciate the mention and card! I'll hit you back some time... I've been meaning to make a non-rules video just about the channel itself and other cool people out there.
Wow, stealth sucks hard now. Thanks for the informative video(I'm serious, thank you. I understand 2e Stealth now and why I won't ever attempt it before level 7 for Quick Sneak)
What?? Stealth doesn't at all suck in 2e. It's a very powerful strategy and lots of fun. Can you explain why you think it sucks?
Great as always, but that metal gear solid alert sound scared the sh*t out of me.
Yeah, sorry about that. I wish I could update the video without breaking the link or entirely taking it down.
Pooped my pants at 15:41.
But did she escape!?
I have low volume on my phone and that sound is still very loud
annoying
this whole bit feels so weird to me as I'm coming from 5e. the fact that you made a very HIGH Stealth or concealment check one your turn becoming null and void by rule of thumb here just doesn't sit with me. I know it's supposed to be this way, but there's just something there that bothers me. idk my mind is a mystery even to me... but great video anyways, I can better understand the mechanics of Pathfinder with these videos.
I hand wave 99% of these stealth rolls its annoying and intrusive to make sure you roll stealth 50 times just to open a door.
... who wrote these rules? How did they get through playtesting? In the best of scenarios the math is 75% in favor of the perception skill, and that's just on the first checkpoint never mind a whole stealth mission. There is literally not even a point in trying to overcome something more complicated than a bouncer, because the rules are written to force a stealth fail by pure math.
I really wish the "has to have cover" aspect of stealth wasn't there. As is, stealth is just to cumbersome to use and I would bet even most rogues don't make use of it for that reason.
It is interesting why there is no 1 action, 2 action or 3 action Sneak each giving 0 -2 -4 penalty to the sneak. I don't know if that would be too strong?
Very Sneaky, Very Very Sneaky, Swift Sneak and Legendary Sneak could just remove that penalty with addition to what they do.
things that help the sneaking are following things:
lvl 1 Goblin Very Sneaky = as long you start and end behind cover and don't fail stealth roll you can sneak three times.
lvl 13 Very Very sneaky = Sneak full speed
lvl 7 Skill Feat Swift Sneak = Sneak Full speed and don't need cover at all.
lvl 15 Skill Feat Legendary Sneak ) Sneak Full speed, don't need cover at all and can avoid notice while doing other activities.
I think the rules are better in PF2e unlike D&D 5e or what I recall the rules being way more unclear and unforgiving but I have not read the rules for while.
The rules for transitioning into Encounter mode are such a disaster in PF2.
In my game = "Make a stealth roll, oh you got a 18? Great you manage to sneak/hide/conceal". That simple. What a load of complication in this game at times.