Fantastic guide. Going forward, I could also see you take this by showing a "report card" style overview for how good generally the class is at each role. Like right now, I have a Flurry Ranger who is a an S-tier Right Hand, but is also good at a couple of other roles due to completely punting ranged offense.
Heal role can also be covered by a wider variety of classes without WIS investment if they take Assurance: Medicine and anyone goes up a tier or 2 if they take the Medic/herbalist/blessed one, etc archetypes. I love that about PF2! Also, a few special mentions for the Skill Role: Swashbuckler, Enigma (Lore) Bards, Unified Theory arcanists, and diverse lore thaumaturges in S tier skill role. Skill compression is "almost" as good as having extra skills. It's better in the long run, except compared to Rogues/Investigators. I'd suggest either limiting S tier to high # of trained skill classes, or adding an s+ tier for classes that can get extra skills to legendary.
On the support role ... There are about eight different support options: status bonus, status penalty, circ bonus, circ penalty and then for AC attacks and saves. I would classify the tiers based on how many of these categories they can use without conflicting with alies.
6:19 I agree. 100%. I love an effective archer. Even if the barbarian might hit harder. The Archer Snopes out targets before they can hurt the front line, and picks off skirmishes trying to ambush the healers. Excellent role. Love the Archer. It definitely can take some effort in PF2 to get the ranged DPS to a competitive level, but a couple of the options make it so effective, that even if it doesn't always hit as hard as the elite melee folks, It hits where you need, when you need.
The party members that were replaced in the campaign were an armored Hobgoblin wizard sub pally (played by RtK) who was a really cool build and one of my favorite PCs, and a construct inventor sub gunslinger, who literally ruined encounters. The new party is an absolute POWERHOUSE that so far has been very good in any encounter they have faced, except for stealth.
27:05 Again, anytime a Race Social Thauma, consider Regalia. It buffs all three Social skills at initiate. That increase at Adept. It buffs allies vs Fear. That increases at adept, to vs Mental. It also allows the Thauma to lead by example, with Expert, with a buff, and improves at Adept. Starting with Adept, Regalia grants a damage buff to allies inside the Aura. Every ally can now deal bonus damage, being near the thauma (within 15) as early as 7th level. 5th level also unlocks the 2nd implement and this is a great choice for the WEAPON implement and a returning thrown wpn. The reaction is devastating to enemies, can be performed with reach or at 10 ft range with thrown. Returning ensures you always have your weapon at hand, And will reduce action cost to engage enemies. Skill choices include Medicine for Treat Wounds, and Battle Medicine, remember even if someone else has it already, you can use yours in addition. Party of 3 gains 3 extra potions this way, party of 6, gains 6 extra potions this way. Take assurance, so that you never harm an ally in a crisis, negating all penalties. Also forgives a modest Wisdom score. Athletics, plus assurance, grants excellent options for combat maneuvers, rewards STR and allows assurance to negate penalties, Ie MAP. Two great combat skills that allow the thauma to contribute with second and 3rd actions. Regalia, is a sleeper. A subtle benefit at initiate, but. A permanent free buff to allies vs Fear within 15. A permanent buff to Thauma Social skills.
5:43 From Experience, I would include the Thaumaturge in that list, beside Barb or Fighter. perhaps with the weapon implement reaction, or the Regalia bonus damage at mid level... I know that the accuracy is technically one step behind. And potentially 2 steps behind, if the Thauma has lower Strength, and lower proficiency. However. The ability to trigger Weaknesses, or Bypass Resistances, is just so effective. I do agree that ranged Flurry Ranger needed help to get the damage up. And I agree that Gunslinger has the accuracy, but deals with reloading and potentially reduced damage averages. Our Thaumaturge has been an absolute force to reckon with. From 1st level through 11th. Love to chat more. Thanks for the video.
14:21 Don't sleep on the Rogue healer, with Assurance Medicine. Add a few skill feats to expand useful Treat Wounds, or reduce timeouts on Battle Medicine. Also the medical Investigator sub class, Can Battle Medicine Hourly. Rather than daily. Which might not seem to be as strong as the Clerics Divine Healing Font, But can be used significantly more often across a long adventure day.
To give my conjecture based on new Classes and Class Archetypes from War of Immortals and Lost Omens: Divine Mysteries: -Exemplar seems like they can effectively take up the Hammer or Cannon role in a party, or potentially a good Right Hand or even Mid Guard position in a party depending on Ikon, Feat, and Weapon choice, among others. -Animist, being built off of the Medium class from PF1e (on top of the Shaman class from that game), is also a class built to be one of the most versatile in the game. If your party needs something, an Animist can probably dedicate their daily preparations to that. However, due to a lack of real skill proficiencies, they seem best as either a Mid Guard, Healer, or even a Right Hand sometimes. -The Battle Harbinger Class Archetype seems tailor-made to be a Right Hand given their emphasis on battle auras like Bless, Bane, Benediction, and Malediction. Mid Guard may *technically* be doable, but it would be hard. And the rest of the class archetypes... admittedly, they don't change much about their identity as drastically as the Battle harbinger does. Bloodrager could be a Right Hand, but they are still a Barbarian, and likely still a Hammer. Vindicator is still very Ranger, Avenger is still very Rogue, Seneschal is still very Witch, etc. Just wanted to get something out there for those wondering. Thank you for this video!
15:17 Just for anyone interested in the Face role. Charisma is perhaps the least important piece of the puzzle. Your Proficiency bonus climbs faster than the Charisma bonus does. A High Charisma character who neglects their proficiency will fall far behind the mid to low Charisma PC who invests in Expert/Master/Legendary proficiency. For anyone who can justify a +1 or +2 or +3 Charisma, and invest in some of the social skills, You simply won't be very far behind the High Charisma face. You also are potentially able to catch up to them while they invest in Charisma 19/20 with half Boosts, Bringing your Charisma 14 to CHA 18. While the maxed Charisma Maxed Prof character with buffs may lead the S+ tier, It is possible to be very beneficial with even a modest investment. One great example. Demoralize has a timeout per character. So once the Primary face has Demoralized a target, That's it. Then the secondary can shine in following rounds.
17:34 At our table. We have a Thaumaturge and a Fire Kineticist. Together x the volume of damage they inflict upon the enemy is terrifying. With support and Ranged DPs contributed by party (Ie Psychic spells and Flurry Ranger Arrows) The fire Kineticist unloads an impressive amount of damage to up to 6 enemies every turn. Within 30 ft. With their first 2 actions. The Thaumaturge has been pummeling enemies from 1st and 2nd level. Including a 40+ damage finisher to end the beginner box green dragon. At 2nd level. Together they have been our Hammers. At lowest levels, we originally had a Mountain Monk as an Anvil for our Thauma hammer. But the Monk switched to a Thauma and has been steamrolling.
11:48 For support Buffing / debuff ing I would include any specialized Athletics maneuver PC. Consistent Trips, Grabs, Shoves, and even Disarms, Can be amazing. Assurance Athletics is a great way to ignore MAP and other penalties, Or for a low STR PC to contribute in a big way. When the frail wizard can reliably trip the Ogre (Narrate with a Mage hand trick, or a magical snare or net to grab or trip) That is reliable benefit to the entire party.
9:13 For ranged damage excellence, I would have to include the Flurry Ranger Archer. The total DPs on a single hut might not always be impressive before striking. But. With Hunted Shot, and the reduced MAP, There is an impressive potential there. The first shot accuracy is slightly lower than a maxed out Gunslinger, but the second shot is usually close to tied 9r better, and 3rd,4th and 5th shots are generally on par with the Fighters 2nd strike. Depending on ability scores, weapon enhancements, class features, etc.
May have mentioned this build on the channel before as its my favourite but a wit swashbuckler with all for one and flying blade makes for a hilarious mid-guard/diplomat package with an upside of being really mobile. I noticed swash's didnt get a mention in the vid, is this purposeful or an oversight?
I've got a swash in my balanced party of five, and I'm pretty sure I mentioned them as being pretty good in the ranged role too due to their high DEX. At any rate, I love swashbucklers for the Right Hand role!
Classic Party of 4 Fighter, Thief, Mage, Priest Hammer: Fighter, though you could also right hand for the priest or rogue in a pinch Right Hand: Warpriest, also slots neatly into healer Midguard: Rogue, also can fill professional or face, dealer's choice Cannon: Wizard, also can be professional, so maybe have the rogue face
I'm running the fourth session of my first Pathfinder campaign in a few hours. The party has definitely found themselves in a few tight spots already, but they've pulled through. They have a bard, a wizard, a swashbuckler, a ranger, and a cleric.
I'm curious what your party of 3 might be, in a circumstance where due to the numbers the characters need to fill more roles, and specializing in a particular aspect comes at the cost in other gaps in the line-up.
Rogue/Dex Ranger/Investigator feels essential to me in a 3 member party. Having one character that can be A-tier or better in melee AND ranged damage, plus lots of skills is just amazing.
Currently in a game with myself as a Fire/Metal Kineticist as the face Tank / HP tank (metal carapace is so cool). I can deliver far ranged damage with weapon infusion to act as a bow or consistent melee damage with a reach elemental melee blast (EMB) / agile EMB. Took my archetype as battle medic since we were a bit sore for that so I can self heal out of combat and took battle medicine for in combat healing. It’s a lot of tankiness for LVL 2 with 18 ac + a regenerating (metal carapace) shield and 32 hp so I’m very surprised it works so well
Would like to point out a melee character with high mobility can also be a pretty good mid guard such as a monk or swashbuckler. Though I suppose you could classify them as a “roamer” more than anything else.
The group of all new players I joined ended up similar by mistake, though we kind of lack a cannon. Investigator w/ healing focus, Champion (dex based), Braggart Swashbuckler, Occult Witch, and Giant Instinct Barbarian. We haven't really homed in on team synergy yet though.
I wonder why you didn't include Tanking as a separate role like most people include. Do you fold that into melee and support? Also You only briefly cover ranged AOE damage in the ranged damage role, but that seems very different than single target ranged damage.
Minor spoiler alert - thief rogue is in my party of 3 builds that I ended up cutting from this video. I will probably add those builds as a comment or a follow-up video.
Thief isn't that fabulous on ranged damage, just A tier really (at best). They have a medium weapon die at best (with an accuracy penalty), no ability mod bonuses to damage, and probably the hardest racket to reliably get off-guard for ranged strikes. I'd suggest a scoundrel with pistol twirl or mastermind for much better ranged damage and still great melee damage. All Thief has going for it is A+ melee damage. Without getting to use weapons bigger than a D6 or D8 with 2 hands, they'll never be S or S+ tier in melee.
In our party we have an Orc Barbarian ( hammer) Swashbuckler ( right hand) rogue ( right hand ) hob goblin ranger ( canon) and my own character Gnome Bard who picks up multiple rolls as midguard, healer, diplomatic etc. Out of fight and in social scenarios the Bard is comfortably the face. In fights he finds himself juggling with too many roles and not enough resources. He is able to mete out some ranged area damage as a first strike option but once combat is underway he is supporting with buffs/debuffs and healings and is well stretched at doing that. He has picked up healing items to assist with out of mele battle damage recovery. Oh and he is a beastmaster as well having a riding drake to offer some personal protection and an elephant to assist in carrying party treasure in a scenario where extra dimensional spaces have been disabled. ( Should have seen the GM's face when he called in the elephant to move all the stash instead of having to make hard decisions as to which to leave and which to carry 😂 As you know... Bards rule but even moreso with some potent animal companions.
Why not a Rogue Thief as a hammer? With the +4 static, +7 hit and sneak it fulfills all the requirements you had in your other video for an S tier dmg character.
It slightly misses the requirements since sneak isn't automatic. You might go entire encounters without landing any sneak attack damage (for example, if you can't flank and fail at feinting). But it's definitely a good build, which is why it's included in my video from today! th-cam.com/video/i7_yknmYIUQ/w-d-xo.html
I kind of disagree with melee and ranged. I would put both of them under the striker role. Their objective is to bring ennemy hp to 0 as fast as possible. Melee and ranged are just two different tactics you can use to do this with their pros and cons,although the party should always have backup ranged options. And instead of melee i would put grappler/tank. The are generally very hard to kill martials who try to debuff ennemy offense and force them to focus on them. Grappler because the best way to do that is to invest in athletics and feats to grapple. They are important because bosses are extremly dangerous in pathfinder. Someone have to hold the front line to prevent it from oneshotting the wizard. .
I play in one game and Gm another. The game I play in originally had only 3 players but has added one more recently: Shield and claw fighter is our Hammer - the play likes to throw his shield a la Captain America so he can do some decent ranged damage (Str+4, Dex +2 to start - the gradual ability boost so Dex +3 at level 2) Arcane Ancestors Bloodline Sorcerer - Cannon - does a lot of AOE and targeted damage Precision ranger with animal companion and taking all skill feats to maximize Medicine - Cannon/Right Hand/Healer - I'm the party healer and bought the gloves of medicine/healing as first item purchase. With free archetype (using because fun and only 3 in party) took Beast Master so that companion can grow a little faster and provide consistent flank with the fighter we have recently added a Thaumaturge - chaos monkey - mostly right hand/diplomat - mirror implement, some charisma skills but player is pretty much a chaos monkey and this is her first RPG experience so we are just letting her embrace her random impulses The table I DM: Melee precision ranger with druid archetype - front-line hammer CHA based psychic - support/face Empiric investigator - professional/cannon Braggart swashbuckler - right-hand/support Both groups have been reallly successful. The table I DM has some healing limitations but has been pretty successful and getting the enemies knocked down pretty fast. The Psychic has a limited amount of healing when she unleashes.
Fantastic guide. Going forward, I could also see you take this by showing a "report card" style overview for how good generally the class is at each role. Like right now, I have a Flurry Ranger who is a an S-tier Right Hand, but is also good at a couple of other roles due to completely punting ranged offense.
This is, in my opinion, the best video of yours i have seen. Great for new players, and experienced players as well.
Heal role can also be covered by a wider variety of classes without WIS investment if they take Assurance: Medicine and anyone goes up a tier or 2 if they take the Medic/herbalist/blessed one, etc archetypes. I love that about PF2!
Also, a few special mentions for the Skill Role: Swashbuckler, Enigma (Lore) Bards, Unified Theory arcanists, and diverse lore thaumaturges in S tier skill role. Skill compression is "almost" as good as having extra skills. It's better in the long run, except compared to Rogues/Investigators. I'd suggest either limiting S tier to high # of trained skill classes, or adding an s+ tier for classes that can get extra skills to legendary.
On the support role ... There are about eight different support options: status bonus, status penalty, circ bonus, circ penalty and then for AC attacks and saves. I would classify the tiers based on how many of these categories they can use without conflicting with alies.
what about a party of 3? I'm interested on your thoughts on how that would balance!
Nice coffee sack decoration back there! 🇧🇷
Just discovered your channel and I'm really impressed. This was entertaining and informative. Definitely going to go back and watch your other ones!
6:19
I agree.
100%.
I love an effective archer.
Even if the barbarian might hit harder. The Archer Snopes out targets before they can hurt the front line, and picks off skirmishes trying to ambush the healers.
Excellent role. Love the Archer.
It definitely can take some effort in PF2 to get the ranged DPS to a competitive level, but a couple of the options make it so effective, that even if it doesn't always hit as hard as the elite melee folks,
It hits where you need, when you need.
The party members that were replaced in the campaign were an armored Hobgoblin wizard sub pally (played by RtK) who was a really cool build and one of my favorite PCs, and a construct inventor sub gunslinger, who literally ruined encounters.
The new party is an absolute POWERHOUSE that so far has been very good in any encounter they have faced, except for stealth.
Viva la bush
Also, sticker has a bunch of stealth, just doesn't use it
27:05
Again, anytime a Race Social Thauma, consider Regalia.
It buffs all three Social skills at initiate. That increase at Adept.
It buffs allies vs Fear.
That increases at adept, to vs Mental.
It also allows the Thauma to lead by example, with Expert, with a buff, and improves at Adept.
Starting with Adept, Regalia grants a damage buff to allies inside the Aura.
Every ally can now deal bonus damage, being near the thauma (within 15) as early as 7th level.
5th level also unlocks the 2nd implement and this is a great choice for the WEAPON implement and a returning thrown wpn.
The reaction is devastating to enemies, can be performed with reach or at 10 ft range with thrown.
Returning ensures you always have your weapon at hand,
And will reduce action cost to engage enemies.
Skill choices include Medicine for Treat Wounds, and Battle Medicine, remember even if someone else has it already, you can use yours in addition.
Party of 3 gains 3 extra potions this way, party of 6, gains 6 extra potions this way.
Take assurance, so that you never harm an ally in a crisis, negating all penalties. Also forgives a modest Wisdom score.
Athletics, plus assurance, grants excellent options for combat maneuvers, rewards STR and allows assurance to negate penalties, Ie MAP.
Two great combat skills that allow the thauma to contribute with second and 3rd actions.
Regalia, is a sleeper. A subtle benefit at initiate, but.
A permanent free buff to allies vs Fear within 15.
A permanent buff to Thauma Social skills.
5:43
From Experience, I would include the Thaumaturge in that list, beside Barb or Fighter.
perhaps with the weapon implement reaction, or the Regalia bonus damage at mid level...
I know that the accuracy is technically one step behind.
And potentially 2 steps behind, if the Thauma has lower Strength, and lower proficiency.
However. The ability to trigger Weaknesses, or Bypass Resistances, is just so effective.
I do agree that ranged Flurry Ranger needed help to get the damage up.
And I agree that Gunslinger has the accuracy, but deals with reloading and potentially reduced damage averages.
Our Thaumaturge has been an absolute force to reckon with.
From 1st level through 11th.
Love to chat more.
Thanks for the video.
14:21
Don't sleep on the Rogue healer, with Assurance Medicine.
Add a few skill feats to expand useful Treat Wounds, or reduce timeouts on Battle Medicine.
Also the medical Investigator sub class,
Can Battle Medicine Hourly. Rather than daily.
Which might not seem to be as strong as the Clerics Divine Healing Font,
But can be used significantly more often across a long adventure day.
To give my conjecture based on new Classes and Class Archetypes from War of Immortals and Lost Omens: Divine Mysteries:
-Exemplar seems like they can effectively take up the Hammer or Cannon role in a party, or potentially a good Right Hand or even Mid Guard position in a party depending on Ikon, Feat, and Weapon choice, among others.
-Animist, being built off of the Medium class from PF1e (on top of the Shaman class from that game), is also a class built to be one of the most versatile in the game. If your party needs something, an Animist can probably dedicate their daily preparations to that. However, due to a lack of real skill proficiencies, they seem best as either a Mid Guard, Healer, or even a Right Hand sometimes.
-The Battle Harbinger Class Archetype seems tailor-made to be a Right Hand given their emphasis on battle auras like Bless, Bane, Benediction, and Malediction. Mid Guard may *technically* be doable, but it would be hard.
And the rest of the class archetypes... admittedly, they don't change much about their identity as drastically as the Battle harbinger does. Bloodrager could be a Right Hand, but they are still a Barbarian, and likely still a Hammer. Vindicator is still very Ranger, Avenger is still very Rogue, Seneschal is still very Witch, etc.
Just wanted to get something out there for those wondering. Thank you for this video!
15:17
Just for anyone interested in the Face role.
Charisma is perhaps the least important piece of the puzzle.
Your Proficiency bonus climbs faster than the Charisma bonus does.
A High Charisma character who neglects their proficiency will fall far behind the mid to low Charisma PC who invests in Expert/Master/Legendary proficiency.
For anyone who can justify a +1 or +2 or +3 Charisma, and invest in some of the social skills,
You simply won't be very far behind the High Charisma face.
You also are potentially able to catch up to them while they invest in Charisma 19/20 with half Boosts,
Bringing your Charisma 14 to CHA 18.
While the maxed Charisma Maxed Prof character with buffs may lead the S+ tier,
It is possible to be very beneficial with even a modest investment.
One great example.
Demoralize has a timeout per character.
So once the Primary face has Demoralized a target,
That's it.
Then the secondary can shine in following rounds.
17:34
At our table.
We have a Thaumaturge and a Fire Kineticist.
Together x the volume of damage they inflict upon the enemy is terrifying.
With support and Ranged DPs contributed by party (Ie Psychic spells and Flurry Ranger Arrows)
The fire Kineticist unloads an impressive amount of damage to up to 6 enemies every turn. Within 30 ft.
With their first 2 actions.
The Thaumaturge has been pummeling enemies from 1st and 2nd level.
Including a 40+ damage finisher to end the beginner box green dragon. At 2nd level.
Together they have been our Hammers.
At lowest levels, we originally had a Mountain Monk as an Anvil for our Thauma hammer. But the Monk switched to a Thauma and has been steamrolling.
11:48
For support
Buffing / debuff ing
I would include any specialized Athletics maneuver PC.
Consistent Trips, Grabs, Shoves, and even Disarms,
Can be amazing.
Assurance Athletics is a great way to ignore MAP and other penalties,
Or for a low STR PC to contribute in a big way.
When the frail wizard can reliably trip the Ogre (Narrate with a Mage hand trick, or a magical snare or net to grab or trip)
That is reliable benefit to the entire party.
9:13
For ranged damage excellence,
I would have to include the Flurry Ranger Archer.
The total DPs on a single hut might not always be impressive before striking.
But.
With Hunted Shot, and the reduced MAP,
There is an impressive potential there.
The first shot accuracy is slightly lower than a maxed out Gunslinger, but the second shot is usually close to tied 9r better, and 3rd,4th and 5th shots are generally on par with the Fighters 2nd strike.
Depending on ability scores, weapon enhancements, class features, etc.
May have mentioned this build on the channel before as its my favourite but a wit swashbuckler with all for one and flying blade makes for a hilarious mid-guard/diplomat package with an upside of being really mobile. I noticed swash's didnt get a mention in the vid, is this purposeful or an oversight?
i think it was an oversight. ive come up with the same build, it goes kinda crazy
I've got a swash in my balanced party of five, and I'm pretty sure I mentioned them as being pretty good in the ranged role too due to their high DEX. At any rate, I love swashbucklers for the Right Hand role!
@@RebelThenKing My mistake, noticed it on a rewatch.
Classic Party of 4
Fighter, Thief, Mage, Priest
Hammer: Fighter, though you could also right hand for the priest or rogue in a pinch
Right Hand: Warpriest, also slots neatly into healer
Midguard: Rogue, also can fill professional or face, dealer's choice
Cannon: Wizard, also can be professional, so maybe have the rogue face
I'm running the fourth session of my first Pathfinder campaign in a few hours. The party has definitely found themselves in a few tight spots already, but they've pulled through. They have a bard, a wizard, a swashbuckler, a ranger, and a cleric.
I'm curious what your party of 3 might be, in a circumstance where due to the numbers the characters need to fill more roles, and specializing in a particular aspect comes at the cost in other gaps in the line-up.
I actually did spec out parties of 3 but cut them due to time. I'll go dig them up from the script to share though if you're interested!
@@RebelThenKing Absolutely, builds get interesting at 3 man parties as they all members have to be hybrids to some extent or another.
Rogue/Dex Ranger/Investigator feels essential to me in a 3 member party. Having one character that can be A-tier or better in melee AND ranged damage, plus lots of skills is just amazing.
Four thaumaturges best party comp 🚬
You misspelled kineticist
Currently in a game with myself as a Fire/Metal Kineticist as the face Tank / HP tank (metal carapace is so cool). I can deliver far ranged damage with weapon infusion to act as a bow or consistent melee damage with a reach elemental melee blast (EMB) / agile EMB. Took my archetype as battle medic since we were a bit sore for that so I can self heal out of combat and took battle medicine for in combat healing. It’s a lot of tankiness for LVL 2 with 18 ac + a regenerating (metal carapace) shield and 32 hp so I’m very surprised it works so well
Would like to point out a melee character with high mobility can also be a pretty good mid guard such as a monk or swashbuckler. Though I suppose you could classify them as a “roamer” more than anything else.
Brit here. You lost me at "American Football"...😂
Wood/Water Kineticist is definitely an S-tier healer alongside Cleric. Forensic Science Investigator and Chirurgeon are A+ though for sure
The group of all new players I joined ended up similar by mistake, though we kind of lack a cannon. Investigator w/ healing focus, Champion (dex based), Braggart Swashbuckler, Occult Witch, and Giant Instinct Barbarian. We haven't really homed in on team synergy yet though.
I wonder why you didn't include Tanking as a separate role like most people include. Do you fold that into melee and support? Also You only briefly cover ranged AOE damage in the ranged damage role, but that seems very different than single target ranged damage.
Am the druid player in the party. I feel famous.
So…no mention of thief rogue? Can deliver good damage bothe ranged and melee.
Minor spoiler alert - thief rogue is in my party of 3 builds that I ended up cutting from this video. I will probably add those builds as a comment or a follow-up video.
Thief isn't that fabulous on ranged damage, just A tier really (at best). They have a medium weapon die at best (with an accuracy penalty), no ability mod bonuses to damage, and probably the hardest racket to reliably get off-guard for ranged strikes. I'd suggest a scoundrel with pistol twirl or mastermind for much better ranged damage and still great melee damage. All Thief has going for it is A+ melee damage. Without getting to use weapons bigger than a D6 or D8 with 2 hands, they'll never be S or S+ tier in melee.
In our party we have an Orc Barbarian ( hammer) Swashbuckler ( right hand) rogue ( right hand ) hob goblin ranger ( canon) and my own character Gnome Bard who picks up multiple rolls as midguard, healer, diplomatic etc. Out of fight and in social scenarios the Bard is comfortably the face. In fights he finds himself juggling with too many roles and not enough resources. He is able to mete out some ranged area damage as a first strike option but once combat is underway he is supporting with buffs/debuffs and healings and is well stretched at doing that. He has picked up healing items to assist with out of mele battle damage recovery. Oh and he is a beastmaster as well having a riding drake to offer some personal protection and an elephant to assist in carrying party treasure in a scenario where extra dimensional spaces have been disabled. ( Should have seen the GM's face when he called in the elephant to move all the stash instead of having to make hard decisions as to which to leave and which to carry 😂
As you know... Bards rule but even moreso with some potent animal companions.
Ye asked for thief, and thief ye shall receive: th-cam.com/video/i7_yknmYIUQ/w-d-xo.html
These are 4 player groups before the remaster:
1) Champion, Ranger, Investigator, Bard
2) Fighter, Barbarian, Gunslinger, Rogue
what about a party of 3?
I feel like the Right Hand should be called the Anvil xD
I've seen that term mentioned a few times since releasing this video and I agree, it's a better term. Long live the anvil!
Why not a Rogue Thief as a hammer? With the +4 static, +7 hit and sneak it fulfills all the requirements you had in your other video for an S tier dmg character.
It slightly misses the requirements since sneak isn't automatic. You might go entire encounters without landing any sneak attack damage (for example, if you can't flank and fail at feinting). But it's definitely a good build, which is why it's included in my video from today! th-cam.com/video/i7_yknmYIUQ/w-d-xo.html
What about a party of 3 ?!?! =O
I prefer Pf2e over D&D, but the latter does 3 man parties easier.
Exect encounter balancing, but that's another issue! (??) =Þ
I kind of disagree with melee and ranged. I would put both of them under the striker role. Their objective is to bring ennemy hp to 0 as fast as possible. Melee and ranged are just two different tactics you can use to do this with their pros and cons,although the party should always have backup ranged options.
And instead of melee i would put grappler/tank. The are generally very hard to kill martials who try to debuff ennemy offense and force them to focus on them. Grappler because the best way to do that is to invest in athletics and feats to grapple.
They are important because bosses are extremly dangerous in pathfinder. Someone have to hold the front line to prevent it from oneshotting the wizard.
.
How is alchemist not a S-tier support class? All it does is buff and debuff characters.
Gah. The football metaphor is so tortured and clumsy…
Doesn't feel ultimate.
More like basic guidelines.
Automatic switch to 1.5× speed just for talking about sports.
Which will result in lose of watch time.
I play in one game and Gm another.
The game I play in originally had only 3 players but has added one more recently:
Shield and claw fighter is our Hammer - the play likes to throw his shield a la Captain America so he can do some decent ranged damage (Str+4, Dex +2 to start - the gradual ability boost so Dex +3 at level 2)
Arcane Ancestors Bloodline Sorcerer - Cannon - does a lot of AOE and targeted damage
Precision ranger with animal companion and taking all skill feats to maximize Medicine - Cannon/Right Hand/Healer - I'm the party healer and bought the gloves of medicine/healing as first item purchase. With free archetype (using because fun and only 3 in party) took Beast Master so that companion can grow a little faster and provide consistent flank with the fighter
we have recently added a Thaumaturge - chaos monkey - mostly right hand/diplomat - mirror implement, some charisma skills but player is pretty much a chaos monkey and this is her first RPG experience so we are just letting her embrace her random impulses
The table I DM:
Melee precision ranger with druid archetype - front-line hammer
CHA based psychic - support/face
Empiric investigator - professional/cannon
Braggart swashbuckler - right-hand/support
Both groups have been reallly successful. The table I DM has some healing limitations but has been pretty successful and getting the enemies knocked down pretty fast. The Psychic has a limited amount of healing when she unleashes.