I traded my 16 Springfield for a 23 Springfield. My 16 had 65k miles on it. Indian gave me $9200 on trade with incentive. And I got the bike lowered from $22,500 to $18,500. Out the door 10k.
Used to work for a Harley dealer many years ago and although was not a big fan of the brand the "883" was the one I really liked, basic, bare bones and a lot of fun. They really need to get this bike back into the range even if euro 5+ compliant as am sure peeps would put up with the reduced power for the fun and experience of the bike...nuff said.
It’s not compliant in the US either. I would guess Harley Davidson determined its development cost for a new engine would price that bike to high for an entry level customer. The last production year in the US dealers were selling it for 13K which was ridiculous.
Making it a but under powered to be compliant wouldn't bother anybody since every body starts swapping parts almost as soon as they ride out of the dealer.
There's a reason why the used 883 and the Harley 48 fly out the door in my local dealership, they're perfect for the price and a hit with both new and experienced riders. They're highly customisable and simply fun machines. Harley absolutely needs the value bikes in their lineup.
They should have kept the old sportsters at the old price point and just given them a water jacket (for euro 5 reasons). I think the rev-max suffers from ‘its not a real Harley’, as it doesn’t look like one and has not naturally evolved from one. They tried this new motor nonsense before with the V-rod and that failed too.
Sportsters should have been updated with water-cooled, 4-valve heads to meet current emissions standards. Retooling required for Revolution Max Sportsters will take forever to recoup at current and declining sales numbers.
Vtwin is only an advantage with narrow angle and pushrods. Ohc makes the engine too tall. And, it requires two separate cam drives. Narrow V angle allows use of single carb as both intake ports are close together. This is not as much benefit with FI. v twin has advantage over parallel twin as it has single crankpin. These cost and weight issues are less important for 800 lb touring bikes. But, they are critical for entry level bikes and off road. HD execs put the blinders on and went v twin no matter what. HD did well up to recently due to guys who were indoctrinated by biker movies in the 1960s. They have aged out. The current group of 50+ riders grew up in the 1970s riding dirt bikes. Thus the current ADV boom. That being said, I ve seen a lot of young guys on HD (Vancouver). A house, wife and kids are a pipe dream in today's world. So, a 30 yro buys a 100k 4x4, or HD or other toy as their big ticket item.
HD is on the way out. I got a new 24 roadglide, 6 months old put 28000 km on it, tft screen had to get replaced, front brake rotors and rear one warped. New front ones are starting to get warped after 13.000km again. My rear wheel bearings failed. This is my fifth and last harley. Trading it off this winter. Harley won't replace my rear wheel bearing under warranty. I talked to harley canada and they denied warranty too. So I told them the just lost a customer over a 75 dollar bearing kit and a hr labor. They are a huge joke. So I'll get a bmw or goldwing over the winter here.
You’d be better off replacing the crap with quality after market and enjoy the bike you wanted when you bought it . That’s what I did , worked for me .
I bought 3 used HD touring in 3 yrs. Police 2016, Ultra 2021 and now a RKS 2023. All had wobbly front brakes after the test ride. They put nw rotors on all. One had crapy brakes after 5000km again. I get new ones aswell on warranty!!! Holland
Hardley-Davidson is competing with itself and losing. Basic motoring was once their strength. Production was maxed out at a much lower level, high prices were commanded, customers would resell after a couple three years and make a profit. They ran great with a carburetor. There were very few recalls. Gone are the days when a buyer could keep his bike for life if he chose to. When AMF ran the business, and when the shareholders took it back, it wasn't the profit-driven, dollar-chasing fiasco that it is now. Since 2000 the products have become disposable fashion statements for the wealthy. The junkyards will be full of today's machines as the parts become discontinued. F Jochen.
Rode Harleys for 40 years. Decided to move to a 2021 GoldWing DCT in 2021. Very unlikely I will ever go back to Harley unless I pick up something older as a 2nd bike for short 30-50 mile back-roading to relive the visceral feel of a V-Twin. As far as the anti-auto crowd, I haven’t owned a standard car or truck since a new ‘87 GMC 3/4 ton truck. Porsche doesn’t even sell a stick anymore except for a very high end road and track model. DCT’s provide the absolute best of both shifting approaches. If you want to manually shift, the Wing has finger shifters on the left side bar, which are there for almost instantaneous manual overriding of the automatic mode and also able to be chosen as a strict manual mode. And beyond the quality of the riding, I just got so fed up with dealing with Harley dealers and their maintenance crews. Almost all of them have a hard time keeping mechanics who actually know what they are doing, leaving most of us just so frustrated with additional repairs created from the original repair done wrong. And then the countless sales people trying to sell you a new ride, even if you are still riding last year’s model when they themselves either don’t even ride or own a 10-15 year old sportster. I could go on and on. And I never was a culture rider so hanging from 16” apes wearing a wife-beater in 60 degree temps just was never my idea of motorcycling. Two wheels, a high powered motor, a great set of brakes and a suspension that will comfortably hold a tight corner are out there in many brands. And also in a V-Twin. No need to be tattooed HD or put up with their BS.
As an owner of both a 2015 Dyna street bob and a 2013 sportster, I’d say HD started going downhill when they went down the canbus route. A lot of home mechanics and independent garages, lost the ability to work on HDs as they didn’t have the software to do all the diagnostics. HD dealers wanted to tie owners to high price dealer servicing, and now a lot of dealerships have gone bust, leaving owners without maintenance back up. I’ve also heard horror stories of dealerships refusing to work on older models. My canbus Dyna has had endless electrical and sensor issues, while the relatively simple sportster is delightfully simple. All HD ads show Ultra Glides riding through the wilderness. When in reality they should show a guy, at the side of the road, trying to find a phone signal, so he can google the latest fault code that’s just flashed up on his overly complicated HD 😂
Man. I don't know about that. I serve Touring riders on I-90 going to and from Sturgis and points West. They have a very significant on-board diagnostic capability, They have very good harnesses and routing. They basically tell you where to start by reading the speedo readout. I ride FXR, old FLH, 4 speed XL, you name it. But I'm not scared of the technology and don't approach any given issue with the attitude that I can't fix it.I can fix it. The only bike I had all summer I didn't "fix" was an 05 Ultra that the customer had butchered the harness. It had bad repairs to the MAP sensor wiring. all man-caused. Then, we found the ECM was also failing. But that's one bike out of a couple hundred. I take bikes the other local shops can't fix. It's my best free advertising. Anyone can stick on some LED's or butcher up some Apehangers. But there are still guys who just fix bikes. The other point I'd make is that it's not as-if H-D had a choice in whether to go to CanBus, or not. That stuff is Federally mandated. My generator has DTC readouts, these days.
@ I didn’t realise the canbus was a legal requirement in the States. In UK we obviously have different legal stuff. Also, from what I see with my fellow bikers on TH-cam, HD are the primary choice of ride in US. While in UK the Japanese bikes are much more popular. Therefore a lot of independent garages won’t touch modern HD as they don’t have the latest software. I know my go to HD mechanic has to pay a yearly fee for HD software but he only does HD so it’s worth it. But for the other garages, who do all makes, it’s not worth paying for HD software if they only work on a couple of HDs per year
@@bikeroffthebeatentrack You can always at least retrieve current and historic trouble codes and clear historic codes. Without any external hardware or software. I admit I'm not current on H-D product. The only time I see new ones is in the summer when the dealer is booked up. But I look at it as paid training. When the dealer is two days out from just doing a diagnosis, the customer is willing to pay for the time, even if it takes longer than it would once the dealer gets to it. Vacation time is valuable to most people.
I took my msf class on a Harley, and they did their best to try and sell me on one, but I passed. In the end I bought one of the new Moto Guzzi V7 850's and never looked back. It's been a flawless machine for 24,000 miles. Putting powerful overhead cam engines into their existing models instead of just building a proper sport bike and leaving the older bikes the way they were was a mistake. The result is huge, insanely overpriced cruisers that don't even sound like real Harleys anymore. No thanks.
Nicely done and stated. I don't see Harley changing direction as long as the current board is in place. All they see is the high margins with a high price. High margins/price can be doable, provided you are good with doing less volume. My local Harley dealers are too large to be sustained by low volume sales. Using Rolls Royce or Ferrari as a comparison, the local Rolls Royce or Ferrari dealer is significantly smaller in just about any dimension than my local Harley dealer. We also have a single RR (as well as Ferrari) dealer within 300 miles. We have 8 large HD dealers in that same space.
Using your example. When you walk in the RR or Ferrari dealer do you see hats , helmets , pants, shirts, jackets Etc... for sale. HD now makes more money from apparel sales, servicing motorcycles, motorcycle parts and financing than they do motorcycle sales
@@DirkDiggler-p5q at the Ferrari dealership, yes. Lots of high margin shirts, hats, jackets, etc. I was surprised at how many of their cars are leased here in the states. the RR dealer, not so much.
I think this is a good point. My local dealer is the highest volume dealer in the World and it would not survive a day on sales, service, financing and motorclothes. They make their money off the Sturgis Rally. When people can't afford to come to Sturgis anymore, and I think it's near that point, they are in deep trouble. That, combined with it not being locally-owned, not being engrained in the community etc, the place could look like just another abandoned big Box store.
Their apparel, parts, and bikes have gone to crap. The quality isn't there anymore. The MoCo is producing stuff for the young people but trying to shove it down the throats of the HD faithful. I think you hit the nail on the head and seen this for a long time as I did
The barriers to entry to motorcycling are high. I'm in South Australia where it now costs 1800 dollars to do your licence training. On top of that add the minimum clothing of a jacket, helmet, gloves, jeans and boots. That's at least 2500 dollars before looking at a bike. Then there are family and friends, who discourage motorcycling. Young people are not as adventurous or they want to do other things. The industry as a whole needs to be lowering these barriers. If a brand is so exclusive, they will end up reducing their availability to potential customers.
HD has brought this on themselves. They had some great but expensive bikes starting with the move to the evo engines. The yuppies bought them alongside those with disposable income . These were the HD boom years. They are now a company rapidly running out of time without a major rethink of their business model. The demographics and showrooms highlight an ageing customer base, over supply and a shrinking market.
Not just mismanagement, although that is present, as you point out in this video. What I believe also hurts not just Harley Davidson but many other brands is the transfer of wealth that has been occurring, at least in the U.S. Wages have not kept pace with prices, prices have soared due to greedy corporations exploiting inflation, and pensions have gone away. When you drain the middle class your customer base becomes a much smaller group. Add to this Harley's main customer base is aging out and they are resistant to change including those imposed by environmental laws. Its a tough spot to be in.
HD can be fixed: 1) stay out of wokeness 2) lower prices by 10%. They smoke anyone else in their class at that price point. 3) scrap Nightster, sportster s, live wire, and softail standard, 4) add in the the real sportster, Bronx and a springer deluxe.
Nope! Same problem of trying to sell to a dying market, literally. RE sell before they are even unboxed, they are the number one bike builder in the world. How? They sell bikes people can afford that are simple, and easy to own. The young is the future of motorcycles, if you don't attract them when they are young, you are lost to them when they are old. And speaking of old at 70 I dropped from a 900 pound motorcycle to a RE Hunter at 400 pounds. I couldn't be happier, instead of spending 30 grand on a trike because of health I dropped to a fun, easy affordable motorcycle.
Smoke everything else ? You’ve got to be joking, 💩 suspension, poor performance, poorly balanced chassis, Harley ha ve improved but are still way way behind their competitors, the only thing premium about Harley is their price & unfortunately that’s no longer enough
@ clearly you don’t ride a Harley. Yes, in their class it won’t even be close. Their parts, paint and fit and finish is already better. Price is the only issue.
@@JA-zh5xi overall mechanical engineering & performance is their biggest weakness link, so far behind any modern competition it’s silly, paint quality is the only area where they excel , that & aftermarket which they really need because out of the factory they are sadly lacking
Very good insights, thanks. My $.02 is that Harley made a big mistake discontinuing the Sportster. The new one is unappealing. The should have made incremental improvements to the old model and kept offering it as a entry/upgrade point for younger folks after value for money motorycles.
Agree mate, I love my Harley dealership in Perth Australia, I have dealt with Matt the dealer principle for 16 years, I have brought 7 new HD from him but my two year old FXDLS will be the last, $68,000 dollars for CVO standard without stage one, I paid $35000 for my bike and it has stage one plus seat and risers 30,000ks in two years now worth $25000, I have had bikes all my life and all manufacturers, Harleys are the most overrated bikes made, it’s all about the lifestyle but that ticket has gone now, I can buy a BMW with everything on for a lot less, or even the Indian is a better option 👊
From Kalgoorlie here, l dealt with Frasers for years and they were excellent in every way. The moco has done absolutely nothing to attract younger or new riders for over 30 years, there's no shortage of younger or new riders getting into bikes but none of them are buying Harleys.
Harley nailed the new heavyweight cruisers. The PanAmerica was a dismal quality launch and once they fixed it, it was too late and they were already made obsolete by BMW, Ducati and fast rising KTM. They need a midsize PanAmerica and total revamp of their midsize cruiser portfolio that is more competitive with Indian's updated Scout lineup.
Thank you for that. Here in Australia we can buy a 350 single cyl HD and a 500 single cyl HD. Granted, they are not made in the US, but I suspect that's not a deal breaker for those of us who see HD as a global company, with global markets in mind, rather than a US company. When HD sold the 500cc and 750cc V twins up until recently, they were big sellers here, and therefore probably a good entry point into the HD brand.
i have a 10 yr old Yamaha 3 cyl (fz09) with 50k miles on it, paid 7k for it new. and just bought a 2024 Mt10sp for 16k. literally the pinnacle of motorcycle technology and reliability. HD priced themselves out of the market 20 years ago. anyone who gets on a crossplane 4 and gets to hear it @ 11k rpm, will never look back. in city mode its a Cadillac, in A mode its a terrifying beast.. its like getting 3 bikes in 1. A touring bike, an aggressive street bike, or a track destroyer. The boomers were the only reason HD did what it did, they got way to complacent, and now market forces are going to crush it. makes me sad too, my dad (RIP) loved HD and rode them until he couldn't., i want them to succeed, even though i know better and will never buy one.
I know HD is messed up across the board, but for many reasons, my '23 LRS 117 is the bike I want to swing a leg over. Just bought a red '24 GSXS1000GT plus and as excellent as it is, Id rather rumble with the big turd.
Indian took the same percentage hit in sales this past quarter as HD. Triumph will prevail as the winner. They have a perfect balance between entry level and high end. They have great build quality, models people want and a broad appealing lineup.
They have been trying to shoot themselves in their own foot for years. In my opinion, H-D's problems include.. Over price and over optioned models. Sportster. Just a cool, simple basic bike that was FUN to ride! Now it's gone. Aggravated themed dealer network with sales staff swarming you. The 'high end' push will go against the core customers who supported them for decades. Don't forget where you came from.
DEI was just the cherry. Dealer experience, price add ons not listed on the price tag. Price in general and an obtuse attitude to their most loyal customers. I’m suspicious that it’s because we are aging out? Nevertheless there must be a way to run the company, adding new younger generations without alienating current customers. That won’t be accomplished by the current POS CEO. Unless and until he is sh**canned, my money will be closed to Harley!
Unfortunately you are spot on , I’ve test ridden the nightster etc and for the money they are awful, Enfield make a cool 650 that Harley should have made maybe with a slightly bigger engine, that people could afford.
Agree completely. I've thought this for many years. You are correct about Triumph they have reacted to the market swing perfectly. Royal Enfield really kicked this trend off with the Twins which I purchased the very first time I saw it at the dealer. Love it! Where I live even Harley's that are 10 years old with some issues are expensive, I will say prices on the used are coming down but that is because the economy has shifted and people are being more protective. Good one sir.
just think of what Harley did to the motorcycling public in the United States back in 1984 for those who don’t know at the time , The Japanese were introducing new models faster than the motorcycle magazines could do reviews on them, modern suspension, modern ignition systems that didn’t have just a fixed timing, they came out with transistor and capacitor, discharge ignition, then they started coming out with water cooling for big street bikes, tubeless shaft drive, four valves per cylinder, water cooling, which is 4000 times more efficient than air cooling which means you can have higher compression engines when you can control the heat. That was around the time the Japanese motorcycles were so reliable they were able to eliminate Kickstarter’s, three cylinder, in-line 4s. V4s , Turbo charging.. six cylinders. The advancements in motorcycle engineering and design what is the most productive time in motorcycling history. The public was not interested in AMF Harley Davidson’s. It was the same old, same old… so Harley hired a Wall Street insider CEO named von bealls.. very smart businessman. He went right to the top and had Ronald Reagan put a 45% tariff on all imported motorcycles, Italian, German, English, and especially Japanese motorcycles. . The claim was that the Japanese were trying to drive Harley out of business by dumping motorcycles here below cost. So Harley needed help to save the 600 American jobs at the Harley Davidson factory.. they were waving the American flag, and calling on President Ronald Reagan to be patriotic and apply a 45% tariff to imported motorcycles.. that’s what he did Imagine a Honda automobile today that sells for $29,995, jumping to $47,500 just because the president says so. Let’s not forget the additional tax on the higher selling price and the increased payments and the increase in your auto insurance, to cover a larger loss for the insurance company because of the sticker price. well, that’s what happened to all imported motorcycles. A typical 750 price was $2995. You could get them for Les but that was the sticker price from the big four from Japan. Well that price went to $4750 in the blink of an eye when the tariff was applied. The result was it saved the 600 Harley Davidson workers jobs, which were probably not going to be lost anyway Within the first two years of that tariff, 1100 Japanese motorcycle dealerships, went out of business forever. There were no more inexpensive motorcycles. Those 1100 motorcycle shops that went out of business so quickly, had seven. Employees on average. That’s more than 7000 American jobs that were lost since were talking about saving American jobs. That was just in the first two years. show rooms were deserted in Japanese motorcycle and the European motorcycle dealerships. They were deserted. I know because I sold motorcycles part time in those days. there was one year in particular that sales were so good for Yamaha. They had a motorcycle that was very popular in the United States, the XS 650 twin. In one calendar year they sold 120,000 of those 650s. They were in expensive and they were 100,000 mile machines. .. search the tariff of 1984/85, Yamaha has not sold 120,000 motorcycles of all sizes combined in a single year .. so what does that have to do with Harley Davidson sales today? in the 40 years since the tariff , The price of motorcycles went up for the tariff years, but they never came back down after the tariff.. Young men we’re not buying motorcycles, and when they got older and got married, they weren’t buying mini bikes and little dirt bikes for their kids. So their kids grew up, not becoming motorcyclists that would eventually graduate up to larger motorcycles and Harleys. so we’ve had 40 years, that’s for generations of motorcyclists that never got started in motorcycling due to the price of motorcycles that started with the tariff of 1984.. so Harley can cry me a River, because they have no one to blame for the lack of interested buyers than themselves. They started this elimination of future generations of motorcyclist 40 years ago. there were 22 Japanese dealerships within an hour of my home before the tariff. Today, here in 2024, there are only three Japanese dealerships that have survived this long, and that’s because they are family owned and they’ve had the buildings paid for since before the tariff. I worked at several different shops, first, as a mechanic at three different shops, and I sold motorcycles during the busy season here in Pennsylvania for 17 years at several different shops before, and I tried to sell motorcycles after the tariff, but it was not worth it. Before the tariff, there was one Saturday I sold seven bikes, in six hours. There was onetwo week pay period that I had 17 motorcycles go out the door. It was a great second part-time gig for me. February through May. After June 1, anybody that was going to buy a motorcycle, already had it by then… so I would take the summer off until the following February and I would work three evenings and Saturday making more money selling motorcycles than I did at my real job.. two of the dealerships I worked for declared bankruptcy, one of the owners lost his home another dealership that was way out on a limb, went to prison, trying to make up his losses by transporting suitcases, full of cocaine to stay in business. What’s the way DeLorean ended up going to prison.. I wasn’t working for that dealership at the time, I never even spoke to the new owner that went to prison, but I heard from the guys I used to work with there what happened .. at the same time, since the United States was possibly the biggest market for the big four in Japan, they cut way back on development of new models, and we have never seen that exponential jump in technology, or the like of that again.. Meanwhile, Harley is making watt, the same basic design motorcycle Steve been making for decade after decade. I have had 111 motorcycles so far. I have friends that have had far more motorcycles than I have had. It gets in your blood, you become a lifelong motorcyclist. A lot of the motorcyclists that I know have multiple motorcycles. When I retired, I had eight, a Goldwing, suzuki, V Strom, 1000, a moto guzzi Norge.. and my commuter bike, a Honda pacific coast, which I commuted on for 24 years without so much as a bulb burning out.. The elimination of affordable motorcycles, in 1984 put an end to motorcyclists like me, and many many of my friends, because they were too expensive for people to get started in motorcycling. It’s not just the price of the bike, it’s the gear you have to buy how much jackets, boots gloves, it’s the insurance you have to buy, it’s the payments… it adds up fast.. There are Harleys out there on the showroom floors… some of the brand new Harley Davidsons actually cost more than some of the brand new Cadillacs you can buy today.. and they cant understand why their sales are tanking.. something else that is not going to boost their sales is the announcement of opening another Harley Davidson manufacturing plant in Thailand,, to join the plants they have in Brazil and India now.. ironically, this whole catastrophe of eliminating motorcyclists from ever getting started in the hobby of motorcycling, started under the pretense of saving 600 American jobs at the Harley factory in the United States. Now they are about to wave the flag of Thailand, Brazil, India, and the United States on the Harley Davidson dealership polls.. unbelievable that this all started because they wanted to save 600 American jobs at the Harley factory .. but that was yesterday, and yesterdays gone….
You are absolutely correct, and it is the main reason I hold such contempt for H-D. They have never been able to compete and win on a level playing field, hopefully their "chickens" are finally coming home to roost.
@Jodyrides Exactly. This is a perfect example of how tariffs exist purely to protect the interests of corporations and end up coming out of the pockets of consumers. You see it now happening with Chinese EVs. The public should be outraged that cheap transportation is being kept out of reach for no good reason.
Really interesting. I want to buy a new HD, I have the funds ready to go…but I just cannot bring myself to buy it with a sticker saying..”made in Thailand”
You're incorrect, Harley didn't put tariffs on all Japanese motorcycles, as you've claimed, it was on motorcycles above 700cc. Going back to that time there were few bikes over to 1000cc point, 750 and above was mostly just the touring market with a handful of sport bikes in that class.
Everything you said was spot on. I owned a couple of brand new Yamaha XS650's in the day. One normal, the other a black special. Probably the best motorcycles I've owned, and I've owned heaps. I now have a 2010 Triumph Thruxton 900. I love this bike as it sounds and feels the same as what my old XS650's were to ride. Those were the days.
A motorcycle any brand are on the decline. Its a luxury item. With the world economy in a slump there is the answer. But if you want it you'll find a way.. especially Harley a luxury brand..
Harley tried to tell me that the MSRP was around $30,000 on a Road Glide Standard. When told them another dealership had MSRP about $27,000. Then they tried to tell me all what was involved in the cost of the Harley, I told them I would pass.
In the UK the bikers are getting older, everyone is suffering but HD is a niche brand and not adapted as you said. Youngsters are being priced out of biking by ridiculous insurance premiums because the police are not allowed to deal with the scumbags as is needed. I visit Thailand and Cambodia often and Honda waves and Yamaha scoopys are like flies, those manufacturers saw an opening as you said and exploited it so yes you and many here are correct, stop over complicating Harleys and bring back good value old style Sportsters and Dynas perhaps
I have a Nightster S, excellent motorcycle, yes it costs more than the same size bike of another brand BUT it's actually good value when you look at all of the tech , innovation and engineering. On top of all of that , I have many dealers to rely on if or when I need/ want parts . I still like Harley, they are my go to , that's all there is to it.
Another one. 😂 What is it about H-D that attracts all this criticism? Are they over-priced? Yup. Low on tech? Yup. Sales are soft across the market. Do your homework.
I don't see the issue. You can have a perfectly good Street Glide for $26k US or a GS1300 for $29k w/o a radio, GPS, or saddlebags. Looked at the Indian Street Glide equivalent and it was also sporting a pennies under $30k price tag. Not sure what the plastic Gold Wings are going for, but I'd guess near $30k too. The idea of building budget bikes doesn't work unless you're selling products made in a low wage country. Ain't no way in Hell that HD could be competitive w/ anyone on American salaries.
A fully loaded Gold Wings are $29k out the door, none of that Harley tax bs that adds at least another $4k. Then the Gold Wing comes stock with heated grips and seat, more powerful engine, much cheaper to run (regular gas v premium) and finally way more reliable...btw I ride a 2019 HD RGS with 70k miles that had to have a engine rebuild at 40k and transmission rebuild at 58k, thank god for extended warranty, talking about warranty, a Gold Wing warranty is 3 years not 2 AND extended 5 year warranty STARTS when the previous 3 year factory one expires, not overlap like the HD one. My next bike will be a Gold Wing!
The dealers by me won't deal. They want full list prices for new unsold units 2 years old. And on top of that, they installed aftermarket bling, not OEM parts, and want even more due to the markups. After multiple trips to different dealers in other states, and finding the same things, I gave up. I actually bought a brand new Cadillac for less than a Harley Davidson trike.
I've just bought a RE Himalayan. Mods. Decat pipe opened the air box and a fuelx. It goes like stink and way less than 10k. Everything I'll ever need in my market(:-)
The dealerships are just as much to blame for declining sales, low moral, pre-judging people, inflated prices, price gouging, non transparent pricing, high interest rates, difficult to negotiate. In 2017 I bought a brand new Dyna, I felt like part of a family celebration at the moment of signing, great experience, today you walk in and they look at you like you're an alien walking through the doors, like wtf are you doing here!
You're spot-on, Alf. Harley-Davidson corporate pulled three boners lately, which is going to cook their goose. 1) all their woke bulll 💩 2) shipping American jobs overseas (Rev Max, Asia) 3) refusal to match customer needs|wants in terms of value, performance, and price. They're done in the U.S. market, it's just a matter of time. HD's numbers are going to go South like a duck in Winter. 🦆 marcus
I've said it before I'll say it again hate the company love the bike I have an 89 Harley and I'm not getting rid of it not a fan of the look of the new bikes.
I have a 2010 Road King Classic that has 55000 miles. A few upgrades and I keep it clean. Lots of looks and compliments every time I’m out! Roars when I want but purrs mile after mile! Never selling it! Oh, and a great dealer in Fremont NE.
I considered getting a low rider ST, ended up trading my scout Rogue 22 for a Springfield DH 23. Even though I really liked the LRST I just found that it wasn’t worth it for its price point. It was more expensive that the 23 Springfield mind you.
Here in Europe there is no need for buying a new Harley. There are thousands and thousands of 2hand bikes for sale. All with low miles and in perfect shape. Once owned by yuppies (Fatboys only) and retired dentist (Roadkings etc) who never really liked to ride. For guys like me who always thought HDs were too expensive (they are) but really wanted to ride one, now is the right time. Do we need dealers? No, we’re not gonna buy a new one. Those 2hands are almost new. Personally I’m looking for a ‘13 or ‘14 Street Bob. With only a few thousand km on the clock you see them for 1/3 of the new price.
The main problem is the tennis shoe CEO. They need to get someone in there with a lifelong passion for big motorcycles. And they need to get back to the basics. My '92 FXRS is way more fun to ride, has real instruments, and runs cooler than my '22 FLHCS. And way easier, WAY easier to work on!
The only thing Harley-Davidson has done is learned how to take advantage of their loyal customers I have a 24 Road Glide for 7 months and it is not my favorite bike they're all zip ties and plastic
As both a Harley owner and can of the brand I'd like to believe that the senior management at H-D along with the board will see the light and introduce a sub 10K Sportster 900/1200 , if the Japanese and European manufactures can all introduce sub 10K entry level bikes then surely Harley can ?
Skullduggery in some dealerships doesn't help either,plus it gives HD a bad name.The company should provide oversight to see that un-ethical business practices are routed out,and franchises revoked in extreme cases.The Mo-co should emphasize transparency in the buying process,and give realistic offers on trade ins.If they do that,sales will definitely increase.
100%. You, me and Blind Freddie could see the decline coming. The thing is, to HD corporate, sales volume is less relevant as long as there are profit increases from the previous year. As long as HD can ride out the current difficult cost of living crisis and they can continue to sell at enough volume levels at higher prices that the market can withstand that produce results which increase in annual profit, then they will continue with their strategy. HD is not interested in selling low margin Scramblers to farmers and commuters or small adventure bikes to keen enthusiasts across the entire spectrum at reasonable market prices, they are interested in selling shiny expensive higher margin bikes to the million dollar bogan type customer and middle class folk.
Motorcycles in the US have turned into a discretionary purchase as a fun vehicle and not primary transportation. You’re right they have to develop a lower priced bike. A $30K bike is a big deal to buy. They also have created another problem because the core US customer is not going to buy a Harley-Davidson assembled in Thailand.
They should fix their drive line issues the compensator problem is alarming 36,000 kms on a $35,000 bike and the compensator is toast, a couple of grand to fix with no guarantee it will be fix other issues the rubber used on the pegs,grips and the licence plate light on the Australia brake out (you cannot replace the globes)the only options it to replace the whole unit this will be my last Harley I have owned a 1994 low rider and a 2007 softail custom but the break out is the worded looks good but turned out to be a real pain
Here in Canada the Harley prices are pretty much on point with Indian, Honda etc. A new Honda or Yamaha top of the line sport bike here in Canada is over $30000. All brands are over priced here.
I'm 51 and my current bike is a '23 Hayabusa. But in my mid 20's I was REALLY wanting a Harley. Couldn't afford one then, and certainly wouldn't buy one today because the value is not there.
You’re harping on price , it’s NOT price. It’s not enough new riders getting into the market. Harley-Davidson is a premium brand like a BMW or Porsche.
Walked into my local HD shop a few months ago and the place was packed with brand new baggers. Average price was beyond 30 grand. My immediate thought was who, in these financial times, are they going to sell them to. I discovered that, no matter how poor a financial risk someone is, harley davidson financial will find a way to move a motorcycle. Very sad.
I’d love to see the payment plan when they add the total interest on top of that. Bike probably costs $45k all in, then after 8 years of the lease you owe $35k on a bike worth $28k so you offer it for sale above the new price and refinance it until the end of time
Harley is a nich market. There has always been old people with money that want to be young again and pretend to be a bad boy. But Harley has played the bad boy market too long and their people are dropping off like flies. There's a bigger market out there and the Japanese have captured it. Royal Enfield is getting into that market too. Then there's the adventure bike market starting to grow. In fact the adventure bike market is the most exciting of them all. It covers all the bases of trail riding and road riding. It's practical and fun.
@@Mike-jv8bv I would like to see Harley bring out the classic 45 inch WW2 model. Put a soft tail on it but keep the overall classic look but keep it light weight as possible. Harley desperately needs a smaller bike.
I’ve owned four Goldwings, Big touring Harley’s, some of the fastest stock bikes on the planet like the Honda Blackbird and CBR1000RR etc….and many more but now I am looking to buy a Royal Enfield Himalayan 452 tubeless when they arrive here in Texas. For under $8,000 cash I can have a fun cheap bike. I’m done paying $30,000 for bikes and the ridiculous damn shop labor costs. I am buying a simple light cheap dependable bike I can work myself. RE is appealing because it’s not a $30,000 plus motorcycle. The RE 452 for me fits where I am at now. I am done too with flying 185 MPH down roads far away from cities and people too. I’m slowing down.
Blokes like me who've done their back and knee aren't looking for a massively heavy bike. The Sportster would be perfect....inste6 HD have viven this market to Indian. Did HD do customer testing on the nighster because its a non seller.
Back, way back in the early days people looked at price verses value and other things but the most important was the pocket book. Harley has rung out the hype towel buyers aren't getting laid or getting noticed as they envisioned. Most people make a bad face when harleys go by as Bob Dylan once sang, the times they are a changin.
Anyone remember the early 1980ies? Before the Evo came out, Harley Davidson was in rough shape, about to go under. Even journalists in mc magazine wrote: "Let them die, Harleys are junk". Maybe today, Harley are at a similar low point?
I would argue that Royal Enfield have been the canary in the coal mine for other manufacturers in recent years. For my mind, if Royal Enfield aren't the "trend setters", they've certainly picked the changing trends in the market better than anyone else. Austerity chic is a fashion that RE have been able to capitalise on, well. Zeitz and the board (bored!) at Harley Davidson have simply been unable to adapt to changing conditions. Their focus on "exclusivity" and a "premium" experience might have been well founded five or six years ago but that ship has well and truly sailed. Now, HD find itself competing with low mileage examples on the used market. Not good.
Harley Davidson makes 800 pound bikes with low-power, high-torque air-cooled V-twin motors, and they charge top dollar for them. That's who and what they are, and who and what they have always been. They've tried to break out of that paradigm many times in the past, but they keep coming back to it, because that's the only thing that they can make work for them. If you're not into paying top dollar for an 800 pound bike with a low-power, high-torque air-cooled V-twin motor, then I don't see how you claim to be into Harleys. Yes, their market is shrinking, but so is the market for all the other motorcycle brands. The economy is tight, interest rates are high, and to most people, paying huge money for an expensive toy just isn't in the budget.
Never in my life have I paid more than 1/3 what a new HD costs for a new motorcycle. HD is recourses with their HD taxes on T-Shirts, Financing and Insurance ect. It's harder to find Indian Sales Stats, but they would be very telling compared to HD
"Where the market is going" The market isn't going anywhere until we start growing younger riders. Young folks couldn't give a shit for motorcycles. They might come up to you and tell you "nice bike", but they have no intention of ever owning/operating a bike. It's a sickness we have to cure PDQ or we will be seeing the end of motorcycling.
when the revolution max engine came out the brand lost its appeal to harleys core buyers. They have tried to build something to appeal to the younger riders but unfortunately the other manufacturers are decades ahead of them in looks and style..it's like they have employed the old designers from honda whose last project was the honda diversion
HD was having sales probs well before the DEI stuff. That was just the final nail in the coffin that people wanted to grab onto, to divert the actual blame. Boomer/genX customer base aging out, predatory pricing, cost of ownership, dodgy QC and reliability, constant product recalls, ripoff service centers, and the whole fake biker lifestyle thing they have been shoving for 50yrs are but a few others. Primarily though, it's been economics--younger gens just can't afford them. Same thing is happening abroad, with other brands. The interest is there, but has shifted to smaller cc bikes. Do your research. Look at stats for used bike sales and you'll have your answers.
I am one of those currently fortunate enough to be able to purchase a new H-D if I so choose. However, the economy and future financial certainty are such that I am 'saving' my expendable cash 'just-in-case'. Therefore I will not be spending on any new motorcycle, rather spending lesser amounts of cash on a nice holiday.
Absolutely nailed the situation, fully agree. All mainstream manufacturers are going to be caught on the hop by the rise in Chinese offering that are far from sub standard. Just look at CF Moto and Voge. They have cut their teeth making engines for KTM and BMW and now they offer damned good product at down to earth prices.
The bike can handle it, but the rider won't after more than 3 hours on it. Don't get me wrong, I love powerful Kawasaki sports bikes, but they're not a long distance cruiser.
Check out Smoaks vlog and all the trouble his new Pan Am is giving him with the fairing misaligned from the Factory . He's a certified motorcycle tech and is trying to fix it himself . I can only assume he doesn't trust the dealer to fix it . His isn't the only Pan Am with this problem .
They all have problems. For example, BMW 1300 GS has many more issues than the HD Pan Am. All vehicles are in trouble and declining. Dodge, Jaguar , and everyone of them are making the most stupid moves.
I don't believe they dropped the sportster because of the epa. The m8 passes. I think the sportster needed a 6 speed and the cost to do that would be prohibited. Same as the product as it to needed to be a 6 speed.
They haven’t adapted at the same time their core demographic is dying off or isn’t going to replace their current bikes. The current demographic certainly isn’t going to replace bikes that have annoying built in tech.
Niche bike brand in a niche market . on top of that inflation has slowed the market down . All markets are realigning from the high inflation since Covid ! Great video 👍👍👍
The HD demise starts with their hideous product, now throw cynical customer relations into the mix and you have the end of the road unless corrections are made.
HD's decline is not a difficult thing to understand; their bikes are over-priced, over rated shite, nobody wants them, they are no longer cool and haven't been for a generation. The brand is toxic, dominated by old, middle aged white men, a demographic that is only getting older and the younger biker, a rare thing indeed, is just not interested in the brand. Iv'e been a rider for 30+ years and have had many, many bikes from varying manufacturers and I can categorically state that I would not have an HD for free.
Dumb CEO. Motorbikes aren't puma shoes.
Puma shoes do not cost $30,000, so you're right.
Bastard chomo German
Dump that clown
You got him in tears now
I traded my 16 Springfield for a 23 Springfield. My 16 had 65k miles on it. Indian gave me $9200 on trade with incentive. And I got the bike lowered from $22,500 to $18,500. Out the door 10k.
You're a rare exception.Good for you.👍
New for 2025, the Wall Street Glide.
It was stupid and arrogant to kill off the 883.
Used to work for a Harley dealer many years ago and although was not a big fan of the brand the "883" was the one I really liked, basic, bare bones and a lot of fun. They really need to get this bike back into the range even if euro 5+ compliant as am sure peeps would put up with the reduced power for the fun and experience of the bike...nuff said.
It’s not compliant in the US either. I would guess Harley Davidson determined its development cost for a new engine would price that bike to high for an entry level customer. The last production year in the US dealers were selling it for 13K which was ridiculous.
Making it a but under powered to be compliant wouldn't bother anybody since every body starts swapping parts almost as soon as they ride out of the dealer.
@@PrecisionDan Exactly, and make it near the right price (well they have been making the same thing for years) and they would get peeps back
There's a reason why the used 883 and the Harley 48 fly out the door in my local dealership, they're perfect for the price and a hit with both new and experienced riders. They're highly customisable and simply fun machines. Harley absolutely needs the value bikes in their lineup.
They should have kept the old sportsters at the old price point and just given them a water jacket (for euro 5 reasons). I think the rev-max suffers from ‘its not a real Harley’, as it doesn’t look like one and has not naturally evolved from one. They tried this new motor nonsense before with the V-rod and that failed too.
Sportsters should have been updated with water-cooled, 4-valve heads to meet current emissions standards. Retooling required for Revolution Max Sportsters will take forever to recoup at current and declining sales numbers.
I agree 100%
Or just ignored Europe altogether for the Sportster line.
Vtwin is only an advantage with narrow angle and pushrods. Ohc makes the engine too tall. And, it requires two separate cam drives.
Narrow V angle allows use of single carb as both intake ports are close together. This is not as much benefit with FI.
v twin has advantage over parallel twin as it has single crankpin.
These cost and weight issues are less important for 800 lb touring bikes. But, they are critical for entry level bikes and off road. HD execs put the blinders on and went v twin no matter what.
HD did well up to recently due to guys who were indoctrinated by biker movies in the 1960s. They have aged out. The current group of 50+ riders grew up in the 1970s riding dirt bikes. Thus the current ADV boom.
That being said, I ve seen a lot of young guys on HD (Vancouver). A house, wife and kids are a pipe dream in today's world. So, a 30 yro buys a 100k 4x4, or HD or other toy as their big ticket item.
The Chinese have produced a Sportster knock-off that meets Euro 5, And yet Harley can't?
I have 2 H-Ds that I bought used. I can't see paying full price for the new bikes as they are out of my range.
HD is on the way out. I got a new 24 roadglide, 6 months old put 28000 km on it, tft screen had to get replaced, front brake rotors and rear one warped. New front ones are starting to get warped after 13.000km again. My rear wheel bearings failed. This is my fifth and last harley. Trading it off this winter. Harley won't replace my rear wheel bearing under warranty. I talked to harley canada and they denied warranty too. So I told them the just lost a customer over a 75 dollar bearing kit and a hr labor. They are a huge joke. So I'll get a bmw or goldwing over the winter here.
You’d be better off replacing the crap with quality after market and enjoy the bike you wanted when you bought it . That’s what I did , worked for me .
I bought 3 used HD touring in 3 yrs. Police 2016, Ultra 2021 and now a RKS 2023. All had wobbly front brakes after the test ride. They put nw rotors on all. One had crapy brakes after 5000km again. I get new ones aswell on warranty!!! Holland
Have you tried Indian?
BMW ? ...Frying pan into the fire comes too mind !
Better snag that Goldwing. BMW is not it for reliability either.
I dont care if they go under ,i wouldnt lose any sleep over it
THEY NEED TO GET RID OF ALL THE TECHNOLOGY AND KEEP THE BIKES BASIC.
No.
Agree with you and I feel we should all go back to owning the 1907 Harley Davidson Strap Tank.
I agree tech has more or less ruined everthing these days
Unfortunately the EPA has saddled us with a bunch of BS, and we all stood around and watched them do it.
True. Too many electronic gimmicks on a new BMW GS give troubles too. Keep it simple. No driving modes, etc.
Hardley-Davidson is competing with itself and losing. Basic motoring was once their strength. Production was maxed out at a much lower level, high prices were commanded, customers would resell after a couple three years and make a profit. They ran great with a carburetor. There were very few recalls. Gone are the days when a buyer could keep his bike for life if he chose to. When AMF ran the business, and when the shareholders took it back, it wasn't the profit-driven, dollar-chasing fiasco that it is now. Since 2000 the products have become disposable fashion statements for the wealthy. The junkyards will be full of today's machines as the parts become discontinued. F Jochen.
Rode Harleys for 40 years. Decided to move to a 2021 GoldWing DCT in 2021. Very unlikely I will ever go back to Harley unless I pick up something older as a 2nd bike for short 30-50 mile back-roading to relive the visceral feel of a V-Twin.
As far as the anti-auto crowd, I haven’t owned a standard car or truck since a new ‘87 GMC 3/4 ton truck. Porsche doesn’t even sell a stick anymore except for a very high end road and track model. DCT’s provide the absolute best of both shifting approaches. If you want to manually shift, the Wing has finger shifters on the left side bar, which are there for almost instantaneous manual overriding of the automatic mode and also able to be chosen as a strict manual mode.
And beyond the quality of the riding, I just got so fed up with dealing with Harley dealers and their maintenance crews. Almost all of them have a hard time keeping mechanics who actually know what they are doing, leaving most of us just so frustrated with additional repairs created from the original repair done wrong. And then the countless sales people trying to sell you a new ride, even if you are still riding last year’s model when they themselves either don’t even ride or own a 10-15 year old sportster. I could go on and on. And I never was a culture rider so hanging from 16” apes wearing a wife-beater in 60 degree temps just was never my idea of motorcycling. Two wheels, a high powered motor, a great set of brakes and a suspension that will comfortably hold a tight corner are out there in many brands. And also in a V-Twin. No need to be tattooed HD or put up with their BS.
💥
As an owner of both a 2015 Dyna street bob and a 2013 sportster, I’d say HD started going downhill when they went down the canbus route. A lot of home mechanics and independent garages, lost the ability to work on HDs as they didn’t have the software to do all the diagnostics. HD dealers wanted to tie owners to high price dealer servicing, and now a lot of dealerships have gone bust, leaving owners without maintenance back up. I’ve also heard horror stories of dealerships refusing to work on older models. My canbus Dyna has had endless electrical and sensor issues, while the relatively simple sportster is delightfully simple. All HD ads show Ultra Glides riding through the wilderness. When in reality they should show a guy, at the side of the road, trying to find a phone signal, so he can google the latest fault code that’s just flashed up on his overly complicated HD 😂
And there sir you have hit the nail on the head, hugely expensive unreliable rubbish.
Man. I don't know about that. I serve Touring riders on I-90 going to and from Sturgis and points West. They have a very significant on-board diagnostic capability, They have very good harnesses and routing. They basically tell you where to start by reading the speedo readout. I ride FXR, old FLH, 4 speed XL, you name it. But I'm not scared of the technology and don't approach any given issue with the attitude that I can't fix it.I can fix it. The only bike I had all summer I didn't "fix" was an 05 Ultra that the customer had butchered the harness. It had bad repairs to the MAP sensor wiring. all man-caused. Then, we found the ECM was also failing. But that's one bike out of a couple hundred. I take bikes the other local shops can't fix. It's my best free advertising. Anyone can stick on some LED's or butcher up some Apehangers. But there are still guys who just fix bikes.
The other point I'd make is that it's not as-if H-D had a choice in whether to go to CanBus, or not. That stuff is Federally mandated. My generator has DTC readouts, these days.
@ I didn’t realise the canbus was a legal requirement in the States. In UK we obviously have different legal stuff. Also, from what I see with my fellow bikers on TH-cam, HD are the primary choice of ride in US. While in UK the Japanese bikes are much more popular. Therefore a lot of independent garages won’t touch modern HD as they don’t have the latest software. I know my go to HD mechanic has to pay a yearly fee for HD software but he only does HD so it’s worth it. But for the other garages, who do all makes, it’s not worth paying for HD software if they only work on a couple of HDs per year
@@bikeroffthebeatentrack You can always at least retrieve current and historic trouble codes and clear historic codes. Without any external hardware or software. I admit I'm not current on H-D product. The only time I see new ones is in the summer when the dealer is booked up. But I look at it as paid training. When the dealer is two days out from just doing a diagnosis, the customer is willing to pay for the time, even if it takes longer than it would once the dealer gets to it. Vacation time is valuable to most people.
I took my msf class on a Harley, and they did their best to try and sell me on one, but I passed. In the end I bought one of the new Moto Guzzi V7 850's and never looked back. It's been a flawless machine for 24,000 miles. Putting powerful overhead cam engines into their existing models instead of just building a proper sport bike and leaving the older bikes the way they were was a mistake. The result is huge, insanely overpriced cruisers that don't even sound like real Harleys anymore. No thanks.
I've heard that Moto Guzzi is playing with the idea of introducing a new 850 Le Man's to their line-up. If this is true I'll put my money down on one.
I’ve been saying this for YEARS!
Nicely done and stated. I don't see Harley changing direction as long as the current board is in place. All they see is the high margins with a high price. High margins/price can be doable, provided you are good with doing less volume. My local Harley dealers are too large to be sustained by low volume sales. Using Rolls Royce or Ferrari as a comparison, the local Rolls Royce or Ferrari dealer is significantly smaller in just about any dimension than my local Harley dealer. We also have a single RR (as well as Ferrari) dealer within 300 miles. We have 8 large HD dealers in that same space.
Using your example. When you walk in the RR or Ferrari dealer do you see hats , helmets , pants, shirts, jackets Etc... for sale. HD now makes more money from apparel sales, servicing motorcycles, motorcycle parts and financing than they do motorcycle sales
Sales are up ⬆️ 😂
@@DirkDiggler-p5q at the Ferrari dealership, yes. Lots of high margin shirts, hats, jackets, etc. I was surprised at how many of their cars are leased here in the states. the RR dealer, not so much.
They lost me due to woke DEI BS. Not going back.
I think this is a good point. My local dealer is the highest volume dealer in the World and it would not survive a day on sales, service, financing and motorclothes. They make their money off the Sturgis Rally. When people can't afford to come to Sturgis anymore, and I think it's near that point, they are in deep trouble. That, combined with it not being locally-owned, not being engrained in the community etc, the place could look like just another abandoned big Box store.
Their apparel, parts, and bikes have gone to crap. The quality isn't there anymore. The MoCo is producing stuff for the young people but trying to shove it down the throats of the HD faithful. I think you hit the nail on the head and seen this for a long time as I did
The barriers to entry to motorcycling are high. I'm in South Australia where it now costs 1800 dollars to do your licence training. On top of that add the minimum clothing of a jacket, helmet, gloves, jeans and boots. That's at least 2500 dollars before looking at a bike. Then there are family and friends, who discourage motorcycling. Young people are not as adventurous or they want to do other things. The industry as a whole needs to be lowering these barriers. If a brand is so exclusive, they will end up reducing their availability to potential customers.
HD has brought this on themselves. They had some great but expensive bikes starting with the move to the evo engines. The yuppies bought them alongside those with disposable income . These were the HD boom years. They are now a company rapidly running out of time without a major rethink of their business model. The demographics and showrooms highlight an ageing customer base, over supply and a shrinking market.
Not just mismanagement, although that is present, as you point out in this video. What I believe also hurts not just Harley Davidson but many other brands is the transfer of wealth that has been occurring, at least in the U.S. Wages have not kept pace with prices, prices have soared due to greedy corporations exploiting inflation, and pensions have gone away. When you drain the middle class your customer base becomes a much smaller group. Add to this Harley's main customer base is aging out and they are resistant to change including those imposed by environmental laws. Its a tough spot to be in.
HD can be fixed:
1) stay out of wokeness
2) lower prices by 10%. They smoke anyone else in their class at that price point.
3) scrap Nightster, sportster s, live wire, and softail standard,
4) add in the the real sportster, Bronx and a springer deluxe.
Nope! Same problem of trying to sell to a dying market, literally. RE sell before they are even unboxed, they are the number one bike builder in the world. How? They sell bikes people can afford that are simple, and easy to own. The young is the future of motorcycles, if you don't attract them when they are young, you are lost to them when they are old. And speaking of old at 70 I dropped from a 900 pound motorcycle to a RE Hunter at 400 pounds. I couldn't be happier, instead of spending 30 grand on a trike because of health I dropped to a fun, easy affordable motorcycle.
How about stop being a racist? There's not enough white Americans to bankroll HD
Smoke everything else ? You’ve got to be joking, 💩 suspension, poor performance, poorly balanced chassis, Harley ha ve improved but are still way way behind their competitors, the only thing premium about Harley is their price & unfortunately that’s no longer enough
@ clearly you don’t ride a Harley. Yes, in their class it won’t even be close. Their parts, paint and fit and finish is already better. Price is the only issue.
@@JA-zh5xi overall mechanical engineering & performance is their biggest weakness link, so far behind any modern competition it’s silly, paint quality is the only area where they excel , that & aftermarket which they really need because out of the factory they are sadly lacking
Very good insights, thanks. My $.02 is that Harley made a big mistake discontinuing the Sportster. The new one is unappealing. The should have made incremental improvements to the old model and kept offering it as a entry/upgrade point for younger folks after value for money motorycles.
Agree mate, I love my Harley dealership in Perth Australia, I have dealt with Matt the dealer principle for 16 years, I have brought 7 new HD from him but my two year old FXDLS will be the last, $68,000 dollars for CVO standard without stage one, I paid $35000 for my bike and it has stage one plus seat and risers 30,000ks in two years now worth $25000, I have had bikes all my life and all manufacturers, Harleys are the most overrated bikes made, it’s all about the lifestyle but that ticket has gone now, I can buy a BMW with everything on for a lot less, or even the Indian is a better option 👊
From Kalgoorlie here, l dealt with Frasers for years and they were excellent in every way.
The moco has done absolutely nothing to attract younger or new riders for over 30 years, there's no shortage of younger or new riders getting into bikes but none of them are buying Harleys.
@@carllyons4903 an Indian is a far smarter & better option.
Greed is what is ruining Harley Davidson
Harley nailed the new heavyweight cruisers. The PanAmerica was a dismal quality launch and once they fixed it, it was too late and they were already made obsolete by BMW, Ducati and fast rising KTM. They need a midsize PanAmerica and total revamp of their midsize cruiser portfolio that is more competitive with Indian's updated Scout lineup.
Thank you for that. Here in Australia we can buy a 350 single cyl HD and a 500 single cyl HD. Granted, they are not made in the US, but I suspect that's not a deal breaker for those of us who see HD as a global company, with global markets in mind, rather than a US company. When HD sold the 500cc and 750cc V twins up until recently, they were big sellers here, and therefore probably a good entry point into the HD brand.
I’m just glad I got mine before h-d goes bust again .. rides beautifully after I put 10 grand in upgrades
i have a 10 yr old Yamaha 3 cyl (fz09) with 50k miles on it, paid 7k for it new. and just bought a 2024 Mt10sp for 16k. literally the pinnacle of motorcycle technology and reliability. HD priced themselves out of the market 20 years ago.
anyone who gets on a crossplane 4 and gets to hear it @ 11k rpm, will never look back.
in city mode its a Cadillac, in A mode its a terrifying beast.. its like getting 3 bikes in 1. A touring bike, an aggressive street bike, or a track destroyer.
The boomers were the only reason HD did what it did, they got way to complacent, and now market forces are going to crush it.
makes me sad too, my dad (RIP) loved HD and rode them until he couldn't., i want them to succeed, even though i know better and will never buy one.
I know HD is messed up across the board, but for many reasons, my '23 LRS 117 is the bike I want to swing a leg over. Just bought a red '24 GSXS1000GT plus and as excellent as it is, Id rather rumble with the big turd.
And you thought AMF was bad 😂
Indian took the same percentage hit in sales this past quarter as HD.
Triumph will prevail as the winner. They have a perfect balance between entry level and high end. They have great build quality, models people want and a broad appealing lineup.
I am curious where you got your information about Indian sales?
For me, Triumph's will always be the best. I've had a fantastic run with them.
They have been trying to shoot themselves in their own foot for years.
In my opinion, H-D's problems include..
Over price and over optioned models. Sportster. Just a cool, simple basic bike that was FUN to ride! Now it's gone.
Aggravated themed dealer network with sales staff swarming you.
The 'high end' push will go against the core customers who supported them for decades. Don't forget where you came from.
DEI was just the cherry. Dealer experience, price add ons not listed on the price tag. Price in general and an obtuse attitude to their most loyal customers. I’m suspicious that it’s because we are aging out? Nevertheless there must be a way to run the company, adding new younger generations without alienating current customers. That won’t be accomplished by the current POS CEO. Unless and until he is sh**canned, my money will be closed to Harley!
Unfortunately you are spot on , I’ve test ridden the nightster etc and for the money they are awful, Enfield make a cool 650 that Harley should have made maybe with a slightly bigger engine, that people could afford.
Agree completely. I've thought this for many years. You are correct about Triumph they have reacted to the market swing perfectly. Royal Enfield really kicked this trend off with the Twins which I purchased the very first time I saw it at the dealer. Love it! Where I live even Harley's that are 10 years old with some issues are expensive, I will say prices on the used are coming down but that is because the economy has shifted and people are being more protective. Good one sir.
just think of what Harley did to the motorcycling public in the United States back in 1984
for those who don’t know
at the time , The Japanese were introducing new models faster than the motorcycle magazines could do reviews on them, modern suspension, modern ignition systems that didn’t have just a fixed timing, they came out with transistor and capacitor, discharge ignition, then they started coming out with water cooling for big street bikes, tubeless shaft drive, four valves per cylinder, water cooling, which is 4000 times more efficient than air cooling which means you can have higher compression engines when you can control the heat. That was around the time the Japanese motorcycles were so reliable they were able to eliminate Kickstarter’s, three cylinder, in-line 4s. V4s , Turbo charging.. six cylinders. The advancements in motorcycle engineering and design what is the most productive time in motorcycling history.
The public was not interested in AMF Harley Davidson’s. It was the same old, same old…
so Harley hired a Wall Street insider CEO named von bealls..
very smart businessman. He went right to the top and had Ronald Reagan put a 45% tariff on all imported motorcycles, Italian, German, English, and especially Japanese motorcycles. . The claim was that the Japanese were trying to drive Harley out of business by dumping motorcycles here below cost. So Harley needed help to save the 600 American jobs at the Harley Davidson factory.. they were waving the American flag, and calling on President Ronald Reagan to be patriotic and apply a 45% tariff to imported motorcycles..
that’s what he did
Imagine a Honda automobile today that sells for $29,995, jumping to $47,500 just because the president says so. Let’s not forget the additional tax on the higher selling price and the increased payments and the increase in your auto insurance, to cover a larger loss for the insurance company because of the sticker price.
well, that’s what happened to all imported motorcycles. A typical 750 price was $2995. You could get them for Les but that was the sticker price from the big four from Japan. Well that price went to $4750 in the blink of an eye when the tariff was applied.
The result was it saved the 600 Harley Davidson workers jobs, which were probably not going to be lost anyway
Within the first two years of that tariff, 1100 Japanese motorcycle dealerships, went out of business forever. There were no more inexpensive motorcycles. Those 1100 motorcycle shops that went out of business so quickly, had seven. Employees on average. That’s more than 7000 American jobs that were lost since were talking about saving American jobs. That was just in the first two years.
show rooms were deserted in Japanese motorcycle and the European motorcycle dealerships. They were deserted. I know because I sold motorcycles part time in those days.
there was one year in particular that sales were so good for Yamaha. They had a motorcycle that was very popular in the United States, the XS 650 twin. In one calendar year they sold 120,000 of those 650s. They were in expensive and they were 100,000 mile machines. ..
search the tariff of 1984/85, Yamaha has not sold 120,000 motorcycles of all sizes combined in a single year ..
so what does that have to do with Harley Davidson sales today?
in the 40 years since the tariff , The price of motorcycles went up for the tariff years, but they never came back down after the tariff.. Young men we’re not buying motorcycles, and when they got older and got married, they weren’t buying mini bikes and little dirt bikes for their kids. So their kids grew up, not becoming motorcyclists that would eventually graduate up to larger motorcycles and Harleys.
so we’ve had 40 years, that’s for generations of motorcyclists that never got started in motorcycling due to the price of motorcycles that started with the tariff of 1984..
so Harley can cry me a River, because they have no one to blame for the lack of interested buyers than themselves. They started this elimination of future generations of motorcyclist 40 years ago.
there were 22 Japanese dealerships within an hour of my home before the tariff. Today, here in 2024, there are only three Japanese dealerships that have survived this long, and that’s because they are family owned and they’ve had the buildings paid for since before the tariff.
I worked at several different shops, first, as a mechanic at three different shops, and I sold motorcycles during the busy season here in Pennsylvania for 17 years at several different shops before, and I tried to sell motorcycles after the tariff, but it was not worth it. Before the tariff, there was one Saturday I sold seven bikes, in six hours. There was onetwo week pay period that I had 17 motorcycles go out the door. It was a great second part-time gig for me. February through May. After June 1, anybody that was going to buy a motorcycle, already had it by then… so I would take the summer off until the following February and I would work three evenings and Saturday making more money selling motorcycles than I did at my real job..
two of the dealerships I worked for declared bankruptcy, one of the owners lost his home
another dealership that was way out on a limb, went to prison, trying to make up his losses by transporting suitcases, full of cocaine to stay in business. What’s the way DeLorean ended up going to prison.. I wasn’t working for that dealership at the time, I never even spoke to the new owner that went to prison, but I heard from the guys I used to work with there what happened ..
at the same time, since the United States was possibly the biggest market for the big four in Japan, they cut way back on development of new models, and we have never seen that exponential jump in technology, or the like of that again..
Meanwhile, Harley is making watt, the same basic design motorcycle Steve been making for decade after decade. I have had 111 motorcycles so far. I have friends that have had far more motorcycles than I have had. It gets in your blood, you become a lifelong motorcyclist. A lot of the motorcyclists that I know have multiple motorcycles. When I retired, I had eight, a Goldwing, suzuki, V Strom, 1000, a moto guzzi Norge.. and my commuter bike, a Honda pacific coast, which I commuted on for 24 years without so much as a bulb burning out..
The elimination of affordable motorcycles, in 1984 put an end to motorcyclists like me, and many many of my friends, because they were too expensive for people to get started in motorcycling. It’s not just the price of the bike, it’s the gear you have to buy how much jackets, boots gloves, it’s the insurance you have to buy, it’s the payments… it adds up fast.. There are Harleys out there on the showroom floors… some of the brand new Harley Davidsons actually cost more than some of the brand new Cadillacs you can buy today..
and they cant understand why their sales are tanking..
something else that is not going to boost their sales is the announcement of opening another Harley Davidson manufacturing plant in Thailand,, to join the plants they have in Brazil and India now..
ironically, this whole catastrophe of eliminating motorcyclists from ever getting started in the hobby of motorcycling, started under the pretense of saving 600 American jobs at the Harley factory in the United States. Now they are about to wave the flag of Thailand, Brazil, India, and the United States on the Harley Davidson dealership polls..
unbelievable that this all started because they wanted to save 600 American jobs at the Harley factory ..
but that was yesterday, and yesterdays gone….
You are absolutely correct, and it is the main reason I hold such contempt for H-D. They have never been able to compete and win on a level playing field, hopefully their "chickens" are finally coming home to roost.
@Jodyrides Exactly. This is a perfect example of how tariffs exist purely to protect the interests of corporations and end up coming out of the pockets of consumers. You see it now happening with Chinese EVs. The public should be outraged that cheap transportation is being kept out of reach for no good reason.
Really interesting. I want to buy a new HD, I have the funds ready to go…but I just cannot bring myself to buy it with a sticker saying..”made in Thailand”
You're incorrect, Harley didn't put tariffs on all Japanese motorcycles, as you've claimed, it was on motorcycles above 700cc.
Going back to that time there were few bikes over to 1000cc point, 750 and above was mostly just the touring market with a handful of sport bikes in that class.
Everything you said was spot on. I owned a couple of brand new Yamaha XS650's in the day. One normal, the other a black special. Probably the best motorcycles I've owned, and I've owned heaps. I now have a 2010 Triumph Thruxton 900. I love this bike as it sounds and feels the same as what my old XS650's were to ride. Those were the days.
A motorcycle any brand are on the decline. Its a luxury item. With the world economy in a slump there is the answer. But if you want it you'll find a way.. especially Harley a luxury brand..
I prefer my 2013 sportster "72" over the 2023 road glide I tested.
The new bikes don't have the same feel.
Harley tried to tell me that the MSRP was around $30,000 on a Road Glide Standard. When told them another dealership had MSRP about $27,000. Then they tried to tell me all what was involved in the cost of the Harley, I told them I would pass.
Pan American frame bracket issue. Do a video on that. Crooked front faring and display for years. Even a forum on it
In the UK the bikers are getting older, everyone is suffering but HD is a niche brand and not adapted as you said.
Youngsters are being priced out of biking by ridiculous insurance premiums because the police are not allowed to deal with the scumbags as is needed.
I visit Thailand and Cambodia often and Honda waves and Yamaha scoopys are like flies, those manufacturers saw an opening as you said and exploited it so yes you and many here are correct, stop over complicating Harleys and bring back good value old style Sportsters and Dynas perhaps
£8k trade in for a ‘21 street bob against a Pan America. They don’t want to sell them….
I've been watching HD's mindset becoming more boutique boomer-based since I was a broke 20-something in the 1990s. Good luck keeping that going!
I have a Nightster S, excellent motorcycle, yes it costs more than the same size bike of another brand BUT it's actually good value when you look at all of the tech , innovation and engineering. On top of all of that , I have many dealers to rely on if or when I need/ want parts . I still like Harley, they are my go to , that's all there is to it.
Another one. 😂 What is it about H-D that attracts all this criticism? Are they over-priced? Yup. Low on tech? Yup. Sales are soft across the market. Do your homework.
I don't see the issue. You can have a perfectly good Street Glide for $26k US or a GS1300 for $29k w/o a radio, GPS, or saddlebags. Looked at the Indian Street Glide equivalent and it was also sporting a pennies under $30k price tag. Not sure what the plastic Gold Wings are going for, but I'd guess near $30k too. The idea of building budget bikes doesn't work unless you're selling products made in a low wage country. Ain't no way in Hell that HD could be competitive w/ anyone on American salaries.
A fully loaded Gold Wings are $29k out the door, none of that Harley tax bs that adds at least another $4k. Then the Gold Wing comes stock with heated grips and seat, more powerful engine, much cheaper to run (regular gas v premium) and finally way more reliable...btw I ride a 2019 HD RGS with 70k miles that had to have a engine rebuild at 40k and transmission rebuild at 58k, thank god for extended warranty, talking about warranty, a Gold Wing warranty is 3 years not 2 AND extended 5 year warranty STARTS when the previous 3 year factory one expires, not overlap like the HD one. My next bike will be a Gold Wing!
The dealers by me won't deal. They want full list prices for new unsold units 2 years old.
And on top of that, they installed aftermarket bling, not OEM parts, and want even more due to the markups.
After multiple trips to different dealers in other states, and finding the same things, I gave up.
I actually bought a brand new Cadillac for less than a Harley Davidson trike.
HD should follow Triumph's business model.
I've just bought a RE Himalayan. Mods. Decat pipe opened the air box and a fuelx. It goes like stink and way less than 10k. Everything I'll ever need in my market(:-)
The dealerships are just as much to blame for declining sales, low moral, pre-judging people, inflated prices, price gouging, non transparent pricing, high interest rates, difficult to negotiate. In 2017 I bought a brand new Dyna, I felt like part of a family celebration at the moment of signing, great experience, today you walk in and they look at you like you're an alien walking through the doors, like wtf are you doing here!
Totally Agree...
You're spot-on, Alf.
Harley-Davidson corporate pulled three boners lately, which is going to cook their goose.
1) all their woke bulll 💩
2) shipping American jobs overseas (Rev Max, Asia)
3) refusal to match customer needs|wants in terms of value, performance, and price.
They're done in the U.S. market, it's just a matter of time.
HD's numbers are going to go South like a duck in Winter. 🦆
marcus
Agreed on numbers 2 and 3.
I agree on all three points.
I've said it before I'll say it again hate the company love the bike I have an 89 Harley and I'm not getting rid of it not a fan of the look of the new bikes.
I have a 2010 Road King Classic that has 55000 miles. A few upgrades and I keep it clean. Lots of looks and compliments every time I’m out! Roars when I want but purrs mile after mile! Never selling it! Oh, and a great dealer in Fremont NE.
I considered getting a low rider ST, ended up trading my scout Rogue 22 for a Springfield DH 23.
Even though I really liked the LRST I just found that it wasn’t worth it for its price point. It was more expensive that the 23 Springfield mind you.
It depends on which market.
Here in Europe there is no need for buying a new Harley. There are thousands and thousands of 2hand bikes for sale. All with low miles and in perfect shape. Once owned by yuppies (Fatboys only) and retired dentist (Roadkings etc) who never really liked to ride. For guys like me who always thought HDs were too expensive (they are) but really wanted to ride one, now is the right time. Do we need dealers? No, we’re not gonna buy a new one. Those 2hands are almost new. Personally I’m looking for a ‘13 or ‘14 Street Bob. With only a few thousand km on the clock you see them for 1/3 of the new price.
The main problem is the tennis shoe CEO. They need to get someone in there with a lifelong passion for big motorcycles. And they need to get back to the basics. My '92 FXRS is way more fun to ride, has real instruments, and runs cooler than my '22 FLHCS. And way easier, WAY easier to work on!
The only thing Harley-Davidson has done is learned how to take advantage of their loyal customers I have a 24 Road Glide for 7 months and it is not my favorite bike they're all zip ties and plastic
feeling robbed?
As both a Harley owner and can of the brand I'd like to believe that the senior management at H-D along with the board will see the light and introduce a sub 10K Sportster 900/1200 , if the Japanese and European manufactures can all introduce sub 10K entry level bikes then surely Harley can ?
Skullduggery in some dealerships doesn't help either,plus it gives HD a bad name.The company should provide oversight to see that un-ethical business practices are routed out,and franchises revoked in extreme cases.The Mo-co should emphasize transparency in the buying process,and give realistic offers on trade ins.If they do that,sales will definitely increase.
100%. You, me and Blind Freddie could see the decline coming. The thing is, to HD corporate, sales volume is less relevant as long as there are profit increases from the previous year. As long as HD can ride out the current difficult cost of living crisis and they can continue to sell at enough volume levels at higher prices that the market can withstand that produce results which increase in annual profit, then they will continue with their strategy. HD is not interested in selling low margin Scramblers to farmers and commuters or small adventure bikes to keen enthusiasts across the entire spectrum at reasonable market prices, they are interested in selling shiny expensive higher margin bikes to the million dollar bogan type customer and middle class folk.
Motorcycles in the US have turned into a discretionary purchase as a fun vehicle and not primary transportation. You’re right they have to develop a lower priced bike. A $30K bike is a big deal to buy. They also have created another problem because the core US customer is not going to buy a Harley-Davidson assembled in Thailand.
They should fix their drive line issues the compensator problem is alarming 36,000 kms on a $35,000 bike and the compensator is toast, a couple of grand to fix with no guarantee it will be fix other issues the rubber used on the pegs,grips and the licence plate light on the Australia brake out (you cannot replace the globes)the only options it to replace the whole unit this will be my last Harley I have owned a 1994 low rider and a 2007 softail custom but the break out is the worded looks good but turned out to be a real pain
Here in Canada the Harley prices are pretty much on point with Indian, Honda etc. A new Honda or Yamaha top of the line sport bike here in Canada is over $30000. All brands are over priced here.
I'm 51 and my current bike is a '23 Hayabusa. But in my mid 20's I was REALLY wanting a Harley. Couldn't afford one then, and certainly wouldn't buy one today because the value is not there.
You’re harping on price , it’s NOT price. It’s not enough new riders getting into the market. Harley-Davidson is a premium brand like a BMW or Porsche.
BMW is selling their GSs like crazy here in the Netherlands. They are almost at the same price point as HDs.
Walked into my local HD shop a few months ago and the place was packed with brand new baggers. Average price was beyond 30 grand. My immediate thought was who, in these financial times, are they going to sell them to. I discovered that, no matter how poor a financial risk someone is, harley davidson financial will find a way to move a motorcycle. Very sad.
I’d love to see the payment plan when they add the total interest on top of that. Bike probably costs $45k all in, then after 8 years of the lease you owe $35k on a bike worth $28k so you offer it for sale above the new price and refinance it until the end of time
I don't even call them motorcycle shops any more............ I call them museums.
I don't see Harley-Davidson changing they are very hard headed.
Harley is a nich market. There has always been old people with money that want to be young again and pretend to be a bad boy. But Harley has played the bad boy market too long and their people are dropping off like flies. There's a bigger market out there and the Japanese have captured it. Royal Enfield is getting into that market too. Then there's the adventure bike market starting to grow. In fact the adventure bike market is the most exciting of them all. It covers all the bases of trail riding and road riding. It's practical and fun.
When thinking about a bike that is the easiest to live with. Cruisers make the most sense. ADVs are cool. But Cruisers are the most comfortable
@@Mike-jv8bv I would like to see Harley bring out the classic 45 inch WW2 model. Put a soft tail on it but keep the overall classic look but keep it light weight as possible. Harley desperately needs a smaller bike.
@@thomasjefferson1457Now that would be something.
I’ve owned four Goldwings, Big touring Harley’s, some of the fastest stock bikes on the planet like the Honda Blackbird and CBR1000RR etc….and many more but now I am looking to buy a Royal Enfield Himalayan 452 tubeless when they arrive here in Texas. For under $8,000 cash I can have a fun cheap bike. I’m done paying $30,000 for bikes and the ridiculous damn shop labor costs. I am buying a simple light cheap dependable bike I can work myself. RE is appealing because it’s not a $30,000 plus motorcycle. The RE 452 for me fits where I am at now. I am done too with flying 185 MPH down roads far away from cities and people too. I’m slowing down.
Blokes like me who've done their back and knee aren't looking for a massively heavy bike.
The Sportster would be perfect....inste6 HD have viven this market to Indian.
Did HD do customer testing on the nighster because its a non seller.
HD older customer don't want anything new. New younger customer don't want anything old. 🤷♂️
Back, way back in the early days people looked at price verses value and other things but the most important was the pocket book. Harley has rung out the hype towel buyers aren't getting laid or getting noticed as they envisioned. Most people make a bad face when harleys go by as Bob Dylan once sang, the times they are a changin.
Sounds like hd shoulda stuck with the evo's. Easy maintenance , good aftermarket , pretty bulletproof motor.
cool custom choices and people like them.
HD Wolverhampton has a shop window full of bikes but only 2 are HD, the rest are Secondhand Triumphs, BMW, KTM, Suzuki, says it all really.
Isn’t it a good sign? They obviously bought a Harley?
Maybe, or bought in stock to sell at a more achievable price.
@@Machinehead90 good point
Harleydonot allow
Anyone remember the early 1980ies? Before the Evo came out, Harley Davidson was in rough shape, about to go under. Even journalists in mc magazine wrote: "Let them die, Harleys are junk". Maybe today, Harley are at a similar low point?
@@mcnut1 quiet possibility
Rev max engine has no sound or soul. It’s just crap
Have you rode one?
@@brucem8129 yes. And it broke down on the run…, well the electrics failed
@@dombower i have 2, never failed. Either has my M8s.
I am an owner of Harley number 7. I do agree with you
I would argue that Royal Enfield have been the canary in the coal mine for other manufacturers in recent years. For my mind, if Royal Enfield aren't the "trend setters", they've certainly picked the changing trends in the market better than anyone else. Austerity chic is a fashion that RE have been able to capitalise on, well.
Zeitz and the board (bored!) at Harley Davidson have simply been unable to adapt to changing conditions. Their focus on "exclusivity" and a "premium" experience might have been well founded five or six years ago but that ship has well and truly sailed. Now, HD find itself competing with low mileage examples on the used market. Not good.
"Austerity chic" ...this does describe Royal Enfield. Loving my Super Meteor and sport glide.
Hey Alf Harley are doing fine they received 90 million off the government and they’re moving manufacturing to Thailand
Still 2023 CVOs, available locally. $6-9K discounts not getting buyers. Of course after dealer add-ons its only a $199.99 discount.
Ain’t that the truth.
CVO fool's purchase.
Harley Davidson makes 800 pound bikes with low-power, high-torque air-cooled V-twin motors, and they charge top dollar for them. That's who and what they are, and who and what they have always been. They've tried to break out of that paradigm many times in the past, but they keep coming back to it, because that's the only thing that they can make work for them. If you're not into paying top dollar for an 800 pound bike with a low-power, high-torque air-cooled V-twin motor, then I don't see how you claim to be into Harleys. Yes, their market is shrinking, but so is the market for all the other motorcycle brands. The economy is tight, interest rates are high, and to most people, paying huge money for an expensive toy just isn't in the budget.
For posers only
I traded my 22 road king stage 2 for a new goldwing. Best choice ever.
I've spent my money on an affordable Fang Yung 125 and it's fantastic. They are the future as incomes decline.
Never in my life have I paid more than 1/3 what a new HD costs for a new motorcycle. HD is recourses with their HD taxes on T-Shirts, Financing and Insurance ect.
It's harder to find Indian Sales Stats, but they would be very telling compared to HD
The one thing we don't know is what H-D has in development. It's hard for me to believe they are just going to sit on their hands while they go broke.
"Where the market is going" The market isn't going anywhere until we start growing younger riders. Young folks couldn't give a shit for motorcycles. They might come up to you and tell you "nice bike", but they have no intention of ever owning/operating a bike. It's a sickness we have to cure PDQ or we will be seeing the end of motorcycling.
when the revolution max engine came out the brand lost its appeal to harleys core buyers.
They have tried to build something to appeal to the younger riders but unfortunately the other manufacturers are decades ahead of them in looks and style..it's like they have employed the old designers from honda whose last project was the honda diversion
HD was having sales probs well before the DEI stuff. That was just the final nail in the coffin that people wanted to grab onto, to divert the actual blame.
Boomer/genX customer base aging out, predatory pricing, cost of ownership, dodgy QC and reliability, constant product recalls, ripoff service centers, and the whole fake biker lifestyle thing they have been shoving for 50yrs are but a few others.
Primarily though, it's been economics--younger gens just can't afford them. Same thing is happening abroad, with other brands. The interest is there, but has shifted to smaller cc bikes. Do your research. Look at stats for used bike sales and you'll have your answers.
I am one of those currently fortunate enough to be able to purchase a new H-D if I so choose. However, the economy and future financial certainty are such that I am 'saving' my expendable cash 'just-in-case'. Therefore I will not be spending on any new motorcycle, rather spending lesser amounts of cash on a nice holiday.
Absolutely nailed the situation, fully agree. All mainstream manufacturers are going to be caught on the hop by the rise in Chinese offering that are far from sub standard. Just look at CF Moto and Voge. They have cut their teeth making engines for KTM and BMW and now they offer damned good product at down to earth prices.
Yes but it’s not a Harley is it, I ride old school Harley’s
I had Harley’s for 9 years. Sold my last one in August for a modern bike.
I would rather cut my nuts off with rusty scissors than ride a CF Moto and my wife agrees.
Nobody wants those junk chinese bikes.
I am amazed they have lasted this long ,form over function ,always have been
A Kawasaki h2 sx is $30,000. With a tune, it puts out 230+ Hp, has every tech feature that you can think of, is bulletproof and can be ridden all day.
The bike can handle it, but the rider won't after more than 3 hours on it. Don't get me wrong, I love powerful Kawasaki sports bikes, but they're not a long distance cruiser.
Check out Smoaks vlog and all the trouble his new Pan Am is giving him with the fairing misaligned from the Factory . He's a certified motorcycle tech and is trying to fix it himself . I can only assume he doesn't trust the dealer to fix it . His isn't the only Pan Am with this problem .
They all have problems. For example, BMW 1300 GS has many more issues than the HD Pan Am. All vehicles are in trouble and declining. Dodge, Jaguar , and everyone of them are making the most stupid moves.
Harley is going Chapter 11 for the same reason the NRA is. Customer base is drying up with no new base to replace it.
Emissions will ultimately be the death of the big street bikes.😮
I don't believe they dropped the sportster because of the epa. The m8 passes. I think the sportster needed a 6 speed and the cost to do that would be prohibited. Same as the product as it to needed to be a 6 speed.
The vrod also needed to be a 6 speed
They haven’t adapted at the same time their core demographic is dying off or isn’t going to replace their current bikes. The current demographic certainly isn’t going to replace bikes that have annoying built in tech.
Niche bike brand in a niche market . on top of that inflation has slowed the market down . All markets are realigning from the high inflation since Covid ! Great video 👍👍👍
The HD demise starts with their hideous product, now throw cynical customer relations into the mix and you have the end of the road unless corrections are made.
HD's decline is not a difficult thing to understand; their bikes are over-priced, over rated shite, nobody wants them, they are no longer cool and haven't been for a generation. The brand is toxic, dominated by old, middle aged white men, a demographic that is only getting older and the younger biker, a rare thing indeed, is just not interested in the brand. Iv'e been a rider for 30+ years and have had many, many bikes from varying manufacturers and I can categorically state that I would not have an HD for free.