Why I Don't Like Comic Books (DC & Marvel)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2024
- I think that mainstream comics, namely DC and Marvel, have some serious issues when it comes to their storytelling and how their characters and universes are handled. Sharing my thoughts on what I think these problems are, and how they could be addressed.
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Same reason I can not want sitcoms anymore. Any character growth they learn gets erased. Honestly I do wonder if floating timeline means that the characters live in purgatory, sentenced to repeat and forget for all of eternity.
And don't forget it's not the characters fault that any permanent change can't happen in the stories that they are in it's mainly the writers refusal to make any satisfying conclusions to those stories it's like the characters have no control of their own destiny anymore because they're always bound to the fate of the writers because what your character is says a lot about the writers and you can't really hate Spider-Man Batman or any other superhero or villain for this they are just bound to the tethers of the writers themselves because if I were the one running those stories then I would have make sure that there will be a real satisfying ending to it and then when your villain or hero dies you can always pass down the legacy to the next generation anyway so instead of hating the comic it will be obvious if you just hate the writer instead because why do you blame a comic book character for not having any permanent change when the writers are the blame at least that's what I personally think
I cannot watch sitcoms at all I really dislike them. The closest I got was the Office, which is my one exception (not sure if it counts as a sitcom).
@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt as a fan of the office, I can say modern family, curb, IASIP, and community are also pretty great if not outright better than the office.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt pretty sure the office is a mockumentary and the office is a really bad representation of them
@@Mal-go5dl Out of those the only one I've seen a bit of is Modern Family, but I wasn't a huge fan from the clips I saw.
While I prefer manga, I also read comics from time to time. The secret to enjoying comics is by treating them differently from manga. Don't try to read all the comics of a superhero. Just look up what are the most popular stories with that character and read them like self contained stories. It's similar to watching superhero movies, they are usually based on the best stories of the character
I've mostly done this to be honest, just cherry picked a few stories for characters I like. But it's a shame I can't engage with the wider narrative of what's going on since it seems to be a mess.
I usually like to read a run by a single writer of a character and see it as an isolated story. For example, I love the Jim starlin comics with thanos, I've read other authors writing good thanos stories, but normally I separate them from my "headcanon"
I like to buy single issues with cool art and then read the stories online
I just treated all of the superhero stories I read as if they were ALL multiverse stories anyway, because that's how I approach fiction in general. I've been doing that since I was a kid. Anytime I ran into a storyline that didn't match up with canon in another story about that character, I just said to myself, "oh, it's a different universe", and just kept it moving. None of that bothered me.
I also didn't choose books based on what was the most popular stories. As a writer and artist myself, I'd just follow the writers and artists I liked the most.
I’m a massive X-Men fan and one of my personal hobbies is trying to brainstorm my very own X-Men adaptation (preferably an animated universe like the DCAU) were I do away with the issues you mention here.
Characters dies and stays dead, characters loses their powers and actually loses them or regains them at a very high cost.
Also the world would change over time. The X-Men starts as outcasts but as more supernatural things becomes known to the public like demons and aliens etc they starts to become a more traditional superhero team. And the X-Mansion would constantly expand and change and take in more mutants who weren’t necessarily X-Men etc.
This honestly sounds awesome. I'd love to read a story like this! I really feel like we're missing out on something truly great by not allowing the story to progress meaningfully.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2ptOne issue that I really would have liked to have seen in the comics that sadly isn’t possible due to the whole status quo reset you mentioned is to have Wolverine actually fully adopt X23 and be a genuine father figure. But that sadly isn’t possible because Wolverine must remain the “edgy” superhero so have him fully commit to being a father wouldn’t work.
The X-Men central story was just a cold war story but the mutant story was only really professor X and the teams excuse to team up.
Each team member had their own story arc....
Then the 90s and 2000 happened.
The stories became soo obsessed with events characters started just standing around with nothing to do
I do the same thing for Batman.
From that I understand about American comic books, its current status was shaped by Congressional hearings in the 1950s that were spurred by the book Seduction of the Innocent by Fredric Wertham. Before the hearings, American comic books covered a much wider variety of genres, including horror, romance and science fiction; after the hearings, the superhero genre was the only one left standing. Other genres have started to come back in recent decades, but DC and Marvel still have an outsized influence in American comic books as the result of the hearings and their impact on the comic book industry.
Very interesting thanks for sharing this. Who'd have thought a decision from that long ago would shape the whole modern industry!
I concur, up to 1950 ish, the comics landscape was more diverse and not truly targeted at kids. The censorship of the 50s and 60s (boosted by the McCarthy doctrine) destroyed much of the industry. which also coincide with the rise of Disney. (Coincidence?). What no one talk about is the fact that censorship went international. In Europe, la Bande-Dessinées Franco-Belge had no problème making stories aimed at the adult market until the same decades when censorship force many publisher to remove or change their portefolio. One example is Buck Danny, a young engineer, whose first story was about his participation to WWII as a US Navy pilot. The serie had a dozen albums covering the WWII era, the demobilisation, the advent of the jet engines and the Korean war when censorship struck and ruled that Buck Danny could no longer talk about war because the medium was aimed at kids. This had for result to force its creator to skip every wars the US was involved in; which is ironic for a serie whose stories are about a US Navy pilot.
I'm summarizing the whole things but let's say that because of this, those particular albums were "unavailable" for almost 30 years, only to be re-introduce in the 80s. Currently, a new serie called "Buck Danny "Classic" is revisiting those conflict so that we could finally have those stories free of the censorship of the time.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt ekhm, Dell Comisc?
Also to mension about manga, is the format itself. While regular western comics are random in their binding size, anount and quality. Manga books keep having a same-ish size and formating. which makes them easier to store.
Another thing is paper quality and colors. A simple thing like having colors in your comic requires you to have more quality paper to allow color print, which costs more money to print - therefore, smaller/less popular comic series are forced to cut down on page number. On the other hand, manga can be printed on glorified toilet paper, since it is mosty in just black and white, thus lovering the overall cost, allowing artists more leeway for their storytelling.
This basically means, that the scene, which european/american comic artist is required to fit on one page, manga artist can stretch over 3-4 pages.
(to state again, this mostly hurts european, or indie comic books, marvel can afford it, but they have other problems. If someone knows more about this process, i´ll be welcome to learn more)
This is very interesting and something I haven't seen anyone else talk about! Thanks for sharing.
Could you imagine if Harry Potter went with the same writing style as comic?
Instead of 7 books being released a little over a year between one another one book as been released every year since 1997.
And even though the books doesn’t necessarily cover a whole year each like the books actually did Harry shows no signs of aging despite having celebrated Christmas at Hogwarts over 8 times until like the ninth book that suggest he’s turned into a 13 year old.
And instead of building up to one final confrontation with Voldemort he just shows up occasionally with schemes that ranges from taking over the world to robbing the Gringotts Bank.
And Harry Potter and the marauders has many encounters with Death Eaters as well as other magic villains yet despite them using lethal spells the only character on Harry’s side to ever die is Sirius.
Lol yeah when you contrast it with a book then the flaws in the stories are even more exposed.
You’ve just described Pokemon anime.
Decades of stories across multiple series. And Ash Ketchum was always 10 years old and could never accomplish his dream.
It was only waaay later when perhaps the profits started to decline that Ash was finally allowed to end his journey and the series ended.
You obviously don’t read comics because comparing it to Harry Potter is so silly. They are completely different mediums with different end goals. Not everything has to fit neatly into the categories you’ve created in your head. They’re both stories but it’s a completely different kind of story telling. Comics are way closer to serials.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt I compare it to the simpsons every story is stand alone but there is a canon that matters when it suits the stand alone story.
So The Books of Magic? It has an ending.
This is why I think that Hellboy is the best comic book ever, probably.
Nothing is retconned, every character is important, and it actually has an ending that ties it all together in a neat little bow. Hellboy got me through covid so I might be a little biased but it, along with its sister series, provides everything mainstream comics refuse to give.
That's great, I really hope indie and alternative publishers grow to the point they can challenge Marvel and DC for the mainstream comic reading audience.
Comic fans say they want change as they're tired of seeing the same thing, but as soon as there's change, they RIOT. Demanding things to go back before any arc is concluded
I mean there’s change, then there’s complete bastardization.
Because the change is inherently lame. Characters don't die because their story is over. They die to sell books and because its the current thing. There is no plan, the change exists because other writers did everything else.
@@DeBean970 death also means northing in anime
@@DeBean970characters dont die in comics characters dont die in anime either
@@yarc9exept for villains
The only thing I wished you touched more on was the elseworld stories.
I absolutely agree with everything you said, I've studied comic history my whole life and the Sisyphus effect of pushing the boulder uphill definitely gets old. But elseworld stories that actually are allowed to give characters satisfying endings because they don't need to adhere to the status quo are always amazing. Ex. Injustice comics kill heroes off and the stay dead, secrets get revealed and all effects the world and story. Same for the ultimate comics in Marvel. It's to the point I read more elseworld books than mainline series. Why watch Peter struggle with his horrible late 20s dating life when I can see him deal with being spiderman while also being a working husband and father.
Sisyphus is the perfect comparison for how I feel about comics. You do raise a really fair point about elseworld stories, I guess for myself I view them more as fanfic so I still get frustrated by thinking of the "official" story the characters are trapped in. But you're completely right that's probably a better way to enjoy these stories.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt I totally understand why you view them as fanfics. You're not the only one plenty of people see it that way that's why most are afraid to even pick up a elseworld story, they don't see what they can really gain out of it as far as a sense of satisfaction goes. But I see elseworld books more as, "What if these characters stories actually had a payoff"
For example if you haven't already, I highly suggest reading the ultimate Spider-Man comics from the 2000s. It's the perfect example of a story that has a beginning middle and end for its characters. And to be honest it's one of the best Spider-Man books marvel has made in decades. Same thing for the dark Knight books. In my opinion these versions of these characters are the ones fans often think of more than the main line counterparts. You can actually make a drinking game out of how often comic fans mistake something that happened in a else world book as Canon to the main series. Elseworld books actually give these characters the stories they deserve completely removing the boulder from the equation. I would generally love to hear your thoughts on the elseworld stories that actually surpass what the mainline issues do in contrast.
@@MADLADCOMICS You make a really strong case for them! And the stories you described do sound very appealing, I'll have a look at the Spiderman run you mentioned, because I love Spiderman, and I may end up making a video on it!
That's why i just collect certain runs. Each author normally has a beginning, middle, and end. So i just stick with them
That's a good way to do it, although you probably still don't get a proper "ending" for a character.
Being a DC or Marvel superhero sounds like a living hell. Imagine a reality where you have to fight crime every day and deal with your family without aging and achieving your own goals. Everything you do will never matter, and you will soon become a villain yourself.
It's super depressing lol. They're trapped in an endless doom loop of suffering.
Finally someone to say it
I've been thinking of making this video for a while as it's definitely something that bugs me!
And you wonder why current comics are not as good because these writers keep giving us the illusion that some type of real progress is happening to the world and characters themselves but yet they been lie to us about any type of real progress that any type of hero or villain has gone through all of that change ain't going to matter if they are just going to reset the status quo anyway it makes you not want to read comic books anymore because the only way to get the best stories of a comic book is to make them yourself and it's fine if you don't get much money out of it but I rather read a free comic made by a fan then anything DC and marvel ever made because at least the fans fix every mess up things that have been happening in comic books or even remove plot holes that don't make sense in a comic book anyway
I think this is why Comics like The Watchmen are interesting; It actually ends.
My main gripe against videos like this is…no one who reads comic books actually want anything to “end.” Like you said you’re a casual reader….so this is a almost like a backseat drivers opinion. Then you have people comparing in the comments talking about letting the characters “end” or comparing it to Harry Potter? You should understand the medium first before saying stuff like this because the characters absolutely do grow. Comic books are like Mythology…I’ve never heard anyone complain about Zeus being “out of character.”
I think equating comic books too closely to mythology is a bit of a trap, as they serve different purposes and are told in different ways. That's true it's just my personal opinion though, I know some people may disagree with me.
Well said. True comic book readers want to perpetuate this hobby as much as possible. This guy clearly outed himself as a non-comic book reader, or at least a very recent one.
Is there anything wrong about not liking comics beacause you like good stories with satisfying endings?
Like he said it's hia opinion.
He doent have to read every comicbook to know that he won't find what he likes
@@killerjx4732 Comics are filled with good stories and characters don’t “regress” as much as people who obviously don’t read comics like to say. I’m not saying he should like them but if you barely read them you don’t need to talk about them. Opinions can be wrong. You guys just want everything to fit into little boxes so you can compare. Comic stories are special cause they don’t end. Also the status quo doesn’t stay the same. There’s more than one way for stories to exist. Every Arc has a conclusion. There is resolution in stories. Development and so much more that you wouldn’t know of you don’t read.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt Mythology is much closer than Manga or anything of the like because comics always change hands. I get what you’re saying but too many people make videos like this, it’s never any new points always “comics don’t end…why can’t Brice Wayne retire.” Obviously cause we don’t want those things…it’s a little insulting to comic fans
As a massive fan of both japanese and american media- i think it is both our country's capitalistic nature and the fact that many if not most of the popular and succesful anime's being made are not being made by a boardroom of writers and investors. I feel like we do not give enough credit to the people who create Manga. Usually it is ONE person who manually draws their panels AND writes and develops their worlds. The creator of Full metal, for instance, lived with WW2 veterans and marginalzied communities in japan in order to craft Amestris and Ishval. She studied the science of alchemy to better create a believable magic system and wrap a narrative around it. The level of dedication and respect from the craft is understood by artists across the board and by other's in the industry. I assume many within the DC building understand it too, but half of the building is also full of people who are only counting the pennies. Often manga authors only have 1 piece of work to call their major success before they pass away. Not unlike George RR Martin or JK Rowling. I think that's why we enjoy Dark Horse and Indie comics as well- because the boardroom of investors aren't there trying to keep dead things alive or milk it.
Japan *of course* has it's own ways of milking money- but usually it is through merchandise and collaborations with brands- where they keep shoveling plastic bullshit tied to exlusivity etc. But the art itself is usually untouched. IDK if new manga's do it, but back in the day when FMA was being released weekly, the artist use to draw herself in the final pages explaining her thought processes and to tell us when she was taking breaks or even say "honestly I wanted this character in this scene but i hate drawing them" lol. It was very intimate!
Wow that's really interesting thanks for sharing that. I love FMA but I had no idea the author had gone to such lengths. I think you're absolutely right though, when one person has a vision and creates a story based off that, it's an artistic endeavour. And it can't be replicated by a corporation just trying to cash in on their brand characters and milk them. There are so many modern retellings and sequels to older, established franchises which are just awful because of exactly this.
Great vid I totally agree I’ll never be able to get immersed in their worlds like I can with Oda’s
Thank you!
Well I guess you know about the Raimi trilogy has kinda harmed Spider-Man in the long run like I said before about Norman Osborn as everyone think was the case and I saw this video called Spider-Man 2 doesn’t get Spider-Man and how that it probably influence Zeb Wells run on Spider-Man and that Hollywood thinks Superman is a modern Jesus Christ which the creators are Jewish.
The thing about comic book characters is their movie and TV appearances filter into the mainstream consciousness, and then that in turns starts to influence their comic book portrayal. Superman has sadly been given a bad showing in the mainstream, along with a few other heroes.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2ptexactly and it’s the same with Harry Potter’s movie characters
@@srstriker6420 Yep 100%.
this bring me back to a video I saw discussing about a lot of new generation shonen manga ending
a lot of the comment of that video actually very happy about it because a series now isn't forced to be 700+ chapter before ending it.
they just run the series and end it on high note.
I much prefer the new gen shonen manga. I feel like we've all seen and hopefully learnt from the mistakes of the older style shonen.
While I agree with your view on comics, i don't for manga. Your parallel reads as a "nieghbour has greener grass", an example:
you can't really have a trio like: chara growth, narrative progression and satisfying conclusion and putting up an image of dragon ball (super). it's just lmao.
Overall manga dosen't work how you stated, there is usually no long lasting plan for a whole chara arc(different from a narrative arc) , because you can be axed at any moment. (bakuman has some great insight on that)
Also manga as a whole usually have bad conclusions. I won't name any for spoiler sake, but a good ending it's something you just don't usually see everyday.
Haha, you're definitely right that a lot of manga series, especially shonen ones, have bad endings or a lack of character growth. The format doesn't guarantee good writing, but it definitely allows for it more than comics I'd say. There are equally lots of manga series with really good stories and writing that end in a satisfying way, which is something I don't think is possible at all with the comic characters.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2ptI kinda agree and disagree with you on that one they are comic book Characters who don't have an ending like batman,superman and spider man but they also comics books series that have ended in satisfying mater like V for vendetta, Hellboy, watchmen, sandman,and many more while I agree of status que in marvel/DC is tires some that should not stop you from reading comics in fact you should checkout more comics from different companies like image
Characters do grow in comics, sure sometimes large character shifts will be undone for the sake of continuity, but in the individual runs they do actually grow and change dramatically. Growth is only sometimes undone after the run ends. You don't just have to read the main continuity resetting events, because there are hundreds of amazing runs that allows for growth, so it's a bit close minded to just say "what's the point." but there still is much to criticise with the industry, you can have that opinion but those are my thoughts.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. It's true there can be some temporary growth in individual runs, but if you want to engage in the broader narrative of the universe then you can't escape the problems I mentioned in the video. You can take the stories in isolation and enjoy them, but you still won't have the satisfaction of a true and final ending.
There's definitely changes that stick in comics, but they're selective. Like Magneto being a holocaust survivor wasn't how he was in the beginning, that got added later. Mr Freeze used just be yet another gimmicky villain who made crappy puns based on his theme, but evolved into a more complicated antivillain in the 90s after the animated series retooled him. If a change "clicks" it remains. If it doesn't it spins out and gets retconned or reworked.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt yeah true
1. They refuse to write a relatable Superman story where he changes minds instead of punching people.
2. Batman's Bat-god era (Grant Morrison's 2000s) elevated the character from the same old street stuff in Gotham to a more grandiose storyline. They won't allow him to truly clean up Gotham because the villains make too much money. He should be way too much for Riddler, Two-Face, Penguin, and the mob. Ra's Al Ghul, Bane, Joker, Kobra Cult, Prometheus, Wraith, and a Lovecraftian cosmic horror-inspired Ten-Eyed Man should be his main villains.
3. Spider-Man can't be happy. They gave his main love interest, MJ, to a random dude. Writers love miserable Peter.
All Star Superman is my favourite version of him - I wish he was more often shown like this.
I don't think they would kill characters like super man and just start a new way of doing comic books, but I do think the industry will slowly crumble, and the new generation that was affected so much by manga will start a new way of writing comics
I think comics bacame that way because of how they started, reading some older comics I see it was more of an episodic cartoon than a continuous story, but then they started doing big sagas and stories with characters that weren't well thought for that, so now we have batman going on a full blown crusade to save the anti dark polyverse, and in the next week he will be chasing condiment man, trough the alleys of gotham
True the power creep in comics is wild. I hope so, I do feel on some level the current model of western comics is unsustainable. So eventually they may be forced to adapt or change their approach.
this is the primary reason why manga is killing it right now in comparison to the western comic industry. They constantly keep their stories fresh by coming up with new ideas. Western comics use the same idea and just slap a new coat of paint on it. It gets stale pretty damn quick
To be honest I'm hoping the decline in comic sales will end up revitalising the industry. It really needs a shake up.
While manga differently does a lot of things better they run into similar problems and often times mangas fail to stick the landing with a satisfying ending
@@giovonniiclaytonalso we're the only few issues of manga is certain story elements of your manga is not expanded enough like Naruto for example even though it's a fine manga the manga is not truly fulfilling and the world building has not been expanded enough to be satisfying like for example expanding the relationship between Naruto and Sasuke flesh out the side characters more flesh out the other villages flesh out the other tail beast flesh out the other the kage and so much more that the manga could expand on because otherwise Naruto do we have a thousand issues instead of 700 issues so that way every character feels developed and the world feels complete because to be honest with you I may not read the Naruto manga or watch all of the anime but Naruto just feels undercook because after all the manga industry will pressure the creators to immediately get their manga out even though they have so much brand new ideas about what they can bring to the table for their manga
@giovonniiclayton very true. But honestly, this seems to be more of a writing and production issue that every medium deals with rather than a western superhero multiverse that has essentially bottled up all of their series into an unwinnable corner. And at the very least, if one series fails in manga, you always have plenty more different stories on the way. Not so for western superhero comics.
100% agree, it's the same problem that Star wars and doctor who have. If there's always money involved then there will always a reason to continue the story. Even though everything must have it's end
Sadly money & greed always ends up ruining true creativity...
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2ptyeah man this is mainly about the company benefiting itself it doesn't care if the readers want a ending to their story or even allow their characters to develop because they're just going to keep on making the success that they have of that character these companies just don't care this is why you're better off making your own comic book in your mind then letting greedy corporations doing it because don't we just get tired of comic books that don't have direction because without direction in your story then your story we'll just be boring as hell because the comic itself doesn't even know what to do with itself this is why comic books are this bad and I know I said I would blame the writers but let's not forget not all of this is their fault either at least not completely it's mainly just greed from the higher-ups that just forces these writers to make the stories that we didn't ask for instead of the writer being free to do what he/she wants with it they don't have the freedom to give your story the ending that you want because the only thing that these companies care about is just money and they'll do anything to do that even if it means recycling the same stories that we already read before in the past
@@JustinJulian-00 I mostly blame the high ups because I'm sure there are a lot of creative and passionate writers out there who have their hands tied by the execs. I'd love to create my own comic series but sadly I'm a rubbish artist. Perhaps one day I'll be able to write my own novel instead.
I agree with every point you make. This is the main reason why DC's comic sales have been plummeting recently. If I were a writer for someone like Batman, the first thing I'm doing is make his character grow in a way to where he finally realizes that not all villains can be redeemed. And so I would have made him kill the Joker with the same exact gun that Joe Chill used on Bruce's parents.
This would honestly be so much more interesting. It opens up a whole new avenue of explorations about Batman's character.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2ptExactly! And this is why I love what Zack Snyder did with Ben Affleck's version of Batman in BvS. Because he changed his status quo to where he answered the question on what if Batman lost his way. And at the end of BvS Batman realizes that the world can still be good and the world can rebuild in the darkest times
I don't think batman should kill, but it would be interesting for him to deliberately let joker die and not to try and save him.
@@kirakoraawesome For me the problem is when the writers want to have it both ways. Sometimes the Joker is a more run of the mill villain - more wacky than evil, and it's fine for Batman not to kill him. But other times he's portrayed as the ultimate evil, murdering and torturing on a mass scale, in which case it gets harder to justify not stopping him permanently.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt I just don't think it's in character. Batman isn't exactly sane himself, and has very black and white thinking when it comes to murder due to his trauma. The dude goes out of his way, again and again, to save people's lives no matter how evil or reprehensible they are. Almost every time he does kill in comics, he becomes evil. Sure, it's not a logical action to take, but batman is not a logical robot that makes the right choices 100% of the time, he is a human. A very, very, traumatized human. So unless the story is specifically a corruption arc, I prefer batman to not willingly kill anyone.
There are plenty of other characters that could kill joker, and I think it would be more interesting for either one of the other batfamily members, or even better: To me, the best death Joker could have would be at the hands of a random civilian and people forgetting about him, or maybe even something like a heart attack. An insignificant and boring end, something he'd hate.
I'd like to harp on your criticism about "Status Quo is King." I've gotten into the X-Men during the Krakoa era. It's really good. I enjoyed the idea that the X-Men finally had their own homeland, their own culture, and independence from humanity. There's also an Animal Farm type conflict baked into it where the Silent Council feels like they're just as secretive and corrupt as the human leaders they hated. But then what happened? Krakoa's gone now. X-men are back in Westchester. All for what? Brand Synergy!
Status Quo has gone worse in recent years because of the MCU. A lot of comics are being changed to reflect the movies and shows instead of vice versa. The comics are now the adaptation. And it sucks. We're not back to Peter Parker being a single loser. They even tried to bring him back to college after the Parker Industries arc. There's just no end. No progress.
Then when they do shake things up, it's always through edgy means that don't really elevate the narrative and often acts as character assassination. Take Injustice for example. That assassinated not just Superman, but characters like Hal Jordan and Wonder Woman too. And it keeps going. Every time DC is losing readers, its go-to move is either kill Superman or have Superman kill.
Even seemingly long term changes like the Deaths of Barry Allen and Hal Jordan got reversed decades later and now DC refuses to touch them because they're the "iconic" ones.
This is why I prefer manga and anime. In mainstream American comics, there's no One Piece, there's no being Hokage, there's no Dumpster Showdown, there's no unlocking the Pharaoh's memories, there's no goal. It keeps going because the characters have no arcs. Spider-Man keeps relearning the same lessons about responsibility decade after decade. Surely by now Batman would have learned to love his friends and family and be more open, right? Nope. If DC wants him to be an abusive brooding loner, he'll be one. If they want him to be a caring loving father, he'll be one. Often in the same universe, in the same timeline, sometimes in the same books almost erratically. In Manga, you know what Naruto wants. You see how Naruto learns. You see how Naruto grows. Then it ends. You mourn Neji's death because there's no way to bring him back.
This is also why Dragon Ball is bad now, it's become like mainstream American Comics. Characters don't stay dead. There's no clear goal for the characters or the story. It just keeps going. Goku and Vegeta keeps relearning the same lessons about efficiency and sacrifice. And then we just keep going until Toyotaro dies.
Honestly, I feel like jump is slowly getting to that point they rather do sequels to the already popular series
@@revolutionarydragon1123 theres only 2 one of which isnt even on jump and boruto was so hated they had to bring back the original writer anyways
You raise some really important and relevant points. Movies bleeding back into comics are probably (very sadly) unavoidable, since however mainstream audiences perceive characters is a big influence. And it takes a lot to change that perception.
Couldn't agree more about the manga and anime you mentioned. I find comics depressing in a way, seeing the characters struggle over and over again with the same problems and villains. They're just there to suffer.
Sadly money always ends up ruining creative works. I'm a strong believer that once a story is finished, it should be left to rest, but nowadays studios are too greedy and want to milk established franchises for all they're worth. But instead of creating original stories with new characters in the same universe, they milk and retroactively ruin old and existing characters.
There's strengths and weaknesses to everything. If Marvel and DC were to retire characters over time, many of the most iconic characters that are important to the brand would have never stuck around long enough to reach that point. The fact these characters have continued to stick around and have fans from multiple generations is a result of that. Like anything there's a point of diminshing returns but having comic stories keep going is not inheritly a bad thing.
If you look at the MCU, they are retiring characters , and there's plenty of great stories that will never get told with the character who went thru them as a result. They might retool them to have other characters tell these stories, but it won't be the same. Granted no story being retold should be a carbon copy of the original, as it should bring something new to make it worth while to people to reexperience, but there's going be even more lost in translation here.
Ultimately I think there's alot more going wrong with comics than simply they continue with an end. It's the lack of respect of the past and feeling need to trample it is where current comics have lost their way as they bring in people trying preach their politics rather than tell a good story. Most people are always up for a good story even if it's been told before. If the quality is there, people will enjoy it for it is. But being preached to, and bashed over the head with how they should feel is against how comics have been written for decades. They told a story and left it to fans to draw the conclusion they wanted to on where things stood. (Why you can have people proclaim Magneto is right.)
DC has a different problem, of Superman and Batman have basically always been the main act, even everyone will always be second fiddle to them. All Super powered characters will never be top dog over Superman, and all nonpowered or low powered characters will be in Batman's shadow. This makes them introducing new characters harder since they don't let them ever take the spotlight. It's hard for any new character get traction, but if they have live in the shadows of these guys and aren't allowed ever outshine them, it makes even worse.
I really like the points you made in your third paragraph, I think they're so important to understand and acknowledge, but it can be difficult to have a grown up conversation about them without people having a knee jerk reaction. Everything else you said is very good too, but just wanted to call that out specifically.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt There's trade offs to everything, I get the appeal of having stories focused on a endgame. It makes for a tighter story, and typically one team can see the project through so has a unified vision. You often see the animated and live action versions of stories shine because they can trim all the fat and go the high light reel of what adventures a chaarcter goes through. But the "filler' and lesser arc give us a chance to spend more time in these worlds, and get know these characters better. We get fewer of the smaller and quiet moments as result too because everything has a big deal or it doesn't make the cut.
I think comic is even being writen the way they are could do more of this if they opted to plan out like they used to. If they have a roadmap of story acrs leading to a certain finale, and have to basically comics treat each year of continuity like a season of a show, you can structure it in a way where you a big pay off fro following it the whole way thru. May be you have a bigger arc that goes thru a couple years before completing it. If people have a story they really want to tell usually those are well accepted, and the changes from them stick if it comes from something good.
Current comics have a couple things going against them, you have fans who are deathly allergic to changes of any kind. Spiderman brand New day is resetting things back to the version of Spiderman the team wanted at the time despite Peter had gone thru alot of growth prior to that. Unlike the staff of Marvel, most people have gotten into relationships that turn out well enough, and are well adjusted and accept this kind of growth. Even if you only read that one arc, you got a full experience out of it.
I feel the writers are really letting down the readers these days. The lack of planning, lack of respect, and desire tell whatever story they feel like regardless if it fits the character it's being stuffed on. What made classic characters so iconic is the they put the best people they could on books to tell best stories they could, that appealed to everyone, not just pandered to any one group.
The Story For the Man who has everything is easily one of the best Superman Stories. It was reused in the Supergirl series, but the point of the story wasn't lost with a gender swap, as it still works regardless. It's a great story that shows being a hero means making sacrifices, including simply being happy gets put second. (We see this Hulk vs Thor too, as Banner has have his perfect afterlife, as it puts a face to all sacrifices he's made as the Hulk, and has go back to life where he has none of it.)
Super heroes can explore so many aspects of the human condition through the various characters and settings that all fall under the umbrella of what they have going on. I can relate to character I neither share gender, race or species as. Instead of being so focused on the "message" checking boxes, and whatever else , focus on giving people something worth reading, a moment where you put them into something they wouldn't thought out if they didn't pick up your book. Comics didn't last this long operating the way they currently do, but they won't last much longer if they don't find a better way period, whatever it path it may be.
As a manga-only reader american super heroe comics feel like a chore. Each super heroe mythology feels like its own One Piece level read.
"Chore" is the perfect way I'd describe them too, if you're really into keeping up with the whole narrative and all the retcons/resets.
I, for one, disagree. I've been in this phase of valueing indie comics and manga more than super hero comics (and to some extent I do still prefer one over the other), but to say that comics are bad for things that are intrinsec to their narrative is a bit naive.
First of all, story telling is not about developing characters. Is about how you tell a story. And that involves the features of the media you work on. For comics, it's the situation in itself, the characterization of the characters, the rythm of the story, the usage of the panels (sizes, formats) and how they relate (sequentiality and simultaneity), how much is up to the text and how much is up to the drawings to tell. There are many examples of stories well regarded which the characters don't change by the end of it. American Psycho, Uncut Gems, No Country For Old Men, all of Batman Animated Series, many pulp chatacters like Conan and Zorro, many of the chatacters in Argentinian comics and Brazilian comic strips.
I'm not saying stories where characters change aren't powerful, they very much are, but that's just ONE type of story telling.
Let's get Batman Animated Series for example. Batman, as a character, doesn't change in the series at all. But the episodes don't suffer from that. On the contrary, is the main strenght of the show. We're there to watch how this character will react to the situations he is in, how he'll deal with his opponents and perils and how he will change the characters around him because of who he is. There's an episode where a blue collar guy is blackmailed by the Joker, and he is scared to death. He changes by the end of the episode confronting Joker, but Batman and Joker are still the same.
Another thing is that, by this point in history, this cyclic state of comics is well understood by writers, artists and readers. That's why publishers tend to separate the publishing order by runs. Understanding that: Is not simply who the characters are, but what these specific creators do with them. Reading Ditko Spider-man is not the same as reading DeMatteis and Zeck's Spider-man. In that manner, I like to say that comics reading is not continuous, but contextual. The context being the historical period the story was told and who was the creative team. And maybe in the next month, things will all be retconned by the next creative team. But inside that context, things really mattered. And the cycle is so regarded that there are stories all about that. All Star Superman is about how Superman, an icon who just seems to be eternal and indestructible, is going to die. How can the world and Superman deal with this? Or comics like Animal Man, which I won't spoil.
And about the same stories being told over and over. I think you're right, but there's also an argument there. As I said, different creators will do different things, or do the same things but differently. We've been telling revenge stories for ages, but they aren't less effective. We've been retelling Shakespeare over and over, but it still works. Because what really matters is the story telling: How these same stories are being told. Most run of the mill comics can tell these stories in uninspired ways, but there are those who can be very good at it, and for that they get highlighted and praised.
And for characters not changing, you'd be surprised how much they actually change, and that's what really pisses fans off, which I just find stupid. Sure these changes don't last much and are propably bound to disappear (which is why I don't understand fandom anger) but some don't. Jonathan Kent and Damien Wayne are some examples, or Miles Morales and Spider Gwen. Or Robin becoming Nightwing. Winter Soldier, Beta Ray Bill, Night King... The list goes on.
As for my finishing point, I think there's so much good stories inside super hero comics that is just a waste not to read them because in two months some other guy will write the chatacters and either toss previous ideas away and start fresh (which I actually find interesting) or just write in auto mode. And sometimes writers will bring back old ideas and create great stories out of that. For instance, the Immortal Hulk, one of the most well regarded comics of our age, roots the Hulk in horror monster comics like his debut in the 60's. And if the writer after Al Ewing kept that or not, I couldn't care less.
All that I'm trying to say is "to each, his own". There can still be told original stories with these charactees, they changing or not. Story telling is not a one way train, it has multiple ways to be done. Hop on the super hero bus when it seems interesting, enjoy the ride and hop off when it best suits you, but don't expect it to go the ways you want. Read more comics.
Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts, I think you've made some really interesting points that have given me something to think about. I do understand what you're saying - that the power of a story often comes from how it's told and the message it communicates. However, what I do find interesting is that the majority of the "good" examples you cite are stories that are told with a definitive beginning, middle and ending in mind. Like All Star Superman, which only has the impact it does BECAUSE Superman dies at the end. If that version of him was brought back, the story would lose its impact.
And you're right about stories being retold, like Shakespeare. But these are still defined, self contained stories. We don't see Hamlet the character being brought back for more adventures or stories, but what we see are re-tellings of the same story, which I can definitely be on board with (I really like your point about stories being retold with different historical contexts).
Dude, I absolutely cannot blame you for feeling the way you feel. I genuinely cannot stand anymore how character growth either gets erased, halted or outright retconned due to “story.” That’s why I love Invincible so much, his character got development, his story has ended, and his existence as a fictional being has been fulfilled. I’m convinced you can continue, start and end other stories for characters if it benefits your narrative, Marvel & DC don’t do that and I’m still shocked to this day.
Thanks we're definitely on the same page here! I agree with 100% of what you said.
The tapestry for these companies is so long and worn out that I respect it in a way. So many writers and artists have contributed to the lore and design of these characters that seeing the cyclical nature of these stories makes me happy that future generations will have a version of Superman or Spiderman to enjoy. That said, it is disappointing for longtime fans who continuously get let down by a lack of progression/stakes in the plot.
I'm impressed and slightly surprised the characters have lasted this long in their current form. But yes I almost feel like you're punished for being a long-term, genuine fan.
"Character development" also depends on a ending to the entire story. Like take Anakin Skywalker story it has a actually ending so he actually has actual character development.
While mangas are indeed a lot more cohesive and they offer a clear progression for their characters, they're not always planned out. Dragon Ball for example is known for this, as Akima Toriyama kept making things up as time passed, rather than planning out a long-term story ahead of time. There were also many individual moments when Toriyama wanted to end the story, but his editor pushed him to continue writing.
True, manga isn't 100% immune to the problems I described in the video, but the manga industry still handles them a lot better than DC/Marvel I'd say.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt Agreed.
i was thinking about creating a similar status quo, but i do see the problems now and i thank you for that, the only problem though is that i want my story to be adaptable,
What kind of story are you working on? A novel or a comic?
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt comic
FYI the manga industry is slowly adopting the comic format.
The biggest example is Dragon Ball. This manga ended in the 80s/90s. Yet because of continued demand, the author and company made a sequel series called Dragon Ball super. We see same comic tropes and repeating ideas here as well.
Multiverses, dead villains coming back to life, kids staying perpetually the same age (until recently), and a different artist writing the story. Overall the status quo continues as well.
Boruto is another example, as it continues the Naruto IP and also has comic tropes like aliens, time travel and other types of powers escalation.
Basically, the super popular manga IPs become permanent soap operas, comic western superheroes style. This is a new phenomenon but may increase in the future.
You're right... Sadly greed ends up corrupting creativity. Boruto seems just awful to me and I've heard lots of stories of manga editors trying to interfere with popular series to keep milking them. Hopefully they don't get too ruined... But we'll see.
And franco belgian comics? Don't forget it!
The comics code crippled the western comic market by making it be advertise as strictly kids stuff causing it to focus on superhero’s almost exclusively before the code comics of all genres flourished now you have to advertise your comic as a “graphic novel” to get non superhero hero readers to read it
That's such a shame, there was room for so much more creativity.
Its just sad that when people think of "comic books" they just think of cape heroes as a whole and not any other genres
Man don't you just wish that comic books can expand to be more than just superhero genre like for example why not have a comic book about sports or a cooking comic book or make a comic book based off the original books of the fairy tales that you read or even a Harry Potter comic or maybe a comic book about anatomy and so much more etc
@@JustinJulian-00 yeah sadly every time its tried it fails
@JustinJulian-00 The books of magic are the closest thing you're gonna get to a Harry Potter comic book
I think I prefer the multiverse option to the constant redirecting of characters but I’m very on board with that being pretty tired now too. Many of the tropes you’ve mentioned aren’t think why original stories are often my favourite, they typically have the most character development as once X has their superpower and has defeated X that tends to be it for quite a while.
Spider-Man into the spiderverse is personally one of the few examples of current DC/marvel avoiding many of the pitfalls that most of their last 10yrs of projects have fallen into. It manages to include quite a few of what have been poor storyline choices in other films without it feeling forced or desperate and that seems to be a pretty common take away.
Disney Star Wars’s more recent habit of people surviving something previously a 99.9% death rate or resurrecting characters is one of my biggest critiques of the franchise as a whole. Don’t think anyone minded Maul’s return as an exception to the rule and it was used to build up multiple character arcs and storylines but it seems like stabbed by a lightsaber is just a guideline now.
I can’t remember if you’ve touched on it but would love to hear your take on Blue Eye Samurai, one of the best things I’ve seen in the last few years.
Apart from it just being a fantastic rendition of a classic storyline (so far) it’s rightly been praised as an example of how to write not only an overpower character but a female overpowered character, something depressingly rare, particularly in the comic world of late.
My excitement for War of the Rohirrim has dropped rather a lot as it looks very much like it’s going to be a girl boss Mulan rip off but I hope to be proved wrong!
The thing about having a multiverse is that it does broaden the kind of stories you can do, but then you still eventually run out, and also it introduces a new problem of characters being constantly recycled since you can have alternate characters come in to replace lost ones.
I love Into the Spiderverse! One of the best recent comic movies in my opinion.
I haven't seen Blue Eyed Samurai but it's on my list to watch so hopefully I'll get round to making a video on it in the future!
Ironically the stories that often seem to stand out in superhero comic books tend to be the ones that have their own continuity, meaning a beginning and an ending, take for example Frank Miller's Batman timeline, Year One, The Long Halloween and Dark Knight Returns are from the same timeline and you see that time progresses in those stories, things change over time
I think that definitely proves that people do crave an ending, even if they don't realise it. Those are the stories that stand out for me as well.
Here is what made me enjoy comic books and get into them (even leaving a blasphemously enjoying them morr than manga over time). Stop treating them as one ongoing story. Marvel and DC are modern mythology. Greek mythos does not end after the illyad but that doesnt make it any less great. Christianity doesnt end with noah arc. In the same way, Superman wont end after the death and return. And what is interesting about them is how do these paragone and basically modern icons fit within certain narratives. It is so interesting to read about and inform yourself about something that feels grander than the mind of its creators. I'm certain superman and batman and all these heroes will not only outlast all of the seriee you mentioned. But also you and me wnd everyone currently on this planet. And how each incarnatiom this character tells you so much about the era that it was in and how he evolves and molds. To me that' what grabbed me the most about western comics.
honestly this video has put into words what I've felt for a long time.
Occasionally I can get back into DC when they do a big re-set with it's own continuity, such as new 52, or the upcoming absolute but that's only because they (breifly) have a clear world to follow, only to inevitably melt back into one continuity when flash or Dr Manhattan wreck the timeline :(
It's been bugging me for a while as well! I really can't stand the constant timeline resets and continuity reboots. In a way I find it slightly depressing seeing the characters trapped in an endless cycle, repeated across their multiverse.
Just the reason why i can't see myself getting too much into marvel or Dc. Take Spider man for example. He's never allowed to keep changing as a character, evolving, to fight new villains instead of green goblin or doc oc. He was supposed to have a family, married to Mj, maybe to retire at some point, but no. One more day retconned it all back to status Quo. When will it end? How many times will peter fight green Goblin? How many times will he wear Symbiote? How much longer this "will they won't they" Thing he has with Mj will last? Obviously the answer is all long as it brings money, but another question comes out of it... Why should the reader even care at this point?
Couldn't have put it better myself.
I believe that is a naive way of thinking what you just demonstrated is a common thing even outside of comic books. Yeah I agree that it is going to get repetitive put the issue I have is that's not a comic book problem
It's not exclusive to comics, but it's definitely a comic problem.
Don't sing the praises of manga, japan comics have their own problems in terms of cliche troupes and repetitiveness and long dragged out stories.
They absolutely do have problems too, it's just in the context of the specific things I spoke about in this video I think they do it better than comics. Maybe I'll do a separate video on manga in the future.
Exactly! I don't have an issue with either comics or manga, but people that 💩 on comics but 🍆 eat manga...kill me with that.
Just like that with comedy shows/cartoons like family guy and spongebob. Like I get the things they do is supposed to be funny/entertaining but what if it’s not anymore and it gets boring and repetitive after watching so many seasons… There’s nothing to watch for or any goal so you just drop it
All good things must come to an end. No matter how good a show is, if it refuses to end it'll eventually sour. Better to end on a high note.
Homie just perfectly described the average modern Spider-Man comic book experience😂
The struggle is real isn't it haha.
I don't think it's really fair to compare DC and Marvel to the entire Manga industry since a story like Naruto or Fullmetal Alchemist has no pressure to stay contained within a huge multigenre narrative with dozens of different writers and artists. The stagnation of characters and ever escalating stakes seem to be more of an issue of a connected universe where, for any character to age or develop, everyone has to age regardless of if the writer of a different story wanted to or not.
I think this is where manga stories have a clear edge over comic stories though. They're way more flexible and independent. And even within a huge interconnected universe, it's still possible to effect meaningful change. Like how things change in the MCU (we'll see how that ends up going though).
As someone who loves Spider-Man, I started reading the comic from the beginning and I loved Spider-Man, the comics were and still are special, and the more I read the more I found them better and better writing.
The problem is when I started the 2000s runs, they were not only the same plots but bad writing skills, bad character development, and suffering the character to just make him relatable and using the comic to send some stupid agendas instead of telling meaningful messages.
I'm aware of other comics with the same issues and there are still good separated stories but it's disappointing to see the character you love become a tool to serve some stupid agendas.
It genuinely makes me sad to see, because I feel like the characters we like are trapped in an eternal doom loop which they can't escape from.
There is some comfort in the floating timeline though.
I think what makes these stories so successful is this same trait. If Spider-Man had ended 50 years ago, he would be remembered in the same way that we remember Astro Boy right now. Yeah, we all know him, but how many people have actually sat down and watched some of it?
The never ending narrative can allow every generation to enjoy those characters. And while yes, those characters don't develop that much, they do still change to fit in with the current preferred vibe. Like in the 90s and the 2000s where everything was more edgy, those characters didn't change, but some of their traits were toned down and others up to fit what is wanted by the current generation (batman).
That's a fair and interesting point. You've made me think of characters like Dracula who have their stories retold over and over whilst changing with the times. Perhaps there is a place for stories and characters like this, but I think why it bugs me more specifically with comics is because of the over saturation of the stories and the commercialisation of them.
Oh my God comic books are made by different writers who all have freedom to do any they want
That why they are endless inconsistencies and rectons
Unlike manga that are made by the same writers through out
Yeah 100%, it's impossible to have one consistent vision because each writer has their own take and style.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2ptyeah because if the writers wants to do their own thing and then just make their own reboot bubble that doesn't have anything to do with the main one at all but then you can have someone else who has the same vision to continue on that work then someone else who just wants to do their own thing anyway
Give a character to one good writer, no crossover, and see what happen
Hellboy is perfect, you have a lot to read but at some point the story of hellboy ends, the alien and predator comics are good, the characters are always different 🤷🏻♂️ and the authorial comics are perfect if you don't like the "never ending cycle" type of comics
I've seen the first movie of Hellboy (was it a good adaptation?) but I haven't seen or read anything else.
Totally true that a lot of these mainstream comics are very 'sanitised' eg no one actually staying dead! I prefer darker things 😂
Lol me and you both, I like being made to feel some genuine emotion, rather than reading a superficial story.
Well, those problems are not inherrent to the Western comics and are not absent in manga. Goku was killed 3 times for example. Just sayan. 😂
Lol true manga definitely has its own problems too (and DBZ is a good example of those). But in general the industry isn't totally captive to these problems in the same way comics are, in my opinion.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt sure, I can agree with that
Then stop reading superhero comics and actually go look for the good stuff. Go read BONE.
I mean isn't that everyone been doing now?
its prob hard for people who dont like art or visual mediums to get into a visual medium. doesnt seem strange at all.
I like the art medium in general, it's just DC & Marvel's approach that I don't really like.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt unfortunate bcus some legends did stuff for them like Kirby and Perez.
This is unironically why I ceased even trying with comics.
Beginning, middle, end.
The only exception I can find is IDW's Transformers and apparently Sonic as well.
Pass that, I've moved fully to manga despite growing up very judging of the Japanese style.
Further than that, I'm probably already tired of the superhero genre itself. Even from before Marvel films turned into full slop kek.
Actually no sonic character doesn't change and also didn't they revive an old villain who was a platipus
@@zeanone9257 Are you sure you don't mean the previous run before the reset?
Though then again, Sega's contract is quite limited. They only let the Total War and COH teams go wild with their stuff.
@@l-nolazck-rn24 did they reset
@@zeanone9257 Yeah, about four or five times total. Dunno when each though.
what i really dont like is multiverse, it's confusing and inconsistent
I'm really not a fan of the multiverse as a concept.
It’s the reason why I prefer manga
Me and you both man.
Have you tried Daredevil?
I've watched the Netflix show, which I thought was awesome, but I haven't read the comics.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt I've heard the comics keep whatever character development matt has intact throughout the runs
Read some Vertigo imprint comics. That's where the good shit is.
I jotted the name down from someone else recommending them, I'll check them out!
Funny how i was just thinking about it this morning
Great minds think alike.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt Indeed 🥂
Meanwhile everyone is sleeping on european comics with their varied gorgeous art-style and their shorter style of storytelling which evolved from flagship characters like Tintin or the smurf to story-driven original series often shorter than manga.
Stop sleeping on those guys.
I guess they're more niche but I'd love to see them get a wider audience in the mainstream!
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt Maybe they don't unleash as much passion, since scantradder and subber did an amazing job making manga and anime accessible around the world.
This commitment always felt like true passion so idk maybe those comic didn't manage to capture the imagination in the same way.
But living in France I can tell you comic is a big industry here with hundred of books coming out each year, we have our own lame comicbook adaptations.
Also maybe relevant to the video wether it's the infinite loop of superhero comics or the generally pretty long run of mangas both these types of comic rely on big recognizable characters being popular for at least twenty years (and manga character relevance like the DBZ cast seems to be unending).
While our local Spider-Man and Naruto would be The Smurf or Tintin some have stopped coming out for a long time and it's rare a new flagship character emerges as the industry is centered around authors mostly. Which is good for the quality of the art and storytelling but not the best game plan for export and recognition.
Maybe it just me but i don't really like comic or manga
Fair enough they aren't for everyone.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2ptit's either that or you're not satisfied with the writing that both of them makes this is why you're better off writing your own thing anyway
5:12 this ai generated
It's fan art, not AI generated.
9:23 Newrutu? 😂😂😂😂, sorry dude just gad to, good video anyways, literally said my mind. Only DC and Marvel comic I ever read, was Injustice, the end 😂😂😂
Thanks! I've read Injustice too but I hate how biased the writers were towards Batman in that story, it had a lot more potential.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt that went over my head tbh, didn't think they were being biased though. Superman was spiraling, I didn't see how it had anything to do with the writers being biased 😅😅
@@ecoist9057 Batman was the only hero to not be corrupted, even though he is the one DC hero who is constantly on edge...
@ecoist9057 It completely ruins Superman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, and basically any non-Batman related character.
@@ChadBenjamin I honestly just felt like they were victims of circumstances. They were kinda the most powerful and this sought to bring peace to the world, even if it meant by force, which is what tipped them over the edge. But as batman and his companions were the most human, they could see things from another point of view and saw that humanity was not something that could be controlled, but that's just my take anyhow
This is why I prefer the animated adaptations. The DCAU, Avengers EMH, and the X-Men cartoons ended their stories, and created a complete canon.
The animated cartoons are great. I heard the new x men one on Disney is really good too.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt
It is. It just has a breakneck pace and as a continuation of the 90's series it has some continuity errors that contradict the original.
also Arkham knight
Only problem is they rarely follow the storylines of the books and tone down the source material
My problem with comic books is that they have to continuously escalate the stakes.
The Flash went from running at the speed of sound to running fast enough to negate the concept of time.
The threats went from 'destruction of the city' to 'the destruction of the infinite universes and /or reality itself'.
I wish they'd keep it simple and just explore interesting concepts each week instead of the ever increasing complexity that ends up crushing them.
On a side note, if you lived in a world in which superheroes existed, only a mad person would commit a crime, or white collar crime would skyrocket
I absolutely agree with you. Annoyingly I thought the same just after I finished recording this video, otherwise I would have included it in this. But yeah the power creep is a very real problem.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt 'power creep'! that's a good name for it.
So true hell, it's make new creators worried about power scaling
I agree. Though that is also a problem with like 80% of Shonen manga.
This is kind of the reason I have with jean grey and also why I hate the concept of omega level mutant .
Every time jean grey gets a phoenix power up they force all the other characters to suddenly become double omega power level .
I would rather have a hero universe where the powers were low and people struggled
So great that more people are saying this, indie comics have been grabbing my attention more than Marvel and DC because the character development and lack of conclusions just aren't there in the big 2
People who hate comics and pretend superhero comics are the only ones are no different to people who hate video games and pretend shooter games are the only ones.
I really hope indie comics or other publishers grow big enough to seriously challenge Marvel and DC. I think the industry needs a real shake up.
@@petermj1098 Hopefully in the next few years or decades that the Superhero genre is already dead and more other genres like horror or sci-fi thrive
@@petermj1098Just sad that people only think of comics as just one genre (cape comics) and not the vast amount of others
I've never read manga, only comics, but this video really makes me want to read a manga!!
I definitely recommend trying some, there are tons of options.
Or better yet just make your own comic book as long as you don't get copyrighted then I would rather hear these stories from you then from whatever big corporation brings out
@@JustinJulian-00 I always thought if I could draw I would love to create a comic style story.
Read Chainsaw Man. Perfectly represents the kind of storytelling that can takes advantage of the medium
Chainsaw man is good but I wouldn't recommend it as your first maybe like your third. I'd recommend however, Sakamoto Days (Manga, a retired assassin trying to live the family life gets pulled back into the game) , Player Manhwa (Dude reads a comic says he would do better than the main character against the comics strongest character so God decides to put him into said world and blesses him with his sword, however dude is just a guy with no friends and gets bullied), Blame (manga, it's an unpolished masterpiece imo with little dialogue mostly scenery, The world has transformed into one gigantic City That's slowly getting bigger. Robots are hunting the last remaining human's. The main character is a genetically altered human looking for a human with a specific gene capable of turning off the robots), Jujutsu Kaisen (sorcerers fighting demonic curses born from human malice and suffering), One Punch Man (A superhero so powerful he's bored with life because nothing grants him a challenge, focus is actually on other characters getting stronger and trying to reach his level) , Song Of The Night Walkers( psychological romance about a boy falling in love with a vampire with some action, buts not the main theme).
I can agree with this video. I am done with DC & Marvel Comics because they do not give their characters the ending they deserve. The companies only see them as cash grabs. For example, Nightwing was supposed to marry Starfire, and someone else would have led the Titans, but Bat Editorials took Nightwing back from the Titans, causing the writers to scrap that idea. This would have ended up ruining Dick Grayson's character in the later comics. The same can be said for Spiderman because of that garbage One More Day storyline where they erased Peter's marriage with MJ simply because the writers think the audience won't relate to a Married Spider-Man. It was a stupid decision because they ruined his character development. As someone who loves Superheroes, I am tired of DC & Marvel not giving those characters any proper closure.
This is why I prefer reading Novels. They usually give the protagonists the ending they've always deserved. I love the ending of Deathly Hallows as Harry completes his mission and his conflict with Voldemort comes to a fitting conclusion. Heck, even Indie Comics/Graphic Novels & Manga are way better than DC & Marvel.
Couldn't agree with you more. It actually ends up feeling depressing, at least to me, seeing comic characters constantly unsatisfied and having their progression taken away from them. I love books but I don't have as much time to read them nowadays as I used to.
Do you blame them for seeing the characters as cash grabs? They need money fella
@@mrgumelo4067 I get that they want Money, but they kept ruining those characters again and again. It was getting tiresome.
I think one of the reasons why comic industry has been on the decline and manga has been blooming is just this. No meaningful progression. That's why the only comics I've been reading last couple of years have all been indie stuff. They actually feel like real stories. And if you really want to read superhero stories there are countless superheroes indie comics out there.
I'd like to read more indie comics but I guess it's hard to know where to start without a recommendation since they aren't as mainstream. I hope the indie side of the industry grows larger though.
I love Comic Books and Superheroes but I completely agree with every point made about this video.
I’ve had discussions with other comic fans about the big issues with Marvel & DC and yes, we all agree that “The Big Two” are either being too corporate or creatively restricting with their popular IP’s.
I have read other comics by different publishers and genres and I think they deserve just as much attention.
I'd love to see more indie and niche comics get some love in the mainstream. I have some friends who are die hard DC / Marvel fans but I just can't bring myself to get into them.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2ptman I think it would be great if indie developers can make a comic that will challenge the expectations that we've been getting in marvel and DC for years now like you know a character that actually Stays developed your villains are allowed to develop as well like killing some of them off or even redeem some of them and then give them the endings that they actually deserve
Now i totally agree with the capitalization of characters in American comics and how they can be obnoxious... AND VERY HARD TO READ
BUT as a hardcore comic fan... I have a different perspective.
this is a BLESSING IN DISGUISE because of all the GREAT STORIES and runs that have been told out of this medium .
Ive read SUPERMAN runs from the 70s to the 2010s. And they both be GREAT, not because they do the same thing to Superman... But they're able to do in SOMETHING ENTIRELY NEW WITH HIM
Of course it can be confusing sometimes because of the these characters are famous and they need to be held up to a status quo.
However, there's FAR from a lack of CREATIVITY, heroes going to NEW WORLDS, facing DIFFERENT STRUGGLES.
Some of CAPTAIN AMERICA'S GREATEST STORIES wouldn't have happened if he died off world war II
Or BATMAN if he had stayed in the 60s and died off with the Adam West era
Say what you will, but these characters wouldn't be what they are without different people cooking different ideas in the kitchen .
So yeah it can be difficult, but I wouldn't let that stop you from exploring more... Just my opinion bro
Your examples are flawed since they're both in the 20th century. With Spider-Man, he changed and grew but ended up regressing. From teenager to adult to married man, but now he is stuck as unmarried, twenty something whose life will always be in shambles. Any change is temporary and the most innovation you can get is a new Spider person to add to a never ending list. A series that isn't meant to end will eventually have to stagnate.
@@DeBean970 I NEVER said that this was the BEST THING to happen to COMICS. Sadly not every character has benefited from this keeping to the status quo, especially Spider-Man. BUT I can tell you some of his BEST STORIES have been told almost 60 YEARS AFTER HIS CREATION.
I'm sorry to break it to you pal, ALTHOUGH I LOVE SPIDER-MAN, he's not ALL of comics
Almost ALL CHARACTERS have had their down slopes one way or another. But that doesn't mean there are no good stories left telling.
If ALL the FLAWS and MISS COMMINGS of comics are summed up in this one video, then what is the POINT OF THESE CHARACTERS ?!?
Thanks for sharing your perspective! I totally get what you're saying, and I agree that comics have produced a ton of great stories with passion and creativity baked in. I do still think though after a while it gets stale seeing the same characters struggle time and time again without any chance to ultimately triumph, but to each their own.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt of course man, thanks for commenting, I like the ideas you put in the video.
It’s more like there can be good stories in spite of this problem and not because of it.
This is why I prefer reading "elseworlds" one-off stories, which aren't tied to the history and continuity of mainstream comic series, or limited mini-series. For example, things like:
- Spider-Man: Life Story
- Spider-Man: Spider's Shadow
- Superman: Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?
- Superman & Batman: Generations, An Imaginary Tale
- Superman: Red Son
- Superman: Space Age
- Superman: Secret Identity
- the Earth One line of comics
Then there are comics series that do progress and have a definitive end, such as:
- Invincible
- Irredeemable
Elseworld stories are mostly how I've consumed comics too to be honest. Your list there is awesome, I've read some but not all of those stories so thanks for the recommendation!
I also went through a big phase of reading DC fanfic stories.
Agree with you manga is so much better!!
Thanks! A part of me thinks that comics will eventually lose out to manga unless they somehow adjust and adapt. Who knows though.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2ptI am really interested in comics (though tbh I've only read elseworld stories like Red Son and All-Star from DC/Marvel, because surprise surprise, they end lol) and there are several things people miss about the industry. While DC and Marvel may seem big, they are actually doing fairly poorly compared to other publishers. The market for comics is still thriving in the US despite what it may seem on the surface (most statistics don't make a difference between manga, American or European comics, but even American companies outside of "The Big Two" are doing pretty well).
The reason DC and Marvel still has cultural and financial relevance is their movies and shows, the companies have several wings that all depend on each other in some way and that's why they are unlikely to adapt or go away in the forseeable future lol
To everyone who dislike comics: Start to read Manga, Band Dessinées (Francophone comics) and independent American comics.
@@yggdrasil2 thanks for the suggestions!
@@yggdrasil2 That's very interesting. I'd heard that DC/Marvel comics have been struggling in recent years, but because I'm not really a major comic fan I don't know the details. To be honest I think it's a good thing - the industry needs a bit of a shake up.
Someone had to spill the bean, finally.
I've been chewing on this for a while!
You have no idea how much a relate to this sentiment, this is the main reason why it’s hard for me to invest in stories anymore a lot of works of fiction has this problem it’s not just comics almost everything video games,tv,movies etc. I wish stories could be true stories again reaching a natural conclusion instead of getting milked for profit only to end horribly with unresolved conflicts and ruined characters transformers 5 is a big one that comes to mind, instead of making a story that continues what was setup in the last film and concluding things paramount wanted to create a cinematic universe that made no sense 🤦♂️ and don’t even get me started on the sonic franchise the characters are essentially ageless immortal beings that can’t change the status que. Luckily we still have a few gems like league of legends arcane that’s gonna be concluding this year but I was surprised when I seen fans complaining about how the show is ending with season 2 so it just shows the people just want to consume a series endlessly without end
I can't wait for Arcane! True there'll probably always be people who want a series to keep going but I think that's on the writers or the person with the creative vision to stand up and be bold enough to give their definitive ending. I agree with you that sadly money is ruining a lot franchises by endlessly milking them.
I understand and sometimes agree with the criticism that superheroes never undergo enough character growth. However, as a fan who's obsessed over continuity, I'd like to challenge this assertion somewhat. Instead of a floating timeline, I'd like to suggest a "glacier's pace" timeline for how things really work. Just look at one character as an example. If time doesn't move in universes like DC, then how did Robin grow and age into Nightwing?
Dick Grayson is usually canonically stated to be 8 years old when he started as Robin all the way back in 1940. Then he leads the Teen Titans as Nightwing in the eighties, meaning obviously he still has to be some kind of teenager during that time. Going into the nineties, he seems to be a legal adult working solo. So in the late eighties, he must be somewhere between 17 and 18. Doing some rudimentary math, I deduced that an entire decade of publication history can equate roughly to...two years in a character's life. And thus the DC Universe (and I'm going to assume Marvel) inched forward this way all the way up till the early 2010s. However, I don't think things work that way anymore because the 2010s became the decade of reboots. First the New 52 and then Rebirth. About every five years, the statue quo resets so hard that Bruce Wayne literally becomes a younger man each time. If that's happening to him, then his kids must not be getting to age anymore either.
I believe Batman was the most reliable benchmark for how the heroes grew in their respective lives. Because of always wanting to cater to moviegoing audiences in this age, characters aren't allowed to grow in the same way they could when they were less mainstream. Thus I posit we won't see Damian Wayne grow in the same way we saw Dick. But I hope some writers some day are able to advance continuity while still honoring what came before.
I was mostly thinking about the constant resets, as you described. I guess the floating timeline has a kind of "range". So some characters can age within this range and assume new roles, but other characters are stuck at a fixed point in their lives.
Those are some fair points. I for one love comic books since the vast majority I read are about Good overcoming evil. They have morals, good characters, and great stories. No matter how cynical I get, I can count on a story uplifting my spirits.
The power levels make sense in individual stories and can be easy to get into if you look up a guide for particular series.
As for end points I take certain issues at “the end” For example Amazing Spider-Man ended for me when Ben took over the mantle while Peter went to start a family with MJ. Then I just read Spider Girl from that point forward.
I get where you're coming from - I do really like that aspect of comic books of good overcoming evil, and creating heroes we can look up to and aspire to be. Especially in the cynical modern landscape, it's important to keep telling stories like this.
For me, it's read whatever you want. Just have fun with it. My best advice is to follow your favorite writer rather than favorite character.
That's completely fair advice!
I like your video but you are a bit too hung-up on the false dichotomy between manga and what you call Western comics (but you are just talking about superhero comics from DC/Marvel). I know you admit to just be talking about these two companies but you still use the terms interchangibly, thus adding to this false conflict. Not only are there companies in America and Europe that produce comics that are similar to manga in their structure, creative control and diverse genres, DC/Marvel used to do that up until somewhat recently! I know they are mostly known for their superhero stuff but they used yo make a lot of Westerns, horror, comedy, fantasy and even straight-up slice of life before.
I really implore you to start reading comics from Image, Dark Horse, Fantagraphics, Oni Press, Magnetic Press or even Vertigo, DC:s now discontinued sublabel for more creator-run series. Great stuff!
EDIT And as i've said elsewhere, DC and Marvel comics are currently unsuccessful (likely for the reasons you bring up here, but I'd add their outdated release system) compared to their competitors.
Hey it's a fair point - and also very interesting that DC/Marvel used to make comics in other genres! I'm hoping indie and alternative publishers get more traction in the West, because even though I'm sure there are some amazing stories I feel like DC/Marvel have a stranglehold on the mainstream audience.
Thanks for those recommendations you gave, I'll check them out!
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt Again, they are not overly successful in their fields financially! It's mostly about the cultural power. But thanks for taking the time to read my comments!
@@yggdrasil2 I appreciate you commenting and engaging with the videos :)
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt Thnx! Appreciate your videos.
Because DC and Marvel unfortunately matter the most in the comic book industry. I can go into a book shop and look at the comics section and it'll be filled with their superheroes. A small percentage of the books will be from third parties. And with their lack of presence in other media compared to the Big 2, they're practically invisible to the layman.
It makes most of their heroes out to be naive and hypocritical failures that let the villains and anti heroes win and let more people die and suffer left and right
Yep completely agree with this. It's why we see people constantly asking why doesn't Batman kill Joker for example. Having a no kill rule is ok in theory, but when you have someone as ludicrously evil as the Joker is now it starts to become absurd.
To be honest with you man if I were in Batman shoes then I would immediately kill the joker as soon as I come across him and you know what I agree on Jason Todd idea of doing so if anything he said he's not going to kill any other Batman villains but the joker because the joker himself is beyond redemption anything Batman has said to him or anything that he does with him The joker is unwilling the change no matter how many times Batman spares him because sometimes you gotta realize that some people don't even want to change anyway or even want redemption to begin with because you either make a sacrifice to save billions of people or you spare one irredeemable villain to let more innocent lives die because you can still be a morally good person while sacrificing one irredeemable life to save more innocent lives do you agree on this because sometimes the no-kill rule doesn't always work all the time
@@JustinJulian-00 I remember after I watched Batman Under the Red Hood for the first time I was so frustrated by the ending. Jason was 100% in the right.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt I also think they are very inconsistent in their messages when it comes to forgiveness and pacifism versus violence and revenge . And are never called out on their hypocrisy and self righteousness much and toxic messages.
@@JustinJulian-00 the key to beat joker would be like in hush, you get to him when he don’t expect it or in Batman beyond when he psychologically messed with the joker. But it’s also if you are in a mental state like Batman, if you kill joker you could end up killing other people that aren’t joker.
I still think it’s bizarre Spectre never punishes joker because apparently joker is insane, and therefore not responsible.
I love DC comic books but I do also think that other comic books besides Marvel should get a time to shine
Yeah I'd like to see the industry diversify and have lots more publishers come up into the mainstream.
To be absolutely fair, many of these problems aren’t new for DC and Marvel, like by the mid 80’s Captain America had died and come back to life 4 times
Well you know they are very stupid as they can just simply end the story then make a new one that in different universe with the same character but they have more freedom as they are not constraints with the baggage of the previous story and background and that is why the Ultimate universe is very loved(mostly Spider-Man as most of other super heroes are just horrible person and i have no idea why they make it that way) specially with the reset of the timeline with older Peter with a loving family with MJ (take that Zeb Well with his BS) and give a idea of what if some heroes and Villain are in the different side of the team
There’s another thing you should’ve mentioned is the fact that the stories of marvel and dc characters technically have ended already. Stories like dc’s kingdom come or old man Logan and avengers twilight have the conclusion of these characters stories and the rest we see continue in the main stream is just pointless filler to keep the characters relevant.
It's a fair point - that we actually have stories we could use to give certain characters satisfying endings, but instead of letting them rest they are just endlessly brought back and milked.
I like series that are simple and easy to read and start at issue one, invincible, hellboy, spawn same thing with manga and how it’s just one series start at dragonball chapter one and that’s all you need
Same I like a fixed story with a good ending. Invincible is great and I hope we see more adult animated series coming out, I'm really looking forward to Arcane season 2.
The status quo is one of the things preventing me from getting invested anymore. Like for example I was really invested in the idea of Superman & Wonder Woman being in a relationship. Which has always been teased throughout their history but they could never go for it because of the status quo. They tried it for a time and it was actually great but because the nostalgia fans wanted what they grew up with, we eventually returned back to the same old boring status quo of Lois. They can't try anything new and exciting and even when they do, they get nervous and just retreat back to what is familiar.
Yep 100%. I went through a phase of reading lots of fanfic because I love the characters but I find their comic stories frustrating.
Ya, i can tell you right now. imo image comics is the future of the industry. Image comics is what the industry should be like
The guys who published Invincible right? I'd love to see more content come from them. I really feel like DC and Marvel will eventually decline unless they adapt, although they're so large and popular it's hard to imagine when it might happen.
@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt ya they make way more than superhero stories, but i would be DC that collapse first
Man, the points you made were spot on all my reasons to dislike Marvel and DC (and even some Image) comic books. I was a big comic book enthusiast growing up, bought Spider-man and other titles monthly for years, but eventually it struck me: "hey, this is going nowhere! There's no actual change, no endgame plan and they are starting to recycle plotlines."
This was some years ago and since then, the more I think about it, the more I dislike this approach. All the things you said, including the comparison with manga, I've been saying for some years.
Good video, it's nice to see someone else feels the same way!
Also, about the cultural impact and the profit, I believe they could have ended these comic books years ago and still get the money exploring the brand. Think Sandman, The Walking Dead or other titles. One doesn't need a comic book to be "eternally ongoing" to profit from it's characters. Specially today, when these characters generate more profit from movies than from their original medium.
Thank you glad you enjoyed the video! Your journey with comics is very similar to my own, I remember as a kid watching the Spiderman Saturday morning cartoon and I loved the character so much. When I got older I tried to get into comics but I became increasingly frustrated with the format.
Im speak spanish, i use chatgpt to translate cause im lazy:
what I like about the American comic format is the fact that the characters are more like archetypes that each writer adapts to the needs of their story (while maintaining a certain essence). Think about how Batman and Superman were originally cheap stories for kids, and they ended up in gems like *All Star Superman* or *Batman: Ego*. This recycling helps writers when they don’t have many pages to elaborate; for example, you don’t need to show Batman’s origin because everyone already connects with the character, so you can go straight into the comic’s plot.
I think these comics would work better if each story were standalone, unless they work well within continuity; characters like the Punisher don’t work in a universe where there are 1,838,747,464 superheroes who could contain him and put him in jail in less than an hour. I think that’s why I really liked DC’s approach of making movies like *The Batman* or *The Joker*.
Yeah good points - it's interesting how the stories you mention all have great endings. I love All Star Superman, and it's so great precisely because it's told as a standalone story with a definitive ending.
Hello. Reading comics is only one of my hobbies so I don't spend much time doing it. These days I mostly read indie comics because they are if nothing else original. Also I love webcomics because you can get them for free! And some of them are pretty good.
Did you read Massive-verse by Image? It basically says fuck no to any status quo. Not much long-term stakes though. Also it has some thoughts on modern super heroes. I mean there is Rogue Sun who likes punching people and since he's doing it might as well punch people who deserve it. Entire Radiant team is stellar tbh.
I haven't - but it sounds awesome! I've already added a lot of great sounding series to my reading list based on the recommendations from you guys, so I'll add this in as well. Thanks!
I think it's the different in business models
With manga the IPs are the stories or the manga itself, and the characters are simply parts of it
But for comics, the IPs are the CHARACTERs, while the stories are the background, the lore or anything that defined that character. So as long as the character are popular enough you can milk it forever with the products made in its name, rebrand it, rewrite it, have it in another universe, make origin movie about it then remake it a few years later.,,
It's very capitalistic in its nature as it's for business purpose, like all commercial IP, Pepsi, Cocacola, KFC etc
The manga industry does have business purpose in its mind, but the fundamental is still telling a story to sell it to your audience, not creating characters as IPs.
Good point! This reminds me of something one of the Marvel actors said (can't remember who) - saying that the draw for MCU movies now is the characters not the actors themselves (very roughly paraphrasing).
Manga is what comics should do. Manga has an beginning, middle, and ending to the story.
Even My Hero Academia a superhero manga does what comic books should do have an actual ending to the story.
Buddy comics books have endings they called indie comics if you want comics books series with ending stop reading marvel/DC and instead read image or dark horse
I share the same opinion!!!!!!!! One of my favorite super hero teams is the X-Men. And I don't want to keep reading comics where the X Men are always oppressed and there is no hope for them.
We think alike! Yeah I'm 100% with you, it honestly gets depressing.
I good future video topic would be character flandarization it goes hand in hand with the floating timeline concept
Oooh I like this. Thank you for the recommendation that's great! I'll add that to my backlog for sure.
Personally it doesn’t bother me too much because it’s allowed me, my father, and my grandfather to all grow up reading a version of Superman that we can connect to. My grandpa read Superman fighting the nazis and standing against the KKK. My father was there when Superman died saving the world from doomsday.
Then I had to put up with the god awful new 52 Superman until we got superman and his son going on adventures and now superman and the super family.
I prefer it because it creates a long tapestry that have different eras to explore and read about.
But I understand people not being into that. My friends who prefer manga like watching the movies and cartoons but will just ask me about the comics because they don’t want to play catch up with decades of continuity. So in those cases I just recommend the stand alone books that don’t need context. My friend loves the authority comic book because it’s a quick 30 issues story with a beginning middle and end.
That's totally fair, and it's nice you have a family lineage like that of you all enjoying the same character through the ages.
Dc and marvel overuse Spider-Man and Batman
Gotta milk their most popular characters to the max.