Q&A section: 50:18 Symbolism isn't moral 53:27 (Question starts) 53:57 Inside VS Outside of an identity (including an ethnic identity) 56:46 Meaning of representations of Christ with VS without a beard 1:00:40 Why represent all this artistically if we can conceptually explain it? 1:02:14 St. Paul (the thorn in his side) 1:06:45 Further reading (the question specifically asks for recommended reading outside the tradition) 1:11:06 (Question starts) 1:12:00 Advice to priests on how to make their church building more beautiful
Jonathan may have been rather vague about the thorn in relation to St Paul, but I did not take it that he was accusing him of an ongoing sin. I do think you should not speak of it as "St Paul's sin".
@@lisaonthemargins It's not clear what Jonathan was intending to say. People have their different notions of what St Paul's thorn was. I guess Jonathan may have been referring it to the difficulties endured in our mortal state since the Fall, as signified by the ground producing thorns. I have always tended to see it as some physical ailment, but I have heard it suggested it might have referred to some person at enmity with Paul, or some other troublesome fact. St Paul probably had some ongoing physical problems as a result of all the beatings he endured, and the various other hardships he suffered in his care for the Church. There is, of course, a possibility of a measure of penance in his sufferings for the harm he had done to Christians before his conversion. I am not sure if any theologians Eastern or Western have written of that possibility, but, whatever all the factors involved were, St Paul knew that he was in a sense making up some of the sufferings of Christ for the Church.
@@yurijedi49 Gregory of Nyssa - The Life of Moses, Saint Ephrem the Syrian - Hymns on Paradise, and he also mentioned Maximus the Confessor, but I'm not sure what book he meant (maybe On the Cosmic Mystery of Jesus Christ will be relevant? although I don't know, didn't read it yet). After that it's Matthieu Pageau - Language of Creation, Cabasillas - A Commentary on the Divine Liturgy.
Every time I hear him speak. It's like hes just pointing out things I see plain as day. But only after he says it. Like a sommelier, he put the articulation of what I can taste but not put words to describe.
This channel is a salve. Each lecture puts my perspective back to center. Rather than feel annoyed by cultural shifts, trends, and scandal -- they become part of a huge narrative.
(@ 1:07:45) The manner in which Jonathan "the manner in which" Pageau talks about the writings of the Church Fathers tugs my heart towards them and towards liturgy... May this year be the year ❤️☦️
How are we not paying big money to hear these? It’s baffling, but it also gives a ton of hope. I’m so glad that this is accessible. Thank you Jonathan.
I've watched your channel for quite some time, and it seems to me you've come a long way with your public speaking and laying out of information. Happy New Year to you and your family!
this was sooo awesome Jonathan. I hope you will start unpacking also the spiritual and mystical part of Christianity. You would love the books from this modern mystic Sophrony. He integrates so much of what you talk about symbolism in spiritual practice of prayer and its ontological and creative meaning. ❤️😉
I am glad you mentioned the artist that put Mary in the black. When you said that, I received a vision, along with a confirming wisdom and direction. I could not find Mary in the black online, so I drew what I saw. Its also exactly what I was needing, made me weep and was very meaningful and precious. I could write a whole library about it, and since I am not allowed to write, I guess I live it. Something for you to consider, when we live our witness, which is our life. When we are not allowed to live that life in the earth, makes us weep among other things.
Several years ago I had a vivid dream of an encounter with Christ. His left eye was blown out, as if He had been punched in the eye....yet when He smiled His teeth were perfect. Psalm 34:20
Excellent speech! Have you thought about mmaking a video crash course on the Orthodox fathers? Like intros with their basic points and references to modern symbolism if possible
I just realized how the symbolic fact Jonathan mentions at around 54:00 relates to a fact of theology, namely the Essence/Energy distinction and St. Gregory Palamas. Jonathan mentions how every identity has an "inside" and an "outside". I see the "inside" Jonathan mentions as relating to the Essence of God, which makes the God's identity cohere (i.e. what makes God one and what makes the Persons of the Trinity one and cohere into one God). On the other hand, I see the "outside" he mentions as relating to the Energies of God, which are the identity of God externally working in the world/moving out into the world. Anyone else agree with this connection?
I always thought Jonathan is our Orthodox Jordan Peterson, but now I realized I listen to him way more than JP and he explains things that are way more important not just to Orthodox community.
I'm sorry if it's too personal of a question, but why isn't your brother Orthodox, and what is he? Didn't expect to hear that, specially after buying his book haha (hadn't read it yet) That aside, thank you for your work!
About half way in... that laboratory patreon video is ringing... I want to talk Heraclitus (first wrote the word Logos and talked of tension of the bow string as well as wrestlers) and martial arts with you... Peace be with you.
The Beardless Christ in early Roman images is also due to the fact that the Holy Shroud carrying the first true Icon of Christ became known later, after it was retrieved from its hidden place in Edessa.
Hey Jonathan, I've been watching your videos for a bit now, and I really enjoy them. I was wondering if you would consider doing a commentary on the 1980s series "Neon Genesis, evangelion"? It's somewhat of a cult classic from the era before Japanese animation became heavily Americanized. It uses some of the most interesting symbolism, and story telling I've ever seen in any sort of media. It's a story written by a man who had just came out of a 4 year depression seriously contemplating suicide, and it does such a good job of articulating the emotions of finding meaning. A quick TH-cam search comes up with many videos from very small channels that have 200k, to 1 million views, so I believe it would be in your interest from a business point of view as well
Should add that it is pretty much a must to watch with English subtitles as opposed the English dub, as with the later, the entire soundtrack is butchered completely. It's been recently put up on Netflix, but I'd still recommend finding it on a dodgy streaming site, as there has been changes to the soundtrack in the Netflix version due to copyright issues.
Thank you Jonathan for i use your explanations to describe something i didnt have the vocabulary to do it. I mostly use it to talk to literalist interpretators of the Bible specially Genesis. Although im still a Baptist you made me orthodox sympathyzer. I watch your videls regulary although i think you can improve the production a bit and shorten them up. Thank you.
I haven't watched the whole video yet but he caught my attention with the peter/Paul imagery. I haven't thought this out at all but the othrodox and the catholics seem to be a peter/Paul scenario
Hymns on Paradise by St. Ephrem the Syrian, The Life of Moses by St. Gregory of Nyssa, St. Maximus the Confessor, and something unintelligible at 1:09:44.
Would really love a talk on Mary Magdalene I think there is a lot to unpack from popular heresies with Dan Brown to the relic of the skull and the grotto of the Sainte Baume which is also the supposed tomb of Solomon's architect 'maitre Jacques'... Also the Noli me tangere and Christ thought to be the gardener... Would love to hear your thoughts on all this if that makes sense !
I am curious to see the reactions of Orthodox Christians and other fans of Jonathan's work to the following claim. All references to the Heavens being seen open in scripture refer to spiritual visions, including the Second Coming of Christ. It is a spiritual rapture, not a physical event. Peace be unto you all.
Orthodox Christians do not believe in a "rapture" because there is no such thing in Scripture and no such thing has ever been claimed by the Church Fathers. The Greek word for rapture is ἔκστασις or "ecstasy" which is often translated as "amazement" and never refers to some physical removal of any persons.
@@thenowchurch6419 I think protestants would have an easier time reading Scripture, firstly if they turned to the Church Fathers to explain, but also importantly if they understood their own vocabulary!
@@MikhalisBramouell Right again. There needs to be a movement, especially among protestants, to respect and love intellect and higher education along with faith and scripture.
@@MikhalisBramouell about "rapture".I am orthodox(North Macedonia) but when i first hear that term on the net i cant understan it .Can you explanie me what they mean by that term?i listened talks where its mensed that we dont belive in that"rapture" and hear how protestant so pasioantly talk about it and i miss the the term all together.Thanks+
Me Greek Orthodox Church has what looks like to be God, with a triangle around his head and sphere in his hand at the apex of the dome. Any insights into this?
What about if we created God in our own image? And the image we created of God evolved as we evolved spiritualy through the ideal of God's image we have created and wich we continue creating. And that doesen't mean God doesn't exist. Maybe we are just not enought developed to reach the complete truth of the face of God. Or God whait for more development of us to manifest more of Himself. Even tough I am christian. I don't think the Bible is perfect and I have problems agreeing whit the phrase at the end of the Bible that say that nothing have to be taking of or added in the Bible. The Bible was assambled by man. Apocryphas was part of the old catholic Bible. And other "lost scriptures" existed befor they assambled the Bible. Even tought I think the essential of the message of Christ is in the Bible.
Did you overdub your speech? Because your talk is very clean, but it switches back and forth when you're taking questions. If so, I'm impressed with your devotion to it!
At the beginning, you can hear an added background noise, first someone typing and than sexual moaning or some crap. Made me laugh. "Here are Channel Happy Fall" we have implemented the perfect "plausible deniability" algorithm in a undertone voice(s), automatically, with sexual innuendos with the slogan of our sponsor! McDuddys ....... 6 months later... Everyone has a McDuddy dildo hat on .... "I just knew I needed a McDuddy Dildo Hat! I been unknowingly wanting one my entire life! Thanks McDuddy! I conceived my last son at McDuddys :) and we named him after our favourite place in the world! McDuddys!!!!!! He will be the coolest baller kid and eat nothing but McDuddys till he is old enough to enrole as McDuddy University!!!! Winning~!
I think "Idolatry" is the better term here....we are not supposed to make graven images. The Word Of God tells us about reality, not what some dude drew on an old scroll. Also why do they make Jesus look like a northern european? lol
Stomping Out Satan Yes, the Bible depicts God commanding Moses to place graven images of the Cherubim over the Ark of the Covenant and depict them on the curtains surrounding the Holy of Holies in His own Tabernacle just a couple chapters after recording the giving of the Ten Commandments. Context is everything, and this comment of yours suggests you do not understand the Scriptures or the context of Jewish and Christian use of images in worship spaces in the OT and NT period as well as you think you do.
@@lornadoone8887 there was no need for the ark of the covenant once Jesus Christ (A black Hebrew Israelite)died for his people; not all people. You don't know the scriptures. Why else would there be trials, tribulations, revelations, and final judgments for many but not all?
Idol worshippers try to be what they see lol these mother fuckers would literally lay in sut for 3 generations trying to be like us lmao so Constantine took a Eunic slave to use for his people to portray how they wish they could be. But til this day even the historical events trying to hide the truth has wound up spreading the word of God through these people and continued on even after Jesus was murdered. Now you have to go through Jesus to be redeemed and when they see his beautiful black self best believe they would rather just go to hell lol
Q&A section:
50:18 Symbolism isn't moral
53:27 (Question starts) 53:57 Inside VS Outside of an identity (including an ethnic identity)
56:46 Meaning of representations of Christ with VS without a beard
1:00:40 Why represent all this artistically if we can conceptually explain it?
1:02:14 St. Paul (the thorn in his side)
1:06:45 Further reading (the question specifically asks for recommended reading outside the tradition)
1:11:06 (Question starts) 1:12:00 Advice to priests on how to make their church building more beautiful
Jonathan may have been rather vague about the thorn in relation to St Paul, but I did not take it that he was accusing him of an ongoing sin. I do think you should not speak of it as "St Paul's sin".
@@anselman3156 Very well, I corrected it. Thanks. I didn't take it that he was accusing him either, I misspoke then :)
@@lisaonthemargins It's not clear what Jonathan was intending to say. People have their different notions of what St Paul's thorn was. I guess Jonathan may have been referring it to the difficulties endured in our mortal state since the Fall, as signified by the ground producing thorns. I have always tended to see it as some physical ailment, but I have heard it suggested it might have referred to some person at enmity with Paul, or some other troublesome fact. St Paul probably had some ongoing physical problems as a result of all the beatings he endured, and the various other hardships he suffered in his care for the Church. There is, of course, a possibility of a measure of penance in his sufferings for the harm he had done to Christians before his conversion. I am not sure if any theologians Eastern or Western have written of that possibility, but, whatever all the factors involved were, St Paul knew that he was in a sense making up some of the sufferings of Christ for the Church.
Can someone tell me the name of the works he recommended in the answer to that question about further reading?
@@yurijedi49 Gregory of Nyssa - The Life of Moses, Saint Ephrem the Syrian - Hymns on Paradise, and he also mentioned Maximus the Confessor, but I'm not sure what book he meant (maybe On the Cosmic Mystery of Jesus Christ will be relevant? although I don't know, didn't read it yet). After that it's Matthieu Pageau - Language of Creation, Cabasillas - A Commentary on the Divine Liturgy.
Every time I hear him speak. It's like hes just pointing out things I see plain as day. But only after he says it. Like a sommelier, he put the articulation of what I can taste but not put words to describe.
This channel is a salve. Each lecture puts my perspective back to center. Rather than feel annoyed by cultural shifts, trends, and scandal -- they become part of a huge narrative.
thank you so much for this comment. incredible. liberating.
(@ 1:07:45)
The manner in which Jonathan "the manner in which" Pageau talks about the writings of the Church Fathers tugs my heart towards them and towards liturgy... May this year be the year ❤️☦️
Lisa Parrott but before that he needs to make u a superchat moderator a couple more times again 😂😉☦️
@@michalolos1715 Lol a training ground to practice banishing demons
yes, lets help them find their proper place in this hierarchical structures 😂😂😂
I think he is already married...
How are we not paying big money to hear these? It’s baffling, but it also gives a ton of hope. I’m so glad that this is accessible. Thank you Jonathan.
I've watched your channel for quite some time, and it seems to me you've come a long way with your public speaking and laying out of information. Happy New Year to you and your family!
We desperately need these ideas to help us restore the church. Thank you.
The Church never fell (Matthew 16,18) nor has it ever been divided (1 Corinthians 12,25 John 19,36). The events in Ukraine are a test of faith.
Μιχάλης what events?
this was sooo awesome Jonathan. I hope you will start unpacking also the spiritual and mystical part of Christianity. You would love the books from this modern mystic Sophrony. He integrates so much of what you talk about symbolism in spiritual practice of prayer and its ontological and creative meaning. ❤️😉
Not fake news. Truth. Thank you
Your in person talks are the best!
I am glad you mentioned the artist that put Mary in the black. When you said that, I received a vision, along with a confirming wisdom and direction. I could not find Mary in the black online, so I drew what I saw. Its also exactly what I was needing, made me weep and was very meaningful and precious. I could write a whole library about it, and since I am not allowed to write, I guess I live it. Something for you to consider, when we live our witness, which is our life. When we are not allowed to live that life in the earth, makes us weep
among other things.
Well, you went next level in the Q and A
Several years ago I had a vivid dream of an encounter with Christ. His left eye was blown out, as if He had been punched in the eye....yet when He smiled His teeth were perfect. Psalm 34:20
the most intelligent explanation on iconography
Excellent speech! Have you thought about mmaking a video crash course on the Orthodox fathers? Like intros with their basic points and references to modern symbolism if possible
I just realized how the symbolic fact Jonathan mentions at around 54:00 relates to a fact of theology, namely the Essence/Energy distinction and St. Gregory Palamas. Jonathan mentions how every identity has an "inside" and an "outside". I see the "inside" Jonathan mentions as relating to the Essence of God, which makes the God's identity cohere (i.e. what makes God one and what makes the Persons of the Trinity one and cohere into one God). On the other hand, I see the "outside" he mentions as relating to the Energies of God, which are the identity of God externally working in the world/moving out into the world. Anyone else agree with this connection?
I absolutely agree with you both. The connection is definitely there.
I underestimated this video based on the first few minutes. You really get into it...
I always thought Jonathan is our Orthodox Jordan Peterson, but now I realized I listen to him way more than JP and he explains things that are way more important not just to Orthodox community.
Exactly my thoughts. JP was a gateway drug 🙂
I wonder is the Platonic mode of Reason more associated with the Right hand, vs Aristotelian being in the left? Or the other way around?
St. John the Baptist is the GOAT (as in Greatest Of All Times, the prophets, that is :-)
Goats are gnarly compared to sheep.
But Jesus Christ is both GOATS #los
@@kylehof6311 True dat, hahaha :-D
I'm sorry if it's too personal of a question, but why isn't your brother Orthodox, and what is he? Didn't expect to hear that, specially after buying his book haha (hadn't read it yet)
That aside, thank you for your work!
One lives life as it truly is and should be when He lives according to the Logos. Which is incarnated in Christ. It's why He is centered.
Love your stuff and recommend it to my bros.. really appreciate it.
About half way in... that laboratory patreon video is ringing... I want to talk Heraclitus (first wrote the word Logos and talked of tension of the bow string as well as wrestlers) and martial arts with you... Peace be with you.
I just wanted to say I would LOVE for Jonathan to review the symbolism in Midsommar. I feel like he is the perfect person to review it
The Beardless Christ in early Roman images is also due to the fact that the Holy Shroud carrying the first true Icon of Christ became known later, after it was retrieved from its hidden place in Edessa.
Hey Jonathan, I've been watching your videos for a bit now, and I really enjoy them.
I was wondering if you would consider doing a commentary on the 1980s series "Neon Genesis, evangelion"? It's somewhat of a cult classic from the era before Japanese animation became heavily Americanized. It uses some of the most interesting symbolism, and story telling I've ever seen in any sort of media. It's a story written by a man who had just came out of a 4 year depression seriously contemplating suicide, and it does such a good job of articulating the emotions of finding meaning.
A quick TH-cam search comes up with many videos from very small channels that have 200k, to 1 million views, so I believe it would be in your interest from a business point of view as well
Should add that it is pretty much a must to watch with English subtitles as opposed the English dub, as with the later, the entire soundtrack is butchered completely. It's been recently put up on Netflix, but I'd still recommend finding it on a dodgy streaming site, as there has been changes to the soundtrack in the Netflix version due to copyright issues.
First. God bless all
Thanks
Interesting - TBH I am surprised by the similarities with the old stories and what is happening
Thank you Jonathan for i use your explanations to describe something i didnt have the vocabulary to do it. I mostly use it to talk to literalist interpretators of the Bible specially Genesis. Although im still a Baptist you made me orthodox sympathyzer. I watch your videls regulary although i think you can improve the production a bit and shorten them up. Thank you.
NOT SHORTER! I get so much housework done listening.
Can you do a video on the new netlix series "the messiah"?
Thank you. :)
Second! Happy New Yeah, everybody!
We did it. Not all heros wear cape, but our names will be in this thred till the sky falls. Go with God my friend
Jonathan, could you say that since John the Baptist contains the embodiment of Elijah he is disparate in unity & identity in this sense also?
I haven't watched the whole video yet but he caught my attention with the peter/Paul imagery. I haven't thought this out at all but the othrodox and the catholics seem to be a peter/Paul scenario
Who's who?
Could be
30 min in: **puts on your 3D glasses** This is hackz!
45:45 good thief and bad thief was the last judgment made before this moment so it's included in the last judgment.... it's the 'ol "pun intended."
Can someone tell me the name of the works he recommended in the answer to that question about further reading?
Hymns on Paradise by St. Ephrem the Syrian, The Life of Moses by St. Gregory of Nyssa, St. Maximus the Confessor, and something unintelligible at 1:09:44.
Fantastic
Would really love a talk on Mary Magdalene I think there is a lot to unpack from popular heresies with Dan Brown to the relic of the skull and the grotto of the Sainte Baume which is also the supposed tomb of Solomon's architect 'maitre Jacques'... Also the Noli me tangere and Christ thought to be the gardener... Would love to hear your thoughts on all this if that makes sense !
Also hello from Montreal!
Best talk of the year
View reality through the lens of our tradition
Christianity is not story of ideas but the story of incarnation. You need to paryicipate.
1:09:51
"The Fathers may give you that amazing titbit, but it's not in a book about that."
Love from the geoduck kingdom
Jonathan had to wash his hair for this video ;)
I am curious to see the reactions of Orthodox Christians and other fans of Jonathan's work to the following claim.
All references to the Heavens being seen open in scripture refer to spiritual visions, including the Second Coming of Christ. It is a spiritual rapture, not a physical event.
Peace be unto you all.
Orthodox Christians do not believe in a "rapture" because there is no such thing in Scripture and no such thing has ever been claimed by the Church Fathers. The Greek word for rapture is ἔκστασις or "ecstasy" which is often translated as "amazement" and never refers to some physical removal of any persons.
@@MikhalisBramouell True. Thank you for the comment.
@@thenowchurch6419 I think protestants would have an easier time reading Scripture, firstly if they turned to the Church Fathers to explain, but also importantly if they understood their own vocabulary!
@@MikhalisBramouell Right again.
There needs to be a movement, especially among protestants, to respect and love intellect and higher education along with faith and scripture.
@@MikhalisBramouell about "rapture".I am orthodox(North Macedonia) but when i first hear that term on the net i cant understan it .Can you explanie me what they mean by that term?i listened talks where its mensed that we dont belive in that"rapture" and hear how protestant so pasioantly talk about it and i miss the the term all together.Thanks+
Me Greek Orthodox Church has what looks like to be God, with a triangle around his head and sphere in his hand at the apex of the dome. Any insights into this?
The triangle is the trinity and Idk about the circle but most likely its the world in the palm of his hand
6th century: red angel, blue angel
21st century: red pill, blue pill
31:00 bookmark for later
Hall Larry Smith Kevin Anderson Michael
Symbolism of ww3 and Australia on fire ?
the audio gets better in a minute
Whats the words? I get the tone
I was the 666th like on this video. What does it MEAN?!?!?
Gah.. Speculation presented as a theory for those predisposed to be interested.
What about if we created God in our own image? And the image we created of God evolved as we evolved spiritualy through the ideal of God's image we have created and wich we continue creating. And that doesen't mean God doesn't exist. Maybe we are just not enought developed to reach the complete truth of the face of God. Or God whait for more development of us to manifest more of Himself. Even tough I am christian. I don't think the Bible is perfect and I have problems agreeing whit the phrase at the end of the Bible that say that nothing have to be taking of or added in the Bible. The Bible was assambled by man. Apocryphas was part of the old catholic Bible. And other "lost scriptures" existed befor they assambled the Bible. Even tought I think the essential of the message of Christ is in the Bible.
My sense is that our image of God evolves, as we evolve. Humanity is still barely ready for the message of Christ today, let alone 2000 years ago.
I like your videos and been watching a long time but I feel what could be said in 10 minutes is taking 1 hour.
Did you overdub your speech? Because your talk is very clean, but it switches back and forth when you're taking questions. If so, I'm impressed with your devotion to it!
Third to be first!
Me much ado about nothing
Idolatry etc etc
At the beginning, you can hear an added background noise, first someone typing and than sexual moaning or some crap.
Made me laugh. "Here are Channel Happy Fall" we have implemented the perfect "plausible deniability" algorithm in a undertone voice(s), automatically, with sexual innuendos with the slogan of our sponsor! McDuddys ....... 6 months later... Everyone has a McDuddy dildo hat on .... "I just knew I needed a McDuddy Dildo Hat! I been unknowingly wanting one my entire life! Thanks McDuddy! I conceived my last son at McDuddys :) and we named him after our favourite place in the world! McDuddys!!!!!! He will be the coolest baller kid and eat nothing but McDuddys till he is old enough to enrole as McDuddy University!!!! Winning~!
I think "Idolatry" is the better term here....we are not supposed to make graven images. The Word Of God tells us about reality, not what some dude drew on an old scroll. Also why do they make Jesus look like a northern european? lol
Stomping Out Satan Yes, the Bible depicts God commanding Moses to place graven images of the Cherubim over the Ark of the Covenant and depict them on the curtains surrounding the Holy of Holies in His own Tabernacle just a couple chapters after recording the giving of the Ten Commandments. Context is everything, and this comment of yours suggests you do not understand the Scriptures or the context of Jewish and Christian use of images in worship spaces in the OT and NT period as well as you think you do.
@@lornadoone8887 there was no need for the ark of the covenant once Jesus Christ (A black Hebrew Israelite)died for his people; not all people. You don't know the scriptures. Why else would there be trials, tribulations, revelations, and final judgments for many but not all?
Idol worshippers try to be what they see lol these mother fuckers would literally lay in sut for 3 generations trying to be like us lmao so Constantine took a Eunic slave to use for his people to portray how they wish they could be. But til this day even the historical events trying to hide the truth has wound up spreading the word of God through these people and continued on even after Jesus was murdered. Now you have to go through Jesus to be redeemed and when they see his beautiful black self best believe they would rather just go to hell lol