Unbonded my generator and started a fire!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 ม.ค. 2024
- For details on why you would unbond a generator, see this excellent video: • Bonded vs Floating neu...
For details about whether or not you need a ground rod connected to your generator, check out this video:
• Does My Generator Need... - แนวปฏิบัติและการใช้ชีวิต
CORRECTIONS, thanks to the folks who commented below:
0:08 - Unbonding is removing the ground strap that connects ground and neutral, not ground to frame.
3:25 - The generator is a single phase, so it couldn’t run “out of phase.” Instead of 120v going to each leg, most or all of the 240v was going to one leg, and almost none to the other.
I just removed the ground wire from the plug terminal that goes into my generator and left my generator bonded. That way I can still use it around my property remotely and have the bonded ground.
Each leg always has 120v to neutral. The 240v is across the two legs without a neutral. With a missing neutral, 240v is present across the loads of the two legs in series. Since the loads will not be equal, the voltage drop across devices on each leg is different and some devices will see too high of a voltage and may burn up as happened with your surge suppressors.
@bluesrider. The 240v cable between my generator and box plugs into the generator carrying the 2 hits, ground and neutral. When the wires from the female receptacle on the generator go down to where you unbounded your Westinghouse they connect to their respective tabs, which are then bonded. What’s the difference between removing that jumper bond wire on the generator and having your transfer switch only connect the neutral, 3 wire config, and me removing the copper ground wire in the cable from the male ground pin on the plug?
I don’t have a transfer switch I’m wired into a 50 a breaker in the main panel and manually switch off the grid after the Power goes out.
(Unbonded)
For 20 years I’d been connecting my bonded generator to my main panel with no problems. After seeing a James Condon video on this topic I unhooked the cable ground at the plug. Had a power outage and no problem, but I don’t want any problems. I just don’t see the difference between what I did with the cable and unbonding inside the genny. I have an 8’ ground rod right below the main box I plug the gen into.
A 120/240 generator cannot go out of phase as it only has one phase. What probably happened is loosing the neutral caused the power being consumed to find an alternate route back to the generator. Meaning that instead of 120 -N - 120. you had for example 50-N-190. Those surge protectors operate by clipping any over voltages. depending on the specific component (a metal oxide Varistor is usually used and rated around 140-150v) will cause the Protector to try to protect. IN this case the Surge it was seeing wasnt due to power issues as a fault in the wiring of the cable. Glad you found what caused it.
Thank you Matt, I appreciate the explanation 👍
Over revving will also clip them MOV's, Diodes, trans, IC and wipe out most battery chargers, computers, digital equipment etc. 130v at 65 hz starts driving shit crazy and turns the Genie into smoke
Your partially correct, You will read different voltages at the loads but keep in mind that the generator still only does 120vpk 240v p/p If you have equal loads say two identical fridges can you run them in series no neutral? Or say have 120v compressor in series with a deep freezer in the garage? Will one run and not the other?
Ahhh the age old question? Yes or no, in or out, up or down, right left, 1/0, will one burn up and not the other? Keep in mind what is in series and what is in parallel, isn't electricity fun.
@@bluesriderDFhe's on the right track but his explanation is erroneous. The lost generator neutral caused a backfeed through all the branch circuit neutrals putting 240v on your 120v equipment.
@@ianbelletti6241 No. he is spot-on.
It does not put 240V on your 120V legs, it depends on the impedances of the connected loads at any given time.
It can vary between 0V and 240V on a leg (and the converse on the opposite leg).
I did not see any errors or typos in what he stated.
Definitely a classic example of a floating neutral. A couple years back went on a service call in a late 1970s home, where the TV, DVR, DVD player and stereo system in living room smoked up so bad it set off the smoke detectors in the hallway and master bedroom after a 1500 watt electric fireplace had been running for over an hour, plugged into a different outlet on the other end of the living room. Come to find out, all the receptacles were backstab connection and part of a multiwire circuit (L1 & L2, sharing a common neutral) and the neutral burned up on a receptacle upstream, making everything downstream into a series 240V circuit and depending on the load balancing, voltages applied accross the load can range from nearly 0, to nearly 240. Also pointed out to the homeowner and corrected, the two single pole breakers controlling the multiwire branch circuit, by installing an identified handle tie to ensure that if either leg trips the entire circuit is dead, protecting anyone working on it thinking its dead when in fact one leg is still hot, evidently this wasn't required when the home was built.
This whole catastrophe could have been avoided, had article 300.13 (B) of the NEC been applied which states that for multwire branch circuits, the continuity of the grounded (neutral) conductor shall not depend on connections to receptacles, lamp holders and so forth, where the removal of such devices would interrupt continuity. What this means, is that the neutral on those receptacles should have been connected via a pigtail
I HATE backstab receptacles!!!!
Always use spec grade clamping connections, or at least use a J hook connection.
This was one of my arguments for not unbonding my generator, having more or less a redundant neutral. In the end I did unbond it and have not had any issues, but this video shows the importance of having a good solid connection all the way around.
Why did you unbind it if you were for bonding? This topic is so confusing, nobody has a definitive answer. I haven't had an issue running my generator bonded.
I think the biggest lesson here is to always test before you need it. After making any changes, test and verify.
Glad you weren't hurt.
Thank you Mike. The cable tested okay as far as continuity, but failed when under load. Definitely learned something here.
@@bluesriderDF That's rough. A continuity test is usually enough.
My first thought after all the troubleshooting was "why didn't you test the cable first since it's the easiest? "And then I realized I would have followed the same process as..."it's just a cable and how could THAT be the issue?"
Nice detective work. Thanks for the info.
Thanks so much 👊
You are like a electrician detective. Glad it was only a couple of surge protectors that burned and not you home.
LOL, thank you! I'm hoping things are uneventful going forward!
Don't confuse neutral with ground. Ground only carries current when something is wrong. Neutral carries all the unbalanced current between L1 and L2.
That unfortunately isn't as true as you would normally hope.
With the increased use of better protective earth connects you can easily get a competition between the supply company's attempts at providing a low impedance neutral (truly reference to earth at the generators, subs, and transformers) and the parallel earthing impedances for the multipoint safety protections.
It gets worse in three phase supplied zones where the individual phase takes are unbalanced and the protective earth-neutral bonding enhances the diverted neutral current. It will depend on your generic location as to whether the local buildings and construction styles will make it more or less likely , and not forgetting 'fault' conditions.
The surge protector did catch on fire because it had a very /low/ resistance. Not high resistance. The MOVs inside go low resistance when exposed to over voltage, and they are supposed to short out and blow your fuses. It can be dangerous supplying power from a generator as it might no be able to make enough short-circuit current to trip thr fuses.
Before you unbonded your ground at the generator, your neutral current was flowing through the ground conductor in the extension cord and the bonding jumper. So it was a related problem and unbondining your generator is correct. A ground rod would NOT have mitigated this problem even if you had connected it directly to your service entrance rod. That would have made the neutral current flow through your ground rod wires.
I agree. Thanks for posting!
Side note: 250.30 of the NEC requires separate bonding wire to the service panel when connecting a generator in this situation if the neutral remains connected to the grid. However, if the transfer switch also separates the neutral from the grid, then the generator needs to be internally bonded.
The neutral is never connected to the grid as it's generated by the center tap of the line transformer on the pole
I am not an electrician, but have been doing home renovations for 30 years. I installed a 120 volt Coleman RV heat pump in my kitchen ceiling. I also installed a dedicated duplex outlet for this purpose. However, when I turned on the heat pump the first time, it ran but was noisy. So I shut it off and went to inspect the heat pump itself. The motor case was extremely hot. I troubleshooted the possibilities, and found I had connected the neutral to the neighboring breaker, so the circuit was 240 volt. OOOPS.. Five years later, by some magic, the heat pump is still working. Oversight happens to everyone, so your extension cord failure is not a surprise, but glad you figured it out. (PS: during the course of home renovations, I found many many electrical and plumbing faults, done by the "PROFESSIONALS".)
I feel like no good deed goes unpunished as they say. I did a lot of research on this ahead of time, and I really thought I had everything covered.
When the neutral get loose like that one leg goes high, the other one goes almost to zero volts like you said on the video and everything is connected in series between the two phases. The culprit is the loose neutral connection. It can also happen on the utility side of the installation.
Yeah, there's nothing like learning in real life, LOL. This is scary stuff.
Also known as a floating neutral.... VERY bad!!!
I had a series arc fault that started a fire in my basement. The load was a 120V 10A steam humidifier fed from a 15A outlet through a 25ft 14ga extension cord. It ran this way for many years. The cause was a poor connection at the female end of the extension cord. The arc persisted for a long duration and it burned itself open without tripping the standard 15A breaker. It started the wall on fire. Fortunately I was able to extinguish the fire before it got out of control.
The solution: I ran a new dedicated 15A AFCI circuit to a GFCI outlet mounted clear of any flammables to feed only the humidifier.
Running continuous unattended high current loads through manufactured cables or extension cords is hazardous because the connections in such cheaply manufactured cables cannot be inspected and verified.
Arc fault circuit protection is my new best friend. 😊
And all extension cords get side eye from me now. 😒
Oh man! Glad you caught that. I had this house built and I'm familiar with it. When you buy somebody else's place, you have no idea what they did. One thing I wish they did here was use 12ga / 20amp for more circuits, especially in the garage. That might actually be required now.
Do not count your bus bars as phases. They are not phases only bus bar A and bus bar B same phase.
Very good content in your post. Thanks for sharing. Rest assured most of us do not think of checking the UL listed store bought extensions. Now I will.
From a UK perspective, I'd say they were anti-phase, so were 'different'. Each of the systems have their strengths and weaknesses ;-)
If you haven’t already done so, I’d recommend a whole house surge protector. Although if it’s installed at the main panel and you are running over the transfer switch circuits only that would probably be bypassed.
One thing I’ve done at my house is install a voltmeter at where the generator goes into the transfer switch. That way I could see abnormal high voltage if my neutral was loose.
I use a generator interlock on our service entrance. Like you I added a generator status panel next to it that shows current and voltage on each leg, and frequency. The generator is electric start so the status panel includes a DC voltmeter to monitor battery voltage and verify the battery maintainer is working properly.
I also recommend installing a whole house surge protector in addition to point of use ones and also at hard wired devices.
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
I have been stressing about the floating neutral question for about a month now and I am almost finished with the complete installation of my system.
You answered my questions and really gave me down to earth answers.
I'm good now.
Thanks man.
Well you just made my night. 😊 You are welcome!
"gave me down to earth answers." I see what you did there.
I suspect this is what happened to me. A few years ago we needed the generator, I plugged it in just like I always do and the Keurig coffee maker took a hit. Seems like we lost other electrical appliances also. Inspection of the extension cord showed a loose wire. I don't remember which one it was. But I suspect it was the neutral. I tightened all wires in both ends of the cord and everything began to work correctly. Thanks for posting this, it helps me understand what I experienced.
I guess you were fortunate too.
Thank you for everything!
I’m glad you and your family are safe 🙏
Same to you!
Excellent video. This reminds me of my time in the Navy while attached to a CVN. Extension cords were strictly prohibited unless they were tested and then only allowed to be used for a specific use and nothing else. When I asked folks who had been around how they were tested, I was told they ran voltage above and beyond the AWG limits and checked for defects, which I would assume included continuity, but I can't be sure. I have checked continuity of extension cords from time to time, but I have fallen out of the habit. I will certainly resume checking mine as I used them.
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Sidebar: I have read many safety articles about ships having ground problems, especially while pier side. I got in the habit of NOT grabbing the handrail of gangway, but instead, tap the metal with the back of my hand before I take a grip. I am not an electrician and not knowledgeable of how these ground problems occur. I do recall more than one involved civilian contractors running generators to perform welding and having a ground in the water. I do not remember if the generators were on the pier or on the ship. I seem to remember that the generators were fairly close to the gangways so stray voltage would migrate through the hull and energize the handrails, maybe a burn, maybe worse. If anyone can correct this, please do!
The ship stuff is a little scary 😮
And swimming pools (lighting, stray paths, enhanced sensitivity when wet, or pregnant, etc.)
Mike Holt has some good videos on the subject.
Good info. Thanks for sharing !! So glad the damage was minimal!!
Ride safe!!
Watch out, now all hardware on your electrical system which contains MOVs may have had their lifespan shortened.
2:31 These surge protectors are armed with metal oxide varistors which are simply components in parallel with the mains which will drop in resistance when exposed to transient spikes literally designed to short circuit and “neutralise” “clip” the spikes but with no ground on the generator it’s clear the open neutral put significant disruption in the MOV causing it to clip and short the mains.
Yup. I will be going through and replacing those.
@@bluesriderDF
They're also referring to your appliances themselves, because their power supplies often have MOVs and suppression capacitors rates for a specific voltage for filtering as well. So, computers, TVs, washing machines, microwaves, etc, ALL have probably had their power supply lifespan shortened. If you have things breaking left and right a year or two down the line.... it was probably that power spike that caused it. If you were lucky though, the powerstrips that burned took nearly all the load and gave their lives to clamp the voltage down. Those components are designed to short as long as there's still a voltage spike. Chances are you'd be replacing a lot more devices if you didn't have them plugged in, so thank APC for making fairly durable equipment. I always recommend their stuff.
@@theLuigiFan0007Productions Time will tell I guess 😢
@@bluesriderDF
Yeah, hopefully things took the path of most luck and least resistance. Good thing you found that though, that cable would have raised hell down the line regardless. Perhaps schedule a routine cable inspection, generators vibrate, and it probably loosened itself, now that I've had a day to think on what I saw in the video. Hey, you got it straightened out, and your system should be reliable again. Best of luck, stay safe, and have a great day.
Personal experiences - the best lessons for those of us who are still learning! Thank you!
You're welcome!
Very common issue on RV's that have 50a service connection. Im RV service tech electrical specialist. Old cords or old power pedistals at RV parks. For various reasons if the neutral line fails plug, cord, etc and a low resistance appliance like the hot water heater kicks on electric causes a huge imbalance on the two lines of 120 and typically fries a bunch of stuff in seconds.
Holy smokes! Literally!
The same exact condition that you experienced occurs all too often when utility feeds coming into a building looses the neutral connection, usually at the pole due to windy conditions or sometimes in the meter pan due to corrosion. The voltages go out of balance and cause all kinds of grief. The first clue is when some lights are dimming while others are too bright and subsequently burn out. There isn’t much that can go wrong that is worse than this.
Yeah, scared us real good.
When your house is powered by a generator neutral and live legs work 100% the same was as when connected to the grid. The idea behind unbonding generators is that the code says neutral and ground should be bonded only at the main service panel, but unbonding the generator won't make anything fail, *stop worrying, it wasn't your fault*
Blame only the importer of that extension cord. I say importer because it would be a shame if that thing was actually made in the US!
If it was the plug on the other end it could get loose due to vibrations, but that socket was attached to a plug on the wall.
On the other hand having a generator bonded may cause some devices to not work correctly, I'm from Spain so I don't know exactly how those transfer switches are wired to the main service panel in the US. I guess a bonded neutral after the main service panel can make at least some GFCI breakers trip. I'm not sure if it can cause more problems.
The ground wire of the extension cord connects the ground wiring of your house to the chassis* of the generator and if the generator is bonded to its neutral too.
The neutral wire of the extension cord connects the neutral wiring of your house to the neutral of the generator and if the generator is bonded to its ground too.
*Usually the generator chassis (frame) is connected to the alternator housing by an extra ground wire, if not, only the alternator housing and engine will be bonded to the neutral if it is neutral bonded.
Losing the neutral means the 240V from both live legs won't have a neutral to keep the 120V for the 120V legs, depending on the power of the devices connected to each 120V leg the voltage on one leg will be higher than the voltage on the other leg.
If you have the exact same load on both 120V legs (almost impossible but let's pretend there's a 100W light bulb on each leg) the voltage will be 120V on both legs as if nothing happened.
But as soon as one leg starts using more power than the other, its voltage will decrease by the same amount as it will increase on the other leg, usually ending up with almost 240V on one leg and almost zero volts on the other leg.
*That's what killed your surge protectors,* a simple overvoltage, and it is normal for surge protectors to overheat. Melting and burning are possible too, although the plastic should be self-extinguishing. If the plastic housing of the surge protector develops a hole due to the heat or already had ventilation slots some sparks can come out, therefore never place a surge protector near things like curtains, upholstery, carpet, wallpaper, etc. that aren't fire-rated.
Wooden floors and walls may resist heat and/or sparks but it is always best to place the protectors on non-combustible materials such as ceramic tiles, concrete, drywall, etc.
Surge protectors will only stop overheating when the voltage returns to normal levels or the power is disconnected.
If the surge protector itself is damaged by the excessive voltage and it remains powered it will continue to (over)heat until current stops flowing, that can be due to a fuse or automatic switch built into the protector, due to the breaker that powers that circuit tripping or due to the internal circuitry of the surge protector being completely burned out, it seems the later happened to one of your protectors.
The metal cylinder with a plastic tip under the two coils of the surge protector that suffered less damage is a thermal fuse, even if only one is visible I guess the new unit should have one for each MOV or at least one sandwiched between each two MOVs.
*The old APC SurgeArrest if made before 2003 was included in recall number 14-203* for melting and burning, I don't know the exact reason, maybe those were lacking thermal fuses or used the wrong type or defective ones.
Thermal fuses are placed next to the MOVs and when those get dangerously hot the thermal fuse(s) will blow up cutting the power to the MOV(s) and the rest of the circuit.
Anyway without the surge protectors 120V devices connected to that leg that were powered on could have been seriously or irreversibly damaged if they were not designed to withstand 240V so one surge protector could have caused a fire but they probably saved (some of?) your electronic devices, after writing all this I don't remember if you mentioned other damaged devices in the video...
Some devices like phone chargers, computer power supplies, TVs, some LED bulbs, etc. are designed for "universal voltage" or "100-250V" which in theory goes from the 100V used in Japan to the 250V used in some countries but they actually work correctly from a lower voltage that can be 85V to 90V to a higher one that is usually 265V, approximately 10% above or below the values indicated on the label. Also those "universal voltage" devices won't care if the frequency is 50Hz or 60Hz, anything between 47Hz and 53Hz is safe.
Okay, I'm going to need to re-read this a few times. Thank you!
@@bluesriderDF Do not mention it. I know how stressful it is to live through a potentially disastrous experience and not be sure if it was caused by a defect or if you made a mistake.
If you want to read a "little" 😅more I'll tell you about my similar experience:
I've 3-phase power at home, that's common in Europe, when a few years ago they installed smart meters they left the neutral wire loose in a terminal and some time later it failed, I had a lot of power surge protectors (single socket models, one for each electronic device) and the breakers started to trip, some of the surge protectors also released some smoke although none got hot enough to melt.
Next to the main panel I have a voltmeter for each phase so I immediately saw that in some line that should have 230V there was almost 400V and in others not even 10V.
Then I immediately understood that the neutral had been interrupted somewhere, the last one who had modified the wiring had been *me* to replace a changeover switch so I thought I had forgotten to properly tighten a terminal so I started blaming myself until I verified like a dozen times that my work had been completely correct.
It was an hour in which my blood pressure must have reached a record point because I ended up with a terrible headache, every time I confirmed that everything was fine I had the feeling that I had forgotten to check something and I had the need to check everything again 😓
Suddenly I remembered that they had also replaced the meter a few months earlier so perhaps the fault had not been made by me but by the technicians from the electrical company, I went to check it and indeed the neutral wire was completely loose 🤬
I reconnected it correctly and discovered that the wire terminals of the three phases were also insufficiently tightened 😡
I went back into the house and turned up all the switches and the voltages were 100% correct.
But when I started plugging in devices and testing the ones that were on at the time of the failure, I had more than €2,500 worth of damaged devices, not counting the surge protectors.
Before calling the insurance I decided to check the damage on each device and fortunately all but one had built-in surge protection and their fuse had blown. I replaced the fuses and for safety reasons also the varistors and after a few hours of work I only had a damaged power supply worth around €90 😮💨 so no need to deal with the insurance.
I only had to rebuild half of that power supply, in the high voltage side everything was burned, not even a simple resistor or capacitor was saved, I had never seen a case like it before, I think it is because it was very compact the conductive electrolyte from the filter capacitor mixed with the carbon residues from the components that burned first acted as an great conductor causing too much current to pass through the other components that in principle should not have suffered so much damage. Most of the components only cost me €5 but it had a slim size capacitor that was almost €10 and I had to wait several days for it, while one of the same capacity and normal size didn't even cost €2, so I put the normal size one on it and modified the power supply housing to make room for it, basically using a heat gun to bend the plastic cover a bit.
Maybe it's not that pretty, but it's in the attic and no one sees it, it's the power supply for the TV antenna amplifier. Google for "IKUSI 2845" if you want to see the amplifier and an "IKUSI 270011" for the spare power supply.
Thanks for the story. Glad you figured it out, and glad no one was hurt. I'm sure it was a real head-scratcher.
Now... to finish the explanation. When the neutral was bonded to ground on the generator (as well as at the service panel), the ground wire provided a return path for the current despite the disconnected neutral wire. So everything worked, although not as designed. When you unbonded the neutral on the generator, the ground wire could no longer provide a return path to the generator's neutral. I don't pretend to know exactly what fried your surge protectors but obviously it created an overvoltage situation.
However, I think it would have been more appropriate and more helpful to title this video "Faulty Generator Cord Started a Fire!"
Thank you for the explanation. That is what I've been told as well. I know it will be nerve racking using the generator the next time I need it until I calm down.
Surge protectors are made to clamp voltage at a low enough level that your electronics aren't damaged by a very brief spike in voltage. But sustained over voltage causes the MOVs to get extremely hot. Plastic surge protector casings can melt or burn. Although the sustained over voltage situation is rare, I decided many years ago to get surge protectors with metal casings. I had seen an over voltage situation at work that melted a hole through the bottom of one of our surge protectors and burned the carpet it was laying on. Fortunately it was only the carpet directly under the hole and the rest of the carpet did not catch fire.
100% this was caused by a floating neutral. In Australia we use three phase and not split/2 phase like North America, however the outcome is the same. The most loaded phase goes low and the lightest loaded phase goes up to the phase to phase voltage of 415 for us. If my eyesight serves me correct, the smoking gun is the wire ends in the female lead socket, they were tinned with solder, and absolute no no! Copper has decent spring tension and will maintain a tight bond under a screw terminal, if the conductor strands are tinned with solder, the lead will slowly flow away from the pinch point with time and become lose. I have seen this more times than I care to remember and always go off my nut when I see people doing it.
I was next to a piece of equipment that lost its neutral some time back, it was like firing my 44 magnum without hearing protection, I traced the fault to a lose neutral that had indeed been solder tinned and worked lose with time.
Wow, that is crazy!!
Great info. Glad the family is safe.
Much appreciated, thank you!
Thanks for sharing! Glad everyone is OK!
I appreciate that, thanks.
2:37 OH MAN those models LOVE to do that when “protecting its load.” I worked in IT at a community college a few years ago. We had a TON of these that looked exactly like this in one of our largest buildings(happened to be administration! Lol!), we had TONS of equipment and cameras go offline and not come back up. We were a little confused until we got into the office Monday morning after spring break to find that the utility replaced the pad mounted transformers and accidentally doubled the voltage somehow and so all of the 120v surge protectors burned up EXACTLY like the one seen here! 2:37 all of the computers that were plugged directly into the wall were fine because they could handle 220-240v. We ended up spending like $35,000~ I believe replacing all of the power strips and old crappy 120v power strip style APC battery backups from the same era. I’ll admit, they sure did their job! Albeit not in the most elegant way possible. 😅 The other surge strip models from APC & Eaton/Tripp Lite were perfectly fine so if you ask me APC made a bad product and refuses to do anything about it or admit it. They all burned up so badly I have NO CLUE HOW NONE OF THE FIRE ALARMS WENT OFF!!!
All of our Eaton battery backups were fine as they shut off their internal input breakers and remained on battery/off until the proper voltage was restored. Can’t say the same about that generation of APC battery backups though…
I am n IT Director and I use AOC all over the place 😮
Excellent work tracking this down. Good due diligence on your part.
Thanks!
Even if you had a bonded neutral and ground on the generator it still may have caused problems if the ground is also loose in your plug.
That's true.
As others have said, thanks for sharing the story and glad everyone is ok. Sharing these experiences helps others.
Thanks so much. That's why I posted it, I'm glad it's getting some views.
Your split phase imbalanced load could not get back to center tap on genset windings and found a path via N-G surge MOV’s. Typically surge protectors have a thermal fuse that should had taken it out of the circuit. That being said. It could had came back through you if you were a lower impedance path. Would recommend reinstalling that genset bond strap and keep a better eye on your connections and balance. Also check your connections to earth.
It seems like having 2 paths to ground is "safer" even though not to code.
Thanks for the video and especially your troubleshooting process. It should be helpful for many viewers.
Thanks!
You may have overcomplicated your thoughts enough to lead you down the rose colored road. A floating neutral is actually very simple. You have created two 120V busses that of course have 240 between them. Since the neutral is floating, now the 120V loads on each buss are in SERIES with each other, and depending on the loads on each buss, the voltage to the loads on each buss either rise or fall, depending on the amperage they draw. IE if you have two 100W lamps, one on each buss, in theory, they will operate "fine" But if you have say, a 60W and a 100W, the 100W will draw more current, and case more voltage to appear across the 60W lamp.
NOW ON THAT fact, you could easily notice this if you installed a pair of voltmeters across each phase. If the loads are badly unbalanced, or if the neutral develops a problem, the voltages will become more and more unequal.
I'm not sure that bonding / unbonding is a good strategy for safety here. THE GROUND AKA green circuits are NEVER intended for carrying current. They are FOR SAFETY in the event of shorts/ faults etc.
And, this problem really is not unique to a genset, either. Something like an RV cable could have suffered the same problem with a bad cord/ cap connection.
Don't forget that there are now a lot of RFI/EMC filters in all the consumer goods and they all leak current (typ 1.6mA) from the live to wiring earth (not neutral), so you can build up a leakage bias that makes makes the system take up an unexpected potential difference between the systems. They are never truly 'floating'. The surge protectors are also reference to wiring earth.
The ground circuits should be sized to ensure that they are capable of carrying fault currents large enough to trip fuses (old & new).
It all gets very confusing because "Earth" can mean many different things and the assumption of ideal wiring (zero ohms, infinite capacity) on circuit diagrams can give a false indication of reality (and local 'practicalities';-).
Thanks for this video. It definitely made me go "Huh." I think I'm going to check all my connections now.. 😊
Thanks! I’m going to check my cable tonight and my shore power cable also.
Thank you for sharing your experience. By sharing this you may have helped others. Kudos to you sir!
That's what I hope for. Thanks for posting 👍
Nice job finding the problem. In my home the surge protectors are in steel boxes next to the fuse box. Yes I still have fuses on the old part of the house. I never, ever use any plastic electrical devices like a UPS, surge protector etc. I had a problem with power and it was due to a corroded aluminum wire feeding my panel. When we had a hurricane and lost power I replaced all those wires. Been good ever since.
Thanks you for posting. I definitely prefer steel over plastic. Everything works until it doesn't, right?
The best whole house surge protector is the Ditek brand they have a different MOV called a thermal protected MOV. What happens during a surge most surge protectors MOV's sacrifice themselves. Which is what you want, but the problem is if you get a 2nd surge now you have no protection. Ditek because thermal protected MOV can continue to protect they don't self sacrifice. It installs easily into your main panel.
Thanks for bringing awareness!! Will definitely be inspecting all cables as I am currently installing a transfer switch and generator inlet at my house.
This is exactly why I posted it. Thank you!
Good awareness video to check everything you buy.
Thanks for sharing your experience and knowledge Brother. Much Appreciated !!
Great job and fantastic detail!
Thank you, I appreciate it. 👊
Wow !! Thank you so much for sharing.
Thanks for watching!
Thanks for posting this.
I believe that the connections were tight from the factory, but got loose over the 20 years the cable was in service.
Screws get loose over time from vibrations, so I believe that all the rough handling that the cable endured (specifically the plugs) from being dropped and dragged around made the screws loosen over time.
It's a good reminder (even for myself as I haven't thought about this until now) to check all the cables that have plugs mechanically connected to them (with screws, not soldered on and potted in rubber fom the factory).
I will never know if they were tight at the beginning. But i'm never going to use a cable like that again. Soldered and molded from now on.
Learn two things from this:
1 - Do a trail run before the power goes out.
2 - When you do the test, open all breakers. Make sure you get the proper voltage in the panel (or transfer switch) from both phase to phase and both phases to neutral.
Well, I guess this was a trial run. It literally happened in about 5 seconds. My understanding from what others have posted here is that both legs would be 120 until you start adding load. Unless the load is exactly the same (not likely), things will go south real fast.
thanks for this video; glad there was no major damage!
You're welcome, I appreciate the post!
I have experienced loose connections at the generator end plug that I suspect is a result of vibration from the generator. These connections need to be checked regularly.
Wow, who knew? I really like the new cable. Because everything is soldered, sealed, and I can see it.
A great video, thank you for explaining everything.
You're welcome, I'm glad it was helpful. Thanks for posting!
Thank you for all this information very useful. I will check my extension cord. Very very careful now. Thank you so much.
You're welcome!
Your description is a little confusing. What happens with a missing neutral is that the only path for current to flow is between the two hots. There is no ‘phasing’ issue going on. Basically what you had was unbalanced phases, ie the load on phase A was different than the load on phase B. All the current is flowing through all the loads on phase A and then flowing through all the loads on phase B. If they aren’t matched, then the 240V from the generator (voltage across the two phases) isn’t evenly split, so the voltage loads have on phase A might be say 180V and the voltage on loads on phase B is 60V
Think of hooking two mismatched lightbulbs in series, say a 40W and a 100W and connecting that to 240V. The 40W bulb would see a much higher voltage than 120V and would quickly burn out.
That’s why the problem got worse as you started switching more circuits in. Had you switched all circuits at once it’s likely the loads would have been relatively balanced and you wouldn’t have discovered this issue.
All that said, throw any of those surge protection bars in the garbage immediately. They are a faulty design in in that situation then starting burning. You NEED protection like that to be self fused, those are absolute junk, and frankly shouldn’t be permitted to be sold.
My electrical knowledge is limited to basic wiring. I described what happened as best I could, based on what I was told. I don't understand why those surge protectors reacted the way they did. I've been using APC products since the early 90s, they've always been considered a top brand. It's hard to know what to have confidence in for an average person, I think.
When I switch over to generator, I flip one circuit on each side of the switch, trying to keep the load equalized.
It was very scary, I'm glad it wasn't worse.
Thank you for posting!
Nothing faulty about the surge arrestors. They were used outside their designed criteria. With a broken neutral you get an imbalance in voltage, exactly as you described. But a surge arrestor can only absorb so much energy and normally with a connected neutral it would have tripped a breaker under a sustained over voltage condition or the surge is momentary. But in this case with no neutral and the current flowing through the arrestor due to a higher than normal voltage AND flowing through a device(s) on the other phase it limited the current to less than the breaker. So the arrestors were clamping and flowing current far longer than they would in a correctly working system. Even with your idea of a fuse, the current may not have been enough to blow whatever fuse you installed, since these were probably feed with a 15A branch circuit to begin with.
I remember when, as a heating contractor the first electronic controlled furnaces appeared. I was installing one and upon testing it wouldn't fire and shut off on safety. I fiddled with the thing for over an hour and finally got on the phone and called the manfactures engineering dept. The told me to check the polarity of the black and white wire coming. Come to find out the black was the neutral and the white was the hot leg (+). I wired them backwards and let the customer know in case of any future issues. Polarity has become quite critical. The grounding when using a genset is more than confusing to the average user and has been the cause of many a mishap.
Found that to be CRITICAL when using twinning control on two 120 volt furnaces running in combined mode.
Thank you for the lesson. About to install an interlock kit and buy some cables for a new generator. Will definitely be checking the connections all around.
Glad it was helpful!
that APC unit gave its life to try to protect what was plugged it to it. the problem is that all things have there limit. if that was all you lost you were very lucky. i have seen floating neutrals take out everything in a house including refer, washer, dryer, microwaves , TVs and more. the more load differential between L1 and L2 the worse it is.
I haven't found any other damaged items, which i'm super glad for. Very fortunate!!
When you drop the neutral the loads on one phase are put in series with the loads on the other phase. If they aren’t balanced evenly you will get a high voltage on one phase and a lower voltage on the other. Think 240 across 2 different value resistors in series. The higher resistor will have a higher voltage drop than the lower. Same current through both.
Would a whole house surge protector have helped in my situation? I'm thinking probably not.
@@bluesriderDFprobably not, they need the nuetral to do any work.
@@bluesriderDFit absolutely would have
You do your research - thanks for sharing
You're welcome, and thanks for posting!
Wow. Nice find.
Checking that cable was the last thing on my mind!
Great info, thanks!
You're welcome, thanks for posting 👊
Thankyou for the reminder to check your generator cords because you can get a defective cord and things do wear out as well as the fact that terminal screws can sometimes loosen.
That sucks! I had an electrician wire up my entire generator even though I’m a lineman for the local power company. It’s a separate craft.
Atleast you found what the problem was. Just by what you were saying I knew you had an open neutral. You had straight 240 volts going through your appliances. Hence why your surge protectors were smoked. Your wiring in your house is rated to 600 volts. Everything plugged into that could have caught fire except your 240 volt equipment. You were lucky you caught the problem right a way. Before your house started on fire.
Thanks John. Yes, many prayers of thanks have been going heavenward since this happened. I did not know that about the 600v, thanks for mentioning that.
seperate craft lol lineman job makes me sweat
@@bluesriderDF You might want to consider getting an inverter generator if you have any sensitive appliances? Most appliances today have micro-processors built into them. Unless you have an old Kelvinator fridge & a GE fan?
Most regular generators are incapable of delivering clean sine wave power. That's another component of electricity that goes unnoticed. It's not just amperes & volts being provided by your local power company. An inverter generator produces DC power. Then converts it to A/C for your house. They are much quieter than your Westinghouse & your neighbors will thank you. They are much more fuel efficient & burn less gas. In my case a lot less gasoline. If you run household appliances on your Westinghouse for a long time say during a prolonged outage? You might end up burning up your refrigerator, dishwasher & stove. If you do a lot of laundry while on generator? You might need a washing machine & dryer too? I know an appliance place I use who makes a tidy profit after every storm. Folks hook up a regular generator to their appliances & after a few days need to replace them.
I was at a customer's home replacing their service after Isais a few years ago. His yard was littered with gas jugs all over his yard to keep his well pump on, his sump pump & his fridge & freezer. His generator was already over loaded to add central air. They were obviously exhausted & rung out from the whole ordeal. I didn't tell him I purposely bought in a neighborhood with town supplied water & a dry basement. I had enough capacity to run my 2-1/2 ton central air as well as the rest of the appliances in our house. My wife could conduct regular business in our house without worry. I even hired a local guy to refill our generator on demand. The last thing I need to hear is my wife calling telling me the generator ran out of fuel. She called JD one time. I took care of JD later. For a three day outage we burned 15 gallons of gas. I was more than happy with my generator.
@@johnclyne6350I'll have to look into those.
You'll need a pretty big inverter generator if you plan on running your whole house on one? Mine is the best money can buy! I have a Honda EU 7000 is. They are very pricey but if you desire the best like I do? There is no substitution. You may not have the resources I have though?
Inverter generators are typically very small. They start at 1000 watt & go up to about 7000 watts. Only the 3000 watt inverters & up are available with a 240 plug. Inverters are very efficient with fuel & are very quiet. My neighbors don't know I have a generator. They think it's magic that I never lose power after big storms.
Inverters are much heavier & often have an enclosed housing.
If you live on a budget there are good inverters available by Other manufacturers.
OK... Let me break this down for you. If the neutral is switched in your transfer switch, then you must keep the bonding jumper in the generator, because then it is considered a separately derived system. This main bonding jumper bonds the neutral bus to the ground bus and frame. However, if the neutral is not switched in the transfer switch, then you need to remove the jumper from the neutral bus to the grounding bus in the generator. The ground bus should still bonded to the frame, but not the neutral. In a nutshell, the 'main bonding jumper' should only exist in one place, and that is at the point of service. The way to tell if your transfer switch has a switched neutral is by the poles; most residential houses have a single phase two pole 240V service. If your transfer switch is two poles then it likely has a solid unswitched neutral aka (SN kit), but if it is three poles then it is a switched neutral. If you are just not sure what you have, then leave all the bonding jumpers in, it won't meet the code but it is much safer than removing the main bonding jumper when you need it.
Thanks Stormy. The transfer switch just passes the neutral from the generator straight through to my panel, it is not switched. I have removed the bonding jumper from the generator. I have confirmed with a meter that the neutral and ground at the generator are not bonded. When I plug in the 30 amp cable to the transfer switch and generator, the meter shows the bond is back.
The thing is, I have read so many horror stories here of what loose neutrals can do that I almost wonder if it would be better to just bond the generator, even though it's not code compliant.
In my head, I know that's not the right thing to do, but living through this was not pleasant.
@@bluesriderDF It does not meet code but half the generators I service are bonded and on and an unswitched neutral. I have never seen any of them with an issue because of it.
5:57 If I am not mistaken, your transfer switch is the first “panel” that the electricity flows through, whether running on power from the electric company or from the generator. When that is the case, your “main” breaker panel is a subpanel, and it must be wired as a subpanel is supposed to be wired by code. The big thing that must be done in a subpanel is ALL ground wires and ALL neutral wires have to be isolated from each other - they cannot share the same buss inside the panel. Seems that in your panel grounds and neutrals aren’t isolated from each other.
Mskes Sense
The load center which is energized from the PC is always the main panel. A sub panel can feed the main panel (or a portion of it) while distributing the isolated neutral and isolated grounds back to the Main panel bus bars along with the hot wires to circuit breakers. Just because the sub panel is back feeding power to the main panel does not mean the sub panel is now the main panel….
Each circuit on the transfer switch has 2 wires going into the main panel, a red and black. The red connects to the breaker you want to power. The black that was on the breaker is connected to the black from the t-switch. So power comes into main, goes to T-switch, then comes back into panel and out to the circuit in the house.
There is a neutral and ground from the T-switch L14 plug that is connected to the neutral and ground bars, respectively, in the panel. These are a straight pass through from the generator.
The transfer switch was made by Gen/Tran, which is now called Reliance Controls, based in California. They were owned by Generac for a time, and they still make my switch, under the name Pro/Tran. It is UL listed.
I believe you are correct, if I remember you should only have your neutral and ground bonded at the first point of disconnect, that would be your transfer switch auto or manual. ALL other panels should be wired like a sub panel. I just had to separate my main panel and add a larger ground buss.
@@bayouslots3143 - I know I’m correct, as you yourself discovered the ground and neutrals are to be separated in a subpanel. What’s unclear in this particular picture is why there are people who think the breaker panel hasn’t become a subpanel …
The generator survived the experience? The people who say hire an electrician for everything must be rich. I do dyi because I'm not rich and when I've hired electricians for major projects they haven't impressed me. Thanks for the info.
The generator survived and appears to be unfazed. Its main breaker tripped about five seconds into the event. I've always been a DIY'er with pretty much everything - houses, cars, motorcycles. If I had to pay someone every time you needed something done I couldn't afford half of the things I own.
Nobody's perfect...not even certified professionals.
Thank you! Great job!
I had a small power strip that I found had the hot and neutral reversed (I was getting buzzing/noise in my 40" monitor plugged into it). I had used it for decades. I opened it and swapped the wires (and tested it... and all my other strips as well, with a tester like you have).
Wow, maybe replace that strip with a new one.
Yes, actually that's how surge protectors work. They short out the line when voltage goes to high. If the breaker does not shut off, it will just burn itself up.
A surge protector is just a device that has high resistance up until a certain voltage and then it drops resistance rapidly acting like a crowbar circuit (it shorts out supply).
It's a little $0.10 device called a varister that sort of looks like a fat ceramic capacitor with two legs and its just soldered onto the hot and neutral and in some strips another is soldered between hot and ground. The reason why is burned up is because it was unable to trip the breaker.
Nice explanation 👍
That is true but surge protectors also need over current protection to prevent what happened to OP.
@@tomschmidt381 Surge protectors dont always have current protection. Most don't. The switch on top is just a plain rocker switch with a little backlight.
If it has a circuit breaker it will be a little black pop out style on the side like what some appliances have. The average surge strip you buy at walmart has zero protection besides the ability to short out when overvoltage occurs. So if you have a surge, the strip shorts out to clamp the voltage and will continue to do so until the circuit breaker in your house trips. If that does not happen, then the strip just self destructs.
Great Video. Thank you
You are welcome!
I'm checking my cable for sure! Thanks
My life is to serve as a warning example for others 😂
Nice one and that was definitely it. But surprised the MOVs in the surge arrestors clamped at such relatively low voltages. But maybe being old they didn't fully clamp, hence the heat build up and didn't trip a breaker sooner. Got lucky there for sure!
Wifey and I were jumpy for a week after this. I thought the whole place was gonna go up!
We had a similar issue at work. There was a problem with the building transformer that resulted in higher voltage to one of our buildings. We had surge suppressors on our computers, and one of them had a hole burned through the bottom and a burned spot on the carpet. The surge suppressor was only a couple of years old. The MOVs generate a lot of heat if the voltage remains high. They are more intended for short spikes in voltage. Think of it this way - the MOVs in the surge suppressor short the voltage to ground if it exceeds the voltage rating. An extended short to ground will generate a LOT of heat. After I saw what happened at work, I decided to buy only surge suppressors in metal enclosures. More recently, a friend of mine had a problem with high voltage in her house because of a problem at the electric pole. Her surge suppressors saved her equipment, but the MOVs burned up. Hers had metal enclosures, so the damage was limited to the inside of the surge suppressor enclosure.
@jaygosch8705 Thank you for this excellent information. I didn't think the surge protectors were faulty, I didn't think they were designed to handle that kind of juice.
@@bluesriderDF Jay has the best explaination so far. The surge suppressors are designed to work properly with ALL wires properly connected and a soild Ground Stake at the panel. The problem was clearly the Neutral on the cord was a faulty connection and all 4 were loose. Probably slipped passed Q.C. 20 years ago and who ever thinks or able to check a cord, especially under load as the Navy did. Seldom happens but clamps come loose, breakers fail, wires break, and not always someones fault.
The generator is single phase 240v…… the common (neutral) tapped at the midway point allows for 120v to each bussbar in your load center
Loosen or lift or borrow the neutral at the wrong place u will get 240v cycling thru 1/2 of your house
That's my understanding of exactly what happened. Thanks for your post 👍
Wild that a caboe you've been using without incident just suddenly isn't wired right. Circumstances changed and made a huge difference in this case.
Open neutrals are often disastrous. It's likely the Grenfell Tower fire that took down the 24 story building killing 70 people was started by a lost neutral. Instead of lighting up a surge protector it was a refrigerator. If I may, A couple of suggestions:
1) Never EVER use a surge suppressor housed in a non-metal enclosure. They're always based on metal oxide varistors called "MOVs". MOVs are great for dealing with voltage spikes. MOVs are completely incapable of handling anything longer than a few milliseconds. Their only response to extended over-voltage is to light-up! They catch fire. That's all they can do. Quality spike suppression equipment puts fuses in series with any MOVs to disconnect them on any faults that last more than a second. This, of course, stops protecting your downstream equipment. Remember, always use spike protection in metal enclosures so when the MOVs light up due to a utility issue, or a generator issue, or an open neutral, the metal will help dissipate the heat and not add fuel to the fire.
2) I recommend you install two phase lamps in your transfer panel. They can be industrial LEDs (what I used) or 3 or 4 watt night light type sockets and bulbs. They should be wired between each hot leg and the neutral. They will be on whenever power is there, from whatever source.
They should always be visually identical. If they're not... beware! You could have a bad connection, a dropped neutral, an unprotected overload. Whatever is happening, one glance will alert you. I have a solar and a utility panel. I've mounted two blue LED lamps on one and green on the other. It also tells me when if one of the sources is missing while looking pretty cool and being fun night lights.
Having seen many pictures of surge protector strips that melted down, some resulting in a fire, I have decided that I will only buy surge protectors that are in a metal case! A good one is fairly expensive but a lot cheaper than the deductible on the insurance policy. Plastic outlet strips that do Not contain surge suppression don't worry me as long as I don't load them heavily.
An ELCI main breaker would have caught this problem!
Also, these twist cable plugs are horrible and most people on boats that know anything about them change them for SmartPlug forms. I'm sorry for your trouble!
One important mistake you made (from what I can tell from this video) was you made a major change to your setup and didn't test it before you needed to use it.
You are correct.
Thank you so much!
Incidentally the main reason for why more than one path for neutral current is prohibited is not so much that it could take two paths, as that the ground conductor is not SIZED for the circuit current. The neutral is on the other hand is the right gauge for the circuit capacity.
The second reason is that the grounding conductor is not intended to carry any current under normal conditions, and also it is connected to surfaces that can be touched, whereas the neutral is always insulated, as it carries current, even if no voltage...
The ground conductor, depending on the situation, can be several gauges smaller than the current carrying conductors.
FYI, in code, grounds are typically referred to as 'groundING' conductor, and the neutral is referred to as a 'groundED' conductor...
NEC sections can require extra attention to wording sometimes...
Very interesting, thanks for posting this.
Had this same type problem with my grandmas house but it was power company fault, used copper connections on aluminum wire coming off pole and when it failed (20+ years later) it burned up several electronic devices. Power company blamed us for issue until they checked the pole and suddenly found the issue, probably would have charged us if I didn’t watch everything they did and saw the damaged connections.
It's never their fault until you catch them.
Power bars like the one in the video use a simple device known as an MOV (metal oxide varistor) connected between line and neutral, which does nothing until the voltage spikes above a certain threshold at which point it becomes a dead short. This short then trips the circuit breaker in the power bar. Many of these breakers are not very effective against dead shorts and weld themselves closed. If you are lucky the house breaker will then trip. There is a large selection of surge protectors out there, Choose them carefully, there are a lot of cheap imports around. I personally use computer grade UPC's for all my electronic gear.
Nice explanation, thank you!
Thank you
Surge protectors are designed to fail. They're the sacrificial lamb. They have metal oxide varistors in them that when voltage goes to high, resistance approaches infinity. With a high enough voltage, the current will blow through and destroy the MOV. Better there than what it's protecting. You should get a surge protector for your panel. They're more resistant to catastrophic failure and your appliances are more sensitive to voltage changes, especially refrigerators. Good thing you were home and everyone is safe.
Thank you. A whole house surge protector is next on my list!
Holy Moly Who would ever think of checking a Brand New Cable I never Did ! Im going to now !!!!!!!
I guess nothing can be taken for granted.
Are you driving a rod into the ground next to your gen to ground the gen to like most manuals say to do ?
The manual does not say to do that. It mentions it may be needed. My transfer switch keeps the neutral intact (most do), so a fault would be handled by the ground bond at the load center. This guy goes into it really well: th-cam.com/video/kXGs3QLF_sg/w-d-xo.html
So bottom line is unbond the generator when connecting to your house panel as the manufacturer recommends, but make sure you have a good cable....correct?
Make sure you have good connections all the way through from generator to your main panel. Anywhere there's a connection, there's the potential it could be loose.
If you use a single leg (120V only) generator and neutral or live gets loose you will lose all power, maybe the plug or whatever other loose connection starts arcing and catches fire too.
With a two leg 240V generator if the neutral gets loose the 240V will be distributed among the different connected devices according to their power consumption, causing those with higher consumption to receive a too low voltage and those with low consumption to receive a voltage that is too high. But the neutral can also arc inside the plug or wherever it's loose and cause a fire.
Marvelous video! Thank you. I assume your generator is still not bonded to ground?
Thank you so much! When I was running the generator at the end of the video it was in floating neutral configuration. That's how I plan to run it going forward.
remember everyone electricity requires wires WIRE EVERYWHERE FOR EVERYTHING no matter what. the power of the the cult of bumping particles compels you!!! Very good to hear you didnt catch the house on fire and have all your memories destroyed.
Thank you very much!
You are correct in unbonding the Generator frame. Loose coonections are the true cause of Electrical fires. You should check the terminal screws on your outlets and switches, my expectation is that many will take a 90-120 degree turn , if your home is more than 15-20 years old.
Well I never thought of that. Excellent, idea and I will be doing it.
I put new outlets and switches in my house. Didn't find any loose switches or receptacles but did find a couple that were so poorly stripped the wires were almost cut through and broke off as soon as I pulled the switch from the box. I tightened connections at the panel and found that all the connections on the side of the panel closest to the garage door were 1/4 to 1/2 turn loose. I suspect the greater temperature fluctuation near the door caused the connections to work loose over the few decades since the house was built.
Earthing and diverted neutrals is also becoming an issue here in the UK for 'similar' (though not exactly the same) reasons.
There's a lot of discussion about earth disconnects for EV vehicle chargers where (here in UK) there can be lots of other electrical services near the point of charging that end up (especially under latent fault conditions) with different 'local earth' potentials which is cross bonded produce large unexpected currents (the latent fault becomes potentially patent/obvious!).
Obviously if there is a local 'fault' causing your outage, you can have a similar unbalanced earth issues.
(edit: e.g. have a look at `e5 group`s webinars on diverted neutrals)
my first few days working at the motor shop, my boss would give me jobs that he " knew" what was wrong with it was always just a bad cord or a poorly connected plug end LOL Disappointed me because I wanted to tear the thing apart, but in the end just fixed cords for a few days. glad nothing too bad happened !!
That's funny! Sounds like a good boss. Thanks for commenting 👊
I had a similar problem with my generator cable. In my case, one of the hots came loose inside the connector. No smoke and fire but the power kept cycling on and off (maybe some safety in my generator not sure) until I powered down and fixed the connector. I have the smaller version of this same generator. Mine came from the factory unbonded with instructions for bonding if it will be attached to a standalone panel.
This video is a good demonstration of why not to buy any electrical items that has a plastic case.
That's about 95% of what's out there, unfortunately.
@@bluesriderDF That's why I put in the extra time, money and effort to buy all metal outlet strips. It's worth it, especially if you are on a fixed income and cannot afford homeowner's insurance.
The surge protectors uses MOVs (metal oxide varistors). Without a neutral bond you still has 2 phases but if there is a large current flow on one line, its voltage will drop. The other side has go up as there will be 240v across both lines. The MOVs are variable resistors, they conduct more as the voltage goes up. So a 120V rated MOV is going to pass far more current at 240v
Recently we had a new service, panel and generator transfer switch install by a 50 year veteran licenced Electrician. To test the system, we hooked up the generator, flipped the transfer switch, and instantly the generator breaker tripped. After 1/2 hour of troubleshooting, the Electrician found he installed two wires incorrectly, causing a ground fault.
EVERYONE makes mistakes.
@Teenagegoogoomuk This electrician does them all, but mostly commercial and industrial. The point is, one distraction is all that is necessary at ANY task.
@@ya472 Yep it only takes once.
Had same thing last year with APC surge suppressor. I determined that I had a spring missing on the generator throttle control. I had an over voltage then under voltage as mine was bogging down. Reported to APC they never sent return label as they stated to investigate why it caught fire. They also never mailed replacement as they stated they would for reporting it and it had a warranty.
I've been using APC products for over 30 years. I can't fault them in this instance. Because my generator did the damage, but i've lost a lot of faith in companies these days standing behind their products.
I would think they would have a fuse before the MOV protection, so if there is a sever overvoltage, it would blow the fuse or trip the breaker.
Did that APC surge protector have pop-out overload button/breaker?
@@troubleshooter1975 Yes it did. You can see it on the right side at 2:39, not tripped.
@@bluesriderDF - For me it looks like there are two problems.
If you lost neutral, then the devices should simply not work any more.
If you have 240V devices connected, they should run fine.
What I have seen there are 2 errors which happened:
1. A overvoltage from the generator
2. the surge supressor which was overheating and did not activate the over-temperature fuse.
The cable is in my opinion not the problem, even if the connection was possibly not good. The cable connector did not gerate heat, so there could not be the error.
@@mikropower01 Read what others more experienced than I said about the lost neutral. That was definitely the cause, it's a very dangerous thing.
While I can respect you detailed check of the whole house electrical system, I cannot understand why you would not check the cable FIRST!!! It's the most obvious potential culprit.
In my experience trouble shooting big concert sound and light systems, I always start at the source and work down to the loads. In 90% (or more)of the cases, it's a bad cable problem.
Anyway, glad you found the problem and thanks for posting.
In my experience in IT, the cable is usually NOT it, because that would be the easy fix. 😂
Is your unbonded generator connected to an Earth Ground (at or near the generator) of its own or does it get its earth ground (grounding rod) from your main panel's tie to the earth ground, grounding rod? Why?
My generator gets its ground from my service panel. Another video in the description about ground rods is worth watching.
@@bluesriderDF Thank you.
similar problem happened with me because of a loose neutral on a generator plug years ago.