hi glen, great video but there is a fundemental misunderstanding of the forces on the top anchor. When you are holding him static (you are on the ground) there is twice his weight on the top anchor (minus friction) so if he weighed 150lbs there would be ~300lbs on the top anchor, (150 on each strand in balance). If abbing there would be only be 150lbs. You can think of it as 2 stands - your weight on one his on another, if they are in balance neither of you moves. You will add to the load if/when dynamically moving (eg jumaring up the rope), so smooth is best.
Oh yes! You are absolutely right @robstone8782. Thank you for noting this here, as this information was not presented accurately in the video. This can be a great piece of education for others reading these comments. Rob did a good job of explaining why there is double the weight of the climber on the top piece of protection, but for those who didn't catch that, here is a simplified scenario to illustrate: Imagine you have a pulley hanging from a beam in your ceiling, and on one side of the pulley you attach your bulldog, which weighs 50lbs. To attach the dog you lift it up in the air so its legs are not touching the ground. In order to keep that dog off the ground, on the strand coming down from the other side of the pulley you attach your basset hound, which also weighs 50lbs. In this system, which is at equilibrium, you can suspend two 50lb dogs in the air without either dog being raised or lowered. The single point anchor at they pulley is holding the weight of both dogs, so 100lbs total (not just the 50lbs of the first dog). Now let's change the scenario a little. Let's say that everything remains the same, but instead of attaching your basset hound to keep your bulldog suspended you instead attach yourself, and you weigh 150lbs. If you were to lift your legs off the floor, then the bulldog would be sucked up toward the pulley and you would go back down to the floor because of the weight difference. During this transition the load on the anchor would increase somewhat for a short duration, but once your legs are back on the ground and the system is no longer bouncing then the force on the anchor would still be 100lbs. Why is it 100lbs and not 200lbs (your weight plus weight of the dog)? This is because the system is back at equilibrium, and neither load is going up or down. On your harness you should be able to feel the 50lb load of the dog which is pulling you up toward the anchor. In fact, if you stood on a scale, you would see that the scale would display your weight as 100lbs, which is 50lbs less than your actual weight (if it were a frictionless system). The 100lbs you see on the scale is the amount of force being put into the ground. So in this system you have 100lbs on the anchor (dog plus 50lbs of your body weight keeping the dog off the ground) and 100lbs of force going into the ground. In the rock rescue system demonstrated in the video the primary reason the rescuer should counterbalance climb is because of what would happen should the highest piece of protection fail. If the rescuer is climbing the rock, and the upper piece fails, then the rope will catch on the next piece of protection and pull the rescuer UP toward the piece that held. But if the rescuer is climbing the rope instead of the rock, and the upper piece fails, then the rescuer will fall because the rope is also falling to the next piece of protection. This greatly increases the chance of injuring of the rescuer. Counterbalance climbing does also result in a lower force on the anchor than climbing the rope, mostly because you can generally climb more smoothly than you can ascend a rope (Rob mentions this when talking about jugging/aiding), but it does not reduce the force on the anchor to become that of the climber you are rescuing. Thanks so much for catching this and sharing Rob!
@@skillsforclimbing no worries, i'm an instructor here in UK and i like seeing how things are done over the pond (not much different in this - other than locking of the plate) and your videos are excellent
@@robstone8782 Thanks so much for your supportive comments. Yeah, I enjoy seeing how climbing systems are employed by different people and in different countries as well. My videos by no means represent a specific standard that is followed by all climbers or guides in the US. As a certified guide, I have passed several rescue exams, but none of the rescue scenarios used in exams were similar to the one presented in this video. In other words, this is my own solution here and not one that is endorsed or vetted by the AMGA or other certifying bodies. For the video I wanted to present a much simpler scenario than those in guide exams, that would involve fewer technical systems, and that is generally more relevant to the climbing public. It's fun to hear that similar systems are used by climbers in the UK. Enjoy the instructing!
Most of your videos are great but this one seems to miss. Aside from much of the video emphasizing an incorrect understanding of the forces on the top gear piece you also spend a ton of time rigging a conventional rappel when you could have self lowered with almost none of that setup time.
Really well done video! You’re a great instructor - l like all your vids. They are well thought out, clearly explained, and easy to follow. Who are you guiding for now in the PNW?
Wow, thank you for such a positive comment @booger5514! Much appreciated. These days I am guiding part-time, as I've gone back to school for nursing. I work for Yosemite Mountaineering School (in Yosemite Valley) in the summer and for a few smaller companies on weekends. I will be guiding in Nepal again this fall.
Lovely video! What are your options for a similar scenario on a bolted route, without having any cams or nuts at your disposal, just quickdraws? Try to improvice an anchor with a bolt + a sling around a rock or something?
Thanks for the question@lennmusicman! For a bolted route the system is very similar. Counter-balance climb until your partner is on the ground, and then have them put you on belay. Continue climbing until you reach a bolt that is unquestionably strong (continue reading to see what to do if you can't judge the strength). Put a locking carabiner into this bolt, and lock it closed. This locking carabiner will serve as a master-point which you can attach yourself to and through which you can thread the rappel rope. Using a locking carabiner as a master point solves a few problems: 1) it reduces or eliminates the liklihood of breaking a carabiner that is holding your body weight. This could happen if you clip directly into a bolt hanger that has a protruding bolt which causes leverage on the carabiner attachment for your leash. It's a bit difficult to describe this, but several sport climbing accidents have happened when climbers fell, and broke carabiners that levered between the hanger and a protruding bolt. A bit easier to understand is the problem with threading a rope through a hanger that you are also clipped into, which is very tight and the rope is easily pinched which makes it difficult. At the end of this response I've included a video showing the problem with multiple carabiners clipped into a small bolt hanger. So first add a locking carabiner to use as a master point, and then attach yourself with your personal anchor or another tether system. Have your partner who is on the ground untie from the end of the rope, making sure there is not a knot in the end. Pull that end through all the gear you are leaving behind on the wall, and when the end gets to you set-up a rappel to another bomber bolt, and repeat the process until you are down. Remember, protection bolts are designed to handle very high forces in a fall, so if they are placed well in good rock then they should easily handle the force of a rappel. However, bad bolts and bad placements do exist. If you have any question about the ability of a bolt to handle the force of a rappel, then it's better to back-it-up. OK, so how do you do that? You can use the climbing rope to attach one bolt to another, and do a single rope rap to the ground, but that is a bit difficult to talk through in text. So to keep it simple let's say that as you lowered the leader you snagged a cordalete off of her harness. In this scenario your belayer gets to the ground, and then she puts you on belay. Then you climb up 2-bolts past where you were put on belay. Attach the cordalete to the second bolt you reach (the higher of the two) with a carabiner, and then have your partner lower you back down to the bolt below. Tie an over-hand knot in the cordalete and clip a carabiner above the knot, and then clip that to the lower bolt so there is almost no slack in the cordalete between the two bolts you clipped. This won't make the bolts completely equalized, but should make it so that if the lower bolt fails the upper bolt will take the load with a minimum of slack. Now set-up the rappel as described above. I hope this helps! And here is a good video demonstrating the danger of clipping multiple carabiners in a single bolt hanger. Enjoy! th-cam.com/video/-yTWcVaCRlg/w-d-xo.html
Thanks for a great video Glen. Can you at some point make a leader rescue on a traverse(less than half rope length or more than half rope length out) where a leader falls and needs a rescue. I imagine this situation can be very complicated.
At some point I would love to. Depending on the complexity of the scenario that would likely need to be a video series, as there are many sub-skills needed to enact a rescue. Having a good background in aid climbing is a big plus. But I can talk you through a simple scenario right here! In the simplest scenario you are on the first or second pitch of a climb, and your lead climber falls on a piece that is less than one full rope length from the ground. For example you are on the second pitch of a route, which is traversing to the right, and your lead climber falls. You check the topo and see that you are about 40 meters above the ground and you have a 60 meter rope. In this case you would counter-balance climb toward your climber and clean as you go, as demonstrated in the video, until your climber is on the ground (there's a good chance it will be an uncomfortable landing down there- could be bushes or even cactuses- so to keep the scenario at its simplest we will say whatever discomfort they experience upon reaching the ground is acceptable). Once the climber is on the ground they can then belay you. Continue to climb until you can construct an anchor. Attach the the anchor. Now have your partner untie from the rope, making sure there is no knot in the end. Now pull the free-end of the rope up to you. It's important there is no knot, because it will jam in gear that will remain on the pitch. Once you have the end of the rope then secure it to your anchor and do a single-strand rappel to the ground (40m on the 60m rope) or if time is not of the essence, or getting your gear is important for getting the rest of the way off of a feature, then set-up a rappel on your constructed anchor as normal. Do a rap that is at least 10 meters long, and then build another anchor with the gear you cleaned in order to reach the ground with a 30m rap. Retrieve your rope and get help.
Great video! I don't quite understand something though. At the beginning of the video you said that the lead fell from 50m up and you had a 60m rope. Let's say the lead was above the last piece 2m when they fell, fell 4m, and is now 2m below the top piece. that puts them 46m off the deck. You can lower them 10 meters with your remaining rope so that puts the lead 36m off the ground. To get them to the ground you must climb up at least 36m. You can only build your anchor there or higher. How do you double rope rappel 36m on a 60m rope? You can of course do a single rope rappel and add 12m of cordelette (if you have it) to the other side as a tag line or you could make two rappels out of it if you have enough gear, but I didn't see you do that. Of course this isn't a problem if they fall from lower or you can lower your partner to 30m or less. If they fell from much higher than that (say from 55 down to 52 then lowered to 47), I don't see how this technique is possible if you need to retrieve the rope for the next rappel, unless its multiple rappels or using a really long tag line. Please correct me if I'm missing something because this really was a great video.
This is an excellent observation! Thanks for the question! Ok, so let's assume the pitch is straight up-and-down (no traversing), and the rappel line will be no straighter than the climbing line. Let's also assume that the fall happened on a piece of gear that was more than 45m off the ground. Finally, let's assume that the base of the route is flat, without terrain to either side that is higher than other terrain (no hills, boulders, higher ledge systems, etc). In this scenario then you will need to use one of the solutions you mentioned (build a secondary anchor, use a make-shift pull-cord, fix the rope and rap, down lead, etc). 45m would be the magic number because this means you would have 15 meters of rope left over at the base of the pitch to lower the injured climber. At this point the injured climber would be exactly 30m off the deck when the rope comes tight to your harness, and you would counter-balance-climb 30 meters to get them on the ground. After constructing an anchor you would be able to rappel down with a 60m rope (just barely). If the pitch has traverses, the gear in the pitch causes the rope to weave a bit, if the base of the route is uneven and the injured climber can rest on higher ground, or if you can rappel and land on higher ground yourself then you may be able to save yourself construction of a second anchor, use of a pull-cord, or down climbing, but not always. Thankfully such a specific scenario is rare, and solutions are usually relatively simple. Thanks for watching and providing your thoughts!
hi glen, great video but there is a fundemental misunderstanding of the forces on the top anchor. When you are holding him static (you are on the ground) there is twice his weight on the top anchor (minus friction) so if he weighed 150lbs there would be ~300lbs on the top anchor, (150 on each strand in balance). If abbing there would be only be 150lbs. You can think of it as 2 stands - your weight on one his on another, if they are in balance neither of you moves. You will add to the load if/when dynamically moving (eg jumaring up the rope), so smooth is best.
Oh yes! You are absolutely right @robstone8782. Thank you for noting this here, as this information was not presented accurately in the video. This can be a great piece of education for others reading these comments. Rob did a good job of explaining why there is double the weight of the climber on the top piece of protection, but for those who didn't catch that, here is a simplified scenario to illustrate: Imagine you have a pulley hanging from a beam in your ceiling, and on one side of the pulley you attach your bulldog, which weighs 50lbs. To attach the dog you lift it up in the air so its legs are not touching the ground. In order to keep that dog off the ground, on the strand coming down from the other side of the pulley you attach your basset hound, which also weighs 50lbs. In this system, which is at equilibrium, you can suspend two 50lb dogs in the air without either dog being raised or lowered. The single point anchor at they pulley is holding the weight of both dogs, so 100lbs total (not just the 50lbs of the first dog). Now let's change the scenario a little. Let's say that everything remains the same, but instead of attaching your basset hound to keep your bulldog suspended you instead attach yourself, and you weigh 150lbs. If you were to lift your legs off the floor, then the bulldog would be sucked up toward the pulley and you would go back down to the floor because of the weight difference. During this transition the load on the anchor would increase somewhat for a short duration, but once your legs are back on the ground and the system is no longer bouncing then the force on the anchor would still be 100lbs. Why is it 100lbs and not 200lbs (your weight plus weight of the dog)? This is because the system is back at equilibrium, and neither load is going up or down. On your harness you should be able to feel the 50lb load of the dog which is pulling you up toward the anchor. In fact, if you stood on a scale, you would see that the scale would display your weight as 100lbs, which is 50lbs less than your actual weight (if it were a frictionless system). The 100lbs you see on the scale is the amount of force being put into the ground. So in this system you have 100lbs on the anchor (dog plus 50lbs of your body weight keeping the dog off the ground) and 100lbs of force going into the ground.
In the rock rescue system demonstrated in the video the primary reason the rescuer should counterbalance climb is because of what would happen should the highest piece of protection fail. If the rescuer is climbing the rock, and the upper piece fails, then the rope will catch on the next piece of protection and pull the rescuer UP toward the piece that held. But if the rescuer is climbing the rope instead of the rock, and the upper piece fails, then the rescuer will fall because the rope is also falling to the next piece of protection. This greatly increases the chance of injuring of the rescuer. Counterbalance climbing does also result in a lower force on the anchor than climbing the rope, mostly because you can generally climb more smoothly than you can ascend a rope (Rob mentions this when talking about jugging/aiding), but it does not reduce the force on the anchor to become that of the climber you are rescuing. Thanks so much for catching this and sharing Rob!
@@skillsforclimbing no worries, i'm an instructor here in UK and i like seeing how things are done over the pond (not much different in this - other than locking of the plate) and your videos are excellent
@@robstone8782 Thanks so much for your supportive comments. Yeah, I enjoy seeing how climbing systems are employed by different people and in different countries as well. My videos by no means represent a specific standard that is followed by all climbers or guides in the US. As a certified guide, I have passed several rescue exams, but none of the rescue scenarios used in exams were similar to the one presented in this video. In other words, this is my own solution here and not one that is endorsed or vetted by the AMGA or other certifying bodies. For the video I wanted to present a much simpler scenario than those in guide exams, that would involve fewer technical systems, and that is generally more relevant to the climbing public. It's fun to hear that similar systems are used by climbers in the UK. Enjoy the instructing!
What a great exchange this was. You make great videos and set an excellent example of always staying curious and humble.
Most of your videos are great but this one seems to miss.
Aside from much of the video emphasizing an incorrect understanding of the forces on the top gear piece you also spend a ton of time rigging a conventional rappel when you could have self lowered with almost none of that setup time.
Really well done video! You’re a great instructor - l like all your vids. They are well thought out, clearly explained, and easy to follow. Who are you guiding for now in the PNW?
Wow, thank you for such a positive comment @booger5514! Much appreciated. These days I am guiding part-time, as I've gone back to school for nursing. I work for Yosemite Mountaineering School (in Yosemite Valley) in the summer and for a few smaller companies on weekends. I will be guiding in Nepal again this fall.
Thank you very much for this detailed and helpful video! You have a great teaching style
Thanks for the positive feedback @AndrewDale1986!
6:26 in fact the top piece always see the same weight except during a dynamic fall. The piece is always holding a rope that hold two people
Lovely video! What are your options for a similar scenario on a bolted route, without having any cams or nuts at your disposal, just quickdraws? Try to improvice an anchor with a bolt + a sling around a rock or something?
Thanks for the question@lennmusicman! For a bolted route the system is very similar. Counter-balance climb until your partner is on the ground, and then have them put you on belay. Continue climbing until you reach a bolt that is unquestionably strong (continue reading to see what to do if you can't judge the strength). Put a locking carabiner into this bolt, and lock it closed. This locking carabiner will serve as a master-point which you can attach yourself to and through which you can thread the rappel rope. Using a locking carabiner as a master point solves a few problems: 1) it reduces or eliminates the liklihood of breaking a carabiner that is holding your body weight. This could happen if you clip directly into a bolt hanger that has a protruding bolt which causes leverage on the carabiner attachment for your leash. It's a bit difficult to describe this, but several sport climbing accidents have happened when climbers fell, and broke carabiners that levered between the hanger and a protruding bolt. A bit easier to understand is the problem with threading a rope through a hanger that you are also clipped into, which is very tight and the rope is easily pinched which makes it difficult. At the end of this response I've included a video showing the problem with multiple carabiners clipped into a small bolt hanger. So first add a locking carabiner to use as a master point, and then attach yourself with your personal anchor or another tether system. Have your partner who is on the ground untie from the end of the rope, making sure there is not a knot in the end. Pull that end through all the gear you are leaving behind on the wall, and when the end gets to you set-up a rappel to another bomber bolt, and repeat the process until you are down. Remember, protection bolts are designed to handle very high forces in a fall, so if they are placed well in good rock then they should easily handle the force of a rappel. However, bad bolts and bad placements do exist. If you have any question about the ability of a bolt to handle the force of a rappel, then it's better to back-it-up.
OK, so how do you do that? You can use the climbing rope to attach one bolt to another, and do a single rope rap to the ground, but that is a bit difficult to talk through in text. So to keep it simple let's say that as you lowered the leader you snagged a cordalete off of her harness. In this scenario your belayer gets to the ground, and then she puts you on belay. Then you climb up 2-bolts past where you were put on belay. Attach the cordalete to the second bolt you reach (the higher of the two) with a carabiner, and then have your partner lower you back down to the bolt below. Tie an over-hand knot in the cordalete and clip a carabiner above the knot, and then clip that to the lower bolt so there is almost no slack in the cordalete between the two bolts you clipped. This won't make the bolts completely equalized, but should make it so that if the lower bolt fails the upper bolt will take the load with a minimum of slack. Now set-up the rappel as described above. I hope this helps!
And here is a good video demonstrating the danger of clipping multiple carabiners in a single bolt hanger. Enjoy!
th-cam.com/video/-yTWcVaCRlg/w-d-xo.html
Could you make a video on how to make a V anchor with a tether or life line?
Thanks for a great video Glen. Can you at some point make a leader rescue on a traverse(less than half rope length or more than half rope length out) where a leader falls and needs a rescue. I imagine this situation can be very complicated.
At some point I would love to. Depending on the complexity of the scenario that would likely need to be a video series, as there are many sub-skills needed to enact a rescue. Having a good background in aid climbing is a big plus. But I can talk you through a simple scenario right here!
In the simplest scenario you are on the first or second pitch of a climb, and your lead climber falls on a piece that is less than one full rope length from the ground. For example you are on the second pitch of a route, which is traversing to the right, and your lead climber falls. You check the topo and see that you are about 40 meters above the ground and you have a 60 meter rope. In this case you would counter-balance climb toward your climber and clean as you go, as demonstrated in the video, until your climber is on the ground (there's a good chance it will be an uncomfortable landing down there- could be bushes or even cactuses- so to keep the scenario at its simplest we will say whatever discomfort they experience upon reaching the ground is acceptable). Once the climber is on the ground they can then belay you. Continue to climb until you can construct an anchor. Attach the the anchor. Now have your partner untie from the rope, making sure there is no knot in the end. Now pull the free-end of the rope up to you. It's important there is no knot, because it will jam in gear that will remain on the pitch. Once you have the end of the rope then secure it to your anchor and do a single-strand rappel to the ground (40m on the 60m rope) or if time is not of the essence, or getting your gear is important for getting the rest of the way off of a feature, then set-up a rappel on your constructed anchor as normal. Do a rap that is at least 10 meters long, and then build another anchor with the gear you cleaned in order to reach the ground with a 30m rap. Retrieve your rope and get help.
Great video! I don't quite understand something though. At the beginning of the video you said that the lead fell from 50m up and you had a 60m rope. Let's say the lead was above the last piece 2m when they fell, fell 4m, and is now 2m below the top piece. that puts them 46m off the deck. You can lower them 10 meters with your remaining rope so that puts the lead 36m off the ground. To get them to the ground you must climb up at least 36m. You can only build your anchor there or higher. How do you double rope rappel 36m on a 60m rope?
You can of course do a single rope rappel and add 12m of cordelette (if you have it) to the other side as a tag line or you could make two rappels out of it if you have enough gear, but I didn't see you do that.
Of course this isn't a problem if they fall from lower or you can lower your partner to 30m or less. If they fell from much higher than that (say from 55 down to 52 then lowered to 47), I don't see how this technique is possible if you need to retrieve the rope for the next rappel, unless its multiple rappels or using a really long tag line. Please correct me if I'm missing something because this really was a great video.
This is an excellent observation! Thanks for the question! Ok, so let's assume the pitch is straight up-and-down (no traversing), and the rappel line will be no straighter than the climbing line. Let's also assume that the fall happened on a piece of gear that was more than 45m off the ground. Finally, let's assume that the base of the route is flat, without terrain to either side that is higher than other terrain (no hills, boulders, higher ledge systems, etc). In this scenario then you will need to use one of the solutions you mentioned (build a secondary anchor, use a make-shift pull-cord, fix the rope and rap, down lead, etc). 45m would be the magic number because this means you would have 15 meters of rope left over at the base of the pitch to lower the injured climber. At this point the injured climber would be exactly 30m off the deck when the rope comes tight to your harness, and you would counter-balance-climb 30 meters to get them on the ground. After constructing an anchor you would be able to rappel down with a 60m rope (just barely).
If the pitch has traverses, the gear in the pitch causes the rope to weave a bit, if the base of the route is uneven and the injured climber can rest on higher ground, or if you can rappel and land on higher ground yourself then you may be able to save yourself construction of a second anchor, use of a pull-cord, or down climbing, but not always. Thankfully such a specific scenario is rare, and solutions are usually relatively simple.
Thanks for watching and providing your thoughts!
Fantastic video! Thank you :)
Well done!
Thanks so much @gregggagliardi6231!