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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ม.ค. 2025
- I made this video because tbh I'm exhausted from the wars over the LTD in this game. And I know that a lot of you can agree with me on that. In this video I go over my experiences with the game, how I came to change my mind about the LTD and what I think we can all learn to do better when we enter these debates. I hope that this will help create a better community, but I also understand that this will fall on a lot of deaf ears. Regardless of that, I still feel like these things need to be said.
Thanks for keeping it respectful in the comments so far. I just want to clarify something real quick. When I talked about how there isn’t a canon ship (at least not yet) and we have to accept that there might never be, in the spirit of trying to be fair I left out my true feelings. I DO in fact hope there will be a canon, not just to make things clear of what a lot of us have always known the story to be, but also so this really annoying debate can finally be put to rest. BUT, I have to acknowledge that there is a possibility that square (especially from the English localization end of things) will continue to milk the LTD and keep things ambiguous for the sake of discussion to continue around this.
I honestly think it’s fine to have the opinion that there won’t ever be a canon. I was just acknowledging that there is a possibility of that and that I’m preparing for that just in case. But I am hoping that certain events that will happen in Part 3 will make things crystal clear.
Anyway, thanks again for keeping the discussions very respectful. As a reminder, I would also like to see what you guys would like me to cover next that doesn’t have anything to do with the LTD.
@@SNWSTORM Django, cover the possibility of him being in part 3, and how this is an opportunity to explore much of what we don't know about Nanaki's race
@ Ooh! That’s interesting. I definitely want to learn more myself. I already have an idea of a video to do about Red, but I will definitely do one about this topic as well
The thing shippers of both sides refuse to aknowledge is that Cloud is absolutely not in a position where he can be in a relationship with anyone by the time the date sequence happens at the Gold saucer. He's so unbalanced, confused and in a constant state of denial at that point he'd just ruin any relationship even if he found his "true love" in the group.
That being said, Cloud and Aerith do have a genuine chemistry and I don't think it is just born of some mental fusion with Zack or whatever as so many people seem to think. Cloud and Zack have very different personalities all along and I think Cloud has just built an ideal heroic version of himself using his memories of his dead friends but remained Cloud nonetheless. The fact is he remains the heroic Cloud we've known during the first part of the game while he accepts his past.
To be honest, I've always thought Cloud had feelings for both girls but was unable to express them properly, and by the time he was finally awake, Aerith was long dead anyway so the shipping question was pretty much irrelevant.
As it was stated a few times in interviews back in the day, Aerith was conceived as the strange and mysterious (but amazing) girl who've been transfered to your high school that stays for a year then goes away again, while Tifa represents the child's love you've always known. They're both relationship archetypes Japanese people would recognize instantly and are therefore both totally valid. But, yet again, those were made in a time before social medias where everything got to be polarized and every subject has to be a source of conflict between strangers. 😒
But the problem is that he has never expressed any romantic interest in anyone other than Tifa and the Ultimanias reffer to Aeirth as his _friend_. As you said "you thought" he had feelings for both, yet there is only cold hard evidence for him having had feelings for one of them and as the compilation has grown larger, with novels, sequals and prequals it has again only ever been one woman that he has expressed an interest in. And not to mention the expansion of Zack (he was virtually less developed than Dyne was in OG) and they quite litterally retconned his reasons for going to Midgar to be that he wanted Aerith. And as for your comment that Cloud isn't like Zack.... Well Aerith says he is. Her own words are that she saw Zack when she looked at Cloud.
So with that said, what is more likley in your opinion: That the developers made Cloud is interested in both girls or that the developers have Aerith be presented as a love interest in the narrative to make her brutal death shocking an unexpected?
I go for the later. Upon close scrutiny, Cloud never makes a move on her, yet does so with Tifa and we know the reveal is that he has been in love with her since he was kid comes in the Lifestream. So what is the developers intentions and not our personal beliefs, opinions or desires?
If it was supposed to be both, both girls would have gotten a kiss on the GS date in Rebirth and both would have had a "near" kiss that is interupted in the non-optional scenes. But that only happens with Tifa.
As for shipping in fanfiction? I'm pro Clerith, Cloti, Zakura, even Sephikura there. I'm an avid reader of fan fiction and there are trully awesome stories out there with all manner of ships. But the core issue in the FF7 fandom is the portion of fans who lack the fundamental inability to separate a subjectively personal prefference over the actual story presented.
@@Mukation Well, Aerith says she was amazed to see how much Cloud looked like Zack at first since he even moves and carries himself the way Zack did but she then says she's realized during their time together he was his own person. Cloud was never Zack at any point.
Let's not forget that Aerith has spent a lot more time with Cloud than she ever did with Zack, in the end. 😂
I'm sorry but I don't have the same interpretation of these relationships than you do. To me, Cloud not kissing Aerith in their date doesn't mean he is more into Tifa even if you've followed the "Aerith road" during your playthrough. It's just that they express their affection in a different way. Tifa and Cloud show their affection in a more physical way and Aerith and Cloud on a more emotional level but both can perceived as valid for a given playthrough. Tifa and Cloud's kiss is a way for them to deal with their attraction at a moment where they just can't have a serious talk about their past, their feelings and their relationship for, as I've already said, Cloud is absolutely not in a place where he can be with anyone at that point of the story.
Cloud and Aerith have an even more complicated relationship than that, especially since they both have things that hold them back, but you can't seriously say they are just friends if you've followed an Aerith romance on your run.
You do have a point saying they've gradually retconned Zack and Aerith's relationship but I've done both a Tifa and an Aerith playthrough (a thing I also did in OG back in the day) and I insist on the fact that both of them work pretty well even in this new trilogy. They've actually done things with enough care to make you feel like you've done the right choice ne matter what you chose, some dialogues are not exactly the same during Cloud and Aerith's final date for instance.
Aerith and Tifa have a different role to play for the protagonist in the story but they both have an impact on his psyche. Aerith, being a very empathetic person, is the one who starts to melt his armor and put him on rails that lead him to care about others. Tifa, being Cloud's anchor, is the one who helps him to become whole after all his trauma.
The dating part of these two relationships is just the cherry on the cake for players if they wish to follow that road but for some reason it has become the entire plotline for some people.
@Oleus That she is important to Cloud and that all his companions have a role in building Cloud back up again and have him find his humanity is not the question here, the question is romantic interest and no matter how you sugar coat it, we have nearly 3 decades of compilations and Ultimanias that specifically only puts Clouds romantic interest on a single person and it isn't Aerith.
And Aerith is specifically never reffered to as anything other than his friend from his point of view in the Ultimanias.
@Mukation yeah, so basically I'm saying all shippers are wrong in their approach and you're saying "Right. Tifa's romance is canon though and everyone who thinks otherwis is delusional and doesn't understands this story." 😒
Good talk pal, but let's stop it right there before we start going in circles, and you're not exactly bringing any new or more convincing evidence than other people from your side of the argument.
@@Oleus No, you're presenting your opinion while he presents the facts and you can't understand that they don't carry the same weight. Have whatever opinion you want, and ship whoever you want, but stop trying to push your headcanon on the rest of the fandom. It isn't a matter of canon or not, Tifa is the ONLY romance outside of fanfiction. That's just a cold hard fact. On top of that, we have the lead director of the project come out and let it be known straight up that Aerith's relationship with Cloud is sisterly. I don't know how much more of a clue people need before they come to grips with the fact that their headcanon is just that and nothing more.
I don't care about the ships so much as I care about the story and characters. I've had nearly 30 years of Aerith fans trying to bastardize and misconstrue the story and the characters to fit their twisted fanfiction version of things. Well now the Remakes have spoken and the Lead Director himself has spoken, and they both tell me I've been right all along. So yea, I'm done with people's "opinions" when I have the lead director's opinion and I have the games themselves which clearly show me Cloud nearly kissing Tifa before actually kissing Tifa, and have him verbally confirm his feelings for her, while none of that exists with Aerith in any version of the games. But but but my opinon, yea, your opinion and $5 will get you a cup of coffee.
I think where you stand on the CloTi and Clerith debate has a lot to do with what kind of tropes you're into. Are you into childhood friends to lovers, or are you into the introverted badass falling for the extroverted pixie dream girl? And on the whole there's nothing wrong with preferring one or the other. But if you find yourself getting heated one of the things I would encourage doing is engaging in fanwork outside your comfort zone. Fanart, fanfiction, and really try to look at it and try to understand why a ship you may not believe in makes the author/artist tick . I've been a CloTi since being exposed to the Zerith ship, but I made a friend that genuinely has made some of the most beautiful Clerith art I've ever seen, and I've come away looking at their artwork with such a better understanding of what that ship means to people.I know this is a bit TED-talky for a TH-cam comment but if I can make at least one person ponder their stance then I've done what I set out to do. Thank you.
@@SmashBrosOdyssey64 Definitely fanart and fanfiction have their place and it’s a cool way to combine creativity and fandom. I especially love fanart as an artist myself. There really is some beautiful work out there. Some is definitely crazy (especially a lot of fanfiction), but it’s a good outlet. This is a really good suggestion.
As far as what you want to ship yea. As far as what actually happens in the games, no. Shipping is fun, ship whoever, just be able to separate that from reality.
Looking forward to you video on Cloud's mental health and any theories you have for what might be going on with him.
@@elfsong713 It might take a while as I have a LOT to say about it because his mental health is probably the most interesting thing to me about this game, but I can’t wait to make that video either ☺️
Honestly, this whole love triangle discourse took me completely by surprise. My sister made me aware of it recently and maybe I'm just blind but was romance really all anyone got from the game? Because I really felt the developer emphasis on relationships (i.e. not necessarily romantic ones) to be the emotional and gameplay core of the game. I kind of blame the whole forced LTD on western publicity trends encouraging polarizing discourse to drum up sales like with the Twilight saga. Even if you didn't follow that whole mess, I think it's just how many have been wired to interact with a franchise through what ends up often being its least common denominator.
It's why I stay on the gameplay challenge-oriented side of this game. I find discussion within those communities to be wholly agreeable and uplifting, far away from those horror stories.
Even though I would really love to share my experience and views as someone who never played the original and fell in love with this story, it's not worth the sourness and the headache of sticking my neck out. There's so many things this game does beautifully that I really hope these shenanigans don't end up estranging the player community from its creators and contributors.
It's fine to be adamant and vocal in your views but as you mentioned, it's even ruining first impressions and that's where I draw the line. I will always treasure my first magical experience with these remakes. NO-ONE should have that taken away from them.
You’re not wrong about the more prominent western foisting of the whole love triangle. So far, it is pushed in the EN localization far more than it is in the original JP in this Remake trilogy when you compare it side by side. It seems to thrive off of it when it just blatantly isn’t there in the original language. I also blame marketing for riling up and inflaming the fandom on purpose.
In the end, the story is the story, regardless of people’s preference or the tweaking the EN localization tries to do to incite arguments. It doesn’t mean people can’t have their preferences; it just means people who have preferences different than the story outcome shouldn’t be out there trying to demean it, or the devs, just because it didn’t give them their desired conclusion.
This seems to be happening in the AoT fandom right now with people who were dissatisfied with the ending making up their own animated finale. Inherently, that’s totally okay. Fan-made art should be fun and creative, and maybe even a departure from canon. But it’s when it is pushed as the “better” ending that it gets disrespectful. So, as Remake part 3 comes closer, I hope people will still enjoy their preferences without attacking the actual story and its creators.
@@jenniferchoughLet's not kid ourselves, the difference between the English text and the Japanese text when it comes to "incite arguments" is pretty quite minimum. I played it in Japanese first, and while it's true there are a few lines in the English localization that lean more in that direction, it's still the same direction the original leans towards.
But even leaving that aside, the truth is blaming Western marketing strategies for this is just naive. Toxic shipping wars have been a staple of fiction for literally centuries, if not since humanity exists. If you don't believe me, just look up what Louisa May Alcott, the author of "Little Women", had to endure because of the whole Jo-Laurie-Amy thing. And that was back in the freaking 19th century!
Talking about FF7 specifically, I'm an OG fan since the days it first came out, and I can assure you these shipping wars appeared spontaneously on their own, without any aid external to the text itself. And yes, that applies to the Japanese text as well.
@@jenniferchough Absolutely! People need to understand the line between their fanfiction and the story the creators chose to tell. If they want to write their own end, that is fine, but they shouldn't throw a fit if it doesn't go their way. I am just here to experience the story the way it is being told, and I hope for a satisfying resolution for all the characters.
Hashtag Team Jacob! JK, I don't even like Twilight! 😂
Almost 30 years later, this is still going on.
@@Ronin_2004 ikr
Thanks for making this and i understand the frustration of the LTD, but its hard to not acknowledge it or fall into the trap of getting into personal bias and debates with it at times.
To answer the end of your video question, id love to see some videos analyzing the psyche and backstories and personal relationships of these caharacters more in depth! I know theres lots, but i feel with you having an aawareness of trying to divulge from the LTD, itd make it more character focused and less shippy like some of the other videos.
For my own persoanl thoughts now, i agree that there is no canon ship, there never will be an exclusively named one and this is very intentional and always has been. Devs have gone out of their way, and im sure most of them have their own headcanons, to make sure anything we feel can be permitted and rationalized. The problem is all of us have this bias at some point and speak of it as complete trith when truly it is just our own truths shared with several others.
I used to be a die hard Cloti primarily because Tifa was my favorite character but i was young and over time i came to the harsh realization that I was projecting my own wants and desires in real life on the characters. I just felt personally that just like me, over time Tifa deserved better than what she was getting. I played more games and spin offs and inevitably saw Clerith as the better pairing that was unfortunately short lived. It was really a realization for my own toxic relationships and moving on and growing as a person. It sounds silly, but this is my experience and why.
We all have our own, maybe some personal and some not so much. But theres a reason people come to support and believe what they do. The part i get triggered with is when people declare it as absolute truth when none of them are and this is intentionally done no matter how much evidence we each think we have, there are two sides and it was masterfully crafted this way.
We just need to respect our differences, agree to disagree and know that the devs are likely in the same boats we are, pushing the ultimate reasoning why there will never be an official one size fits all shipping.
So the fact that the lead director of the Remakes said point blank that Aerith's relationship with Cloud is sisterly, isn't enough to make you realize there's only one romance in the game? As fas as I'm concerned, that is your official answer from SE on the supposed love triangle. If you refuse to accept it that's on you I guess, but at this point you are arguing with Hamaguchi, not Clotis. It will never stop people from shipping, and that's fine, people ship Cloud and Sephiroth too. I don't see where this is a legitimate debate anymore though after the kiss in Rebirth and Hamaguchi's quote. I just don't get it. It seems insane to me to still argue for Aerith when the head person in charge of the entire remake project says her relationship with Cloud is sisterly. To each their own I guess. Sweet Home Claerithbama.
@talmanes4589 I stopped reading your comment because devs also said years ago that Tifa had a maternal relationship with Cloud. So what does that mean? People are just so purposefully ignorant and focus on what they choose to blindly. It is very obvious the sisterly comment was not meant to be taken the way you're taking it otherwise this means Cloud also wants a relationship with his mom. They also stated that Tifa and Cloud wouldnt do well even without Sephiroth and geostigma but "maybe things wouldve been better with Aerith". Again, very easy to take things out of context but even that statement i mentioned isnt as clear as it seems. Stop looking at things at face value to support your cause and actually look at things objectively and fairly. Please go somewhere else with that mess.
@talmanes4589 People using Hamaguchi's comment as an argument against Clerith is honestly the most hilarious thing to me.
You do realise that, in Japanese culture, people refer to a "certain type" of girl/woman as sister/aunty/granny all the time and it has nothing to do with family relations like in the West?
Cloud's own mother tells Cloud that she thinks a "sort of older sister-type" would be the perfect type for Cloud, one who would lead him around. And that's pretty much how Hamaguchi then described Aerith in the interview.
Or you think Cloud's mom wanted to encourage incest? 🙄
To be honest, the only think you can do is ignore the "hardcore ship fans". You will only waste energy because those shippers are not willing to see the other side, and they love to play the victim, it doesn't matter the ship.
It's so weird how people can reduce such incredible games to optional affinity scenes.
Mmmm… personal xperience was that it wasn’t so much of folks playin victims. Felt mor frequent & mor problematic that many mean folks out there actually victimise people of differing views.
I wouldn’t dwell too much on the optional scenes & romance picks, either. BUT there is a non-ambiguous storyline for the actual factual couple & it’s all fully fleshed out in Advent Children, for those in denial & jus can’t see things as they are.
very level headed takes here. also, id really like to see a video about barrett and his character (:
@@snowsnowsnowcherry 😉
It’s funny that you were a Clerith and then became a CloTi, because in my case, I’m a CloTi, and as I’ve gotten older have softened up to Clerith. Didn’t change ships though. The remake trilogy has only solidified my ship for me, but I can say I get Clerith. They are very cute together. And I think Cloud definitely is at the very least interested in Aerith. I hope they clear up everyone’s feelings in pt 3 only because the fandom is so toxic when it comes to this, that it might benefit from just some blatant truths. Even if it’s in an ultimania I’ll take it.
*Pats AO3* This baby can fit so much [your dream narrative]. Who needs their ship to be canon when you can literally have any version of the story you want?
@@Apotoxin4869 😂😂😂
Final Fantasy IV’s main character Cecil would make a great character study for a future video 🥳
@@gafferman3256 Oooooohhhh! I grew up watching my brothers play IV!!! I love this idea! Once I get around to playing it, I’ll definitely make videos about that game. Cecil’s story is great and I also always loved Kain’s story. Thanks for the recommendation! ☺️
I think the problem isn't that people can't look at the "bigger picture" because of their preferred ships, but that this bigger picture somehow ends up looking way differently depending on who you ship. The love story in FF7 is also imo way too central to the plot to look at FF7 without it, like so many people who are tired of the LTD say people should do.
I've certainly done my best to look at the "bigger picture" and I went into Remake well aware that the Retrilogy with its improved graphics and actual voice acting which would be able to depict emotions much better than OG could potentially "destroy" my ship and tell me I've been wrong for 20 years.
... in the end, to me Remake and Rebirth only confirmed that is has always been Aerith. I love theocrafting, I've tried understanding the "other side," but it simply makes no sense to me.
In the end, I think what we should all do is simply be respectful to others. I stay away from spaces of the opposite ship, I like having a good, respectful discussion in neutral spaces and most of the time, I'll just hang out with people who see the game like I do and enjoy my discussions with them. Because our own enjoyment of the game shouldn't be tied to random strangers online agreeing with us.
Not looking to open a debate, just leaving my comment. For me it's not just about what trope you're into, it's about what makes sense with how the story is told and how does Cloud react to the following events. It just goes beyond liking or disliking one, both, or none of the girls. The *fact* is that the game itself is designed to favor one of them by default for a reason. It doesn't just start at 50/50 and let you live the dream, there is a winner by default, and by a large margin, unless you specifically want to force and favor the side romance. This is intentional in order to make Cloud's behavior believable throughout the developement of the story, in FF7 itself, Advent Children and any of the rest of the games he ever appears in. And the love triangle only exists if you as the player intentionally choose to go for the _other_ option, it's just a self-insert mechanic. If you play the game straying away from the intended route, you will likely think the _other_ is always trying to stay in the middle and trying to take Cloud away. Whereas if you play how you're supposed to, you never feel the _other_ intervenes in their relationship, and the love triangle just doesn't exist.
For context, the first time I played Remake I didn't really like any of the girls (I preferred Cloud to end up alone), yet I always thought the route they were pushing for was pretty obvious, even if I wasn't a fan of it. Some time later I replayed the game and eventually fell immensely hard for the romance part of the plot, but up until relatively recently I played Rebirth and finished it without a sense of conflict surrounding the romance. Opening the internet later to discover there was even a debate about this totally caught me off guard. Funny enough, I've also later came across playthroughs of favorers of the _other_ ship ending up seriously questioning themselves if they were getting things wrong and misunderstanding the story.
I really don't care what people prefers, I let everyone enjoy their ships in peace. But hearing people pull out the stupidest and most ridiculous arguments and straight up spread lies and compulsively manipulate stuff to try to justify their headcanon as canon... no. That's where I trace the line.
I think which ship you're on says much more about yourself than about the characters and to me that's the really interesting part of the love triangle.
Tifa and Aerith are both designed to be valid love interests for Cloud: they're both warm, loving, fun and gorgeous and they both have a positive influence onto and chemistry with Cloud.
But at the same time people percept the same scenes differently and come to completely different interpretations at times. (For example, I heard someone saying Tifa was gaslighting Cloud in Rebirth when she tells him during the night in Kalm that she had hoped they could just pick up where they left but she now sees that that won't work. I view that scene very differently.)
And that's because our own experiences and personalities shape how we see the world.
Therefore, I find it more interesting to ask myself why certain scenes resonate with me the way they do, why I feel a strong(er) connection to certain characters (together), etc..
By asking myself these questions I can learn more about myself and the relationships in my life and I think that's the most wonderful gift a piece of media can give anybody.
I generally don't have a problem with shipping; however, I do have a problem when shipping disrespects the plot and characters, and I don't hesitate to call out such behavior. That being said I don't believe fans pay enough attention to how Cloud responds to Tifa and Aerith because I think that is key to this whole debate. Especially in rebirth he activity tries to dissuade Aerith from acting like they are a couple including on the GS date where the last thing he says is “But I didn't do anything “ he makes a real effort to make sure that Tifa does not get the wrong impression of his relationship with Aerith while actively taking every chance he can to look at check on and show Tifa that he is interested in her romantically and this is hardwired into the story.
I've only been interacting with the fandom for about a year and the willful ignoring of the obvious mutual romantic intention between Cloud and Tifa is so tiring. The truth about the ltd is that two girls have romantic interest in the same guy but that guy is head over heels for his childhood friend but doesn't think she feels the same way until he find out that she does. This is the plot and any notion otherwise is to disrespect Cloud because he is many things but he is not a dirtbag that would try to have his cake and eat it too.
Shipping is fine great even but interpretation is not plot and opinion is not facts presented by the game and dialogue. Shipping should not make it difficult for people to understand that Cloud loves tifa so much that the second he knows that he does not have to be anything more for Tifa than who he is he can accept the truth and himself.
28 years fighting over something that Cloud was obvious about even in the original is more than long enough and I would be saying that if the girls roles were swapped too.
Anyway Great video!
@@joshz2491 I totally agree with everything you said!
@@SNWSTORMaw thanks I'm surprised that you don't have more subs your content is great
@ Thank you ☺️
I'm basically in the same boat you are I came into the fandom the beginning of 2024 and thought it was immediately obvious. Although being a longtime Bleach fan I've seen all of this before very vividly
My Favorite Love Story From A Square Game Is Fei & Elly From Xenogears. That One Makes Sense.
Great video - and it echoes my own experience. In my case, i went from being Cloti to Clerith, after realising that the history Cloud and Tifa had wasn't actually what it seemed. Over time and especially after Remake, i really fell for the natural chemistry of Clerith and the fact that it signals something new, over something based on an unhappy past.
Great to see someone else willing to reassess their opinions based on continued exposure to the brand.
I fully agree with you. There is no canon and tbh, I don't think there ever will be! I think people lash out when they are defensive, an unfortunate byproduct of feeding both ships!
Totally agree with you. I loved this story for a long time and always was into Cloud and Tifa. It wasn't until I played the games more not just in FF7 but the compilation that I started to accept Cloud and Aerith and it made my young mind upset. But after getting older and getting into my own relationships having had a lot of Tifa traits, I came to feel that it was a very unhealthy portrayal of a relationship that I saw myself trying to force even in my own life. I'm now married and about to have a child and my husband and I resonate so much more with Cloud and Aerith in this stage in our lives. He doesn't play games but agrees theirs is the healthiest and most potential for success.
Regardless of what anyone thinks, a lot of this has to do with personal preference of tropes, life experiences, wants and ideas of successful relationships. Anyone who says something is and is not, is false. There's a reason the devs did this. Both women are equally capable of being in a relationship with Cloud. We just all have different experiences and interpretations and that's ok.
@@OGBabygurl Yea. I learned to love the star-crossed lovers trope. Not to mention the fact that in the Remakes, Aerith is now a full-on goddess (or at least Omni-Aerith is). I love the mystery she symbolises.
Just starting the vid, you brave soul
@@sisyphus4889 I know I might be kicking a hornet’s nest with this one, but I felt like this needed to be said.
@@SNWSTORM It was a great video! "Don't get too close to the painting"
O, @@SNWSTORM U were being pretty respectful & balanced in your attempt to “kick that hornet’s nest”. If any1, any side, still needs to make a fuss of this, it’s totally on them
What I understood was both were completely valid (diehard Cloud/Tifa myself) even with the mental shifts that Cloud had.
What we now dealing with is just the massive toxicity of Shipping Fandoms that are everywhere these daysl
Hi again, SN*W! I already shared my opinion on the LTD last time, so I feel like it’s redundant. But for argument’s sake, I’m exactly there with you on all accounts, only I went the inverse route (started CloTi, ended up… well, not Clerith, but something in between, kinda like: Aerith for the game itself, Tifa for endgame, including AC and etc) I absolutely love both girls, with Tifa being my favorite character in FF7 original and Aerith being my favorite character in Remake Trilogy (so far).
I agree with you that there is no canon and Square will never commit to a side, and that they are hyper aware of the LTD and how much it stirs the fanbase (positively and negatively). People should just accept that their canon is probably canon… to them. And even a fellow CloTi/Clerith/Neutral fan will have a different take than yours regarding the relationships of the characters. And that is OK.
Now, for some suggestions regarding new themes that you requested! I don’t know how much this resonates with you, however I feel like the entire speech from Aerith in Cosmo Canyon is very close to the “queer experience”. That entire speech says a lot about marginalized groups and I feel it describes Aerith and people who experience this almost perfectly. Maybe in conjunction with the Water Tower conversation with her, you could draw some deep motifs.
I have some other scene suggestions for Cloud, Tifa and Yuffie as well. But I don’t want to overwhelm you with a long post, so I’ll leave at this one for now!
Cheers!
@@MrCironn I love Aerith’s speech at Cosmo Canyon. I felt like it was probably one of her best moments and really showed how she has come to grips with her role as the last Cetra! I’ll definitely cover that eventually as there’s some other things I want to talk about regarding Cosmo Canyon. I love how it spoke to you about the “queer experience.” I’m queer myself, but didn’t look at it like that. Now I definitely will! I don’t mind hearing more suggestions if you don’t mind sharing them.
@@MrCironn This makes me excited btw. There’s so much I want to talk about this game that doesn’t have anything to do with the LTD because there is so much more to the game than that.
@@SNWSTORM Absolutely! For Aerith's scene/mental breakdown, if you exchange a few things (like, maybe, cursed blood for sexual orientation/skin color, you'll have a better understanding of where I'm coming from with this angle). As for the others... Sure! I will try to summarize:
For Cloud, I feel like there isn't a particular scene, but his overall persona (you could breakdown several scenes with this perspective, specially the flashbacks) is that of a "pariah" kid, that just doesn't fit in and resents failure. Shy, quiet, kind of a loner, maybe even pampered (judging from Claudia's interactions with Cloud). He eventually gets the urge to fit in, to be better, to make friends with the popular kids and impress them, particularly Tifa. After that doesn't really work, most people assume Cloud "mimics" Zack's persona, but... what he actually does is mimic a succesful SOLDIER, not exactly Zack (Zack is never cold, distant or cynical, something Cloud *is* when he is in his SOLDIER persona). He is, essentially an amalgamation of every SOLDIER he worked with, including Sephiroth. In Remake, even if *subtly* (sometimes not subtly at all), he is always trying to impress Barret, Jessie and Tifa. Tifa even finds this a bit weird, as this doesn't ring with kid Cloud, but she is kind of entertained by it (this relates to her own mental state, which I'll discuss later). I see Cloud as a boy who was devastated to be considered a failure, hence why he hid from Tifa and most people in town when he came back as a lowly grunt, that's why he is down when he is talking to Claudia in his own home... he feels that he failed. Then comes in Hojo and he literally says: "You are a failure. Interesting how a failure managed to get here.", which makes Cloud crave for recognition: "Please, give me a number, please!". I feel like this fear of failing is so deep rooted in Cloud (going over solely impressing Tifa), that he SNAPS, he wants to be proven to not be a failure even if it means being recognized by Hojo. I feel like this resonates a lot with people that crave for perfection and success and break down at the first sign of failure. Maybe this was caused from others expectations of him (Claudia? It is implied she expects quite a bit from Cloud, even if unintentionally, maybe he internalized this a bit. I don't feel like Tifa had a big expectation on Cloud, she would be fine with him being just a grunt); maybe from his own expectations or from what he perceived others expected of him (which can be worse, actually). It's only when Cloud accepts himself and all his insecurities and his past that he is ready to move on and heal from this.
I'll get to Tifa and Yuffie later on. It's a bit late over here! (:
IMHO, I Don't Consider The Books & Ultimania Books To Be Canon. I Consider That Media To Be Developer Fan Fiction To Make Money, & Nothing More.
I Do Not Believe That Cloud Ships With Anyone In The Game, & That He Has A Platonic Relationship With Everyone In The Party.
The Affinity System In The OG FFVII Is A Minigame, & Nothing More.
What Is Canon To Me Is OG FFVII & FFVII Advent Children.
The End Of The Movie Advent Children Is What Sums It Up For Me.
During The Song "Calling" When Cloud Is Riding His Motorbike, A Perfect Way They Could Have Showed Shipping Would Have Been To Put Tifa On The Back Of The Bike With Him, & Wrapping Her Arms Around Him Lovingly.
Let's Also Look At The Photos, The First Photo Is A Picture Of Tifa With Her Arms Around Marlene & Denzel With Cloud Off To The Side, & His Posture Is Angling Away From Them To Signify That He Doesn't Want To Be A Part Of That Family.
The Other Photo Is A Group Picture With The Whole Party In It As Platonic Friends. To Further Show Shipping Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, & Denzel Could Have Taken Another Photo, This Time Cloud Being A Part Of The "Family", & Had It Beside The New Group Photo. They Didn't, They Still Used The Old Photo To Signify That Cloud Is Still A Lone Wolf, But Knows That He's Not Alone & Can Rely On His Friends.
Aerith Belongs To Zack, That Ship Doesn't Work, & Never Will. Aerith Is A Guide To Cloud. Someone To Get Cloud To Come Out Of His Turtle Shell. Sure Cloud Was Catching Feeling For Her, But That's Not In Her Destiny. She Is The Planetary Sacrifice To Save The World.
All The Signs Are There That Cloud Has A Platonic Relationship With Everyone. I Don't Understand How People Miss It.
Ultimately, I Don't Care, It's A Video Game. The FFVII Affinity System Is A Minigame, & Have Fun With It.
I'd say that's a pretty close minded way to look at expanded media. Not everything a creator wants to put in their story will fit or make sense during the story itself. That's the whole purpose of novels and books that give you all the extra information you couldn't or wouldn't find in the story itself.
@Step43099 That's The Whole Problem With Final Fantasy VII Though. They Are Still Milking It Dry. They Are Still Trying To Capitalize On That IP. ALL The Mystique Is Gone From That World. Do You Know Why The Movie Jaws Instilled So Much Fear? Because It Played On Your Fears By Not Really Showing You The Shark. & You Always Fear What You Don't Understand. FFVII Remake Destroyed The Mystique Of Sephiroth By Showing Him At The Beginning Of The Game. Now They Made A Game Showing Him In His Youth Too? LOL. The Expanded Universe Has Done Nothing But Severely Damage The Final Fantasy VII World, IMHO.
Aerith Ships With Zack In The Lifestream, As Shown In Advent Children.
Cloud Still Goes His Own Way, As Shown In Advent Children. Even In OG FFVII When Cloud's Mother Thinks He Should Have An Older Girlfriend Cloud Responds With "Not Interested", Which Means He's Fine With Being Single, As An Introvert Often Is.
Tifa & Cloud Did Not "Hook Up" Under The Highwind, That Would Have Been Sleazy, Not Desperate Passion.
Cloud Does Not Ship, Because He Is An Introverted Sigma Male.
Tifa Would Languish All By Herself With No Man, So Daatz Omega To The Rescue!
Close Minded You Say, Nope, I See Clearly. Hironobu Sakaguchi San Had It Right, One & Done, No Sequels, Move On To The Next, Or What'cha Get Is A Diluted Slop Mess Expanded Universe With A Multiverse Hellhole Dowsed In Ship Pandering Fan Fiction, & Done In The Name Of Money. & Final Fantasy VII Does Make Money.
I'm Not Trying To Be Negative, But Please Don't Tell Me I Don't Know What I'm Talking About. OG FFVII Was First Final Fantasy Game I Ever Played, & I See The Writing On The Wall.
I hate that so many sides of this fandom stop looking at the characters as they are and rather as tools to aid them in their shipping wars. They constantly disrespect every character involved and don't let them have any agency. If you like Cloud and Tifa and someone doesn't agree, who cares? And the same goes vice versa. I just want everyone to look at these characters on their own as well as their relationships with the rest of the cast genuinely and in good faith. This whole LTD has made me pull away from Twitter so many times because I always get called such horrible names because I like Cloud and Aerith (Don't put words in my mouth, I'm NOT saying it doesn't happen the other way around, too)
Point being, I wanna talk about everything about these games. The characters, the plot points, the gameplay, everything. I don't want to get sucked into the LTD BS, but it almost feels impossible when you go on places like Twitter to talk about the game
@@flarigrar7114 Absolutely. It’s absolutely not ok to treat people like shit for having different opinions. It happens on all sides. I’m sorry that happened to you.
I ship Cloti, but I think it’s totally fine if people like Cloud and Aerith. I think they’re great as friends and I understand why some people get romantic vibes from them. I don’t think it’s ok if people twist the story to make them work, that’s all. Or put down any character. The LTD is just nasty and everyone needs to calm down.
I agree with you tho. There’s so much I want to talk about with this game that has nothing to do with that. I can’t wait to make videos on the other stuff cause there’s so much to talk about that really makes the whole compilation so rich. There’s so much more to it than the LTD. And people watering it down to the LTD really makes things way more shallow than they need to be.
@@flarigrar7114 and you make a good point. The whole cast has amazing chemistry. I made two videos about Tifa and Aerith’s friendship, but I could easily make videos about any combos of the cast cause they all work so well together. That’s one of the reasons why so many love this game.
@@SNWSTORM I saw those videos, and they're outstanding. I can't wait to see more from you
@@flarigrar7114 Awe thank you ☺️
I can understand where u are coming form. I was part of ff7 group on fb it start fans talk about game story but others toxic shipper on both sides look down on one others so I left group. But my mental health was getting bad seeing both side being hatful
@@StevenWilliams-i1v I’m glad that you left the group to take care of your mental health. Mental health is way more important.
@SNWSTORM thank u I hope u do the same
The problem, as I see it, is that the love triangle story falls apart once the compilation was created. I'm a cloti, but I can understand why you would ship Cloud and Aerith together as another comment already said if you're into the trope of the silent introvert getting with the extrovert who shows them the a new side of the world then that is a great ship.
As more and more of the compilation happened, it had Cloud and Tifa living together and creating a makeshift family where, according to the ultimania, they are still together at the end of the furthest point of the story.
If the story was complete after the game and nothing else was added, you could have debates on who you think he loved and all that. Both sides have extremes that tend to take it too far and try to make a case for why the other female protagonist is actually a horrible person when both are great characters which the new trilogy does a good job of showing.
At the end of the day, it is just a game, so it's best not to take it so seriously over which fictional character is into the other fictional character. Have your favorite ship and find the fanart and fanfictions that make you happy or create them yourselves and just enjoy the game for what it is.
I feel the same way. I don't care who people ship personally but I don't see how you can have these insane rage debates online when it's pretty clear since Crisis Core, Advent Children and now Rebirth it's been TifaxCloud and ZackxAerith getting pushed more so than aerith and cloud.
I can kinda see the Aerith side though she is a great character...but she's pretty much out of the picture now for part 3 of remakes so I'm curious if they will continue to keep the triangle or mostly end it since it's suppose to be the finality of ff7 and compilation. With how they have dealt with the other Tifa Cloud scenes in the remakes, I cannot picture the devs not making the lifestream sequence and highwind insanely romantic.
As well as no doubt in my mind, there will be a zack and aerith reunion in part 3 within the new story beat additions.
1:48 “…& it’s not jus 1 ship that is guilty of this”
Thing is, anecdotally for me, it’s mostly CloTis presenting factual cases + being even-toned, neutral at worst while it’s mostly Cleriths contriving their own flavors/versions of the tale (e.g. Tifa has 0 character development & (in Advent Child,) Cloud-Tifa aren’t really a couple, that Cloud is unhappy with the relationship & really misses Aer, so he wished to die to join Aer, etc etc) + at their worst, being outright nasty calling differing views as simps, stupid, etc.
Can’t claim to have a statistically sound sample size but TH-cam naturally feeds me CloTi content (as it should) & I’ve seen plenty of the above case for the CloTis in “our own playground”. When I do inadvertently wander into “neutral” or Clerith grounds, the Cleriths mostly don’t return that same basic level of decorum as the other side of aisle, very much the opposite, as abovementioned. Very disappointing to say the least.
By the way, @SN*WSTORM, it is non-trivial interesting that you were Clerith -> CloTi. Very interesting indeed.
I guess my case is much more straightforward - hot-blooded guy, so came for Tifa’s hot looks but found that she’s jus the kindest, most considerate, loyal friend, unshakably devoted in her love. If she’s “not perfect”, her flaws would b the occasional lack of confidence with herself & in dealing with others, & basically her same maxed-out virtues above that we could sort of consider a fault. Even those r very relatable & lovable too. I can never contort my mind & heart enough to understand folks who fault & speak ill of Tifa, based on these traits. I mean, does that say that they dislike/hate kind persons? -> themselves r not kind folks either? I dunno… my simple mind -> simple conclusions.
On the side, I bear no hate to Aerith. She’s a great heroine to the Planet’s struggle, great friend to entire team & great sister-from-another-mother to my favorite Tifa. Her own tragic end & Aerith’s Theme (check out orchestral & “Home Again” version) which strongly reminds of her tragedy, often brings the tingles to my nose. Haven’t heard from the other side any1 who even had minimally kind words for Tifa… disappointing
@@simoncss1 When I said that it’s not just one ship that’s guilty of this, I wasn’t saying that they are evenly guilty. I am a Cloti myself and I know that Cloud and Tifa’s relationship is central to the plot. His feelings for her is a catalyst for the game to happen in the first place. There’s therefore more evidence here and I have seen Clotis use this evidence more, while Cleriths are more likely to use personal feelings and preferences, a distaste for the whole traumatized past bond (even though I think that’s an unfair judgement), throw out quotes from Ultimanias and the fanon, Maiden, and yeah, attacking Tifa’s character and those who like her as “simps.”
BUT I have also seen toxic Clotis who have used arguments with logical fallacies and personal attacks and even slurs. I’ve had to remove toxic Cleriths, Clotis, and even neutral people who don’t have a ship out of my comment sections because they’ve resorted to personal attacks and name calling. That’s what I was talking about here and why I said not one ship is guilty of this. I hope that made more sense.
@@simoncss1 Also, so far on my channel I have seen that most of the Cleriths that are commenting have been pretty civil and respectful. I don’t agree with most of what they say though.
And I’m glad that so far on my channel I haven’t seen the absolutely insane take that Cloud wants to be “unalived” in order to be with Aerith again. Out of all the delulu takes I see, that one is the worst to me. That one gives me the most icky feeling and I wish that those toxic Cleriths would stop it with that take. It’s not even remotely true and completely assassinates his character. Anyway, mini rant over 😅 but I will eventually make a video on AC because I have seen that so many people completely misunderstand the story of that one.
@SNWSTORM Some of the takes I've seen have made me wonder if those people are doing the equivalent of hate watching with comments like Cloud wanting to die to she her again or the sequels like AC and DC being apart of the bad ending time-line. If these are the sort of ideas you get from watching how this franchise tells the story it wants, I think it may not be for you.
Now I'm interested in your take on AC cause I thought the story was fairly straightforward.
@@codynorman7809 Oh my god! It’s baffling how much both ships misunderstand AC. The notion that those Cleriths have is straight up delulu and demented. And the Clotis saying that it messes up Cloud and Tifa’s relationship and that Cloud retrogresses, don’t get it either. I’ve seen a lot of people downright disregard it and not accept it. I got curious and watched it. I thought that the biggest negative about the movie was the dialog and that makes sense to me because it was made by Square in 2005. The “dilly dally shilly shally” made me cringe 😂
I actually thought that Cloud’s arc in the movie was very good, realistic, and even moving. I’ve had mental health relapses and have retrograded my progress before. Therapy helped me through it. AC shows how Cloud struggles with his PTSD and how Tifa, Aerith, and Zack help him through it. After he learns to forgive himself for not being able to save people, he’s able to move on with his family. I wish people would see that. Progress isn’t linear especially when you have the all the mental shit that Cloud has to deal with. So yeah, I have a lot of thoughts about it and can’t wait to make a video. I want to read OTWTAS first, though, to get the full context.
Yeah the ship warriors from this fan base can be worse than the Harry Potter ship warriors.
My personal position is that it does seem Tifa is the Canon love interest, but that the direction they took them an advent children make the whole thing kind of pointless, and that continuing to build them up in the remake trilogy will be completely pointless itself unless they fix Advent Children (what's the point of making them a couple if they're going to be a celibate couple that sleeps in separate beds into adopts kids instead of conceiving them?)
As you can imagine, I've made enemies of the likes of mlwjrpg and StygianSis
this will be the most out there take probably but i kinda think cloud is aroace, he told his mom he isn’t interested in getting a gf and especially in the remakes you can point at many points where he clearly is uncomfortable with how jessie/aerith/tifa are into him, but he just kinda takes it, he is never rly into it himself, even during the dates it feels like most of them he kinda got thrust into a situation he isn’t comfortable in. i know it’s mostly me projecting my aroaceness onto him, so i know it’s not what the developers intended, but yeah that take also exists for anyone wondering. ig it’s more of a wish for me, i relate a lot to cloud and kinda want this to also be part of it xddd
@@tugaygunes4816 Lol 😂 you’re not the only one. I’ve talked to people about this irl and have seen people online have this impression. I’m Demi sexual and might be projecting that onto him because I see it. I see that he’s only into it with Tifa. He’s loved her since childhood and the devs even said that when they hugged in Remake it was sexual for him. Then of course he almost kisses her in Gongaga and during the date in the HA version he initiates the kiss with her. He’s definitely not interested when Jessie or Aerith tries anything and pulls away.
Also, I really don’t like physical touch unless I’m interested in someone romantically. I actually really hate hugs, but I’ll let people hug me because I know they want hugs or they want to comfort me or want comfort themselves. So, my interpretation of the Aerith handhold during the date and the hug in the church is Cloud only really lets her in order to comfort her or humor her. He even says “I didn’t do anything” after the date with her.
Anyway, I might be projecting too and seeing things through a shipper lens at the same time. I think it would be cool if he is on the ace spectrum and can easily see it. There’s not enough representation in media for us, so that would be really cool.
But yeah, you’re not the only one.
tysm it always feels like i have to justify my interpretation of him, so someone also seeing it from my pov feels very good, big hugs to u >:3
@@tugaygunes4816 Of course! Big hugs to you too! I like virtual hugs 😅
Stop engaging with people who deny the basic elements of the story, but never stop stating the cold facts of the story. I've seen far to many back down and delve into "art is subjective" when the fact of the matter is If it was supposed to be both girls, both girls would have gotten a kiss on the GS date in Rebirth and both would have had a "near" kiss that is interupted in the non-optional scenes. If it was supposed to be Aerith, then she would have been the one to get a kiss on the GS date, then a near kiss sometime during the game.
But that only happens with Tifa. And it is riddiculous to even entertain that the notion developers made any of that after nearly 30 years without it being intentional to showcase were Clouds feelings actually lie as the story nears it's conclusion.
Now that being said: Shipping for subjective prefference is an entirely different thing. If you personally just enjoy Cloud and Aerith interacting and finding it cute etc then that's what you preffer and that is more than ok and should absolutly not be discourgaged. Cloud and Aerith have great chemistry when just engaging in banter while on their own.
The problem lies with the portion of the fandom who tries to gaslight the rest of the fandom that the canon story presented, with the canon source material like the Ultimanias are in fact not at all the truth, but that the truth lies within some head canon 5D chess twisted version of "FF7" that needs them to bend over backwards, look over your shoulders and squint in order to make any sense.