So glad fellow folk who have lived in manchester before or currently do, are calling out this guys BS. He is a core reason why Manchester venues habe suffered not thrived. I lived in Manchester from 2004 to 2011 and there were so many more thriving independent venues of various sizes.
I love the way Joe can ask hard questions. Why does Sacha Lord get a free ride? He’s at best controversial, and many would say he’s damaged Manchester nightlife massively. If you listen to this though, you’d think he was the next messiah. There are loads of places I can go to listen to someone flogging a book unchallenged for an hour - Joe shouldn’t be one of them.
As a former WHP regular then barman I'd disagree, people now go for the spectacle rather than the music. Was inevitable with the size of the brand. Last two visits I heard loads of people complaining about garage/techno at a night they bought tickets for! Glad Manchester still has The White Hotel as an alternative.
I love the podcast and political coverage of Joe but you guys really missed with this one. getting the promoter of 10k+ capacity venue and a 50k+ cap festival on to talk about the state of grassroots music reveals that you have little understanding of the dynamics which are causing the decline. this is a bit like getting the largest shareholder of tesco on to talk about the decline of the local greengrocer. and there was little attempt to push back on him during the interview on his work and role in the current decline. supervenues like WHP and commercial festivals like Parklife are big factors in why things are so fucked up at the moment in grassroots music and why independent spaces are dropping like flies. when a venue closes, that space is gone and we are not getting it back. it will be snapped up by a developer for commercial/residential purposes which will always be seen more favourably by council and local authorities. the UK is well on its way to becoming a very boring, shitty place to live if you enjoy music and culture and this was a big missed oppurtunity to platform some helpful discourse around an issue that does not get talked about. big up everyone else in the comments also pointing this out
Why are WHP and Parklife bad for the nighttime economy? WHP has been going on for years when town was thriving, Parklife is once a year and used to have lots of afterparties in independent venues across town. Nightlife across the whole the UK is going to shit, just like the UK as a whole is going to shit. Buses that were full with students on a Tuesday night 10 years ago are quiet on a Friday night today. Is it any wonder when their loans and bursaries now don't even cover their rent? Couple that with health anxiety and stupid social media campaigns telling you to drink herbal tea for a good time in your 20's and you've got a pretty bleak picture. I went to a Ghent 2 weeks ago and saw their many pubs absolutely heaving every night and open til 2 at the earliest, one was open til 6AM on a Thursday and rammed. Ghent BTW is only the size of Trafford. It makes so much sense when you realise they're paying about 30% less in rent per month.
@@ragpud just wanna caviat that I'm only speaking about the music sector here, not qualified to comment on pubs or the broader night time economy. you're 100% right to point out that the increased cost of living is the main issue. especially inflation of staple foods and energy costs. wages have been stagnant for years. just like the price of a house is now exponentially more expensive proportional to peoples earnings, so is the cost of leisure and "going out". squeezed disposable income is definitely the biggest force at work creating the issues in UK night life at the moment. sacha lord rightly points out that this has made people pickier than ever, they feel less confident spending money on leisure/cultural experiences regularly. the super venues and massive commercial festivals are able to bully the market and corner whats left of the limited demand. they have investment from the financial sector, huge corporate sponsorships etc. they can pay oversized fees to a small cohort of headline artists and lock them into long exclusivities in the region. the knock on effect of this is an inflation of artist fees and at times artists being contractually unable to play at any other venue in the region. this makes it increasingly impossible for smaller venues and independent promoters to put together events that are financially viable. the costs are handed down to the promoters and then ultimately the consumer. higher artist fees - higher ticket prices. higher venue running costs, higher hire fees and higher drink prices. people paying more and often aren't able to see their favourite artists in these spaces. this is a death spiral for small and medium sized venues. as a DJ & an independent club promoter of 7 years I can only speak to my experience of working in the industry in venues of 100-500 capacity. it is now considered a massive win to be able to cover costs on event of these sizes in London. most of us who are promoting events independently are doing it for the love of music, underground spaces and creating experiences for people. We usually lose money. Venues are at best making much less (often losing money) and questioning whether its worth the ag of staying open. we can't compete with the likes of Drumsheds, WHP and other huge capacity events and festivals in reaching a wider mainstream ticket buyer, they have a ridiculous advantage in terms of resources and we are heading in the direction fo a monopoly. it is a classic end result of capitalism and the forces of oversized players in the market place being able to bully out smaller operators. i would also argue that this is creating a mono culture, the same select cohort of headliners making silly money, showcasing a narrow musical offering, whilst the rest go hungry. the creation of art and music will suffer massively if grassroots artists can't get paid even small amounts and have no spaces to build themselves up from. as i said in original comment, my fear is that we are currently in a highly unsustainable market condition which is a ticking clock for many if not all smaller independent spaces in London and the rest of UK. once these locations are gone, we wont get them back. developers are hovering over every venue location waiting for them to be forced out. eventually, I hope (lol) the economy in this country will be in a better place, I fear we will have basically no interesting independent spaces for people to come back to going out to by the time that happens. only a bunch a faceless, corporate giants which make a tiny cohort extremely rich.
This guy's punitive exclusivity contracts for artists/DJs playing at The Warehouse Project have made a big contribution to killing off Manchester's nightlife.
I'm one of the kids in the Hacienda photos you see bobbing up everywhere, many of my peers were part of the music scene at the time. It was a very organic grass roots thing originally. To me things went very elitest. Small venues desperately needed support in or around the city, for raw young talent to have somewhere to play. Night & Day cafe for e.g, had to fight to stay. Because of noise abatement orders from people owning expensive apartments nearby that most people I know could never afford.
Pre Lockdown, I was HD in Soho. Everything closed bang on Midnight. There was Clubs that if you knew, you knew. But just grabbing a beer post midnight in London isnt easy.
Lmao, He has not saved a thing. Not to mention the plentiful rumors about the guy and his friends that everyone who's ever pulled a pint in manchester has heard.
He got spiked in his own club - all you need to know about this self-publicising architect of gentrification - he references Madchester alongside Ed Sheeran and the 1975 - Clueless as to how great Manchester was and to what it has become under Cool Daddy Burnham and this line vacuum, those who know, know all about this prat - and his crap taste.
London, like most UK cities is grim, very grim. There isn’t much that can be done about that. It’s cramped, uncomfortable and expensive. Always has been. I suggest a flight over to a European city if you want a nice weekend. Barcelona or Bucharest are my favourites.
Visiting a city for a weekend gives you a superficial view of a city at best. I lived in Barcelona, it’s not the utopia it’s made out to be. Ask a local what they think about tourism. The cost of living. Or the rise in crime. Take a walk down Las Ramblas at night or through Raval. As for the nightlife: it’s fun but lacking when it comes to the amount of venues. It’s certainly a pretty city though if dirty when you look a bit closer. Bucharest I can’t speak for but my boyfriend is half Romanian and he says the divide there between rich and poor is ridiculous and it’s grim outside of those affluent areas. Just like London. There’s a tendency sometimes to look abroad but not actually look closer when making comparisons. A lot of Europeans rave about London too when they visit for a few days!
@@infinitedaryl2267 I live in Madrid and I can’t stand how uncomfortable London is. It also has this exclusionary feel to it, like isn’t a place for everyone. London is dangerous in the centre and in outer hellscapes like Croydon and Eltham. Sorry, but I felt much safer in Saint Petersburg than I did in London with all those tracksuited roadmen shuffling about. I’ve never heard anyone rave about London, unless they’re from the UK.
@@unusedsub3003 O don’t get me wrong, I’m certainly not recommending London. I’m just pointing out that other big European cities have their problems too and lots of Europeans love London. There are other concerns too that are overlooked. LGBTQ+ rights for example. I would most definitely not feel safer in Saint Petersburg or Bucharest. My point is it’s all about perspective. Side note: hey, I live in Madrid too! Better than London for sure but it has a few problems of its own. Such as low wages, a flat crisis and horrendous police.
Thank you for this was fascinating and something that's definitely not talked about enough, as someone who works in this economy much much more needs to be done in London to inspire confidence in customers and operators
Never heard of this guy - LOL at the comments though 🤣Shame really, calling him a charlatan is doing a great disservice to one of Manchester's finest bands. I was there in the last few years of the Hacienda - when Manchester was Madchester. I worked in a clothes shop in the early 90's too. As the music got wilder, so did the width of the flares! Never again, please. I still love the music, but Joe Bloggs can get stuffed!
I'm not well versed in the current club scene but human nature hasn't changed since the 1990's...Cream, Gatecrasher etc were all 'big bullies' but still room for burgeoning nights - people who had their finger on the pulse. Kids get on it and start making fun for yourselves!
He is right, Britain is seen as a laughing stock, mixed with pity, I have travelled extensively on the continent and it is clear that is seen as above or deemed irrelevant
A fascinating - and important - discussion here. One of the problems the whole 'night-time economy' sector faces is that consumers always remember their last great or awful night out. They measure their experience of the sector by their - frequently inaccurate - memories. You only ever *remember* when you had an absolutely fantastic night out when everything went right - you very rarely appreciate it when it's happening. Sacha Lord - and other people in his position - are fighting a constant battle to create a situation in which memories can be made. It's a thankless task.
Just to play devils advocate with the whole exclusivity contracts debate - a lot of big promotions and clubs do that in London, Berlin, certainly on Ibiza, it's not unique to Manchester and Warehouse Project. It doesn't make it a good thing to do - but that's just business. Manchester nightlife hasn't faded away because of the WHP, there has been a massive culture change around health & drug use since the Sankeys era, and a massive change in levels of disposable income, in the 90s/00s young folks could go out every weekend - now they can't afford to. There isn't as much choice in nightlife in 2024 as there was 20 years ago, because there isn't the numbers or the demand for it, big events still do well, but that's it.
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So glad fellow folk who have lived in manchester before or currently do, are calling out this guys BS. He is a core reason why Manchester venues habe suffered not thrived. I lived in Manchester from 2004 to 2011 and there were so many more thriving independent venues of various sizes.
The reason no one goes out anymore is that it requires half a week's salary.
A nightlight for yuppies now, even festivals are tailored for those with a bigger bank balances.
@@frasercook5823been that way for 15 years 😢
This absolute ring piece has done more to destroy independent venues than COVID, trying to monopolise the scene with exclusive contracts
Yup. Best friends with burnham too. He’s from a very rich family as well. What a country b
Sacha Lord is a charlatan, pass it on. Disappointed in Joe for not pressing him about the exclusivity contracts he signs artists to.
Agreed. But hrs labour so they look the other way
I love the way Joe can ask hard questions. Why does Sacha Lord get a free ride?
He’s at best controversial, and many would say he’s damaged Manchester nightlife massively. If you listen to this though, you’d think he was the next messiah.
There are loads of places I can go to listen to someone flogging a book unchallenged for an hour - Joe shouldn’t be one of them.
As a former WHP regular then barman I'd disagree, people now go for the spectacle rather than the music. Was inevitable with the size of the brand. Last two visits I heard loads of people complaining about garage/techno at a night they bought tickets for! Glad Manchester still has The White Hotel as an alternative.
Absolutely dropped the ball on this Joe
I love the podcast and political coverage of Joe but you guys really missed with this one.
getting the promoter of 10k+ capacity venue and a 50k+ cap festival on to talk about the state of grassroots music reveals that you have little understanding of the dynamics which are causing the decline.
this is a bit like getting the largest shareholder of tesco on to talk about the decline of the local greengrocer.
and there was little attempt to push back on him during the interview on his work and role in the current decline.
supervenues like WHP and commercial festivals like Parklife are big factors in why things are so fucked up at the moment in grassroots music and why independent spaces are dropping like flies.
when a venue closes, that space is gone and we are not getting it back. it will be snapped up by a developer for commercial/residential purposes which will always be seen more favourably by council and local authorities. the UK is well on its way to becoming a very boring, shitty place to live if you enjoy music and culture and this was a big missed oppurtunity to platform some helpful discourse around an issue that does not get talked about.
big up everyone else in the comments also pointing this out
Why are WHP and Parklife bad for the nighttime economy? WHP has been going on for years when town was thriving, Parklife is once a year and used to have lots of afterparties in independent venues across town.
Nightlife across the whole the UK is going to shit, just like the UK as a whole is going to shit.
Buses that were full with students on a Tuesday night 10 years ago are quiet on a Friday night today. Is it any wonder when their loans and bursaries now don't even cover their rent? Couple that with health anxiety and stupid social media campaigns telling you to drink herbal tea for a good time in your 20's and you've got a pretty bleak picture.
I went to a Ghent 2 weeks ago and saw their many pubs absolutely heaving every night and open til 2 at the earliest, one was open til 6AM on a Thursday and rammed. Ghent BTW is only the size of Trafford. It makes so much sense when you realise they're paying about 30% less in rent per month.
@@ragpud just wanna caviat that I'm only speaking about the music sector here, not qualified to comment on pubs or the broader night time economy.
you're 100% right to point out that the increased cost of living is the main issue. especially inflation of staple foods and energy costs.
wages have been stagnant for years. just like the price of a house is now exponentially more expensive proportional to peoples earnings, so is the cost of leisure and "going out".
squeezed disposable income is definitely the biggest force at work creating the issues in UK night life at the moment. sacha lord rightly points out that this has made people pickier than ever, they feel less confident spending money on leisure/cultural experiences regularly.
the super venues and massive commercial festivals are able to bully the market and corner whats left of the limited demand. they have investment from the financial sector, huge corporate sponsorships etc. they can pay oversized fees to a small cohort of headline artists and lock them into long exclusivities in the region.
the knock on effect of this is an inflation of artist fees and at times artists being contractually unable to play at any other venue in the region. this makes it increasingly impossible for smaller venues and independent promoters to put together events that are financially viable.
the costs are handed down to the promoters and then ultimately the consumer. higher artist fees - higher ticket prices. higher venue running costs, higher hire fees and higher drink prices. people paying more and often aren't able to see their favourite artists in these spaces. this is a death spiral for small and medium sized venues.
as a DJ & an independent club promoter of 7 years I can only speak to my experience of working in the industry in venues of 100-500 capacity. it is now considered a massive win to be able to cover costs on event of these sizes in London. most of us who are promoting events independently are doing it for the love of music, underground spaces and creating experiences for people. We usually lose money. Venues are at best making much less (often losing money) and questioning whether its worth the ag of staying open. we can't compete with the likes of Drumsheds, WHP and other huge capacity events and festivals in reaching a wider mainstream ticket buyer, they have a ridiculous advantage in terms of resources and we are heading in the direction fo a monopoly.
it is a classic end result of capitalism and the forces of oversized players in the market place being able to bully out smaller operators.
i would also argue that this is creating a mono culture, the same select cohort of headliners making silly money, showcasing a narrow musical offering, whilst the rest go hungry.
the creation of art and music will suffer massively if grassroots artists can't get paid even small amounts and have no spaces to build themselves up from.
as i said in original comment, my fear is that we are currently in a highly unsustainable market condition which is a ticking clock for many if not all smaller independent spaces in London and the rest of UK. once these locations are gone, we wont get them back. developers are hovering over every venue location waiting for them to be forced out.
eventually, I hope (lol) the economy in this country will be in a better place, I fear we will have basically no interesting independent spaces for people to come back to going out to by the time that happens. only a bunch a faceless, corporate giants which make a tiny cohort extremely rich.
He’s a joker
This guy's punitive exclusivity contracts for artists/DJs playing at The Warehouse Project have made a big contribution to killing off Manchester's nightlife.
This guy gave me super villain vibes in the first minute. Then I checked the comments and lmaoooooo
This guy again… being from Manchester, I disagree.
He’s monopolistic and pretty sketchy
I'm one of the kids in the Hacienda photos you see bobbing up everywhere, many of my peers were part of the music scene at the time. It was a very organic grass roots thing originally. To me things went very elitest. Small venues desperately needed support in or around the city, for raw young talent to have somewhere to play. Night & Day cafe for e.g, had to fight to stay. Because of noise abatement orders from people owning expensive apartments nearby that most people I know could never afford.
Typical promoter, always talking out their arse. I absolutely don't recognise the picture of Manchester he's painting.
Pre Lockdown, I was HD in Soho.
Everything closed bang on Midnight.
There was Clubs that if you knew, you knew.
But just grabbing a beer post midnight in London isnt easy.
Lmao, He has not saved a thing. Not to mention the plentiful rumors about the guy and his friends that everyone who's ever pulled a pint in manchester has heard.
Heard them too. He’s one scary character
He got spiked in his own club - all you need to know about this self-publicising architect of gentrification - he references Madchester alongside Ed Sheeran and the 1975 - Clueless as to how great Manchester was and to what it has become under Cool Daddy Burnham and this line vacuum, those who know, know all about this prat - and his crap taste.
London, like most UK cities is grim, very grim. There isn’t much that can be done about that. It’s cramped, uncomfortable and expensive. Always has been. I suggest a flight over to a European city if you want a nice weekend. Barcelona or Bucharest are my favourites.
Visiting a city for a weekend gives you a superficial view of a city at best. I lived in Barcelona, it’s not the utopia it’s made out to be. Ask a local what they think about tourism. The cost of living. Or the rise in crime. Take a walk down Las Ramblas at night or through Raval.
As for the nightlife: it’s fun but lacking when it comes to the amount of venues. It’s certainly a pretty city though if dirty when you look a bit closer.
Bucharest I can’t speak for but my boyfriend is half Romanian and he says the divide there between rich and poor is ridiculous and it’s grim outside of those affluent areas. Just like London.
There’s a tendency sometimes to look abroad but not actually look closer when making comparisons. A lot of Europeans rave about London too when they visit for a few days!
@@infinitedaryl2267 I live in Madrid and I can’t stand how uncomfortable London is. It also has this exclusionary feel to it, like isn’t a place for everyone. London is dangerous in the centre and in outer hellscapes like Croydon and Eltham. Sorry, but I felt much safer in Saint Petersburg than I did in London with all those tracksuited roadmen shuffling about. I’ve never heard anyone rave about London, unless they’re from the UK.
@@unusedsub3003 O don’t get me wrong, I’m certainly not recommending London. I’m just pointing out that other big European cities have their problems too and lots of Europeans love London.
There are other concerns too that are overlooked. LGBTQ+ rights for example. I would most definitely not feel safer in Saint Petersburg or Bucharest. My point is it’s all about perspective.
Side note: hey, I live in Madrid too! Better than London for sure but it has a few problems of its own. Such as low wages, a flat crisis and horrendous police.
Thank you for this was fascinating and something that's definitely not talked about enough, as someone who works in this economy much much more needs to be done in London to inspire confidence in customers and operators
Lol looking at the comments, this dude appears to the most controversial guest to date.
He's talking crap
Let me guess. that's because you fundamentally disagree with every talking point he said even though it''s true.
@alice1374 no, it's because he didn't save Manchesters night life
Never heard of this guy - LOL at the comments though 🤣Shame really, calling him a charlatan is doing a great disservice to one of Manchester's finest bands.
I was there in the last few years of the Hacienda - when Manchester was Madchester. I worked in a clothes shop in the early 90's too. As the music got wilder, so did the width of the flares! Never again, please. I still love the music, but Joe Bloggs can get stuffed!
Doesnt even know the correct date of the arena attack. Says a lot
Absolute charlatan
I'm not well versed in the current club scene but human nature hasn't changed since the 1990's...Cream, Gatecrasher etc were all 'big bullies' but still room for burgeoning nights - people who had their finger on the pulse. Kids get on it and start making fun for yourselves!
He is right, Britain is seen as a laughing stock, mixed with pity, I have travelled extensively on the continent and it is clear that is seen as above or deemed irrelevant
who?
The real tragedy was Hector's House closing and blind tiger taking over. RIP
Soho’s always been the same for years
A lot of modern youtube influencers advocate a alcohol free existence. People just dont drink like they used to.
I thought he was a good chap but hearing he took a Tory to court makes it even better b
A fascinating - and important - discussion here.
One of the problems the whole 'night-time economy' sector faces is that consumers always remember their last great or awful night out. They measure their experience of the sector by their - frequently inaccurate - memories.
You only ever *remember* when you had an absolutely fantastic night out when everything went right - you very rarely appreciate it when it's happening.
Sacha Lord - and other people in his position - are fighting a constant battle to create a situation in which memories can be made. It's a thankless task.
Just to play devils advocate with the whole exclusivity contracts debate - a lot of big promotions and clubs do that in London, Berlin, certainly on Ibiza, it's not unique to Manchester and Warehouse Project. It doesn't make it a good thing to do - but that's just business. Manchester nightlife hasn't faded away because of the WHP, there has been a massive culture change around health & drug use since the Sankeys era, and a massive change in levels of disposable income, in the 90s/00s young folks could go out every weekend - now they can't afford to. There isn't as much choice in nightlife in 2024 as there was 20 years ago, because there isn't the numbers or the demand for it, big events still do well, but that's it.
He’s doing okay out of it. There’s clearly wealth to be spread