Discussing Inspiration and Imitation with Malazan Authors Esslemont and Erikson
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 ม.ค. 2024
- I had a chat with Malazan authors Ian C. Esslemont (Novels of the Malazan Empire and Paths to Ascendancy) and Steven Erikson (Malazan Book of the Fallen, Kharkanas, and Witness) about aspects of inspiration and imitation when it comes to writing and narrative.
We discussed some of their inspirations, but also were the dividing line is when it comes to writing.
Discussion of Zack Snyder's recent film Rebel Moon may have come up... as well as Glen Cook's Black Company, and we might just have referenced the great Malazan Controversy of Elric 😂
If you would like to buy me a coffee or a book, Support me on Ko-Fi: ko-fi.com/criticaldragon
Intro and Music by Professor Trip.
An inspiring, inimitable discussion! My thanks to all three of you!
My grudging thanks to you, Nemesis... oh the indignities that social mores impose upon us that I must recognise your comment with some minor element of grace.
Girrrr.
Soon you will meet your deserved end, fiend.
Just want Mr Erikson to know that I’ve read the draft page he posted of Walk In Shadow too many times to say the number while maintaining my dignity, and that I adore his work on kharkanas. If I ever have the pleasure of meeting him I hope he’s prepared for a discussion about gothos
Always great to have you talk to Erikson and Esslemont! I was wondering about the different conventions of what to credit between literature and film. Could it have to do with film, especially in it's early conception and theories, aligning itself more with theatre than with literature? Because some of the things you were discussing like not giving credit to the setup of a certain scene and how it's shot -- the opening of the boot for example -- could be seen as similar to theatre. Where how a production for example handled lightening, even if it can clearly traced to a director, wouldn't be given credit for. At least not that I know of.
Thanks to everyone!
I think there is an interesting area of potential distinction between technique and the language of storytelling, and (as much as I hate this word) 'content' of narrative. Certainly staging in theatre, cinematography in film, composition of angle, view, and blocking, are all really important elements, but how much of that is about a shared language of communicating in the medium (with the expected evolution and development of any language), and how much is 'owned' by that particular storyteller?
I certainly don't have the answers.
@@ACriticalDragon Technically, a storyteller implies telling a story, and someone has to receive that story, so the shared literacy of those receiving the story wouldn't be separate from the part 'specific to the storyteller's' own telling of it. Like prose + narrative, and much of language with the infinite contexts of daily live, they're not 'really' separate, but they also are, because it's nice to have different words to make the subtlest distinctions.
Also... you're basically 3 musketeers... nice homage happening here.
@lanternvalley interesting point. The director of a film is a storyteller, insomuch as they are the creative person crafting a story, however the language they use is cinematography (and there is frequently a separate person in the cinematographer who controls that aspect) and there is no guarantee that the audience of the film has the same level of shared literacy in film. Especially as film implies a composite storytelling creator in that sound effects, score, sfx, acting, script writing, blocking, costuming, make up etc. may, to a greater or lesser extent be an aspect of the communicated narrative conveying information and meaning, but also separate to directorial communication. So in the instance of a film, the 'storyteller' is a composite and collective entity, which uses multiple communication channels to evoke understanding and comprehension in a potential audience.
We could start referring to 'narrator, narrative, and narratee' but the common understanding of narrator is again usually situated in a singular entity, despite that not being the case. So to be more technically accurate andcspecific we can refer to narrative position, the medium and language of the communicated narrative, and the fluency and literacy of the receiving narratee, but now we are getting into specific terminology that is distinctly removed from that commonly understood by the intended viewership of the channel and language more appropriate for the seminar room.
I never thought I’d ever say I’m excited to stop skiing , but I’m excited to stop skiing so I can listen to this on the way back!!!!!!!! LFG!!!!!
I miss skiing, or maybe I miss the apres-ski... hard to tell. I hope that you are having a great day. Downhill or Nordic?
@@ACriticalDragon Downhill and yes a great day!! I hope yours was pleasant as well, AP.
I still really fondly remember skiing on the main piste after a foot and half of fresh powder falling the night before, and the piste being almost empty. It was glorious.
@@ACriticalDragon Glorious, AP. Glorious. I’m on the east coast of the United States, so I dream of powder 🛌💭
Wonderful discussion I enjoyed every second. Listened with my father who said “These guys must read a lot” haahaha thank you for the video.
I can watch these guys forever! Thank you so much for these conversations, A.P.!
It's funny how A Song of Ice and Fire takes ideas from other places: Memory Sorry and Thorn, the Wars of the Roses, The English Anarchy, Dune in some ways, Lord of The Rings of course, Norse Mythology, Elric, etc. etc. and it works because George really put in the work of constructing a compelling story (or multiple stories rather). He didn't just copy one single story, he took ideas from a lot of places, but ultimately he built his own thing and since he's a terrific writer it works; sometimes subverting those ideas he took from others in his own unique way. I think the difference is that inspiration takes ideas and makes something new and imitation just takes ideas and puts a different mask on them and calls it a day.
Of course it's still not finished so maybe that detracts a little bit from what I said.
Esslemont's collection is impressive!
All the great novels no matter what the setting or genre have in common an introspective honesty of the human point of view. An honesty that all human being can relate to and put themselves in the story. Tolstoy, Chekov, Homer, etc wrote with empathic honesty of the human condition with all its attributes and flaws that we all can relate with.
Every great creator is inspired by those that came before, just refined and hopefully improved. The Seven Samurai is a great example of something that inspired so many, good or bad.
I am not sure we can apply empathic honesty about the human condition to Homer, especially as he (or potentially 'they' given that Homer may have been a composite) was writing in a very different time, millieu, and with a different purpose in mind. It can be very hard to see the 'pangs of Achilles' as a relatable aspect of the human condition.
But I agree with a lot of what you are saying here.
Thought-provoking and fear-inducing as always!
What will I accidentally imitate in a 'Dragnipurian' fashion?
Nice! I know what I'm listening to after lunch ;) Thanks for the (no doubt) excellent conversation!
I hope it ended up being worth it.
Fabulous discussion gents. Thanks. Super interesting distinctions drawn all round. The Tarantino trunk shot is a very interestnng case, since there where multiple uses of that same shot in cinema before him, he just took it a stage further in refiniement and use and became heavily associated with him. When it comes to inspiration, adaptation, expression, learning, transformation , I always come back to my favourite Bruce Lee quote(which can pretty much be applied to anything): "Absorb what is useful; discard what is not ; add what is uniquely yours' . We are all made of our experiences and influences, and then we create new things with that in our dna. Cheers
Yup. great stuff
@@ACriticalDragon
I had the good luck of having good teachers in high school, and so I will quote again my music history teacher. Although I believe she herself quoted some obscure music critic journalist of the 19th century on this one. It had to do with the criticism that Richard Strauss was facing, and the argument was that if you look at it objectively, there is no musical sentence that hasn't been used ad nauseam already. If you want to be savage about it, there is no original music being written anymore, nor will there ever be. However, how you combine those sentences makes a difference. And that relates to what Cam said regarding the six or so stories that have been written and rewritten. I think it's mostly up to the reader (or viewer) to decide if something is straight out imitation or a source of inspiration. Those moving courtains and how they are employed are what makes the difference, I think.
And then there are a few more aspects. First, how obvious can you make these sources of inspiration in order for them not to be considered imitation? Second, how many painfully obvious sources of inspiration can you use before your story loses originality and becomes a pot of stolen goods. And third, how well you mix those elements so your story retains a shred of sense. Like the bar scene in Rebel Moon (not to mention that even the name of the movie is a straight arrow pointing at Star Wars). I guess if I wanted to be generous (which I don't, there are way too many stories that have been ripped off for my generosity to stand), but if I wanted to, I would say that probably she thought that most people hate the empire and they are desperate and pressed by time to recruit volunteers. Sure, empire spies are bound to be in the bar, but the risk is worth it. It's utterly stupid, but it's the only way to make sense of it.
And last but not least, the retelling of old stories for a new generation that refuses to see the old stories beause of the old effects. God knows I have tried for years to get my husband to watch Babylon 5 and he won't because he can't stand the effects. And the music. I can only imagine how resistent the youth would be. But even so, if you don't retell it under the original name, to me, it feels like a ripoff. Be honest about your intentions: we want to remake the original Star Wars for the younger generations, using the movie effects of today. And stick to the story then, keep the character names, effectively retell the same script. This copy pasting of old stories while selling them as new ones is something that doesn't sit well with me. Hell, Avatar isn't so old yet that youg people would complain about bad effects and yet they ripped it off in the scene where the native American Indian slave princeling has to subdue the mean flying bird monster and psychically bond with it, but the bird will only fly with one flier, therefore it was useless to the princeling's master. Even an obvious, blatent, publicly confessed homage can have the aftertaste of imitation.
I guess the key lies in balance: similarities can't be avoided, but how much similarity is too much is what separates inspiration from imitation. Or plagiarism.
While I doubt it was intended, I did burst out laughing reading Blood Meridian when all I could think of was the Gorn Star Trek episode.
But I do remember reading Bakker thinking this seems a lot like Tolkein. It was solidified when he even added the mithril shirt.
I eagerly anticipate the next installment of Insurgency, I mean, Rebel Moon. Not necessarily for watching it but the reaction videos.
I am always inspired to imitate Malazan storylines in my D&D games 😁
Nice to see two fellow Winnipegers doing well.
I really appreciate the secondary world points. It's definitely one of my favourite things about fantasy. I think in some ways that literature as a medium is best positioned for this, because the imagery is created within the reader's mind. Maybe you could argue it's able to be less overt in turn, but looking at the world around us, overt doesn't seem to be that successful in stimulating discussion.
The Sun Eater series is a good example of openly borrowed ideas.
It was said by Karl Jung about how we all deposit inspirations and ideas into the swamp of the subconscious and it takes on it's own organic growth
The growth part is important, as it changes something from imitation to inspiration.
Rand al'thor as Muadib for the Aiel/Fremen... Or like any previous messiah from the desert!
Wonderful chat AP! Thank you, Steve and Ian! What a privilege to be friends with those incredible persons!
I like this'+
heh
The word missing is 'iteration'.
What a treat! I started to read Malazan Book of the Fallen and A Song of Ice and Fire at the same time. Malazan was always my favorite. I just love how complicated it is. All those themes about being a human. And no traditional elves but many much more interesting people or races. My only complaint is that I cannot any more find anything complicated enough to read. Vast world building seems to be always an exaggeration. 😂
Try the second apocalypse by R.Scott Bakker another Canadian author
Steven didn't pay his heating bill
Excellent discussion! This is something I ponder frequently. Where is that line? I really think varies person to person. That said, it wasn't the, er, inspirations that bothered me about Rebel Moon; it was how poorly written it was. Flat characters, terrible dialogue, people standing by while Shit's Going Down for no reason other than letting one of the other heroes shine. Such a disappointment.
Rebel Moon would be a great case study in a film class as I think it highlights a lot of common mistakes and illustrates why certain things work by showing when they don't work.