The Players were on different pages and it felt like they just wanted to skip most of the stuff unless it is talked about. They act like it is a video game that put their whole party and such in danger and just kinda sunk the whole game. Kinda sad.
What I would do is make the DM watch your video about the DM who put his party in a dungeon that could only be solved by individual skills. Make them think for themselves to work their way out.
Have them look over there items and spells more and give them less dire situations, like have the dwarf ask if any of them have a fire spell to light his torch or prestidigitation to make his burnt dinner taste better. Let him explain how spells work and how they can be used (practically outside of combat.)
Once one of my players said that. He’s usually so creative. “ are you sure” “ yeah, I just wave my hands around and wait for the Minotaur to maul me to death “ “ ok, he charges towards you and ---FRICKIN DIES!!! When I was waving my hands I was actually casting invisibility on the spear on the ground and using mage hand to lift it up! Suck my arcane a$$ cow head looking @$$ twerp! BOOYAH!
@@demogorghon to be fair, I came up with the idea first, but that was more then a year and a different in between when I had a npc use the invisible spear and when he did but “ suck my arcane a$$ “ was a original saying
Players: "Alright DM, when does the train leave?" DM: "What train?" Players: "You know.... aren't you going to railroad us? The internet told me that's how this game works." DM: "Ummm.. railroading is usually a... bad thing" This is the first time I've heard a story of a reverse railroad
Honestly, if a group of players acted like this in my campaign, my first thought would be that they're trying to passive-aggressively tell me they aren't having fun and don't want to keep playing.
Sounds like a "talk to your players"-situation. They are expecting "fight the enemies, go where told" from the sound of it, but the DM is asking for creative problem solving outside of "kill the enemies". Might want to have a chat with them about that. Otherwise they'll keep going on autopilot and just sit to die in the next boat, unless someone tells them otherwise.
Agreed, they might be expecting a different kind of campaign to what the DM wanted. To me it sounds like they are expecting more of a war gaming, video game like campaign rather than RP and Exploration, they also might be new and are still used to the limitations that video games have. My first group was like this and I was frustrated about it, but I have come to peace with it by letting them now and then once I got their answer, I just made it a hack and slash adventure.
agreed. Point out to them that the campaign is written to encourage creativity from the players to work around the situations. If they just want a railroad parade of fights it would be best to shelve this campaign and toss them an old fashion dungeon crawl with lots of monsters to smack around but few puzzles.
I've had similar issues before with my players even after a session 0 where we went over expectations. Talking with players will make things go by much more smoothly once everyone is on the same page.
To me it sounds like the players aren't actually interested in playing. Or they are so new, they have absolutely no idea what TTRPG is. So the solution is either "talk" or "find new people".
RPGs nowadays hold your hand so much you don't need to think, my first thought was: They are young and only ever played video games, unless the possible solutions are glowing in their face, they won't know
@@lextrux Emergence has always been a challenge for video game developers, because player creativity is really hard to program for. Emergence is almost impossible without pitting players against each other.
@@kp6378 true, however, back in 'ye olden days' you at least had to figure out clues and figure out relatively difficult puzzles (or at the least they made you think)... Nowadays it's just 'follow the marker and turn the statue to meet the respective stones'
@@lextrux reminds of core pokemon games and its railroaded plot. Holding ya hand from the beginning to post. Then we got mystery dungeon. Once you get to do jobs you're mostly on your own and no rush to complete the story.
It is painful how uninspired these players sound. This campaign sounds like the sort of thing That I’d have a blast with because of how much thee DM encourages atypical problem solving. Heck, the moment I saw a pirate ship full of Orcs approaching I’d be rigging together a plan to turn the merchant’s ship into a powder keg, evacuate with as much of the crew as possible and then trigger an explosion with a fire spell to take out the Orcs and their ship while they’re busy boarding. Might not have worked out perfectly, but I’d at least have been planning something to save the client, the crew and leave one less pirate ship afloat.
Why would you wait until they're boarding? Most ships carry at least one or two ballistae for defence.... aim them at where the mast meets the sail. Just before firing, coat the arrowhead with oil, set it on fire, then launch. I don't care if the enemy ship is fully crewed with minotuars.... their ship is made of wood, and fire is the last thing that anyone wants on a sailing ship. Even if the ballastae miss the masts, they're going to punch flaming holes into the sails.... and now you've given the enemy crew a whole problem to worry about.
Never mind not being on the same page, this DM and players are in completely separate books at opposite ends of the library. Sounds to me like the players thought they would be playing Skyrim. This is the kind of situation that can easily be resolved by just talking to the players. More specifically, ask them what they expect from D&D, then give them more of that. It might be boring for the DM to run, but if they can get the players invested, then they can start introducing some more interesting things.
Not even Skyrim holds the players hand that much. Talking with the players is definitely the way to go; there's a big disconnect between player and DM expectations.
@@kp6378 I don't see talking actually helping here. The DM seemed to be giving hints quite a bit, but none of the players even tried short of the barbarian sort of. Talking and sessions 0's can only do so much. Plus plenty of these stories probably do have sessions 0's, so that ends up making the players look worse because they know what the DM is wanting to do and they still don't try. By that point you can't do anything but drop the group and look for a new one.
There's probably a more tactful way to put this: ask the players why they're there, what they're hoping to get out of the game. It sounds to me like they aren't even playing, like they don't seem to understand player agency as a concept.
Better idea.... each player has to write two paragraphs about their character. History, beliefs/mindset, religion (if applicable), and ... why are they here? Out of all of the reasons to explore this world, what made you come here, as opposed to some other region? I mean, money can be made anywhere, what made you choose this place?
That's not even not thinking outside the box, they don't even think XD. They are pointed at with a cannon, and have a full repertoire of spells, abilities, and weapons they could use. And they simply go "I guess I'm dead".
One of the best moments from the wizard in the party Me ( dm) : your blocked off from the rest of your party, backed into a dead end hallway, and the Minotaur is rearing up to charge what do you do?” Wizard: “ wave my hands and die i guess, I’m at low health and don’t stand a chance” Me: “ you sure, your usually smarter then this” Wizard yeah Me: “ the Minotaur rears up and charges imp-- him: AND FRICKIN IMPALES HIMSELF! I wasn’t actually doing nothing, when I waved my hands around, I was actually casting invisibility on the spear on the ground, and using mage hand to hold it up! SUCK MY ARCANE @$$ COW HEADED LOOKING A$$ LACTOSE LOSER!!! FRICKEN IMPALE YOURSELF IN THE HEAD LIKE THE BOVINE BUFFOON YOU ARE! SUCK AN UDDDDER!!!!!!!!
To me it sounds like these players are new to rpgs. I would probably act in a similar way, since tabletop rpgs give so many options on how to tackle issues that it becomes hard for new players to understand how creative they can actually be. I played a tabletop rpg once with my friends and I was completely lost, I had no idea what I was capable of. Even playing BG3, which is digital and has more restrictions, the game had me baffled for 20 hours with all the things I could do and had no idea about. I guess one way for the players to catch that they should be more creative is by having a more experienced player acting as an example.
Recommend a sesson where they arrive to a town that looks normal except there no villigers. Leave it at that and let them decide the their action and don't get angry if they sit for awhile doing nothing. If they investigate, roll a dice behind the a screen without telling them the results so they hear the sound. Don't give then any hints or clues what going on unless they role high. Let them explore and describe that the house were breaking down and filled with supplies such as gunpowder, weapon and loot. Reality, this town is belongs to the pirates and no one there because they were on the boat that attack them. After a bit, describe that they are coming home and giving the players 2 choices: run or fight.
This might not work if the players are just looking for a hack 'n slash game. I'd be a little worried about the campaign ending in tragedy as the party just sits down and waits for death.
This reminds me of two players who I used to play a lot with. The first player always wanted to win and the second player never wanted to lose. When things did not turn out the way they wanted, they used to give up, do nothing and wait for the game to hand them victory on a silver plattern.
Note I'm only 4 minutes into the video but 2 suggestions and a piece of advice. 1. Give them a puzzle that they can't stab there way out of 2. Give them in world consequences to things, like if they forget the map they don't get to have it. But most importantly stopping holding there hands, I teach my players early on that for everything you do and don't do there will be consequences later on, and if they belive me or not is up to them.
I should mention, keep it fairly easy and light right away. Like the locked door thats not locked, when they go to turn the handle it appears locked, they try to pull or shove it up it doesn't move. The reason is because you have to slide it open.
Yeah the moment someone says oh ok let me go back into the place we snuck into, you will be caught you will face consequences you will suffer something
@@soul1d By god no, bad advice. If one of these players actively says "Wait I go back into the place we just robbed, to see if I can get even more", the DM has already encouraged the player to think for himself. Do not, I repeat, do not punish him then with making his character suffer. That is great for parties who already think crazy, but not for this one.
@@_Woody_ then make them have an interaction, a moment of almost getting caught. A hey who are you from a maid or a guard etc, not just they went back got it and came back
I can say I've faced this problem SO many times I'm glad *finally* someone is talking about it. So many games were ended before they could begin because of this attitude, it's like finding the holy grail to me any time I do a roleplay that actually engages me and makes me think creatively. I get it some people can't do 'outside the box' thinking or roleplay well but it seriously gets old after the tenth time and takes the fun away.
With traveling I roll a 1d20 that gives different effects depending on how it lands, for every day of travel for ship travel: 1. Forgot random item in the port usually nothing too bad, but make a player part with something 2. Rain /storm, can't stab the weather. 3. Someone found over board, could be a new adventurer! 4. rotten ration , see if they'll con save threw eating it. 5. thief on board, now we're playing among us! 6. Going the wrong way +1 day travel , anyone have cartography? 7. smooth sailing -1 day travel 8. A child is found/hiding on the ship 9. Iceburg ahead, see if the players want to play in the snow, or search it for some enemy? 10. Merchant ship shopping time? 11. torn clothing, sleeping bag etc. minor repairs. 12. Another ship shows up, could have plague or need help. 13. Party searches the ship and finds something like a good luck charm, or the captains ... drugs. 14. Pirates, or mutiny 15. Booze offered to the party , tavern brawl always fun! 16. Random loot box (d4 1. mimic 2. clothes/minor loot 3.nothing 4.potions) 17. Find a ghost ship that gives an item/advice (stat up) 18. Slave trader heading somewhere, international waters, ethics meet morals~ 19. sail breaks/something breaks and anyone got wood working skill? 20. Nothing happens
And this is exactly why you need a session zero and some time with each player before you run stuff. Sometimes it just doesn't work. Good luck finding people who will appreciate the work you put in, it sounds really fun.
I'd recommend the DM to simply talk to their players. This can be easily solved by them asking their players to think a bit more outside the box, or, if that's really to no interest for the players, for the DM to concentrate on good battle encounters so everyone can enjoy themselves. They could also lure them easily in some twist-traps, like letting them battle people they shouldn't and realize what they did wrong later :)
You could talk to them but if they just can not think of anything because they are uncreative you could throw puzzles at them(can not be solved with fighting) that are not that hard and slowly make them harder. You could also reward your players when they do something creative or really cool with inspiration or advantage or anything else really.
@@Margolias In that case, session zero's importance isn't the problem, I think it's just a lack of initiative on the party's part. They need to understand that they are playing as a team and have to come up with their own plans, very few DMs would be willing to spoon-feed them their options. because if they can't be creative, then their fun in ttrpgs is limited.
First DM mistake was suggesting any actions. Let the players do things, or not. Let the captain get shot? Hope someone can keep the crew from piracy now. Dont get a vital item? Now they are prepared for you. Dont warn people in time? Others have combat advantage. Make them think now, or think about it later.
Wow, I wasn't expecting to be early, lol. D&D is a game where the DM and the players get together and all tell a story. I guess some people would rather sit there and pretend they're the characters in a story someone else is telling, rather than tell their own.
Some people don't think that way. Like I roleplay but I'm better with diplomacy, figuring out heists and strategy but without a goal, I find I'm less interested.
I'm pretty new at DnD and can be this type of player sometimes. Me: I'll use the help action. DM: ok, how do you help? Me: uh, I have no idea. My suggestion for people struggling with this is to watch other players who play well, on youtube or podcasts etc. This gives me ideas of things to copy and add on to. A DM could have the players watch a particular campaign as homework, and then encourage the players to try things they saw in that.
Alena, i'm going to have to disagree with you on that. more often than not, that's how the Matt Mercer effect happens. when new players get to look at something like Critical Role, Adventure Zone, etc. they often expect that they HAVE to play like those people, because that's how D&D is "meant to be played". not to mention it leads to a lot of disappointment when the game isn't like what they saw. Note, that not being able to do crazy out of the box stuff is fine, especially if you are new. as a DM, i'd rather people learn how the game works before trying to go crazy with it. i'm DMing some new players right now who are like that, and it fine for they are still learning.
Along with some of the good suggestions in this post, I’d include the possibility of adding a fourth player. Someone who with experience who can think and act creatively, and who may offer suggestions to his party in these situations.
I honestly fear though, that if the DM can't bring them to roleplay and think creative, the best thing would be to call the group quits. I have seen time and time again, that people can't get into roleplay and unorthodox problem solving if not everybody on the table already does it. So it could be best for the players to split into groups which roleplay alot already. It's easier to break the ice if you are not the first one "making a fool out of yourself". If that is not possible, I have also seen groups learning to roleplay and be more open about ideas. But depending on the group it takes alot of time and this group is leaning very extremely in the opposite direction. I could understand it if the DM would be too frustrated at one point. Best thing is to talk about it, if they say they would like to try it with RP and an open playstyle then great build on that abd take it slow, if they tell you they are not there for RP, then the DM should give up on subtle tricks to make them do it. It is possible to "train" them without them knowing but it's alot of work and beeing a DM can honestly be enough work already. It is not only the DM's responsibility to make it a fun game, the players are responsible just as much. But if it is the sole wish for this DM to turn it into an epic RP Saga he will need determination and be ready to put in more hours. Get them into social adventures with lots of talking. Everytime they try to answer NPCs out of character, do not answer them, instead remind them to talk in character. This will maybe be annoying at first, but should help them to get into the character at later stages. Write a detective mistery and be open about it. They can't just stand around in this one. Do the extra work and make it hard and conflicted, with time tables, false leads, gathering evidence etc. If they feel lost, only give them minor hints. Never enough to fill the next hour. If they have backgrounds, sit down and talk them out in one on one meetings. Then build them into your campaign. Give them problems with obvious choices. Like in a videogame, describe how they could be doing A, or B or try out C. They will have limited options and won't think entirely outside the box, but they get comfortable with free choices without actually having free choices. Always tell them what they have missed. I know this can be a bummer. I never advocate to play with open cards as a DM. Honestly one could write himself in a corner that way, happens to the best. But in this case it will help. They will be pissed about that 10k gold stash they missed in the strange looking room, if they just had checked the walls. They will be furious if they get to know which NPC has betrayed them a couple of sessions ago, if only they had killed him right then and there. Push them into sessions where logic alone leads them to seeing that doing nothing will result in death. Use whatever, the ship was already a good example so go more extreme. Crushing buildings, raging fires or my favourite but not DnD friendly plane crash with one parachute fewer than there are characters. But seeing the ship failed, just let them die. Again I never advocate for this kind of DM bs, to just kill the party. But it is necessary. Either they learn and you will have a *good* campaign or they break after the sixth TPK and *end a bad* campaign. Win win
I had this same issue with my D&D group and here is what I did...1) have a quick chat with them before the session and provide examples 2) I started incorporating their backstories into things they may/may not notice without rolls. For example, one character was a mercenary so he would have more of an eye for tactical/military situations. This lets me “prime the pump” of their imagination so to speak and 3) realize that players are dumb. I say that last point with the utmost love as I have been a player myself, but sometimes it’s hard to remember that they don’t know what the DM knows. What is obvious to us, because we built the world, scenario, etc probably isn’t noticeable to them. It took over a year of “behavioral training” but now they are starting to really make me think on my feet. I hope this helps.
Without telling the group what you're wanting exactly. I'd watch a fun TH-cam vid. That shows good rp, like Man Shorts or something fun like that. Then casually guide a conversation after vid. Saying things like "holly cow, I really liked how they xyz." Then it's just a fun pre-season activity. 10-20min tops. Maybe bring a pizza for a chill environment. A really cool DM I had did that once. I was knew to DND, and game rp became fun and more intuitive for me after that. Sounds like they just need there horizons broaden. What a fun sounding campaign you've provided them.
They are on massively different pages, but I might have a trick to help. Have them need to infiltrate an enemy camp, but it is heavily guarded, to the point of being suicidal if they charge in head on. If they pass a basic 10 Perception, have them notice a specific wagon but entering and exiting... A Traveling Performers Caravan. Once they're in, have them perform to gain access to the enemy leader, but they actually roleplay what they do in the performance IRL. Here's the kicker... If it turns out disastrous, they are dragged to him as punishment. If it turns out great, describe the encore performance (unless they want to follow it up IRL) and are treated to a private meal with the enemy. Either way, they find their way in, but they have to wait for it. If this fails, you and your group need to have a chat
Same as a few other commenters recommend: set up a session with a plot hook where nothing will happen until the players decide to look into it. Have them accustom themselves to make their own decisions.
it sounds a lot like they just have no real attachment to their characters. that's a big problem so you may want to find a way to make them see their characters a little more important to them. perhaps during these campaign moments add small hints of personal touch for each of the characters. During player birthdays in my game. Our dm has given special gifts to each of the players in a form of a raggedy child from their race that just acts as a mysterious Delivery boy or girl, and then just responds with it's from the big guy and points upward then scampers off, usually gone by the time they chase after them. each item having a more personal bonus to it. that works with their characters and playstyle. it helps people want to stick around Also he sneaks different Loot into the looting and other hidden areas of the world to give us a reason to search areas and sparks interest with dialogue as well. all of these are good ways of adding some more personal investment touches to the world they are playing in. I recently had to stop playing with them over some player drama, BUT aside from that I always looked forward to hearing more of the story because I felt like my character had a point for being there. whether it was my role, My backstory involvement, or even the many achievements my character ended up making along the way. I mean we even ended up side stepping the whole end of the world campaign until recently when a Goddess herself reminded us of it lol
Ok so I've had this problem a few times and generally my players are really good about being creative but sometimes they're running on low power mode it seems. What I'll do is just play my NPC's/monsters do what they do, or if they are intelligent entities have them show more tactics or throw a few spells that the party might have forgotten about, if you can trigger them to suddenly be like "oh hey yeah!". Also I think when OP said the Barbarian had a spear, narrate that a little if they are hitting a mental road block, like "there's a cannon being pointed at you and you're briefly stricken with dread, but a voice in the back of your head reminds you that spear might buy you some time" Be creative, yes that puts a little more on the spot pressure on the DM but sometimes it does help. I'll give an example from my game: I had the party come across a small Orc raiding party at a huge bonfire. Players were like level 5-6 so I gave these Orcs a couple extra hit die each to beef up the encounter a little and they had a Hobgoblin with them giving a morale boosting speech and riling them up. The party gets scouted and the Orcs come in hot, several front line shield/spear/axe and 4 archers in back with the Hob directing them. Party isn't making a whole lot of headway as they only have 2 front line holding back 6. Rogue asks me what she can see as they are all kinda stumped since these beefcake Orcs are actually winning. I tell her she sees the Hob in back directing them and they're following his direction, she finally asks if he's near them or in back and anyone around him, no one is around him, so she takes off to go flank and get her sneak attack bonus on. She gets there and distracts him, the Orcs slow down and seem to go into Orcish autopilot, the other Rogue and Ranger are like "hey we're surrounded by trees" and both climb up for vantage point and open up on the archers, Mage sees a break in the front line and casts at the archers as well then raises the few dead ones giving the party a few extra hands in the fight, turning the tables a bit. They win the fight finally but they had to earn it since they were losing ground early on. Sometimes spoon feeding an opening or subtly giving the idea might trigger lightbulbs and you get a really cool encounter.
Maybe try a one-shot with a series of "dummy" bosses with varying environments, and provide small hints and nudges to encourage them to think of alternative methods of dispatching them, or even options to evade encounters entirely using the landscape and defined boss properties to steadily encourage them to think critically about what and where they are fighting, and what that can do for them. Maybe also include some story elements, as this can play into what may and may not be possible in addition to the abilities of the characters. Like collapsing a ruin, which looked ready to go any day, on something's head, or luring them onto a marsh/ice which did not seem solid enough to hold a pc, never mind a large hefty boss, thus immobilising them, and leaving them open, or employing a natural weakness, such as using tight spaces to deny larger foes the option to turn to face them, provided they can find a way behind them. Something of the kind.
As the DM, I would create a scenario where the party wakes up one day, gets an escort mission from an npc and they come to a cross roads where they could fight (and will die) or find a creative way around the situation and survive. If they choose to fight and end up dying, I'd talk to the party about alternative solutions they could've taken. Then rerun that day from when they wake up and see what they do. Hopefully they'll learn to think of solutions besides hacking and slashing through the obstacle.
With my group I used to put them in extremely dangerous situations when they would just go head down without investigating. After the sessions we would talk about the game and told them stuff "you could have actually done that to avoid that". Now they learned and they ask 1000 questions to every NPC and study their surroundings even inside a tavern
Do what another DM on here did and create a "Tutorial mission" one that's not "figure it out or for" but encourages them to think creatively and use their abilities. Like one of the puzzles was doora based on each of their classes. Ajd as they fight skeletons when they use their class abilities a door unlocks. Maybe you can modify that to unlock when using something creatively and then toss them in before taking the training wheels off. Let them sink or swim and hopefully learn that creative thinking pushes them forward
If they aren't familiar with the the concept of "you choose what you want to do", the DM could really reward any creative thinking, e.g. do they like loot? XP? Pets? Give them stuff they like as creative rewards. And even say before a session, "I'm going to really reward creativity". Maybe start by providing several options to let them choose their own adventure? E.g. handed a map from a guide, they can either hit up place A B or C. Get them to ask the guide questions about each place so they can gauge each option and pick the one they want. That'll start them asking questions on what to do, and over time phase out constantly providing options so they suggest them.
Just a thought, perhaps find out what draws the players attention. What do they like and what makes them want to get things done. Then find a puzzle or mechanic that compliments this that is starts out simple at first (say a locked chest and a key, or a flimsy door that is locked. Make sure these details are the first thing the party knows about for them to get an easy solution to with a bit of room for improv). These puzzles would get trickier and complex over time and hopefully work with the party to the point, they can become aware of the things they can try in the game, no matter how silly it would seem. Another idea is to talk to the players. You ought to do this first off to assure them they can be creative in the game, though you can also directly ask them what do they want to do in the game and find out what each of your and their expectations is. This way, they know what the DM has in mind, and the players get to tell the DM what they are willing to try in the game. Thirdly is REWARD them whenever they do something you like. Whether it is in character, a cool moment, a funny thing or, in this case, done something to solve a puzzle or tried to do so creatively, you give them inspiration. Inspiration can go a long way, despite the bardic inspirations. A player getting loot for rewards is great in its own league though not as immediate as a god's sent from out of nowhere the players gets to use or give to other players when needed. TLDR: See the Inspiration mechanic for DM's to players.
I have two possible solutions. 1) Get a player who knows how to think outside of the box and pray to Nuffle that these dimwits pick up what he's laying down. 2) Re:Zero these suckers! Make them repeat the campaign beat for beat until they figure something out, and then introduce new complications to keep them on their toes.
As a DM, I would make sure to populate the area, and manipulate time. Meaning, you see ropes on the side of the boat, a couple of orcs are distracted by something on the other side of the ship(possibly meaning a fight happening). As far as manipulating time. Cannons wouldn’t take one round to prep and fire. I would tell them they have 3 rounds to act to figure out how to not get blown to the depths of the sea. I think part of the reason the players won’t think outside the box is because they’ve already figured out that if they act improperly or choose to not act the DM will give them an option to act that will move the game forward and they can just rely on that. Rather than being creative themselves. I could be quite wrong with this thinking, but I think giving them options without telling them the options is the best way to go about getting them to think of solutions to the problems. On top of that, if I were this DM, I’d remove the dwarf NPC. He’s thinking too much for the party. Matt Colville describes his NPCs as helpful but does not give good ideas. “Let us meet them in battle!” “Is that a good idea? Can we win?” Who said anything about winning? What a more glorious way to die?”
I. . . wow. I mean, I guess the only thing I could think to do is over-tutorialize everything. Like create unskippable puzzles and encounters that are entirely designed around ONE mechanic, ONE spell or combat technique or roleplaying method or whatever, and they need to figure out what that option is or the can't clear it. Give them some time and then nudge them toward the correct solution. It's a bit railroady for a normal campaign, but hopefully once they have used their moves more often they will get more comfortable with using them on their own. Maybe even design encounters with two solutions, one the "obvious" test, and one a bit more clever, just in case one of them figures that one out.
a lot of people here are saying that it's "sad that they couldn't think of anything." i would just like to remind everyone that people play games for different reasons. on top of that, some people are just not very out of the box thinkers. hell, one of my best friends is a good computer coder, but sucks when it comes to imagination. everyone has different skill sets, and if a player is new, they might just need time to figure everything out. as a DM, I'd rather have my new players learn how to play the game and their character sheet rather than try and me a mastermind of plans. that comes with time. Also, about my coder friend, when he plays D&D, he pretty much always plays the quiet strongman and likes to simply go along with whatever wacky thing the party does. he's not a leader and he's fine with that.
Me and my group are all new to D&D. They definitely started out more like this, so I just let things happen. Of course I'd give them ideas like would you want to jump out of the boat, but after awhile the kid gloves have to come off. If they die it will be okay, it's just a game. I would say it worked for my group, but we also had other issues like drinking to much during the game.
I didnt know someone could be worse than me at coming up with ideas But even I would have done something when I saw someone lurking in the shadows or aiming a crossbow at the dwarf
in like 2nd edition we had a new player(so its excusable) who we had put on watch while we slept. They heard some noises and went to investigate. without waking any of us. We all sat there wide eyed staring at them hoping they'd take the hint but they didn't and since we were IC sleeping we couldn't say anything. Somehow it did work out due to a nice DM understanding the situation, but we were all silently panicking. The look on there face while se stared was priceless though.
I would say the answer is escalating consequences. Scrutiny after the event that makes the party think "why didn't I worry about X", things like a town guard investigation, their hiring merchant's incident report, the consequences of X being dead upon the town. Then filter them towards puzzles that ask for lateral thinking and finally put them against a puzzle boss. Slowly use the challenges as a teaching tool.
Ok, this is a really weird situation. My DM has trouble keeping up with the players, and often gets a lot of “the players did WHAT?!” moments. One of the weirder moments where we’re we’re supposed to clear a ranch of a bunch of orcs, and ended up challenging the leader to a one on one duel while we befriended them and then some players seduced some. The DM then Brough the orcs back later for some really good RP. Suffice to say this isn’t a problem in our group. Anyway, Sounds like the best way would be to talk to them, and use session zeros to set expectations.
Not even 3 minutes in and i already could tell that the players are just not interested or anything for that matter. If they have played before, then the dm did basically everything for them or discouraged thinking in game entirely. As a player any and all information in game can be crucial. As a dm i encourage my players to take notes to keep up with information. Either short hand or ask me to repeat it slowly to get all information. I award this behavior with either exp, or dm inspiration if they remembered something without writing it down, the next day before session.
I would make a few encounters that are puzzle based and can't be solved by fighting. like having them go into a room that has a lock machanism with a cleaver way to open and a magical enchantment on the door to prevent them chopping it down.
Sad part this happened to me in a dungeon the dragoning game. My previous character was captured and gone for a session or two. A time skip happens and they were meant to come back in a what appeared to be a defunct ship. The party wanted to just blast the ship and move on but the dm kept dropping hints that maybe there was something more to do there. All they had to do was hail the spaceship comms but instead we spent an hour with the group just wanting to destroy it since it was rapidly approaching them. Eventually they just buckled their seatbelts and waited not wanting to do anything else shortly after.
It's an easy solution: be blunt and tell your players to use their heads. In the example of the cannon about to fire at them, just pause the game and say: "take a few minutes to go over your character sheets and see if there's anything useful you can do, and feel free to bounce ideas off one another". Yes this is meta gaming, but in this case it's a learning experience for your group.
Maybe you should tell the DM to look up the story with the goblin that has the letter to do whatever he wants. The one from the governor, so that he can share it with them and they can have an idea of the fun shenanigans they can get into.
My first/current DM asked us after first session what ratio of rp, combat , exploration we are interested in. Also, as a player, sometimes I am just tired or confused and can't see obvious solutions. Maybe when situation like this rises DM could ask players to roll intelligence and give them solution based on that roll.
Oooh do I know this struggle.... I have a few stories from my party. The best one was probably the time they spent half an hour trying to open a door disguised as a wall..... they tore all the books off the shelves.... pulled all the torches off the walls... one of them tried bashing the door with his mace... They kept trying to push the door when opened by pulling on the handle and pressing the button hidden in it.... none of them thought to investigate the door........ This is a party of 7 people..... They essentially kept trying to push a sliding door
I can't remember exactly what, but I know a while ago a story was featured on here where the dm taught their players to use class skills more by defeating enemies with them to open marked doors. I think something similar to that would help, an endless gauntlet of enemies that can only be stopped by solving a puzzle. Hopefully that'll inspire them to try something new and just not accept a deadly fate.
3:02 These players are clearly capable of planning and strategy, I think there is more that the DM isn't telling us. Maybe he throws an absurd amount of red herrings out? Maybe many hints aren't as obvious as he makes them out to be?
The dm should start encouraging every instance of creativity with loot. Maybe as the barbarian cuts a rope, it whiplashes around an orc's neck, dragging him up to the boat while cutting off the rest of his friends- and he has a nice belt
I think you're right the DM and players are on different pages. The easiest solution is to sit down and talk to the players about what it is that everyone wants out of the campaign. There's nothing wrong with a simple hack and slash if that's really what the players want. Also, like you said, maybe the players aren't experienced enough to know how to use their skills and abilities effectively. If the DM takes the time to explain everything to them, maybe they will start playing the way he wants them too.
Personally I’d ask for more feedback in game and make sure they know what type of campaign their in for. Cause if it their still new then you’ll know to go for more hack and slash route. Hopefully it’s only a communication issue.
If you are a player. Make sure you have an imagination and the ability to act on it. If you need inspiration to get the creative mind juices going, watch high fantasy movies old and new. You can use games but don't expect that kind of mechanics in DnD sessions. Just use these to get the look and feel to what it is like in DnD. It's up to the DM to set the tone and mood of the world that your characters live in. Then try to immerse your state of mind with it. If the DM Failed to tell you first what the tone and setting is before hand. That's not your fault but make sure to ask him right away. When making your character add a little more flare to your character, by putting a little of your self into the character so you can feel comfortable. You don't have to act out being someone you're not at least not totally. Once you get settled in after a few session or games with your character and when you feel confident that's when you can try acting different character persona for a new character. As for the DM make sure you describe the environment that the players find them selves in thoroughly. I usually start with the weather; hot, cold, warm, moist, wet, humid, etc etc. as the party transition from outside to inside wither it be into cave, city, sewer, or building. Play to the players 5 senses first before venturing describing more base on passive perceptions. For god sake make sure your players are paying attention. I had my fare share of space cases for players. I usually take them to the side and have 1 to 1 talk with them and ask them to just sit out and watch just maybe long enough that it would bring them down to earth and get them excited to finally to play or get them to leave the game entirely. During session zero run simulation encounters with players that play to your players character abilities. Show them how a cool Fire bolt an other cantrips works. How the Fighter Action Surge works, a rouges stealth mechanics work with sneak attack damage. So by level 5 everyone should know how to play there class and when you feel that the players are ready to advance more take them on the rest of the journey. But don't stagnate them for too long you don't want the hype to drain away. If you have bunch of new players have all of them be marshal classes with no spell casting if possible what so ever. Get them rely on potion shops, for survival and have them plentiful around to help get them to work together as a team first before throwing the indept story hooks that they come across. You want to beat the shit out of them not kill them out right. To make the players learn humility and desire revengance. Once the players have a common goal. That's when the game gets more fun and the players are engaged to go at the game. lol
It feels like there are two types of d&d groups. The ones who want to spend 30 minutes checking every nook and cranny of an empty room. And ones like these. Who are just oblivious to the world around them.
Yeah, it's pretty clear nobody's sharing a page here... It's a pretty standard "talk it out" scenario. The GM needs to figure out what the Players actually want out of the Game, and the Players NEED to know that they can always ask about doing stuff. "You can ask about doing whatever you can think of." Is a line I've often repeated, especially with noob's... They often just don't understand that I haven't designed the Game with a specific list of what's allowed or not. SO I have to let them know and sometimes (some groups) need the reminder more than once. Then of course, I have the responsibility of REWARDING the Players (and PC's) for thinking of stuff to do. Yeah, some of it's just boring when I have to back up and rebuild the Campaign to fit the Players and get kinda "railroady"... so they have something to do... a short list of the obvious (if nothing else)... BUT in time as they think of things to ask about or ask for, I reward it... the whole "yes-but" or "not exactly-but" etc... thing comes into full effect. I might not always just blithely give it away, but if someone finally asks to do something independent, don't think for a minute that I'm about to pass it up as an opportunity. The main point is that everyone has a great time playing. That at least needs to be part and parcel with a TTRPG... SO as they grow, so will the Game. I can be patient... and sometimes it's difficult, but it's worth the investment. You have Players that are willing to get pre-programmed into your style of gaming, rather than being the blanket assholes most of us have to deal with, wrecking the World-setting with every possible breath... You should be tickled to death to have such maleable Players and be ready to input the softwares for them to work on. ;o)
Give them actual puzzles. Something they can't brute force. Like a series of riddles, with each solution being something only each character would have. One of the monsters I had to face once was a Perfect Mirror beast or something. It would naturally Copy your rolls and everything you did. So if you tried to swing a sword, it would magically brandish a sword and swing back at you. And since it was an exact copy, neither of you would take any damage. The same for magic spells. -The way to beat this monster was to hurt yourself, which would cause the monster to hurt itself. Or, what I did... I pointed an Unloaded crossbow at myself and fired, tricking the beast into shooting itself with its own crossbow
Yep, this is the group I'm trying to DM. It is physically painful to watch 5 people try to get through a session with the collective creativity of a snail.
Ok so the DM should be looking at the points they *begun* to think creatively but fell short. Breaking into the mansion to question a prisoner and starting a generic brawl AS A DISTRACTION, but they forgot one task they had to do (get the map). You have two ways of addressing it, either (a) encourage them to make a sort of 'objectives' shopping list (a bit like quests in Skyrim have for instance), I would perhaps note this has the risk of encouraging them to only go for objectives written down and not adapt, but it's a possibility. (b) Adapt the mission. I mean they have quite possibly just had the map slip their mind then, but maybe there is a way for them to get the necessary intel without the written map, or maybe there is a more incomplete scrawled one at the house of one of the missing people, or maybe it pops up on their way to escape the mansion (y'know obviously pointed out fancy treasure chests are irresistible)! And the second point, the Barbarian cutting the ropes, the DM kinda failed in that they didn't reward the Barbarian's quick thinking it sounds. A better way then "are you going to help them" might have been to have the barbarian start, and note that it is slowing down the boarding of the vessel and being partially successful, then see how the rest of the party responds - they may have joined in with the barbarian, or prepared to fight the orcs which do make it on board buying the barbarian more time to cut the ropes, or something else unexpected. The key thing is not to expect the players to magically change overnight and be the most creative thinkers, but the points they do begin to think creatively, reward that in some way either in the short term, long term, or ideally both. They should hopefully start to see over time "oh, clever solutions win clever prizes" and begin to think of newer solutions.
it's hard to change the mindset of people that are not wanting to. Unless they actively want to change then it's not going to get better, you could try inviting someone you know that can think for themselves and teach them that way. Not in the main campaign but maybe a one shot or a side quest.
Easiest way is have results of doing nothing. Dont stop it, then what motivation do they have. If they want to still go, they will have to then try and figure out how they intend on getting there. stop telling them how to solve it and make them consider trying stuff else it goes bad. The rowboat, coulda had same outcome of washing ashore with an additional result for just sitting there. Also consider, why do they not try stuff? Are they bored, not immersed or when they try stuff they usually fail and GM tells solution?
I think at this point I'd just have a talk with my players outside the game. A lengthy, extensive talk. I'd ask questions. Ask why are they playing, what do they want to get out of the game. Heck, i'd even be so forward and maybe say "why don't you ever think outside the box? It seems to me like you never even try to think about how to solve any situations I throw at you without trying to stab it to make it go away. You have a wealth of options in front of you, but for some reason, you always say yes to everything and try to solve every problem with a fight."
My players were like that(deep down they're still murderhobos), but I told them about my time playing with other friends and the plans we came up with. Since then, they started to think outside the box, although as I said: they kill everything with better plans now!
I remember in my very first DnD game, everyone else in my party wanted to find a way to ambush the dragon we came across. We were all around level 1 or 2 at the time. I was the only one who wanted to try talking to the dragon. Guess who got to ride a dragon into battle for a brief period of the game.
Sounds like a “talk to your players” situation. If they are expecting the DM to lay out all the options, the campaign is gonna go nowhere fast. Perhaps tell the party to select one of them as leader to encourage at least one person to be thinking ahead? Although if none of the players want anything other than an on the rails campaign, there’s nothing you can do.
If you want them to think then I'd have a thief go into a house, have one notice. Theft goes badly, players notice screams. And have a bbeg be formed who gets stronger every time they do nothing. The victims of their inactions joining their horde
I had a group like that, but not as bad. I started by giving them 3-4 options of what they can do and always add "or make up your own option" choice. It only took my group a few to come up with their own choices. But like i said, my group wasn't that bad
=> Ask your players if that's what they want. Maybe you have a group that doesn't think a single minute between sessions about the game and that's totally fine for them. Therefore they don't know what their charakters can do, what the NPC mean for them (because they barely remember) etc. And maybe that is fine for them. Maybe they just want to meet with their friends, have a nice time and the RPG is the framework for all that. There is nothing wrong with that. And it would help if the GM would know that. => If you don't want an encounter to be won via combat you can indirectly tell the players: "All of your characters are convinced that this enemy is too strong to take on directly. Your characters get nervous because they are sure they need a different solution, or a trick to get out of the iminent combat." If the players still want to fight, or have no clue what else to do you can remind them: "So your character still brace for the fight although he is convinced to loose the battle?". If they fight let them get captured and let them meet another captive who is a veteran adventurer/general/soldier who has a lot of experience but has lost some limbs so is not capable of fighting. The veteran could see the players an option to escape and asks them for their abilities. Maybe even train them, so that the characters as well as the players see different options ingame. => Try to reward these "out of context" actions more, even if it is a bit unreasonable. In your example whith the ship when you were happy that the barbarian was cutting loose the ropes. Directly describe something like "You cut the first coupl of ropes and immediately the ships drift abit apart from each other and a dozen Orc pirates fall into the water because of the bigger gap. You can already see that the crew can now better manage the situation, but there are still some ropes to got that keep the ships together." If you think inside your head "hey that is a great idea." noone knows. => But yeah I also had in a group the night watch observe thieves stealing the horses of the party without intervening. Sometimes people just are not mentally present.
OK, they are definitely on different pages. First step is to have a session 0, figure out what everyone wants out of the game. I see a few possible Scenarios here. 1) They arn't all that interested in playing DnD at all. Maybe this is just a social event and they don't really care about the game and they would be just as happy playing Mario Party, or a board game or watching Anime together. Recommendation: Stop playing DND, go find something else you all enjoy to do together. 2) They arn't all that interested in the social or thinking bits of the game, they just want a endless stream of monsters to kill and loot to, well, loot. Recommendation: If you can have fun with in, run a endless dungeon. If not, look into playing something like Wrath of Ashardalon or some other DND based coop board game. Alternatively, see if one of them would be willing to GM a few games, perhaps run a every other session, with campaign 1 being a hacknslash and campaign 2 being a bit more cerebral. This is probably the roughest of the 3 scenarios because you have the very real chance that the only solution is to just stop playing because you can't find a way to all have fun. Been there, it sucks. 3) They just don't know any better. Perhaps its too much time playing ultra linear JRPGs, or a Railroading GM who burnt all the initiative out of them. This can be resolved but it can take a light touch. Players usually end up playing the way they have been taught to play. If they are consistently rewarded for out of the box thinking (OOTBT), they will grow and continue to do it. If OOTBT is ignored or worse, punished, they will shy away from it. So reward them for doing stupid crap. At first reward them for even bad ideas if they took the time to come up with something. Bonus idea: Run a Groundhogs day campaign. Don't provide hints and let horrible horrible things happen when they let the game just pass them by. And when they all end up dead, start over. Soon they should try doing different things, REWARD them. The trick is to get them used to the idea that doing something that might be a bad idea is infinitely better then not doing anything at all.
Players become disinterested when their characters have nothing to gain or lose. Have a Zeroeth Session JUST for planning out backstories, NPC and PC relations and personal motivations. Then INCLUDE those somehow into the story. Maybe the continent is someplace a PC wants to go to because his dying father insisted, or maybe a PC got orphaned by Orc pirates, or maybe their ship has a priceless something that the orc pirates are after. Make your players invested in the story for them to be thinking outside the box.
It sounds like they're playing two different games. The DM wants to play Chess, while the players are busy eating their checkers. I would just see if I could find a a different group to play with.
Okay, listening to the story I do notice bursts of creativity from the players that makes me wonder... maybe this is a DM problem? I mean, they manage to fight off an encounter they weren't supposed to win at all for a little while, they made it that far and all that, so I can think of one of two things that appear more likely to me: 1) The scene isn't being described well enough 2) Player disinterest I'm banking on the second one myself, in which case just talk to the players. I mean, the fact that they said "guess we'll die" in the final scenario but there is no mention of any particular anger or feeling like they got railroaded does scream "disinterested players" to me, so just ask them directly if they're having fun or not. I dunno, I'd have to actually sit in on a session to be doing more than talking out my ass on this one, but player disinterest fits the story best IMO.
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What do you think? Are the DM and players on different pages? What would you do?
The Players were on different pages and it felt like they just wanted to skip most of the stuff unless it is talked about. They act like it is a video game that put their whole party and such in danger and just kinda sunk the whole game. Kinda sad.
They could cast a fire bolt into the Canon blowing it up and also the shooter
I would create an encounter that they would die if they tried to fight and if they don't think of a way out the campaign is just over.
What I would do is make the DM watch your video about the DM who put his party in a dungeon that could only be solved by individual skills.
Make them think for themselves to work their way out.
Have them look over there items and spells more and give them less dire situations, like have the dwarf ask if any of them have a fire spell to light his torch or prestidigitation to make his burnt dinner taste better. Let him explain how spells work and how they can be used (practically outside of combat.)
‘Guess we’ll just die then’ this goes beyond not being creative they just don’t care what happens as long as it happens.
They sound like the kind of people that, when faced with a time bomb with a ''off'' button 10 feet away, will just say "Welp, we're boned." and die
Once one of my players said that. He’s usually so creative. “ are you sure” “ yeah, I just wave my hands around and wait for the Minotaur to maul me to death “ “ ok, he charges towards you and ---FRICKIN DIES!!! When I was waving my hands I was actually casting invisibility on the spear on the ground and using mage hand to lift it up! Suck my arcane a$$ cow head looking @$$ twerp! BOOYAH!
@@Spiceodog I love this so much. My arcane trickster might use it at some point :)
@@demogorghon to be fair, I came up with the idea first, but that was more then a year and a different in between when I had a npc use the invisible spear and when he did but “ suck my arcane a$$ “ was a original saying
unless you get railroaded into defeat so that DMPC can "heroically" save them. then it's okay to say that
Players: "Alright DM, when does the train leave?"
DM: "What train?"
Players: "You know.... aren't you going to railroad us? The internet told me that's how this game works."
DM: "Ummm.. railroading is usually a... bad thing"
This is the first time I've heard a story of a reverse railroad
Honestly, if a group of players acted like this in my campaign, my first thought would be that they're trying to passive-aggressively tell me they aren't having fun and don't want to keep playing.
Sounds like a "talk to your players"-situation. They are expecting "fight the enemies, go where told" from the sound of it, but the DM is asking for creative problem solving outside of "kill the enemies". Might want to have a chat with them about that. Otherwise they'll keep going on autopilot and just sit to die in the next boat, unless someone tells them otherwise.
Agreed, they might be expecting a different kind of campaign to what the DM wanted. To me it sounds like they are expecting more of a war gaming, video game like campaign rather than RP and Exploration, they also might be new and are still used to the limitations that video games have. My first group was like this and I was frustrated about it, but I have come to peace with it by letting them now and then once I got their answer, I just made it a hack and slash adventure.
agreed. Point out to them that the campaign is written to encourage creativity from the players to work around the situations. If they just want a railroad parade of fights it would be best to shelve this campaign and toss them an old fashion dungeon crawl with lots of monsters to smack around but few puzzles.
I've had similar issues before with my players even after a session 0 where we went over expectations. Talking with players will make things go by much more smoothly once everyone is on the same page.
To me it sounds like the players aren't actually interested in playing. Or they are so new, they have absolutely no idea what TTRPG is. So the solution is either "talk" or "find new people".
I don't think they are interested in a campaign style of D&D and there is nothing wrong with that.
The challenges of a high school teacher, teaching independent thought.
Higher education as well
It's college too nowadays.
And then immediately regretting it as the student goes on to abuse that power 😂
To bad most teachers don’t teach that. Could use more
They don't seem to really do that anymore
If you don't think outside the box, you'll end up in the box...
I agree
That is a true fact.
We see proof of that in the REAL WORLD too.
A wooden one, six feet below ground level.
They're so far in that box, they're practically inside of a Russian matryoshka nesting doll! xD
These people have played DnD before? This sounds like a bunch of people who have never played RPGs in video games, much less a tabletop.
Or even watched a single movie in their lives
RPGs nowadays hold your hand so much you don't need to think, my first thought was: They are young and only ever played video games, unless the possible solutions are glowing in their face, they won't know
@@lextrux Emergence has always been a challenge for video game developers, because player creativity is really hard to program for. Emergence is almost impossible without pitting players against each other.
@@kp6378 true, however, back in 'ye olden days' you at least had to figure out clues and figure out relatively difficult puzzles (or at the least they made you think)... Nowadays it's just 'follow the marker and turn the statue to meet the respective stones'
@@lextrux reminds of core pokemon games and its railroaded plot. Holding ya hand from the beginning to post. Then we got mystery dungeon. Once you get to do jobs you're mostly on your own and no rush to complete the story.
It is painful how uninspired these players sound. This campaign sounds like the sort of thing That I’d have a blast with because of how much thee DM encourages atypical problem solving.
Heck, the moment I saw a pirate ship full of Orcs approaching I’d be rigging together a plan to turn the merchant’s ship into a powder keg, evacuate with as much of the crew as possible and then trigger an explosion with a fire spell to take out the Orcs and their ship while they’re busy boarding. Might not have worked out perfectly, but I’d at least have been planning something to save the client, the crew and leave one less pirate ship afloat.
This is how dnd with my friends is, except I'm a much worse DM doing it because no one else will
I'd be running up my own pirate flag as they came into view and improvise from there :D
my group did that to some pirates.
The barbarian did good though, the barbarian sounds like a very good player
Why would you wait until they're boarding? Most ships carry at least one or two ballistae for defence.... aim them at where the mast meets the sail. Just before firing, coat the arrowhead with oil, set it on fire, then launch. I don't care if the enemy ship is fully crewed with minotuars.... their ship is made of wood, and fire is the last thing that anyone wants on a sailing ship.
Even if the ballastae miss the masts, they're going to punch flaming holes into the sails.... and now you've given the enemy crew a whole problem to worry about.
Never mind not being on the same page, this DM and players are in completely separate books at opposite ends of the library. Sounds to me like the players thought they would be playing Skyrim.
This is the kind of situation that can easily be resolved by just talking to the players. More specifically, ask them what they expect from D&D, then give them more of that. It might be boring for the DM to run, but if they can get the players invested, then they can start introducing some more interesting things.
Not even Skyrim holds the players hand that much. Talking with the players is definitely the way to go; there's a big disconnect between player and DM expectations.
@@kp6378 I don't see talking actually helping here. The DM seemed to be giving hints quite a bit, but none of the players even tried short of the barbarian sort of. Talking and sessions 0's can only do so much. Plus plenty of these stories probably do have sessions 0's, so that ends up making the players look worse because they know what the DM is wanting to do and they still don't try. By that point you can't do anything but drop the group and look for a new one.
There's probably a more tactful way to put this: ask the players why they're there, what they're hoping to get out of the game. It sounds to me like they aren't even playing, like they don't seem to understand player agency as a concept.
I like the way you worded that. Well put
Better idea.... each player has to write two paragraphs about their character. History, beliefs/mindset, religion (if applicable), and ... why are they here? Out of all of the reasons to explore this world, what made you come here, as opposed to some other region? I mean, money can be made anywhere, what made you choose this place?
Last episode: Party doesn't want to think out of character
This episode: Party doesn't think at all
If those two met and exchanged players... Wouldn't it be a perfect match?
That's not even not thinking outside the box, they don't even think XD.
They are pointed at with a cannon, and have a full repertoire of spells, abilities, and weapons they could use. And they simply go "I guess I'm dead".
One of the best moments from the wizard in the party
Me ( dm) : your blocked off from the rest of your party, backed into a dead end hallway, and the Minotaur is rearing up to charge what do you do?”
Wizard: “ wave my hands and die i guess, I’m at low health and don’t stand a chance”
Me: “ you sure, your usually smarter then this”
Wizard yeah
Me: “ the Minotaur rears up and charges imp-- him: AND FRICKIN IMPALES HIMSELF! I wasn’t actually doing nothing, when I waved my hands around, I was actually casting invisibility on the spear on the ground, and using mage hand to hold it up! SUCK MY ARCANE @$$ COW HEADED LOOKING A$$ LACTOSE LOSER!!! FRICKEN IMPALE YOURSELF IN THE HEAD LIKE THE BOVINE BUFFOON YOU ARE! SUCK AN UDDDDER!!!!!!!!
@@Spiceodog THAT'S HOW TO PLAY RP DAMMIT!!! XD
YOU REALLY GET IT!!!
To me it sounds like these players are new to rpgs. I would probably act in a similar way, since tabletop rpgs give so many options on how to tackle issues that it becomes hard for new players to understand how creative they can actually be.
I played a tabletop rpg once with my friends and I was completely lost, I had no idea what I was capable of. Even playing BG3, which is digital and has more restrictions, the game had me baffled for 20 hours with all the things I could do and had no idea about.
I guess one way for the players to catch that they should be more creative is by having a more experienced player acting as an example.
Recommend a sesson where they arrive to a town that looks normal except there no villigers. Leave it at that and let them decide the their action and don't get angry if they sit for awhile doing nothing.
If they investigate, roll a dice behind the a screen without telling them the results so they hear the sound. Don't give then any hints or clues what going on unless they role high. Let them explore and describe that the house were breaking down and filled with supplies such as gunpowder, weapon and loot.
Reality, this town is belongs to the pirates and no one there because they were on the boat that attack them. After a bit, describe that they are coming home and giving the players 2 choices: run or fight.
This might not work if the players are just looking for a hack 'n slash game. I'd be a little worried about the campaign ending in tragedy as the party just sits down and waits for death.
I am using something like this if I run into this same situation. :3
This reminds me of two players who I used to play a lot with. The first player always wanted to win and the second player never wanted to lose. When things did not turn out the way they wanted, they used to give up, do nothing and wait for the game to hand them victory on a silver plattern.
Note I'm only 4 minutes into the video but 2 suggestions and a piece of advice.
1. Give them a puzzle that they can't stab there way out of
2. Give them in world consequences to things, like if they forget the map they don't get to have it.
But most importantly stopping holding there hands, I teach my players early on that for everything you do and don't do there will be consequences later on, and if they belive me or not is up to them.
I should mention, keep it fairly easy and light right away. Like the locked door thats not locked, when they go to turn the handle it appears locked, they try to pull or shove it up it doesn't move. The reason is because you have to slide it open.
Yeah the moment someone says oh ok let me go back into the place we snuck into, you will be caught you will face consequences you will suffer something
@@soul1d
By god no, bad advice.
If one of these players actively says "Wait I go back into the place we just robbed, to see if I can get even more", the DM has already encouraged the player to think for himself. Do not, I repeat, do not punish him then with making his character suffer. That is great for parties who already think crazy, but not for this one.
@@_Woody_ then make them have an interaction, a moment of almost getting caught. A hey who are you from a maid or a guard etc, not just they went back got it and came back
@@soul1d
Yeah that is better
I can say I've faced this problem SO many times I'm glad *finally* someone is talking about it. So many games were ended before they could begin because of this attitude, it's like finding the holy grail to me any time I do a roleplay that actually engages me and makes me think creatively. I get it some people can't do 'outside the box' thinking or roleplay well but it seriously gets old after the tenth time and takes the fun away.
4:42 You know it’s bad when the barbarian is the only character coming up with good ideas.
With traveling I roll a 1d20 that gives different effects depending on how it lands, for every day of travel for ship travel:
1. Forgot random item in the port usually nothing too bad, but make a player part with something
2. Rain
/storm, can't stab the weather.
3. Someone found over board, could be a new adventurer!
4. rotten ration
, see if they'll con save threw eating it.
5. thief on board, now we're playing among us!
6. Going the wrong way +1 day travel
, anyone have cartography?
7. smooth sailing -1 day travel
8. A child is found/hiding on the ship
9. Iceburg ahead, see if the players want to play in the snow, or search it for some enemy?
10. Merchant ship shopping time?
11. torn clothing, sleeping bag etc.
minor repairs.
12. Another ship shows up, could have plague or need help.
13. Party searches the ship and finds something like a good luck charm, or the captains ... drugs.
14. Pirates, or mutiny
15. Booze offered to the party
, tavern brawl always fun!
16. Random loot box (d4 1. mimic 2. clothes/minor loot 3.nothing 4.potions)
17. Find a ghost ship that gives an item/advice (stat up)
18. Slave trader heading somewhere, international waters, ethics meet morals~
19. sail breaks/something breaks
and anyone got wood working skill?
20. Nothing happens
These players are playing non-player characters
And this is exactly why you need a session zero and some time with each player before you run stuff. Sometimes it just doesn't work.
Good luck finding people who will appreciate the work you put in, it sounds really fun.
I have to say you are amazing at dropping videos right when I'm searching for something good to watch perfect ty
Players that WANT to be on the railroad? To each their own I guess.
Jeez. it's stories like this that make me thankful that my group is full of creative problem solvers that like to roleplay.
I'd recommend the DM to simply talk to their players. This can be easily solved by them asking their players to think a bit more outside the box, or, if that's really to no interest for the players, for the DM to concentrate on good battle encounters so everyone can enjoy themselves.
They could also lure them easily in some twist-traps, like letting them battle people they shouldn't and realize what they did wrong later :)
You could talk to them but if they just can not think of anything because they are uncreative you could throw puzzles at them(can not be solved with fighting) that are not that hard and slowly make them harder. You could also reward your players when they do something creative or really cool with inspiration or advantage or anything else really.
Was there a session zero? This problem may have come to light if there was one.
Yeah op mentions it early in the video. They told their players what the campaign was gonna be and they played it
@@Margolias In that case, session zero's importance isn't the problem, I think it's just a lack of initiative on the party's part. They need to understand that they are playing as a team and have to come up with their own plans, very few DMs would be willing to spoon-feed them their options. because if they can't be creative, then their fun in ttrpgs is limited.
First DM mistake was suggesting any actions. Let the players do things, or not. Let the captain get shot? Hope someone can keep the crew from piracy now. Dont get a vital item? Now they are prepared for you. Dont warn people in time? Others have combat advantage. Make them think now, or think about it later.
the dm needs to have a sit down with the players
Wow, I wasn't expecting to be early, lol. D&D is a game where the DM and the players get together and all tell a story. I guess some people would rather sit there and pretend they're the characters in a story someone else is telling, rather than tell their own.
These players are worse than NPCs in MMOs ! I bet they just spend their time on their phones during the whole game except when in combat
The barbarian did fine IMO
Some people don't think that way. Like I roleplay but I'm better with diplomacy, figuring out heists and strategy but without a goal, I find I'm less interested.
I'm pretty new at DnD and can be this type of player sometimes.
Me: I'll use the help action.
DM: ok, how do you help?
Me: uh, I have no idea.
My suggestion for people struggling with this is to watch other players who play well, on youtube or podcasts etc. This gives me ideas of things to copy and add on to. A DM could have the players watch a particular campaign as homework, and then encourage the players to try things they saw in that.
Alena, i'm going to have to disagree with you on that. more often than not, that's how the Matt Mercer effect happens. when new players get to look at something like Critical Role, Adventure Zone, etc. they often expect that they HAVE to play like those people, because that's how D&D is "meant to be played". not to mention it leads to a lot of disappointment when the game isn't like what they saw. Note, that not being able to do crazy out of the box stuff is fine, especially if you are new. as a DM, i'd rather people learn how the game works before trying to go crazy with it. i'm DMing some new players right now who are like that, and it fine for they are still learning.
Along with some of the good suggestions in this post, I’d include the possibility of adding a fourth player. Someone who with experience who can think and act creatively, and who may offer suggestions to his party in these situations.
I honestly fear though, that if the DM can't bring them to roleplay and think creative, the best thing would be to call the group quits. I have seen time and time again, that people can't get into roleplay and unorthodox problem solving if not everybody on the table already does it. So it could be best for the players to split into groups which roleplay alot already. It's easier to break the ice if you are not the first one "making a fool out of yourself".
If that is not possible, I have also seen groups learning to roleplay and be more open about ideas. But depending on the group it takes alot of time and this group is leaning very extremely in the opposite direction. I could understand it if the DM would be too frustrated at one point.
Best thing is to talk about it, if they say they would like to try it with RP and an open playstyle then great build on that abd take it slow, if they tell you they are not there for RP, then the DM should give up on subtle tricks to make them do it. It is possible to "train" them without them knowing but it's alot of work and beeing a DM can honestly be enough work already. It is not only the DM's responsibility to make it a fun game, the players are responsible just as much.
But if it is the sole wish for this DM to turn it into an epic RP Saga he will need determination and be ready to put in more hours.
Get them into social adventures with lots of talking. Everytime they try to answer NPCs out of character, do not answer them, instead remind them to talk in character. This will maybe be annoying at first, but should help them to get into the character at later stages.
Write a detective mistery and be open about it. They can't just stand around in this one. Do the extra work and make it hard and conflicted, with time tables, false leads, gathering evidence etc.
If they feel lost, only give them minor hints. Never enough to fill the next hour.
If they have backgrounds, sit down and talk them out in one on one meetings. Then build them into your campaign.
Give them problems with obvious choices. Like in a videogame, describe how they could be doing A, or B or try out C.
They will have limited options and won't think entirely outside the box, but they get comfortable with free choices without actually having free choices.
Always tell them what they have missed. I know this can be a bummer. I never advocate to play with open cards as a DM. Honestly one could write himself in a corner that way, happens to the best.
But in this case it will help.
They will be pissed about that 10k gold stash they missed in the strange looking room, if they just had checked the walls.
They will be furious if they get to know which NPC has betrayed them a couple of sessions ago, if only they had killed him right then and there.
Push them into sessions where logic alone leads them to seeing that doing nothing will result in death.
Use whatever, the ship was already a good example so go more extreme. Crushing buildings, raging fires or my favourite but not DnD friendly plane crash with one parachute fewer than there are characters.
But seeing the ship failed, just let them die. Again I never advocate for this kind of DM bs, to just kill the party. But it is necessary. Either they learn and you will have a *good* campaign or they break after the sixth TPK and *end a bad* campaign. Win win
I had this same issue with my D&D group and here is what I did...1) have a quick chat with them before the session and provide examples 2) I started incorporating their backstories into things they may/may not notice without rolls. For example, one character was a mercenary so he would have more of an eye for tactical/military situations. This lets me “prime the pump” of their imagination so to speak and 3) realize that players are dumb. I say that last point with the utmost love as I have been a player myself, but sometimes it’s hard to remember that they don’t know what the DM knows. What is obvious to us, because we built the world, scenario, etc probably isn’t noticeable to them. It took over a year of “behavioral training” but now they are starting to really make me think on my feet. I hope this helps.
Without telling the group what you're wanting exactly. I'd watch a fun TH-cam vid. That shows good rp, like Man Shorts or something fun like that. Then casually guide a conversation after vid. Saying things like "holly cow, I really liked how they xyz." Then it's just a fun pre-season activity. 10-20min tops. Maybe bring a pizza for a chill environment. A really cool DM I had did that once. I was knew to DND, and game rp became fun and more intuitive for me after that. Sounds like they just need there horizons broaden. What a fun sounding campaign you've provided them.
They are on massively different pages, but I might have a trick to help.
Have them need to infiltrate an enemy camp, but it is heavily guarded, to the point of being suicidal if they charge in head on. If they pass a basic 10 Perception, have them notice a specific wagon but entering and exiting... A Traveling Performers Caravan.
Once they're in, have them perform to gain access to the enemy leader, but they actually roleplay what they do in the performance IRL.
Here's the kicker... If it turns out disastrous, they are dragged to him as punishment. If it turns out great, describe the encore performance (unless they want to follow it up IRL) and are treated to a private meal with the enemy. Either way, they find their way in, but they have to wait for it.
If this fails, you and your group need to have a chat
Same as a few other commenters recommend: set up a session with a plot hook where nothing will happen until the players decide to look into it. Have them accustom themselves to make their own decisions.
it sounds a lot like they just have no real attachment to their characters. that's a big problem so you may want to find a way to make them see their characters a little more important to them. perhaps during these campaign moments add small hints of personal touch for each of the characters. During player birthdays in my game. Our dm has given special gifts to each of the players in a form of a raggedy child from their race that just acts as a mysterious Delivery boy or girl, and then just responds with it's from the big guy and points upward then scampers off, usually gone by the time they chase after them. each item having a more personal bonus to it. that works with their characters and playstyle. it helps people want to stick around Also he sneaks different Loot into the looting and other hidden areas of the world to give us a reason to search areas and sparks interest with dialogue as well. all of these are good ways of adding some more personal investment touches to the world they are playing in. I recently had to stop playing with them over some player drama, BUT aside from that I always looked forward to hearing more of the story because I felt like my character had a point for being there. whether it was my role, My backstory involvement, or even the many achievements my character ended up making along the way. I mean we even ended up side stepping the whole end of the world campaign until recently when a Goddess herself reminded us of it lol
Ok so I've had this problem a few times and generally my players are really good about being creative but sometimes they're running on low power mode it seems. What I'll do is just play my NPC's/monsters do what they do, or if they are intelligent entities have them show more tactics or throw a few spells that the party might have forgotten about, if you can trigger them to suddenly be like "oh hey yeah!". Also I think when OP said the Barbarian had a spear, narrate that a little if they are hitting a mental road block, like "there's a cannon being pointed at you and you're briefly stricken with dread, but a voice in the back of your head reminds you that spear might buy you some time" Be creative, yes that puts a little more on the spot pressure on the DM but sometimes it does help.
I'll give an example from my game: I had the party come across a small Orc raiding party at a huge bonfire. Players were like level 5-6 so I gave these Orcs a couple extra hit die each to beef up the encounter a little and they had a Hobgoblin with them giving a morale boosting speech and riling them up. The party gets scouted and the Orcs come in hot, several front line shield/spear/axe and 4 archers in back with the Hob directing them. Party isn't making a whole lot of headway as they only have 2 front line holding back 6. Rogue asks me what she can see as they are all kinda stumped since these beefcake Orcs are actually winning. I tell her she sees the Hob in back directing them and they're following his direction, she finally asks if he's near them or in back and anyone around him, no one is around him, so she takes off to go flank and get her sneak attack bonus on. She gets there and distracts him, the Orcs slow down and seem to go into Orcish autopilot, the other Rogue and Ranger are like "hey we're surrounded by trees" and both climb up for vantage point and open up on the archers, Mage sees a break in the front line and casts at the archers as well then raises the few dead ones giving the party a few extra hands in the fight, turning the tables a bit. They win the fight finally but they had to earn it since they were losing ground early on. Sometimes spoon feeding an opening or subtly giving the idea might trigger lightbulbs and you get a really cool encounter.
Maybe try a one-shot with a series of "dummy" bosses with varying environments, and provide small hints and nudges to encourage them to think of alternative methods of dispatching them, or even options to evade encounters entirely using the landscape and defined boss properties to steadily encourage them to think critically about what and where they are fighting, and what that can do for them. Maybe also include some story elements, as this can play into what may and may not be possible in addition to the abilities of the characters. Like collapsing a ruin, which looked ready to go any day, on something's head, or luring them onto a marsh/ice which did not seem solid enough to hold a pc, never mind a large hefty boss, thus immobilising them, and leaving them open, or employing a natural weakness, such as using tight spaces to deny larger foes the option to turn to face them, provided they can find a way behind them. Something of the kind.
As the DM, I would create a scenario where the party wakes up one day, gets an escort mission from an npc and they come to a cross roads where they could fight (and will die) or find a creative way around the situation and survive. If they choose to fight and end up dying, I'd talk to the party about alternative solutions they could've taken. Then rerun that day from when they wake up and see what they do. Hopefully they'll learn to think of solutions besides hacking and slashing through the obstacle.
With my group I used to put them in extremely dangerous situations when they would just go head down without investigating. After the sessions we would talk about the game and told them stuff "you could have actually done that to avoid that". Now they learned and they ask 1000 questions to every NPC and study their surroundings even inside a tavern
Do what another DM on here did and create a "Tutorial mission" one that's not "figure it out or for" but encourages them to think creatively and use their abilities. Like one of the puzzles was doora based on each of their classes. Ajd as they fight skeletons when they use their class abilities a door unlocks. Maybe you can modify that to unlock when using something creatively and then toss them in before taking the training wheels off. Let them sink or swim and hopefully learn that creative thinking pushes them forward
It isn't "not thinking outside the box", it is "periodically stopping all brain activities"
If they aren't familiar with the the concept of "you choose what you want to do", the DM could really reward any creative thinking, e.g. do they like loot? XP? Pets? Give them stuff they like as creative rewards. And even say before a session, "I'm going to really reward creativity".
Maybe start by providing several options to let them choose their own adventure? E.g. handed a map from a guide, they can either hit up place A B or C. Get them to ask the guide questions about each place so they can gauge each option and pick the one they want. That'll start them asking questions on what to do, and over time phase out constantly providing options so they suggest them.
Just a thought, perhaps find out what draws the players attention. What do they like and what makes them want to get things done.
Then find a puzzle or mechanic that compliments this that is starts out simple at first (say a locked chest and a key, or a flimsy door that is locked. Make sure these details are the first thing the party knows about for them to get an easy solution to with a bit of room for improv). These puzzles would get trickier and complex over time and hopefully work with the party to the point, they can become aware of the things they can try in the game, no matter how silly it would seem.
Another idea is to talk to the players. You ought to do this first off to assure them they can be creative in the game, though you can also directly ask them what do they want to do in the game and find out what each of your and their expectations is. This way, they know what the DM has in mind, and the players get to tell the DM what they are willing to try in the game.
Thirdly is REWARD them whenever they do something you like. Whether it is in character, a cool moment, a funny thing or, in this case, done something to solve a puzzle or tried to do so creatively, you give them inspiration. Inspiration can go a long way, despite the bardic inspirations. A player getting loot for rewards is great in its own league though not as immediate as a god's sent from out of nowhere the players gets to use or give to other players when needed.
TLDR: See the Inspiration mechanic for DM's to players.
I have two possible solutions.
1) Get a player who knows how to think outside of the box and pray to Nuffle that these dimwits pick up what he's laying down.
2) Re:Zero these suckers! Make them repeat the campaign beat for beat until they figure something out, and then introduce new complications to keep them on their toes.
As a DM, I would make sure to populate the area, and manipulate time. Meaning, you see ropes on the side of the boat, a couple of orcs are distracted by something on the other side of the ship(possibly meaning a fight happening). As far as manipulating time. Cannons wouldn’t take one round to prep and fire. I would tell them they have 3 rounds to act to figure out how to not get blown to the depths of the sea. I think part of the reason the players won’t think outside the box is because they’ve already figured out that if they act improperly or choose to not act the DM will give them an option to act that will move the game forward and they can just rely on that. Rather than being creative themselves. I could be quite wrong with this thinking, but I think giving them options without telling them the options is the best way to go about getting them to think of solutions to the problems.
On top of that, if I were this DM, I’d remove the dwarf NPC. He’s thinking too much for the party. Matt Colville describes his NPCs as helpful but does not give good ideas. “Let us meet them in battle!” “Is that a good idea? Can we win?” Who said anything about winning? What a more glorious way to die?”
I. . . wow. I mean, I guess the only thing I could think to do is over-tutorialize everything. Like create unskippable puzzles and encounters that are entirely designed around ONE mechanic, ONE spell or combat technique or roleplaying method or whatever, and they need to figure out what that option is or the can't clear it. Give them some time and then nudge them toward the correct solution. It's a bit railroady for a normal campaign, but hopefully once they have used their moves more often they will get more comfortable with using them on their own. Maybe even design encounters with two solutions, one the "obvious" test, and one a bit more clever, just in case one of them figures that one out.
a lot of people here are saying that it's "sad that they couldn't think of anything." i would just like to remind everyone that people play games for different reasons. on top of that, some people are just not very out of the box thinkers. hell, one of my best friends is a good computer coder, but sucks when it comes to imagination. everyone has different skill sets, and if a player is new, they might just need time to figure everything out. as a DM, I'd rather have my new players learn how to play the game and their character sheet rather than try and me a mastermind of plans. that comes with time. Also, about my coder friend, when he plays D&D, he pretty much always plays the quiet strongman and likes to simply go along with whatever wacky thing the party does. he's not a leader and he's fine with that.
Me and my group are all new to D&D. They definitely started out more like this, so I just let things happen. Of course I'd give them ideas like would you want to jump out of the boat, but after awhile the kid gloves have to come off. If they die it will be okay, it's just a game. I would say it worked for my group, but we also had other issues like drinking to much during the game.
I didnt know someone could be worse than me at coming up with ideas
But even I would have done something when I saw someone lurking in the shadows or aiming a crossbow at the dwarf
YIRBEL LIVES! sheesh these guys feel like action based kenkus....
in like 2nd edition we had a new player(so its excusable) who we had put on watch while we slept. They heard some noises and went to investigate. without waking any of us. We all sat there wide eyed staring at them hoping they'd take the hint but they didn't and since we were IC sleeping we couldn't say anything. Somehow it did work out due to a nice DM understanding the situation, but we were all silently panicking. The look on there face while se stared was priceless though.
I would say the answer is escalating consequences. Scrutiny after the event that makes the party think "why didn't I worry about X", things like a town guard investigation, their hiring merchant's incident report, the consequences of X being dead upon the town. Then filter them towards puzzles that ask for lateral thinking and finally put them against a puzzle boss. Slowly use the challenges as a teaching tool.
Ok, this is a really weird situation. My DM has trouble keeping up with the players, and often gets a lot of “the players did WHAT?!” moments.
One of the weirder moments where we’re we’re supposed to clear a ranch of a bunch of orcs, and ended up challenging the leader to a one on one duel while we befriended them and then some players seduced some. The DM then Brough the orcs back later for some really good RP.
Suffice to say this isn’t a problem in our group.
Anyway, Sounds like the best way would be to talk to them, and use session zeros to set expectations.
Not even 3 minutes in and i already could tell that the players are just not interested or anything for that matter. If they have played before, then the dm did basically everything for them or discouraged thinking in game entirely. As a player any and all information in game can be crucial. As a dm i encourage my players to take notes to keep up with information. Either short hand or ask me to repeat it slowly to get all information. I award this behavior with either exp, or dm inspiration if they remembered something without writing it down, the next day before session.
I would make a few encounters that are puzzle based and can't be solved by fighting. like having them go into a room that has a lock machanism with a cleaver way to open and a magical enchantment on the door to prevent them chopping it down.
Sad part this happened to me in a dungeon the dragoning game. My previous character was captured and gone for a session or two. A time skip happens and they were meant to come back in a what appeared to be a defunct ship. The party wanted to just blast the ship and move on but the dm kept dropping hints that maybe there was something more to do there. All they had to do was hail the spaceship comms but instead we spent an hour with the group just wanting to destroy it since it was rapidly approaching them. Eventually they just buckled their seatbelts and waited not wanting to do anything else shortly after.
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These players: Yeah, I guess we'll do that.
It's an easy solution: be blunt and tell your players to use their heads.
In the example of the cannon about to fire at them, just pause the game and say: "take a few minutes to go over your character sheets and see if there's anything useful you can do, and feel free to bounce ideas off one another". Yes this is meta gaming, but in this case it's a learning experience for your group.
Maybe you should tell the DM to look up the story with the goblin that has the letter to do whatever he wants. The one from the governor, so that he can share it with them and they can have an idea of the fun shenanigans they can get into.
My first/current DM asked us after first session what ratio of rp, combat , exploration we are interested in. Also, as a player, sometimes I am just tired or confused and can't see obvious solutions. Maybe when situation like this rises DM could ask players to roll intelligence and give them solution based on that roll.
Oooh do I know this struggle.... I have a few stories from my party. The best one was probably the time they spent half an hour trying to open a door disguised as a wall..... they tore all the books off the shelves.... pulled all the torches off the walls... one of them tried bashing the door with his mace... They kept trying to push the door when opened by pulling on the handle and pressing the button hidden in it.... none of them thought to investigate the door........ This is a party of 7 people.....
They essentially kept trying to push a sliding door
I can't remember exactly what, but I know a while ago a story was featured on here where the dm taught their players to use class skills more by defeating enemies with them to open marked doors. I think something similar to that would help, an endless gauntlet of enemies that can only be stopped by solving a puzzle. Hopefully that'll inspire them to try something new and just not accept a deadly fate.
At the very first instance of out of the box thinking, award an inspiration point and make a huge deal out of it.
3:02 These players are clearly capable of planning and strategy, I think there is more that the DM isn't telling us.
Maybe he throws an absurd amount of red herrings out? Maybe many hints aren't as obvious as he makes them out to be?
Group needs a railroad DM. Rare case where it'd work out.
The dm should start encouraging every instance of creativity with loot. Maybe as the barbarian cuts a rope, it whiplashes around an orc's neck, dragging him up to the boat while cutting off the rest of his friends- and he has a nice belt
I think you're right the DM and players are on different pages. The easiest solution is to sit down and talk to the players about what it is that everyone wants out of the campaign. There's nothing wrong with a simple hack and slash if that's really what the players want. Also, like you said, maybe the players aren't experienced enough to know how to use their skills and abilities effectively. If the DM takes the time to explain everything to them, maybe they will start playing the way he wants them too.
any fire spell would be op on ships in this situation, also I would Prestidigitat a troll doll inside the Canon.
Control water would also beat pretty much any ship
@@Jthomas-gg9pi isn't it to weak to cause any damage or move large amounts of water tho?
@@irlbirdman1409 read the part water ability because it feels like you can create it under a ship
@@Jthomas-gg9pi you right, the spell wouldn't pop up on dnd beyond for some reason but yeah your right
Personally I’d ask for more feedback in game and make sure they know what type of campaign their in for. Cause if it their still new then you’ll know to go for more hack and slash route. Hopefully it’s only a communication issue.
If you are a player. Make sure you have an imagination and the ability to act on it. If you need inspiration to get the creative mind juices going, watch high fantasy movies old and new. You can use games but don't expect that kind of mechanics in DnD sessions. Just use these to get the look and feel to what it is like in DnD. It's up to the DM to set the tone and mood of the world that your characters live in. Then try to immerse your state of mind with it. If the DM Failed to tell you first what the tone and setting is before hand. That's not your fault but make sure to ask him right away.
When making your character add a little more flare to your character, by putting a little of your self into the character so you can feel comfortable. You don't have to act out being someone you're not at least not totally. Once you get settled in after a few session or games with your character and when you feel confident that's when you can try acting different character persona for a new character.
As for the DM make sure you describe the environment that the players find them selves in thoroughly. I usually start with the weather; hot, cold, warm, moist, wet, humid, etc etc. as the party transition from outside to inside wither it be into cave, city, sewer, or building. Play to the players 5 senses first before venturing describing more base on passive perceptions. For god sake make sure your players are paying attention. I had my fare share of space cases for players. I usually take them to the side and have 1 to 1 talk with them and ask them to just sit out and watch just maybe long enough that it would bring them down to earth and get them excited to finally to play or get them to leave the game entirely. During session zero run simulation encounters with players that play to your players character abilities. Show them how a cool Fire bolt an other cantrips works. How the Fighter Action Surge works, a rouges stealth mechanics work with sneak attack damage. So by level 5 everyone should know how to play there class and when you feel that the players are ready to advance more take them on the rest of the journey. But don't stagnate them for too long you don't want the hype to drain away. If you have bunch of new players have all of them be marshal classes with no spell casting if possible what so ever. Get them rely on potion shops, for survival and have them plentiful around to help get them to work together as a team first before throwing the indept story hooks that they come across. You want to beat the shit out of them not kill them out right. To make the players learn humility and desire revengance. Once the players have a common goal. That's when the game gets more fun and the players are engaged to go at the game. lol
It feels like there are two types of d&d groups. The ones who want to spend 30 minutes checking every nook and cranny of an empty room. And ones like these. Who are just oblivious to the world around them.
Yeah, it's pretty clear nobody's sharing a page here... It's a pretty standard "talk it out" scenario. The GM needs to figure out what the Players actually want out of the Game, and the Players NEED to know that they can always ask about doing stuff.
"You can ask about doing whatever you can think of." Is a line I've often repeated, especially with noob's... They often just don't understand that I haven't designed the Game with a specific list of what's allowed or not. SO I have to let them know and sometimes (some groups) need the reminder more than once.
Then of course, I have the responsibility of REWARDING the Players (and PC's) for thinking of stuff to do. Yeah, some of it's just boring when I have to back up and rebuild the Campaign to fit the Players and get kinda "railroady"... so they have something to do... a short list of the obvious (if nothing else)... BUT in time as they think of things to ask about or ask for, I reward it... the whole "yes-but" or "not exactly-but" etc... thing comes into full effect. I might not always just blithely give it away, but if someone finally asks to do something independent, don't think for a minute that I'm about to pass it up as an opportunity.
The main point is that everyone has a great time playing. That at least needs to be part and parcel with a TTRPG... SO as they grow, so will the Game. I can be patient... and sometimes it's difficult, but it's worth the investment. You have Players that are willing to get pre-programmed into your style of gaming, rather than being the blanket assholes most of us have to deal with, wrecking the World-setting with every possible breath... You should be tickled to death to have such maleable Players and be ready to input the softwares for them to work on. ;o)
DM: What kind of music do you like?
NPC: Whatever's on the radio
Give them actual puzzles. Something they can't brute force. Like a series of riddles, with each solution being something only each character would have.
One of the monsters I had to face once was a Perfect Mirror beast or something. It would naturally Copy your rolls and everything you did. So if you tried to swing a sword, it would magically brandish a sword and swing back at you. And since it was an exact copy, neither of you would take any damage. The same for magic spells.
-The way to beat this monster was to hurt yourself, which would cause the monster to hurt itself.
Or, what I did... I pointed an Unloaded crossbow at myself and fired, tricking the beast into shooting itself with its own crossbow
Yep, this is the group I'm trying to DM. It is physically painful to watch 5 people try to get through a session with the collective creativity of a snail.
Ok so the DM should be looking at the points they *begun* to think creatively but fell short. Breaking into the mansion to question a prisoner and starting a generic brawl AS A DISTRACTION, but they forgot one task they had to do (get the map). You have two ways of addressing it, either
(a) encourage them to make a sort of 'objectives' shopping list (a bit like quests in Skyrim have for instance), I would perhaps note this has the risk of encouraging them to only go for objectives written down and not adapt, but it's a possibility.
(b) Adapt the mission. I mean they have quite possibly just had the map slip their mind then, but maybe there is a way for them to get the necessary intel without the written map, or maybe there is a more incomplete scrawled one at the house of one of the missing people, or maybe it pops up on their way to escape the mansion (y'know obviously pointed out fancy treasure chests are irresistible)!
And the second point, the Barbarian cutting the ropes, the DM kinda failed in that they didn't reward the Barbarian's quick thinking it sounds. A better way then "are you going to help them" might have been to have the barbarian start, and note that it is slowing down the boarding of the vessel and being partially successful, then see how the rest of the party responds - they may have joined in with the barbarian, or prepared to fight the orcs which do make it on board buying the barbarian more time to cut the ropes, or something else unexpected.
The key thing is not to expect the players to magically change overnight and be the most creative thinkers, but the points they do begin to think creatively, reward that in some way either in the short term, long term, or ideally both. They should hopefully start to see over time "oh, clever solutions win clever prizes" and begin to think of newer solutions.
it's hard to change the mindset of people that are not wanting to. Unless they actively want to change then it's not going to get better, you could try inviting someone you know that can think for themselves and teach them that way. Not in the main campaign but maybe a one shot or a side quest.
Easiest way is have results of doing nothing. Dont stop it, then what motivation do they have. If they want to still go, they will have to then try and figure out how they intend on getting there.
stop telling them how to solve it and make them consider trying stuff else it goes bad. The rowboat, coulda had same outcome of washing ashore with an additional result for just sitting there.
Also consider, why do they not try stuff? Are they bored, not immersed or when they try stuff they usually fail and GM tells solution?
The number of times this DM describes his reaction as a stunned "...okay" is both wrong and highly entertaining.
I think at this point I'd just have a talk with my players outside the game. A lengthy, extensive talk. I'd ask questions. Ask why are they playing, what do they want to get out of the game. Heck, i'd even be so forward and maybe say "why don't you ever think outside the box? It seems to me like you never even try to think about how to solve any situations I throw at you without trying to stab it to make it go away. You have a wealth of options in front of you, but for some reason, you always say yes to everything and try to solve every problem with a fight."
I'd just say "remember, this is supposed to be a collaborative effort, if you want to do *anything* just say so, and we'll take it from there.
Hehehe... you know something is out of place when the Barbarian has the only good idea... :)
My players were like that(deep down they're still murderhobos), but I told them about my time playing with other friends and the plans we came up with. Since then, they started to think outside the box, although as I said: they kill everything with better plans now!
I remember in my very first DnD game, everyone else in my party wanted to find a way to ambush the dragon we came across. We were all around level 1 or 2 at the time. I was the only one who wanted to try talking to the dragon. Guess who got to ride a dragon into battle for a brief period of the game.
Sounds like a “talk to your players” situation. If they are expecting the DM to lay out all the options, the campaign is gonna go nowhere fast. Perhaps tell the party to select one of them as leader to encourage at least one person to be thinking ahead? Although if none of the players want anything other than an on the rails campaign, there’s nothing you can do.
If you want them to think then I'd have a thief go into a house, have one notice. Theft goes badly, players notice screams. And have a bbeg be formed who gets stronger every time they do nothing. The victims of their inactions joining their horde
I had a group like that, but not as bad. I started by giving them 3-4 options of what they can do and always add "or make up your own option" choice. It only took my group a few to come up with their own choices. But like i said, my group wasn't that bad
=> Ask your players if that's what they want. Maybe you have a group that doesn't think a single minute between sessions about the game and that's totally fine for them. Therefore they don't know what their charakters can do, what the NPC mean for them (because they barely remember) etc. And maybe that is fine for them. Maybe they just want to meet with their friends, have a nice time and the RPG is the framework for all that. There is nothing wrong with that. And it would help if the GM would know that.
=> If you don't want an encounter to be won via combat you can indirectly tell the players: "All of your characters are convinced that this enemy is too strong to take on directly. Your characters get nervous because they are sure they need a different solution, or a trick to get out of the iminent combat." If the players still want to fight, or have no clue what else to do you can remind them: "So your character still brace for the fight although he is convinced to loose the battle?". If they fight let them get captured and let them meet another captive who is a veteran adventurer/general/soldier who has a lot of experience but has lost some limbs so is not capable of fighting. The veteran could see the players an option to escape and asks them for their abilities. Maybe even train them, so that the characters as well as the players see different options ingame.
=> Try to reward these "out of context" actions more, even if it is a bit unreasonable. In your example whith the ship when you were happy that the barbarian was cutting loose the ropes. Directly describe something like "You cut the first coupl of ropes and immediately the ships drift abit apart from each other and a dozen Orc pirates fall into the water because of the bigger gap. You can already see that the crew can now better manage the situation, but there are still some ropes to got that keep the ships together." If you think inside your head "hey that is a great idea." noone knows.
=> But yeah I also had in a group the night watch observe thieves stealing the horses of the party without intervening. Sometimes people just are not mentally present.
There are several low-level area effect spells that could have taken out the pirate ship. Shatter, Fireball, and Lightning Bolt are all low level.
Communication is KEEEEY !!!!
setting expectation
OK, they are definitely on different pages. First step is to have a session 0, figure out what everyone wants out of the game. I see a few possible Scenarios here.
1) They arn't all that interested in playing DnD at all. Maybe this is just a social event and they don't really care about the game and they would be just as happy playing Mario Party, or a board game or watching Anime together. Recommendation: Stop playing DND, go find something else you all enjoy to do together.
2) They arn't all that interested in the social or thinking bits of the game, they just want a endless stream of monsters to kill and loot to, well, loot. Recommendation: If you can have fun with in, run a endless dungeon. If not, look into playing something like Wrath of Ashardalon or some other DND based coop board game. Alternatively, see if one of them would be willing to GM a few games, perhaps run a every other session, with campaign 1 being a hacknslash and campaign 2 being a bit more cerebral. This is probably the roughest of the 3 scenarios because you have the very real chance that the only solution is to just stop playing because you can't find a way to all have fun. Been there, it sucks.
3) They just don't know any better. Perhaps its too much time playing ultra linear JRPGs, or a Railroading GM who burnt all the initiative out of them. This can be resolved but it can take a light touch. Players usually end up playing the way they have been taught to play. If they are consistently rewarded for out of the box thinking (OOTBT), they will grow and continue to do it. If OOTBT is ignored or worse, punished, they will shy away from it. So reward them for doing stupid crap. At first reward them for even bad ideas if they took the time to come up with something. Bonus idea: Run a Groundhogs day campaign. Don't provide hints and let horrible horrible things happen when they let the game just pass them by. And when they all end up dead, start over. Soon they should try doing different things, REWARD them. The trick is to get them used to the idea that doing something that might be a bad idea is infinitely better then not doing anything at all.
Players become disinterested when their characters have nothing to gain or lose. Have a Zeroeth Session JUST for planning out backstories, NPC and PC relations and personal motivations. Then INCLUDE those somehow into the story. Maybe the continent is someplace a PC wants to go to because his dying father insisted, or maybe a PC got orphaned by Orc pirates, or maybe their ship has a priceless something that the orc pirates are after. Make your players invested in the story for them to be thinking outside the box.
OP is literally just playing a game alone with a few people just sitting there
It sounds like they're playing two different games. The DM wants to play Chess, while the players are busy eating their checkers. I would just see if I could find a a different group to play with.
Okay, listening to the story I do notice bursts of creativity from the players that makes me wonder... maybe this is a DM problem?
I mean, they manage to fight off an encounter they weren't supposed to win at all for a little while, they made it that far and all that, so I can think of one of two things that appear more likely to me:
1) The scene isn't being described well enough
2) Player disinterest
I'm banking on the second one myself, in which case just talk to the players. I mean, the fact that they said "guess we'll die" in the final scenario but there is no mention of any particular anger or feeling like they got railroaded does scream "disinterested players" to me, so just ask them directly if they're having fun or not.
I dunno, I'd have to actually sit in on a session to be doing more than talking out my ass on this one, but player disinterest fits the story best IMO.