Probably the same. These guys were up their own asses in certainty about being right. That they were right fairly often made it a lot harder for them to see any sense when they weren't.
@@MarkoArillius I mean this video can totally still stand even if the new GoW franchise is perfect in every way. They aren't saying it's a bad story, they're just saying that II and III lacked the same artistic vision/deeper meaning to the story.
What makes Kratos unlikeable, isn't that he kills gods, it's that he kills those who help him, for instance there was one in the 3rd game who makes you a new weapon, and then you kill him for no reason. In the first one there is a bridge you need to cross and a man won't lower it for you, so you kill him and use him to lower it (I forget how). And it that case you don't feel that you have done anything wrong. In 3 there is a slave girl who you shove under a lever so you can advance, and she gets crushed, even though she had done nothing wrong.
+Chase Langlands Well, no. Spartan training revolved around building military strength (particularly military formations), not just being a dick to everyone in general. In real life, there was more sharing a common lifestyle and practicing discipline (like how a real-life military works) than "throwing children to wolves and the most bloodthirsty one that survives becomes king".
Having no experience regarding this game other than what you said in this video, it seems that the message of the series shows the descent of a human being into a pure elemental force of war. The fall of a complex being with remorse and tragedy and things into the type of flat character that any immutable god creature inevitably is. It is the stripping away of complexity and humanity until the main character has ceased to be anything but a clean avatar of destruction. The player loses choice because the character also loses it. I think it switches to first person to show that Kratos ceases to be human, and has become a fully realized, flat, undynamic, unfree, elemental expression of war, free to be inhabited and expressed by and through anyone, including the player.
+Jens Boettiger I thought about something similar. What if the change to first person in the end of the game symbolizes how violent and meaningless you are (instead of just the character)? That all the bad that has happened in the game happens because you choose it, you choose to play it killing a lot of people. It may be message from the creators of the game, something like "Our complex character became a meaningless killer because you players were controlling it, you wanted every new game more violent and with less story, so we needed to do it, then the burden of destroying this character is on you, you're the controller of Kratos"
+Matheus Oliveira da Silva And yet that stupid because they didn't give us a choice. GoW is a linear game, it's not you can win by killing or through peaceful means. it's go here kill things. Doing something like that after two mindles linear slaughterfest games comes out as pretentious and not as smart. I didn't do it, KRATOS did and why didn't I do it? Because the game never BOTHERED to ask me if I WANTED not to brutaly kill this guy.
Just recently introduced to you guys so apologies for the very out of date comment. For many of the reasons you outline, I really enjoyed the original God of War before the sequels became parodies of themselves. However, I disagree on your stance about the end of GOW3. Yes, Kratos comes back and puts you in first person to pummel Zeus w/ a QTE. But the fact that the punching continues indefinitely until the player stops following the button prompt stands out to me as it made me question my own actions. Before I knew that you could just stop once the screen went red, I kept punching for far longer than I needed to to resolve the story because I thought the prolonged brutality made sense for Kratos' rage toward Zeus. Eventually I thought it had gone on too long and that maybe my game had glitched so I stopped and the sequence ended. Why was I so ready and willing to continue mashing the button to beat the guy? Was I just doing what I thought Kratos would do (highlighted by the first-person element)? Was I, the player, taking out my frustration on the game and that final boss battle? Or was I just a automaton, responding to the button prompt as I had been conditioned to by that game and many others? It led to the most time I spent pondering the point of anything God of War related so for all the game's/series' fault, I at least credit it with how that final moment made me feel. Anyway, great series! I look forward to catching up to present-day videos and responding in a more timely fashion.
Actually the final moments of GoW3 were kind of clever in that they never said when to stop pressing circle and we all just kept mashing the button faster than in Metal Gear Solid. Guess it represents the audience truly embracing the violence as much as Kratos did.
Yeah, but it still don't really justify the whole hope and forgiveness dialogue from earlier. At most, it's giving you a choice between killing sues with your bare fists, or killing sues with your bare fists and beating up his corpse. Imagine if they allowed you to walk away in that last moment, when you went from third to first person. Not make it obvious, but maybe have a prompt by Zeus for punching, but still allow you to walk around.
I'm a little late but I just beat God of War 3 remastered and I think the point of the finale of the fight is when you're prompted to mash the circle button even after the entire screen goes red with blood, the prompt never goes and you have to decide on your own to stop hitting Zeus, and that might be why the perspective shifts to first person, to convey Kratos deciding to end his vengeance.
Is the entire series of God of War a greek tragedy? In the meaning that the series itself is a greek tragedy, not in the story, but in the series. The three points are: 1: Someone of high status brought low: Check. It got each time slightly lower scores by the public and the press. It got worse. 2: The actions don't have to be bad or evil. Characters are judged by their actions: Check. It's not that the third game is bad. It's just that they didn't do some things. 3: Tragedy:Check. They found out that it stopped getting the public attention it previously had and decided to kill the series. The last game that was not a remaster was from 2013. And there's no other game anounced. So, God of war is a greek tragedy on itself.
I disagree with the steady descent into ultra violence not having a point. At the beginning/end of the first game, Kratos tries to kill himself. He's hit rock bottom and just wants to end it all, after being saved we see him sitting on his throne and that it doesn't make him happy. He doesn't have his family, his wife and daughter will never return to him, of course he's going to just become more and more violent and arguably irritable and irrational, he has nothing to lose and violence is all he knows. In God of War 1 when he was a Captain his violence brought him prestige, when he killed his family and believed he could get them back through more violence he probably felt good again while he was killing. He probably thought, with every enemy I slay, with every swing, I get closer having my family again. He's been trained his whole life to believe that violence will bring him happiness, why wouldn't he get more and more violent?
Ruslan Victorenko umm then you'r not repeating the same exact thing. There's some sort of disturbance because computers always do the same thing every time.
No, they don't. Software works in mysterious ways, as do hardware. And yes, there is a disturbance; interference due to code. Let's take a simple one. Trying to reboot your computer, and Windows doesn't get to login screen. You reboot again, and does. Same action, different results. Either the saying is wrong, or indeed the world is insane, as same actions produce different results in various aspects.
MiningwithPudding All things carry an element of uncertainty of success or failure, which is why it is more insanity expecting same results upon same action. Computers more so than anything else, flawed perfectionists as they are.
This was a perfect analysis of the story. I was so disappointed that there even was a sequel to be honest. The first game was a self-contained story, and was completely fine as a standalone game. Only the realization that brand ID = $ made a sequel necessary. They could have even had a sequel in which the player could control a different character. The ancient Greek gods were spiteful and jealous. Giving the player control over a god would have allowed for the blood-soaked irredeemability without destroying the narrative. Zeus was an asshole...so were Poseidon and Hades. Athena was so jealous of Arachne's knitting skills that she turned her into a spider. None of the Greek gods were purely good...they were way too human for that.
+Doctor Nefarious He was a Titan; One of the few whom sided with the Gods in the Great War for Olympus. He was tasked with creating humanity and upon discovering how the Gods left them in the dark to be killed, he stole some of the Eternal Flame from Olympus and gave it to humanity. He is encountered in the 2nd game where Kratos gives him a mercy killing.
It was a good analysis, but I don't think it was perfect. The argument stands well considering what Dan, James, and Allison were working with. Little factoids like David Jaffe not being completely there for GoW II and III, the silly dialogue and the over emphasis in GoW III, and the knowledge the three main elements in Greek Tragedy really gives the argument in this video some weight. However, I know Dan missed a subtleties in and around the development of GoW II. He also did mention the other two games in the series, barring Ascension. Chains of Olympus and Ghost of Sparta respectively, which despite being marketed by Sony as side title, are actually crucial elements in the narrative. I won't spoil too much, but I will say there were plot elements in God of War that were almost retconned due to David Jaffe's lack of care towards the series, but thankfully were established in Ghost of Sparta. Kratos is actually a pretty sympathetic character, even at his worst in God of War III, when you understand his Spartan upbringing, lack of a father, and perpetual victimhood on behalf of the Gods constantly manipulating him and directly or indirectly putting obstacles in his path to find happiness or closure despite the loyalty that he expressed towards them in GoW 1 and Chains of Olympus. Also, Dan forgot that Zeus initially appeared to help Kratos during his raid of Rhodes in the opening to GoW II, which means even with out the necessary backstory with Zeus and Kratos's mother, Kratos still has reason to go after Zeus, even if it was "petulant" and "infantile", which, considering Ghost of Sparta and Chains of Olympus, isn't true at all.
Actually, I'm going to go ahead and disagree with the switch from third to first person. Something very important that was left out was that at the end, when you're beating the crap out of him with your fists, the sequence actually continues as long as you keep punching. I don't feel like explaining the implications of this, and why the switch makes sense, because *effort* but there you go.
Perhaps the viewpoint switch was to suggest that the player themselves revel in the violence, much like Kratos does? To bring to light, in those final moments, that the player is just as guilty of the excesses of Kratos himself? Perhaps it's to make one consider that, over the course of three games, the player (through the puppet of Kratos) has violently murdered hundreds or thousands of creatures, heroes, men, and Gods? ...Probably not, but it's something to consider.
Bronson Carder They could've capitalized on that moment, and seized the opportunity to make the player go 'whoa... deep'. But instead... it was a cutscene smash attack event... which did not capitalize on the scene... so... yeah... 'why' is askedo nce more.
Yes, absolutely, the scene could have been done better. But, I think saying that it has absolutely no redeeming value might be a bit too far. I think they tried to make a point, and that point fell a little flat, because it created a connection between the player and Kratos that had never even been alluded to at any other point in the series. But, I think part of the point is that it's a quicktime event, and not a choice or an event with more freedom to make it unfold how you want it to. By putting you in his head, and then having him carry out his actions pretty much as he would have any way, it further makes the point; this is what you've been doing, for three games now. You've been party to unthinking, unfeeling, and inevitable violence. Ultimately, imo, the major failing there, right at the end, is that they tried to do something much deeper than anything else in the game implied they would go for. They tried to have a "whoa.... deep" moment, but the moment fell flat, because there was no setup for it.
“The original post implies the person posting it thinks the games want to be taken seriously. I've only played number 3, and it seems like the creators knew how silly it was. I thought it was a hilarious game.”
I don't think this critique applies to GoW 2. Kratos was warned for how he mis-used his newfound powers, but he was just protecting the Spartan capital. Likewise, he only wanted revenge because Zeus killed him and destroyed that capital. All you needed for a greek tragedy was to look at Zeus. Zeus murders his son Kratos (actions), after prophesying that one of his sons would kill him and trying to strike first (fall from grace), and ultimately inspires the very thing he wanted to stop (regret)
Having a change to first person may symbolise the illusion of choice. Greek storytelling also has a lot to do with destiny and how futile choice really is. Kratos goes through his journey to become the symbol of violence, war and rage, becoming in effect the God of War. By having a player in first person commit the final act without choice, you could be showing what has to happen for the narrative to be complete. Even if you yourself wanted a different ending, that's not what destiny allowed. A great example of a person who was a master of this perspective switch was HP Lovecraft, but the idea of hopeless destiny has never been restricted to horror alone. EDIT: I'd add that this is just a devils advocate viewpoint. I'm fully aware of how GOW3 plays.
Kratos descended into rage and violence as a way to deal with the guilt he could never be rid of. And to be fair, Zeus was going to kill Kratos no matter what he did, due to being corrupted by the fear and paranoia released by Pandora's box. And in the end, Kratos forever freed humanity from the influence of the gods by sacrificing himself to release the hope he unknowingly took from the box. God of War started as a Greek tragedy, but wound up as a revenge & redemption tale with an almost literal cliffhanger. I'm wondering where the fourth game will go... Oh, and the prequels definitely add some more insight into the why and how of Kratos' rationale.
Uh... and who was it that released Pandora’s Box? Oh yeah Kratos, so Zeus going insane is all Kratos’ fault, also this quote from another comment: “The original post implies the person posting it thinks the games want to be taken seriously. I've only played number 3, and it seems like the creators knew how silly it was. I thought it was a hilarious game.“
i disagree with some of this. i LOVE that kratos learns nothing. why does every story need to have some redemption part at the end? why must it fallow some ancient formula? i especially love the part where (spoilers) he is holding onto the little girl, pandora, who reminds him vaguely of this daughter, stopping her from being sucked into oblivion, when zues begins to taunt kratos. kratos is so overcome with anger that he lets go of the girl in a futile attempt to lash out at zues. its a beautiful moment. in any other story kratos would have overcome his rage to save the little girl, thus showing some growth and redemption. but no. she dies. kratos is nothing but a jerk. its the way he is, and that is why he is and anything less would not feel genuine. secondly, about the first person part, i thought it very much had meaning. as a person who had played through the series, by this time you really want to get back at zues. the game has built up to it so much that when it puts you into the shoes of kratos, you eagerly pummel zues' face until he dies. nobody hesitates here to ask, why am i in first person? they go for it! greedily! the game has built up the rage for so long that no longer does kratos want to kill zues, YOU want to kill zues. i think that move by the developers was actually very satisfying, and a good way of allowing you to take a small part in what it feels like to be so overcome with bloodlust you do something which you normally wouldnt do and might later regret. it may not be a greek tragedy, but so what, god of war as a whole is one of the most compelling revenge fantasies ever.
So what you are saying is they went the Death Note route to get you so immersed in the plot, somewhere you forgot about your morals and start to become part of the character and his/her ideas
exactly mrnight. you start to feel the things that the antihero/villan does and you applaud when his evil deeds come to fruition, when normally you might be disgusted by such acts. that level of immersion is a mark of a good story, imo, even if it doesn't fallow some per-determined Greek trope. however, i do see how some people would not be able to get into the character as much as me and i see how this effect could be lost on them.
I feel this kind of thing is an issue with a lot of RPGs, not having justifiable reasoning for your actions. Sure we all like to go on killing sprees from time to time but that's never thought of as part of our/our character's story. One of the worst examples of this I can think of is detonating the Megaton bomb in Fallout 3. I feel this would have been so much better if they had worked more on Mr. Burke (the character who convinces you to do so) giving him more quests and slowly through dialogue have him attempt to convince you that the residents of Megaton are impure, their exposure to radiation means they'll likely become ghouls and as a vault dweller you are one of the few examples of pure humanity left. If there's ever a time when someone's asking you to kill someone or in this case wipe out a whole town in a world where humanity is crippled "Lol I'll pay you bro" is almost never a good enough reason.
+ben zhong But this is the problem with most RPGs. You actions really don't matter. You can go on a mindless killing spree, but then return to the main plot as if nothing's happened. You can generally express quite ambivalent behavior and it really does not matter. Sure, it's part of the fun to be able to do crazy things just for the sake of it. But, I would prefer games in which your actions truly matter. That would make your character and the world around you much more alive and interesting.
Sorry but that's a load of bullshit. How is this problem endemic in RPGs? This trait is far more common in games like GTA, Saint's Row etc none of which are RPGs. In addtition JRPGs are super linear with the story so yeah again you dont really have the ability to go on mindless killing sprees. The only time your specific problem pops up is in maybe Fallout and i dont know Fable...(and that's not really an RPG)
ben zhong The problem is with motivation not choice. I generally don't do something in fallout, or some other games, unless I can justify it by some reasoning (generally not aligned with my personal political, social or philosophical views) If the only reason being given to me in game is money that's pretty poor. Imagine if you asked the former tribesmen in Caesars Legion what they think of the legion and they said "Yeah my friends and neighbours were slaughtered raped enslaved and crucified but I'm getting paid it's fine" Money is the weakest motivation especially when doing something morally questionable definitely when doing something undeniably wrong.
That's more of a problem with you then fallout and also money is the most powerful motivation of all what are you talking about look at the Spanish with South America look at the British with India look at colonisation in general . All these horrible things done for money. Even in the case of the tribesman in Caesars legions ... yeah that totally happened the Roman Empire would often recruit people from conquered lands by offering money and lands so i dont get your point...
I've been thinking about subscribing for a while, but just now I realized I should do it. You guys really are a good channel, that deserves a new subscriber. I don't really like subscribing big channels, but you are not that big and quite worth it.
I am kinda interested about what you think about the channel now, if you even respond after 8 years. What are your thoughts on this channel as of now, as it was very different before. Was subscribing worth it to you? Are you still subscribed?
This, to date, is probably my favorite video you've done. I have always felt this way about the series, but had a very hard time putting it into words. You made it happen, so thank you.
This is a great analysis of the original GOW trilogy. I did think however there were too many split second artworks with words that I couldn't read in time and were very distracting to your narration. I would recommend not putting words with the artwork, and if you do, give each word ~2 seconds worth of screentime. Just my 2 cents..
He also tried to kill himself because he couldn't live with said nightmares. If they had relieved him of them, then he wouldn't have the revelation EC claims that he had.
I love the GoW franchise, but by the end of GoW3, I hated Kratos. He has no redeeming values other than his sheer perseverance and that he is capable of love under very specific circumstances. He's easily the bad guy of 2 and 3. The thing about hope makes perfect sense given the myth of Pandora's Box, but it only came about at the end of GoW3, far too late to really give it any importance in the narrative.
That is the freaking point of Kratos. Did you even actually understand the story or did you just think because he is the protagnoist he is supposed to be good. His tragic flaw was his own rage and inability to accept his own faults. That is why the latest two God of War are good because we get to see a side of him that was covered by his rage during the trilogy.
I know this is a year old but you got the story wrong in my mind. Kratos was at best a murder wind up doll for the Gods to punish Ares for stepping into Athena's domain. And in spite of that, he is honored in death on Olympus and when they bribed their contract killer with power, he started roughing up all the gods for denying him his choice. This sparks kill streak number two, where his will actually gets broken near late game over what he did to a spartan soldier. His drive was restored when he was coached by the Titans to aim the grief at Zeus and the third game comes along with him betrayed by the titans on top of it! By now Kratos may see this tug o war as unending unless both sides are killed off. Add onto this that the last item of the box is coveted by Athena after the Zeus kill, and you can see the gears turning... With this power, a new pantheon that may deal the same fate to others as this last one did to him is too much of a risk to take. By killing himself, this one power gets handed out to humanity, instead of the Gods, to form the world in the wake of this death. Certainly not his end game goal but something to ponder. Kratos's win is a clear Phryyic Victory.
He's still the same. People misunderstand most about maturity, that they think it means content like violence sex or drugs. That is not what maturity means. Maturity deals with HOW that content is presented. Thank you so much for this message. I only hope some can understand it especially if games are to be in fact seen as an art medium.
kratos never feels remorse for killing the gods, he feels depression and anger that he is powerless to bring back his family, and none of the gods will help him, he never regretted killing ares, thats not why he jumped, he jumped because athena and zues deny him his reward of forgiveness of killig his family/making things back to how they should have been, after he finds out how uncaring and crummy the gods attitudes are he goes on a revenge streak, theres nothing wrong with him killing the gods, he saved human kind by de-establishing the arogant theology and giving humankind hope and power over their own lives, that is pure win for kratos, he took everything away from those who thought they could keep abusing human kind at their whims
but he didn't really save humanity in the end. because of his actions the world was in complete disarray only leaving the remnants of humanity the last vestiges of hope and having them to rebuild all that he destroyed both directly and indirectly. and in his wake left many innocent dead and the rest to scrounge for a way to survive in the chaos he created.
in god of war 1 he jumped not because of anger its because after all the killing, all the running and ALL THE FUCKING KILLING AGAIN, he got nothing no hope no reward just him his memories of sins, that my friends is guilt and impotence
Well in the God of War Universe, the gods basically control everything in the world, so when Kratos kills a god, the difference in the world is shown. When he kills Poseidon the sea is turned into one gigantic clusterfuck. When Helios dies the weather turns permanently cloudy. Each god had a role in that world, and one by one Kratos destroys it. Then again I've heard people make arguments that by killing himself, Kratos restores hope to humanity.
And let's not forget the events of Ghost of Sparta, which serve to only fuel the fire of his rage against the gods. (Basically, what happened to his mother and his brother)
Chase Langlands Don't forget Chains of Olympus, where he had to forever give up an afterlife in Elysium with his daughter so he could save the world from crazy bitch-queen Persephone.
Bear with me here: Imagine if the final battle were to be Kratos fighting Zeus, all the while Zeus gives exposition into Kratos' misdeeds, mistakes, and former revelations; the battle continues, periodically Zeus keeps giving the exposition during breaks in the fight; making more sense, Kratos starts to give in to the guilt, the urge to fight starts to slowly leave him, so much so that he barely has the drive to use the blades, and they go limp; a little more dialogue, and Kratos begs for some type of forgiveness, having finally comprehended what he has done to everyone in his blind rage; Zeus feeling pity for this husk of a man gives him some sort of a choice, maybe Zeus can bring his family back from Hades or something redeeming in exchange for Kratos receiving a severe punishment (i.e. Prometheus' punishment), maybe being able to see them forever in his torture, or he can be sent to the underworld and maybe rule the underworld. The choice being saving his family in exchange for eternal damnation and pain, or he takes power, but the souls of those closest to him are completely obliterated and he will never truly be complete. I can see it all play out.
No commentary on how Cratos pretty much destroys the world through his actions in the 3rd game, but we're still meant to think of his as a good guy because he gave the humans "hope"? Hey, Cratos, you know what would've been better than Hope? You not flooding the world, blocking out the sun and killing all plant life on Earth. I don't see how us being optimistic makes up for that.
I think this is a clear-cut case of sequelitis. The first game had a clear, well developed character arc. It was complete. It was final. The vision was realized. This made it an instant hit. As a result, greedy executives with no vision beyond "MOAR MONEY!" demanded a sequel, and then another, with no understanding at all of what made the first game good. The problem is that the people running the show are not artists. They aren't even smart. They're just rich.
TheSmackerlacker To be fair in GoW 1 there was a symbol on the floor of a man fighting Zeus. I think there was always an idea to leave it open for others.
TheSmackerlacker You can make a case for the genre as a whole. The gameplay is deep if you crank up the difficulty a bit. it's not Dynasty Warriors repetitive, but some combos are pretty overused
Going back to this video, I have to say the art and caption selection is absolutely wonderful. This is probably my favourite EC in terms of visual companionship to the verbal content.
You guys completely forgot to talk about GoW1's ending, which essentially ruined the whole Greek tragedy aspect by rewarding Kratos with godhood. In fact it comes out of left field so hard I think it was the producers wanting a happier ending, not the director.
*spoilers inbound* I think you forget the part where within 15 minutes of playing GOW2 you lose that godhood. As a whole, Kratos life still REALLY sucks. Even when he takes down Zeus he never truly wins *spoilers over*.
Actually, it is part of the tragedy. In mythology, a hero who dies (even through suicide) may enter the fields of Elysium and find eternal rest there. On the way, he may drink from Lethe, the river of forgetfulness and free himself of all shackles. When Athena forgives him (which she explicitly does) Kratos would have been allowed entrance to Elysium, since he became a Heros. But by making him an immortal, he is denied forgetfulness and will forever remember the horror of his mortal life. That is the height of his punishment.
***** This comment pretty much encapsulates what the ending of the first game was supposed to mean. The only problem I found with the ending was its presentation. It really should have emphasized the tragic irony of Kratos's fate - that, as he can't get away from his violent nature - the one thing that caused him pain the entirety of GoW's narrative - he would be doomed as the cause of violence and destruction. It's really weird looking back on it though, because the actual mood of the scene I felt didn't match with what the story was trying to say. Maybe it was a misunderstanding between the development team, but it was really weird.
One way that you could look at the first person event is that it symbolizes the loss of control rage causes. But it's not what they were going for and if it was it could have been done better by using it earlier where choices were available.
The redeeming part about that sudden shift to first person is that if you keep hitting Zeus, the game doesn't end. That entire previous section is about Kratos letting go of his rage and then they shove you inside Kratos and test to see if you were paying attention.
I think it is important to understand that some people do not change. Kratos was never the hero of our story. He is a terrible person with very few redeeming qualities. Whenever we see an opportunity for him to change, he'll fuck it over. He truly is terrible, and whatever we might sympathize with him for, we'll still ultimately know that he's the villain. But what I truly like about God of War as a whole, is that you are the villain. You may not realize it, but you are. And you'll justify not being a villain through whatever means necessary, just like Kratos.
But what if this time he does redeem himself in the new series? What if he actually tries to grow, to try to make sure his son doesn't follow in his footsteps, to perhaps learn to be better than he was? Redemption is a long and hard road paved with many obstacles and reminders of our failings, and the new game demonstrates that more so than any of the original games.
Every time you guys blow me away with the amount of insight you put into game development. Keep it up! Also, this video made me happy I only played the first game 😊
I wonder what it'd be like for Extra Credits to make a retrospective and explore how God of War 2018 evolved from this early direction to create one of the most meaningful game stories ever.
I used to be on the same page as Daniel here. I am Greek so this goes double for me. I was raised into believing that the Greek Pantheon was benevolent until I red some stuff about how many kids Zeus had or about the way the greek gods punished Arachne, Adonis, Hercules, Ulesseus and tons of others. They were portrayed as teenagers abusing their power. Which was fine for ancient times. I didn't exactly agree with the portrayal of gods in GOW II forward and the things I was forced to do in III were not my cup of tea. What kind of guy keeps going even when he sees that his actions destroy the world ? And then I red an article on Kotaku which shed new light on the subject. Kratos in GOW II and III is no longer a man in the strictest sense of the world. David Jaffe used to say that he would have him become the embodiment of death if he worked on the sequel. And that's what happens here but in a way that is . . . well, relatable. Kratos is a soldier. Much like Brando in Apocalypse now or D'Onofrio in FMJ, war has and will leave him scarred, regardless of how much baggage is behind him or what he has witnessed. There will not be a 'I have seen everything' when it comes to war. You don't just stop doing what you were accustomed to doing because you have reached the peak of the mountain, ergo, killing a god. It is not how war works and it is not how post traumatic stress disorder works. Kratos is suffering from PTSD through the entirety of GOW II and III. I have met people like this, they are not in touch with the world around them. Their perception of reality is distorted and they follow a course of action that seems logical only to them. Same things would be heard in VA or AA meeting, me thinks. Kratos has killed his way forward for most of his adult life, being a Spartan general and all. His violent life coming to a halt is not something he can come to grips with. The last time he tried it, the gods denied him the satisfaction and made him a god. Dan is right, Kratos has no redeeming value. But that doesn't stop him from being an interesting character throughout the trilogy and not a caricature. This is not a character like Asura, who is angry for the sake of being angry. This is a man whose inner peace has repeatedly been denied. He is a bit like Anton from No Country For Old Men, he is the way he is because he sees no other path he can follow. And whatever other path there was, is now gone. He is a bad guy and not many games give you the opportunity to play as one. His actions are not always justified, much less logical but these are the notions that someone who doesn't see another course of action goes through. What is a gigantic plothole is not the fact that Kratos killed 90% of the Greek pantheon. It's why, when presented with a time machine, he chose to bring Gaia and the Titans to his own time instead of trying to save his family. That's something I never understood.
+Katsas Georgios Do the Greeks still believe in the Pantheon? Is it still practiced as a religion? I don't mean to offend by the way, I'm legitimately curious, being American myself.
+Pie Pierrot (Eta) Well, some do. It is an extremely short percentage of the population though. Ever since the Byzantium came through here, our religion has shifted to Christianity. The Orthodox kind.
Thank you for saying those things about standards and about competence vs. brilliance. That is how I feel sometimes, but I haven't been able to put it into words.
Comparing this video to the one about innovation: In the innovation video you mentioned that the indie developers should sign over all rights to their idea to the AAA supporting them. But wouldn't that create the exact problem you are describing here? That someone lacking the original developers vision takes over? I am no expert on games by ANY means, so I may be completely wrong. I like this channel a lot, and I learn a lot from it but that innovation video always made me just think "What? No! That can't be the solution. Lean and hungry? Signed over rights? That sounds like a nightmare." Far far to easy for the people who already have power to abuse the ones who already have little power. I have seen a lot of people voice these concerns in the comments, and while I am no expert, some of these people seam to know what they are talking about. I am not asking you to retreat your entire statement, but maybe... answer a few of the comments or make a video explaining what you meant? OK far too long message. Leaving now. Bye.
Honestly, why is it that bad for a character to NOT learn something? For a player to not "learn" something. The ending of God of War 3 made some bad stylistic choices, sure, but I don't think it's necessarily bad to have something like a monologue about forgiveness and hope, disregarded by a character who has steeped himself in violence and brutality. Honestly, it's an archaic way of looking at things, that a character has to be a better person, or has to grow or learn something at the end, for it to be a good story. Fuck that. I'm not saying character growth isn't good, but why does it have to be positive? That just feels like trying to dictate writing, which is always going to be perceived in different ways by different people.
After playing and reading reviews of the 2018 God of War, it kinda feels like Cory Barlog watched this video and was inspired to address this exact problem
I love your channel, which I discovered a few days ago, but on this occasion you missed the most important part of the narration of a Greek Tragedy: fatality. Whether it is Oedipus or Orestes, the fate of the main character of a Greek tragedy is certain and inevitable; he may try his hardest to avoid it, but his efforts will only hasten his doom. Also, since the Renaissance we tend to only see a scenario in a Greek Tragedy, whereas in Ancient Greece it was a collective experience with deeper meaning and purpose: catharsis (the purge of one's pulsions), as well as a "trip" (yes, that kind of trip ^^) guided by the Chorus, which is always the most important character of a tragedy. To learn more about the true meanings of the Greek Tragedy, I highly recommend reading "The Birth of Tragedy": Nietzsche's first opus. Thanks a lot for the awesome videos!
If the GoW 1 Kratos sees the other Kratos's from 2, 3 and Ascension he would feel ashamed... and smash them instantly. I didn't like Kratos enough but I feel I want to replay God of War 1 after this great video.
Coming at you from the distant year of 2018, if love to see you come back to this now that there's a new, vastly different God of War game. I'd love to see your take on the new direction the series takes
I disagree with this video. Not all characters in entertainment media have to have a "redeeming" quality to be part of a good story. Sometimes a great story is meant to just be told, not to be associated with. We can just enjoy a story without putting ourselves in that story.
Let's be real here, the series turned into a cash cow: it went from Greek tragedy to Greed tragedy. You can 'disagree', but you can't stop facts from being facts.
BrEnNo1023 Actually I don't disagree with that part. 99% of game franchise are cash cows. They are made to produce profit and God Of War is no exception. I disagreed with the video due to the posters exclaiming that because Kratos has no redeeming qualities by the end of his journey, his story is bad. I might be paraphrasing that a bit but that's the take away that I took from this video.
Rain - Man I feel, personally, that the unique nature of video game storytelling makes it pretty much mandatory for the player to have some form of empathy with the character in order for them to get anything out of the story. I empathized with Raz in Psychonauts, with Alucard in Castlevania: Symphony of the Night, with Cloud and Yuna in Final Fantasy VII and X (respectively), and even with the Hero of Bowerstone in Fable II despite being basically a self-insert for the player. But Kratos? I couldn't stand him. By the end of the first post-boss fight cutscene in the first God of War, I WANTED him to die. I WANTED his quest to end in failure because he was a remorseless, bloodthirsty, unforgivable dick. That was when I put down the controller and stopped playing. Good gameplay, for me, can't save a game if it has a horrible story (I'd rather have no story at all if that's the case), and an unlikable main character will kill a story for me.
But the story of God of War was intended to be a tragedy, you were intended to sympathize with Kratos. Something that the third game fails at miserably
“The original post implies the person posting it thinks the games want to be taken seriously. I've only played number 3, and it seems like the creators knew how silly it was. I thought it was a hilarious game.”
BREAKING BAD SPOILERS:You could probably view it as one. The total and utter destruction of one from a fairly powerful position. Yeah, Walter is pretty much annihilated.
Tristan Phillips i'm not the one who made the original comment but if you can, please do. I get Greek tragedy now but what is modern tragedy? How does breaking bad fit into that?
Well, it's harder for me to explain modern tragedy, i'm far more akin to Greek. But, modern falls under our hero starting with nothing, often gaining nothing, losing everything, and stuff along those lines. If it was Greek tragedy he would've started strong or healthy, but BB had the main character ill and poor, and he had to rise up, and inevitably fall down. The real breaking point is the end. (SPOILERS) He gets revenge and saves his sidekick, while in Greek tragedy he would've either left forever, or died. He does still die, but all that heroism at the end is typical to Greek, more modern, a happy-ish ending.
Playing as a character that the player does not always identify with is an artistic choice. It forces the player to explore actions they aren't comfortable with. Sometimes that provides introspection into their unidentified traits. Sometimes the player may be unsettled by what they are made to do, and that is an emotional reaction that other mediums cannot provide. Bravo, GoW III, you've done well.
I like all the videos I've seen so far but I feel that the analysis of this series is a bit narrow. Okay so looking at how the third game talks about hope through pandora makes sense considering that the myth actually mentions that Pandora's box held all the evils of the world but also housed hope. I'm sure I don't have to go into lengthy details about the plot but the third game does go full circle as far that theme goes. In the first game the Kratos is Hopeful that he can find redemption but once he finds it he is realizes that what he really wanted, freedom from the guilt of murdering his family, was not what the gods were offering. This is what turns him into a man seeking vengeance after he is betrayed by Zeus. Look at why Zeus betrays him. Is Kratos really that bad I'm comparison to Aries? Well there is no context so fuck it haha. But Kratos was doing what the God of war should probably do: death and destruction to his enemies. He still has remorse for people who had never betrayed him like the Spartan Captain whom he killed out of self defense, but every instance like that strengthens his resolve to murder the god Zeus. And Zeus is the only god he intended to kill. All the other gods got in his way and since "the gods can't be trusted" he just takes them out of the equation. But I've digressed too much. The first game is about redemption but living with the mistakes you've made, the second game is vengeance for broken trust and promises, and the third installment is hope and letting go. If my last statement towards the last game doesn't make sense just think back to the final QuickTime event where Zeus gets his face pummeled. It only ends after you stop punching his face. I seriously spent 20 minutes doing it and only stopped out of frustration and confusion when my screen was just a red glow, but when I stopped the game moved forward. So I agree with some points in the video but I feel that this analysis is kind of shallow and a bit narrow. They also never mentioned how David Jaffe actually wanted Kratos to kill all the gods and then become the personification of death before witnessing the birth of Jesus as a sing of…wait for it…hope haha. Seriously just look at the interviews with the game directors.
I sincerely hope you guys have a video in the works about this in response to the new God of War's take on norse mythology - not just the extra mythology series, but a breakdown of the new *character* of Kratos... because in that game, he is very much a different man than the one we see at the end of GoW3. This Kratos has learned from his mistakes. This Kratos understands that he deserves to suffer for the things he's done, and that the only justified killing is in self defense. He understands that there is no satisfaction at the end of a path of vengeance. But most importantly, this Kratos is capable of wisdom and compassion - not instead of his seething rage, but ALONGSIDE it. He has become a more complete character - not by abandoning his flaws, but by learning to live with them and mitigate and control them. I VERY much want to hear what James and the rest of the EC crew have to say about this
I think that the switch to first person is one of the better things with the ending. There is no end to the time you can punch Zeus, you can continue to beat him over and over and over and the game won’t progress until you stop.
well... the reason the story is so bad is simply because they did not need a story. they just wanted money so they kicked out the expensive director and just made a money machine. I guess the extra credits team already know this but now you know as well :D
The editting, pictures, drawings, and humor decisions in this specific episode were remarkably awesome. The topics always interest me and teach me a lot, and it's usually very entertaining as well, but this one was far better on that specific area compared to the other episodes I've watched! At least in my opinion.
TheFableGamer just because they use a console doesn't mean they're a peasant look at me and my family, WE'VE PROBABLY HAD EVERY FRIGGIN' CONSOLE THERE IS and we've all got computers
Still one of my favorite videos in your series because it is one of the best you ever made. I've fallen behind on Extra Credits, so I'm starting from the beginning to get caught up, but I hope you did a movie giving your opinion if God of War IV redeemed itself
I don't mind remorseless killing, but Kratos should have shown some regret at FIRST, building up to the endless murder. Or, alternatively, have Kratos slaughter the gods, look at what he's done, and at least do something that reminds us he's human, and maybe realizes he's butt fucked the world.
I've never really watched your stuff... but I am really glad that you have a view that games need to try to keep progressing and getting better... in all ways. I know far too many people that think it is wrong of me to believe that games should be advancing. I actually feel that.. in most aspects, AAA game titles are moving backwards. Even in the most basic elements of game play.... Look at something like Starsiege:Tribes and Tribes 2.. and then look at... Tribes Vengeance, Tribes: Ascend, Halo (all of them), and any other sci-fi shooter.
The first God of War is the only game that is really worthy to play in the franchise anyway. There are way better Hack n' Slash series out there such as Devil May Cry, Ninja Gaiden and Bayonetta yet this one is the most popular. This game also sets up for dumbing down hack n' slash games and making people seems to think that every Hack n' Slash game is a rip off of this.
Then you play newest God of War. They curbed the spectacle creep a bit. They added on tragic backstory. They made him start over and try to have a peacefull life. Then he was forced to fight demons of his past that caught up with him while trying to prevent the same fate for his 2nd child. I was glued to the screen.
Did you guys even play the original God of War to completion? Kratos was in no way remorseful for killing Ares. He was all too happy to do it. He attempted suicide because even doing what the gods (mostly Athena) asked, he was still abandoned to suffer. His suffering was the fact that he was tricked into killing his family, and the guilt-driven memory of that drove him mad. He thought he was promised that in exchange for killing Ares, his visions of his past would be removed. They were not. Therefore, he lost all hope and attempted to end his life. That said, I have to mostly agree with you about God of War III's ending. While I actually appreciated the developers trying to use Pandora's hope line as a message for Kratos to accept, the rest of the ending was completely weak and poorly done. For all that talk about hope, Kratos doesn't have any at the end, despite being full of it earlier. In the end, he still kills himself by falling from the cliff. To be honest, the ending in its entirety was poorly done, except for diving into Kratos' psyche and him remembering Pandora's message as the only thing he could still cling to. This is coming from someone who very recently finished God of War III but has little love for the series. I think you guys should try to pay more attention to game narrative because it seems like a lot of things you state were wrong or utterly missing, I felt were delivered fairly well. I also think you fail to understand basic characterisations and story plots given. There were many story- or world-enhancing elements I've noticed in some games that it seems you didn't catch for one reason or another. I mean absolutely no insult with this. I'm sure there are things you notice about the same games that I miss. I just think there were enough clues and statements given, and I feel as if you guys overlooked those. Again, that said, you guys were spot on with some things like the ending of III being poorly done. As someone who fancies myself as a storycrafter, I understand what they were trying to achieve, but I think they could have tried harder. Still friends?
there is one moment that redeems kratos in the forth game (releaced years after this video) more than any other moment could. he quotes zeus, saying "the cycle ends here" to a young, powerful rage-ball bent on petraside. who he then stops.
6:15 "Are we asking too much of a video game here?" Well of course we are. Games like Skyrim are proof that depth is a little too much for a video game and that we should just be glad for what we have. What? Oh silly, no one remembers Lufia or Xenogears or even Kingdom Hearts, we just need to sell this sh!t and get on with our lives.
What's wrong with Skyrim? Granted, it's not as story-driven as a JRPG, but none of the Elder Scrolls series have been. The point of an open-world game is very different than the point of a linear, story-driven game, it's like apples and origins. I love Final Fantasy 6, 7, and 10. I love Kingdom Hearts 1 and 2. I love Psychonauts, Journey, and Lost Odyssey. I love (the first two) Batman: Arkham games. Games that deliver deep narrative experiences are awesome. But I also loved Oblivion and Fable II. I love Scribblenauts, and I love Skyrim, Kingdoms of Amalur, and Sims 3. Games that let you explore the world and decide where the story goes, or what choices you make, are a unique feature that only video games can deliver. Ever since the very first Legend of Zelda, or even earlier, the joy of exploration has given that brand of game a unique pull that you could only get before by reading about a dozen D&D rulebooks. I look forward to the day where narrative and storytelling in games embraces its uniqueness fully and innovates, rather than simply mimicking the cinematic experience. But does that mean I don't want good, deep stories? of course not.
Curt Clark Sorry, Skyrim's kinda boring. If you want to, you can look up GamingBrit's video called An Overrated Epic (We Should've Acted) I think. It's pretty funny and more or less describes exactly what I think about the game.
D MAS I watched it, and he makes some good points. The same way Extra Credits did with the Skyrim opening. I still love the game, though. A lot of his complaints are subjective, about the setting, combat style, etc. And I disagreed.
D MAS Yeah its on my desktop.. i.. occasionally open it when im downloading something and can't play any games that require me to extensively use internet... but every time I do it makes me feel sick with its mediocrity and lack of choice, storytelling, or really even the core feature of elder scrolls games.. discovery. You always knew what to expect, and half the places in the game looked exactly the fucking same. Skyrim was bad, and ESO sure as hell didn't make up for it. Bethesda has some serious apologizing to do with the next Elder Scrolls Game
This franchise is THE exemple to be followed in the future, the form they did to improve the story without denying it's fails, but instead using then in the narrative as a important aspect of Kratos personality is just fantastic. Not just because it is good, but also because it brings to light a way to turn bad writing into good plot and characters for a sequel game, I don't remenber any other good exemple of this in games before.
I disagree, here's why. The game was about Kratos freeing humanity from an oppressive arrogant pantheon of gods. He cares for Pandora and he goes from the first games redemption to blind hate to liberator of men. He lived in a time where the gods were everything and he felt they abandoned him in his most dire moments. After that he realises what the gods are (overpowerd people) and that they are nothing special. He goes on a quest to free humanity and bring hope to the land. The end of the third game is not a destroyed world. It is a world without gods, and a world where human beings can shape their own lives. If you look you can see the souls of the people flying around and that shows that they are no longer bound by the gods..... I'm rambling now and I think I've more or less explained my thoughts.
I kinda think its a way of showing even through remorese, people change, and not always for the better. They can even use the paving stones of enlightenment into the road back to regression into what their true, primal form is. Not sure if that was going for or not, but it definatly makes sense.
The premise of this video is wrong in its execution. Name a painter of skill, then someone that isn't skillfull at painting. Compare a painting from both people. Just because one lacks skill doesn't mean is bad, doesn't have value, or is devoid of meaning. Both are art. Both have value even if one is less skillful than the other. Saying GoW3 has no redeeming value is snobbery. If it had no value, the game wouldn't exist, and in fact wouldn't cause EC to create a 8.5 minute video about it. It surely wouldn't have had a remastered release in '15 or an at least 80% positive review rating overall. What is has is different values from the first game in the series. And indeed different values from the video creators themselves. Just as much that some people enjoy the first game more than the third, many enjoyed the third more than the first and equally some enjoyed all three equally, but in different ways. Much like the game series story arch itself, the video also leaves its own premise from the start and becomes a rather soapbox style critique on how the 3rd installment is a bad game. This was, by description, a discussion of the triumph and failing of storytelling. But by criticizing Kratos for acting like a flawed man-child and claiming the game itself has no value or the developers are wrong because of the character's actions is incorrect. Storytelling is not the plot. Storytelling is the mechanism of how the plot is delivered to the player. Maybe Kratos is just a flawed man-child that takes no responsibility in his own actions and responds to everything with violence. Does that make the game bad? Does that make the designers wrong? No. It makes Kratos an immature prick, and the game a realistic lens of that character. Make sure that the topic is correctly in focus when creating such things. A video on storytelling should only be how the game tells the story, not the subject matter in the plot itself or how it went afield of how you think the story should have gone. That leads to head-canon and fanfiction and a different series of videos entirely.
There is nothing that could make me agree with this post more. BRAVO! A lot of people forget that a good story doesn't have to be an enjoyable story. Similarly, a lot of people forget that for a main Character to be a good Character, they don't have to be an enjoyable Character, or even fall on the good end of the moral spectrum. The notion that for a Video Game Protagonist to be good in that role, they have to have "redeeming qualities" is far too constrictive. Seriously, people should look up "Villain Protagonist" -- it's a thing, it exists, and reading what it entails is bound to be very interesting to a lot of people.
David C you wasted so much time But I disagree with your art statement some art is just bad either because of skill or a lack of creativity from the artist, art like storytelling can be objectively bad
Ok. 2 problems here. 1. You forgot about the PSP title Ghost of Sparta, which actually gives reasons for his actions in the events of God of War 2 and 3. To give a bit of brief context, Kratos goes look for his long lost brother, who he thought died and feels guilty for not protecting him. By the time he is reunited with his brother, Thanos, the god of death, kills the brother and the gods do nothing to help him. In fact, they were behind the kidnapping and imprsionment of his brother and now that they see that the last of his family member is now dead, he can continue to focus on being a God. Which angers him even more. 2. While, yes 3 isn’t the greatest game ever, I would consider that the 2018 reboot/remake/reimagining will actually develop him even more. Going from a Greek tragedy to a Norse tale of wisdom and truth. What I’m trying to say is, these guys are claiming that the fact that Kratos’ actions in the sequels have no significance when they actually do (and yet they claim to be professional gamers?). And saying that Kratos becomes a mindless killer that will never be redeem is a little far fetched considering that the next game in 2018 will make him redeemable now that he has a new family (or at least, his son for now). I think the new game shows that Kratos is trying to be redeemed.
Can you guys please revisit this video? Some of the comment responses on here are brilliant, and I personally think you guys did a pretty haphazard job by dismissing the first person view at the end because you were trying to fit your own narrative.
I actually enjoyed the scenes between Kratos and Pandora because you can tell her positivity in the face of hardships does grate on Kratos yet he can't bring himself to harm her; be it because of this attitude or that she reminds him of his dead daughter.
While I do agree, slightly, in regards to the GoW III there is still one preceding and rather massive plot hole that occurs at the end of the second game. Kratos gains the use of a gate that can take him back in time. To any when he wants. And he doesn't go back in time, deck himself in the head, and save his family. WHY!?
When you talked about changing perspectives, I immediately thought of Alleigent, or however it's spelled. As soon Roth switched to Four's narration, I just knew we were in for a character killing fiasco of a third book.
Didn't one of the leader-position people of god of war say that story was the least important part of a game? Might have been the director of 2 and 3. Would explain a lot.
and the complaint is that, we are pretty sure Kratos is the killer. Since the linear gameplay did not allow us to do anything but what Kratos wanted to do. Randomly putting us into first person is definitely just a game gimmick because you can't just shove us in that situation and try to make us all accomplices cuz we're not. We never had a choice but to do the damn quick time events ;) cuz i sure as hell didn't want to slaughter some of those gods, but... Kratos!
But if we were killer then who was phone?? No but seriously, you can't just throw in a twist at the end without building up to it. Unless it changes your interpretation of past events, it's just nonsense.
the8u9 No, you are. The only way to win is to set the controller down. Why does Spec Ops: The Line get praised for the same device, but GoW3 is irredeemable for it? Oh, right, because Kotaku doesn't like it.
"Are we asking too much of a video game here? No. We aren't. And we should never ask that question again." -6:15
Excellent.
Joseph Engelhardt Well that was a breath of fresh air in an industry of idiocy
Miguel Pereira in*
Except that's what Kratos was already doing throughout the entirety of the series before that moment.
1.1k likes btw
Too bad it's become "toxic fans" these days. =sigh= It's sad.
Let's all laugh at an industry that never learns anything, tee hee hee.
"Kratos destroyed the world and threw himself upon the cruel tides he created..."
"...Then he went to Norway, grew a beard, and had a son."
Seems resonable. I would probably do the same if i were in his position.
Kinda like [endgame spoilers]
Thanos lol
The tragedy isnt about Kratos.
The tragedy is about the trilogy itself.
A greek epic, descending into madness and pointlessless by its story's end.
This, right here. The Greek tragedy was actually about the Meta of the game itself. Brilliant, Nobody, Just Brilliant.
well that's a huge mindfuck
Nobody is geniius
...MY MIND!!!
+Nobody you literally just mindfucked me....
I'm curious what their perspective is now that 4 has come out
Probably the same. These guys were up their own asses in certainty about being right. That they were right fairly often made it a lot harder for them to see any sense when they weren't.
@@MarkoArillius they did get to that point eventually though it's been a few years and none of this team are even doing the channel anymore
@@MarkoArillius I mean this video can totally still stand even if the new GoW franchise is perfect in every way. They aren't saying it's a bad story, they're just saying that II and III lacked the same artistic vision/deeper meaning to the story.
What makes Kratos unlikeable, isn't that he kills gods, it's that he kills those who help him, for instance there was one in the 3rd game who makes you a new weapon, and then you kill him for no reason.
In the first one there is a bridge you need to cross and a man won't lower it for you, so you kill him and use him to lower it (I forget how). And it that case you don't feel that you have done anything wrong. In 3 there is a slave girl who you shove under a lever so you can advance, and she gets crushed, even though she had done nothing wrong.
CornishCreamtea07 he did thank several spartans who helped him in ghost of sparta.
I love Kratos because of those things
But, then again, aren't all Spartans trained to be that way?
+Chase Langlands
Well, no. Spartan training revolved around building military strength (particularly military formations), not just being a dick to everyone in general.
In real life, there was more sharing a common lifestyle and practicing discipline (like how a real-life military works) than "throwing children to wolves and the most bloodthirsty one that survives becomes king".
Well, this isn't real life is it? Suspension of disbelief is required here.
Having no experience regarding this game other than what you said in this video, it seems that the message of the series shows the descent of a human being into a pure elemental force of war. The fall of a complex being with remorse and tragedy and things into the type of flat character that any immutable god creature inevitably is. It is the stripping away of complexity and humanity until the main character has ceased to be anything but a clean avatar of destruction.
The player loses choice because the character also loses it. I think it switches to first person to show that Kratos ceases to be human, and has become a fully realized, flat, undynamic, unfree, elemental expression of war, free to be inhabited and expressed by and through anyone, including the player.
+Jens Boettiger I thought about something similar. What if the change to first person in the end of the game symbolizes how violent and meaningless you are (instead of just the character)? That all the bad that has happened in the game happens because you choose it, you choose to play it killing a lot of people.
It may be message from the creators of the game, something like "Our complex character became a meaningless killer because you players were controlling it, you wanted every new game more violent and with less story, so we needed to do it, then the burden of destroying this character is on you, you're the controller of Kratos"
+Matheus Oliveira da Silva And yet that stupid because they didn't give us a choice. GoW is a linear game, it's not you can win by killing or through peaceful means. it's go here kill things. Doing something like that after two mindles linear slaughterfest games comes out as pretentious and not as smart. I didn't do it, KRATOS did and why didn't I do it? Because the game never BOTHERED to ask me if I WANTED not to brutaly kill this guy.
+Darth Fall well, one could always shut down the Game xD
***** Yes, that is true. BUt that is true for every game.
Darth Fall
Yeah. I was just fooling around and play the "There's always a choice" Card.
Just recently introduced to you guys so apologies for the very out of date comment.
For many of the reasons you outline, I really enjoyed the original God of War before the sequels became parodies of themselves. However, I disagree on your stance about the end of GOW3. Yes, Kratos comes back and puts you in first person to pummel Zeus w/ a QTE. But the fact that the punching continues indefinitely until the player stops following the button prompt stands out to me as it made me question my own actions. Before I knew that you could just stop once the screen went red, I kept punching for far longer than I needed to to resolve the story because I thought the prolonged brutality made sense for Kratos' rage toward Zeus. Eventually I thought it had gone on too long and that maybe my game had glitched so I stopped and the sequence ended. Why was I so ready and willing to continue mashing the button to beat the guy? Was I just doing what I thought Kratos would do (highlighted by the first-person element)? Was I, the player, taking out my frustration on the game and that final boss battle? Or was I just a automaton, responding to the button prompt as I had been conditioned to by that game and many others? It led to the most time I spent pondering the point of anything God of War related so for all the game's/series' fault, I at least credit it with how that final moment made me feel.
Anyway, great series! I look forward to catching up to present-day videos and responding in a more timely fashion.
+snarkystarkey That's interesting! I've never played the game, but I like your counter there.
okay
+snarkystarkey Please tell me what you thought of the rest of the end sequence. You know the part AFTER the pummeling.
one of the most mature comments section I ever seen
Which one?
Rkader GT
This is a cultural treasure.
This is why I like extra credits' community
Yes such a breath of fresh air
I think that God Of War 3's ending firstperson qte was going for "This is what you did this entire game, how do you feel" and failed
Like a movie with a badly executed great plot
like the "let's make sure we're on the same page" drawing... epic
Actually the final moments of GoW3 were kind of clever in that they never said when to stop pressing circle and we all just kept mashing the button faster than in Metal Gear Solid. Guess it represents the audience truly embracing the violence as much as Kratos did.
Yeah, but it still don't really justify the whole hope and forgiveness dialogue from earlier. At most, it's giving you a choice between killing sues with your bare fists, or killing sues with your bare fists and beating up his corpse. Imagine if they allowed you to walk away in that last moment, when you went from third to first person. Not make it obvious, but maybe have a prompt by Zeus for punching, but still allow you to walk around.
+Shayne McConnell I now realize my phone autocorrected Zeus to sues.
I let it all out during that sequences, the rage that Kratos displayed throughout the trilogy got to me and had me mashing that button for a while.
999 nails the "switch from first person to third person" completely.
I'm a little late but I just beat God of War 3 remastered and I think the point of the finale of the fight is when you're prompted to mash the circle button even after the entire screen goes red with blood, the prompt never goes and you have to decide on your own to stop hitting Zeus, and that might be why the perspective shifts to first person, to convey Kratos deciding to end his vengeance.
Is the entire series of God of War a greek tragedy? In the meaning that the series itself is a greek tragedy, not in the story, but in the series. The three points are:
1: Someone of high status brought low: Check. It got each time slightly lower scores by the public and the press. It got worse.
2: The actions don't have to be bad or evil. Characters are judged by their actions: Check. It's not that the third game is bad. It's just that they didn't do some things.
3: Tragedy:Check. They found out that it stopped getting the public attention it previously had and decided to kill the series. The last game that was not a remaster was from 2013. And there's no other game anounced.
So, God of war is a greek tragedy on itself.
+carlosbaldellou Never has the realization moment.
you are a genius.
It also has the inane amounts of perversion and a "hero' who is an immoral scumbag.
Thoughts now?
Don't speak so soon.
I disagree with the steady descent into ultra violence not having a point.
At the beginning/end of the first game, Kratos tries to kill himself. He's hit rock bottom and just wants to end it all, after being saved we see him sitting on his throne and that it doesn't make him happy. He doesn't have his family, his wife and daughter will never return to him, of course he's going to just become more and more violent and arguably irritable and irrational, he has nothing to lose and violence is all he knows.
In God of War 1 when he was a Captain his violence brought him prestige, when he killed his family and believed he could get them back through more violence he probably felt good again while he was killing. He probably thought, with every enemy I slay, with every swing, I get closer having my family again. He's been trained his whole life to believe that violence will bring him happiness, why wouldn't he get more and more violent?
Nevir202 I often repeat the same process on computers, and get different results.
Ruslan Victorenko umm then you'r not repeating the same exact thing. There's some sort of disturbance because computers always do the same thing every time.
No, they don't. Software works in mysterious ways, as do hardware. And yes, there is a disturbance; interference due to code.
Let's take a simple one. Trying to reboot your computer, and Windows doesn't get to login screen. You reboot again, and does. Same action, different results. Either the saying is wrong, or indeed the world is insane, as same actions produce different results in various aspects.
Ruslan Victorenko In other words, minor glitches (noticed and left in or not noticed) adds an element of unpredictability?
MiningwithPudding All things carry an element of uncertainty of success or failure, which is why it is more insanity expecting same results upon same action. Computers more so than anything else, flawed perfectionists as they are.
Would be interesting to hear the EC Crew's thoughts on this on whether the latest addition to the series makes up for this :P
This was a perfect analysis of the story. I was so disappointed that there even was a sequel to be honest. The first game was a self-contained story, and was completely fine as a standalone game. Only the realization that brand ID = $ made a sequel necessary. They could have even had a sequel in which the player could control a different character. The ancient Greek gods were spiteful and jealous. Giving the player control over a god would have allowed for the blood-soaked irredeemability without destroying the narrative. Zeus was an asshole...so were Poseidon and Hades. Athena was so jealous of Arachne's knitting skills that she turned her into a spider. None of the Greek gods were purely good...they were way too human for that.
+HaydenX What about Prometheus?
+Doctor Nefarious He was a Titan; One of the few whom sided with the Gods in the Great War for Olympus. He was tasked with creating humanity and upon discovering how the Gods left them in the dark to be killed, he stole some of the Eternal Flame from Olympus and gave it to humanity. He is encountered in the 2nd game where Kratos gives him a mercy killing.
It was a good analysis, but I don't think it was perfect. The argument stands well considering what Dan, James, and Allison were working with. Little factoids like David Jaffe not being completely there for GoW II and III, the silly dialogue and the over emphasis in GoW III, and the knowledge the three main elements in Greek Tragedy really gives the argument in this video some weight. However, I know Dan missed a subtleties in and around the development of GoW II. He also did mention the other two games in the series, barring Ascension. Chains of Olympus and Ghost of Sparta respectively, which despite being marketed by Sony as side title, are actually crucial elements in the narrative. I won't spoil too much, but I will say there were plot elements in God of War that were almost retconned due to David Jaffe's lack of care towards the series, but thankfully were established in Ghost of Sparta. Kratos is actually a pretty sympathetic character, even at his worst in God of War III, when you understand his Spartan upbringing, lack of a father, and perpetual victimhood on behalf of the Gods constantly manipulating him and directly or indirectly putting obstacles in his path to find happiness or closure despite the loyalty that he expressed towards them in GoW 1 and Chains of Olympus. Also, Dan forgot that Zeus initially appeared to help Kratos during his raid of Rhodes in the opening to GoW II, which means even with out the necessary backstory with Zeus and Kratos's mother, Kratos still has reason to go after Zeus, even if it was "petulant" and "infantile", which, considering Ghost of Sparta and Chains of Olympus, isn't true at all.
Haha you fool
Actually, I'm going to go ahead and disagree with the switch from third to first person. Something very important that was left out was that at the end, when you're beating the crap out of him with your fists, the sequence actually continues as long as you keep punching. I don't feel like explaining the implications of this, and why the switch makes sense, because *effort* but there you go.
I like your insight and applaud how you, like the game's narrative, also don't feel like explaining the implications.
Perhaps the viewpoint switch was to suggest that the player themselves revel in the violence, much like Kratos does? To bring to light, in those final moments, that the player is just as guilty of the excesses of Kratos himself? Perhaps it's to make one consider that, over the course of three games, the player (through the puppet of Kratos) has violently murdered hundreds or thousands of creatures, heroes, men, and Gods?
...Probably not, but it's something to consider.
Bronson Carder They could've capitalized on that moment, and seized the opportunity to make the player go 'whoa... deep'. But instead... it was a cutscene smash attack event... which did not capitalize on the scene... so... yeah... 'why' is askedo nce more.
+Bronson Carder Its not like they were gonna turn off the game and not get the achievement...
Yes, absolutely, the scene could have been done better. But, I think saying that it has absolutely no redeeming value might be a bit too far. I think they tried to make a point, and that point fell a little flat, because it created a connection between the player and Kratos that had never even been alluded to at any other point in the series.
But, I think part of the point is that it's a quicktime event, and not a choice or an event with more freedom to make it unfold how you want it to. By putting you in his head, and then having him carry out his actions pretty much as he would have any way, it further makes the point; this is what you've been doing, for three games now. You've been party to unthinking, unfeeling, and inevitable violence.
Ultimately, imo, the major failing there, right at the end, is that they tried to do something much deeper than anything else in the game implied they would go for. They tried to have a "whoa.... deep" moment, but the moment fell flat, because there was no setup for it.
Bronson Carder it's not like you had a choice to not kill anyone,this is no MGS, it's a Hack'n'Slash,you kill or you die.
“The original post implies the person posting it thinks the games want to be taken seriously. I've only played number 3, and it seems like the creators knew how silly it was. I thought it was a hilarious game.”
I don't think this critique applies to GoW 2. Kratos was warned for how he mis-used his newfound powers, but he was just protecting the Spartan capital. Likewise, he only wanted revenge because Zeus killed him and destroyed that capital.
All you needed for a greek tragedy was to look at Zeus. Zeus murders his son Kratos (actions), after prophesying that one of his sons would kill him and trying to strike first (fall from grace), and ultimately inspires the very thing he wanted to stop (regret)
Just discovered a fun game. Watch an episode of extra credits that you haven't seen before on mute, and try to figure out what they are talking about!
+Late to the game That doesn't work for me, I just read there lips...
+Late to the game Chalange Accepted
+Late to the game I've always wondered that. Sometimes, you can figure parts out yourself, I can imagine.
good idea
i watch it without mute and still have a hard time trying to figure out what they are talking about lol
Having a change to first person may symbolise the illusion of choice. Greek storytelling also has a lot to do with destiny and how futile choice really is. Kratos goes through his journey to become the symbol of violence, war and rage, becoming in effect the God of War. By having a player in first person commit the final act without choice, you could be showing what has to happen for the narrative to be complete. Even if you yourself wanted a different ending, that's not what destiny allowed.
A great example of a person who was a master of this perspective switch was HP Lovecraft, but the idea of hopeless destiny has never been restricted to horror alone.
EDIT: I'd add that this is just a devils advocate viewpoint. I'm fully aware of how GOW3 plays.
To me its just rule of cool, plain and simple
Kratos descended into rage and violence as a way to deal with the guilt he could never be rid of. And to be fair, Zeus was going to kill Kratos no matter what he did, due to being corrupted by the fear and paranoia released by Pandora's box. And in the end, Kratos forever freed humanity from the influence of the gods by sacrificing himself to release the hope he unknowingly took from the box.
God of War started as a Greek tragedy, but wound up as a revenge & redemption tale with an almost literal cliffhanger. I'm wondering where the fourth game will go...
Oh, and the prequels definitely add some more insight into the why and how of Kratos' rationale.
Uh... and who was it that released Pandora’s Box?
Oh yeah Kratos, so Zeus going insane is all Kratos’ fault, also this quote from another comment: “The original post implies the person posting it thinks the games want to be taken seriously. I've only played number 3, and it seems like the creators knew how silly it was. I thought it was a hilarious game.“
i disagree with some of this. i LOVE that kratos learns nothing. why does every story need to have some redemption part at the end? why must it fallow some ancient formula? i especially love the part where (spoilers) he is holding onto the little girl, pandora, who reminds him vaguely of this daughter, stopping her from being sucked into oblivion, when zues begins to taunt kratos. kratos is so overcome with anger that he lets go of the girl in a futile attempt to lash out at zues. its a beautiful moment. in any other story kratos would have overcome his rage to save the little girl, thus showing some growth and redemption. but no. she dies. kratos is nothing but a jerk. its the way he is, and that is why he is and anything less would not feel genuine. secondly, about the first person part, i thought it very much had meaning. as a person who had played through the series, by this time you really want to get back at zues. the game has built up to it so much that when it puts you into the shoes of kratos, you eagerly pummel zues' face until he dies. nobody hesitates here to ask, why am i in first person? they go for it! greedily! the game has built up the rage for so long that no longer does kratos want to kill zues, YOU want to kill zues. i think that move by the developers was actually very satisfying, and a good way of allowing you to take a small part in what it feels like to be so overcome with bloodlust you do something which you normally wouldnt do and might later regret. it may not be a greek tragedy, but so what, god of war as a whole is one of the most compelling revenge fantasies ever.
*Z.E.U.S.
ZEUS...for the love of Zeus, it's ZEUS.
So what you are saying is they went the Death Note route to get you so immersed in the plot, somewhere you forgot about your morals and start to become part of the character and his/her ideas
exactly mrnight. you start to feel the things that the antihero/villan does and you applaud when his evil deeds come to fruition, when normally you might be disgusted by such acts. that level of immersion is a mark of a good story, imo, even if it doesn't fallow some per-determined Greek trope. however, i do see how some people would not be able to get into the character as much as me and i see how this effect could be lost on them.
what's the point in a story where nothing develops beyond a shallow, repetitive concept ?
Samir Malik but if it follows the first game formula, it'll also be repetitive
I feel this kind of thing is an issue with a lot of RPGs, not having justifiable reasoning for your actions. Sure we all like to go on killing sprees from time to time but that's never thought of as part of our/our character's story. One of the worst examples of this I can think of is detonating the Megaton bomb in Fallout 3. I feel this would have been so much better if they had worked more on Mr. Burke (the character who convinces you to do so) giving him more quests and slowly through dialogue have him attempt to convince you that the residents of Megaton are impure, their exposure to radiation means they'll likely become ghouls and as a vault dweller you are one of the few examples of pure humanity left. If there's ever a time when someone's asking you to kill someone or in this case wipe out a whole town in a world where humanity is crippled "Lol I'll pay you bro" is almost never a good enough reason.
+ben zhong But this is the problem with most RPGs. You actions really don't matter. You can go on a mindless killing spree, but then return to the main plot as if nothing's happened. You can generally express quite ambivalent behavior and it really does not matter. Sure, it's part of the fun to be able to do crazy things just for the sake of it. But, I would prefer games in which your actions truly matter. That would make your character and the world around you much more alive and interesting.
Sorry but that's a load of bullshit. How is this problem endemic in RPGs? This trait is far more common in games like GTA, Saint's Row etc none of which are RPGs. In addtition JRPGs are super linear with the story so yeah again you dont really have the ability to go on mindless killing sprees. The only time your specific problem pops up is in maybe Fallout and i dont know Fable...(and that's not really an RPG)
ben zhong The problem is with motivation not choice. I generally don't do something in fallout, or some other games, unless I can justify it by some reasoning (generally not aligned with my personal political, social or philosophical views) If the only reason being given to me in game is money that's pretty poor. Imagine if you asked the former tribesmen in Caesars Legion what they think of the legion and they said "Yeah my friends and neighbours were slaughtered raped enslaved and crucified but I'm getting paid it's fine" Money is the weakest motivation especially when doing something morally questionable definitely when doing something undeniably wrong.
That's more of a problem with you then fallout and also money is the most powerful motivation of all what are you talking about look at the Spanish with South America look at the British with India look at colonisation in general . All these horrible things done for money. Even in the case of the tribesman in Caesars legions ... yeah that totally happened the Roman Empire would often recruit people from conquered lands by offering money and lands so i dont get your point...
+ben zhong I blew up megaton and my friends stopped talking to me for a week
I've been thinking about subscribing for a while, but just now I realized I should do it.
You guys really are a good channel, that deserves a new subscriber.
I don't really like subscribing big channels, but you are not that big and quite worth it.
I am kinda interested about what you think about the channel now, if you even respond after 8 years. What are your thoughts on this channel as of now, as it was very different before. Was subscribing worth it to you? Are you still subscribed?
This, to date, is probably my favorite video you've done. I have always felt this way about the series, but had a very hard time putting it into words. You made it happen, so thank you.
This is a great analysis of the original GOW trilogy. I did think however there were too many split second artworks with words that I couldn't read in time and were very distracting to your narration. I would recommend not putting words with the artwork, and if you do, give each word ~2 seconds worth of screentime. Just my 2 cents..
He wasn't tricked into killing Ares, he was tricked into believing that doing so would rid him of his nightmares. Kratos WANTED to kill Ares.
He also tried to kill himself because he couldn't live with said nightmares. If they had relieved him of them, then he wouldn't have the revelation EC claims that he had.
I love the GoW franchise, but by the end of GoW3, I hated Kratos. He has no redeeming values other than his sheer perseverance and that he is capable of love under very specific circumstances. He's easily the bad guy of 2 and 3.
The thing about hope makes perfect sense given the myth of Pandora's Box, but it only came about at the end of GoW3, far too late to really give it any importance in the narrative.
yeah same
That is the freaking point of Kratos. Did you even actually understand the story or did you just think because he is the protagnoist he is supposed to be good. His tragic flaw was his own rage and inability to accept his own faults. That is why the latest two God of War are good because we get to see a side of him that was covered by his rage during the trilogy.
I love how you looked deeply into a game! Spoke about the story and analyzed it! i LOVE episodes like this!
I know this is a year old but you got the story wrong in my mind. Kratos was at best a murder wind up doll for the Gods to punish Ares for stepping into Athena's domain. And in spite of that, he is honored in death on Olympus and when they bribed their contract killer with power, he started roughing up all the gods for denying him his choice. This sparks kill streak number two, where his will actually gets broken near late game over what he did to a spartan soldier.
His drive was restored when he was coached by the Titans to aim the grief at Zeus and the third game comes along with him betrayed by the titans on top of it! By now Kratos may see this tug o war as unending unless both sides are killed off.
Add onto this that the last item of the box is coveted by Athena after the Zeus kill, and you can see the gears turning... With this power, a new pantheon that may deal the same fate to others as this last one did to him is too much of a risk to take. By killing himself, this one power gets handed out to humanity, instead of the Gods, to form the world in the wake of this death. Certainly not his end game goal but something to ponder. Kratos's win is a clear Phryyic Victory.
He's still the same. People misunderstand most about maturity, that they think it means content like violence sex or drugs. That is not what maturity means. Maturity deals with HOW that content is presented. Thank you so much for this message. I only hope some can understand it especially if games are to be in fact seen as an art medium.
kratos never feels remorse for killing the gods, he feels depression and anger that he is powerless to bring back his family, and none of the gods will help him, he never regretted killing ares, thats not why he jumped, he jumped because athena and zues deny him his reward of forgiveness of killig his family/making things back to how they should have been, after he finds out how uncaring and crummy the gods attitudes are he goes on a revenge streak, theres nothing wrong with him killing the gods, he saved human kind by de-establishing the arogant theology and giving humankind hope and power over their own lives, that is pure win for kratos, he took everything away from those who thought they could keep abusing human kind at their whims
but he didn't really save humanity in the end. because of his actions the world was in complete disarray only leaving the remnants of humanity the last vestiges of hope and having them to rebuild all that he destroyed both directly and indirectly. and in his wake left many innocent dead and the rest to scrounge for a way to survive in the chaos he created.
in god of war 1 he jumped not because of anger its because after all the killing, all the running and ALL THE FUCKING KILLING AGAIN, he got nothing no hope no reward just him his memories of sins, that my friends is guilt and impotence
Well in the God of War Universe, the gods basically control everything in the world, so when Kratos kills a god, the difference in the world is shown. When he kills Poseidon the sea is turned into one gigantic clusterfuck. When Helios dies the weather turns permanently cloudy. Each god had a role in that world, and one by one Kratos destroys it. Then again I've heard people make arguments that by killing himself, Kratos restores hope to humanity.
And let's not forget the events of Ghost of Sparta, which serve to only fuel the fire of his rage against the gods. (Basically, what happened to his mother and his brother)
Chase Langlands Don't forget Chains of Olympus, where he had to forever give up an afterlife in Elysium with his daughter so he could save the world from crazy bitch-queen Persephone.
Spec Ops: The Line is an excellent example of how an ending cutscene can be used to impact the player and make them aware of the character's actions.
Bear with me here:
Imagine if the final battle were to be Kratos fighting Zeus, all the while Zeus gives exposition into Kratos' misdeeds, mistakes, and former revelations; the battle continues, periodically Zeus keeps giving the exposition during breaks in the fight; making more sense, Kratos starts to give in to the guilt, the urge to fight starts to slowly leave him, so much so that he barely has the drive to use the blades, and they go limp; a little more dialogue, and Kratos begs for some type of forgiveness, having finally comprehended what he has done to everyone in his blind rage; Zeus feeling pity for this husk of a man gives him some sort of a choice, maybe Zeus can bring his family back from Hades or something redeeming in exchange for Kratos receiving a severe punishment (i.e. Prometheus' punishment), maybe being able to see them forever in his torture, or he can be sent to the underworld and maybe rule the underworld.
The choice being saving his family in exchange for eternal damnation and pain, or he takes power, but the souls of those closest to him are completely obliterated and he will never truly be complete.
I can see it all play out.
No commentary on how Cratos pretty much destroys the world through his actions in the 3rd game, but we're still meant to think of his as a good guy because he gave the humans "hope"?
Hey, Cratos, you know what would've been better than Hope? You not flooding the world, blocking out the sun and killing all plant life on Earth. I don't see how us being optimistic makes up for that.
I think this is a clear-cut case of sequelitis.
The first game had a clear, well developed character arc. It was complete. It was final. The vision was realized. This made it an instant hit.
As a result, greedy executives with no vision beyond "MOAR MONEY!" demanded a sequel, and then another, with no understanding at all of what made the first game good.
The problem is that the people running the show are not artists. They aren't even smart. They're just rich.
TheSmackerlacker To be fair in GoW 1 there was a symbol on the floor of a man fighting Zeus. I think there was always an idea to leave it open for others.
SuperSquatchie
Um... okay.
TheSmackerlacker And besides GoW is more about Gameplay and set pieces over story
SuperSquatchie
I agree with the set pieces, but the gameplay is pretty basic, really; push square and triangle repeatedly, more or less.
TheSmackerlacker You can make a case for the genre as a whole. The gameplay is deep if you crank up the difficulty a bit. it's not Dynasty Warriors repetitive, but some combos are pretty overused
Going back to this video, I have to say the art and caption selection is absolutely wonderful. This is probably my favourite EC in terms of visual companionship to the verbal content.
I think the Oregon trail has more dead bodies on it.
Eu4 PLeb I meant the game, but I suppose you're right.
especially when I played
The drawings are so fucking good lmao
Just finished meeting Valhalla, this video aged very well
You guys completely forgot to talk about GoW1's ending, which essentially ruined the whole Greek tragedy aspect by rewarding Kratos with godhood. In fact it comes out of left field so hard I think it was the producers wanting a happier ending, not the director.
*spoilers inbound* I think you forget the part where within 15 minutes of playing GOW2 you lose that godhood. As a whole, Kratos life still REALLY sucks. Even when he takes down Zeus he never truly wins *spoilers over*.
Actually, it is part of the tragedy. In mythology, a hero who dies (even through suicide) may enter the fields of Elysium and find eternal rest there. On the way, he may drink from Lethe, the river of forgetfulness and free himself of all shackles. When Athena forgives him (which she explicitly does) Kratos would have been allowed entrance to Elysium, since he became a Heros. But by making him an immortal, he is denied forgetfulness and will forever remember the horror of his mortal life. That is the height of his punishment.
***** Essentially, he is forced to live with his guilt for eternity. It's kind of brilliant.
***** This comment pretty much encapsulates what the ending of the first game was supposed to mean. The only problem I found with the ending was its presentation. It really should have emphasized the tragic irony of Kratos's fate - that, as he can't get away from his violent nature - the one thing that caused him pain the entirety of GoW's narrative - he would be doomed as the cause of violence and destruction. It's really weird looking back on it though, because the actual mood of the scene I felt didn't match with what the story was trying to say. Maybe it was a misunderstanding between the development team, but it was really weird.
***** Either this is an accidentally fitting end, or pure genius.
Kratos has an entire character arc at the end of the third game when he realises what he has done is wrong . He is not flat
"You were expecting a picture weren't you?" yes, yes i was.
One way that you could look at the first person event is that it symbolizes the loss of control rage causes. But it's not what they were going for and if it was it could have been done better by using it earlier where choices were available.
Boy, does this need revisiting. ;)
The redeeming part about that sudden shift to first person is that if you keep hitting Zeus, the game doesn't end. That entire previous section is about Kratos letting go of his rage and then they shove you inside Kratos and test to see if you were paying attention.
I think it is important to understand that some people do not change. Kratos was never the hero of our story. He is a terrible person with very few redeeming qualities. Whenever we see an opportunity for him to change, he'll fuck it over. He truly is terrible, and whatever we might sympathize with him for, we'll still ultimately know that he's the villain. But what I truly like about God of War as a whole, is that you are the villain. You may not realize it, but you are. And you'll justify not being a villain through whatever means necessary, just like Kratos.
But what if this time he does redeem himself in the new series? What if he actually tries to grow, to try to make sure his son doesn't follow in his footsteps, to perhaps learn to be better than he was? Redemption is a long and hard road paved with many obstacles and reminders of our failings, and the new game demonstrates that more so than any of the original games.
Every time you guys blow me away with the amount of insight you put into game development. Keep it up! Also, this video made me happy I only played the first game 😊
So now games have to tell fantastic stories to be good? *sigh*
yup
i love that the new god of war looks more like the original one than the sequels
haha i knew i wouldn't be the only one here after they revealed the new one
Came here to see whether someone was thinking the same thing :)
Can't wait for the game to come out and for the EC crew to analyze Papa Kratos.
I wonder what it'd be like for Extra Credits to make a retrospective and explore how God of War 2018 evolved from this early direction to create one of the most meaningful game stories ever.
I used to be on the same page as Daniel here. I am Greek so this goes double for me. I was raised into believing that the Greek Pantheon was benevolent until I red some stuff about how many kids Zeus had or about the way the greek gods punished Arachne, Adonis, Hercules, Ulesseus and tons of others. They were portrayed as teenagers abusing their power. Which was fine for ancient times. I didn't exactly agree with the portrayal of gods in GOW II forward and the things I was forced to do in III were not my cup of tea. What kind of guy keeps going even when he sees that his actions destroy the world ?
And then I red an article on Kotaku which shed new light on the subject. Kratos in GOW II and III is no longer a man in the strictest sense of the world. David Jaffe used to say that he would have him become the embodiment of death if he worked on the sequel. And that's what happens here but in a way that is . . . well, relatable.
Kratos is a soldier. Much like Brando in Apocalypse now or D'Onofrio in FMJ, war has and will leave him scarred, regardless of how much baggage is behind him or what he has witnessed. There will not be a 'I have seen everything' when it comes to war. You don't just stop doing what you were accustomed to doing because you have reached the peak of the mountain, ergo, killing a god. It is not how war works and it is not how post traumatic stress disorder works. Kratos is suffering from PTSD through the entirety of GOW II and III. I have met people like this, they are not in touch with the world around them. Their perception of reality is distorted and they follow a course of action that seems logical only to them. Same things would be heard in VA or AA meeting, me thinks. Kratos has killed his way forward for most of his adult life, being a Spartan general and all. His violent life coming to a halt is not something he can come to grips with. The last time he tried it, the gods denied him the satisfaction and made him a god.
Dan is right, Kratos has no redeeming value. But that doesn't stop him from being an interesting character throughout the trilogy and not a caricature. This is not a character like Asura, who is angry for the sake of being angry. This is a man whose inner peace has repeatedly been denied. He is a bit like Anton from No Country For Old Men, he is the way he is because he sees no other path he can follow. And whatever other path there was, is now gone. He is a bad guy and not many games give you the opportunity to play as one. His actions are not always justified, much less logical but these are the notions that someone who doesn't see another course of action goes through.
What is a gigantic plothole is not the fact that Kratos killed 90% of the Greek pantheon. It's why, when presented with a time machine, he chose to bring Gaia and the Titans to his own time instead of trying to save his family. That's something I never understood.
+Katsas Georgios Do the Greeks still believe in the Pantheon? Is it still practiced as a religion? I don't mean to offend by the way, I'm legitimately curious, being American myself.
+Pie Pierrot (Eta) Well, some do. It is an extremely short percentage of the population though. Ever since the Byzantium came through here, our religion has shifted to Christianity. The Orthodox kind.
Gabriel Katsas Ah, I see. That's interesting. Thanks for telling me! :)
Thank you for saying those things about standards and about competence vs. brilliance. That is how I feel sometimes, but I haven't been able to put it into words.
Comparing this video to the one about innovation:
In the innovation video you mentioned that the indie developers should sign over all rights to their idea to the AAA supporting them. But wouldn't that create the exact problem you are describing here? That someone lacking the original developers vision takes over?
I am no expert on games by ANY means, so I may be completely wrong.
I like this channel a lot, and I learn a lot from it but that innovation video always made me just think
"What? No! That can't be the solution. Lean and hungry? Signed over rights? That sounds like a nightmare."
Far far to easy for the people who already have power to abuse the ones who already have little power.
I have seen a lot of people voice these concerns in the comments, and while I am no expert, some of these people seam to know what they are talking about. I am not asking you to retreat your entire statement, but maybe... answer a few of the comments or make a video explaining what you meant?
OK far too long message. Leaving now. Bye.
This is the most timeless channel
Timelessly senile
Honestly, why is it that bad for a character to NOT learn something? For a player to not "learn" something. The ending of God of War 3 made some bad stylistic choices, sure, but I don't think it's necessarily bad to have something like a monologue about forgiveness and hope, disregarded by a character who has steeped himself in violence and brutality. Honestly, it's an archaic way of looking at things, that a character has to be a better person, or has to grow or learn something at the end, for it to be a good story.
Fuck that. I'm not saying character growth isn't good, but why does it have to be positive? That just feels like trying to dictate writing, which is always going to be perceived in different ways by different people.
Thats not their problem, though, their problem is that Kratos is reduced to a caricature.
Loved the photos, and the learning. Thanks.
After playing and reading reviews of the 2018 God of War, it kinda feels like Cory Barlog watched this video and was inspired to address this exact problem
I love your channel, which I discovered a few days ago, but on this occasion you missed the most important part of the narration of a Greek Tragedy: fatality. Whether it is Oedipus or Orestes, the fate of the main character of a Greek tragedy is certain and inevitable; he may try his hardest to avoid it, but his efforts will only hasten his doom.
Also, since the Renaissance we tend to only see a scenario in a Greek Tragedy, whereas in Ancient Greece it was a collective experience with deeper meaning and purpose: catharsis (the purge of one's pulsions), as well as a "trip" (yes, that kind of trip ^^) guided by the Chorus, which is always the most important character of a tragedy.
To learn more about the true meanings of the Greek Tragedy, I highly recommend reading "The Birth of Tragedy": Nietzsche's first opus.
Thanks a lot for the awesome videos!
If the GoW 1 Kratos sees the other Kratos's from 2, 3 and Ascension he would feel ashamed... and smash them instantly.
I didn't like Kratos enough but I feel I want to replay God of War 1 after this great video.
+Jedi Argento he was more human and relatable. He didn't just kill everyone for the sake of it. He was a soldier but he wasn't just killing for fun
He realizes what he has become many times throughout the the trilogy and has moments of self reflection.
Coming at you from the distant year of 2018, if love to see you come back to this now that there's a new, vastly different God of War game. I'd love to see your take on the new direction the series takes
I disagree with this video. Not all characters in entertainment media have to have a "redeeming" quality to be part of a good story. Sometimes a great story is meant to just be told, not to be associated with. We can just enjoy a story without putting ourselves in that story.
Let's be real here, the series turned into a cash cow: it went from Greek tragedy to Greed tragedy. You can 'disagree', but you can't stop facts from being facts.
BrEnNo1023 Actually I don't disagree with that part. 99% of game franchise are cash cows. They are made to produce profit and God Of War is no exception. I disagreed with the video due to the posters exclaiming that because Kratos has no redeeming qualities by the end of his journey, his story is bad. I might be paraphrasing that a bit but that's the take away that I took from this video.
Rain - Man
I feel, personally, that the unique nature of video game storytelling makes it pretty much mandatory for the player to have some form of empathy with the character in order for them to get anything out of the story.
I empathized with Raz in Psychonauts, with Alucard in Castlevania: Symphony of the Night, with Cloud and Yuna in Final Fantasy VII and X (respectively), and even with the Hero of Bowerstone in Fable II despite being basically a self-insert for the player.
But Kratos? I couldn't stand him. By the end of the first post-boss fight cutscene in the first God of War, I WANTED him to die. I WANTED his quest to end in failure because he was a remorseless, bloodthirsty, unforgivable dick. That was when I put down the controller and stopped playing. Good gameplay, for me, can't save a game if it has a horrible story (I'd rather have no story at all if that's the case), and an unlikable main character will kill a story for me.
But the story of God of War was intended to be a tragedy, you were intended to sympathize with Kratos. Something that the third game fails at miserably
“The original post implies the person posting it thinks the games want to be taken seriously. I've only played number 3, and it seems like the creators knew how silly it was. I thought it was a hilarious game.”
Yes! Great review-couldn't agree more! Where are the games with meaning and benefit for players? We need more!
is breaking bad a greek tragedy?
BREAKING BAD SPOILERS:You could probably view it as one. The total and utter destruction of one from a fairly powerful position. Yeah, Walter is pretty much annihilated.
No, it's modern tragedy. Greek tragedy is much different. (if you'd like, i can explain)
Tristan Phillips i'm not the one who made the original comment but if you can, please do. I get Greek tragedy now but what is modern tragedy? How does breaking bad fit into that?
Well, it's harder for me to explain modern tragedy, i'm far more akin to Greek. But, modern falls under our hero starting with nothing, often gaining nothing, losing everything, and stuff along those lines. If it was Greek tragedy he would've started strong or healthy, but BB had the main character ill and poor, and he had to rise up, and inevitably fall down. The real breaking point is the end. (SPOILERS) He gets revenge and saves his sidekick, while in Greek tragedy he would've either left forever, or died. He does still die, but all that heroism at the end is typical to Greek, more modern, a happy-ish ending.
No it’s a damn anime. Why the hell does nobody understand this!?
Playing as a character that the player does not always identify with is an artistic choice. It forces the player to explore actions they aren't comfortable with. Sometimes that provides introspection into their unidentified traits. Sometimes the player may be unsettled by what they are made to do, and that is an emotional reaction that other mediums cannot provide. Bravo, GoW III, you've done well.
Got a smile on my face when they said Deicide. \m/
Ohh wow, I began to watch this channel not so long ago, and now that I hear how the voice changed across the years... wow
I like all the videos I've seen so far but I feel that the analysis of this series is a bit narrow. Okay so looking at how the third game talks about hope through pandora makes sense considering that the myth actually mentions that Pandora's box held all the evils of the world but also housed hope. I'm sure I don't have to go into lengthy details about the plot but the third game does go full circle as far that theme goes. In the first game the Kratos is Hopeful that he can find redemption but once he finds it he is realizes that what he really wanted, freedom from the guilt of murdering his family, was not what the gods were offering. This is what turns him into a man seeking vengeance after he is betrayed by Zeus. Look at why Zeus betrays him. Is Kratos really that bad I'm comparison to Aries? Well there is no context so fuck it haha. But Kratos was doing what the God of war should probably do: death and destruction to his enemies. He still has remorse for people who had never betrayed him like the Spartan Captain whom he killed out of self defense, but every instance like that strengthens his resolve to murder the god Zeus. And Zeus is the only god he intended to kill. All the other gods got in his way and since "the gods can't be trusted" he just takes them out of the equation. But I've digressed too much. The first game is about redemption but living with the mistakes you've made, the second game is vengeance for broken trust and promises, and the third installment is hope and letting go. If my last statement towards the last game doesn't make sense just think back to the final QuickTime event where Zeus gets his face pummeled. It only ends after you stop punching his face. I seriously spent 20 minutes doing it and only stopped out of frustration and confusion when my screen was just a red glow, but when I stopped the game moved forward. So I agree with some points in the video but I feel that this analysis is kind of shallow and a bit narrow. They also never mentioned how David Jaffe actually wanted Kratos to kill all the gods and then become the personification of death before witnessing the birth of Jesus as a sing of…wait for it…hope haha. Seriously just look at the interviews with the game directors.
hmm interesting
would be curious to have this revisited in light of God of War 2018...
I would really love to hear what he thinks of the soft reboot... the new GoW certainly seems to have a firm grasp of storytelling once more.
No god of war always had a firm grasp on story. The newer game is just better
I sincerely hope you guys have a video in the works about this in response to the new God of War's take on norse mythology - not just the extra mythology series, but a breakdown of the new *character* of Kratos... because in that game, he is very much a different man than the one we see at the end of GoW3.
This Kratos has learned from his mistakes. This Kratos understands that he deserves to suffer for the things he's done, and that the only justified killing is in self defense. He understands that there is no satisfaction at the end of a path of vengeance.
But most importantly, this Kratos is capable of wisdom and compassion - not instead of his seething rage, but ALONGSIDE it. He has become a more complete character - not by abandoning his flaws, but by learning to live with them and mitigate and control them.
I VERY much want to hear what James and the rest of the EC crew have to say about this
Looks like you need to redo this video God of war has a new game coming!
I think that the switch to first person is one of the better things with the ending. There is no end to the time you can punch Zeus, you can continue to beat him over and over and over and the game won’t progress until you stop.
well... the reason the story is so bad is simply because they did not need a story. they just wanted money so they kicked out the expensive director and just made a money machine.
I guess the extra credits team already know this but now you know as well :D
yeah... I have heard that a few times now and feel kind of stupid.
The editting, pictures, drawings, and humor decisions in this specific episode were remarkably awesome.
The topics always interest me and teach me a lot, and it's usually very entertaining as well, but this one was far better on that specific area compared to the other episodes I've watched! At least in my opinion.
Kratos ? Recognizable ? Hah ! Every time i see him, my first thought is for the Diablo 2 Barbarian.
only your thought
i dont even know what your character reference looks like..
karry299 Diablo is better than God of War, console peasants. HAHAHA!
TheFableGamer just because they use a console doesn't mean they're a peasant
look at me and my family, WE'VE PROBABLY HAD EVERY FRIGGIN' CONSOLE THERE IS and we've all got computers
Still one of my favorite videos in your series because it is one of the best you ever made. I've fallen behind on Extra Credits, so I'm starting from the beginning to get caught up, but I hope you did a movie giving your opinion if God of War IV redeemed itself
I don't mind remorseless killing, but Kratos should have shown some regret at FIRST, building up to the endless murder. Or, alternatively, have Kratos slaughter the gods, look at what he's done, and at least do something that reminds us he's human, and maybe realizes he's butt fucked the world.
I've never really watched your stuff... but I am really glad that you have a view that games need to try to keep progressing and getting better... in all ways. I know far too many people that think it is wrong of me to believe that games should be advancing. I actually feel that.. in most aspects, AAA game titles are moving backwards.
Even in the most basic elements of game play....
Look at something like Starsiege:Tribes and Tribes 2.. and then look at...
Tribes Vengeance, Tribes: Ascend, Halo (all of them), and any other sci-fi shooter.
The first God of War is the only game that is really worthy to play in the franchise anyway. There are way better Hack n' Slash series out there such as Devil May Cry, Ninja Gaiden and Bayonetta yet this one is the most popular. This game also sets up for dumbing down hack n' slash games and making people seems to think that every Hack n' Slash game is a rip off of this.
I hope you guys return to this with the release of the new one.
The word "git" just sounds wrong in an American accent.
Then you play newest God of War. They curbed the spectacle creep a bit. They added on tragic backstory. They made him start over and try to have a peacefull life. Then he was forced to fight demons of his past that caught up with him while trying to prevent the same fate for his 2nd child. I was glued to the screen.
There has always been a tragic backstory in God of War. You need to pay attention to the trilogy.
Did you guys even play the original God of War to completion? Kratos was in no way remorseful for killing Ares. He was all too happy to do it. He attempted suicide because even doing what the gods (mostly Athena) asked, he was still abandoned to suffer. His suffering was the fact that he was tricked into killing his family, and the guilt-driven memory of that drove him mad. He thought he was promised that in exchange for killing Ares, his visions of his past would be removed. They were not. Therefore, he lost all hope and attempted to end his life.
That said, I have to mostly agree with you about God of War III's ending. While I actually appreciated the developers trying to use Pandora's hope line as a message for Kratos to accept, the rest of the ending was completely weak and poorly done. For all that talk about hope, Kratos doesn't have any at the end, despite being full of it earlier. In the end, he still kills himself by falling from the cliff. To be honest, the ending in its entirety was poorly done, except for diving into Kratos' psyche and him remembering Pandora's message as the only thing he could still cling to. This is coming from someone who very recently finished God of War III but has little love for the series.
I think you guys should try to pay more attention to game narrative because it seems like a lot of things you state were wrong or utterly missing, I felt were delivered fairly well. I also think you fail to understand basic characterisations and story plots given. There were many story- or world-enhancing elements I've noticed in some games that it seems you didn't catch for one reason or another. I mean absolutely no insult with this. I'm sure there are things you notice about the same games that I miss. I just think there were enough clues and statements given, and I feel as if you guys overlooked those. Again, that said, you guys were spot on with some things like the ending of III being poorly done. As someone who fancies myself as a storycrafter, I understand what they were trying to achieve, but I think they could have tried harder.
Still friends?
there is one moment that redeems kratos in the forth game (releaced years after this video) more than any other moment could.
he quotes zeus, saying "the cycle ends here" to a young, powerful rage-ball bent on petraside. who he then stops.
6:15 "Are we asking too much of a video game here?"
Well of course we are. Games like Skyrim are proof that depth is a little too much for a video game and that we should just be glad for what we have. What? Oh silly, no one remembers Lufia or Xenogears or even Kingdom Hearts, we just need to sell this sh!t and get on with our lives.
What's wrong with Skyrim? Granted, it's not as story-driven as a JRPG, but none of the Elder Scrolls series have been. The point of an open-world game is very different than the point of a linear, story-driven game, it's like apples and origins.
I love Final Fantasy 6, 7, and 10. I love Kingdom Hearts 1 and 2. I love Psychonauts, Journey, and Lost Odyssey. I love (the first two) Batman: Arkham games. Games that deliver deep narrative experiences are awesome.
But I also loved Oblivion and Fable II. I love Scribblenauts, and I love Skyrim, Kingdoms of Amalur, and Sims 3. Games that let you explore the world and decide where the story goes, or what choices you make, are a unique feature that only video games can deliver. Ever since the very first Legend of Zelda, or even earlier, the joy of exploration has given that brand of game a unique pull that you could only get before by reading about a dozen D&D rulebooks.
I look forward to the day where narrative and storytelling in games embraces its uniqueness fully and innovates, rather than simply mimicking the cinematic experience. But does that mean I don't want good, deep stories? of course not.
Curt Clark Sorry, Skyrim's kinda boring. If you want to, you can look up GamingBrit's video called An Overrated Epic (We Should've Acted) I think. It's pretty funny and more or less describes exactly what I think about the game.
D MAS
I watched it, and he makes some good points. The same way Extra Credits did with the Skyrim opening.
I still love the game, though. A lot of his complaints are subjective, about the setting, combat style, etc. And I disagreed.
Curt Clark For me, it's annoying to even play.
D MAS Yeah its on my desktop.. i.. occasionally open it when im downloading something and can't play any games that require me to extensively use internet... but every time I do it makes me feel sick with its mediocrity and lack of choice, storytelling, or really even the core feature of elder scrolls games.. discovery. You always knew what to expect, and half the places in the game looked exactly the fucking same. Skyrim was bad, and ESO sure as hell didn't make up for it. Bethesda has some serious apologizing to do with the next Elder Scrolls Game
This franchise is THE exemple to be followed in the future, the form they did to improve the story without denying it's fails, but instead using then in the narrative as a important aspect of Kratos personality is just fantastic.
Not just because it is good, but also because it brings to light a way to turn bad writing into good plot and characters for a sequel game, I don't remenber any other good exemple of this in games before.
I disagree, here's why. The game was about Kratos freeing humanity from an oppressive arrogant pantheon of gods. He cares for Pandora and he goes from the first games redemption to blind hate to liberator of men. He lived in a time where the gods were everything and he felt they abandoned him in his most dire moments. After that he realises what the gods are (overpowerd people) and that they are nothing special. He goes on a quest to free humanity and bring hope to the land. The end of the third game is not a destroyed world. It is a world without gods, and a world where human beings can shape their own lives. If you look you can see the souls of the people flying around and that shows that they are no longer bound by the gods..... I'm rambling now and I think I've more or less explained my thoughts.
I kinda think its a way of showing even through remorese, people change, and not always for the better. They can even use the paving stones of enlightenment into the road back to regression into what their true, primal form is. Not sure if that was going for or not, but it definatly makes sense.
The premise of this video is wrong in its execution. Name a painter of skill, then someone that isn't skillfull at painting. Compare a painting from both people. Just because one lacks skill doesn't mean is bad, doesn't have value, or is devoid of meaning. Both are art. Both have value even if one is less skillful than the other.
Saying GoW3 has no redeeming value is snobbery. If it had no value, the game wouldn't exist, and in fact wouldn't cause EC to create a 8.5 minute video about it. It surely wouldn't have had a remastered release in '15 or an at least 80% positive review rating overall. What is has is different values from the first game in the series. And indeed different values from the video creators themselves. Just as much that some people enjoy the first game more than the third, many enjoyed the third more than the first and equally some enjoyed all three equally, but in different ways.
Much like the game series story arch itself, the video also leaves its own premise from the start and becomes a rather soapbox style critique on how the 3rd installment is a bad game. This was, by description, a discussion of the triumph and failing of storytelling. But by criticizing Kratos for acting like a flawed man-child and claiming the game itself has no value or the developers are wrong because of the character's actions is incorrect. Storytelling is not the plot. Storytelling is the mechanism of how the plot is delivered to the player.
Maybe Kratos is just a flawed man-child that takes no responsibility in his own actions and responds to everything with violence. Does that make the game bad? Does that make the designers wrong? No. It makes Kratos an immature prick, and the game a realistic lens of that character.
Make sure that the topic is correctly in focus when creating such things. A video on storytelling should only be how the game tells the story, not the subject matter in the plot itself or how it went afield of how you think the story should have gone. That leads to head-canon and fanfiction and a different series of videos entirely.
.......
You are correct
At least about everything but kratos he is a good interestingly flawed character
There is nothing that could make me agree with this post more. BRAVO!
A lot of people forget that a good story doesn't have to be an enjoyable story. Similarly, a lot of people forget that for a main Character to be a good Character, they don't have to be an enjoyable Character, or even fall on the good end of the moral spectrum. The notion that for a Video Game Protagonist to be good in that role, they have to have "redeeming qualities" is far too constrictive. Seriously, people should look up "Villain Protagonist" -- it's a thing, it exists, and reading what it entails is bound to be very interesting to a lot of people.
David C you wasted so much time
But I disagree with your art statement some art is just bad either because of skill or a lack of creativity from the artist, art like storytelling can be objectively bad
Ok. 2 problems here.
1. You forgot about the PSP title Ghost of Sparta, which actually gives reasons for his actions in the events of God of War 2 and 3. To give a bit of brief context, Kratos goes look for his long lost brother, who he thought died and feels guilty for not protecting him. By the time he is reunited with his brother, Thanos, the god of death, kills the brother and the gods do nothing to help him. In fact, they were behind the kidnapping and imprsionment of his brother and now that they see that the last of his family member is now dead, he can continue to focus on being a God. Which angers him even more.
2. While, yes 3 isn’t the greatest game ever, I would consider that the 2018 reboot/remake/reimagining will actually develop him even more. Going from a Greek tragedy to a Norse tale of wisdom and truth.
What I’m trying to say is, these guys are claiming that the fact that Kratos’ actions in the sequels have no significance when they actually do (and yet they claim to be professional gamers?). And saying that Kratos becomes a mindless killer that will never be redeem is a little far fetched considering that the next game in 2018 will make him redeemable now that he has a new family (or at least, his son for now). I think the new game shows that Kratos is trying to be redeemed.
Can you guys please revisit this video? Some of the comment responses on here are brilliant, and I personally think you guys did a pretty haphazard job by dismissing the first person view at the end because you were trying to fit your own narrative.
I actually enjoyed the scenes between Kratos and Pandora because you can tell her positivity in the face of hardships does grate on Kratos yet he can't bring himself to harm her; be it because of this attitude or that she reminds him of his dead daughter.
While I do agree, slightly, in regards to the GoW III there is still one preceding and rather massive plot hole that occurs at the end of the second game. Kratos gains the use of a gate that can take him back in time. To any when he wants. And he doesn't go back in time, deck himself in the head, and save his family. WHY!?
When you talked about changing perspectives, I immediately thought of Alleigent, or however it's spelled. As soon Roth switched to Four's narration, I just knew we were in for a character killing fiasco of a third book.
Didn't one of the leader-position people of god of war say that story was the least important part of a game? Might have been the director of 2 and 3. Would explain a lot.
I love that 'fail' award ribbon at the end, just like children get in school.
I also love what this video teaches us.
I believe the symbolism is that you not kratos was the killer
and the complaint is that, we are pretty sure Kratos is the killer. Since the linear gameplay did not allow us to do anything but what Kratos wanted to do. Randomly putting us into first person is definitely just a game gimmick because you can't just shove us in that situation and try to make us all accomplices cuz we're not. We never had a choice but to do the damn quick time events ;) cuz i sure as hell didn't want to slaughter some of those gods, but... Kratos!
But if we were killer then who was phone??
No but seriously, you can't just throw in a twist at the end without building up to it. Unless it changes your interpretation of past events, it's just nonsense.
i guess that is true I just wanted to find sense in it all which wasn't there
the8u9 No, you are. The only way to win is to set the controller down. Why does Spec Ops: The Line get praised for the same device, but GoW3 is irredeemable for it? Oh, right, because Kotaku doesn't like it.
Pretty sure the story aspect of the third games is Kratos coming to realize that vengeance earns him nothing
Thank you