THAT'S NOT OIL! Ford 3.7 / 3.5 Cyclone V6 Suffers Infamous Failure Mode
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 ก.ย. 2024
- Check out our website at www.Importapart.com or email us at importapartsales@gmail.com for parts and part inquiries.
I've been tearing down engines on camera for 2 and a half years! Search my channel to see what I've torn down. Here's a few recents:
Mini Cooper/PSA N14 • JUNK Mini Cooper S (BM...
Ford 1.0 Ecoboost 3cyl • JUNK Ford Ecosport 1.0...
Infiniti/Nissan VR30DDTT • 60K Miles on 1 Oil Cha...
Dodge Ram 8.0 V10 • 8 LITERS OF DESTRUCTIO...
Today's teardown is a Ford 3.7 Cyclone V6. This engine is used in LOTS of vehicles with a few differences and is a larger version of the 3.5L including the Ecoboost found in the F150, Flex and Taurus. These engines are incredibly reliable with one major problem for only the fwd based engines. The water pump. When the pump fails, it can fill the crankcase full of coolant which causes damage throughout the engine usually rendering it cheaper to replace than to repair. The front-wheel drive variant of these engines(which have the internal water pump) are found in the Mazda 6, Mazda CX-9, Ford Fusion, Edge, Flex, Taurus, Explorer, Police interceptor, Lincoln MKZ, MKT, MKS, Continental. The Rear wheel drive based variant which does not suffer from the same failure, is found in the 2011+ Mustang, F150, and Transit.
This particular engine is from a 2015 Mazda CX-9. I do not know the mileage on this engine unfortunately but it was replaced at the dealership last year so I would guess around 90-100k miles. Sadly this failure is fairly common and there aren't many things to do to prevent it. The severity of the damage all depends on how quickly it is caught. Sometimes when caught early, it can be repaired. In many cases, its caught too late.
Why am I doing this? I own and run a full service auto salvage business called Importapart. Part of our model involves buying core and blown up engines to tear down and salvage the good parts for resale. We do not rebuild engines, merely supply parts to those who do.
I really hope you enjoyed this teardown. As always I love all of the comments, feedback and even the criticism.
Catch you on the next one!
-Eric
I rebuild pumps for a living, little ones to huge ones, the seal in the water pump is known as a mechanical seal, a spring pushes a white Teflon disk against a lipped rubber washer to make the seal,
Fun Fact: If you touch the white Teflon disk or the rubber lipped washer barehanded, the oils from your fingers will cause the seal to leak, we always wash the Teflon and rubber in acetone, and wear silicone gloves when we assemble the mechanical seals.
Interesting. 😊👍
Silicone gloves?!? What are these black magic tools you speak of? I've heard of nitrile, latex, and vinyl.
@@turkeyssrit’s easy enough to make silicone gloves. I’m not sure how much better they would be than the alternatives for most applications though so not a huge market.
The carbon seals in a jet engine are the same way. The acid and oils from your hands will trash them over time.
interesting
I had a 2013 Mustang with the 3.7 cyclone and the water pump died on it. Grismer quoted me $1200 to change the water pump. I told them to pound sand, and did it myself for $150. It was actually pretty easy to do. If it was under the timing cover, I probably still would be in debt from that repair bill 7 years later.
I did mine in a CX9 took me a Couple Weeks , major pain. I thought timing Chain was going out due to rattling so I changed it and water Pump.Put it Back together still rattled, turns out it was low on PAG oil . SMH.
The Mustang 3.7l is an external water pump as its rear wheel drive based same with the F-150. All the Ford vehicles that were front wheel drive based such as the explorer, the 3.7l had an internal water pump because Fords brilliant engineers thought it would never fail. You should have told them it's not an internal water pump in the Mustang, which most independent repair shops believe it is as the 3.7l has a bad reputation for internal water pump failures lol.
YES THESE WATER PUMPS ARE A KILLER IN PRICE AND LOCATION. THE DEALERSHIP WILL SCREW YOU IF YOU HAVE THEM DO IT FOR YOU. PLUS SINCE THEY ARE A DIRECT INJECTION THEY TEND TO HAVE VALVE TRAIN PROBLEMS STARTING AT 35 THOUSAND AND UP. RUN GOOD, BUT NOT WORTH THE HIGH TECH PROBLEMS. THEY DO HAVE A WEEP HOLE. BUT IT IS NOT WHERE YOU THINK IT WOULD BE. SO SAVABLE IF YOU KEEP AN EYE ON THE ENGINE. BUT FOR THE AVERAGE DRIVER ALL THEY DO IS START AND DRIVER AND WAIT FOR IT TO BREAK. OH WELL.
Thanks!
I currently own a 2013 Mustang.
Rapidly approaching 200,000 miles and dead nuts reliable.
Hopefully they're honest enough to change the bill after finding it's not the internal one. They later redesigned it anyway to fit the external water pump on anyway for transverse. Bet they wish that had been done in the first place before tanking confidence in the engine family@@edwardsr70
Putting water pumps and starters behind a cover is a recipe for failure. Those parts are wear parts that should be easy to replace, and failure of a water pump shouldn't allow coolant to get into the crankcase. It is funny to see the "get a bigger hammer" used to "carefully" disassemble a water pump.
He has trouble removing dip sticks, what are his chances with a pump shaft😀
Those of us who are old (like me) will remember the "ord had a better idea" ads form the 70s. we always said "Ford had a shitty idea" at the shop. and we were usually right.
Starters under intake manifold is the cake taker for me
@@justinwilliams5213So you really enjoy Porsche v8's eh?😆
@@life_of_riley88 yeah those are my dream 🤣 just like jaguar inboard brakes
“I don’t care what I make, I just want a good video for you guys.” Those are the words of a truly amazing content creator
"I don't care what survives" is what I heard at 16:20. I've seen him try to sell parts of engines he's torn down. He cares.
I caught mine failing on my 15 taurus. It only leaked externally, and my temp gauge showed a fluctuation and I topped off on coolant and went home. It was a feat in itself to change the pump and chains, but it's still going to this day and that failure was 40k miles ago. Awesome engines overall.
Ford just seem to love these sorts of design ideas. Like, let's design the body so that when the windshield gutter drain gets blocked with leaves or whatever, it will overflow straight onto the dipstick for the transmission, which really isn't waterproof, so the rainwater will mix with the ATF and un-glue all the clutch pack friction. I'm sure it saved like, 10c a vehicle to do it this way.
BTW you're going to be in real trouble when Blue wises up, learns how to edit, and starts his own channel.
I had a guy decline me doing head gaskets on his Windstar. Instead he had some hacks put in a used engine. They bent the trans dipstick at the o-ring connection and broke the the duct under the wiper tray. Water intrusion destroyed 2 transmissions before I figured out what happened.
@@don2deliver Snow built up on the roof my girlfriends 2009 Mini, water flooded over the passenger side wiper tray and flooded into everything as well as leaked in the computer in the right side foot well. It caused something like 59 engine codes
🤣
On the transits it also runs off into the air filter housing causing the air filter to break apart
I imagine that Ford went with the internal water pump on the fwd because of packaging constraints, however that must've been a way to separate the bearings and drive sprocket in such a way as to make this failure a lot less likely - but there's also the factor of cost. In the end, as in most things the devil is in the details. A reliable otherwise good design brought to its knees with one seal and bearing.
Toyota Camry V 6 had the water pump in exactly the same place but the timing was toothed belt. No problem! Ted from down under.
You can see the motor mount location. It's right where the external water pump would be on the other version.
Have one of these in a F150 with 310K running strong. A hard working strong, with about 90K with a 5k trailer in tow.
Ford exec: "If we put the water pump inside the timing cover we won't have to re-engineer the front end to make this engine fit and we'll save thousands in engineering costs."
Ford engineer: "But what happens if it starts leaking coolant into the crankcase?"
Ford exec: "Who cares, by the time the water pump fails it will be out of warranty and it will be the customers problem not ours."
Crazy thing is they didn't have to re-engineer anything the Duratec 3.0 had the water pump on the outside on the rear of the front bank of cylinders driven by the camshaft in FWD cars
@@lieutenantdan8170 But if engineers weren't constantly re-engineering things they would have a hard time justifying their existence.
Yes exactly
We sell more replacement engines.
How often does a water pump fail???
Far less than the camshaft on a ls.
Water pumps last 200k miles, or more.
I briefly owned a MKZ with the 3.5. After learning where Ford put the water pump and the cost to have a shop replace it, that car quickly got sold before I had a 4 door paperweight.
My service manager at the dealer I work for has an MKZ with the 3.7 and she has religiously maintained it and it has been a pretty good car having 220k miles but she had hers fail also seems like coolant changes dont help keep the pump working any better
@@ThrowAway-md9zxprobably a Yugo
I own a Fusion Sport 2010 if this ever happens I'll just have them replace it with the more reliable 3.0L V6 Duratec that has the external waterpump design. Yes a little less power but not less anyone would notice over having a much more reliable engine.
@@MondayNightRAWsRKO2024-xk9ew This isn't the 70s, you're not going to be able to plug and play anything but the original engine (probably from the same year) into your Fusion. If it goes, have it replaced and you'll get another 150K out of the engine. BMW and Mercedes owners spend $3-5K every year to keep those boats running.
That is no longer an oil pump. It’s the secondary/backup water pump now.
redundancy at its finest 😂
Mind is blown. Been working on vehicles for years. Never knew about the threaded bolt hole trick. I will say this trick rarely works for brake rotors though. At least not here in the rust belt. It simply pulls the threads. Cool tip though. I saw those threaded holes on the oil pan as well. Always enjoy your videos
Obviously Ford needs to develop a lubricant based coolant 🤔
Think we just saw the results of their wateroil road testing.
The belt within the three cylinder eco boost engines won't survive that:)
It's right behind the reliable oil soaked timing belt on the development schedule.
Kind of like the Blaser cut coolant used in machine shops!
Those Can Be Found in👀
Nuclear Reactors😮😊👍💔🏴☠️
I still remember the old Ford TV commercials from the 70’s “Ford has a better idea” with the light bulb !!! Seems as though that bulb burnt out a long time ago and nobody can find a ladder 😉🇺🇸
We demand the return of Safety Tote!
Safety Tote needs its own logowear line!
Bring back safety tote!
Great job, gotta tell you that ive learned more about engines watching these teardowns than anything else
You have taught me so much, thank you. Since watching your channel I have had the water pump, and everything else under the timing cover, replaced on my wife’s 2012 140K mile 3.7L CX9, I’ve muzzled the VCM on my daughter’s 2015 3.5L Honda Pilot, upgraded the driver’s side turbo oil supply line on my son’s 2017 2.7L F150, and learned so much about my 2008 RAM 2500 6.7L Cummins with 300K miles. I have no doubt that you have saved me and my family money and hardship down the road - thank you!
If you think that's great, think how Chickanic can save you money and hardship on your small engines!
I think the oil pump broke from locking up due to lack of lubrication, Compressing water versus compressing oil is not really that much different, when you think about it....Thanks for the videos, I really enjoy them.
I think it was the metal from the water pump bearing, block damage, cam bearings, rod bearings and main bearings that over time killed the oil pump. Friction and heat.
We know that it was some kind of thermal injury to the engine... friction and heat from somewhere. I also think it was Ford's shitty engineering, we all can agree on that.
No compression, pump just spins and the oil/water/whatever is DISPLACED when the pump spins around by the gears volume going to near 0 from top to bottom of the rotary spinning and gear meshing.
I actually really like the 3.5/3.7l engine, with the exception of the internal water pumps. If you own one of these engines, I would suggest doing the water pump as a maintenance item at a certain interval. Like every 80k or 5 years. Use a high quality pump. You are going to spend a considerable amount of $ on the job, but cheaper than an engine. The Explorers and Tauruses, I can do them with the engine in the car in about 4.5 hours (flat rate is 10). The smaller chassis such as the Edge, I don't see enough room to get the cover off. So out the bottom it goes.
On the Edge, i remove the motor mount, raise the motor enough to remove the top 2 bolts of the motor mount bracket from the engine, then I remove the lower dog bone, loosen the trans mount through bolt, then loosen all the subframe bolts and remove them from the passenger side to lower the engine enough to remove the lower bolt of the motor mount bracket. While it’s lowered i can remove the p/s pump bolts, serp belt tensioner, balancer, and all but 2 of the cover bolts. Then raise it back up for the rest of the job. Sounds like a hassle just for the one motor mount bracket bolt, but it really doesn’t take that long, and it provides a lot of access to the rest of it and makes gasket surface sealer cleanup a bit easier, and sure beats pulling the entire engine.
The stupid thing is, is that ford has placed a hole in the frame rail near the location of that lower bolt, but it’s only on the outer web of the frame so it doesn’t pass through to access the bolt. A properly placed 1” hole saw could save a lot of hassle, but I’ve never done it.
@@BlainesGarage Dang, sounds like you have the Edge down pat. I just wrote them off as drop the engine and be done with it.
You can actually pull the engine and trans out the top too if you don't have a way to raise the rest of the car high enough to clear it. Despite the fact that the service manuals say it can't be done.
I know this for a fact. I've done it twice, and have a video on my channel on how to do it. It's actually not bad. The whole front end of an edge comes off pretty easily.
My Mom's Taurus has a 3.5 in the front wheel drive configuration. This is one of the failures that worries me. It seems like it would cost almost as much to do the water pump as it would to change the engine.
Thanks for the Saturday night entertainment Eric.
It's a maintenance item anyways. Regardless of failure it should be replaced every 100k
I believe that weep hole would only leak if the inner side of the double O-ring leaks. A shaft seal leak would just go straight into the oil pan, yes?
Not even close, roughly $1200 vs putting a new or reman engine in. Figuring removing and re-installing everything and assuming no issues in doing so. Even dropping a junkyard engine of unknown condition and potentially the same failure looming would be hard pressed to be under that.
Much rather replace the pump on one that hasn't leaked into the crankcase than do an engine R&R.
You know I think one of big issues is the temperatures seen by parts when the engines are bigger and more complex. I have had Ford V6 engines which when new ran great but did not account for thermal removal of heat via air. Hence the rear bank of 3 cylinders see more heat and die sooner. I think Ford really does not care about durability after a certain age. I worked at Ford and a guy trades in a Taurus that felt like junk. Not many miles and well-maintained.
Knowing these engines are reliable, especially the RWD applications with the external water pump, is very nice to know and reassuring.
Salvage yard here - we don't keep more than one or two of the RWD Cyclones because no one calls for them. The FWD versions we keep in stock because people don't repair the pump when they first start barking.
After watching this teardown, I learned that the way to clean gunky engines is to pour coolant into crwnk case for next 10k miles.
As we saw many times on this channel... that's not good for the bearings but yes, it makes your engine cleaner.
Yes works great. Everything replaced w a crate engine 😅
Excellent engine!!!! I had one of these in a 2013 F150 with the externally driven water pump. 100,000 miles zero problem with the engine when i sold it.
Such a nice designed engine and then one bad idea. So sad.
I just did the water pump on my Grand Marquis recently and it was very easy to change. 4 bolts and an "o" ring and you are back in business. At 456,000 miles I figured it was time to change it even though it wasn't leaking. Great video!
Cool story bro
The 3.7 in my 2011 Mustang had over 335k on it when I gave it to my son down in TX. It's still running like a scalded dog.
Yeah they're good motors water pumps on the outside other then the internal crap models its like one of the best engines made.
I was a truck driver for 30yrs, I checked my fluids every time I got fuel. Now I'm a fleet manager, the fluids in my fleet of 50 units are checked once a week. Had the fluids in this car been checked they could have prevented this failure and saved tons of money. Checking fluids is more than just checking the engine oil. Brake fluid, power steering fluid, coolant, engine oil...check your fluids people.
My sons 3.7 mks milkshaked on expressway no warning, put a 70k motor back in, changed timing set and replaced water pump w/new OE ford one, ford recommends pump changed every 100k, old motor had 171k on it and I wasn’t aware pump was in crankcase, another ford oops! Retired 32y tech and have run into more ford oops then any other brands, love your content can’t wait to see what you find every Saturday! Looking possibly to making a offer on the complete LS you have for sale on evil bay for my 84 T/A just haven’t pulled the trigger would be a pic up I’m outside chicago
I love this engine in my 17 Taurus so much power…
I've been waiting for this one!!!! I daily drive a Taurus so this is my worst nightmare...
Been researching 3.7 F-150s and this is why I love this channel, in the first couple minutes you mention the F150/Mustang version of this engine is extremely reliable, used engines take forever to sell and the main difference is that external water pump that won't cause catastrophic failure. Love it.
That glued timing cover is the exact type of thing someone like a Chevy guy would complain about Ford doing cuz they wouldn't know about the extra threaded holes
Chevy glues their timing covers on as well. Like the 3.6. Like you mentioned though, they do not include the bolt holes to pop it off.
My grandpas 3.7 powered f150’s water pump shot shit when he was here in Kansas visiting from Texas. Got it replaced for him in about an hour, glad they decided to make them external otherwise he would have been in some trouble!
I’ve read and seen some other YT vids that suggest there was a change to the FWD 3.7L water pump in late 2015 that largely eliminates this problem. I’ve got a 2016 MKZ with the 3.7. It’s a terrific power plant, but I am very grateful for the suggestions for monitoring coolant and oil levels, and watching for foul smells and fluid/oil leaks under the car.
I haven’t worked on any of my vehicles since 1980. I had replaced the U-joints on a 1970 Chevrolet 4x4 pickup. I didn’t do it correctly and had the driveshaft fly off and ruin the headers,mufflers,and the shocks. One got caught up in the front end and the other did the same in the back. Cost me more in replacing everything that got destroyed than it would have if I had taken it to a mechanic to have it done properly. I learned my lesson. Haven’t done anything but add fluids since. Love your videos and your channel! Roger in Pierre South Dakota
I have a 2010 Ford fusion with the 3.5 and the water pump went at 120k ish miles. Had it fixed for a couple grand and still have the car today with 170k. Still runs strong. The engine has to come out to replace it.
To elaborate, mine popped and I caught it immediately, so I was lucky. As soon as it happened I had it towed to one shop and was quoted a stupid amount of money. So I had it towed to another shop that was more reasonable. I had all the primary timing components replaced and a few other things while it was out. I believe I had them do a new alternator just in case since they had it out.
Wife's 2018 3.5 explorer water pump went out. IF YOU HAVE COOLANT DRIPPING FROM THE A/C COMPRESSOR, TIME TO CHANGE THE WATER PUMP. Shops and the dealership quoted me $3-5k, it's a 13hr job. Did it myself, take your time, make sure hold the cams in place, change the oil 3 or 4 times after. The coolant dumps into the oil pan when you pull the pump.
He said. "Happy Birthday to the ground". I am dying laughing.
I picked up a certified pre owned 2018 explorer with one of these engines in it, unaware of the water pump in the timing cover issue. Thankfully I learned about it in time to purchase the ford extended warranty, so I've got coverage over this type of failure for a couple of years. Will definitely part with the truck once the warranty is gone.
Had the 3.5 in my '07 Edge. Not a bad engine. Everything else started falling apart. Body panel rust & the 6F50 transaxle shuddered terribly. Sold it for a 1000 bucks at 205K miles.
For an Edge, that ain’t bad.
I’ve had a ford Explorer PIU with the 3.7l and have our well over 100k on it and it’s been so reliable. Love it, had the waterpump replaced before hand and it’s been an amazing vehicle! 300 plus thousand kilometres and rising! Love it
Used to own an 09 Flex with the front drive version of the 3.5. Noticed a few drops of coolant on the garage floor. Called a Ford dealer to inquire about a water pump replacement, found out that Ford considered it part of the powertrain for warranty purposes. Dealer saved my butt AND my engine.
As much as I hate to say I told you so, especially for the poor person who had to buy a new engine, I posted that EXACT failure mode on the last video you did of that engine. Because of the position of the water pump, it is subjected to the full force of the engine. The water pump is a pivot point on the timing system. This is in contrast to something like a Nissan VQ35 where the water pump is also driven by the timing chain, but is not a pivot point. It's just an accessory.
For a little bonus content, take apart that water pump and you'll find the single bearing inside wholly inadequate to the task. And once the engine wears some slop into that bearing, the shaft seal is on borrowed time. The pump leaks right out the front and into the sump.
Bye bye bearings. If you look at buying a FWD Ford with a 3.5 or 3.7 and it's got VVT solenoid codes, RUN AWAY! The pump failed, dumped coolant into the oil pan and the oil system pumped it up through the motor.
That's a VERY good point about the single support bearing on the water pump shaft. Such a stupid design. It should have just been an external water pump driven on the serpentine belt.
I was wondering about that since I have a Maxima and know the pump is hiding in the engine, but haven’t heard much about them failing like these do.
@@life_of_riley88 and the shitty part is Ford knows its a problem. Aside from getting sued for it, they used the external water pump on the RWD versions in the F150, Mustang, etc. When the external one fails, you can see the drips on the ground and know to change it.
The internal one weeps right onto the side of the engine where it evaporates almost immediately. Unless of course the shaft seal fails, in which case you have no idea its leaking until it eats your bearings. The old Chrysler 2.7 V6 that did the same goddamn thing. The water pump dies, it pees its coolant into your oil pan and you buy a new motor. Ford had 20 years to learn to not do that.
@@DriveCarToBar Yeah, it's pretty sad. Ford at one time built some damn reliable engines(300-6 if you know about it at all) but it seems since around 2008 they've been doing some REALLY dumb stuff. Another good one is the Ecosport 1.0L engine with a "wet timing belt" that runs in engine oil 🤦 which has got to be the dumbest-assed idea for a car engine.
The Gallagher reference at the end got a hearty laugh from me, and some rather bemused memories of my youth from watching the guy on SHO. It was thanks to him I learned about Wall Street Week, ironically. Thanks Eric.
I agree with the post-mortem comment on the oil pump. It's possible that the "oil" had basically emulsified into grease, and the outer ring, as you said, developed way too much resistance to rotation - and the inner ring fragmented at is weak points. It's also possible that the emulsion's viscosity was so high that the oil pressure relief valve could not bypass enough to keep the head pressure on the pump under control, resulting in a near flid lock that caused the ring to fail. If I had to choose one scenario, I'd favor the latter as the explanation.
10:57 HE DID IT, He Finally went full Lonely Island. He does read my comments.
Found out about the water pump shortly after i bought my cx9 with the ford 3.7. I heard that coolant gets acidic over time so changing the coolant semi often might keep the water pump alive a bit longer
Keeping things clean/fresh always helps
Helps, but doesn’t fix
supposed to change coolant every 2-5 years
I have an mkx with this engine and now feel more knowledgeable knowing what to look for as an older shop owner now retired we had no experience with this engine love your videos better than tv
i like to think that this guy has a secret wall with all the timing chains, from every engine he has ever taken apart.
Would look more like a dungeon.
Surely he has a Ford 427? chain. 6 or 8 feet long. The racing engine, not consumer.
Complete with Gimp mask. 🤣
@@russellstyles5381 I was waiting for someone to bring up that chain. It was humungously long.
'Chucked' a rod.. very British haha, love the water pump disassembly routine! Great stuff, Eric.
Oil is about the same compressibility as water. Most liquids are considered incompressible
You are correct.
I suspect that oil pump broke due to lack of lubrication and/or thermal expansion.
We compress air and fuel bud. Oil needs viscosity and a decrease in viscosity during thermal endurance much more capable than water which turns into steam with heat unlike oil which smokes and burns.
@@jamesmedina2062 _"We compress air and fuel bud"_
We compress air and the fraction of fuel that ends up as vapor. We don't compress the atomised fuel.
But then you can easily freeze up liquid water, and then it is not a liquid at all, so pump can't move it with forces that it will be fine with. This failure looks like that case for me
@@ferrumignis they compress at gaseous form. Its not liquid oxygen right?? And its hopefully not liquid gasoline right?
A good day is a, I do Cars day. My old man was a car mechanic. I love the smell of a garage. Your videos gives me something i currently miss in my life. Thanks for bringing the garage into my life :)
I was in an accident and got trapped in a Mazda MX5.
All I could do was yell "Get Miata here!"
It is "I do cars" you are after the "I do dad jokes" page. Oh dear, that is pretty funny but...😂
Haha such a fitting joke for this channel
😂👍
It's a dad joke when it becomes apparent.
Those threaded screw holes are called push off screws, they have been around in the aviation/aerospace industry for a long time. It's too bad a reliable engine like this has such a simple weak spot. SMH. I really like that no mater how bad the engine you still remove bolts in the correct pattern. Kudos to you for this.
I’ll look forward to watching your videos every Saturday. My question is To U is when you’re describing a lot of your engines they seem to be a lot of defects. I was wondering if you would tell us what are your top five most reliable engines?
Yes, curious minds wish to know. Spend a few minutes in a video and give us your opinion, please., Eric.
I have a VQ35 Maxima and it has a water pump that runs off the timing chain. best way to prolong the life of a water pump is by changing the antifreeze
antifreeze has a lubricant in it that lubricates the water pump bearings. water pump failures are mainly due to bearing failure which leads to the shaft seal on the pump leaking also.
water pumps are a maint item, should not be such a pain to do the timing system in depth to change something that WILL fail on EVERY car.
It's been 29 years and my truck has never had a water pump put on it oddly enough. I had it off about a year ago to do the timing and never thought to replace it, because it didn't leak and never overheated.
@@rednecksnredlines What is the mileage?
Exactly. If it's behind a timing belt which is dry and going to get changed every 20k or so it's no biggie. If it leaks coolant it goes on your driveway and you know pretty quickly. Timing chains should last the life of the engine. I don't know of too many water pumps engineered to last 200k+
uh, ok. @@rednecksnredlines
@@LesSharp These engines have a passage the allows coolant leak onto the ground long before they leak internally.
Now it is a good Saturday night. Thank you
I have the 3.5 version is in my 2010 Ford Edge. I have 190k so far and it runs so well.
Better get to saving. Either for a new engine, a new vehicle or a repair.
Even my Ford Escort rusted away before the engine fell apart, I would save for a new Vehicle.@@RadDadisRad
Maybe so except I have the car serviced for that water pump at 120k among other major maintenance repairs. Also I have oil changed at every 5k and antifreeze at 60k intervals and transmission at 50k intervals. Yeah it is expensive maintenance but replacement engine and/or transmission cost more than that maintenance. I would not even buy a car newer than 2019 because most are overpriced and a lot worse built than my car.
@@kevincurry4735 all that maintenance does nothing to prevent that water pump from failing. I had a 2014 SHO, so basically same engine except direct injection and twin turbo. I sold it 2 months ago, only had 48,126 miles.
Kevin, Good to hear you actually do the proper preventative maintenance on your vehicle! People can't even check their oil🛢️nnowadays and expect it to go on forever & ever! It's ridiculous. Glad you take good care of it.👍👌🤔💪⚠️🛢️🤔🔧🔩🗜️⚡📏🚧🧰😄
We had a 2015 Maxda CX-9 AWD. The last year it had the v6. Ours made it barely past 83,000 miles. The check engine light came on and we drove it 80 miles before I got home and checked the code. The code indicated the camshaft and crankshaft were out of time. I drained the oil to inspect it. There was no signs of coolant but it did have a sparkly copper color on it. The coolant tank was normal. We called the Mazda dealership they told us to bring it in. We drove it les than 20 miles and the engine sounded like a can of marbles. The coolant reserve tank was empty and the dipstick had the milkshake look on it. We had the car towed to the dealer. Mazda replaced the engine under the certified pre owned warranty we bought it with. So if you think you can catch this by watching your coolant or your oil, you are wrong. In our case the check engine light came on and we had less than 100 miles before the engine was toast. We followed the manufacturers maintenance schedule and it still failed just past 83,000 miles. Ford has been making engines long enough to know better than to put the oil pump behind the timing cover.
Oil pump or water pump?
@blueplasma5589 I didn't get to see anything inside the engine. I asked the dealership about it. They said the waterpump failed. I have to wonder after seeing the video if the oil pump failed first. I saw copper glitter in the oil not coolant after the check engine light came on.
The rwd engines don't suffer from the water pump failure, but the channel plate that's inside, with the idler gear on it, leak coolant into the crankcase. The leakage is much slower, so the engines end up with heavy black sludge everywhere, as the coolant Ford has used in their products is similar to dexcool. That Mazda version, uses Asian dark green which doesn't do the black sludge, just the milk shake.
Dexcool, didn't you mean DexKill
My 17 Mustang’s water pump crapped out at 42K miles. I know a couple of people with 3.7 Mustangs and not one lasted more than 65K miles on the factory water pump.
Lost water pumps on two of these in Mustangs. Over 250,000 on one now with no other issues. The other reached 172000 with no other issues before an accident totaled it. Always use synthetic oil, best you can get. I will change the coolant in both before winter. Replaced the wrecked one with another.
Mississippi mud
Your disassembly and explanation is excellent. When I was deciding to buy a van which I needed for work, all videos of Ford transit 3.5 engines complained about the water pump being located internally. So I decided to buy a Chevy express instead. Since I could not find any Chevy vans in my area I was forced to take a chance and bought a Transit 150. To my surprise one day when I was checking the van all over and under as well, i noticed the external water. I was totally happy. No video had ever stated that the internal water pump ONLY applied to transverse mounted engines. You are the only mechanic of the many videos I watched that explained this. Keep up the great work.!
Don't worry. Transit has all kinds of goofy other issues.
Just so you know, water is no different than oil when it comes to hydraulics. Water may have caused the damage to that oil pump, but it would have been due to it's lack of lubricating values rather than it causing some kind of hydro-lock.
The extended ending with the water pump shaft "removal" was amazing!
The best practice for these seems to just plan to do the water pump every 100K-miles. That's my plan for hte 3.5L NA FWD in my 2013 Flex. This is one of the later model revisions as the water pump has a double chain. The earlier ones had a single chain sprocket and were very notorious for failed water pumps.
Good luck 😂
I have a 2013 Flex, with the NA 3.5 FWD. So far the entire car has been great. Is there any data that suggests this modification you mentioned results in fewer water pump failures? I hope so. Thanks for the info. about the modification, I had heard that there was a modification at one point but no one could tell me the year or what the mod was. Good luck with your Flex. I think they are really good cars overall.
Congrats, you DID make the good video you mentioned. I learned about a neat front cover removal method. Thanks to the professional mechanics who keep Eric updated! Also, I'll never buy a vehicle with an internal water pump.
My mom had a Lincoln MKT with this engine and the water pump failed but didn’t ruin the engine but the entire engine needed to come out and it was thousands for a water pump
Your videos are always great. I always find myself both entertained and educated. Who could ask for more? But then you had to go and attempt to disassemble that water pump... That was pure genius. That may have been the best TH-cam moment I have ever seen!!!
I highly recommend changing the sparkplugs before the gap gets that big. These engines tend to melt coils and take out the coil drivers in the ecm if you neglect the spark plugs for too long.
Ball park number of mile change?
@@watchmanonthewall14 I replaced the plugs and coil packs a few weeks ago on my Mustang. It was at about 117,000
@@myZcarlife Thanks.
@watchmanonthewall14 I personally wouldn't push it past 90 000 miles on a set of plugs. I would also pull one of the easy ones(front row) well before that just to keep an eye on the gap. We have a customer that didn't change the plugs until 160 000 miles and took out most of the coils as well as the ecm. We've also had a few cases where we got away with just changing plugs and a few melted coils and the ecm survived.
@@fourcam150 I'll tuck that info away. Thanks.
There is something satisfying about a nice, thick engine chain. I’m glad I’m not the only one.
Water pump behind the timing cover? That's the main reason I got rid of my '17 Nissan Frontier 4x4 pickup. Well, that and the fact that, when I moved to Indiana, it barely fit in my built-in-1931 house's driveway - never mind trying to put it in the garage. Putting a water pump inside the engine, has got to be one of the stupidest things a car company could do... until you realize that they can charge you a small fortune to replace it. Assuming that the engine hasn't self destructed when the damn thing fails... Gawd, I wish I had my '63 VW Beetle back...
I didn't know Nissan did that. Any idea if they still out the water pump inside on their new v6 frontier ?
Worst part is, that engine is clean inside and appears to have been well-maintained.
The coolant mixed with oil did the cleaning job. Unfortunatelly this mix doesn't make a good lubricant for the bearings and piston rings.
@@Tovvvija But it wasn't the owner's fault. Most of the blown engines we see here are because they didn't do the maintenance, but who could've prevented this disaster?
Those engine rarely have head gasket issues, Always water pump is the main failure.
How I saved my 07 Edge with 3.5 was it started to over heat pulled it over immediately shut it off.
Coolant bottle showed milkshake so I had it towed home 3 miles. Drained oil and changed oil filter, then filled it with 5 qts and new filter, removed fuel pump relay and cranked it over several times to circulate oil as to wash out bearings. Drained it again and did the same with 5 qts and new filter. Upon removal of valve covers and timing cover I drained the oil which came out pretty clean, poured 1 qt motor flush over front cams and valve train along with probably 3 cans brake clean to rinse and clean. Repeated for rear bank. Everything just rinsed out drain plug which also cleaned the oil pan out. replaced water pump with a Motorcraft, all new timing chains and guides, new phasers and VVT solenokids and oil pump. Lots of brake clean was used to clean oil pump passeges in block removed oil sender and sprayed in there. Once everything was clean I reassembled using the Motorcraft sealant for timing cover. Runs just like new, if you catch it right as it fails you can save the engine.
saved myself 2300.00 by doing the labor myself. Parts cost 1400.00.
That's okay if you like shortcuts.
Wife's Ford just cost us $14K at the dealership for engine replacement for this, 5 yr. old. 50k mi, 8 mo.s left on payments. Not an easy choice to make, 3 yr. unlimited warranty. Changed oil, monitored fluids religiously, I am old and retired. But w/ wife driving she does not understand the vigilance required when coolant temps start to increase barely, has been 100+ deg. outside. On the other hand I just replaced the water pump on my '95 F150 for < $100 because I noticed the rust on the weep hole, like you're supposed to be able to do - FORD!!!
Sorry to hear this, what a bad break.
@@hokie9910 Very kind of you, TY, best.
Even if you caught it (wp) before contacting the oil... The aluminum is an odd shape now, a new water pump won't work correctly, due to loss of fit. That tight fit is needed to 'pump' the water under pressure. The distance between the housing and the blade is a critical dimension.
Cramming the cack craps loose is often one of my favorite parts
😆😆😆😆
It's really too bad that Ford designed the FWD version of that engine like that because the RWD versions are ridiculously reliable, low maintenance, powerful engines!
They're excuse for it is because they didn't have enough room in front of the engine but they had already solved that problem with the older duratec's where they ran the water pump off of a belt on the back of the cylinder head.
Had a duratec 30 like that but I would have hated trying to get a puller in there to remove the pulley off the cam that blocked 3 of the bolts.
Can always go electric and mount externally in the engine bay....sub optimal sure but hell better than this
@@JamesLee-oe7mtor just add it into the accessory drive belt system. I've worked on plenty of Mercedes/Italian diesels that have an external water pump driven by the serpentine belt. Works great.
@@life_of_riley88 The reason Ford put the water pump inside the engine was because the engine bay was too tight to fit a water pump. Even if one were to add a water pump somewhere else, there's still the issue of the dual function of this water pump. It needs to be there for the timing chain to make the turn of the Vee.
@@karlschauff7989 Simple, just run an idler, and put the water pump OUTSIDE the crankcase.
Thanks, that oil pump failure was impressive.
Use full synthetic and change the coolant often in these engines and they will last a long time.
Such a good word of advise
nothing you said would have changed the outcome in this case...
Thanks for the information on these. I know what I'll never buy.
Suspect that a weekly oil check could have prevented this catastrophe. But, folks just don’t check oil much.
Or just look at the weep hole on the water pump regularly.
Be thankful that engine still has a dipstick. Many dont anymore.
You often can tell in a few different ways. It'll start to lose coolant from the drain they designed at a certain spot and eventually run hotter and hotter. Then if it fails here where the water pump bearing goes you start to get critical really quick. Not only mixing oil and coolant, oil dilution etc.. Also since it's driven off the same chain as timing it can throw time off. From what i found when one at work had the worst case scenario happen, needing to add coolant is usually the tipoff. If you start to feel any sort of rough idle or not running right shut that thing off right away. It was topped up with coolant and ran for a good amount of time before the engine basically had a death rattle and that was that.
Nope. Checked both regularly, no loss of coolant, not low on oil, nothing from weep hole; water pump just dumped all the coolant in the oil pan on my wife's commute to and from workin one day. No warning. Had it fixed. 2 weeks later we discovered a bearing had been ruined, and now the engine is toast.
It's too late by the time you get a milkshake in your oil.
8:30 ~ Love it. That is a very clean and direct to the point cam system going on there.
37:13 My line is....well, one of them...internal water pumps driven off timing equipment. Or, to be a bit more general, water pumps driving off the cam timing system in general, 'cause a lot of belted engines will drive their water pumps off the timing belt and it's not unheard of for a water pump to get bad bearings like this one did, strip the teeth off the belt, and snap it. On an interference engine that's game over just as it was for this ecoboost.
So yeah, for me, if the water pump is driven off the cam timing system, the engine's worthless.
Completely brilliant! Good job, well executed. I hope you tested that E-stop first though.
I am here for the failures.
Even oil/water mix has a certain amount of lubrication property... it seems more likely the bearing failute is due to lack of pressure due to the broken pump, rather than from lack of lube. The pump fracturing is almost certainly NOT caused by water being incompressible, as oil has the same properties, and you can make a water pump using similar method to oil pumps...more likely due to lack of lube, and maybe overheating from friction...
Should have designed a external grease port to the water pump bearing with a Zerk fitting.
loll
I hope this was sarcasm
Most of the water pump leaks are from the seal that mounts the water pump to the block.. It flattens out and leaks.
I have an Explorer with the 3.5 Duratec and I am WELL aware of this design flaw. I change the oil religiously every 5k and send a sample off for analysis - mostly to check for signs of coolant in the oil. Hoping when (not if) the water pump starts to fail, I’ll catch it early enough to prevent catastrophic damage and a huge repair bill. Hopefully…
Worth noting that the water pump weep hole also comes out behind the alternator, which in turn is above the ac compressor. Assuming the water pump weep hole never becomes packed with dirt, any trail of coolant could very easily go unnoticed.
I don’t see any reason why coolant in the oil would cause the oil pump gears to fail, as oil is a liquid just like water. I suspect they are simply just weak, as billet oil pump gears seem to be a common upgrade any time someone builds a late model Ford engine for performance use. I think that most of the bearing damage in this engine was from the oil pump failing, rather than the oil being ruined. Also noteworthy that there was no milkshake oozing out of the block where the oil filter housing bolts up. I suspect the oil pump failure and the subsequent racket just added to the noise this engine was already making do to the failing water pump.
I think this engine died of a sudden oil pump failure, while in the process of dying of an unrelated water pump failure.
37:51 the block would make a lovely coffee table. Crank would work for a fancy mailbox post.
Nissan has building V6 engines witn timing chain driven water pumps for almost 30 years! Water pumps rarely fail on Nissan V6 engines and almost never put water in oil pan. Ford design is absolute crap! No excuse & no possible reason to put customers through this stuff! Ford QUALITY is job NONE!
Water pumps fail on the VQ just as much as the ones here 😂😂 A water pump is a water pump bro, don't matter if it's made by Ford or Nissan they ALL fail at one point.
I well remember the 1960s you bought parts for the water pump then pressed it apart and fitted the new bearing, seal etc. The boss and I, under the Queensland Australia sun, pressing the Fordson tractor pump apart on the side of the road with a jack under the tractor front axle and the pump setup on a couple of ripper tynes. Them were the good ol days. Ted from down under.
We had a 2015 Mazda CX-9. Waterpump went out at 83,000 miles and took out the engine. Garbage design having I've waterpump inside the timing cover.
The 3.5 and 3.7 Duratecs from Ford have always perplexed me.
“Check this engine out! It’s reliable, smooth and powerful! Keep it maintained, and you’ll go well past 200k miles! It only has one minor flaw!”
“Oh, that flaw renders the entire engine fucked whenever it happens kthxbaiii”
That's were a car company puts a wear part when they know the engine won't even outlast it.
-good job Found On Road Dead 👌
Nissan does the same thing with the VQ V6
auntbarbs is the real mechanic, and really witty too, probably works at McDonalds
The weekend is complete now that I've watched you tear down an engine. Love the cyclone in my Mustang. Glad the rear drive models got the better water pump placement.. damn near bullet proof. I'll send this to my cousin who has a front drive Lincoln
Leave it to Ford to sabotage an otherwise stellar engine with one major fatal flaw that could’ve been easily avoided.
Leave it to ford to build a 60k dollar truck that leaks water and comes off the assembly line incomplete.
My wife's 09 3.5 Edge is now dumping coolant out of the water pump, but surprisingly no coolant in the oil. 150K miles. Too bad, because the Cyclone is a terrific engine otherwise. I know a guy with a Mustang (external pump on the RWD) who is turning low 12s with just a cold air intake, cat back, and tune. Does 30MPG on the highway.
Since the N/A 3.5 and 3.7 are so similar I always wondered if the 3.7 Rwd intake upper and lower would work on a 3.5 Fwd motor. This would open a world of performance options for the FWD Community and not just swapping in a 3.7
I saw a mustang that looked funkkky and it had the cyclone badging. I know nothing about this thing. I’m so happy to see a video about it now.