Pretty complex design for a very simple problem . All my vertical wind turbines self start with no problem. You've created a solution for a problem that doesn't exist.
Design flaw 1: less than 10 seconds in, and they say there's no blades. Yet each cylinder has a protrusion, ie: a "blade" lmao. The magus effect works off of smooth cylinders anyway so, Why the protusions? Also, the magus effect is inefficient as you have to generate energy to rotate the cylinders
The efficiency of the Magnus effect is not low, but humans have not found a reasonable way to use it. In addition, it doesn't matter whether there are protusions or not.
@SmartServo Nicely done. Do not put too much attention at all the harsh comments, people tend to be quite hostile to new and novel ideas, especially if they are complex projects. I have read your replies and you are clearly knowledgeable on the material. I would suggest further testing to reduce the input power requirements, while reducing/improving components use. I would suggest the use of air-bearings or magnetic bearings to reduce noise and frictional losses. I hope you continue further research. And if you ever need help, do not be afraid to ask me or other people in academia for advise.
Thank you for your advice and encouragement, which made me feel warm. I have made a bigger one of this type., which is only shown briefly @1:30 of this video => th-cam.com/video/9AdpggaOfF0/w-d-xo.html . and I found that there are several ways to improve the efficiency: (1)Reduce the inertia of the rotor. (2)Recycle the energy when the motor decelerates and supply it to the accelerating motor, (3) Increasing the lift-to -drag ratio of the rotor, I believe that when these are improved, at sufficient wind speeds this wind turbine can be used to generate electricity.
If i understand correct, this isn’t a turbine. A turbine harvests energy from fluid flow. This seems like using energy to spin the rotor. Im also confused on how the 3 motors driving the blades are being controlled/wired through the rotating body.
At 0:59, he is holding a part called a slip ring. It’s like a bearing, but allows electrical wiring to go through and spin with the bearing using brushes like a motor. A lot of thing that spin and use power use them. Like an amusement park ride that has lights on a spinning part.
The motor drives the rotor, and the rotation of the rotor causes the wind to generate torque (Magnus effect) to drive the main shaft. The rotor acts as a catalyst. Although it has not been proven that the energy output can be greater than the input, it is possible => smartservo.org/en/magnus-vawt-implement-en/ This video(th-cam.com/video/9AdpggaOfF0/w-d-xo.html)@1:31 shows a larger one running in a wind tunnel.
2 words, turbine engine. Which uses the airflow it compressed and ignited to drive the compressor section. Just correcting your turbine definition. A turbine can harvest power from a gas or a liquid. You're welcome.
I have wondered if three tall thin Savonious rotors in this configuration would work well in unison if they were geared to the armature and power was taken from the rotation of the armature. I think the gear ratio would be important. It seems like they should spin fast enough to create enough magnus effect to give the armature a torque advantage, yet not so fast as to wear out bearings, or create too much vibration. Their distance to each other would also seem critical and the frame that holds it all would need to be far enough away from the working parts to prevent interference. It doesn't seem like the Savonious rotors would need to be the twisted helical style because they would always be changing their location and three working together should cancel out the 'flap flap' of a single two sided rotor. There would probably be all sorts of variables to work out for maximum efficiency. If nothing else it would make a beautiful wind sculpture. I was thinking about this and looking up planetary gears when I found your video. Very interesting, good luck with your experiment.👍
Would inertia of the rotors wreck this if you tried to scale it up to a useful size? How much energy is required to reverse the rotors as compared with the potential generating capacity?
When the size of the wind turbine is enlarged, the rotation speed will also decrease. Therefore, the frequency of changing the direction of the rotor is also reduced. The method of improving efficiency can refer to => smartservo.org/en/magnus-vawt-implement-en/ ,before success, To start the Darrieus turbine is a reasonable work(see th-cam.com/video/9AdpggaOfF0/w-d-xo.html), when the rotation speed is fast enough, the motor can be stopped(@ 4:03) and no more energy is consumed.
Since each cylinder needs to reverse direction every half a revolution, none of the cylinders can get up to high enough rotation rate to generate a significant Magnus force. Any slight imbalance in the system will cause the turbine to spin if the bearings are good enough. As someone else mentioned, you need to measure the output torque and input energy to see if you're actually generating any energy. BTW, I think that Challenergy's wind turbine would spin even if they didn't spin the cylinders because of the vanes they put next to the cylinders.
The rotors of Challenergy's wind turbines still have to spin, they just don't have to change direction. Don't you think it's strange that the upwind and downwind torques don't cancel out? Is there such a perfect way in the world? Or is something sacrificed so that the rotors don't have to change direction? The real way to keep the rotor from spinning is to make good use of this much-criticized device =>(see th-cam.com/video/9AdpggaOfF0/w-d-xo.html),@ 4:03 when the rotation speed is fast enough, the rotors can be stopped and no more energy is consumed.Therefore, I don't have to rush to prove its efficiency.
There are 4 axes: The 3 cylinders and the big axle in the middle. The generator is the big axle having the wind rotate the whole thing, but for that the individual cylinders have to rotate around their axis and that's what the 3 motors are for.
How do you deliver the power and control signals to the small motors that are attached to the cylinders? Batteries somewhere in there and a wireless control signal?
I think ZEUS has a point. The rotors changing spin direction at such high frequency would likely consume a lot of electricity and also stress everything to the point of breakage. I would just ditch the magnus effect and use a simple propeller or vertical wind turbine, with blades that changes orientation all the way to zero power, to prevent overspeed, and reduce power production when it isn't needed.
When the radius of the turbine becomes larger, the rotational speed decreases naturally and the rotor does not have to change direction frequently. The blades that changes orientation are what's called "active pitch control",which may be too complicated for ordinary people to implement. The pitch is also driven by a motor, which is difficult to drive directly due to the weight of the blades. Therefore, the transmission mechanism and gearbox should be unavoidable and easily lead to failure. However, the Magnus rotor can achieve required lift by increasing the rotation speed, unlike the blade that needs to increase the surface area, so the rotor is lighter and easier to integrate with the motor to achieve direct drive, making the structure more reliable. In addition,for active pitch control, the chord must be constantly changing with the relative wind direction to maintain the correct angle of attack(AOA), which requires a closed-loop servo system to precisely control the position, which is more complicated. On the contrary, using Magnus rotor only needs to do open-loop speed control, controlling the rotor’s position is not necessary, which is much simpler.
I have built vertical access wind turbines for over 50 years á a hobby. You guys missed it big time. The symmetrical-section wings are for leverage only. Speed as well as power is controlled by the length of the moment arm. I start mine with a flow of compressed air against what is basically a Pelton wheel at the base of the windmill. Once the blades are up to approximately three times the speed of the wind, it takes over and spins like a top. In fact, it's hard to slow down even shorting out the generator or applying the brakes. I live in Texas and the wind is very strong here.
The Darrieus wind turbine does have the problem of overspeeding when encountering strong winds, and it has not been effectively solved. Therefore, some designs use multiple blades (large solidity) to reduce the speed, but it also leads to low efficiency. not a good idea. The work of the VAWT has not been completed yet ...
The two Pac Wind VAWTs in my neighborhood blew apart in the same storm 10 years ago. One was the real big model and it just blew apart. The guy spent a fortune on it even the pole in the ground was really expensive because it was so big and so thick and had such a large concrete base.
You have a static start mechanism but you have failed to compute the actual wind direction in relation to the centre of each roller. very different phase angles needed . So take the phase angle from the centre of each roller and a wind vane on each roller . Then watch it fly
The phase of the rotor is not determined by the mechanism, but set by software. The encoder under the main shaft can detect the position of the rotor, and with the anemometer(Not necessary for wind tunnels), the angle between the wind and the rotor can be calculated. The software then add an offset to each rotor.
It likely produces much less energy than it takes to run. The arduino is powering the rotation of the cylinders, which also requires even more energy to reverse the cylinder rotation half way through the rotation of the whole turbine. It's nifty demonstration of the Magnus effect, but isn't a generator by any means because it is constantly working against itself with reversing the rotation of the cylinders, plus the significant extra friction from all the bearings. The magnus effect is a very light force compared to just the direct force of the wind captured by a blade passively in a traditional turbine. So it's putting in more energy to rotate the cylinders for less rotational energy captured by the wind. Easiest way to think of it, for as fast as the demonstration was rotating, putting a similar scale blade turbine in front of that fan would be spinning much faster passively.
I have only read 3/4 of all comment and I'm impress by how you managed to answer them all.. I wish you were an AI.. keep doing what you're doing you inspired me who has probably 2 digit IQ.. sincerely i wish I my TH-cam feed would be filled with stuff like yours!
Thank you for your comments, also inspires me, I think TH-cam is a good platform to show your work and communicate with people all over the world. If you have a good idea, don't bury it.
@@magnuswright5572 This device is too small and can only rotate slightly in a breeze of about 1m/sec, not suitable for measuring power. If you want to measure the efficiency of a wind turbine, you can use the torque mode of a servo motor. Set a torque (as a load) at a given wind speed, then observe the rotational speed of the wind turbine and record it. Then increase the torque and observe the rotational speed (it should be decreased) again, repeating these steps to get the torque curve of the wind turbine, multiply the torque by the rotation speed is the power. Therefore, the power curve can also be obtained.
If you need the windward and wayward sides to be rotating in opposite directions then you would need 4 cylinders. With 3 cylinders the phase is off kilter for part of the time. Actually, it doesn't matter how many cylinders you have because each cylinder will be fighting against the desired rotation for half of it's revolution. Ok I watched another video where the cylinders are unpowered. Now it makes sense that there are 3 cylinders. 4 would get stuck in place. I guess with yours there's some kind of interference for 1/3 of the time.
there is one full scale of these wind turbine that was already built and tested I think the problem was too much maintenance on all the movings parts vs regular direct shaft wind turbine
If you're talking about turbines made by a Japanese company (Challenergy), there's something different. They added a plate behind the rotor to shield the Magnus force downwind so that the motor didn't have to reverse, but it also lost some lift. What this video shows is the original untouched concept of Magnus VAWT. Although there are many problems, it could trigger some imagination => th-cam.com/video/9AdpggaOfF0/w-d-xo.html
good prototyping skills but little physics concept, many people think magnus effect could be used for vertical wind because it is cool. think of the magnus effect of transforming a cylinder into an airplane wing, or in a wind turbine the blades. you could get the same effect or even better power if these were simply vertical wind blades. of course, vertical wind turbines is not easy as simply vertical blades.
While Magnus rotors have had some problems with vertical wind turbines, all other approaches have not been successful, otherwise they should be everywhere like HAWT.
If i understand it correctly, you are driving the cylinders with a motor, in order to gain extra wind energy by the blowing wind and the magnus effect, correct? Now will it be higher than the energy required to make the rotors turn, and moreover: will it be more efficient as a regular vertical blade turbine? Nice proof of concept anyway!! I am really curious about the efficiency results, assuming you will try to find those out.
The Darrieus type is the most efficient vertical axis wind turbine, but it was not used successfully due to many unsolved problems such as poor starting ability ,dynamic stall and overspeed in high winds, while the Magnus type is easier. Therefore, if the energy consumption of the rotor can be minimized and the efficiency of the Magnus-type turbine can be improved, this may be a good VAWT solution (more info=> smartservo.org/en/magnus-vawt-implement-en/), in addition, the Magnus rotor can also help Darrieus turbine to start easily.=>th-cam.com/video/9AdpggaOfF0/w-d-xo.html
Would have been nice to see it turned on before the fan. Willing to bet a large portion of the rotational speed has a lot to do with imparted energy from the motors spinning the cylinders. Could be wrong about that, but there is definitely a need for them to show the difference between the fan being on and off Edit: grammar errors
The motor drives the rotor, and the rotation of the rotor induces the wind to generate torque(by Magnus effect) to drive the main shaft. If the fan is not turned on, the main shaft cannot rotate.
@@SmartServo_org I'm aware of how the Magnus effect works, I'm just suggesting that maybe not all of the initial speed is caused by the Magnus effect alone.
This is an interesting thought. I made an odd sculpture where angular momentum was transferred to different parts just by the overall rotation of the whole. I wasn’t expecting it, but it was quite cool. Certainly the angular momentum of the rotors has to go somewhere when they reverse.
@@danajohnson5993 Because each rotor rotates at a different speed and direction, for example, when one rotor is accelerating, the other rotors are decelerating, and the changes in angular momentum may cancel out.
It sis an interesting demonstration of the magnus effect, but as a wind turbine, I wonder if it is any better than replacing all the wind-catching stuff with a planetary gear set. You are putting energy into rotating the cylinders to get energy out of the turbine. Too me that seems suspiciously like blowing into the sail of your own ship.
Thanks for your opinion. The motor drives the rotor, and the rotation of the rotor causes the wind to generate torque (Magnus effect) to drive the main shaft. The rotor acts as a catalyst. The energy consumption of driving the rotor is not large. It only needs to overcome the viscosity of the fluid , the friction of the bearing and motor, which is less than directly driving the whole turbine. Although it has not been proven that the energy output can be greater than the input, i think it is possible => smartservo.org/en/magnus-vawt-implement-en/
Hello. Pretty amazing concept! If I want to build one, what 3D printing materials would you recommend? Can you advise on the what electrical components I could use ?
In my project I used PLA as my 3D printing material, but after about 1 year it has been bent due to the weight of the motor. Maybe ABS with better mechanical strength is more suitable for this, but still not suitable for large models, and ABS requires more 3D printing skills. The electronic components I use are Arduino UNO controller board, L298 DC motor driver board x3 and optocoupler modules x3.
Although the (Darrieus) turbine using blades is highly efficient, it is difficult to self-start. When combined with this device, it can take into account both efficiency and start-up. => th-cam.com/video/9AdpggaOfF0/w-d-xo.html
i wonder if it can work mechanically like put horizontal wheels on the bottom of the “blades” and have a inner and have a outer half ring under the turbine. if the wheel touches the outer ring it will rotate the other direction compared to the inner ring. it could even be made more fancy, by using conical wheels you can move the ring up and down to increase or decrease the number of rations of the “blades” make per revolution and by rotating the rings you can ajust for the wind angel
If you are interested, you can read this patent (US4446379) to know how people in the past solved this problem mechanically. Fortunately, there are more technologies available in this era. By the way, your method is also very clever.
Leider muss bei dem Konzept die Drehrichtung pro Umdrehung umgekehrt werden. Das erfordert je nach Masse der Rollen viel Energie. War bei dem Modell ein windrichtungsdetektor eingebunden? Interessanter Versuch jedenfalls...
Hey, could you please direct me to a page with details on how to make this, if you used any sources? I want to try making something like this, as my first real project.
If you put a stator in each of the cylinders with a magnet, then each cylinder could generate electricity along with the arms that hold them out. And it could be sent via wireless electromagnetic induction of a unique transformer in the center of the vertical shaft where it all comes together to avoid twisting up the wires as the whole thing spins around that central axis.
@@GoldenAdhesive My idea would use the mechanical input of wind to turn a brushless motor for electrostatic output. It would not experience a reduction of "power," because technically electrostatic charge isn't a thermal effect. It can create heat in the form of voltage/electricity when inducted with a transformer though, and that's what I'm suggesting.
@@GoldenAdhesive I think he just used the electric fan to simulate wind. If his cylinders are actually very sensitive to wind, then they'd be great for generating their own charges that could be combined in the central vertical shaft/housing via a transformer.
@@davidt1621 check out his other videos he has intentionally mounted small motors to the bottom of the cylinders to turn them in opposing directions when required. He also provides a valid application for it.
A motor drives a rotor, and the rotation of the rotor induces the wind power to generate torque to drive a generator. The rotor acts as a catalyst. Although it has not been proven that the energy output can be greater than the input, it is not impossible => smartservo.org/en/magnus-vawt-implement-en/
Ermmm...A fake volcano for a science project using baking soda and vinegar. What's the point, why don't you use real lava? It's a tabletop demonstration to explain the physics behind wind energy.
Hi ! We are two french students and we are leading some research and experiments on magnus effect wind turbines. We would like to build it ourselves to test it with different parameters. Is it possible to have more details on the construction of this turbine (especially on motors) ?
@@SmartServo_org Hello again ! We've been going through the documents filed under the video but we still have some questions left. How did you build the gear reducer (or did you buy it ? what type is it ?) ? How does the tachometer work exactly ? And what is the purpose of the Arduino card, does it only receive information or also control the motors ?
@@EliseVeyrat you can get the gear box on amazon by searching"gear box arduino",To avoid too large a gear ratio to reduce the speed, 20 is a good choice. Since the rotor should rotate in opposite directions on the windward and leeward sides, the Arduino controls the speed and direction of the 3 motors according the azimuth sensor below the main shaft.As can be seen, two semi-circular plates are arranged at 90 degrees apart to divide a plane into 4 quadrants. at power up ,guessing at the center of the quadrant make the error less than +/- 45 degree which is small enough to drive the rotor in the right direction. when the main shaft rotates through the quadrants, the correct azimuth can be found. then count the pulse from the third plate with 40 holes on it to get the real time precise azimuth.
I would like to give you some advice to improve the system. If you replace the rotor cylinders with a succession of discs (Tesla turbine rotor), the friction with the air will increase and with it the speed of rotation of the main rotor of your system. Cheers!
i assume its meant to generate rotational energy for ships or as they said, VAWTs (Vertical Axis Wind Turbines) but i doubt that the amount of energy harnessed is more than it takes to drive the drums, or is less than a normal Magnus turbine or HAWT.
The original purpose of this windmill is to generate electricity. Obviously, the problem it must overcome is that the energy generated must be greater than the energy consumed. The main solutions are: 1, increase the efficiency of the rotor, >>Increase aspect ratio (slim and long) to improve lift-drag ratio. 2, reduce the energy consumption of the motor >> reduce the mass of the rotor to make the inertia lighter >>Recycle the energy when the motor decelerates and reuse it With these improvements, I believe that net energy output can be achieved above a certain wind speed.
@@SmartServo_org And when you use more than 3 of these "white thingies" ( do not know the english term) ? Do you get more rpms? And/or with longer ones?
Now let get to the main goal of this device: 'wind turbine' to generate energy. 1. all power input into make the device spin in the wind will greatly negate any potential power it generated. 2. with the complexity of the mechanism, in practice, this device is prone to failure very quickly 3. by using 3 brushed motors as a mean to spin it, the rsult is quicker to failure due to burntout brushes. if brushless motors are being used, they are expensive and added more complexity to the device. Good try for demo though.
Thanks for your comment, let me explain your doubts： 1, Although it takes energy to rotate the cylinder, there are still ways to minimize energy consumption, see => smartservo.org/en/magnus-vawt-implement-en/ And don't forget that wind energy is proportional to the cube of wind speed. When the wind is strong enough, a net energy is produced. 2, The mechanism was chosen for this project simply because it was cheap. A set of DC motors and gearboxes cost less than $2 USD. Direct drive is also possible to eliminate the need for a gearbox to reduce complexity. => th-cam.com/video/XmZwYpoKQ8Y/w-d-xo.htmlsi=CRQ2mNfxw8CiiLoG&t=97 3, Due to the advancement of new motor technology, brushless motors are widely used in drones and remote control aircraft, which are reliable and cheap and suitable for our use.
The reason traditional lift-type VAWTs worry about changes in wind speed is that the angle of attack(related to TSR) will be affected and possibly cause a stall. Magnus rotor is immune to wind speed changes, because the circular rotor has no chord, so there is no angle of attack, and no stall problem.
To start the Darrieus turbine is a reasonable application(see th-cam.com/video/9AdpggaOfF0/w-d-xo.html), when the rotation speed is fast enough, the motor can be stopped(@ 4:03) and no more energy is consumed. and the vertical axis wind turbine has low noise.
No, I wasn't the first to think of this method, it's just that people in the past didn't have the help of modern technology (MCU, motor & drivers) to make it easy to implement. The new idea I came up with is => th-cam.com/video/9AdpggaOfF0/w-d-xo.html
This will be a high maintenance system because as the blades reverse direction they come to a complete stop then accelerate again. This will produce massive wear in the blade shaft bearings.
The acceleration and deceleration of the rotor will not cause bearing damage, it is caused by stress. Moreover, when the size of the wind turbine becomes larger, the rotation speed can be reduced, and the frequency of acceleration and deceleration is naturally reduced.
Not yet, but since the wind energy increases with the third power of the wind speed, as long as the wind speed increases and the energy consumption of the rotors are improved, it can be achieved. refer to => smartservo.org/en/magnus-vawt-implement-en/
There is a Japanese company that is working onmaking full scale versions of these. The big selling point is they can work even in violent storm winds, such as hurricanes and typhoons
@@alantupper4106 The wind turbine in this video is still different from that of the Japanese company you mentioned (it should be Challenergy). It installs a flat plate behind each rotor to cover the wind from the leeward side, so that the rotor only needs to maintain the same speed without changing direction.Although easier to control, it uses only half of the Magnus lift.
@@SmartServo_org But if you constantly change the direction of the leeward-side-rotor, you get a problem with exotic materials, that would be needed, since in such a case, the rotors have to have marginal rotational inertia, in order to speed-up and slow-down constantly. I think the japanese approach is better. Use only the half the magnus-effect, but avoid using high-tech-material-rotors (rotors made out of materials that don´t even exist yet). I thought it´s crazy when I saw it, and I thought, that if there were a way to avoid the change-of-direction, it then would be a great idea, and now you tell me that this already exists, in Japan. Build your rotors hollow, with stable spokes/beams leading to the rotors´s shell.
@@klausbrinck2137 Is it a good idea to sacrifice half of the Magnus effect for the motor not to have to change direction? Seems too optimistic until knowing how efficient it is.In addition, motors that rotate in one direction are not as good as motors that do not need to rotate.It's not too late to judge after seeing this idea=> th-cam.com/video/9AdpggaOfF0/w-d-xo.html
For this device to be meaningful, it must first solve the problem of energy consumption. Before that, combining it with lift blades may be a way to create value in the short term. Please refer to =>th-cam.com/video/9AdpggaOfF0/w-d-xo.html
@@SmartServo_org why does it need energy? Do you really have to spin the columns manually ? Wouldn't just using the column spin to generate energy work? use the back-EMF to control the rotation, you would only need energy to start it. Nevertheless nice idea, but too many moving parts.
Don't worry about motors, they are also present in popular horizontal wind turbines for pitch control. What important is that the energy harvested from the air is greater than the energy consumed, even if this device is questionable, it is still possible => smartservo.org/en/magnus-vawt-implement-en/
How fast does the CW-to-CCW change take place? (e.g. from 100rpm CCW to 100 rpm CW, like from zero to 200 rpm in about nanoseconds? And what kind of motor can do that?)
@@SmartServo_org I must have missed something. I do see in your other vid and I understand that the rotation changes direction when between leeward and windward . But how fast can that be done? (I know it may also depend on the moment of inertia of the rotor. E.g. would they be built out of lead, I cant see how a small motor could do the direction changes.) Nevertheless, your project is very inspiring, so keep up the good experimentation.
@@SmartServo_org Thanks. I think, overcoming inertia when reversing the direction of rotation of the cylinders must bring down the efficiency of this device severely.
@@SmartServo_org At this would be better to apply the "pendulum principle". Take such a pendulum at an ancient clock. It is a machine that performs a regular opposite movements, but with an absolute minimum of energy. So, install a spring or a piece of rubber coil into the Flettner cylinder, which mostly uses the energy to rotate the cylinder in the opposite direction. It is also a question whether it would not be an advantage to reduce the number of Flettner cylinders to an even number. This would make it possible to mechanically link the drive of the opposite cylinders and then maybe figure out some mechanically elegant way to use the already unnecessary kinetic energy of the opposite cylinder to reverse the rotation. This type of turbine simply stands and falls on how efficiently it is possible to recover the kinetic energy of those cylinders during their commutation. So far you are at "minus 100%" currently. :) Unfortunately. So in terms of overall efficiency, it sucks. The speed and direction of rotation of the cylinders should copy an ideal sinusoidal curve when projected onto the graph, logically. With such a course of rotation speed, the maximum efficiency of this device will be.
I think cylindrical rotors are easier to manufacture than normal blades with curved surfaces. If the rotor is made soft and hollow, it will naturally form a cylindrical shape as long as it is inflated.
Maybe you're talking about a turbine made by a Japanese company (Challenergy), still a little different. They added a plate behind the rotor to mask the Magnus force on the leeward side so the motor didn't have to reverse, but it also lost some lift. This video shows the Magnus VAWT in its original concept.
@@praveenb9048 I presume that this system is working without human intervention. So how the wind turbine knows if there's a wind blowing? The electricity is produced by center axis spin by magnus effect produced from 3 rotating "blades"
Yes, I'm assuming that some kind of smart controller would be used. For example, if the wind is to strong the controller would have to reduce the rotor speed to avoid damaging the mechanical and electrical elements.
Wait if than spin need electric i think is not turbine, turbine is no need electric 🤔, but if electric production higher than consumption maybe is good to
Although it has not been proven that the energy output can be greater than the input, it is possible => smartservo.org/en/magnus-vawt-implement-en/ before that, To start the Darrieus turbine is a reasonable work(see th-cam.com/video/9AdpggaOfF0/w-d-xo.html), when the rotation speed is fast enough, the motor can be stopped(@ 4:03) and no more energy is consumed.
How much of movement is coming from the fan, and how much from the DC motors spinning the drums? Technically just running on the DC motors the wind turbine will still move without wind. Your goal should able do this without the DC motors with some gear train on the central hub going out to each drum.
The energy consumption of driving the rotor to generate Magnus lift is not large. It only needs to overcome the viscosity of the fluid and the friction force of the bearing, which is lower than the energy consumption of directly driving the whole windmill because the wind energy is used. The method of improving the efficiency can refer to => smartservo.org/en/magnus-vawt-implement-en/
Without wind it cannot start spinning relying on the Magnus effect. If it is already in motion it will have the Magnus effect but I think the force will be directed inwards or outwards without contributing to the rotation
Thanks for your comment, I made a bigger one with slim rotors to reduce inertia and drag, if you are interested you can refer to the video @ 1:31 =>th-cam.com/video/9AdpggaOfF0/w-d-xo.html
Of course, this video( th-cam.com/video/9AdpggaOfF0/w-d-xo.html ) shows a second version using BLDC motors. It is used to start the Darrieus turbine, when the rotation speed is fast enough, the motor can be stopped(@ 4:03) and no more energy is consumed.
And in an open air situation. The wind is non-controlable. As the fan had to be adjusted for results. Open air wind can not be adjusted. A fan has a tunnel effect needed for this turbine to work.
Simply using a fan is different from a wind tunnel, and there will be no wind tunnel effect. Also, the Magnus effect works both in the wind tunnel and outdoors, just like Messi can kick a banana ball without being in a wind tunnel.
If you're asking about efficiency, further experimentation is required. I've only verified so far that it can exceed TSR 2, Limited by motor response and rotor lift-to-drag ratio, but already faster than many common VAWTs.
the strip on the cylinder presents the force for cylinder's rotation, then causes outer turbine rotating. you can compare the rotation speed difference between with and without the strips. and you can test by using the cylinder with very smooth surface such as thin foil
Decades ago, people tried to use Magnus rotor to build aircraft, but for many reasons, it failed. In theory, the rotor's lift-drag ratio is not as large as that of fixed-wing, but the lift coefficient is large. Therefore, The speed of the Magnus aircraft is between that of a fixed-wing aircraft and a helicopter. But it can take off and land at short distances, and it still has its value.
*All practical tests of ground-based small wind turbines show: 1) They hardly produce any electricity! 2) They do not last long!* Wind/electricity yield increases with the third power of the wind speed.+ 100% wind = 800% +electricity. Close to the ground, however, 0 constant wind, but intensive gusts. Therefore 9 out of 10 small wind turbines stop working after just a few years due to the extremely gusty winds close to ground. *On the other hand, solar panels generate at least 10 times more electricity with the same investment!* Reliable and almost maintenance-free for at least 25 years!
The materials are not expensive, mainly include Arduino UNO(10 USD), L298 DC motor Driver(2.5 USD) x3, motor & Gear box(2 USD) x3, Slip ring(10 USD), optocoupler module(2 USD) )x3, the most expensive part is three acrylic circular plates (made to order) which cost about 40 USD
There is absolutely NO advantage to having a vertical axis and many disadvantages. Even with ideal hypothetical conditions, the cylinders would produce thrust in only a narrow section of the leading windward and trailing leeward sides, while the neutral left and right sides produce nothing. Needing to suddenly reverse direction of spin every time a cylinder goes from windward to leeward is asking for broken equipment. If you're going to use the magnus effect, it's far more efficient and practical to use a horizontal axis with spinning cylinders replacing the blades of a standard wind turbine. Then the cylinders can always spin in the same direction and always extract power 360° of rotation.
The structure of the horizontal axis Magnus wind turbine is too complicated.The motor and generator form a concentric shaft to connect to the hub. The motor drives each rotor through a planetary gear system. The rotor is a rotating cantilever beam that puts a lot of bending stress on the hub.A yaw device is also required. These complex mechanisms are not only expensive but also detrimental to efficiency, not to mention reliability. The vertical axis type is instead simple.
You are right, but even Darrieus wind turbines have no moving parts other than the main shaft and have not been used successfully. Sometimes compromises must be made in exchange for benefits. Rotational motion is not all detrimental unless there are (1) heavy loads (2) gearboxes (3) cantilevered construction, which are not present in the project of this video when using direct drive.
"Less" is used for amounts, e.g kilograms, litres, gallons, pounds. "Moving parts" is a number e.g. 3,4, a dozen moving parts. Hence, *"The fewer moving parts, the better"....because correct English makes you sound more educated & adds credibility to your statements.
@@topspeed250k5 ok and your point is I’m not writing a dissertation sir or mam, I can care less what u or the rest of the 8 billion on this planet think. Nobody listens to me anyways, education doesn’t mean your smart people like Tesla and Einstein will confirm that. It’s having vision. So what I said was right you made it into a cluster duck
…to sprockets on the rotors and one on the center so rotating the rotor frame causes the rotors to spin. You could use a self starting rotor like Slavonic’s attached to the three arm frame to get it going when the main rotors would take it from there. Early Darius rotors used this method.
magnus effect pull perpendicular at vector of wind! your experiment is wrong, you need to make propeller and instead of blades put there rotating cylinders.
@@SmartServo_org he means of you connect the cylinders directly to the central blue hub and have them each rotate in the same direction it would work better.
This is just a concept test, if you want to test the efficiency, the optimization process should be implemented first, you can refer to the article for more information => smartservo.org/en/magnus-vawt-implement-en/
Pretty complex design for a very simple problem . All my vertical wind turbines self start with no problem. You've created a solution for a problem that doesn't exist.
Currently, lift-type vertical axis wind turbines are started at the expense of reduced efficiency or increased complexity(cost).
Design flaw 1: less than 10 seconds in, and they say there's no blades. Yet each cylinder has a protrusion, ie: a "blade" lmao. The magus effect works off of smooth cylinders anyway so, Why the protusions? Also, the magus effect is inefficient as you have to generate energy to rotate the cylinders
Have you ever seen what happens when a turbine is overdriven due to excessive winds? Speed control could be of use in such conditions.
The efficiency of the Magnus effect is not low, but humans have not found a reasonable way to use it. In addition, it doesn't matter whether there are protusions or not.
6
@@SmartServo_org have you tested protrusion depth and/or angles to see efficiency data at various speeds? Hook up to a generator?
If it works _off of_ smooth cylinders, then what does it work based *ON?*
@SmartServo Nicely done. Do not put too much attention at all the harsh comments, people tend to be quite hostile to new and novel ideas, especially if they are complex projects. I have read your replies and you are clearly knowledgeable on the material. I would suggest further testing to reduce the input power requirements, while reducing/improving components use. I would suggest the use of air-bearings or magnetic bearings to reduce noise and frictional losses. I hope you continue further research. And if you ever need help, do not be afraid to ask me or other people in academia for advise.
Thank you for your advice and encouragement, which made me feel warm. I have made a bigger one of this type., which is only shown briefly @1:30 of this video => th-cam.com/video/9AdpggaOfF0/w-d-xo.html .
and I found that there are several ways to improve the efficiency: (1)Reduce the inertia of the rotor. (2)Recycle the energy when the motor decelerates and supply it to the accelerating motor, (3) Increasing the lift-to -drag ratio of the rotor, I believe that when these are improved, at sufficient wind speeds this wind turbine can be used to generate electricity.
Two thumbs up, and full speed ahead, Jehovah bless.😊
If i understand correct, this isn’t a turbine. A turbine harvests energy from fluid flow. This seems like using energy to spin the rotor. Im also confused on how the 3 motors driving the blades are being controlled/wired through the rotating body.
At 0:59, he is holding a part called a slip ring. It’s like a bearing, but allows electrical wiring to go through and spin with the bearing using brushes like a motor. A lot of thing that spin and use power use them. Like an amusement park ride that has lights on a spinning part.
Since no windflow in the room, he simulates it with help of electric fan. Different case if he runs it outside
@@gargantuationex1120 i understand that, but each tube has a gear motor attached to it. It looks like the tubes are driven, not blown
The motor drives the rotor, and the rotation of the rotor causes the wind to generate torque (Magnus effect) to drive the main shaft. The rotor acts as a catalyst. Although it has not been proven that the energy output can be greater than the input, it is possible => smartservo.org/en/magnus-vawt-implement-en/
This video(th-cam.com/video/9AdpggaOfF0/w-d-xo.html)@1:31 shows a larger one running in a wind tunnel.
2 words, turbine engine. Which uses the airflow it compressed and ignited to drive the compressor section. Just correcting your turbine definition. A turbine can harvest power from a gas or a liquid. You're welcome.
Lovely work and experiment. Nice to see how you prepared everything and that you made it ready to collect and analyse lot of data.
Thank you for watching and agreeing
Profesionalna robota, profesjonalne badania. 👍👏
thanks
I have wondered if three tall thin Savonious rotors in this configuration would work well in unison if they were geared to the armature and power was taken from the rotation of the armature. I think the gear ratio would be important. It seems like they should spin fast enough to create enough magnus effect to give the armature a torque advantage, yet not so fast as to wear out bearings, or create too much vibration. Their distance to each other would also seem critical and the frame that holds it all would need to be far enough away from the working parts to prevent interference. It doesn't seem like the Savonious rotors would need to be the twisted helical style because they would always be changing their location and three working together should cancel out the 'flap flap' of a single two sided rotor. There would probably be all sorts of variables to work out for maximum efficiency. If nothing else it would make a beautiful wind sculpture. I was thinking about this and looking up planetary gears when I found your video. Very interesting, good luck with your experiment.👍
Thanks for your comment, I think we are using very different approaches, but good luck anyway.
Would inertia of the rotors wreck this if you tried to scale it up to a useful size?
How much energy is required to reverse the rotors as compared with the potential generating capacity?
When the size of the wind turbine is enlarged, the rotation speed will also decrease. Therefore, the frequency of changing the direction of the rotor is also reduced. The method of improving efficiency can refer to => smartservo.org/en/magnus-vawt-implement-en/ ,before success, To start the Darrieus turbine is a reasonable work(see th-cam.com/video/9AdpggaOfF0/w-d-xo.html), when the rotation speed is fast enough, the motor can be stopped(@ 4:03) and no more energy is consumed.
Since each cylinder needs to reverse direction every half a revolution, none of the cylinders can get up to high enough rotation rate to generate a significant Magnus force. Any slight imbalance in the system will cause the turbine to spin if the bearings are good enough. As someone else mentioned, you need to measure the output torque and input energy to see if you're actually generating any energy. BTW, I think that Challenergy's wind turbine would spin even if they didn't spin the cylinders because of the vanes they put next to the cylinders.
The rotors of Challenergy's wind turbines still have to spin, they just don't have to change direction. Don't you think it's strange that the upwind and downwind torques don't cancel out? Is there such a perfect way in the world? Or is something sacrificed so that the rotors don't have to change direction? The real way to keep the rotor from spinning is to make good use of this much-criticized device =>(see th-cam.com/video/9AdpggaOfF0/w-d-xo.html),@ 4:03 when the rotation speed is fast enough, the rotors can be stopped and no more energy is consumed.Therefore, I don't have to rush to prove its efficiency.
I don’t get what the fan is used for if the motors are making the whole thing rotate?
The Magnus effect on the rotating cylinders is making them travel upwind.
@@alanhat5252 I’m sorry but my brain must be smaller then I expected . I STILL DO NOT GET IT lol
There are 4 axes: The 3 cylinders and the big axle in the middle. The generator is the big axle having the wind rotate the whole thing, but for that the individual cylinders have to rotate around their axis and that's what the 3 motors are for.
@@DiThi thanks for that. I get it now! 👏🏽👏🏽
The fan is to simulate the natural wind that might power such a device.
How do you deliver the power and control signals to the small motors that are attached to the cylinders? Batteries somewhere in there and a wireless control signal?
No batteries, no wireless, all power lines of motors are connected via a slip ring under the main shaft. see video 0:59
I love how you build experiments to very your theory.
Yes, experiments are necessary
I think ZEUS has a point. The rotors changing spin direction at such high frequency would likely consume a lot of electricity and also stress everything to the point of breakage.
I would just ditch the magnus effect and use a simple propeller or vertical wind turbine, with blades that changes orientation all the way to zero power, to prevent overspeed, and reduce power production when it isn't needed.
When the radius of the turbine becomes larger, the rotational speed decreases naturally and the rotor does not have to change direction frequently. The blades that changes orientation are what's called "active pitch control",which may be too complicated for ordinary people to implement. The pitch is also driven by a motor, which is difficult to drive directly due to the weight of the blades. Therefore, the transmission mechanism and gearbox should be unavoidable and easily lead to failure. However, the Magnus rotor can achieve required lift by increasing the rotation speed, unlike the blade that needs to increase the surface area, so the rotor is lighter and easier to integrate with the motor to achieve direct drive, making the structure more reliable.
In addition,for active pitch control, the chord must be constantly changing with the relative wind direction to maintain the correct angle of attack(AOA), which requires a closed-loop servo system to precisely control the position, which is more complicated. On the contrary, using Magnus rotor only needs to do open-loop speed control, controlling the rotor’s position is not necessary, which is much simpler.
the blower of a tower fan will be easy and simple. just reverse the blade curve
I have built vertical access wind turbines for over 50 years á a hobby.
You guys missed it big time.
The symmetrical-section wings are for leverage only. Speed as well as power is controlled by the length of the moment arm.
I start mine with a flow of compressed air against what is basically a Pelton wheel at the base of the windmill. Once the blades are up to approximately three times the speed of the wind, it takes over and spins like a top. In fact, it's hard to slow down even shorting out the generator or applying the brakes. I live in Texas and the wind is very strong here.
The Darrieus wind turbine does have the problem of overspeeding when encountering strong winds, and it has not been effectively solved. Therefore, some designs use multiple blades (large solidity) to reduce the speed, but it also leads to low efficiency. not a good idea. The work of the VAWT has not been completed yet ...
The two Pac Wind VAWTs in my neighborhood blew apart in the same storm 10 years ago. One was the real big model and it just blew apart. The guy spent a fortune on it even the pole in the ground was really expensive because it was so big and so thick and had such a large concrete base.
You have a static start mechanism but you have failed to compute the actual wind direction in relation to the centre of each roller. very different phase angles needed . So take the phase angle from the centre of each roller and a wind vane on each roller . Then watch it fly
The phase of the rotor is not determined by the mechanism, but set by software. The encoder under the main shaft can detect the position of the rotor, and with the anemometer(Not necessary for wind tunnels), the angle between the wind and the rotor can be calculated. The software then add an offset to each rotor.
@@SmartServo_org phase angle detection is via the underside . you need to account for apparent wind .
What did you use for the generator? Did you generate any electric from this experiment?
It's just a conceptual model and it's too small.
It likely produces much less energy than it takes to run. The arduino is powering the rotation of the cylinders, which also requires even more energy to reverse the cylinder rotation half way through the rotation of the whole turbine.
It's nifty demonstration of the Magnus effect, but isn't a generator by any means because it is constantly working against itself with reversing the rotation of the cylinders, plus the significant extra friction from all the bearings.
The magnus effect is a very light force compared to just the direct force of the wind captured by a blade passively in a traditional turbine. So it's putting in more energy to rotate the cylinders for less rotational energy captured by the wind. Easiest way to think of it, for as fast as the demonstration was rotating, putting a similar scale blade turbine in front of that fan would be spinning much faster passively.
I have only read 3/4 of all comment and I'm impress by how you managed to answer them all.. I wish you were an AI.. keep doing what you're doing you inspired me who has probably 2 digit IQ.. sincerely i wish I my TH-cam feed would be filled with stuff like yours!
Thank you for your comments, also inspires me, I think TH-cam is a good platform to show your work and communicate with people all over the world. If you have a good idea, don't bury it.
What is the minimum wind speed necessary to make it function?
This device can rotate at a wind speed of about 1 m/s, not because of good efficiency but because the friction of the device is very small.
How much power does it put out at 1m/s wind speed though? Do you have any way to measure the torque?
@@magnuswright5572 This device is too small and can only rotate slightly in a breeze of about 1m/sec, not suitable for measuring power. If you want to measure the efficiency of a wind turbine, you can use the torque mode of a servo motor. Set a torque (as a load) at a given wind speed, then observe the rotational speed of the wind turbine and record it. Then increase the torque and observe the rotational speed (it should be decreased) again, repeating these steps to get the torque curve of the wind turbine, multiply the torque by the rotation speed is the power. Therefore, the power curve can also be obtained.
Hello, nice job! which software did you use for modelling?
Fusion 360
If you need the windward and wayward sides to be rotating in opposite directions then you would need 4 cylinders. With 3 cylinders the phase is off kilter for part of the time. Actually, it doesn't matter how many cylinders you have because each cylinder will be fighting against the desired rotation for half of it's revolution.
Ok I watched another video where the cylinders are unpowered. Now it makes sense that there are 3 cylinders. 4 would get stuck in place. I guess with yours there's some kind of interference for 1/3 of the time.
there is one full scale of these wind turbine that was already built and tested I think the problem was too much maintenance on all the movings parts vs regular direct shaft wind turbine
If you're talking about turbines made by a Japanese company (Challenergy), there's something different. They added a plate behind the rotor to shield the Magnus force downwind so that the motor didn't have to reverse, but it also lost some lift. What this video shows is the original untouched concept of Magnus VAWT. Although there are many problems, it could trigger some imagination => th-cam.com/video/9AdpggaOfF0/w-d-xo.html
good prototyping skills but little physics concept, many people think magnus effect could be used for vertical wind because it is cool. think of the magnus effect of transforming a cylinder into an airplane wing, or in a wind turbine the blades. you could get the same effect or even better power if these were simply vertical wind blades. of course, vertical wind turbines is not easy as simply vertical blades.
While Magnus rotors have had some problems with vertical wind turbines, all other approaches have not been successful, otherwise they should be everywhere like HAWT.
If i understand it correctly, you are driving the cylinders with a motor, in order to gain extra wind energy by the blowing wind and the magnus effect, correct? Now will it be higher than the energy required to make the rotors turn, and moreover: will it be more efficient as a regular vertical blade turbine? Nice proof of concept anyway!! I am really curious about the efficiency results, assuming you will try to find those out.
The Darrieus type is the most efficient vertical axis wind turbine, but it was not used successfully due to many unsolved problems such as poor starting ability ,dynamic stall and overspeed in high winds, while the Magnus type is easier.
Therefore, if the energy consumption of the rotor can be minimized and the efficiency of the Magnus-type turbine can be improved, this may be a good VAWT solution (more info=> smartservo.org/en/magnus-vawt-implement-en/), in addition, the Magnus rotor can also help Darrieus turbine to start easily.=>th-cam.com/video/9AdpggaOfF0/w-d-xo.html
That is very interesting. Good job.
thanks a lot
Would have been nice to see it turned on before the fan. Willing to bet a large portion of the rotational speed has a lot to do with imparted energy from the motors spinning the cylinders. Could be wrong about that, but there is definitely a need for them to show the difference between the fan being on and off
Edit: grammar errors
The motor drives the rotor, and the rotation of the rotor induces the wind to generate torque(by Magnus effect) to drive the main shaft. If the fan is not turned on, the main shaft cannot rotate.
@@SmartServo_org I'm aware of how the Magnus effect works, I'm just suggesting that maybe not all of the initial speed is caused by the Magnus effect alone.
This is an interesting thought. I made an odd sculpture where angular momentum was transferred to different parts just by the overall rotation of the whole. I wasn’t expecting it, but it was quite cool. Certainly the angular momentum of the rotors has to go somewhere when they reverse.
@@danajohnson5993 Because each rotor rotates at a different speed and direction, for example, when one rotor is accelerating, the other rotors are decelerating, and the changes in angular momentum may cancel out.
@@josephgauthier5018 In the future, I will add a video of the rotor turning before the fan is turned on.
It sis an interesting demonstration of the magnus effect, but as a wind turbine, I wonder if it is any better than replacing all the wind-catching stuff with a planetary gear set. You are putting energy into rotating the cylinders to get energy out of the turbine. Too me that seems suspiciously like blowing into the sail of your own ship.
Thanks for your opinion. The motor drives the rotor, and the rotation of the rotor causes the wind to generate torque (Magnus effect) to drive the main shaft. The rotor acts as a catalyst. The energy consumption of driving the rotor is not large. It only needs to overcome the viscosity of the fluid , the friction of the bearing and motor, which is less than directly driving the whole turbine. Although it has not been proven that the energy output can be greater than the input, i think it is possible => smartservo.org/en/magnus-vawt-implement-en/
Hello. Pretty amazing concept! If I want to build one, what 3D printing materials would you recommend? Can you advise on the what electrical components I could use ?
In my project I used PLA as my 3D printing material, but after about 1 year it has been bent due to the weight of the motor. Maybe ABS with better mechanical strength is more suitable for this, but still not suitable for large models, and ABS requires more 3D printing skills. The electronic components I use are Arduino UNO controller board, L298 DC motor driver board x3 and optocoupler modules x3.
@@SmartServo_org Thank you and all the best!
There is more engineering required than using a blade. The cost versus power output would be the decider.
Although the (Darrieus) turbine using blades is highly efficient, it is difficult to self-start. When combined with this device, it can take into account both efficiency and start-up. => th-cam.com/video/9AdpggaOfF0/w-d-xo.html
i wonder if it can work mechanically like put horizontal wheels on the bottom of the “blades” and have a inner and have a outer half ring under the turbine. if the wheel touches the outer ring it will rotate the other direction compared to the inner ring. it could even be made more fancy, by using conical wheels you can move the ring up and down to increase or decrease the number of rations of the “blades” make per revolution and by rotating the rings you can ajust for the wind angel
If you are interested, you can read this patent (US4446379) to know how people in the past solved this problem mechanically. Fortunately, there are more technologies available in this era. By the way, your method is also very clever.
Leider muss bei dem Konzept die Drehrichtung pro Umdrehung umgekehrt werden. Das erfordert je nach Masse der Rollen viel Energie. War bei dem Modell ein windrichtungsdetektor eingebunden? Interessanter Versuch jedenfalls...
The rollers aren’t reversing direction, and @4:30 he did use an anemometer
The method of improving the efficiency can refer to => smartservo.org/en/magnus-vawt-implement-en/
Hey, could you please direct me to a page with details on how to make this, if you used any sources? I want to try making something like this, as my first real project.
When the document is ready it will be posted on the website => smartservo.org/en/magnus-effect-vawt-main-en/
@@SmartServo_org thank you so much
@@1_and_only_Crjase sorry for the late reply.
Project file link => smartservo.org/en/magnus-vawt-files-open-en/
You should build 2 and place them near by it would be a windturbine pairing which is inspired by fish swarm
If you put a stator in each of the cylinders with a magnet, then each cylinder could generate electricity along with the arms that hold them out. And it could be sent via wireless electromagnetic induction of a unique transformer in the center of the vertical shaft where it all comes together to avoid twisting up the wires as the whole thing spins around that central axis.
the cylinders are driven by motors to produce the spin on the main shaft so diminishing returns i'm afraid.
@@GoldenAdhesive My idea would use the mechanical input of wind to turn a brushless motor for electrostatic output. It would not experience a reduction of "power," because technically electrostatic charge isn't a thermal effect. It can create heat in the form of voltage/electricity when inducted with a transformer though, and that's what I'm suggesting.
@@GoldenAdhesive I think he just used the electric fan to simulate wind. If his cylinders are actually very sensitive to wind, then they'd be great for generating their own charges that could be combined in the central vertical shaft/housing via a transformer.
@@davidt1621 check out his other videos he has intentionally mounted small motors to the bottom of the cylinders to turn them in opposing directions when required. He also provides a valid application for it.
@@GoldenAdhesive That's cheating though. The magnus effect is powered mechanically from natural airflow.
Ermmm... using motors to spin a generator? Whats the point?
It's a controlled test environment.
A motor drives a rotor, and the rotation of the rotor induces the wind power to generate torque to drive a generator. The rotor acts as a catalyst. Although it has not been proven that the energy output can be greater than the input, it is not impossible => smartservo.org/en/magnus-vawt-implement-en/
@@SmartServo_orgHence my question. But havent the setup been put through a power meter, for example?
Ermmm...A fake volcano for a science project using baking soda and vinegar. What's the point, why don't you use real lava? It's a tabletop demonstration to explain the physics behind wind energy.
Exactly what I was thinking
Hi ! We are two french students and we are leading some research and experiments on magnus effect wind turbines. We would like to build it ourselves to test it with different parameters.
Is it possible to have more details on the construction of this turbine (especially on motors) ?
URLs to all project files are listed below the video description. The motor model is DC130
@@SmartServo_org Hello again ! We've been going through the documents filed under the video but we still have some questions left. How did you build the gear reducer (or did you buy it ? what type is it ?) ? How does the tachometer work exactly ? And what is the purpose of the Arduino card, does it only receive information or also control the motors ?
@@EliseVeyrat you can get the gear box on amazon by searching"gear box arduino",To avoid too large a gear ratio to reduce the speed, 20 is a good choice. Since the rotor should rotate in opposite directions on the windward and leeward sides, the Arduino controls the speed and direction of the 3 motors according the azimuth sensor below the main shaft.As can be seen, two semi-circular plates are arranged at 90 degrees apart to divide a plane into 4 quadrants. at power up ,guessing at the center of the quadrant make the error less than +/- 45 degree which is small enough to drive the rotor in the right direction. when the main shaft rotates through the quadrants, the correct azimuth can be found. then count the pulse from the third plate with 40 holes on it to get the real time precise azimuth.
I would like to give you some advice to improve the system. If you replace the rotor cylinders with a succession of discs (Tesla turbine rotor), the friction with the air will increase and with it the speed of rotation of the main rotor of your system. Cheers!
Thanks for your suggestion, I will consider it.
Can you add a second rotor, like a bike, with weight for the inertia ?
What's the point?
what you study to know to create the electronic and programing??
This project only uses the PWM of the arduino UNO to control the L298 DC motor driver. It is programmed in C language.
For some reason the fan has horizontal axis. Can you use a fan with vertical axis, please!
does this produce energy for a device or just more wind ...what's the porpuse of this ?
i assume its meant to generate rotational energy for ships or as they said, VAWTs (Vertical Axis Wind Turbines)
but i doubt that the amount of energy harnessed is more than it takes to drive the drums, or is less than a normal Magnus turbine or HAWT.
The original purpose of this windmill is to generate electricity. Obviously, the problem it must overcome is that the energy generated must be greater than the energy consumed. The main solutions are:
1, increase the efficiency of the rotor,
>>Increase aspect ratio (slim and long) to improve lift-drag ratio.
2, reduce the energy consumption of the motor
>> reduce the mass of the rotor to make the inertia lighter
>>Recycle the energy when the motor decelerates and reuse it
With these improvements, I believe that net energy output can be achieved above a certain wind speed.
@@SmartServo_org And when you use more than 3 of these "white thingies" ( do not know the english term) ? Do you get more rpms? And/or with longer ones?
@@SmartServo_org Wonder if you could put a small generator on each magnus-effect tube as well as a big on the main rotor?
@@stanlibuda5786 Using a longer rotor can increase the lift-to-drag ratio, which is beneficial for increasing speed.
Now let get to the main goal of this device: 'wind turbine' to generate energy.
1. all power input into make the device spin in the wind will greatly negate any potential power it generated.
2. with the complexity of the mechanism, in practice, this device is prone to failure very quickly
3. by using 3 brushed motors as a mean to spin it, the rsult is quicker to failure due to burntout brushes.
if brushless motors are being used, they are expensive and added more complexity to the device.
Good try for demo though.
Thanks for your comment, let me explain your doubts：
1, Although it takes energy to rotate the cylinder, there are still ways to minimize energy consumption, see => smartservo.org/en/magnus-vawt-implement-en/
And don't forget that wind energy is proportional to the cube of wind speed. When the wind is strong enough, a net energy is produced.
2, The mechanism was chosen for this project simply because it was cheap. A set of DC motors and gearboxes cost less than $2 USD. Direct drive is also possible to eliminate the need for a gearbox to reduce complexity. => th-cam.com/video/XmZwYpoKQ8Y/w-d-xo.htmlsi=CRQ2mNfxw8CiiLoG&t=97
3, Due to the advancement of new motor technology, brushless motors are widely used in drones and remote control aircraft, which are reliable and cheap and suitable for our use.
My question is that is at a ideal situation that's not in The natural situation which is it's constantly changing wind speed
The reason traditional lift-type VAWTs worry about changes in wind speed is that the angle of attack(related to TSR) will be affected and possibly cause a stall. Magnus rotor is immune to wind speed changes, because the circular rotor has no chord, so there is no angle of attack, and no stall problem.
what can be the enery win ? how effective is it. May this is good for wind turbine for inner city because low nose
To start the Darrieus turbine is a reasonable application(see th-cam.com/video/9AdpggaOfF0/w-d-xo.html), when the rotation speed is fast enough, the motor can be stopped(@ 4:03) and no more energy is consumed. and the vertical axis wind turbine has low noise.
@@SmartServo_org soemone is distributing such a turbine for urban use ? I mean small for private homes lets say 300 or 600 Watt max
@@rainerlubke3766 Not yet, it's just a conceptual model.
@@SmartServo_org so ....
New idea 💡
No, I wasn't the first to think of this method, it's just that people in the past didn't have the help of modern technology (MCU, motor & drivers) to make it easy to implement. The new idea I came up with is => th-cam.com/video/9AdpggaOfF0/w-d-xo.html
This will be a high maintenance system because as the blades reverse direction they come to a complete stop then accelerate again. This will produce massive wear in the blade shaft bearings.
except magnetic/airfoil bearing
The acceleration and deceleration of the rotor will not cause bearing damage, it is caused by stress. Moreover, when the size of the wind turbine becomes larger, the rotation speed can be reduced, and the frequency of acceleration and deceleration is naturally reduced.
Exactly, and it takes a ridiculous amount of power to reverse direction TWICE every revolution.
👏😊such a lovely project. Keep going man 👍
Thanks🙂
Are you making more power than used?
way way less, lots of energy loss.
too much for perpetuum mobile
Not yet, but since the wind energy increases with the third power of the wind speed, as long as the wind speed increases and the energy consumption of the rotors are improved, it can be achieved. refer to => smartservo.org/en/magnus-vawt-implement-en/
Not even close and never will be.
What is the real time power draw necessary to rotate each cylinder during test under various conditions?
Here are ways to reduce power consumption and improve efficiency => smartservo.org/en/magnus-vawt-implement-en/
When you are bored engineer and you mom asking for a fan.
Can it be scaled up to generate positive electricity.
There is a Japanese company that is working onmaking full scale versions of these. The big selling point is they can work even in violent storm winds, such as hurricanes and typhoons
@@alantupper4106 The wind turbine in this video is still different from that of the Japanese company you mentioned (it should be Challenergy). It installs a flat plate behind each rotor to cover the wind from the leeward side, so that the rotor only needs to maintain the same speed without changing direction.Although easier to control, it uses only half of the Magnus lift.
@@SmartServo_org But if you constantly change the direction of the leeward-side-rotor, you get a problem with exotic materials, that would be needed, since in such a case, the rotors have to have marginal rotational inertia, in order to speed-up and slow-down constantly. I think the japanese approach is better. Use only the half the magnus-effect, but avoid using high-tech-material-rotors (rotors made out of materials that don´t even exist yet).
I thought it´s crazy when I saw it, and I thought, that if there were a way to avoid the change-of-direction, it then would be a great idea, and now you tell me that this already exists, in Japan.
Build your rotors hollow, with stable spokes/beams leading to the rotors´s shell.
@@klausbrinck2137 Is it a good idea to sacrifice half of the Magnus effect for the motor not to have to change direction? Seems too optimistic until knowing how efficient it is.In addition, motors that rotate in one direction are not as good as motors that do not need to rotate.It's not too late to judge after seeing this idea=> th-cam.com/video/9AdpggaOfF0/w-d-xo.html
Nice vid. How will this scale to macro level like on building roof tops ?
For this device to be meaningful, it must first solve the problem of energy consumption. Before that, combining it with lift blades may be a way to create value in the short term. Please refer to =>th-cam.com/video/9AdpggaOfF0/w-d-xo.html
@@SmartServo_org why does it need energy? Do you really have to spin the columns manually ?
Wouldn't just using the column spin to generate energy work?
use the back-EMF to control the rotation, you would only need energy to start it.
Nevertheless nice idea, but too many moving parts.
Buen proyecto maestro
What is your educational background and current industry of work?
Study mechanical engineering, work as a firmware engineer, not related to wind energy
Whoever convinced you to use eighties sitcom music was trolling you.
More like Steely Dan cover band jam session
how would that be a turbine if you use motors?
Don't worry about motors, they are also present in popular horizontal wind turbines for pitch control. What important is that the energy harvested from the air is greater than the energy consumed, even if this device is questionable, it is still possible => smartservo.org/en/magnus-vawt-implement-en/
great content thanks
Thanks for your appreciation.
thanks
Try to improve the already existing design that is used on ships, with a single spool.
Already done => th-cam.com/video/gMym621FtR8/w-d-xo.htmlsi=65ZBRfyVOeUX4Bj6
How fast does the CW-to-CCW change take place? (e.g. from 100rpm CCW to 100 rpm CW, like from zero to 200 rpm in about nanoseconds? And what kind of motor can do that?)
When the radius of the windmill increases, the rotational speed naturally decreases. Because the linear velocity is constant.
@@SmartServo_org I must have missed something. I do see in your other vid and I understand that the rotation changes direction when between leeward and windward . But how fast can that be done? (I know it may also depend on the moment of inertia of the rotor. E.g. would they be built out of lead, I cant see how a small motor could do the direction changes.) Nevertheless, your project is very inspiring, so keep up the good experimentation.
How are you solved the commutation of Flettner rotor rotation?
Using DC motor driver board (L298), all project parts are listed here => smartservo.org/en/magnus-vawt-files-open-en/
@@SmartServo_org Thanks. I think, overcoming inertia when reversing the direction of rotation of the cylinders must bring down the efficiency of this device severely.
@@minduton Yes, but energy consumption can be minimized through the methods described here => smartservo.org/en/magnus-vawt-implement-en/#improve_ways
@@SmartServo_org At this would be better to apply the "pendulum principle". Take such a pendulum at an ancient clock. It is a machine that performs a regular opposite movements, but with an absolute minimum of energy. So, install a spring or a piece of rubber coil into the Flettner cylinder, which mostly uses the energy to rotate the cylinder in the opposite direction.
It is also a question whether it would not be an advantage to reduce the number of Flettner cylinders to an even number. This would make it possible to mechanically link the drive of the opposite cylinders and then maybe figure out some mechanically elegant way to use the already unnecessary kinetic energy of the opposite cylinder to reverse the rotation.
This type of turbine simply stands and falls on how efficiently it is possible to recover the kinetic energy of those cylinders during their commutation. So far you are at "minus 100%" currently. :) Unfortunately. So in terms of overall efficiency, it sucks.
The speed and direction of rotation of the cylinders should copy an ideal sinusoidal curve when projected onto the graph, logically. With such a course of rotation speed, the maximum efficiency of this device will be.
Interesting design ! :)
thanks !
Can you share STL file for wing sections?
What is an STL file?
>Has no blades.
>Technically has blades.
I think cylindrical rotors are easier to manufacture than normal blades with curved surfaces. If the rotor is made soft and hollow, it will naturally form a cylindrical shape as long as it is inflated.
The is something I heard from Japan claiming that it can generate electricity from tornado (btw I am not quite sure if it is the US or Japan)
Maybe you're talking about a turbine made by a Japanese company (Challenergy), still a little different. They added a plate behind the rotor to mask the Magnus force on the leeward side so the motor didn't have to reverse, but it also lost some lift. This video shows the Magnus VAWT in its original concept.
Just a case. In a day with no wind at all how do you get power to spin the rotor? How much efficiency it can get?
If there is no wind at all, what's the point of spinning the rotor?
@@praveenb9048 I presume that this system is working without human intervention. So how the wind turbine knows if there's a wind blowing? The electricity is produced by center axis spin by magnus effect produced from 3 rotating "blades"
Yes, I'm assuming that some kind of smart controller would be used. For example, if the wind is to strong the controller would have to reduce the rotor speed to avoid damaging the mechanical and electrical elements.
@@rainbowforest09 Yes, it requires auxiliary devices to make up the system, such as anemometer, controller, batteries or power source ...
@@SmartServo_org Obviously energy is being put in, what is coming out? Hopefully more than in.
Wait if than spin need electric i think is not turbine, turbine is no need electric 🤔, but if electric production higher than consumption maybe is good to
Although it has not been proven that the energy output can be greater than the input, it is possible => smartservo.org/en/magnus-vawt-implement-en/
before that, To start the Darrieus turbine is a reasonable work(see th-cam.com/video/9AdpggaOfF0/w-d-xo.html), when the rotation speed is fast enough, the motor can be stopped(@ 4:03) and no more energy is consumed.
This is for test purpose man. As said in start of test
How much of movement is coming from the fan, and how much from the DC motors spinning the drums? Technically just running on the DC motors the wind turbine will still move without wind. Your goal should able do this without the DC motors with some gear train on the central hub going out to each drum.
The energy consumption of driving the rotor to generate Magnus lift is not large. It only needs to overcome the viscosity of the fluid and the friction force of the bearing, which is lower than the energy consumption of directly driving the whole windmill because the wind energy is used. The method of improving the efficiency can refer to => smartservo.org/en/magnus-vawt-implement-en/
Without wind it cannot start spinning relying on the Magnus effect. If it is already in motion it will have the Magnus effect but I think the force will be directed inwards or outwards without contributing to the rotation
So, must be have three motor for priming and stopping?
Yes, the motors are required to drive the rotors when starting, but not when stopping.
Huge stress and maintenance on the mechanical parts like bearings lowering efficiency of the concept. Idea may be good still...
Thanks for your comment, I made a bigger one with slim rotors to reduce inertia and drag, if you are interested you can refer to the video @ 1:31 =>th-cam.com/video/9AdpggaOfF0/w-d-xo.html
Brushless direct drive motors might make it mechanically simpler and faster response, definitely quieter!
Of course, this video( th-cam.com/video/9AdpggaOfF0/w-d-xo.html ) shows a second version using BLDC motors. It is used to start the Darrieus turbine, when the rotation speed is fast enough, the motor can be stopped(@ 4:03) and no more energy is consumed.
And in an open air situation. The wind is non-controlable. As the fan had to be adjusted for results. Open air wind can not be adjusted. A fan has a tunnel effect needed for this turbine to work.
Simply using a fan is different from a wind tunnel, and there will be no wind tunnel effect. Also, the Magnus effect works both in the wind tunnel and outdoors, just like Messi can kick a banana ball without being in a wind tunnel.
now all you have to do is tie a wind direction sensor in to the phase control to automate the system
Yes, this is a necessary step for testing the turbine outdoors. Before that, I needed to redesign the structure to make it bigger and stronger.
If this was to replace existing wind turbines. How big would it be to generate the same amount of electricity?
If you're asking about efficiency, further experimentation is required. I've only verified so far that it can exceed TSR 2, Limited by motor response and rotor lift-to-drag ratio, but already faster than many common VAWTs.
How many aa batteries do I need to do this?
It depends on what the rated voltage of the motor you choose is.
I would say that It has blades on the foam cylinder
the strip on the cylinder is not necessary => th-cam.com/video/XmZwYpoKQ8Y/w-d-xo.htmlsi=R0IujWvqjNI3tsB0&t=22
the strip on the cylinder presents the force for cylinder's rotation, then causes outer turbine rotating.
you can compare the rotation speed difference between with and without the strips.
and you can test by using the cylinder with very smooth surface such as thin foil
More moving parts, less lift generated.. its a wonder why airplanes don't use magnus "wings"
Decades ago, people tried to use Magnus rotor to build aircraft, but for many reasons, it failed. In theory, the rotor's lift-drag ratio is not as large as that of fixed-wing, but the lift coefficient is large. Therefore, The speed of the Magnus aircraft is between that of a fixed-wing aircraft and a helicopter. But it can take off and land at short distances, and it still has its value.
@@SmartServo_org I know.
*All practical tests of ground-based small wind turbines show: 1) They hardly produce any electricity! 2) They do not last long!*
Wind/electricity yield increases with the third power of the wind speed.+ 100% wind = 800% +electricity. Close to the ground, however, 0 constant wind, but intensive gusts.
Therefore 9 out of 10 small wind turbines stop working after just a few years due to the extremely gusty winds close to ground.
*On the other hand, solar panels generate at least 10 times more electricity with the same investment!* Reliable and almost maintenance-free for at least 25 years!
Hello bro...i want to ask you that what is the name of simulation software and can you give link plzz?
Fusion 360 =>www.autodesk.com/products/fusion-360/personal
Something this size could easily be used on a sailing yacht or erected in camp for an RV.
Portable wind turbines also have market potential and are in demand by travelers or campers.
Why not just use a helical wind turbine? It also has no blades.
What type of helical wind turbine are you referring to? Is there a link?
Really enjoyed this please continue to make videos.
thanks, I will
Is it faster than the electric fan blower ?
no, this design cannot be achieved, because the motor can't keep up with the frequency of the command.
Why does everyone put shitty music over otherwise nice content?
How much current can you get at 20volts?
This experimental device is too small to generate electricity, but it can be used like this => th-cam.com/video/9AdpggaOfF0/w-d-xo.html
How much would it cost to build one of these? 3D printers, material, electrical equipment for testing etc?
The materials are not expensive, mainly include Arduino UNO(10 USD), L298 DC motor Driver(2.5 USD) x3, motor & Gear box(2 USD) x3, Slip ring(10 USD), optocoupler module(2 USD) )x3, the most expensive part is three acrylic circular plates (made to order) which cost about 40 USD
There is absolutely NO advantage to having a vertical axis and many disadvantages. Even with ideal hypothetical conditions, the cylinders would produce thrust in only a narrow section of the leading windward and trailing leeward sides, while the neutral left and right sides produce nothing. Needing to suddenly reverse direction of spin every time a cylinder goes from windward to leeward is asking for broken equipment.
If you're going to use the magnus effect, it's far more efficient and practical to use a horizontal axis with spinning cylinders replacing the blades of a standard wind turbine. Then the cylinders can always spin in the same direction and always extract power 360° of rotation.
The structure of the horizontal axis Magnus wind turbine is too complicated.The motor and generator form a concentric shaft to connect to the hub. The motor drives each rotor through a planetary gear system. The rotor is a rotating cantilever beam that puts a lot of bending stress on the hub.A yaw device is also required. These complex mechanisms are not only expensive but also detrimental to efficiency, not to mention reliability. The vertical axis type is instead simple.
@@SmartServo_org Ummm, no, you're wrong. Your contraption does not work AT ALL. Hopefully you'll learn sooner than later.
But can it generate any electricity???
Since it can produce a lot of torque, I think the power generation is fine, the problem is making it efficient.
Impressive
thanks
Rule of thumb the less moving parts the better.
You are right, but even Darrieus wind turbines have no moving parts other than the main shaft and have not been used successfully. Sometimes compromises must be made in exchange for benefits. Rotational motion is not all detrimental unless there are (1) heavy loads (2) gearboxes (3) cantilevered construction, which are not present in the project of this video when using direct drive.
@@SmartServo_org yes but now ur sounding like Nissan let’s use cvts. .
it didn’t work for them
"Less" is used for amounts, e.g kilograms, litres, gallons, pounds. "Moving parts" is a number e.g. 3,4, a dozen moving parts. Hence, *"The fewer moving parts, the better"....because correct English makes you sound more educated & adds credibility to your statements.
@@topspeed250k5 ok and your point is I’m not writing a dissertation sir or mam, I can care less what u or the rest of the 8 billion on this planet think. Nobody listens to me anyways, education doesn’t mean your smart people like Tesla and Einstein will confirm that. It’s having vision. So what I said was right you made it into a cluster duck
Why the gears? Can’t you do direct drive?
The direct drive version shown in the video(th-cam.com/video/9AdpggaOfF0/w-d-xo.html)@ 01:31 using 3 BLDC motors.
maan, but use a planetary gear system instead of electrical control
The friction of the gear system needs to be considered, and the rotor also needs to change direction every revolution.
@@SmartServo_org ¿are you changing direction with control every half cycle?
Нажмите на фрагмент, чтобы вставить его в текстовое поле.🎉
Cool
thanks
Why aren’t you using toothed belts
…to sprockets on the rotors and one on the center so rotating the rotor frame causes the rotors to spin. You could use a self starting rotor like Slavonic’s attached to the three arm frame to get it going when the main rotors would take it from there. Early Darius rotors used this method.
@@danajohnson5993 The rotor has to change direction.
magnus effect pull perpendicular at vector of wind! your experiment is wrong, you need to make propeller and instead of blades put there rotating cylinders.
The Magnus effect does not require a propeller, it uses the pressure difference created by a rotating object.
@@SmartServo_org of course, but vector of thrust is in wrong direction.
@@chichomancho1791 From 0:20 in the video, the direction of the thrust is indicated, and the wind is blowing from the right.
@@SmartServo_org he means of you connect the cylinders directly to the central blue hub and have them each rotate in the same direction it would work better.
@@galtthedestroyer yes, you understand what I mean.👍
Even if it does work, the bearings will, wear out quickly... And you have a lot of them...
The torque characteristics of common VAWTs with blades are quite different from those with rotors, so previous experience cannot be applied here.
@@SmartServo_org what does that have to do with it, vertical turbans have only one or two and they fail...you need at least 8 taper bearings...
I believe their point was that there may be less loading on the bearings, leading to increased lifespan...
Bravos! Keep trying.
Thanks
Seriously nice Muzak
thanks
It seems like a cool project where can I get the files
How good are they when on load?
This is just a concept test, if you want to test the efficiency, the optimization process should be implemented first, you can refer to the article for more information => smartservo.org/en/magnus-vawt-implement-en/
That was my first question too. Can it overcome cogging?