Roger Penrose: Mathematics & What Exists | Episode 2210 | Closer To Truth
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 ม.ค. 2024
- Roger Penrose-mathematician, physicist, philosopher-was awarded the 2020 Nobel Prize in Physics. We speak with Roger about our favorite, fundamental questions. What things exist? What is math and why does it work? What’s fundamental in the cosmos?
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Closer To Truth host Robert Lawrence Kuhn takes viewers on an intriguing global journey into cutting-edge labs, magnificent libraries, hidden gardens, and revered sanctuaries in order to discover state-of-the-art ideas and make them real and relevant.
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Closer To Truth, hosted by Robert Lawrence Kuhn and directed by Peter Getzels, presents the world’s greatest thinkers exploring humanity’s deepest questions. Discover fundamental issues of existence. Engage new and diverse ways of thinking. Appreciate intense debates. Share your own opinions. Seek your own answers.
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Roger is national treasure, I hope he has many more years with us!
Sounds like The Blessed Trinity
God the Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit
1. Platonic Mathematical World
2. Physical World
3. Mental World
It's not Nature vs Nurture.
It's not Mind vs Matter.
It's not spirit vs body.
.
The fact is more like
Nature and Nurture
Mind and Matter.
We exist as Both Mind and Body.
Yes !
We Brits are so very proud of Uncle Roger !
@@dongshengdi773 What utter rubbish.
As much as everybody loves Roger, he's pushing over 90, I think...
Thanks!
Wow, full interview of Roger Penrose, good way to start 2024!
From 10 years ago? A lot has changed in 10 years.
@@jonathancunningham4159It's not Nature vs Nurture.
It's not Mind vs Matter.
It's not spirit vs body.
.
The fact is more like
Nature and Nurture
Mind and Matter.
We exist as Both Mind and Body.
I could listen to Roger all day. What a brilliant guy.
I love to listen to Roger Penrose, not pretentious, love his explanations.
A good example of longevity being helped by an ever active brain. A life well lived, say I
Sir Roger is a gift to our world.
How can he be so sharp at 90+ years old. Wow
Always remain in awe when listing to Roger Penrose.. Thank you Robert.
What a wonderful voyage it would be to swim around in Sir Roger's mind for a little while!
This type of stuff is way better than church! Fascinating!
RL Kuhn is the Groucho emeritus of vaudevillean
truth. His amusement is
palpable..his impatience
sublime..
He's a string puppet that became sentient.
I love Closer ToTruth: it's the River Monsters of PhilosophyTube, and Robert Lawrence Kuhn is its Jeremy Wade. 😂
This guys gonna find out what exists if its the last thing he does.
@@SteadyEddy-ko9po 🤣
I'm trying
Roger Penrose, is also one of my personal super-heros. I like the episode of CT, but CT missed the chance to reveal the beauty of RPs cyclic conformal theory. His idea that the final state of our universe is the same state in which distance and time cannot be measured and therefore loses existence.
I wonder if, maybe secretly, Roger sees the conformal rescaling at the end of time happening, continuously, in the present moment... not just at the 'end of the universe.' That we're in free-fall all the time, except when our perspective slightly changes and we suddenly see gravity everywhere. Maybe not that thought 'causes' gravity, but the two co-arise/are mutually evoked.
@@erawanpencil I also believe it to be a continuous rescaling, with an associated time dilation, not at some ambiguous end of an 'epoch'
@@David.C.Velasquezyour belief could hardly be less relevant
Agreed@@ralphclark, and 'believe' was likely a bad choice of word, on my part. What would your hypothesis be, on the problem of CCC having an arbitrary point of 'rescale'?
@@David.C.Velasquez to be sure the theory entirely belongs to Penrose and it rests entirely on the notion that when there is no matter left in the universe, there are no clocks. Another way of saying this is that there are no rulers. Hence with no matter there is no way to impose a scale. The geometry of the universe becomes entirely conformal. But this ends as soon as matter reappears. After that point there can be no rescaling until the matter goes away again.
Thank you, I really enjoyed this, Roger Penrose is certainly closer to truth on these questions than anyone else imho, and feels about as right as our minds can handle given the impossible triangle of how little of the truth we get to see... no matter how close we get to it!
This is one of my favorite interviews of all your interviews
Brilliant and always a pleasure to watch! Thank you!
Amazing, absolutely love Roger Penrose
I really like how y’all gave an intro with dates and some lead in to the interview
And man I love Sir Roger, he’s on my at least top3-5 list of people I’d love to meet. A lot of very smart physicists and such don’t seem to have a lot of social skills, which is fine you gotta pool your strength somewhere, but there’s some about Roger that just makes him cool to me. It’s like…it’s like he understands the universe is weird and that maybe we can’t shoehorn it into our current theories that are “safe” to espouse, professionally. He allows himself to go into the potentially trippy side of reality, but then throws his astonishing intellect at it and no one else in the mainstream dares to question his sanity like has been done to other theorists over the years. Idk, Roger just seems humble enough to show he’s one of us, that he’s weirded out and fascinated by reality as well. What a cool dude
You’re overrating him... name one thing he talked about that can be tested in real world.
@@hakiza-technologyltd.8198I doubt the Nobel Prize is awarded to the overrated. His mathematics can be tried and tested in quantum mechanics. His mathematical oversight was essential in helping Hawkin's works. Penrose Tiling can be appreciated in the real world. Of course it's difficult to rationalise how Theoretical Physics and Cosmology can be applied to the "real world", but I'm sure his insights, and his misunderstandings, will guide progress in these fields for years to come. A good example of the value of the journey, rather than the destination.
@@hakiza-technologyltd.8198every good mathematician is in some way a poet and you will never understand that unfortunately im sorry
Nothing that anyone can say will ever really make questions such the real meaning of mathematics less disturbing. It is a maddening itch that cannot be scratched. Thank you for trying, Mr. Penrose.
Roger Penrose is the modern Newton.
❤ these mind boggling trips. Thank you CTT. ❤ Roger Penrose 🙏
Excellent.... thanks 🙏❤
Great show, thanks!
I admire Roger Penrose's creativity and agree that the three worlds he describes are interconnected, fall within a unified whole. However, what is often overlooked, both by laypeople and scientists, is that our understanding of the Big Bang is based on extrapolating within a linear time framework towards a specific beginning or start. This approach, I believe, may limit our perspective. To put it metaphorically, it's like standing on the wrong leg for support.
Yes the new exploration into GR headlined as ‘singularities don’t exist’ by the media is testament to your point. I wonder then if you fathomed that notion before or after the news
@@anywallsocket I have a whole complete reality&universe model. worked 41 years on it. This year i finally saw an explanation how reality can be self explaining and keeping it self in to existense. so how it is she can be, can exist. I began 41 years ago just with the foundation of reality it self after making progress there I started also about the universe and saw the bridge between both. Information, then quantumstate was in reach for linkage right away and I understood GR is in error if we want to explain all with it. spacetime is not at all the foundation of reality. I am now writing it my work down as finally it is a whole. It will get the title 'A conceptual perspective on the nature of reality'. But it gives some paradigma shift about some perspectives we see now as true. So some things about GR it does not shows as wrong, no, but as not right interpretated. To lineair interpretated. It tells some things about black holes, about the universe, about time, about a lot of things. It is really an authentic work as a whole.
So i have a unique description of what reality is at its foundation, and then i moved up to what we label as the Universe.
@@blijebij so what do you make of the aforementioned news then in relation to your conception?
@@anywallsocket That for example GR works with curving of spacetime as the cause of gravity, for example my model states, from within spacetime and from spacetime devices this looks tot true, yet it is not. Gravity is entropic and linked to information, for a big part it has an overlap with Erik's Verlinde's entropic gravity, but on some points I shares more. It states Oppenheim is right, information is the bridge and mass is not constant. I can not say more as that simply would give away my authenticity here. My model ends infinities for ever, not within math for calculation for example limits etc, but for it to really exist and takes it place within reality. Information gives all scale. I was some time free playing with mach's principle curious if i could add creativity, then a theoreticus (physicist) asked try solving inertia. I tried and succeeded (its fair to say in my opinion ofc) but I never showed it as the same paradigma shift came out that signatures the whole model I use. I can not share more sadly. One thing I can say freely, my model states the universe always was and it has a clean entropy solution. Also it states black holes have a quantum field just outside of its horizon that is entangled with its inside and solves the information paradox. Those 2 things are not super special, but the rest i can not share.
Having said that, i am an autodidact passionate philosopher and say my work is unique in several key aspects. I still am not a mathematician or a phycisist. so my work could be , a work in the rough. See? It is possible such scientist could get a lot more out of its conceptual perception.
Dear sir, I love your channel and respect your intelligence and adore how humble you have been over the years. . Thank you for stating the date of the recording of the interview with your honorable self and Sir Arthur Penrose. Sometimes a video will appear and there will be no info regarding the date in which it was recorded and you hide your age or never age at all it seems so I always wonder when these were recorded and so thank you for mentioning that in this video. Hopefully, if possible, in future videos.
The equilateral triangle is actually a representation of reality depicted by the Mobius strip. It is faith in this reality that is the basis of mathematics. What a wonderful representation.
Sir Roger Penrose, I see your mind clearly. I like everything about it. Movement is inevitable - an acausal product you cant do without, if you really want answers.
Brilliant interview!!
The final paragraph of Roger Penrose’s “Shadows of the Mind” reads:
“These are deep issues, and we are yet very far from explanations. I would argue that no clear answers will come forward unless the interrelating features of *all* these worlds are seen to come into play. No one of these issues will be solved in isolation from the others. I have referred to these three worlds and the mysteries that relate them to one another. No doubt there are not three worlds but *one*, the true nature of which we do not even glimpse at present.” [original emphasis]
.."nos estamos perdiendo algo", que maravilla!!
"All this is one self-consistent poem, epic in intention and meaning, if not strictly so in form." ~ Alfred Lord Tennyson
the universe as a language using math as it's grammar while Roger Penrose translates, neat.
This series rules. I feel like I've met Robert Lawrence Kuhn, but I know for a fact I have not. Science grandpa.
Mathematics can be thought of as every possible, conceivable and inconceivable pattern or algorithm. All of our thoughts everything about us is constrained by our physical structure and definable by algorithms. So surely conscious (mental world) mathematics is bounded and represents only a subset of mathematics. All of our thoughts, everything about us is definable by algorithms. So maybe the mathematical thinking that we (or any bounded entities) are capable of, is the entirety of the mental world. Mental existence could be considered a subset of physical existence, in which case mental existence allows physical existence to encompass more of mathematics than it otherwise could. Does that comprise all of mathematics?
The mathematical world exists irrespective of the other worlds and encompasses all the others. I love this.
i am glad that something is missing - leave something for future generations to figure out - sometimes the unsaid communicates more than a jumble of words
Lovely park with the bridge at the end there. Does anyone know where that was filmed?
Thank you! Priceless
I am convinced, math is discovered
The more I listen to these guys the more I’m convinced that the real problem may lay in that this may not be reality. It feels more like a procedurally generated inner verse built to sequester intelligence that is self imposed for many practical reasons.
The answer to reality may be a lot simpler and mostly a distraction from what is necessary to deal with and defeat time itself .
Whatever it is is probably far stranger than we’ve imagined.
Something from nothing and life from something with intelligence from life that then creates consciousness from intelligence, that culminates in math and data collection from consciousness, is the strangest paradox string ever. The can always gets kicked down the road.
Something from nothing when nothing doesn’t even appear to be possible due to so much stuff that is something when most of something is empty space that is still full of something.
It’s enough to make your brain explode if it weren’t for apathy.
Some ideas borrowed from Complexity could help: The main question is whether the laws followed by entities, assemblies and functionalities that emerge from a substrate are the same when emerging from a different substrate. If they are not equal but similar, it could help to admit that behaviors in the algebraic world are similar to behaviors in the physical world. Mind assemblies that reproduce behaviors could have been selected by evolution and learning. Regarding reality, another idea borrowed from computing could help: It should be taken into account that we don’t perceive the physical world directly but through the emergent world created the Human Being Operating System. The state of this world is adjusted continuously according to the environment and its structure and dynamics come from genetics and experience. Mysteries are the same. The only change is in the language.
Excellent. Thank you. There is no way to incorporate divine world if that's what yr intimating at the end. The unknowable unknows are pointless to speculate on.
I've always been here in this moment. If there was a time before life existed in this universe, I must've existed in another universe. Subject-object is eternal.
What if there is no 'gravty'; only momentum and topology - does that help Roger?
On this date I think I finally have begun to understand a little bit of Penrose's triad. Very interesting indeed.
I love Penrose and I enjoyed these interviews. But I wish you had pressed him on how the physical world is supposed to emerge from mere mathematics. His collaborator Hawking once impressively wrote, "What is it that breathes fire into the equations and makes a universe for them to describe?". Though Hawking didn't have courage to follow that thought, it's THE question to ask of these mathematical physicists. How do time and the world of change emerge from equations that sit impassively on their own in eternity?
Love Robert
Love Roger
Top intellectual giants.
Class Act.
Although all our efforts to gain truth are simply us showing God that we desire truth and are willing to work for it. We ultimately obtain any truth we receive as a free gift from him in every instance (I believe), but of course, we have to show him we want it.
010 Infinity Squared. From 0 we come to 0 we go. Time is dead, overrun by Timing. Time ~ Timing ~ Timeism. Uni-Verse on a Switch, on/off in no time at all.
If quarks have not been isolated and gluons have not been isolated, how do we know they are not parts of the same thing? The tentacles of an octopus and the body of an octopus are parts of the same creature.
Is there an alternative interpretation of "Asymptotic Freedom"? What if Quarks are actually made up of twisted tubes which become physically entangled with two other twisted tubes to produce a proton? Instead of the Strong Force being mediated by the constant exchange of gluons, it would be mediated by the physical entanglement of these twisted tubes. When only two twisted tubules are entangled, a meson is produced which is unstable and rapidly unwinds (decays) into something else. A proton would be analogous to three twisted rubber bands becoming entangled and the "Quarks" would be the places where the tubes are tangled together. The behavior would be the same as rubber balls (representing the Quarks) connected with twisted rubber bands being separated from each other or placed closer together producing the exact same phenomenon as "Asymptotic Freedom" in protons and neutrons. The force would become greater as the balls are separated, but the force would become less if the balls were placed closer together. Therefore, the gluon is a synthetic particle (zero mass, zero charge) invented to explain the Strong Force. An artificial Christmas tree can hold the ornaments in place, but it is not a real tree.
String Theory was not a waste of time, because Geometry is the key to Math and Physics. However, can we describe Standard Model interactions using only one extra spatial dimension? What did some of the old clockmakers use to store the energy to power the clock? Was it a string or was it a spring?
What if we describe subatomic particles as spatial curvature, instead of trying to describe General Relativity as being mediated by particles? Fixing the Standard Model with more particles is like trying to mend a torn fishing net with small rubber balls, instead of a piece of twisted twine.
Quantum Entangled Twisted Tubules:
“We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question which divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct.” Neils Bohr
(lecture on a theory of elementary particles given by Wolfgang Pauli in New York, c. 1957-8, in Scientific American vol. 199, no. 3, 1958)
The following is meant to be a generalized framework for an extension of Kaluza-Klein Theory. Does it agree with some aspects of the “Twistor Theory” of Roger Penrose, and the work of Eric Weinstein on “Geometric Unity”, and the work of Dr. Lisa Randall on the possibility of one extra spatial dimension? During the early history of mankind, the twisting of fibers was used to produce thread, and this thread was used to produce fabrics. The twist of the thread is locked up within these fabrics. Is matter made up of twisted 3D-4D structures which store spatial curvature that we describe as “particles"? Are the twist cycles the "quanta" of Quantum Mechanics?
When we draw a sine wave on a blackboard, we are representing spatial curvature. Does a photon transfer spatial curvature from one location to another? Wrap a piece of wire around a pencil and it can produce a 3D coil of wire, much like a spring. When viewed from the side it can look like a two-dimensional sine wave. You could coil the wire with either a right-hand twist, or with a left-hand twist. Could Planck's Constant be proportional to the twist cycles. A photon with a higher frequency has more energy. ( E=hf, More spatial curvature as the frequency increases = more Energy ). What if Quark/Gluons are actually made up of these twisted tubes which become entangled with other tubes to produce quarks where the tubes are entangled? (In the same way twisted electrical extension cords can become entangled.) Therefore, the gluons are a part of the quarks. Quarks cannot exist without gluons, and vice-versa. Mesons are made up of two entangled tubes (Quarks/Gluons), while protons and neutrons would be made up of three entangled tubes. (Quarks/Gluons) The "Color Charge" would be related to the XYZ coordinates (orientation) of entanglement. "Asymptotic Freedom", and "flux tubes" are logically based on this concept. The Dirac “belt trick” also reveals the concept of twist in the ½ spin of subatomic particles. If each twist cycle is proportional to h, we have identified the source of Quantum Mechanics as a consequence twist cycle geometry.
Modern physicists say the Strong Force is mediated by a constant exchange of Gluons. The diagrams produced by some modern physicists actually represent the Strong Force like a spring connecting the two quarks. Asymptotic Freedom acts like real springs. Their drawing is actually more correct than their theory and matches perfectly to what I am saying in this model. You cannot separate the Gluons from the Quarks because they are a part of the same thing. The Quarks are the places where the Gluons are entangled with each other.
Neutrinos would be made up of a twisted torus (like a twisted donut) within this model. The twist in the torus can either be Right-Hand or Left-Hand. Some twisted donuts can be larger than others, which can produce three different types of neutrinos. If a twisted tube winds up on one end and unwinds on the other end as it moves through space, this would help explain the “spin” of normal particles, and perhaps also the “Higgs Field”. However, if the end of the twisted tube joins to the other end of the twisted tube forming a twisted torus (neutrino), would this help explain “Parity Symmetry” violation in Beta Decay? Could the conversion of twist cycles to writhe cycles through the process of supercoiling help explain “neutrino oscillations”? Spatial curvature (mass) would be conserved, but the structure could change.
=====================
Gravity is a result of a very small curvature imbalance within atoms. (This is why the force of gravity is so small.) Instead of attempting to explain matter as "particles", this concept attempts to explain matter more in the manner of our current understanding of the space-time curvature of gravity. If an electron has qualities of both a particle and a wave, it cannot be either one. It must be something else. Therefore, a "particle" is actually a structure which stores spatial curvature. Can an electron-positron pair (which are made up of opposite directions of twist) annihilate each other by unwinding into each other producing Gamma Ray photons?
Does an electron travel through space like a threaded nut traveling down a threaded rod, with each twist cycle proportional to Planck’s Constant? Does it wind up on one end, while unwinding on the other end? Is this related to the Higgs field? Does this help explain the strange ½ spin of many subatomic particles? Does the 720 degree rotation of a 1/2 spin particle require at least one extra dimension?
Alpha decay occurs when the two protons and two neutrons (which are bound together by entangled tubes), become un-entangled from the rest of the nucleons
. Beta decay occurs when the tube of a down quark/gluon in a neutron becomes overtwisted and breaks producing a twisted torus (neutrino) and an up quark, and the ejected electron. The production of the torus may help explain the “Symmetry Violation” in Beta Decay, because one end of the broken tube section is connected to the other end of the tube produced, like a snake eating its tail. The phenomenon of Supercoiling involving twist and writhe cycles may reveal how overtwisted quarks can produce these new particles. The conversion of twists into writhes, and vice-versa, is an interesting process, which is also found in DNA molecules. Could the production of multiple writhe cycles help explain the three generations of quarks and neutrinos? If the twist cycles increase, the writhe cycles would also have a tendency to increase.
Gamma photons are produced when a tube unwinds producing electromagnetic waves. ( Mass=1/Length )
The “Electric Charge” of electrons or positrons would be the result of one twist cycle being displayed at the 3D-4D surface interface of the particle. The physical entanglement of twisted tubes in quarks within protons and neutrons and mesons displays an overall external surface charge of an integer number. Because the neutrinos do not have open tube ends, (They are a twisted torus.) they have no overall electric charge.
Within this model a black hole could represent a quantum of gravity, because it is one cycle of spatial gravitational curvature. Therefore, instead of a graviton being a subatomic particle it could be considered to be a black hole. The overall gravitational attraction would be caused by a very tiny curvature imbalance within atoms.
In this model Alpha equals the compactification ratio within the twistor cone, which is approximately 1/137.
1= Hypertubule diameter at 4D interface
137= Cone’s larger end diameter at 3D interface where the photons are absorbed or emitted.
The 4D twisted Hypertubule gets longer or shorter as twisting or untwisting occurs. (720 degrees per twist cycle.)
How many neutrinos are left over from the Big Bang? They have a small mass, but they could be very large in number. Could this help explain Dark Matter?
Why did Paul Dirac use the twist in a belt to help explain particle spin? Is Dirac’s belt trick related to this model? Is the “Quantum” unit based on twist cycles?
I started out imagining a subatomic Einstein-Rosen Bridge whose internal surface is twisted with either a Right-Hand twist, or a Left-Hand twist producing a twisted 3D/4D membrane. This topological Soliton model grew out of that simple idea.
Roger’s depiction is deeply interesting. It illustrates a symmetry, which is a mathematical concept. In that sense, the depiction is itself a mathematical model. Perhaps a meta mathematical conceit.
Iguana 18:04
Wow
There are three worlds or spheres: causal (ideational), astral (energy or force}, and the physical world (frozen energy}. The causal world of ideas creates forms out of energy. Consciousness is other than energy or force which is created by vibrations on substance. The substance is consciousness. Mind is physical and emerges at the point of quantum events.
The bridge between the maths and physic🎉al is orchestrated by Schrodinger eq. "time negation" -- as memory on single-cell motile animalia that solve mazes by retrieving harvested sensory input the retracing which is arguably 'conscious,' the objective reduction bing thePrima Obsever
The only thing I can say is WOW!
The only path to an understanding of reality is with a satisfactory explanation of the measurement problem.
I agree but I think finding the graviton and unifying GR and QM would also be nice.
Mathematics is not the whole true about reality.
Penrose is one of my favorite modern scientists, along with Max Tegmark and Stephen Wolfram.
Mathematics fits the physical world so well because we invented it to describe what goes on in our physical world. For example, the Sun has always been the Sun as a physical entity before the earth even formed let alone life spawning us who invented the word Sun. Was the word Sun always there before us and we only discovered it! Even very intelligent men can be fundamentally wrong.
The world will be described more accurately than we currently describe it as we improve our ways of describing it. Our way of describing it is mathematics and when we can get what we have to describe what we see, we invent new ways of describing things; Newton and Calculus for example. If there are extra terrestrial beings, they may have their own way of describing things as accurately as we do in a language we would not recognise as mathematics as we know it. If they did describe things as we describe them, ie in human language, then we should have no concern about talking to extraterrestrials as they will speak the same languages as us as mathematics mimics human language.
The Mysterious Paradoxical Wonderfulness of Unfolding Natural Laws (...absolute, relative, and unifying....) of ...proof, evidence, and creativity....
It can be discovered by minds because consciousness of which it is a part is fundamental..
Brilliant scientist and thinker. That being said, if you want to watch a hardcore materialist physicist turn into an idealist dualist before your very eyes, ask them about mathematics. I think Roger’s stance toward mathematics shows how alluring, beautiful, exciting and even seductive math is for those who are really good at it. It doesn’t mean, however, that there’s a math heaven, just because mathematicians think math is “heavenly”. Humankind has also invented other logically abstract beautiful things, the game of Chess, for example. But just because some grandmaster chess games are historically well known for their logical abstract beauty, does not mean that human beings therefore discovered chess instead of inventing it. Part of the problem, I think, is that when mathematicians start philosophizing about mathematics, they ignore or are unaware of all the real philosophizing already done before hand about mathematics by actual philosophers, most of who pretty clearly show math to be a human invention (e.g., Russell, Whitehead, Frege, Gödel, Wittgenstein and others). A lot of this philosophical work was done in the early part of the last century
I liked your comment, but have some issues with it. Your chess example doesn't work, since all board configurations can be indexed into a logical 'encoding space' if you will.
Think of something as trivial as a CD... in that 750MB, just by counting in binary, from 0000... to 1111... all possible albums real and imaginary, every conceivable audio is there in that 'space'. Obviously, this can be extrapolated to any data structures, and their associated encoding spaces, and granted that the majority of it would be random noise, but this differs from the 'monkeys and typewriters' concept, in that the randomness of generation, is replaced by mere counting. Surely you can't deny the reality of this premise.
@@David.C.Velasquez👍🏻 I don’t understand what you said but I think it sounds right!
Great post. 👍🏻
@@dr_shrinker I hope you aren't just forgetting the '/s' at the end of your comment, lol. Seriously though, I've used the CD analogy to demonstrate how any information structure exists mathematically, in the 'platonic realm' but it seems as I get older, the less people can visualize a CD as a simple linear binary string. It should be easy to understand, to be an effective thought experiment.
@@dr_shrinker Ah yes, I've also pondered such.
"/s" at the end of a statement, signifies sarcasm. It has been widely adopted, as a convention to lessen the ambiguity inherent in text based interaction.
We need to develop an epistemological model of ‘truth’, where something can be, without necessarily existing or not existing in a testable sense - quantum objects suggest this. That way, we’re not tied up by the ontological duality.
Penrose is now a philosopher and no longer a physicist. That he’s a fabulously talented philosopher is not surprising. As he says here, whether his theory turns out to be true remains to be seen and even devising a method to test his hypothesis is beyond me.
the generation of mathemathcs from infinitesimal (zero time) to infinity (eternal time) might produce and develop energy?
Is mathematics the only way to describe reality? Could there be another language? And I'm not talking about human languages (English, Spanish,etc...)
Logic, perhaps. And I think it’s an interesting question if understanding reality will eventually require some kinds of abstract analytical tools other than mathematics we’ve yet to develop or discover.
@@longcastle4863I’ve often wondered what would happen to math of we removed a number, or added a number, to the decimal system. Like the hexadecimal or octal system, but instead of converting it to decimal system, math operates on odd numbers and only uses 9, instead of 10. Would the formulas still work without converting to decimal?
Mathematics, physics, chemistry, biology, philosophy, economics, and, sociology... religion (Bibles, Korans ...) you name it, any and all human learnings and capabilities are part of the tools trying to describe or understand or engineer the reality, and, none of them are or is absolutely exact, and of a certain degree of deviation from the trueth, if any or yes, the true face/essence of reality.
And each of them is of a certain degree of deviation from...
@@dr_shrinker All number systems, whether base 2, base 3, base 12, or whatever arrive at equivalent formulations. How do think it is that we can use computers, which operate in base 2, to do all our calculations for us? If we used base 9, the number we call 9 would be written 10. It would still be an odd number, but you could no longer distinguish odd numbers from even numbers just by looking at the last digit. That's one reason we choose to use the base 10. It's just more convenient that some other bases. But nothing about the choice of bases changes anything about fundamental number theory or any other aspect of mathematics. I was taught how translate between different bases in 8th grade. Where were you-- in juvenile detention?
The beginning reminded me of a Dutch joke: "I fit in my coat, my coat fits in my bag, so I fit in my bag."
Math. is the overall term of all quantity of Nature and there mutual manipulations.
The attribute existence is linked to the duality inanimate nature + animate nature.
23:12 what else besides quantum gravity can be attributed for that entropic value 🤔
great episode btw 👏
Spinoza got the triangle thing going for truth before my main man Roger P.
09:02 This is what the Hermetic philosophers/Hermetists know to be the truth.
Dr. Penrose only has one job these days: being interviewed.
Also, life gives a reverse victory salute to entropy.
It tries to create and organise order out of the decay/chaos.
A counter force in fact.
The more advanced and intelligent that life becomes, the stronger a counter force it will become.
Life woke up and chose belligerance.
mathematical abstraction exists between time and space, where it produces mental energy?
Similar to Yogacara Buddhism’s Three Natures
5:15 "How could it have been there before we were around?" What about the observer-participatory view of Wheeler? Maybe both physical reality and mathematical truth come into being as the result of observation. As someone who routinely makes mathematical conjectures and comes up with proofs of truth or falsity, I have to wonder. A proof is like an observation. One observes that assumptions lead to the conclusion that something must be either true or false.
Sir Roger Penrose?
Foundation of mathematics is self referencing and is a paradox, there is no such thing as a platonic world.
First define what is Math:
Math is nothing but abbreviated symbols of mind created concepts that we decided to see in our external world. We arranged them in certain self created rules (algebra and calculus and differential equations). This complex patterned conceptual combinations is what we discovered by just looking at the external world that way. It doesn’t have to be that way. 😅😅😅
Agree. We built mathematics by observing the most fundamental properties of reality, starting with the recognition that things are themselves, formulating that as the law of identity; recognizing that things cannot be not themselves or something other than themselves, formulating that as the law of non-contradiction; and recognizing that things cannot be some mixture of themselves and not themselves, formulating that as the law of the excluded middle. All of natural mathematics is built from those principles. It is not surprising that sophisticated elaborations of mathematics mirror, or are predictive of, complex aspects of reality. Both domains are founded on equivalent primitive elements. So, it is important to realize that, while mathematics is predictive of some aspects of reality, it is not a real domain in itself. There are no platonic numbers or equations floating around the ether. Mathematics is our own abstract creation. It was built to model the most primitive characteristics of reality, and so its elaborations mirror the complex aspects of reality as well.
National Treasure!
The intelegence inheriant in nature is gods will
Mathematics led science down a rabbit hole. It hasn't stopped falling yet 😂
There is a gap between Nature and ourselves. What this gap consists of seems incapable of being understood, yet it may be that understanding is moot without it.
That we can "fill" this gap with conscious and mental inference is the mystery. The mystery because while these inferences seem reliable, repeatable and consistent they are also "incomplete". Incomplete because they must be constantly cognized - that their cognition is not constant.
Their "memory" is not constant. Indeed, the fact of memory is the ultimate DECIDER that this gap exists and that it is incomplete.
Ask yourself why 1 + 1 = 2? Why is 2, 2? 4 - 2 = 2 as well isn't it? So 2 isn't just 2 it is also the question that leads to 2. It is a unity within a plurality. In other words the same cognition can be realized in different ways. One's memory of 2 depends on one's context, but also on a single context. This "coherency" of 2 exists side by side with other coherencies, conscious as well as mental. Conscious coherencies like the sun 🌞, food and so on; and mental coherencies like language and math. Coherencies held in revolving suspense by memory, consciousness and thought.
While math provides answers, precise answers, life does not. Life relies on short term answers that are good enough for some and not good enough for other people.
While long term answers are sought after, no ultimate answer is ever provided for in life. The fact of death makes science and math mere holograms of eternity or infinity: completeness. Holograms of vanity.
Is the 2 of 1+ 1 the same as the 2 of 4 - 2? What about the 2 of 4 × 1/2? Are they all the same 2? How do you know? Are you sure? In the same way, am i the same person i was when i was a baby, a teenager, an adult? Can i be sure? Can you be more sure than i am?
Is your ability to encapsulate/model the true world, dependant upon your brain cavity, mental capacity and IQ ?
What is the difference between modelling the true world to a certain degree of precision and then demanding a model with greater precision ?
Does that greater precision mean the new model is correct or the old model is less correct, or neither model is correct and simpler a better approximation ?
At what level of precision does an approximation become a true reflection and does 'infinite precision' become the 'true foundational model' of spacetime itself ?
How exactly do you physically measure to 'infinite precision' anyway ?
Even more of a pressing question when you consider the bit length of modern computer systems and the errors that the level of its precision introduces.
Especially if using AI to resolve such questions, it will always be bound within the limits of its hardwares precision and/or the time it takes to model the universe, which in itself depends upon the amount of information used to approximate the universe, using mathematical shorthand representations that we can actually conceive, being incapable of processing all of the information in the universe at once.
It is the nature of that shorthand representation, to evade the need to know everything at once, that I find fascinating in itself.
Its akin to simple fractal formulae revealing an infinite harmony.
Onto the information paradox of black holes & spacetime.
Rather than assume and confuse approaching the speed of light, rather consider approaching a domain where time comes to a standstill.
The inevitable conlusion being that it remains close to or very near to year 0 of the universe, relative to everywhere else.
In that context, not only do you have to consider the 3d to 2d translation of the holographic prinicple developed from quantum mechanics and desitter space on the surface and/or through the bulk,
but also consider the 4d to 2d translation of that same holographic principle when approaching year zero at an event horizon.
When you do consider that, the information paradox is presented with another problem.
How can an entity approach a time destination, located before it came into existance ?
Especially of you want to state that both 'time' and 'space' are in fact the same fabric called 'spacetime'.
The only way around the 4d-2d and 3d-2d paradox of the compound spacetime idea,
is to envision the event horizon as not merely storing current information,
but also being/containing a relativisitic history of the whole of creation.
That also throws up the notion of multiple black holes all having the same year 0 origin in time and/or locked to a specific time/epoch ID as a descendant.
Which necessitates 2d shells expanding whilst being filled internally and externally with 3d/4d spacetime.
The notion of precision is interesting. Carlo Rovelli theorises that space itself is quantised, and therefore can not be infinitely divided.
Is there a world where wisdom and intelligence live outside the human brain? so there is also mathematics.
Mathematics. Abreviated = Maths. So the s is essential to encompass the whole.
Penrose is great but...why these questions about WHAT EXISTS? The answer is, EVERYTHING EXISTS !!! Why am I the only one who sees this clearly???
👍🏻 makes sense to be. It’s too blatantly obvious, it confuses those who overthink everything.
Everything exists, and nothing does not exist.
There are something’s and nothing. If nothing were something, it wouldn’t be nothing; but more something!
On a deeper level, it could be argued that “everything “ Is arbitrary…Everything could consist of one thing or infinite things, and your statement would still hold true.
Gravity is an alarm shouting man, walk towards entropy....make a new pact with life.
Do physicists know about this guy?
The universe is the Godheads consciousness and we are a part of it as is everything
Well, we need the mathematicians and the physicists but we then must seek out the philosophers.
It's amazing how words describe exactly what we think and feel, like "love" or "cold" or "angry". I think words are the most fundamental part of the universe!
words can describe exactly what we think and feel ? Hmm?
I have never encountered a situation where words could describe Love .
everyone knows what it is via their own subjective experience but i've never met anyone that could transmit the experience of love through words . words cannot even adequately describe the taste of an avocado which is a physical object . only the taste can provide what the words were attempting to describe in words .
Try to define the word LIFE, and a bunch of biologists will tell you "but ..."
The word NOTHING, is it a thing?
@@siriosstar4789 I thought I was making an obvious joke, perhaps not so obvious..
7.83
I use to do it too. You like 10108
Feedback loop
Proposed something got a Nobel
Proposing a prediction
Won a Nobel prize
Wut?
Existence only realy exists in the present
Math was born with the first atoms 1 2 3 etc,we just discovered it
24:52 the Greek writing above the archway is very messed up and very invalid, which seems surprising for such a distinguished looking building. For example, one word has a sigma "ς" in the middle of a word, but that form of sigma is specifically for the trailing end of Greek words, so in the middle of a word it should always be the other sigma, "σ". Anyway, I think that bad writing is trying to derive from "Αεί ο Θεός ο Μέγας Γεωμετρεί", i.e. God the Great Measurer.
Much of mathematics has been invented to match the world.
Suppose you have a stone and another stone. Now you have double.
So expressed using symbols 1+1 = 2
Are mathematics the same around the universe? 12 x12 = 144?
SR wrong due to reference frame mixing and bad math. As “c” is absolute- the same in any reference- SR/GR are rightly S Absolutism G Absolutism- not relativity. Galilean relative motion has the earth approaching- expanding at 16 feet per second per second constant acceleration- the released object (apple) contrary to the oft taught ‘model’; gravity. “The Final Theory: Rethinking Our Scientific Legacy “, Mark McCutcheon for proper physics.