Why were Victorian Hips Controversial?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 23 ก.ค. 2024
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The curvaceous hips at the turn of the 20th century have long been an iconic part of that fashionable silhouette. But where did they come from? And when did they deflate? Answering these simple questions led me into learning about yet another controversial Victorian garment. As it turns out, the return of the bustle and the addition of hip pads was relatively short lived. At least in terms of the obvious and heavily padded versions. But that didn't stop newspapers from printing articles lamenting the damage they were doing to women. Nor did it stop men from adding in their own hip padding just a few years later.
Turns out, the prominent hips that had emerged by the end of 1897 were considered downright dangerous by some and necessary by others. They developed as a response to the changing silhouette and emphasis on the waist. Along with the new flat fronted corsets, the fullness of the body had shifted its location over the last few years. And despite our modern day connotations of hips being a feminine feature, some (men) even took to accusing the new hips of being mannish! Something about Greek Gods and the like.
This era was often concerned with ANY bodily adjustments- whether it was corsets, high heels, hair pieces, or heavy skirts. This sort of fashion was claimed to be dangerous to morals and health. Hip pads were claimed to be stifling and restrictive when it came to medical health, for example. As for ethics and morals? They said too much interest in fashion signaled vanity and weak will. These women looked "unnatural" and angular- or to some, completely comical!
Even when the hips did deflate to a "natural" figure and tight skirt, they were still often lightly padded. Advertisements for bustles and hip pads (or hip girdles) continue well into the Edwardian era of the 1900s. They just emphasized shaping and subtlety. But padding for women had established itself by that point, not just as a way to achieve an extreme fashionable silhouette, but as a way to smooth and correct or simply augment. The complaints seem to have dissipated by that time, and the complainants of previous years were content with the return to a more "natural" silhouette. Though I'm sure they found some other issue with tight skirts or large hats soon after.
🖼 Black bustle pad: www.antiquedress.com/item4989.htm
🖼 Wire bustle: augusta-auction.com/auction?v...
🖼 Bustle pad: fidmmuseum.pastperfectonline....
🖼 1774: collection.maas.museum/object...
🖼 Princess Gown: www.thehenryford.org/collecti...
🖼 Hip Girdle: patents.google.com/patent/US6...
🖼 NYPL: digitalcollections.nypl.org/
🖼 Met: www.metmuseum.org/art/librari...
00:00 Introduction
03:04 Big Sleeves
05:57 Return of the Bustle
08:06 Dangerous Curves
16:18 Deflation
18:15 Men Too?
20:34 Building the Figure
25:34 Making a Hip Pad
27:24 Poetry
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Nothing says double standards like a poem that both mocks women for using padding and shudders in horror at the thought of women mocking men for using padding.
This is like finding the onion nowadays and thinking that's a level headed average perspective of the times. They were pointing out the madness in the fashions, and contrast and juxtaposition is a tool for that. If you translate it into modern day speech its really funny.
They understood the double standards, thus the poem.
That one did have the scent of satire, to me.
when women were women and men were 30% cotton by volume
*Woman dresses fashionably*. Men: “How dare you dress like that, you vain harlot!”
*Woman dresses non-fashionably*. Men: “How dare you dress like that, you ugly harlot!”
*Man dresses fashionably*. Men: “How dare- Frank, what’re you..? Well, I guess it’s ok if Frank does it…”
Why is Frank our oddball friend? We all seem to have one no matter the era.
+
For us gals it’s definitely always been d*mned if you do and d*mned if you don’t🙄
Yep! For as long as there have been women wearing clothes, there have been men telling them that they're doing it wrong.
@@kohakuaiko to be frank it's because
I find it funny (and mildly infuriating), that men are /still/ acting this way. Following fashion, makeup and such is being fake, or lying, but going without is ugly and un-feminine.
Yep. It's very similar to the "women should be natural and not wear makeup- but naturally beautiful, not tired"
Exactly. Plus ça change…
@@NicoleRudolph another reason why im so happy with the current intense eye Makeup Trends. I hated the "No make up" make Up era, it's just led to completely warped expectations for natural faces.
I remember Not being able to be Out without concealer without someone asking me If i was ill. No im Not, matt. I Just have eyeshadows. It's genetic. And No, Kim Kardashian is Not Makeup free in that picture (laughy hysterically)
@@annabeinglazy5580 i know! really! "I don't like make up" then they see a celeb w/o make up and it's like "woof, woof" and I'm just smh at my old roomie who would spend an hour trying to make it look like she wasn't wearing a thing, but still got makeup smears on all her clothes
100% Also, it tells us something about what they want women to look like. They must have this ideal sort of image in their head that hardly any woman could emulate without adding something "unnatural". Seems they need to adjust their expectations.
This reminds me a lot of the like "leggings as pants" struggle and men finding makeup "dishonest" like settle down it's not even about you.
My son was very critical about makeup until he saw some video about women without it and realized it is hard to TELL men from women and some of them needed it to feel good ABOUT themselves (hide scars or blemishes). Then he calmed down. It was only what I had been trying to tell him be kind.
@@suzannehartmann946 most men like women with a little makeup and many don’t like a lot… they don’t want it coming off on them.
This reminds me of pple disliking the Kardashian ‘diaper’ hips. Controversial hips still very relatable and relevant
@@suzannehartmann946its hard to tell men from women without makeup…. What? Lol. This is just such a weird comment and not true..
Men have unsolicited comments during every period of history, I suppose. I think about a meme I saw about lesbians and cishet men saying "without me??" 😂
As for the earlier comment, I'd just guess that it was a young boy who didn't know how to tell the difference.
The biggest difference between the padding of the past and photoshop and plastic surgery today is that back then it was very common knowledge that this padding was expected to be used to achieve a particular silhouette, while now people expect people's actual physical bodies to match the silhouette and if you use padding or other artificial means to achieve it you get mercilessly attacked for lying about your body which only makes people want to hide it more
you should do a video of 'historical trends men hate and then love and then hate...'
to really drive home the point of how it doesn't actually matter how we dress or chose to decorate ourselves. it's not a battle we can win nor have we ever won it
“Social barbarism” when referencing hip pads absolutely THREW me into hysterical laughter 🤣🤣 fantastic video as always!
I rather had the thought that the man who wrote that criticism was predisposed to see bronze sculptures of naked Greek men when viewing a lot of things.
@@agcons yeah! Good point
@@agcons hahahaha ur so right
That is all so fascinating!!! We’re so used to associating hips with the feminine that it’s mind-boggling to think of it being called “too manish”!
RIGHT
Like the most idealised body type for men these days is basically a martini glass.
Body builders still exist, with the sort of physiques that were so lionised in Ancient Greece, but are only considered hot/aesthetically aspirational by a subsect of the population.
I would enjoy seeing what those old time dudes think about the Kardashians. Would be interesting.
Yet another case of men dissing women's fashion only to start wearing it later themselves. Those manly hips! Thank you for the research, this was both interesting and hilarious.
IDID ponder if perhaps some cross dressing fellows contributed to this !
At this point in the video my sister exclaimed, "The HIPocrisy!"
@12:09 hahaha 😂 too funny..but as I was listening I started to ask who is writing these articles? Perhaps naive young fellows making their way in the newspaper world? Maybe not knowing what women's bodies actually look like 😉
You're welcome for high heels, ladies. Don't act like women never did the same.
^ "He's out of line, but he's not wrong."
Okay as a classical archaeologist I have to say some stuff about the "ancient Greek statue" part. The very muscular man (like the famous Hercules Farnese) is a fashion of the hellenistic period. You can see that in early classical era Greece men were often depicted thinner and softer. There is also a regional aspect to it. I recommend looking at the Pergamon altar for super muscular dudes. This was not the trend everywhere though.
Interesting! Not surprisingly, the person writing the article in 1898 didn't know the difference and I'm sure just ignored all of the other examples they saw that didn't fit their image. I tried to pull images of what they mentioned in the article only. The misusage of classical era imagery and culture throughout the 18th and 19th centuries to further an agenda would be a fascinating topic of research! Cause, wow, did they take a leap of logic.
@@NicoleRudolph Oh yeah, they just took whatever they liked an ran with it 😂 it's still being done tbh. Especially the notion of the white statue is sometimes used in white supremacist circles, although we know that both Greek and roman statues were painted.
@@sarahk8053 right, the supremacist circles pooping their pants over the paint on ancient statues is just... so hilarious. And not fragile and snowflaky at all! ;-)
Pecos Bill! His girlfriend, Slewfoot Sue, wanted a bustled wedding dress and ended up bouncing away after his horse bucked her off. I had no idea that was tied into contemporary clothing satire.
I remember seeing a cartoon of that when I was a little kid 😂
Aw, that poetry laments the possibility of women treating men the way men treated women: "I'm going to assault you with a pin, Sir, because I don't think your hips are in fact where you indicate they are, and How Dare You (tm) deceive me when you are in fact supposed to please me!"
@15:00 that immediately made me think of the Cinderella animated movie with the bouncy pads on the skirts of the stepsisters' dressed. I've always thought that image was so funny, I guess there's historical evidence for the gag😅
More evidence to my thought that Cinderella could have been set in the late 1880s. And obviously Cinderella's dress, while fabulous, was out of style (looks 1860ish to my untrained eyes). Because her fairy godmother is immortal and fae and what do they care about mortal fashion.
OHMYGOD IT WASN'T JUST ME
I thought of the *exact same visual*!!
I've been thinking a lot about the parallel between the hip injections/hip implants that influencers tend to get and the shape of the S-bend corset. The way that you can identify these "fake" hips because they start right below the waist, not lower and nearer to the hip bone which is where hips naturally start. I recently reproduced what I think was an early 1900s corset my friend found and while it fit me in the waist and ribcage it actually is really loose in the hip no matter how much I tighten it-- and I realized I don't think this was a fit problem and I was going to need to alter it to fit me, because the hip shape of this corset actually just balloons out right below the waist in this very kardashian fashion lol. I think that maybe the "slim thick" silhouette we tend to see today with the extremely flat stomach and ballooning hips is actually really similar to the 1900s S-bend corset silhouette, just using different technologies?
You’re right, they are quite similar, just with one being more permanent. And yes, you were probably perfectly accurate in your recreation as s-bend corsets would have needed hip pads to accentuate the hip spring, but it should be fine to alter the curve of the hips a little if you find them really hard to fill out.
My high hip (2 to 3" below my waist) is 12" larger than my waist and then the lower hip is the same measurement. I've got a very short waist (only 1 inch gap between my ribs and pelvis) so my hips do jut out quite quickly below my waist. Always have, its just the way I'm built. Guess that makes my real hips "fake" by that standard?
Some corsets are meant to be worn with padding under them to fill out extra space.
It's literally the modern 'slim-thick' silhouette except 120 years in the past! xD Thank you for this interesting video essay and the excellent dramatic reading of that poetry at the end :')
Fascinating! Padded hips were too manly. I imagine the naysayers would suffer apoplexy over today’s desire for large hips and glutes with a “natural” waspish waist.
I’m very excited to see the finished ensemble, as the silhouette is lovely! Thank you for the trip down the rabbit hole. Wishing you love, light and good health.
Wow! This was fascinating! I always wondered about the part in Anna Karenina when Karenin talks about some lads thic thighs (he envys them) thinking that to be very stereotypicaly girlish body proportions. And now I learn that hips and thighs are manly?? And men used to pad their hips? Such a cool piece of history you've found, amazing research! And Karenins crave for lushious thighs makes so much more sense now!
@@agimagi2158 I’m thinking of Rugby players, as they have a rather similar shape as those Greek athletic statues (and their short shorts mean that their thighs are very easily visible). And I just… sure, the glutes are big, and the thighs are definitely big, but the hips? Not so much. They’re one of the straightest parts of that entire area. When I think of thicc dudes, I think thick thighs, not larger hips.
I keep wondering exactly that - how they would react with today's slim thicc that requires deadly surgery to achieve. I mean, if they were flipping their shit with just clothing......
That’s what I was thinking! Their heads would explode if they saw Kim K 🤯
@@katherinemorelle7115 Oh whoops my stupid brain fogged by flu medication should not be let run lose in the comment section. I ment to post my comment as its own and not as a reply to yours, I'm sorry! But yes, you are absolutely right hips are the last thing I would think of as manly!
In some ways the padded bustle is quite practical because it's basically a nice, soft seat cushion that you carry with you wherever you go (perfect for sitting in cafes or on park benches) and would also protect one's bottom from being pinched. Not only that, but it's well in keeping with the present fashion for having a big badonkadonk, so I am rather suprised that bustles haven't staged a comeback.
It'd be great for backpacking; no need to bring the extra grams of a sitpad! 😂
I actually need a couple for LARPing, Cosplay, and Renaissance Faires. And I highly Recommend a Bodice if you're more busty because unlike a bra you can wear it over your clothes and try to pass it off as Dark Academia.
Could you imagine the whining from dude bros on the internet if they did? These guys can't even handle women wearing eyeliner.
Today you can get surgery for the effect. Yay……
@@mysterylovescompany2657 this is such an unexpectedly niche comment on a video about a totally different niche. I love it! That said, I think a bustle might weigh more than my sit pad 😅
These fairly short-lived fashion headlines remind me of things like the 2 year period when I was leaving HS and entering college and all anyone talked about was “leggings aren’t pants!”
I the immortal words of Angie Dickinson to Johnny Carson, “I dress for women. I undress for men.”
Hmmm. I undres for bubblebaths. Am I doing it wrong?
@@MissCaraMint Possibly. I have all three in my bath.
@@hakirby I might have seen some card prints of that.
That’s a good one
Yes!!! As far as bombshells from my childhood, Angie Dickinson often comes to mind!!
2021: the silhouette returns. The padding is now added to the body itself.
Old timey BBL
embrace cottagecore and wear a buttpad
Exactly what I thought seeing the illustration at 8:20 Sure looks like Kim K etal
@@codename495 lmao
The super muscular legs with the “fragile” waist look reminds me of the guys who look so top heavy because they focus all their body building above the waist and look like they might just fall in on themselves. So I get it dude
Some women cannot get super muscular legs without their waist getting smaller.
The chicken leg guys. 🤣🤣🤣
The Johnny Bravos. 😂
Love that it's 2021 and some of these ridiculous comments from men hundreds of years ago sound like they were pulled right out of the comment section of any woman's makeup/fashion post. You mean women wear things and do things purely because...they enjoy them??? HOW DARE THEY IM GONNA YELL ABOUT IT AND CALL THEM VAIN AND SLUTTY AND UGLY instead of just going to therapy and minding my business.
Sigh. Men, so many are just spoiled little boys with ALL the toys ! 🙄
"Go to therapy and mind your own biz" is now going to be my go-to comeback 😅
This should have been titled "Dangerous curves ahead"... 🤣
Well, I think we can all agree that the hips don’t lie
"Men won't find this attractive!"
Really?
How did your great-grandmother become your great-grandmother if she didn't have an A game?
👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
Dowry.
But seriously, it's the last name that is the thing her A game was for 😉
🤣🤣🤣
what I find most funny about the whole argument about what (straight) men will and won't like about what women look like, is the hilarious pretense that they're so picky as all that! Straight women tend to be far more selective than straight men, which stands to reason in terms of the comparative consequences of choosing poorly. For women the stakes were far higher. So straight women statistically are less likely to be interested in any given guy, than straight men are, to be interested in any given woman. Which means it's what the women like and want, that is the more important part of the equation, so long as everyone's free to choose or decline.
As a person who naturally has this body shape and has been overtly sexualized as a woman over it my entire life, this video fascinates me 😂😂
Right? I was expecting them to be upset that hips were being revealed and skirts were too tight. But, no! They were somehow upset women were COVERING their hips! Now I wonder when that changed. When exactly did hips become over sexualized in our modern way?
I'm imagining all of the women who naturally have wide hips and large butts who didn't need padding when their figure was in then got yelled at for wearing unfashionable padding once that kind of figure went out
Same here, curves since my early teens and all sorts of negative attention for it. If I'm understanding the articles properly though, the 1960s Twiggy/1990s model form was the expectation for women back then? Seems women simply can't win no matter how they're built
@@NicoleRudolph I think it was racism. Black women were oversexualized yet declared masculine for being having large hips, especially fat Black women, and so when white women started copying them with skirts they needed a way to talk about it in polite, fashionable society without sounding like their parents and grandparents because it was right before Jim Crow.
@@biguattipoptropica Sara Baartman
The mental image of sticking a hat pin into a man’s hip pad is the absolute best.
Hips don't lie. Or, er, I guess they do? Great video, thanks for this. All that "manly hips" talk brought Walt Whitman to mind: "But the expression of a well-made man appears not only in his face,/It is in his limbs and joints also, it is curiously in the joints of his hips and wrists,/It is in his walk, the carriage of his neck, the flex of his waist and knees, dress does not hide him,/The strong sweet quality he has strikes through the cotton and broadcloth..."
This is so interesting! Firstly, how certain styles were always judged because they made women appear different than certain people wanted/expected them to be (which I guess is pretty obvious but still an interesting case) and therefore calling them "unnatural", "unbecoming", "too manly" or whatever but also how new styles could be both widely adopted AND widely judged as strange even back then, made me think of the discussions about high rise vs low rise pants and similar controversies today.
"there are no angular blacksmiths" is my new favourite unhinged quote from history
Very interesting. I hadn't given much thought to men padding and otherwise changing their shape for fashion, but of course they do and have for centuries. That's why the average modern man tends to look his best in a well cut suit, there can be a lot of layers of padding and stiffening in there.
Historically, in the days of knee breaches, there are countless cartoons about men padding their calves (to supply the deficiencies of nature), and, in Europe at least, it almost went without saying that of course cavalry officers would wear a corset. That set me off Googling about male equestrians (I'm Ace, my motives were pure). Male ballet dancers have massive thighs and male equestrians have pretty muscular thighs as well, which makes sense when you think about it, and I could well imagine that if men's clothing got close enough to show the shape of the hip and thigh there would be men conscious that skinny thighs meant they weren't rich and leisured enough to spend hours on a horse.
I'm just remembering as well seeing in the Museum of London, the pink tights of an Edwardian music hall star (female), I think they were know as fleshings (the tights not the artiste), they were very generously padded in the thigh and hip. They must have added several inches to either thigh.
The "bouncing hips" immediately brings to mind Cinderella's stepsisters 🤣 their ballgowns!
Lol
Couldn't help nearly snorting in laughter once the men adopted the fashion. Truthfully, much of male folly has been attributed to females historically. (High heels, anyone?) Overall, it is interesting how self centered many of these offended writer are and how hard they try to justify their dislike of a fad instead of just simply stating "Nope, don't like it." Health threats against the wandering wombs abound whenever some guy simply didn't like what he was seeing and wasn't permitted to just be petulantly stubborn about new fashions.
That's interesting. I've been doing some research into fascist ideology and the tactic of calling their foes both strong and weak at the same time seems to be a staple in these authorian mindsets..
Fascinating!
I just read Ur Fascism a few weeks ago and I totally didn't consider this. Interesting :)
Intersectional class struggle was on their mind... While marching opposite direction.
@@fionafiona1146 that sweet intersection between soft homophobia and benevolent sexism..
@@nimrodthewise836 pink triangles and "Mutter Kreuz" it's mind-boggling
On the issue of the straight front, slim waist, and jutting hips being manish, I was also taken aback when you said that, but if you survey illustrations of men's military uniforms of the general era, you can see it. That is as long as they don't include a frock coat. Even illustrations of early 20th-century field uniforms that are much less "dressy" show men as having a torso that curves down to a slender waist above "strong" hips and legs.
It is very telling about the way men are hard wired when they say that women dress for men's attention, equally, when they are told that women dress for the view of other women they think that women are trying to sexually attract other women.
Yes, so much yes
Its the way that because they perceive our bodies as inherently sexual, everything we do with them must have a sexual reason behind it, from wearing padding to trousers to hairstyles etc.
I think we should also note that men see themselves that way. Everything they wear IS mostly for womanly attention, so it must be the same for women right? they're thinking the same way, right?
@@Udontkno7 True. LoL, I didn't know those cargo shorts and Zeppelin tee were for me. Shucks!
Sad but true. My one sister, petite but busty, used to say she wore make-up for other women, not men - the men weren't looking at her face!
And as this video was about to start I got an ad for a "cami" (camisole) that 'fixed' fit issues by smoothing out waist weight.
The more things change, the more they stay the same !!!!
There was always a controversy over women's fashion throughout the 19th and early 20th century. This makes me think of how men in the Regency era criticized the wide brimmed bonnets, then it was the huge crinoline hoops skirts, then it was bustles, to tightlacing... etc. It still happens today. I believe it has a lot to do with gender politics and patriarchy as whole.
It's so annoying how men get so upset about everything women decide to wear. There are satirical caricatures for every era of 19th century women's fashion.
Narrow skirts? Eww.
Full skirts? Eww.
High bust? Eww.
Low bust? Eww.
Seriously it's kinda strange how men get so obsessive about women's fashion.
How dare women not walk around buck nekkid? Of course, being scantily clad then means your a daughter of Eve trying to lead poor innocent males astray.
I have almost a foot difference between my hipline + waist; when I was young, & needed approval, I was scorned for having "a fat arse" + nothing fashionable ever sat right - now that I'm past my social prime my figure has become the one so idealised that women are having major operations, + risking their lives, to achieve it...& I still can't win socially, because I get accused of wearing shapewear + then receive major bitchiness when I say that I'm not.
Ain't that just so typical? 😑
Don't get me wrong, this isn't a humblebrag; I'm aging, skinnyfat AF with thick arms, & a goth so not most ppl's cup of tea, anyway.
I just happen to naturally be built like a character from A Bug's Life ( 35", 25" & 34.4"), at a time when fashionable artifice has overtaken the norm, so ppl have come to _expect_ illusion & trickery.
And some of them get really angry if they think you're lying about it.
@@mysterylovescompany2657 Loving the Bug's Life comment! 😂 Why did the current trend wait to come into style until my 30s? I can finally find pants that give me enough room in the hips and bum, but I don't want people to think I am chasing youth fashion. I just want pants that don't fall down.
@@mysterylovescompany2657 Oh, I'm an hourglass who wants to be a pear. One of my grandma's friends has that "built like a Bug's Life character" body shape and I'm so jealous! 😂
It's fine though, one can always wear fluffier skirts.
My confusion about Victorian women is that they are never shown to be pregnant and yet they had huge families - 8 kids would not be uncommon. Did they wear hip pads when pregnant? I’d like to see that pregnant silhouette more often in film/tv period dramas too because all we ever see is non-pregnant women.
Women far enough into pregnancy to show went into confinement at home, they would wear looser dresses and likely not corseting unless it was a “ maternity corset” which existed. Also, no woman would want to be photographed visably pregnant, and illustrators didn’t draw them out unless it was a catalogue Selling a maternity corset.
I’m in love with your blouse, the style and colour and as for your earrings. Omg they are to die for.
Those newspaper clippings were solid gold! I laughed and laughed! I think “To overcome this the poor thin men whose vanity is in inverse ratio to their circumference borrowed hip pads” may be the funniest thing I’ve ever read in historical copy, and I’m a historian; I’ve read a lot!
When's the era that a big bust and a belly with no waist or hips is socially acceptable? 😂😂😂 also, your earrings are lovely!
And a flat ass... Would ve good to know when to travel to in time
1870s! The bust is large and low and there's a very pronounced belly curve. Then you pad out or even put a bustle in back so you don't have to worry about what's happening back there.
@@AnniCarlsson the 80s+90s was the flat ass hey day.
@@AnniCarlsson flat butts were in from the 1910’s-1940’s, then again 1960’s-2000’s.
@@mastersnet18 no not really. If they where I would have fitted in the jeans.
So much commentary that boils down to ‘how dare people criticise a fashion in such a way, it’s so ridiculous and just mean!’ But honestly, if you’ve never seen a fashion come in that you absolutely hated, and not ranted about it in exactly the same sort of way, you’ve managed to spend life walking around with your eyes closed 😂
We love your living pillow
I’m always interested in how language changes so quickly. Each era has their own little sayings that then fall out of fashion. For example, I had no idea why “Toot, Gabriel, toot!” was added at the end of the second poem. I don’t know why the angel Gabriel is being called upon to blow his horn, and yet, a hundred years or so ago, it would have made perfect sense!
It's a reference to the End Of Days.
The writer was essentially being a drama queen. 😉
@@mysterylovescompany2657 gotcha! Thanks for letting me know it was on the dramatic side!
@@DawnOldham what a tosspot, amIrite? 😉
The number of times I paused and/or rewound to read the news clippings and advertisements probably _doubled_ the time it took me to finish the video: well worth it though as there were a number of somewhat humorous ones included.
Love this vid. The poetry was a Scream 🤣😂🤣😂 men mock women and then do the same thing but now it's "Okay" cause it's Men. Story of the human race!
Fascinating! Im not an expert on the subject but I have observed more women than men having large hips and thighs. Makes me wonder if the first author had a skinny shanked wife and had never seen any other woman naked. But what happened to your earring?
really depends on the population, historically. Some populations, more women had pendulous swingy breasts. Some, more women were basically flat-chested. Same with hips and thighs and buttocks: some populations historically had a lot of women with very amplified curves, and some populations prized women who were more slat-shaped, and even accentuated a stick-straight, flat-chested figure in the clothing.
@@kaiwannagoback5712 I'm not talking about what is "prized" or accentuated by clothing. I'm talking about the actual anatomy of men vs women regarding hip and thigh size. Women have wider pelvises than men and carry more adipose tissue on their butts and thighs on average throughout history. That's scientific fact for homo sapiens regardless of what is in fashion. My facetious conjecture is that the first author may not have seen many women's hips and thighs because of the voluminous skirts commonly worn at the time and is therefore not a good judge of what shape is "womanly" or "manly."
You did all the work and we had all the pleasure. This was so well done and charmingly presented. Thank you.
I think I said this myself, though it's possible that I read it somewhere long ago, and it should be carved in stone in the fashion hall of fame:
"Sooner or later,
Fashion makes Fools of us all".
The most striking thing for me about all this is the notion of the "perfect" figure - male or female, apparently - and the rejection of any notion of diversity among human beings. In the twentieth century, for example, this ideal went from boyish (1920s) to curvaceous (1950s) to boyish again (1960s) and then in the 1980s we had shoulder pads (mannish?)... Whatever era we live in, our body shape is expected to conform to some manufactured and shifting ideal. Will we ever simply celebrate the fact that people come in all different shapes, sizes and proportions?
OMG! I need a hip girdle! My "figure deficiency" is having hip dips or saddlebags. This is the period solution I need for that era. Thank you! I really enjoy these videos.
Please don't feel insecure about your hip dips when wearing 21st century clothing!
Thanks for the kind words, I never give them a second thought in modern clothes.
It's so weird to me hip dips are "out" now. I never thought mine looked bad (and still don't), so it was wild when someone told me they're "not good" lollll
@@carameldare my thoughts exactly
Almost everyone has some amount of hip dip. It’s just anatomy. Don’t feel bad about it, it’s how humans are made.
So again men telling women they shouldn't do something because men don't like it
Men: "Adhere to the sexy standards of our time."
Women: *wear fashionable silhouette*
Men: "not like that. "
and then proceed to like the thing anyway.
Everyone alive today with ancestors from this part of the world is the descendent of a man who did like the hip pads.
My first memories of railway stations involve steam trains! (Not as museum exhibits). I’ve often wondered what ladies found to talk about during interminable afternoon teas. Now I think I know…
Loved it! I save you, Bernadette, and Abby for my Sunday watching. This was awesome! (Please tell us what happened to your right earring, though!)
It got tangled. Then detangled around 13th minute, providing the greatest relief I could ever expect from a piece of jewelry, ONLY TO TANGLE AGAIN. True traitor, but adorable despite the sneaky crime.
Am I overreacting the earring? Yes, yes I am 😅
Thank you!!! It was driving me nuts.
I'm unsure if you misspoke, but "Mme. Wade" means her title was Madame, not Mademoiselle. Mademoiselle is abbreviated "Mlle."
Haven't seen a comment about that while scrolling so : your style in this video is amazing, Nicole ! I was mesmerised by the red of the eyeshadow and the lip that matched the armchair behind your back, and the contrast with the light blue-grey of the shirt and earrings. Exquisite !
The picture at 21:38 particularly illustrates something that I've noticed in other fashion plates: that the woman illustrated seems to have a severe swayback. In this illustration, it looks like something that was done in order to make the front of the figure flat: pull the hips back, pull the upper body *way* back, thus flattening the front curves and accentuating the back curves in what looks like a very painful way.
Ngl I’m kinda hoping you do a tutorial for that LOVELY pad… it seems so much simpler than making three separate pads for my butt and hips…
I have just spent the last two day binge watching all your content and it has made me thoroughly nostalgic for my university days. Thank you so much for these delightful lecture series.
Excellent and interesting talk, as always, thank you.
I love your rabbit holes. Thank you.
Nicole your makeup and your earrings and your shirt go *so* well together. Your look is ✨mwah✨💕🌸
Fascinating information! Thank you for your delightful presentation!
I adore this channel. I get so excited when I see you have uploaded another video. I have never heard anything about this controversy. Oh, the shock of the padded hip. The poem at the end was the icing on the cake.
This is SO FASCINATING!! thank you for sharing your research with us!
A WONDERFUL video as always. Thankyou so much Nicole for the enourmous amount of research, time energy that goes into your videos. I hope you enjoy making them as much as we love watching them and soaking up the wisdom of Madame Rudolph!
Loved this!! Thank you. 😄
Thanks as always!
*@Nicole Rudolph - I love that you are able to reference all of these very old publications! Is there any way you could show us how to pull these up on the web or does your access require so sort of membership or subscription?*
*I would genuinely love to read publications of those days…* 💗💜💗💜💗💜
*Thanks in Advance* 😉
Another excellent rabbit hole!
Omg, Nicole! Your look in this is killer! The earrings are giving me life 🤩🤩🤩
This is such a great way to experience history. To really understand these fashions, what better way, than to rebuild these garments? Even actors describe period costumes as forcing them to move, stand, and sit differently. Looking at the evolution of women's fashion also goes a long way to explain why we don't seem to know what ordinary women's bodies look like.
Reminds me of the shoulder pad of the 80s. By contrast the hips looks small… and mannish.
I think in this example by beefing up the hips the waist looked even smaller which was the point during this period.
I have still, to this day, never seen a cosplayer actually achieve the bum-padding wagging and wiggling like a Disney character. I want to see a true wobble butt cosplay. Why is it ok for Mrs Incredible, but not for the 1800's
Check out Detox the drag Queen. She’s got that look down.
I come here for your great research and explanations, but I must add…that dress and earrings combo with your coloring and hair are gorgeous!
You had me at "my living pillow Bailey." Subscribed.
Fascinating topic!
Nicole. I’ve not given you the love and respect you deserve! I love all your videos. And shoe designs! Your presentation of the deep research and experience you exhibit is so..respectable. And I love it!!! I mean large hips being mannish!?!? Ha!
I so enjoy your rabbit holes.
Hi Nicole, I love your educational historical fashion videos! This comment, however, is to ask if you could do a video on your "regular dress" clothes. Where do you get your pieces, and how many are made or vintage?
Thank you for sharing your research and knowledge. Your 'Edwardian' corset is a beauty. Do you think that Queen Alexandra was the Muse for this shift in corsetry?
I'm laughing at the 7-yard hem because I'm currently working on a circle skirt and I measured the hem when I was going "will this ever end" while hemming it and it's 7.4 yards and I went around it twice at the top and bottom of the one-inch hem. It's a monster and I want to embroider a design all along it by hand, plus other, more showy embroidery I'm currently working on on the body of the skirt itself. It's a serious work in progress that's still getting trotted out to my local faire for this and the next 11 weekends
It's so frustrating that men still think women dress and frankly exist to attract men and be beautiful for them. Ah no, women dress for themselves and exist for themselves. When men say 'that isn't very attractive' I've started asking what makes them think I am trying to attract them.
Is that what you tell your cats?
Covid taught me I apparently mostly dress for other women lol. I'm happily in a relationship with the same guy for 15 years and I'm glad when he thinks I look good, which is in most things (maybe not the oversized sweats that are a regular part of my at home wardrobe XD). However, it's mostly women, and some men/ non binary who are interested in fashion / clothes , who appreciate the looks I worked hard to put together and deals that I got on those items etc, ... And even more so makeup... The guys I know don't appreciate makeup at all.
@@moaningpheromones it's what I tell my girlfriend
@@moaningpheromones sometimes those old, tired jokes, are unintentionally ironic, so thanks for sharing the "old cat lady" one! Seriously though, more "cat ladies" had husbands once. Now they prefer cats.
@@moaningpheromones Is that what you tell the other incels?
What's wrong with cats anyways?
Cats are a lot nicer than a lot males.
As a man who's got 'feminine hips' it's bizarre to think that this era of men would've thought I was yolked
Oh snap. The floofy wool blanket is back. I swear she looks exactly like the kind you buy at ikea
Love these insights into the myths of women's fashions! I love that beautiful blouse you are wearing!
I’m getting a “male opinions no one asked for” headache XD
It's worth remembering that the width of the skirts in 1890 is not the diameter, but the circumference of the skirt. A flat disk that fell to the ground would be no more than 2 yards across. Even allowing for the width needed to cover a wide hoop skirt would be no more than 9 feet across.
I've seen late Victorian instructions for making a perfect dress that required 7 to 9 yards of fabric for the skirt. The weight must have been impressive.
Ladies, we're damned if we do and damned if we don't, so now that we don't need men in order to have a house and income, you wear whatever you damn well please.
Ye olde take her swimming on the first date
I could just hear my husband "Kat, we have to move. I'll be damned if they think I'm going to wear pads!
So were do we go, dearest love of my life!
"West, up in the mountains. You can write your novel and I'll work repairing anything mechanical and do some lumber-jacking!
I'm already packing! Lets go!'
I was married 44 yrs to my sweetie. I can't imagine him ever playing catch up with fashion. He just didn't give a darn.
I need to read those articles! Please link them :3
love the color you are wearing today! ❤
Me, the split second the video starts: DOGGY!!🥰❤️
Just down a Nicole rabbit hole (no better way to get through a duvet day!) and I just want to compliment you fabulous earrings matching your gorgeous blouse x
I love your videos thank you
Love all the weird controversy and discussion of masculinity and femininity! Great research!
Men have always poked fun at the latests women's fashions, partly as a means to keep us in line.
Here's a quote from the play "Hobson's Choice", set in Manchester, UK in 1880 and written in America c.1915.
HOBSON. (to his daughters): You were going down Chapel Street with a hump added to nature behind you.
VICKEY (scandalized). Father!
HOBSON. The hump was wagging, and you put your feet on pavement as if you'd got chilblains-aye, stiff neck above and weak knees below. It's immodest!
ALICE. It is not immodest, father. It's the fashion to wear bustles.
This scene presumably refers to the previous hip-wave, but the play was written by someone who lived through the phase discussed in this video. Maybe he drew on his own, or his father's, view of bustles.