Starfleet Officers: 5 Horrifying Decisions That Fans Ignore | Star Trek
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ก.ค. 2024
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Trek Chapters:
00:00 Intro
00:30 The Starfleet Lie
02:33 Unaliving Innocents
03:34 Allowing Genocide
05:04 Callous Disregard
06:10 Tuvix
06:24 Conclusion
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Garak killed one criminal, one senator and four bodyguards. Poor bodyguards are always forgotten.
Started at least a dozen bodyguards killing that senator
And who is there to protect them from if not for criminals?
Think you just hate the economy and freedom (smh)
Garak killed one criminal, one senator and four Romulan Red Shirts.
@@robertf3479I’d call that a bargain.
@@robertf3479 They were already dead, they just didn't know it yet!
I like how short and to the point the Janeway segment is.
I didn't think it would be that short. Then I watched it 😅
Emotional arguments and appeals to authority (canon) are generally short and sweet. 😁
Not really a lot to say, is there?
It SHOULDN'T be this short. It should also have included the torture and attempted murder of Starfleet personnel, and relieving her XO when he put at stop to her insanity.
Much like Janeway herself
I think Quark sums it up well when he tells Nog about how humans can become as terrible as the most bloodthirsty Klingon if pushed far enough
I agree, but Quark still got others outside the Federation drinking root beer.
It's insidious!
just like the Federation
I found it depressing that the DS9 writers felt the need to pervert the Ferengi culture and society towards the end of the 7th season with unions, feminism, and all of that, after what Quark told Sisko about genocide and world wars and chattel slavery. The Ferengi didn't have the massive bloody ills of human history. In their own way, they could be seen as superior to human civilization by human standards depending on which ones you went by.
And I found it especially annoying in light of Star Trek having tried to sell us so hard on the non-interference policy, on the prime directive. Even if you don't understand another culture, that doesn't give you the right to interfere with it much less destroy it, regardless of what your personal opinions are. The humans constantly mistreated the Ferengi as did the Bajorans in that respect. Sort of the way Spock was always being teased at for not being human enough when he was half Vulcan and culturally, fully Vulcan. Humans like to talk about tolerance until they have the power to be intolerant and abusive. And yet, illustrating what you said about Quark's warning about humans, Star Trek constantly embraced the Klingons, their warrior ethic, and how great it was to be one. Which civilization had no history of bloodshed like humanity, and which one did?
A quote from Mass Effect: "Stand amongst the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honor matters."
So simply, it was war, and even Admiral Ross said it, in war, the law falls silent. They had to do what had to be done to survive. If you keep your morals in tact, while being a slave to the Dominion, yeah, good job. And I agree for once with the Federation Council, the Founders started this war, if they surrender, they can have the cure. And the Founders did far worse to countless species in the Gamma Quadrant.
One lesson to take: It's easy to spout your own virtue when NOT facing true adversity. Combat is a horrifying truth. Thanks for the thoughtful video, as always, dude
I was onboard until the "Callous Disregard" section of the video. LoreReloaded downplays the fact that that during the Iconian incident the Enterprise had actually saved the Roman ship twice. Once when it told them to destroy the probe and once more when it transmitted a way to remove the computer virus from their system. These are two decisions that the Romans never would have made. I agree that the humor on the transporter pad was a bit misplaced BUT if you've ever been in an intense, near death situation, humor can sometimes be the reaction when you're out of danger.
Perfect point!
"To be fair though: ideals aren't worth anything if everyone is dead."
I immediately Googled this to see where you got it from. And it doesn't exist. You said this. This is an original and rather devastating bit of philosophy that I would have expected to come from somebody's favorite character in a show or game.
You made me ponder some big questions here especially considering that I grew up on Star Trek and tried to mold my morality to match it wherever it might fit. Thank you
I think these episodes are the exploration of survival and morality. And when it comes down to it surviving seems to be most important. This quote expressed the fact in such a simple way.
But yeah, Janeway just straight up murdered someone.
KOTOR 2 has Kreia express something that can be read as having the same meaning, "To believe in an ideal is to be willing to betray it."
This phrase has been around in different forms before. Just because you did not find it does not mean it was not there. Ponder that.
If you are dead people will born after you who will treasure those ideals you died for.
For the Cause just might be the most important episode of DS9 because Eddington's skillful manipulation of Sisko ultimately corrupted the latter in a way that created a scar on Sisko's soul deeper than that caused by the murder of his wife, friends and colleagues by the Borg. Without For the Cause, there would be no genocide of Maquis colonies in the Demilitarised Zone and maybe even a fatally delayed entry into the Dominion War by the Romulans.
Sisko, like many Starfleet officers, started out as an idealist.
Trauma caused him to realize that sometimes idealism doesn't work.
He can live with it,...he ...can live with it ....
It's outrageous you called plain, simple Garak a former Cardassian operative! Preposterous! He was just a humble tailor.
Edit: typo
And what’s worse, he was GOOD at it.
His last name was Taylor? No wonder he was not taken seriously as a merchant...a tailor with the last name of Taylor. Of course, this does explain alot!
"Khajit is but a humble tailor with wears for sale"
@@TeamDoc312 😅
To be fair, Romulans belonged in this war. First they have launched that ill-fated attack on Dominion together with Cardassians and then, by the time the war with the Dominion they helped to spark broke out, they have decleared their neutrality and claimed that joining the war doesn't serve their interests. Plus, the Dominion totally intended to enslave everybody in the Alpha Quadrant, including the Romulans. So, was it immoral? Yes. And yet, probably justified. In my opinion destruction of Iconian portals deserves a quote. Ruining the opportunity to gain centuries worth of space exploration as some kind of improvised safety precaution was an act of sensless barbarism unharacteristic for the Federation in general and for Picard in particular. Yet, by the time of DS9 the destruction of the Iconian bases has become some kind of running joke. Also IMHO the Omega Directive is controversial to say the least!
The Romulans also knew the Dominion would attack them sooner or later. They bided their time letting the Klingons and Federation do most of the fighting early war and look like the heroes for joining the alliance towards the end. Very in character for them.
i will say though that picard beaming up as soon as the commander says that at least he dies with her was pretty funny
Sisko poisoning planets, Riker killing clones... There are a lot of examples of horrible decisions. I agree with the ones you picked, as DS9 really showcased some of the biggest/largest impacting ones.
I admit Sisko poison planets seems way out of line for him and the brass would punish him but they did not. proving that he could....live with it.
Don't forget Picard invoking the Prime Directive to allow a whole planet to asphyxiate, seen in "Homeward".
Good god, Up The Long Ladder has got to be the single worst abortion metaphor in the entirety of fiction. Can you imagine if Riker’s clone hatred manifested when Thomas Riker was recovered? That would’ve made for a very different episode.
@@toyotatacoma1616 Can you imagine if those clones had started life the way actual clones do, i.e. as infants? I don't think the audience would have been quite as copacetic with Riker vaporizing two babies.
To be fair, we all know that at first chance the Dominion would of attacked the Romulans at the first chance. Also with everything the Romulans have done over the years, it's about time they actually did something beneficial for the Alpha Quadrant.
I think they were going to join the war anyway. They knew they were on the Dominions hit list for their attack on the Founders homeworld.
That last one was hilarious. "Janeway straight up murdered Tuvix. Yeah, even canon agrees with me on this. Deal." 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 Short and to the point.
Well, I'm no Janeway fan, but didn't she save the lives of both Tuvok and Neelix in the process? And can't it also be argued that Tuvix wasn't really killed, his essence remains within Tuvok and Neelix? Yes, Tuvix's appeal for life was heart rending, but what would any ethical person have done instead?
He was killed.. yea.. its psychopathic to make any other argument and she chose two lives over 130+
lower decks solved this argument with the simple fact, 2 lives are more important than one.
@@Crazy-Chicken-Media Fancy version of the trolley problem.
@Crazy-Chicken-Media lower decks pointed out that she murdered tuvix and when faced with the same problem they wanted to find another solution. Janeway didn't do it to save Neelix, she did it because she couldn't go on without tuvok. We see a future version of her erase an entire timeline to save him from a disease
Building an ivory tower from high minded ideals guarantees you a spectacular view of all the bodies generated by pernicious adherence to rules...
“Ideals are peaceful. History is violent.” - War Daddy
“Needs must when the devil drives.” - Unknown
I love how they created something even worse than nelix and expected us to want to keep him.
Regarding the Romulan incident, Picard didn't know the problem was solved until he heard Riker order the info be given to the Romulans, and it was like 30 seconds before the end of the episode. This rushed conclusion style occasionally occurred like when injured members were beamed aboard and we hear that there's no injuries right before the Enterprise blasts off. Surely they didn't get an exam that quickly, it's just time limitations. It's possible they aimed to flesh out these moments, but ran into time constraints.
I'm pretty sure in the Iconian episode they informed the Romulan crew how to fix the problem. They just didn't stick around to see if they were able to.
He showed that part. He is whining because Riker and Picard weren’t beside themselves with worry about the poor Romulans. Giving them information to save their lives apparently isn’t enough to satisfy “fEdErAtIoN iDeAlS”😁
The Tuvix's situation has always bothered me. There has been multiple times in almost every Star Trek series where a transporter accident cloned another person. All of these incidents are most likely logged somewhere so people know what to do to avoid a situation like that. So, why couldn't they have arranged a cloning of Tuvix and then separated the original back into Tuvok and Nellix? I mean seriously. How hard would that have been?
That still leaves you with the problem of killing Tuvix. Except now you also have to live with purposefully creating a Tuvix to kill just so you have one that lives.
5 of the best storytelling decisions in Trek history.
In Pale Moon Light; the deception was never the plan, the assassination was.
The most unbelievable thing about the whole plan was that the Romulans never discovered it (unless they have in Picard, which I haven't seen). Given the plot was approved by Starfleet command and presumably the large number of people "in the know", you'd think the Tal Shiar would have found out.
@@johnpotts8308 Starfleet approved Sisko's plan (find the evidence even if we have to manufacture it ourselves), not Garak's plan (the assassination) ... hopefully
@@johnpotts8308 Yeah, I think the Tal Shiar would've been ok with it, knowing that it was a bad deal siding with the Dominion in the long run. Considering they were willing to give Starfleet a cloaking device to surveil them and getting embarrassed by a deep cover operative orchestrating the attempted genocide of the founders w/ the Obsidian Order.
@@johnpotts8308 Only Season Three of Picard is worth watching IMO. I only ever got to episode three or four of Season one before I vomited.
@liquidflorian I could totally see how the Romulans were OK with it because it gave them a justification to enter the war on the Federation side. They knew that living under the Dominion would not have been ideal
The dream is that we will try to be our very best, and work to become better. At its best, Star Trek remembers that.
But people who never make mistakes or fall short are not fully human, and are difficult to tell stories about.
Yes Tuvix was murdered but as Spock and Tuvok would say "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."
Then they should have kept tuvix
Well said pknutter
@@LoreReloaded What? No, it wasn't murder it was saving Tuvok and Neelix. One life to save two. Simple math. Besides Tuvix was an abomination and not really a person at all. Janeway did nothing wrong.
or the one
"Yes, I know we use people as slave labor in our camps, but the needs of Germany outweighs their needs"
Fans actually talk about these. What they don't talk about is the time Picard stood by and let an entire species die because to save them (which he could have done) would have technically violated the prime directive.
That one never makes these lists for some reason. This is worse than anything Janeway or Sisko ever did.
Being a veteran. I finally understood the complexities of certain people dirty their hands, so the next generation can have their hands clean turn. Another thing about war, it's Hell It's easy to talk when you live in paradise. During the battlegrounds of the battlefield rules, are different except for the rules of engagement
Yeah, it was funny on Lower Decks in a dark sort of way when Freeman said Janeway murdered Tuvix. Ransom even said Janeway doesn't mess around.
Tubix was not killed, he just returned to being two people.
Disagree. He was a distinct individual with distinct feelings. Yes, his existence was an accident and unfortunate for Tuvok and Neelix. But ending his existence was intentional and tantamount to murder.
Two wrongs do not make a right. Basic ethics.
The morally ambiguous decisions of DS 9 are the most realistic. War usually leads to a loss of innocence on both sides. The stakes are too high to stay on the side of the angels.
Some of these things, as hard it is, is like, "Do what you have to do "
I've never understood the "murder" take on the whole Tuviix thing- allowing Tuviix to exist effectively kills both Tuvok and Neliix, whereas Tuviix would not even exist if not for the Transporter accident. Tuvok and Neliix never gave their consent to be joined that way; and never would have. To have your whole body and *being* joined with another like that- with no choice at all... I don't know if that's closer to Slavery or Rape. Janeway didn't "murder" Tuviix, she corrected a mistake that never should have happened in the first place and in so doing; saved the lives of two of her crew. Job well done IMHO.
But Tuvl an nelix alredy ceased to exist so they were effctively dead. And, many species on earth live only onlt to procreate meaning they die to create a creature tht doesn't exist. the Black widow male dies to procreate. Some woen are willing to die to make sure ther child dlive and some men do too.
Exactly. If they'd have been able to fix it in 5 minutes, no one would have called it unethical. But because it took a long time, during which Tuvix began building a life, they call it unethical.
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. Voyager needed separate Tuvox and Neelix. If making command decisions were easy with obvious solutions to problems, then everyone would be captain. Janeway was correct all the way.
Picard's decision to save Wesley in Justice. Unforgivable.
Instead of Janeway murdered Tuvix, how about Tuvix murdered Tuvok AND Neelix. They lost TWO crew members when Tuvix appeared. But they gained two when they "killed" Tuvix.
THIS!! I've been saying this for years! Why is everybody OK with sacrificing Tuvok's and Neelix's lives to a transporter accident just because the accident is friendly and likeable. If I were either of those two, and after being saved from a transporter accident that for all intents and purposes 'killed' me, then I ever heard anybody, I mean ANYBODY, whisper a word of sympathy for "Tuvix", the genetic prison my body and mind were trapped in, I would give that person the side eye of death forever.
@@jasonbungard7484 YAY. You're the first one to agree with me. lol. Thanks.
The interesting thing about this is the actions of Star Fleet in the Dominion can really be traced back to the Battle of Wolf359 and its effects. Up until this point whether it's the issues with the Klingons, Romulans, or take you pick of anyone else Star Fleet was like any other government they had their ships, military, agents, and a weapon that was always strong enough to take out the other side if need be. Even in the war with Klingons from the TOS era Star Fleet hoped the Constitution class was good enough hell even in the Earth Romulan war humanity finally got some use out of all those atomic weapons from long ago. But the Borg was the first time Star Fleet and the Federation had no answer you couldn't talk your way out of it or fight your way out of it, you had to hope your best was good enough and against the Borg they barely escaped. But the Dominion was just as deadly there was no compromise, half measures, talking nothing was working even ships designed to beat the Borg were failing. So Star Fleet had to look to the one group chances are they didn't want to and they got their Doomsday Machine to stop the Dominion and it worked ironically the same type of weapon would ultimately put the Borg down for a very long time and it's the smallest weapon possible but has effects almost on scale with a thermonuclear blast...a deadly virus. Whether you like it or not the heros win and the conquering empire is defeated.
And does it matter if you become 'Just as bad as they are', if you don't survive to regret the decision?
Like if your actions are morally superior but nobody is around to acknowledge it, does that make them sound?
@@StreetPreacherr To the second, yes.
About Tuvix, neither Tuvok or Neelix asked to be merged. In the end it was a transporter mishap
I forgot if other people don't ask you vs. Simply execute whom you don't like... truly trek shows us an enlightened society
The only issue I have with this video is that Tuvix and ITPML are two of the most discussed episodes in Trek history, so saying we ignore it is wrong.
Oooh, I liked the question.
I don't even need to watch the video to know that #1 will be Sisko destroying the Maquis colony with the trilithium resin.
Didn't bring that up ironically.. but that is a big one
@@LoreReloaded And wasn't the Founders genocide actually Starfleet's SECOND consideration of the action? Didn't the Enterprise contemplate wiping out the entire Borg Collective with a computer virus a few years earlier?
Janeway murdered Tuvix, however I do appreciate that when Lower Decks pointed this out, the same episode also demonstrated why Tuvix had to be murdered by creating several more Tuvix's and callously murdering all of them at the end of the episode. Honestly, one of the best Lower Decks episodes.
What about Ezri Tigan being forced to become Ezri Dax? Ezri had decided against joining with a symbiont but that didn't seem to count for anything when the Dax symbiont was in danger. Starfleet just decided that the symbiont was more important than she was and Ezri Tigan ceased to exist.
She deciding against joining purposefully, but when confronted with a dying symbiote she chose to blend to save its life. Rewatch her intro, she doesn't blame anyone for the unfortunate series of events that created Ezri Dax.
Maquis would probably fall under Callous Disregard, and Allowing Genocide. One can claim up and down that Starfleet gave them a chance, and that they chose to remain under what was now "officially" Cardissan territory...but it ignores the fact the federation started getting HEAVILY involved in helping hunt down the rebel Maquis. We saw early on Cardissa trying to run a psy op to get a Starfleet Admiral to go after rebel elements for Cardassia, and while that op was outed and stopped, I don't believe Cardiassa didn't stop trying and eventually succeeded. Worse they succeeded in getting Starfleet to aid and abet their man hunts cause Starfleet's ego couldn't stand the idea of their officers going rogue, despite all of them giving clear moral reasons for doing so. That isn't even getting into the appeasement that got the Federation into the situation in the first place. Just remains a sore spot and blemish on Starfleet's record for me.
Also don't forget the Federation actions that led them to leave the Federation in the first place... years of labor spent on outer colony worlds, and then being told to just... leave. And go to where, exactly? Plus, with a Federation that has no money... that would mean the work value of their time on those planets would be valued at... $0.
That's a mighty incentive to consider starting your own government. The Maquis bear a mighty resemblance to the Americas in 1776, frankly, and the Federation looks like a King George. The difference in this scenario is that Napoleon (Cardassia) left the mainland alone, went after the colonies instead, and persuaded Britain to help.
Season 5 Episode 9 TNG "A Matter of Time"
There's a time traveler named Berlinghoff Rasmussen (Matt Frewer) who claims to be from the 26th century. But he's actually a 22nd century failed inventor who happened to come across a 26th century time traveler and at best stole his ship (Not known what else he might have done to the other time traveler) He steals some equipment from the Enterprise like a phaser, tricorder etc and tried to kidnap Data in the end. A crime of opportunity since Picard told Data to enter the time ship to check for the stolen merch.
Which is all very shitty behavior on the face of it. But then the crew deliberately strands Rasmussen in the 24th century.
So here's the thing, every time a crew in ST gets sent to another time. Returning to their time is always paramount (pun intended) in their objectives. Make sure everything is the way it was and get back. Nobody wants to die centuries away from their family and friends they know etc.
I realize Rasmussen took the risk to time travel. But it just seemed really petty, while they're all just standing there in the shuttle bay and they wouldn't let him board again and the ship disappears. You're supposed to think "Yeah the guy is getting his comeuppance" cause he was sort of a lying condescending shit the whole time. Though it's not like he's a violent psychopath either. Picard's decision to not let him board again seem disproportionate.
Then again if Rasmussen is back onboard the time ship he can just do the same thing somewhere else. So what it comes down to is an on the spot decision to strand a guy centuries from his own time because his ethics, on the surface, might be of a looser weave than the crew of the Enterprise. But given that we don't have much back story about the circumstances of who he is and where he's coming from it all seems like Picard's decision was a bit harsh.
Of course Rasmussen is lying, stealing and wanted to benefit from inventions that are not his own. But it didn't seem like he was trying to use the technology to take over the world like a tyrant, just bringing advancement and improving people's lives. That's they way the character was played anyway.
Probably one of the BEST TV episodes an one of if not THE BEST monologue EVER
I was kinda hoping that the "In the Pale Moonlight" thing would come up in Picard. All those Romulans hated Starfleet for failing to save their star or whatever stupid manufactured garbage, but if the conspiracy to bring them into the Dominion War had somehow come out, that would have been an actual reason for tension. Plus, a reason to see Garak again++
I disagree about Contagion. Riker told the Romulans to destroy the probe in an effort to prevent what he didn't realize had already started. Then, in that scene that you edited, Picard didn't know that the problem had been solved when he was beamed back & you cut out Riker having Enterprise transmit instructions to the Romulans to save themselves.
The Imperium of Man (with the Emperor and his primarch sons) would roll the Star Trek galaxy up in a ball.
Astartes would *laugh* at “warrior races” like the Klingons and Jemhadar
No wonder Janeway made a badass admiral.
Yeah, Sisko's decision (with the 'aid' of Garak) was sketchy and the UFP were fully aware of the implications of bringing the Romulans into the war. This speaks to a complatent Star Fleet, especially when it comes to the clandestine actions of Section 31.
Morality is easy when you’re winning
Given what happened to T'Illups on Lower Decks, I wonder if Tuvix would have ended up turning evil and fusing other members of the crew.
T'illups was his own man, who made his own decisions. There's nothing inherent in Tuvixing that makes Tuvixes evil. Though I do have to admit, Captain Dr. Frigleeman did lunge pretty straight into the plan the moment she existed.
@@facedeerI was thrown for a loop by that as well, why would Frigleeman’s Captain Freeman side forget about the plan to save all three individuals later at Starfleet Headquarters after their particular Transporter Fusion Dance? Was killing all those unique new individuals _worth_ giving Devona Tendi and the new girl a good bonding moment?
T'illups only did *that* 'cause they thought that Captain Freeman was gonna pull a Janeway and straight-up kill them.
"Unaliving"?
Guess the Federation went squishy after all.
Lower Decks did a good call back to the Tuvix incident as the plot to a recent episode.
I know Ross and Lower Decks already covered it, but I think one of the biggest dark moments in Trek was that whole drug planet thing. It wasn't an act taken in the desperation of war time or to get crew back or to protect subspace or maintain the Federation, Picard JUST LEFT THEM. Lower Decks established that they never even checked back in, a whole culture of people who thought they were going to die, had to go through basically heroin withdrawal with no help from anyone. They weren't even told it was drugs!
I'd be curious about an episode on the Equinox. Specifically wouldn't it have been much wider of them to find some place to settle down? It would be a difficult decision which would undoubtedly cause infighting for a short time. But when it comes down to it they simply didn't have the resources or a large enough gas tank to come anywhere near making the trip. We saw a number of locations that would have realistically been good places for them to start new lives and, you know, be happy.
Voyager at least had a technologically advanced all around starship and a capable crew. With the life expectancies of the time some of them might live long enough through the 70 years to see home again. Meanwhile they would've had time to produce one or two new generations of descendants. They would still get back before a decreasing genetic pool became an issue.
In fact, I think that we didn't see more crew members hooking up and starting that process was one of the most unrealistic aspects of the show. The Equinox on the other hand didn't have even this option. To put it bluntly, if it was always going to be a long shot for Voyager, the Equinox was never going to make it back.
There's also always the possibility that the grandchildren may decide that they have no real reasons to get to Earth, but that's a whole other story.
When Tuvix was created, Tuvok and Neelix's clothes were merged together as well.
When Tuvix was separated, he was wearing a standard uniform.
Therefore, Neelix and Tuvok should've come back half naked.
You forgot the Star Trek TOS episode A Private Little War. Kirk arms the Hill People against The Village People thereby dooming the planet to an endless cycle of slaughter and retribution.
Arming the victims/good guys is not a horrifying decision, it is a just and frankly limited step in opposing evil. Lend Lease ATACMS and F-16s for everyone who will use them to kick the bad guys where it hurts. The problem is when you make promises and then hand your friends out to dry.
@@stuartwald2395 So it’s the end justify the means? Is it right to condemn the Hill People and the Village People to an endless cycle of of revenge, bloodshed and death? Even Kirk seems to have creeping doubts about it when he says his last line in the episode. I agree sometimes you have to make the best decision possible in a muddled situation to take on even worse bad guys. Captain Kirk made a decision. Now he has to live with it.
@@DWNicolo To quote the Iron Duke, the only thing worse than a battle won is a battle lost. Nothing is eternal. The alternative was to allow the hill people to be destroyed piecemeal (at an accelerating rate), and of course also to allow the Klingons to control the planet while they fly below the Organian radar coverage. By arming the hill people (now at their own request/demand), the villagers and the Klingons will be encouraged, after a bloody nose or two, to knock it off, as the cost of continuing the conflict will be too high in proportion to the rewards. They will likely get some form of DMZ/border area to keep them separate, and maybe then allow for the trading that normally exists between village (agricultural) and nomadic (hunter/pastoralist) groups.
@@stuartwald2395 all I’m saying is Kirk is damned if he do, damned if he don’t. Or as Cisco says, I can live with that. This isn’t WWII it’s Vietnam redux.
The cycle is only as endless as the two parties make it. And in this particular case the alternative would have been to stand and watch the hill people get wiped out. If I remember correctly, it was the Klingons who started the slaughter by arming the village people. In an ideal world the Federation-Klingon conflict should never have been brought ont that world. But the Klingons did and Kirk had to find some way to deal with it.
Even in a golden era of utopia, the universe is designed to kill everything. Star Fleet had/has to learn this the hard way.
What if Garak went to Starflet behead Siskos back and got the whole thing approved or rather what If after hearing the "first" plan someone came to Garak and said no matter what get them into the war?
Unfortunately as Spider-Man would say “with great power comes with great responsibility!” These decisions were not easy and had reasons despite the moral implications!
Honour and morals are great things. Everyone need to have them. However when its true live or die time. You do what you have to and live with it.
Janeway definitely killed tuvix, but who wouldn’t? Let’s not forget that disassembling Tuvix enabled Janeway to save Tuvok even at the cost of bringing Neelix back.
The first one I don’t think fans ignore. I see it discussed and brought up all the time among the fan base.
Might I suggest the point near the end of the Dominion War, when Gowron is wasting the Klingon fleet attempting to dishonor Martok for political reasons.
An angry Sisko tells Worf to do whatever he has to do to stop Gowron, after which, Worf challenges Gowron and kills him, installing Martok as the new Chancellor of the Klingon Empire.
Interfering with the lawful government of an ally sure looks like a pretty serious breach of the Prime Directive to me.
The only thing you mentioned would be the reactions of Picard and Riker that weren't a "yeah I pretty much expected that" reaction from me. Damn there was a LOT of DS9 in that list.
This is the analysis of someone who is safely ensconced behind a desk, enjoying the prosperity that others have provided and who has never had to make a harder decision than what to have for dinner. 😁
Your lack of understanding of my background is hilarious
It is somewhat ironic, that three of the instances you mention are often cited by certain fans as why they believe Deep Space Nine is the best or at least their favorite Star Trek. I think it is however disingenuous to include Tuvix on this list as it is widely regarded as a travesty in the fandom, it is not something people ignore.
I hope that you show Sisko's actions to get Eddington
I liked Eddington, right until his end. IMO he was a hero. A Star Trek Robin Hood. That was some superb storytelling from DS9. Never really telling us who was in the wrong and trusting the fans to decide on their own. We don’t get that kind of respect from the writers anymore.
I don't think anyone agrees with the federation's actions during the Dominion War. However, wasn't that the overarching point of DS9? Angels on exist in paradise. War is hell, and individuals have to be, by some measure, a demon to be victorious. TNG touches on this a bit in some episodes but makes an effort to be better than that. DS9 flips the script by being angels when appropriate, but being absolute demons when necessary. In the process exposing the hypocrisy of the federation.
Unfortunately Ethics only works when both sides follows the save general value of ethics. In the real world dealing with a Narcissist is extremely frustrating and dangerous, they are mentally ill, but often function in society at a determent and are difficult to get treatment, and don't follow the normal view of ethics. And standard forms of punishment just don't affect them the same way, which can often cause a mentally healthy person to actually break their morals out of general frustration with them.
Picard didnt actually know the virus had been cleared from the ship. Riker was always going to give them the fix.
Even the Federation itself. Some pretty good examples from TOS that could have been used.
You forgot the Federation's arrangements with the Son'a, which Picard criticised in Star Trek: Insurrection.
I enjoy seeing paragons of virtue, as the high ranking officers of starfleet are presented, falter when facing insanely high pressure scenarios. It makes the characters and their stories more interesting to watch and think about than if they were simply perfect people, the only perfect person was Tuvix
i always though that it would be cool if the Romulans knew the data stick was a fake, but needed a casus belli thus with the death of two they could join and save face
I'll never forget that Romulan's "It's a FAAAAAAAAKE!"
"Holy s#@&! Janeway didn't mess around."
-Lt. Shaxs
The moral quandaries are a significant factor that made the TNG / DS9 / Voyager era writing so vastly superior to the drivel that has succeeded it.
War criminal space Jesus Sisko. Still my fav captain
How many species how many civilisations did the Founders destroy before coming into contact with the Federation? Bashir visited a planet where the Founders infected the entire population with a horrible disease that killed them all slowly and made them unable to use electricity.
When the war started the Dominion were planning to destroy the Federation utterly.
The first one sounds like Britain during WWI.
To be fair, Tuvix was horribly annoying. Far more than Neelix. Everyone wanted to murder him.
Thank you!
The British, more or less, knew Japan was going to attack Pearl Harbor. How high up the chain that went will never be know, but someone at the rank of captain or equivalent knew. They also knew the US needed to enter the war.
War isn't pretty. Sometimes you have to be a monster to defeat the monster.
Janeway did the right thing with Tuvix. While there is a huge plot hole, copy paste anyone? She needed the two officers.
Hard times make hard decisions, wouldn't you say Harry Truman?
It's possible that the Romulans just wanted an excuse to intervene in the Dominion War.
Given a thousand chances to handle the Tuvix situation differently, I would kill him every single time. He was killing Tuvok and Neelix by refusing to stop existing! Screw him.
Picard had Ensign Sito killed with intent. Let’s discuss.
Picard was downright angry at the flight accident coverup Wesley was involved in. We know this for a fact. But he can’t stay mad at Wesley, but Picard knows Wesley is now a pariah, a person non grata and starfleet will forever shun someone who would’ve done great things, whether Wesley quit the Academy or not.
This stays with Picard
Flash forward to season 7. We the audience know that tensions with the Cardassians have been on edge. We know the history between the Bajorans and Cardassians. DS9 is already airing at this point. Picard remembers one of the accomplices is Bajoran. He pulls strings to have her assigned to the Enterprise. She is there for months, having never interacted with Picard. Finally, a dangerous black ops mission involving Cardassia is given. Picard has his opportunity. He orders this ensign, fresh out of the academy, to pretend to be a hostage. Knowing full well, Cardassians are out killing any potential bajoran terrorists they can find. We see this in DS9’s second episode when their firing on a Bajoran ship outside their space. Sito is killed, Picard gives a very small announcement about her death and honestly if you go back to it, that little speech lacks any heart and we know Picard is known for rousing speeches.
End of story.
If you have to betray your principles to survive, then your principles are the problem.
Was that Romulan Senator's last name Prigozhin?
The Terran Federation from Starship troopers is more realistic: A Roman style Libertarian state that arises in response to the failures of Neo-Liberalism and Neo-Conservatism
Hey to be fair Janeway also murderd the fear clown from the thaw lol.
that how it goes
Odo certainly had a point.
I feel perfectly ok to ignore decisions that never occured. There is no Starfleet. There never was. These are entertaining videos that we need make moral judgements about any of this.
Alas your lack of understanding about media and art on culture since long before you were born is saddening.
@@LoreReloaded the idea that people could be morally wrong about a fictional place is error. Fans can't be morally faulted for ignoring atrocities that never actually occurred.
@@LoreReloaded I was born while TOS was still on TV.
@@evelk5233 you'll be surprised to know that art and media have been influencing humanity long before that
Not offering the citizens impacted by the Cardassian treaty the option to rescind their citizenship, instead trying to force the issue.
According to offical lore the 2 worst species in the galaxy are the vulcans and the humans running a close 2nd. That says something
and tuvix again, that is a very dead horse you be beating
Try the Romulans or Klingons, and you'll start worshipping the UFP...
Beaten it until it is nothing more than dust…. 🤦🏻♂️
"But the Founders started this war..."
...from a certain point of view.
Tuvix is 2 people she just put them back
You do realize that Picard transmitted the means for the Romulans to purge their systems of the Iconian virus? It's not like they could just board the ship and do it themselves. The Romulans would have fought tooth and nail.
That was Riker actually... Picard couldn't be bothered
Okay, the Tuvix thing bugs me. Yeah she killed him, but it was to save 2 members of her crew. Justifiable homicide.
That's a very chilling precedent, though. If 2 people die as a result of a malfunction or an accident or otherwise natural but preventable cause, but murdering someone who is completely innocent to reverse those deaths is justified, what other murders to avert unintentional but arguably natural deaths are permissible? Should we dissect the living for the sake of the dying?
If Tuvix was not as good at his job as a tactical officer, I might have some pragmatic or utilitarian reason to agree with Janeway, but the more that I think about it, there was no good reason to get rid of Tuvix.
Sadly, I want to agree, but it's just emotional reasoning of wanting things to remain unchanged.
But Tuvok and Neelix weren’t dead. They were merged into one without their consent. And Janeway rescued them.
The “emotional” argument is coming from the “Janeway Murdered Tuvix” crowd…
"IT'S A FAKE!"