One of my favourite people on here. He does not mince words when a caller is in the wrong, but he is always as supportive as he can be, with (what sounds like) solid advice. Amazing.
Yup, as a lawyer you're used to dealing with people only telling their side in a way that puts them in the best light. But he still makes it clear what their options are, even the ones they won't like.
This reminds me of something that happened to me when I worked in Sainsburys years ago. I was working as a supervisor when I applied for a trainee management scheme to become a store deputy manager. The manager received an email on store computer and deleted it (small Sainsburys Local with about 20 staff). The bastard deleted the email which invited me to an interview. I only found out when the deputy manager actually came and told me what happened. When I confronted the manager he said he couldn't have me leaving because he needed me to run the store during the evenings. I went and made a grievance complaint to the area manager and the store manager ended up resigning after he got a disciplinary. I ended up getting the job and worked as a deputy manager for another 4 years before I got fed up with retail. The slimy weasel tried to fuck me over to make his own life easier. The job wasn't even worth it, I was only making £1.50 more an hour then before.
I doubt that, they would have replaced you so it shouldn't have affected your manager unless you were doing extra work and they didn't think they could find someone to do that too
@@sie4431 Oh the manager had some other issues with regards to theft, this happened in 2011 at the Ealing Common store. Im not sure what happened to him but last I heard he ran away to Wales.
@@sie4431I don't doubt it, replacing reliable people is hard. You need to find them, train them and you don't know whether they will be trouble or leave. Most bosses would delete the email.
This is why some companies don’t give references. In my industry they normally (on request) write “We confirm that Joanna Bloggs was employed by us between XX/XX and XX/XX as a Marketing Assistant’ or whatever it was. Nothing more.
Although I'm British I lived in the US for a while and in Massachusetts that's all you could put period... thinking about it you might have been able to include salary too. Always thought of all the employment laws there that was one of the few I actually thought was an upgrade on the UK.
@@mjc8281 Interesting. So what you’re saying is that although it’s only an increasing convention here, in the US it’s actually the law that you can only give objective facts as a reference? I’m in two minds about whether it’s good or not. I’ve tended to think of them as character statements - imagine being in court for some horrible crime and your friend’s character statement is dry and factual only (“I knew Vlad from 2003 until today. I met him at work…”). On balance I probably agree with you - all the risk of bias and unfairness, and irritation for companies if people don’t like their references etc.
@@vladimirimp To be clear its state law not federal law, so it depends state to state. I must admit I liked it better, it basically takes the chance out of employment references.
I've never heard of a teacher getting a bad reference. Usually the very worst teachers get the best references so the school can get rid of them quicker!
I got refused a job because my previous employer forgot I asked him for a reference and refused to give one to my interviewer. I don't think you should be able to ask for references from a previous employer, your old employer should have 0 bearing on if you find a new job or not.
Especially with the 2 year rule limiting unfair dismissal claims. I was dismissed from a job after the most stupidly mishandled disciplinary process, I spoke to a lawyer and he said it would've been an easy case, except I didn't meet the 2 years service requirement to be able to bring it. The lawyer told me they were very unlikely to put in a reference that I was dismissed, because that would expose them to potential action, but they did. Fortunately I still got the job, otherwise they'd've been dealing with a lawsuit.
I think employers who dismiss their staff for gross misconduct such as theft, violence, use of drugs or alcohol at work will strongly disagree with you. I for example love giving a chance to people and always try to accommodate candidates with health issues and pretty much never ask if there are any mental health issues at all as we all have some. However, I once employed a person who turned out to be a very aggressive schizophrenic who turned all my staff's lives into a living hell for the brief period she was with us. Just once day she snapped and Police needed to be called on premises. Everything that person had sinister undertones. I am now a fan of going back to old rules when candidate HAD TO state all the issues they have during the interview process. Because candidates don't have to do it her family threatened me with defamation case if I try to warn other local employers. Since then I learned recently that person did the same to 4 other employers.
@@xhy20x Out of all cases where employers provide honest bad references there is maybe 0.01% of candidates that were harmed by their employers. In the UK 'no win no fee' lawyer wants a half of potential reward for representing you and drops you as soon as the reward becomes unworthy. Even professional solicitor would ran a test on you that has to prove you have bigger chances of winning than losing before taking you on and that is even if you can afford at least 120-150 an hour to go to court.
I'm amazed that anyone (a) asks for references and (b) still gives them . They are just so prone to abuse. Try to keep a good employee by giving a bad ref or trying to get rid of one by giving an overly positive one. Utterly pointless. They are really worth nothing. For these reasons, subjective references are no longer relevant. My understanding is that most places of business will only acknowledge open facts e.g. length of service, maybe job duties ,etc. That's it. They are an anachronism and should be given the boot.
Cannot see the point of giving someone a bad reference. It's just spiteful. If someone is a bad worker, that will all come out when they start and they will get fired. Giving someone a bad reference out of spite is disgusting.
When you have had a truly awful employee surely it’s the morally right thing to tell the truth and save any future employer the grief? For example if you had an employee who was stealing money is it fair to let another employer find out the hard way and be left out of pocket?
@@shez4058 I would not want to be the one giving references. Sounds like you could be sued either way. Of course, she could have given a performance review in the first place.
If dealing with someone in a personal or professional capacity has been a really bad experience why TF should I lie or withhold honest information to help them, thereby harming someone else who has done nothing bad to me (as that employer would have to learn the hard way)
This happened to me. I got the job, was called later on in the week to say they could not offer the job to me because my last manager gave me a terrible reference. I left my last job, She had begged me to stay but I took redundancy. I was happy to leave because it was a crazy place. Had been to see her a few times in the two years I was there to say that I wanted to leave nd she had always persuaded me to stay. I asked her why she had given me a bad reference the conversation went off a tangent and I never got much from her. I didn’t pursue it, just got another role.
The weird thing is the NHS doesn't allow staff to give formal references, at least in the organisations I am familiar with. The reference has to be provided by HR and only includes the number of sick days for the previous 2 years and whethere there are any outstanding discplinaries.
And that's all it should be. Way too tempting when asking for a character reference from someone who is about to lose one of their members of staff for them to write it just negatively enough to retain their employee by costing them the job. Complete conflict of interest
You're allowed to say anything you like in a reference as long as it's true. Yes, some places play safe and provide the minimal details but that's not because they have to.
@@1violalassyes this is a big a myth in the UK, that it’s “illegal” to give a bad reference. You normally hear it from people with shocking timekeeping skills. In a reference they’ll say they had poor timekeeping skills and the person will say, “you can’t say that.” Umm yes I can, in the year you were employed here you received a verbal and written warning for lateness.
This happened to me too. I suspect my old employer gave me a bad reference on top of telling me to withdraw from the job so i cant get another new job. Now i feel like they ruined everything and i hate them for that.
Had a similar issue, went for a global SME job when I was working as a local SME. All interviews went very well as I had done similar global SME jobs at other companies, was even told by the interviewers that they would be putting me forward for the position as the perfect candidate, then my manager was asked if I would be a good fit and she crapped all over me, when I asked WTF she was saying that for it was down to them not being able to afford to lose me at the local site as nobody else knew what I knew... bastards. Fast forward 4 months and I put my notice in as I was leaving to go work at a consultancy on double the salary with as much training as I wanted, so they lost me completely rather than still having me but in a global position.
This is why most organisations only provide professional references such as date employed and location. Too many bad managers are willing to drag their organisation into legal problems.
This shows just how stupid the reference system is. There's an incentive to write a bad reference to encourage a good employee to stay. And on the other hand, there's the incentive to write a good reference to encourage a bad employee to leave. Note that I always had glowing references from all my employers....
Teachers are governed by separate rules and regs in comparison to a worker who does not work in a school. Thee must be a reason why the teacher has put that down.
Lots of employers are terrible at admin or performance management. Just because this lady's employer was incompetent in that regard, it doesn't mean she wasn't incompetent in the areas they raised in her reference. A reference wouldn't be worth the paper it was written on if employers just did their employees a favour every time one was requested and lied. The fact they readily shared the reference with her suggests they didn't believe they'd done anything they shouldn't have. Every time someone gets offered a job, a dozen or more others get refused - there's always someone better than you. Failing upwards isn't a right!
Sounds to me like she might not be ready to be a headteacher and the headmistress was outlining that fact. It doesn't mean the headmistress thinks she's bad at her _current_ job she probably just thinks she should be nowhere near an assisstant headteacher role. That's why the headmistress hasn't brought up any if these issues before. Because they don't currently apply.
Teachers do NOT have to tell their employers that they are looking for another job. Secondly, references are always taken up BEFORE an interview in my considerable experience as a school governor.
References are worthless other than to confirm how long you worked there. Teaching is one where it is particularly difficult as no teacher I have ever know will ever agree they are simply not good enough. Headteachers are worse because they have no backbone for conflict as they fear a teacher going off with stress at the first sign of dissatisfaction with performance. As a person who has conducted thousands of interviews over the years I have never relied on a references because some employers are so keen to pass on trouble makers they give glowing references whilst others feel determined to ruin others. A good interviewer will construct a fair way to test individuals on skill sets needed for the role especially if they are looking for a step up role. If any manger worth their salt does not do regular reviews of staff and document they are fools as it works both ways in improving people and finding out concerns which may be affecting an individual and others. In this case we have a one sided story which the expert was alluding to so it is hard to decide if she was actually hard done by and without seeing the questions asked in the reference we do not know the relevance.
Employers have been sued over bad references. Most will only give basic details like when you started and finished, any time off sick etc. Just the indisputable facts. Things like disciplinaries are subjective (and often arguable, managers not following guidelines when issuing them, etc) so can land them in legal trouble. Also GDPR is a minefield as a lot of information is now protected. The fines are huge if companies are found to be in breach.
TSB Bank Plc vs Harris (2000) is an example of an employer providing (confidential) information in a job reference of which the employee was not aware, and who was then able to successfully sue their employer. I don't believe that references are worth anything more than a confirmation that the employee has worked there for a period of time... If you have a good employee leaving, then saying anything other than good things would be cause for grievances and constructive dismissal etc. If you have a bad employee leaving, then why wouldn't you want them to leave, rather than spend time/effort managing them out. I suspect that providing a bad reference would be more likely if you have a good employee that you don't want to lose, or a really bad employee that you just want to stuff over.
“I don’t know if you know much about teaching but assistant headship applications are horrendous, it took me about 12 hours to complete” *Barnett has Vietnam flashbacks*
@@PedroGonzalez11111 I did a subject access request and was denied a copy of the reference by HR. I could only see the email chain it was sent in and who sent it, not the attachment
That's why you write your own references under a made up name like Napoleon Big Bum or Adolf Smith. Remember, don't write I'm brilliant, write they are brilliant.
Unions will not support constructive dismissal cases. They rarely go to court for members, I have scores of employees coming to me with this issue. I have represented at court three times now for members of trade unions who were refused support and won both at settlement level and at judgement level. The solicitors unions use are unfair, unsupportive and downright wrong. I have no recognised legal qualifications, but see cases regularly that are straightforward and supported with substantial evidence told ‘no’ by the unions. Citizens Advice Bureau’s do their best but can only refer to solicitors for representation that many cannot afford. So few solicitors put aside a tiny amount of their time for pro bono work it’s sad and it’s left to people like me to do our best for free to help people in awful situations. Most of the work I now do is for union members who are badly represented. I have to advise them that if they tell the Unions they are seeking outside advice they will cease to represent them but they are desperate for help. Unions are becoming less and less effective and reps are getting no training on employment law outside of the company handbook.
Training on employment law is given to union reps. But most cases are sorted out through negotiated settlements, including agreed references, usually. It's tricky if people claim to be unsupported by their union - because it can mean that they don't like the advice they're being given. Headteachers have an enormous amount of power, though. Lesson observations, and performance targets / areas of weakness are not appealable since there is no one a teacher can call in to independently verify their performance. A poor lesson observation, followed by another, can quickly lead to capability procedures and the possibility of job loss within a term, even. Depends how the systems are used - for instance a teacher may only be as 'good' as their last observation, - which can pressurise the more experienced, better paid, if the school is looking to save money - the highest cost in any school being salaries. It can be a nasty world, education.
SENCO - another non job with inflated pay. Many know nothing about teaching and it’s not surprising that this lady did not get the Deputy Head job she coveted.
SENCO jobs are important, with justified pay. My daughter is a primary school teacher and will not consider the role of SENCO, having seen what a poisoned chalice the role is. Like most teachers, they are over worked, with limited resources struggling to help many children often placed incorrectly into main stream schooling. It’s important to remember their role affects ALL pupils, since the pupils they are trying to help often disrupt lessons for the rest of the school, reducing the teaching time for all. It is not an ideal system, but it’s the one we have atm.
@@bec9255 Maybe, maybe not. The fact that they were happy to share the reference with her suggests they thought they hadn't done anything bad. Just because the sub-par subjects weren't brought up in performance reviews previously, doesn't mean there weren't issues.
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One of my favourite people on here. He does not mince words when a caller is in the wrong, but he is always as supportive as he can be, with (what sounds like) solid advice. Amazing.
Yup, as a lawyer you're used to dealing with people only telling their side in a way that puts them in the best light. But he still makes it clear what their options are, even the ones they won't like.
This reminds me of something that happened to me when I worked in Sainsburys years ago. I was working as a supervisor when I applied for a trainee management scheme to become a store deputy manager. The manager received an email on store computer and deleted it (small Sainsburys Local with about 20 staff). The bastard deleted the email which invited me to an interview. I only found out when the deputy manager actually came and told me what happened. When I confronted the manager he said he couldn't have me leaving because he needed me to run the store during the evenings. I went and made a grievance complaint to the area manager and the store manager ended up resigning after he got a disciplinary. I ended up getting the job and worked as a deputy manager for another 4 years before I got fed up with retail. The slimy weasel tried to fuck me over to make his own life easier. The job wasn't even worth it, I was only making £1.50 more an hour then before.
Poor you at least you found out the truth!😮😂
I doubt that, they would have replaced you so it shouldn't have affected your manager unless you were doing extra work and they didn't think they could find someone to do that too
@@sie4431 Oh the manager had some other issues with regards to theft, this happened in 2011 at the Ealing Common store. Im not sure what happened to him but last I heard he ran away to Wales.
than
@@sie4431I don't doubt it, replacing reliable people is hard. You need to find them, train them and you don't know whether they will be trouble or leave. Most bosses would delete the email.
This is why some companies don’t give references. In my industry they normally (on request) write “We confirm that Joanna Bloggs was employed by us between XX/XX and XX/XX as a Marketing Assistant’ or whatever it was. Nothing more.
Yep
Most companies are like that
Although I'm British I lived in the US for a while and in Massachusetts that's all you could put period... thinking about it you might have been able to include salary too. Always thought of all the employment laws there that was one of the few I actually thought was an upgrade on the UK.
@@mjc8281 Interesting. So what you’re saying is that although it’s only an increasing convention here, in the US it’s actually the law that you can only give objective facts as a reference? I’m in two minds about whether it’s good or not. I’ve tended to think of them as character statements - imagine being in court for some horrible crime and your friend’s character statement is dry and factual only (“I knew Vlad from 2003 until today. I met him at work…”). On balance I probably agree with you - all the risk of bias and unfairness, and irritation for companies if people don’t like their references etc.
@@vladimirimp To be clear its state law not federal law, so it depends state to state. I must admit I liked it better, it basically takes the chance out of employment references.
I've never heard of a teacher getting a bad reference. Usually the very worst teachers get the best references so the school can get rid of them quicker!
I was a union rep for 15 years. There are no limits to what a head's ego wont let them do!
Sounds like this head wanted to block her move and knew EXACTLY what she was doing
This is spot on! Sounds like they want her to stay and are unfairly giving her a poor reference! I had the same thing happen to me
I worked for a supply agency and had to read those references. It isn't that uncommon for heads to give shitty refs
00:11
1:00
2:27
3:13 No!
3:59
4:42
5:08 Difference in earnings
I got refused a job because my previous employer forgot I asked him for a reference and refused to give one to my interviewer. I don't think you should be able to ask for references from a previous employer, your old employer should have 0 bearing on if you find a new job or not.
Especially with the 2 year rule limiting unfair dismissal claims. I was dismissed from a job after the most stupidly mishandled disciplinary process, I spoke to a lawyer and he said it would've been an easy case, except I didn't meet the 2 years service requirement to be able to bring it. The lawyer told me they were very unlikely to put in a reference that I was dismissed, because that would expose them to potential action, but they did. Fortunately I still got the job, otherwise they'd've been dealing with a lawsuit.
@@fang_xianfu You can always go to civil court, where you would have to show financial loss; you have up to six years.
I think employers who dismiss their staff for gross misconduct such as theft, violence, use of drugs or alcohol at work will strongly disagree with you. I for example love giving a chance to people and always try to accommodate candidates with health issues and pretty much never ask if there are any mental health issues at all as we all have some. However, I once employed a person who turned out to be a very aggressive schizophrenic who turned all my staff's lives into a living hell for the brief period she was with us. Just once day she snapped and Police needed to be called on premises. Everything that person had sinister undertones. I am now a fan of going back to old rules when candidate HAD TO state all the issues they have during the interview process. Because candidates don't have to do it her family threatened me with defamation case if I try to warn other local employers. Since then I learned recently that person did the same to 4 other employers.
@@xhy20x Out of all cases where employers provide honest bad references there is maybe 0.01% of candidates that were harmed by their employers. In the UK 'no win no fee' lawyer wants a half of potential reward for representing you and drops you as soon as the reward becomes unworthy. Even professional solicitor would ran a test on you that has to prove you have bigger chances of winning than losing before taking you on and that is even if you can afford at least 120-150 an hour to go to court.
I'm amazed that anyone (a) asks for references and (b) still gives them . They are just so prone to abuse. Try to keep a good employee by giving a bad ref or trying to get rid of one by giving an overly positive one. Utterly pointless. They are really worth nothing. For these reasons, subjective references are no longer relevant. My understanding is that most places of business will only acknowledge open facts e.g. length of service, maybe job duties ,etc. That's it. They are an anachronism and should be given the boot.
Cannot see the point of giving someone a bad reference. It's just spiteful. If someone is a bad worker, that will all come out when they start and they will get fired. Giving someone a bad reference out of spite is disgusting.
When you have had a truly awful employee surely it’s the morally right thing to tell the truth and save any future employer the grief? For example if you had an employee who was stealing money is it fair to let another employer find out the hard way and be left out of pocket?
A reference has to be accurate. You cannot lie in it, as the next employer could sue previous employer for misrepresentation
@@shez4058 I would not want to be the one giving references. Sounds like you could be sued either way. Of course, she could have given a performance review in the first place.
My father was given a bad reference once. He never worked in that field again. It was a huge struggle on us kids.
If dealing with someone in a personal or professional capacity has been a really bad experience why TF should I lie or withhold honest information to help them, thereby harming someone else who has done nothing bad to me (as that employer would have to learn the hard way)
That's deliberate sabotage from her employer which is definite grounds for a tribunal.
This happened to me. I got the job, was called later on in the week to say they could not offer the job to me because my last manager gave me a terrible reference. I left my last job, She had begged me to stay but I took redundancy. I was happy to leave because it was a crazy place. Had been to see her a few times in the two years I was there to say that I wanted to leave nd she had always persuaded me to stay. I asked her why she had given me a bad reference the conversation went off a tangent and I never got much from her. I didn’t pursue it, just got another role.
There are a great many heads who are the last people who should be in charge of anything.
Really appreciate every video you do Daniel, keep up the great work!
HR function: protecting an organisation from the actions of its employees
100%
It’s quite eye opening when you realise that HR are there to protect the company, not the employees!
I need to know what happened next!!!
The weird thing is the NHS doesn't allow staff to give formal references, at least in the organisations I am familiar with. The reference has to be provided by HR and only includes the number of sick days for the previous 2 years and whethere there are any outstanding discplinaries.
And that's all it should be. Way too tempting when asking for a character reference from someone who is about to lose one of their members of staff for them to write it just negatively enough to retain their employee by costing them the job.
Complete conflict of interest
How odd, I thought you couldn't give personal references anymore. Pretty much you worked for this organisation and how long for.
You're allowed to say anything you like in a reference as long as it's true. Yes, some places play safe and provide the minimal details but that's not because they have to.
@@1violalassthat’s pretty one dimensional.
@@1violalassyes this is a big a myth in the UK, that it’s “illegal” to give a bad reference. You normally hear it from people with shocking timekeeping skills. In a reference they’ll say they had poor timekeeping skills and the person will say, “you can’t say that.” Umm yes I can, in the year you were employed here you received a verbal and written warning for lateness.
These days most reffences are just started work ended work reason for leaving and positions held. Very few industries have report cards as such
This happened to me too. I suspect my old employer gave me a bad reference on top of telling me to withdraw from the job so i cant get another new job. Now i feel like they ruined everything and i hate them for that.
I have legal expense insurance through my home buildings/contents insurance for over 15 years.
It's poor management at least - if the caller had development areas then she should have been fully aware of them.
If there is no record of development needs then those development needs dont exist.
Had a similar issue, went for a global SME job when I was working as a local SME. All interviews went very well as I had done similar global SME jobs at other companies, was even told by the interviewers that they would be putting me forward for the position as the perfect candidate, then my manager was asked if I would be a good fit and she crapped all over me, when I asked WTF she was saying that for it was down to them not being able to afford to lose me at the local site as nobody else knew what I knew... bastards.
Fast forward 4 months and I put my notice in as I was leaving to go work at a consultancy on double the salary with as much training as I wanted, so they lost me completely rather than still having me but in a global position.
This is why most organisations only provide professional references such as date employed and location. Too many bad managers are willing to drag their organisation into legal problems.
If she had never raised these issues before it sounds like spite to me
Jobs are scam. I would raise a grievance stright away.
In the corporate world this never happens, companies are terrified of the legal ramifications
Sound advice explained perfectly
If they have screwed you over why would you care if it causes a difficult work environment, the headteacher has already done that.
Is love to know how she processed and what the outcome was. Hope it all worked out for her and she got recompense for that targeted action.
This shows just how stupid the reference system is. There's an incentive to write a bad reference to encourage a good employee to stay. And on the other hand, there's the incentive to write a good reference to encourage a bad employee to leave.
Note that I always had glowing references from all my employers....
Teachers are governed by separate rules and regs in comparison to a worker who does not work in a school. Thee must be a reason why the teacher has put that down.
Lots of employers are terrible at admin or performance management. Just because this lady's employer was incompetent in that regard, it doesn't mean she wasn't incompetent in the areas they raised in her reference. A reference wouldn't be worth the paper it was written on if employers just did their employees a favour every time one was requested and lied. The fact they readily shared the reference with her suggests they didn't believe they'd done anything they shouldn't have. Every time someone gets offered a job, a dozen or more others get refused - there's always someone better than you. Failing upwards isn't a right!
Sounds to me like she might not be ready to be a headteacher and the headmistress was outlining that fact. It doesn't mean the headmistress thinks she's bad at her _current_ job she probably just thinks she should be nowhere near an assisstant headteacher role. That's why the headmistress hasn't brought up any if these issues before. Because they don't currently apply.
Teachers do NOT have to tell their employers that they are looking for another job.
Secondly, references are always taken up BEFORE an interview in my considerable experience as a school governor.
So ? what was the solution ?
References are worthless other than to confirm how long you worked there. Teaching is one where it is particularly difficult as no teacher I have ever know will ever agree they are simply not good enough. Headteachers are worse because they have no backbone for conflict as they fear a teacher going off with stress at the first sign of dissatisfaction with performance. As a person who has conducted thousands of interviews over the years I have never relied on a references because some employers are so keen to pass on trouble makers they give glowing references whilst others feel determined to ruin others. A good interviewer will construct a fair way to test individuals on skill sets needed for the role especially if they are looking for a step up role. If any manger worth their salt does not do regular reviews of staff and document they are fools as it works both ways in improving people and finding out concerns which may be affecting an individual and others. In this case we have a one sided story which the expert was alluding to so it is hard to decide if she was actually hard done by and without seeing the questions asked in the reference we do not know the relevance.
You should build a tutoring firm..
Are bad references from a former employer illegal in the UK?
No, a reference needs to be true, fair, accurate and not misleading. It does not have to be good, full or comprehensive.
Employers have been sued over bad references. Most will only give basic details like when you started and finished, any time off sick etc. Just the indisputable facts. Things like disciplinaries are subjective (and often arguable, managers not following guidelines when issuing them, etc) so can land them in legal trouble.
Also GDPR is a minefield as a lot of information is now protected. The fines are huge if companies are found to be in breach.
TSB Bank Plc vs Harris (2000) is an example of an employer providing (confidential) information in a job reference of which the employee was not aware, and who was then able to successfully sue their employer.
I don't believe that references are worth anything more than a confirmation that the employee has worked there for a period of time...
If you have a good employee leaving, then saying anything other than good things would be cause for grievances and constructive dismissal etc.
If you have a bad employee leaving, then why wouldn't you want them to leave, rather than spend time/effort managing them out.
I suspect that providing a bad reference would be more likely if you have a good employee that you don't want to lose, or a really bad employee that you just want to stuff over.
A myth perpetrated mostly by subpar workers. “It doesn’t matter, they can’t give a bad reference anyway.”
“I don’t know if you know much about teaching but assistant headship applications are horrendous, it took me about 12 hours to complete”
*Barnett has Vietnam flashbacks*
👍👍👍❤️❤️❤️
I thought Daniel Barnett would be a old man with a bald head a bit like Ian Dale
To be fair he is nearly bald. He is currently using the comb over technique.
In Denmark this is illegal. Employer will just refuse to give one
You'll never see what the reference contact said, never be able to prove anything, so they can say what they like with no comeback.
That’s no true, the woman got provided the reference when asked, even if that had not occurred, they would be compelled under a subject access request
@@PedroGonzalez11111 I did a subject access request and was denied a copy of the reference by HR. I could only see the email chain it was sent in and who sent it, not the attachment
@ i think they acted illegally
That's why you write your own references under a made up name like Napoleon Big Bum or Adolf Smith.
Remember, don't write I'm brilliant, write they are brilliant.
Unions will not support constructive dismissal cases. They rarely go to court for members, I have scores of employees coming to me with this issue.
I have represented at court three times now for members of trade unions who were refused support and won both at settlement level and at judgement level. The solicitors unions use are unfair, unsupportive and downright wrong.
I have no recognised legal qualifications, but see cases regularly that are straightforward and supported with substantial evidence told ‘no’ by the unions. Citizens Advice Bureau’s do their best but can only refer to solicitors for representation that many cannot afford.
So few solicitors put aside a tiny amount of their time for pro bono work it’s sad and it’s left to people like me to do our best for free to help people in awful situations.
Most of the work I now do is for union members who are badly represented. I have to advise them that if they tell the Unions they are seeking outside advice they will cease to represent them but they are desperate for help.
Unions are becoming less and less effective and reps are getting no training on employment law outside of the company handbook.
Hi Can I have your contact please. I'm a member of a union, I've recently left my job in CD circumstances
Unions will only support a case today if it is 100% winnable and they can reclaim any costs. Other than that you're on your own.
@@william_marshalnothing is 100% winnable
Training on employment law is given to union reps. But most cases are sorted out through negotiated settlements, including agreed references, usually. It's tricky if people claim to be unsupported by their union - because it can mean that they don't like the advice they're being given.
Headteachers have an enormous amount of power, though. Lesson observations, and performance targets / areas of weakness are not appealable since there is no one a teacher can call in to independently verify their performance. A poor lesson observation, followed by another, can quickly lead to capability procedures and the possibility of job loss within a term, even. Depends how the systems are used - for instance a teacher may only be as 'good' as their last observation, - which can pressurise the more experienced, better paid, if the school is looking to save money - the highest cost in any school being salaries. It can be a nasty world, education.
SENCO - another non job with inflated pay. Many know nothing about teaching and it’s not surprising that this lady did not get the Deputy Head job she coveted.
If the reference was genuine and she is useless, she wins a payout either way. Yay for bad teachers.
Teachers are basically sack proof
To categorise a whole role in such a way tells me more about you and who you think you are than it tells me about the job role you are denegrating.
SENCO jobs are important, with justified pay. My daughter is a primary school teacher and will not consider the role of SENCO, having seen what a poisoned chalice the role is. Like most teachers, they are over worked, with limited resources struggling to help many children often placed incorrectly into main stream schooling.
It’s important to remember their role affects ALL pupils, since the pupils they are trying to help often disrupt lessons for the rest of the school, reducing the teaching time for all. It is not an ideal system, but it’s the one we have atm.
So she just sits with the crayon eaters in lessons and writes down the work for them?
Another barrister with ideas above his station
Hilarious 😆
Sorry but you think you are better than you are.
Unfortunately bad references mean a bad employee.
Maybe listen to the full call first. I can assure you that references are frequently weaponised by bad employers. Perhaps you're one of them....
@@bec9255 Maybe, maybe not. The fact that they were happy to share the reference with her suggests they thought they hadn't done anything bad. Just because the sub-par subjects weren't brought up in performance reviews previously, doesn't mean there weren't issues.
@@bec9255 I worked for a bad employer, and even I still got a good reference
@@duplicitouskendoll9402 so why not bring them up in a performance review?
@@nameundefinedname5307 So why not just perform?
I didn’t think that employers were allowed to provide detrimental references.
Companies don’t ask for references nowadays
Your previous employer cannot give a negative statement against you, but they can choose to answer questions
@ ok thanks I didn’t know that.