Usable Motors Please... DJI Avinox, ZF CentriX, Pinion MGU.
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 23 ก.ค. 2024
- I go through the possible fails of three of the most interesting motors from Eurobike 2024. Pinion MGU, DJI Avinox, ZF CentriX. No hype, just a realistic view of ebike motors based on experience. Plus a look at what it takes to get a motor to be accepted. Now think about it, compare what you have read or watched in the last weeks about these motors? Was it similar to the tyre review at the start of the video? Or just specs and hype?
Thanks to Goodyear for sending us advanced versions of the Wrangler to test.
Thanks to Leatt for supporting the channel leatt.com/int/shop/mtb
00:00 Introduction
00:20 Goodyear Introduces a new tyre the Wrangler, we actually tested it.
01:30 Motor Hype
01:33 Leatt Support
01:57 Shimano EP801 has enough power
02:48 MGU Pinion
03:34 DJI Avinox
04:22 DJI politics
05:04 ZF CentriX Eco system
05:33 In heat small/powerful motors can overheat....
06:14 Battery design has currently peaked
06:51 Customers want easy service for motors
07:52 Repairability
08:15 Conclusion
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In over 10 years of e-bike ownership and four separate e-bikes each with a different type of motor, you make more sense than any other video creator regarding e-bikes and the different e-bike motors I've come across. Thanks for contribution to the world of e-bikes because there is a lot of bias and ignorance out there.
Thank you for watching, I try to tell how it is.
Anyone who talks about motor power instead of motor torque is ignorant.
Fully agree with what you said. But please give this feedback, loud and clear, also to motor manufacturers whenever you are invited to test them. Motor manufacturers should be penalized hard in reviews for not creating serviceable systems, as if it's a must, not an option.
I will tell them....
Couple of points. A carbon belt drive for 1000 Watts is just better than in every way to a bicycle chain no matter the brand. DJI have more battery/efficiency experience than any other brand. Less dangly bits and lower wheel mass is also better. DJI has by far the best speed sensors, security software, bike interface, controls than anyone at Eurobikes 2024.
we need to see in real life what the system is like for a few 1000 km to judge. History tells us marketing is one thing, reality another.
Polini people might not know especially outside Europe but were a well known moped vespa parts brands used for decades before the internet they know how to make small engines and I'm not surprised they are very serviceable because they are used to sell "performance" ;) engine parts which were of course not installed by official shops
I don't care about motor power (all existing motors are powerful enough), but DJI's fastcharing is the biggest gamechanger for me. I'm so excited about the 12 amps charging that I'll probably preorder an Amflow bike as soon as possible. I ride a lot on the Alps and long full day routes easily have 3-5k meters (or more) of ascent. But with current technology this means carrying an extra battery and a charger and still most of riding done in eco. But if I can fastcharge the battery to 50% in 30 minutes, this basically means infinite riding and no need to carry a spare battery.
Their battery density is leading the pack at the moment. I'm interested to see how the cells last with faster charges. At the end batteries are a consumable item, even if we don't like that fact.
Fast charging in the boonies? LOL.
@@malanalan1 more or less every mountain hut in Italy will have power outlets for charging ebikes
Battery life is severely shortened the faster you charge. It also increases the chance of runaway thermal issues and fires. It's always give and take. I really hope DJI has a really good BMS to protect people fast charging in hot weather.
The real advantage of the Pinion motor is the gear box. As far as I know the motor is a variation of an automotive power steering motor.
Motor plus human power tend to chew through cassettes and chains simply because you can put out way more power than even a pro athlete can provide. A pinion gearbox is designed to withstand these forces especially because the gears have near to no width restrictions and don’t need to deal with dirt and grime.
The big advantages of a derailleur system are efficiency and weight which are both next to irrelevant on an eBike.
100% agree I have a TQ powered bike and that is more than enough for me where I am in my life it gives me enough help up the hills and I can go a little further but I truly believe that 70-80 NM’s would be the max you would want these motors that are exceeding 100 NM,s are just silly at least with my bike I feel like I’m still putting a substantial amount of effort into the ride
Great points. My personal hope is that that power numbers stay where they are, but the systems get smaller to allow them to be packaged into smaller frames. People who need XS frames are totally undeserved by the current market offerings.
Coooll thumbnail 👌 😂
And the tires are really good
I get your point about the Power, I ride a Trek Exe with the TQ Motor at 50nm and I'm 95kgs, riding in the Peak District with it's steep Rocky Climbs is difficult with 50nm when trying to keep up with my 85nm friends bikes so I'm also looking at full power bikes now and 85nm seems about perfect, what I've seen of the DJI/ZF motors so far this week is the lack of noise/whine that seems to be evident in the previous motor versions, for example the EP801/Bosch CX, this is probably due to me riding a TQ HPr50, so for me the reliability is key first, then the noise! In conclusion, masses of power is not the highest consideration for me.
Even the power of the EP801 is almost unusable at times.
@@alexbiketester Just remembered, your mate Steve at EMBN mentioned the ZF has a lifetime warranty on the Oil Bath Motor, that will be a massive selling point for people.
@@MTBGeordieDownSouth Yes, that will be important. Lets see what they do, going to take 5 years for these motors to have any kind of traction...;-)
I Agree with you 100% ,I ride in dales ,Yorkshire moors most of the time and orbea rise h15 get up it all in mode 1 , the only time I need more power is for really big climbs .
@@MTBGeordieDownSouth I wonder how they will define 'lifetime'?
the zf motor looks the most attractive to me if its anything like the zf car gearboxes it will be a reliable motor for sure but we will have to wait and see
I’ve ridden my TQ motor EXe in high mode up long, steep technical climbs in 105° F and it’s never over heated.
good. Not all of them do it. But it does happen.
It’s very easy to buy into the hype, so it’s good to get a reality check. It does mean more deals on existing tech. All this innovation is great though, keeps Bosch and Shimano on their toes. I do love the screen on that DJI it must be the best frame mounted screen to date. I think clutches and MGU’s is the way everything is going, but it’s still early days and much of the tech is unproven. It seems like full system set ups is where we’re at today, SRAM, Shimano and now also Bosch. Autoshift, etc..
Lastly very jealous of the Italian weather, we’ve had a crap summer in the UK this year.
Its pretty goo dweather here.... cant lie
Haha i almost mentioned the weather also.....DJI do seem to have done their homework, will be interesting to see why Bosch had all their CX motors covered up at Eurobike, think they may have had an OH SHEEET moment when DJI and ZF dropped. I'd also be surprised if ZF doesn't add a gearbox onto that Motor, it is after all their thing!!
@@MTBGeordieDownSouth ZF did surprise me with no MGU, I suspect that was a bit much to ask for the first model. I’m sure they have an MGU in the works.
This may simply be a way to get the attention of the big motor brands to sell their services, that’s the model they use in the automotive space.
Yes ZF might take that route. Thats what RIMAC do with motors for cars.
Well Pinion might not have had years of motor experience but they do have quite the long track record of Gearbox units.
I’m sure the MGU is up to the same durability standards.
Specially when it comes to sealing and gear quality.
Many motors fail on the gears they use (often plastic gears or bad sealing)
Pinion might have the upper hand on those specs
We need to talk to them about reliability and how they manage issues, at the end they will benefit like Polini has.
Good point on disposal culture. I’m afraid that’s the plan though…Mtn bikes have always wanted to be dirt bikes it seems. My 2008 KTM is reliable, repairable, and still a blast after 15yrs so they have some catching up to do. It’ll likely never end up in a landfill when it’s “obsoleted” by the industry.
Like your take on the cell-phone-ization of the ebike industry.
Agree with all your points.
Interesting for the ZF motor is that an aluminum frame is recommended for increasing the cooling effect as the motor is clamped onto the frame, but Raymon fitted it onto a carbon frame.
They need to sell high value bikes to make it start, most companies do that. The Oil is probably to aid cooling. We lack real world info, no influencer or youtuber has actually published anything useful which is my point... hahah
More power helps us heavier riders. I’m 18 1/2 stone and can’t keep up with my mates on the climbs due to my weight
get a sachs RS motor equiped bike. from nox..... shop.bmz-group.com/en/products/nox_hybrid_enduro_71_expert_bmz_rs_650wh
How reliable is pinion mgu motors? Do they melt like the other motors out there?
no idea, maybe a tech expert from Pinion can tell us?
Well, it is not about the power! It is about the torque! It is the torque/force that moves objects. F= m*a or a = F/m. Also, it is about assistance levels and giving the rider full control of the motor. We need manual modes, no auto-modes.
Thanks for pointing out the china angle!
Yes, but how do i get a shimano ep801 then, there is not inventory back in stocks for months, dji is a bigger company to be able to supply even on amazon, shimano is just dealer sales. I overheat a ep8 that died with the epp E01020, wanted to switch to ep801 and got a new ep8, the only way to upgrade is buying a 12k ebike & i rather just replace the motor from my 160e T1
We need more freedom for changing motors.... it is coming.
Service and reliability. Key point. My wife's Gazelle had a disintegrated motor (Impulse motor, 8,000 commuting k's). Couldn't repair, no replacement available, no provision for any alternative motor. $3,800 dollar bike made useless. Went with a German made bike with a German motor after that. Now with more than 11,000 k's and still running sweet.
exactly
Presumably a Bosche. What bike? Looking for reliability for my first ebike choice.
@@RoissyAngel Anything Bosch will do you well. Try looking at the Trek Rail 5 or 7
@@RoissyAngel Bosch has the edge on all but they protect their product closely. She chose a Kalkhoff with 26 inch wheels. It feels much lighter to ride than others. I chose a Focus that is more affordable for what you get. It has very confidant handling.
TQ's parts are hard to find here in the Netherlands, and also more expensive than for example Bosch. But most ebikes I come across here usually have bosch midmotors, or bafang hub motors. Never seen a shimano unit, but I also hardly see mtb's on the roads here. It's 95% citybikes
Great perspective! Polini isn’t available where I live. I’d much rather a gen 2,3 or 4 motor that has proven reliability, likewise I’ve also gone Shimano for the first time as a drivetrain, lots of different options and unlike a MGU no large single point of failure so I can use less expensive and more durable options and fix things while I’m travelling.
So is the Shimano EP801 serviceable by anyone in the UK?
Shimano UK, and a service in the south near fordingbridge hants.
@@alexbiketester Apologies, I realise I should be more specific. What I should have said is “any independent named service centres rather than Shimano themselves”. Thanks.
Good points! Why so much power? I really want more range! hehehe. My e-bike Oggi Razzo (Ananda t100 motor) has a 700 battery and I got about 55-60km in mid to hi power. For long rides I carry a second battery in Thule rear rack.
There are many new brands coming to the E-Bike market now which is certainly a good thing. Also French Valeo has a new motor gearbox unit and they are a big player. ZF ist certainly also an interesting player they own Sachs which has one of the most powerful motors in the market since several years and they have over 100 years of experience with gearboxes. Also ZF ist 10 times bigger versus a smaller player like DJI.
About the power I must say we didn't have a great motor nor battery when we did our 6561ft emtb capability test ride but when we tried really steep stuff I'm talking 50% 1:2 slopes on dirt or grass I did realize too much power was a bad thing, since only the rear wheel is powered the front wheel lifted and the bike tried to do a backflip even tough I was leaning on the front and am a heavy guy, for extreme use like this I think we I included need to study bike geometry and what angle the fork must have because this seems more limiting than the power which on a mid-range 3y old ebike was enough already that the bike seemed to leave us in place almost fell from the saddle, I'm sure current generations tame their torque better tough it was very on/off for us
You failed to mention the huge difference with the ZF. Sure, the motor is small, but the biggest factor for heat dissipation is the basic design. It uses an outrunner rotor, which while great for torque in a small package, suffers from a longer path for heat dissipation from the stator. CYC Photon (also an outrunner) manages heat reasonably well, and reduces power to the motor to avoid damage. That any other manufacturers don't do this is astonishing to me. If it is true that the ZF motor is oil filled, this is how they are improving heat dissipation.
yes that is why it is oil filled.
Totally agree with you 👍 💯 dgi and zf are the big names, but not in ebike and cycling, it's always interesting to see car companies coming up with crazy crap 😜 it's no different from Dyson doing ebike with vacuum cleaner 😅😂 god know what they are thinking laters 😀
And Bosch built dishwashers, stoves, refrigerators, tools, etc before jumping into ebike motors. Give them a chance to establish themselves. More competition is going to be a net positive for users.
Back in 2021 I had the opportunity to ride a friend's Haibike TQ HPR 120S, for a week. At first it was mind-blowing , on strait lines , country roads etc . In the really technical trails it was way to much power from that engine and it wasn't really controllable. In my opinion, 85-90 NM is more than enough for an e-bike. More than that, and we reach the sphere of electric motorcycles, loosing the fun of e-bike riding where it's not just about the engine, but also about the rider's technique and abilities.
yes!
Won't consider anything without integrated motor/gearbox now that it's been done.
Another company has an integrated motor/gearbox that is CVT soon to be released, which is my new target - when that's released I'll be looking to upgrade my ride (whenever they release the units themselves or they start turning up on ebay from junk bikes).
great to see the motors, but a bike is more than a motor.
Really great insights thank you, I would like to see more videos like this from you in the future
Will do thanks for watching.
Yes ebikes frames should be an universal measure, as it apply with deraleur ahocka handlebara tires, brakes. Is like building a kwad 30x30 mount for your desire esc/fc & motors
Waiting for that new Bosch CX5 motor, hope it is more powerful and quieter than the CX4
That will be a well considered useful supported motor for sure.
@@alexbiketester And the answer to the new motors as well
ah...another useful reminder of something I noticed but forgot after renting an emtb twice the 1st time was nearly flat except one steep slope where I tried to pedal as strongly as on my muscular bike to go up really quickly the motor oveheated and shutdown (it was an old early bosch) 2nd time was a more modern but still not current bosch gen2,3 i think this one didn't overheat despite the extreme uphill 6561ft done to test if an emtb could do what I wanted out of it reach remote mountain trails, didn't overheat but lightly burned my leg on the block it was HOT it was in summer with 35°C 95°F oh yeah also those engines only go on 10'000 bikes so not for me
Yes overheating is a highly under talked about probbablem. many talk about rain mud... but heat also covers half the planet...
There has been a couple times were my old shimano motor couldn't quite cut it up a steep section. 50% of the time it's rider error or not being prepared for what is to come... I have normal cable derailleur so can't just smash down gears up a hill xD
But there has been a few hills id be like "that be so cool if I could climb that... " bicycles are for fun so if there's people out there who find that higher power more enjoyment to their ride then yes power will sell :)
It's like owning a car or motorbike, yes this 1 litre shit box can get me anywhere.... can a Ferrari get me there in a more fun way most likely haha.
That being said power management is also key... if ur climb tight steep switchbacks you need the power to be steady and natural not jerky. Tunable power comes in play for this too. More overrun for sections etc.
After 80 NM power management is key, its easy to mess it up with a loose overrun or harsh cut off or too much wheel spin.
@@alexbiketester i drag the rear brake quite often when it gets technical to stop it jolting off.
I'm concerned that dji might know when I ride my bike and China may plan to Kom my strava segments.....
hahahahahah
I'm 69 years and 500-600Wpeak is enough for me usually only want 300W burst and little 360wh battery lasts long enough , I don't want an E trails bike pedal power keeps me healthy lol
DJI are 36v so they will be cooking at 1000w anyway
If the MGU motor proves the reliability expectations, it will be a revolution, it puts all available motors to the stone age
I have heard from UK bike shops that motor spare part availability from Bosch is very limited. Why China is the sole evil when Chinese companies produce innovative products? I am also concerned about data abuse from USA / European conglomerates. Why the hell am I getting personalized ads after watching your videos?
Data abuse is a problem. China and the west argue as they are competing and partners at same time.... Complicated relationship.
Such good points you are pointing out regarding motor support
Whilst I agree on pretty much all the points, the benefits you’re missing with these new motors are: 1 - Reduced Motor Noise (Yes, it matters) 2 - Wireless Remotes (Everyone loves an ultra clean cockpit) 3 - better top tube controllers (Having an array of data available as the default integrated option is key). Pity the ZF has wired controllers, and no top tube display :(. Hence DJI is nailing it where it matters. Would love it if we could get the above alongside an integrated gearbox unit & belt drive; that’s got to be the holy grail.
Thanks for the points. Will do a video on displays soon...
Just because you think that it’s enough power doesn’t mean the rest of us do! I would prefer to make ZERO effort on the uphill and save all my energy for the downhills so the more power the better for me. And most of the people I ride with have the same attitude.
If its to much effort down, you are riding really fast or need better suspension.... ;-) Video coming soon on that,,,, shooting tomorrow all being well.
@@alexbiketester yes I am riding really fast… that’s what most downhill orientated riders do… and whilst we may not be the majority (fat old men in Lycra, massively over-biked and scared shitless at the 30cm, drop making up that category), there are quite a lot of us who don’t care much for those long uphills.
Power it’s like money how could you not want a little more as long as you can control it with software but I think shimano is a little too weak.😊
New Shimano software Is great, check out my other test videos
Why does everyone say DGI? It’s DJI.
Djay I..... I'm eating the g
All tests on engines, batteries and controls should start like this: does this brand or model provide parts for repairs? Yes ? Ok so let's analyze the behavior. No? So we don't want to know, we won't analyze anything, we don't advise buying it, it's rubbish Its trash
None of these motors is all that repairable since there is extremely limited expertise to repair them and the repair costs are 50 percent of a brand new motor if its even repairable. Might as well spend the extra for brand new. No run of the mill shop will ever repair motors, they are simply to complex for them and its not really worth any consumers time to spend hours tearing something apart they have no idea about.
Oh yeah, I actually do want a motor with a lot more power, I would welcome that especially if it can still be derestricted.
Its good to read alternate opinions, the cost per hour is obviously important. If its on par with suspension upgrades servicing I think that would be fair.
Wow. Not the smartest tool in the shed are you? Do some research first 😂
@@todddecourcy5786 what would the smartest tool do? I assume be paid to say whatever they are paid by brands and convince unlikely viewers what they are saying is true. That's not me. My videos are based on experience and talking to actual motor designers creating an opinion with a for site for further investigation:-). Please do tell me which are you top five motors and why. I would also like to know on which bikes you have ridden them and for how long. I assume that you have also an array of experience of which you might know more. If you do again please make a video all about it. I'm being serious. No one on TH-cam with any kind of following is showing independent thinking. We need more voices like this. Thanks for your comment anD watching.
If you troll my father, I will troll you with my followers 😂
ANYBODY CAN OVER CHARGE A MOTOR TO MAXIMIZE POWER AT THE EXPENSE OF RELIABILITY AND LONGEVITY. You want throw away motors that last a year or two, well, now you got them. I want a balanced bike, quiet, reliable, good range, great suspension, looks good, useful informative electronics.
Hold on a second, polite state batteries are way closer than you think. Toyota and Hyundai-Kia will launch their new EVs with SS batteries as early as 2025. So at the latest they will be available in three years for E bikes. SS batteries will be twice to four times as energy efficient for the same volume and or mass.
They use cell tech that is not quite suitable for ebikes. I know a Tesla researcher who has three PhDs and he keeps me up to date. So insanely intelligent I feel like a mere child with elemental maths when he speaks...