Should You Carry a Firearm or Bear Spray? Backpacking in Grizzly Bear Country
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 มิ.ย. 2024
- Which is better to carry for protection when hiking in grizzly bear country, a firearm or bear spray? I'll take a look at this question from the perspective of which is the best tool for the purpose, particularly viewed through the lens of ultralight backpacking principles.
If you want to skip to tips for using bear spray: 05:37
US Fish and Wildlife statement: above.nasa.gov/safety/documen...
Bear Spray: amzn.to/3mB8Gwl
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I enjoyed your video. The debate between bear spray and firearms has a lot of different dimensions. Wind can be a major factor with the use of bear spray because it changes quickly. If a Grizzly bear is intent on harming someone, the bear spray will not be of use (from what I have read and seen on other videos) A pistol by itself is not enough protection Grizzly country. Their are many proven stories of hikers saving their lives with a 44 mag or 10mm pistol. There are proven stories of hikers using the whole can of bear spray only to lose their lives. If that particular Grizzly or Black bear is hungry, bear spray will not be effective. Bottom line: Hikers should never be alone, have a long rifle, pistol (10 mm , 44 mag) and a hunting knife. Carrying bear spray complicates the situation. If you are attacked by a bear, you have one or two seconds to make a decision (If you are lucky) on which weapon to use. My personal choice is not the bear spray but I may be wrong
Thanks for your response. I hope you don't mind if I (respectfully) poke holes in it. ;-)
Wind is often cited as a major flaw in the use of bear spray; however, the muzzle velocity of spray has been measured at 70 mph, which means that I would have to be out hiking in near hurricane-force winds for the spray not to be effective. In a 2006 study (l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fbearwise.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2017%2F07%2Fefficacy-of-bear-spray-smith-et-al.-2010.pdf%3Ffbclid%3DIwAR18ciWwmFfm3wkObqzB3giBjyT8U66JhNPImnOr9cifDMTz5MupCco5f4s&h=AT2_bXzg8iB_qTxRnpb5oFs16emJyV00EHu9T4A6KFkcQkvDVUFiVD3-QXRT9qCMgJSQnd9koyiiW-PdgmqYK5rAEt_8SlpAFZb9Z359cVvxsiH6s6udUhDusE_atdCdf5fO&__tn__=H-R&c[0]=AT3AnG7ES4wurAdLM5Bt1YL4jbhnp3q_GLlbDq-0KAYZjmO8WfcAeP8KFaJBzAxh99wx8yKC6nl2LfOXcKqkH_0R_yAiJb2B6AKnNaRgvUfGJwPA7ejEqVSSM0ykuXlroP9geWpBiGmgwXVn3WnnBGyaj1DrELyBRc2dyRmBUZarf8P7HJUNMy1W0XjpW7lqlmjcD4ViylnHzJ1Jgr7rvz4), wind was a factor in only 7% of the cases; "although, the spray reached the bear in all cases" and was effective as a deterrant. Wind is just not the giant flaw that many people seem to think it is. Will I get spray on myself? Sure, but it's still much more likely to be effective in a sudden situation of a charging bear than what most people are capable of with a firearm in that super-adrenalin moment.
You stated there are "proven stories" of hikers using spray but losing their lives. This is true, but it is extremely rare for bear spray to be properly deployed and not effective (
Yeah after COVID I will never trust a damn word from the US government
I don't disagree with what you said, but you did not mention the downside of windy or rainy conditions for bear spray use as bear spray is dissipated quickly and does not travel far in windy conditions. For those of us who don't mind the extra weight, I like the idea of having a gun for backup or for use in windy conditions. I am toying with the idea of having a non-lethal bullet chambered for the first shot or two, and then have lethal bullets for use if the bear does not stop its charge. Bottom line is there is no perfect system for all conditions and circumstances. The answer to the question of firearm or bear spray is situation dependent.
Points well stated and taken. Thanks for this response! For me personally, when I consider the rarity of encountering a griz at all (outside of Alaska, GNP or Yellowstone), plus the greater rarity of the encounter being aggressive, plus the even greater rarity of encountering an aggressive bear when the wind just happens to be in my face . . . I'll stick with the spray. But, as always, HYOH.
You make a persuasive argument for bear spray. I choose to carry both, with bear spray being my primary when backpacking. I believe in carrying a firearm everywhere you go, so it doesn’t make sense to me to not carry in the backcountry. It probably doesn’t fit into ultralight backpacking but I carry my bear spray on my FHF gear chest rig with their bear spray holster. It’s a great piece of gear that puts the spray right in front of you and allows you to shoot the spray without removing it from the holster. That gives you the benefits of 1) a very quick deployment, 2) if you were knocked down in the encounter your bear spray doesn’t go flying out of your hand, and 3) I can remove my pack and still have my bear spray on me. Plus the chest rig stores my fly fishing and camera equipment. Thanks for the excellent video!
Thanks so much! That chest rig looks pretty cool, thanks for sharing that tip.
I appreciate the discussion. Pepper spray has advantages such as simplicity of use and would be appropriate for certain people with certain abilities (or lack thereof). Firearms have their obvious deterrent combined with lethal force capability. So the question is more about who is using which tool, and when to get additional training in additional skills, just like other aspects of hiking where we can improve our skills in navigation etc.. The firearm with training in both safety, use and caliber selection mean there is a wider range of effectiveness when considering statistical data as the effectiveness comes down more to the skill and caliber selection of the operator vs the tool itself. After all, a can of bear spray is a can of bear spray, a firearm can be a wide combination of factors. There are other advantages to a firearm, such as being able to defend a companion at distances greater than what a can of pepper spray can achieve, saving precious moments in time. And this can be for other threats such as dogs etc. Regarding taking something that adds weight but little chance of being used, we should apply the same logic to other safety equipment such as PLBs, additional navigational or water treatment aids, extra food etc. and not make an exception to firearms. We should acknowledge that being free to choose options has a lot to do with their use. The more people use these tools the harder it makes it for others to take those choices away. To conclude, not everyone needs to carry a firearm but having one individual in a party adds a layer of safety and capability, and as previously mentioned, training for everyone is usually good just in case.
Thanks for your well considered response! You make some good points here. One clarification: the point about not carrying a firearm because isn't because it's unlikely to be used (like a PLB), but that it's redundant to the spray (which is both lighter and more likely to be effective, IMO). I like the point about a gun being a tool with wider uses; however, it does beg the additional question of how dangerous might it be to shoot an animal attacking someone else without accidentally injuring the part being attacked. Thanks again!
Both of you stop this nonsense. A well articulated, reasonable, and respectful discussion has no place on the internet.
I live in the Yukon, where I frequently go camping and hiking with my family. My wife carries pepper spray, and I have a 10mm pcc on a 2 point sling accessibleat all times (and from which i practice repeatedly). I would have a Gen V Glock 20, but back country living is not the priority for politicians. You're absolutely correct that if you try to aim for a charging bear and put it down, you'll lose. That's why with either the gun or the canister, the tactic is to spray and pray. Get out your gun and fire as many shots as quickly as you can. And make sure it's an ample caliber. A 9mm will not save you unless you are John Wick.
I have no proof, but anecdotally, both first-hand and second-hand, bears close to town, and those near popular campgrounds have become desensitized to loud noises. I have heard too many stories of bear bangers not doing anything, and so i would not trust the idea of firing a warning shot with a gun.
A con for bear spray is that if it's windy, it can blow in your direction and affect you and those around you, and hamper your ability to retreat to safety. Same thing if you're sleeping in your tent and a bear tries to get it. I'd rather shoot at the bear than spray inside my tent. Also, once on your clothes and equipment, the smell can actually attract bears. So if you're on a day hike, that's no problem. But if you're a few days back to civilization, then you've just increased your odds of another encounter. Better hope you still have more spray left in the canister.
The best argument for the gun being capable of being used for other situations is also the best reason for carrying bear spray. It'll work on any other mammal, well ok maybe not whales. If I'm on a hike and an aggressive dog threatens my child, sure I'm within my right to put that dog down with a bullet, but I would prefer to not punish the dog for being poorly raised by its owners. Bear spray works great for dogs.
Regardless of your choice, the number 1 thing to protect yourself is don't be stupid. Heighten your situational awareness and take precautions, such as not keeping your food in unsealed containers in your tent. And if you do carry a gun, then it's essential you practice until it becomes muscle memory. Too many people think they're cowboys, having not been to a range in years or after playing Call of Duty and watching John Wick movies.
Thanks for the statistics. I always carry spray. I never seen a grizzly up close but have seen a few black bears. For the most part they run away. Never had to use my spray and I hope I never have to. Stay safe everyone and good hiking!
My only encounter with a grizzly outside of GNP, he ran away too! Thanks for watching!
Thank you so much, I had been debating bear spray vs a firearm for months now for a wind rivers hike. I had scared myself into believing I needed a firearm after hearing about a hunter who was mauled there a couple years ago, and hadn't stop to think that those hunters had guns that failed in that situation.
Glad it was helpful! Worth mentioning also that, once a hunt is successful, it's a massive bear magnet due to the carcass/gut pile, etc.
CARRY BOTH
Thanks Dan. Have enjoyed the series knowing that the areas you backpack provide you with good perspective/experience.
You're very welcome and thanks for watching!
I'm in the firearm camp for various reasons (and don't expect anyone to conform my reasoning - we should all choose what works for us), but your video does a great job advocating for bear spray. Gives lots of food for thought. It was interesting to me that when we backpacked the Bob Marshall last year, we saw few other hikers with firearms, but lots with bear spray. However, the folks on horseback almost always had firearms and we didn't see any of them with bear spray. Not sure exactly what that means, but it was something that jumped out at us as we passed (or were passed by) different groups.
Keep up the great content, Dan. Appreciate your passion for it and all the knowledge you pass along. We learn a lot from your videos.
Thanks so much, really appreciate it!
Hey! I live next to the Bob Marshall, the outfitters I know carry a gun for all the normal self-defense reasons. Additionally, if a mule or horse in a train gets seriously injured then need to be able to end it's suffering swiftly and humanely.
Thank you! Very very insightful!
Glad it was helpful!
GREAT INFORMATION. THANK YOU.
Thanks for watching!
Great video. Great arguments. Totally agree.
Thanks for watching
Thank you!!!
You're welcome!😎
Bravo. 👏🏼 I feel strongly about this because firearm enthusiasts will keep me up at night on the trail shooting their guns who-knows-where, which brings me to my next point: don’t 👏🏼 shoot 👏🏼 guns 👏🏼 on 👏🏼 common 👏🏼 hiking 👏🏼 trails. 👏🏼 You don’t know who may be camping where or taking a $#%¥!
Yeah, that certainly an additional consideration! Thanks!!
@@ShastaBubba Seriously! One time this gentleman was walking around with a full kit like we used to carry in the Army. He had an AR-15, multiple spare magazines, ACUs and an assault pack. To impress his girl he went to a kneeling position, aimed the rifle towards a nearby berm and began unloading rounds. Ugh!
Great information. Very helpful to see what the deployment of spray looks like.
Thanks; glad it was useful!
We’ll, this one sure got the attention of many viewers. I’ve never encountered a Brown bear in the lower 48 but have “interacted” with several black bears primarily in GSMNP. They are a different sort than some black bears you might encounter since they are not hunted. Those encounters were in the days before bear spray was available. You just have to use your head and read the bear and situation and act accordingly. I carry bear spray now in Brown bear country. I have been near a number of Brown bears on Kodiak Island, where my brother lives, while fishing with him. He is a forester so encounters them often in the woods. Sometimes he sees them before they know he’s there and sometimes not. They are generally well fed and have readily available food with all of the fish runs through the summer months, five total, some of which overlap. The key to success is note the age and interest of the bear in you and your catch if you have fish on the shore. Some will try to steal your catch and those that will develop a reputation so the locals know where to watch for those. If they get too close too fast you are well advised to abandon your catch or get in your auto with and leave the area. It’s rare that someone is attacked or even threatened. With the inland Brown bears the story is that they can be more aggressive since they don’t have the readily available food fish runs provide and they are likely more territorial than the coast bears that encounter people more often as well as their own kind. If I were on horseback or had pack animals then I would certainly carry a firearm or two or three. Not on foot though. Too heavy. Just follow the bear country rules of food prep and storage (bear can for me) and don’t build fires. They are a magnet for bears in my opinion.
Great stories and tips. Thanks for sharing!
thank you for sharing your experience....
You're welcome! Hope it was helpful.
Your theory may work, but I think if am in bear country I should carry both the spray lasts 8 seconds and there’s the possibility that the charge could have wind on the wrong direction and may not get to the bear’s nose until is too close. I will rather carry a Glock 20 that has 15 rounds of 10 mm and the spray on the other hand.
Okay. It's your choice.
Good video! 👍
Thanks! 👍
I remember hearing about a grizzly bear attack in Alaska where a person was killed using bear spray, the whole can of spray was used, when his body was found, the whole area around his body was so strong from the bear spray your eyes would burn. The grizzly left the are most likely the spray was too strong. Then a black bear fed on the body.
Love that pepper seasoning! Yum!
One addition, you showed a hiker going through thick head high vegetation with limited sight, in addition to extra noise that would be a place to have the spray in your hand not the holster. Just my thoughts, thanks for the video.
Good point, thanks!
very well spoke
Thanks man!
I’ll take my Glock 20 over bear spray anytime. Bear spray won’t help much when the wind is against you. Also, consider the factor of multiple bears.
So. . . you're planning on shooting multiple grizzlies?
@@ShastaBubba If they got to close, or charged of course.
It's a good idea if you have to protect other people from an attack. Or if the bear returns after spraying it.
Very sensible approach to staying safe in Bear Country. I agree with this presentation 100%
Thanks; I appreciate it!
Good analysis! I don't do ultralight hiking so for me it's not a question of either/or. I carry both spray and firearm (12 gauge with alternating 3"buck/slugs) with the bear spray being my first goto. I carry the shotgun at ready but it's primarily for ease of mind while sleeping in a tent where the confined quarters would render the spray useless in the extremely unlikely event that my sleeping quarters get crashed.
Thanks! Sounds like you're a 'belt and suspenders' kind of guy. I shot a black bear (destroying our bee hives) on our ranch with 12 gauge bear load, so I know it works!
@@ShastaBubba I am familiar with shotgun slug rounds and also buckshot rounds. I also have some 20 Gauge slug/buck shot rounds combined. What are you referring to as a bear load?
@@wanttogo1958 I meant the slug rounds.
@@ShastaBubba I'm curious what kind of protection you had in place on your beehives that a black bear was able to defeat...
Thanks for a well balanced comparison in the "gun vs. spray" debate. I recently discovered that a can of spray 6 years beyond its expiration date is still extremely potent. Test fired the expired cannister, the wind direction suddenly shifted and blew a bit of it back toward me. Had to stand under the shower for 20 minutes to calm the effects down.
Lol. Even when I fired the can in the video, there was no wind, but I lingered in the area too long and started to experience the effects.
That's a problem with bear spray in my opinion: if you spray the bear but the wind is coming in your direction, you'll have bear spray in the eyes and a bear still coming for you. Personally I would carry both a firearm and a bear spray.
Thank you. I recently moved to Colorado from Virginia where I encountered black bear with my dog. I was considering to buy a gun for protection from the mountain lion but after educating myself I came to the same conclusion then you. Bear spray is the best choice. Also practicing shooting take a lot of time from hiking or fishing.
Hey, you're welcome. Thanks for sharing your story and safe hiking!
I agree with your comments and for backpacking I always carry my bear spray on my hip like you. Especially when solo, I think it is the best option, and in national parks (here in Canada) firearms are illegal and not even a choice. But I do sometimes wonder if a bear was attacking another person, I would prefer a firearm. From close range in prone or knee position, so the trajectory isn't likely to hit the victim on the ground, I could eliminate the threat without filling the area with spray. I have seen that spray hang in an area for long periods of time, which not only has further harmed the victim but may make first aid difficult to impossible. I agree that spray is better, especially for backpacking, but can't argue that having both is even better. So for backpacking I just take spray, due to weight, and for basecamping I always have both. Also, because I agree that most encounters on trail are just surprise, but a bear choosing to come into your camp is more concerning to me. A shotgun is a bearbanger with a backup.
Interesting scenario to consider. Have you seen that movie "The Revenant"? That scene when the bear attacks? The way that guy was tossed around so wildly, it's hard to imagine getting a clear shot while that's going on. You're right though, pretty much anyone would feel more secure with both, but as you also indicated, when backpacking, we make choices based on most likely events/uses in order to keep the load as light as possible. Cheers!
Thank you for your very reasonable views... I recently had an online argument with someone who was completely on the gun side, and my continual comment to him was “why do you wan’t to kill the bear for doing what comes natural, when you don’t have too?” and he kept answering “because it was him or the bear!”... I wish I had the US Fish and Wildlife document for that argument. Love Montana by the way!!!
You're very welcome. Trying to add 'light' versus 'heat' to the discussion!
"“why do you wan’t to kill the bear for doing what comes natural, when you don’t have too?" That's not a logical argument. First, the potential victim of the attack undoubtedly does not want to shoot the bear. Second, it's not a given that the potential victim doesn't have to shoot in an attack situation and/or use bear spray as an alternative. Example: hiking areas that are often windy where bear spray efficiency may not be a given.
A sensible and well thought out video. I especially like that he considered the needless wounding and/or death of the bear.
The gun folks are, of course, chiming in about guns being better than bear spray. Apparently the statistics cited in this video don't override their personal fears and prejudices. It would seem the survival statistics, 98% for bear spray, 50% for using a gun, would be convincing. But when you are locked into that gun owner mentality, statistics apparently don't matter.
I've been backpacking for nearly 50 years. I live in Colorado and rarely even see bears (other than ones in my front yard a couple of times). My guess is that they smell or hear me first. I used to do a lot of backpacking in the Smokies in NC, and frequently saw black bears. They never posed any threat. I've backpacked and sea kayaked in Canada, Alaska, Montana, and Wyoming, some of the more likely places to have bear encounters. I've seen a few black bears and a few grizzlies in those places over the years. Again, none ever seemed to pose much threat. While in those areas, I do carry bear spray since it has become available (wasn't a thing 30 years ago).
But I more depend on prevention. I keep a clean camp and hang my food. I pay attention to my surroundings and make noise in areas where I might startle a bear.
Thanks for this feedback! Really appreciate it, and the experience backing up your perspective. Sounds like you've done some great hiking!!!
Great video thanks. I've been there with an athletic bear making its slow determined approach and threatened the bear with three strikes of my walking stick and it jumped back 15 ft. or so. I took that opportunity to turn and walk back down the trail keeping aware of the bears response. The trail went down a brook and the bear followed me above at the ridge line. You are absolutely right it is the slow determined gait you need worry about, so thanks.
Thanks for sharing your story and glad the ending was happy!
Thanks! A dose of common sense.
Your welcome. Happy trails!
Thanks for that. Never encountered a bear and hope I never do. I do carry a .357 and bear spray when I'm in bear country, though nowadays just do car camping and light hiking.
Thankfully, my bear encounters have all been benign thus far and I hope the continue that way!
I would not carry bear spray after spending a career in law enforcement starting in the mid 90s when pepper spray was the only non lethal option we on our belt. I promise you every time you deploy spray you will be contaminated at some point in the encounter. So imagine your down wind of a bear, it’s close, you spray, now you can’t see or breath as your being mauled by the bear. Being mauled is bad enough, but to imagine being blind and suffocating at the same time! No thanks!!! For us at the time spray was optional, after the first 5-10 uses everyone pulled it off their belt and put it where it belonged, THE TRASH CAN!!!! That stuff hurts, I fought 3 different individuals at different times covered in spray and its a nightmare I don’t wish on anyone!
Thanks for sharing your perspective and thank you for your years of service! What I think you're missing here is that nobody wrestles with the bear after spraying it. ;-) It's extremely rare for bear spray to be properly deployed and not result in the bear running away. Also, as I've pointed out previously, the odds of everything lining up perfectly to have an encounter with an agressive bear and the wind just happens to be in my face are practically nil. Could happen sure, just very unlikely. Still, hike your own hike and carry whatever helps you sleep at night my friend!
I have carried both in every instance I've backpacked in the Bob. I'd rather have it and not use it, than not have it and need it.
Thanks!
That's very important advice to not spray into the wind when testing. Even the slightest breeze will make it very unpleasant. Speaking from experience here, lol.
Ha, ha! Not a lesson you're going to forget, I bet. 😉
Good info, Seen some studies lately saying that the most dangerous black bear encounter is not surprising a mother with cubs, it's actually lone male bears that have decided you are prey and they actively hunt you. It's a rare situation I am sure. It is more common in areas where bears are more desperate for food. But if a bear decides to hunt you, you are screwed without bear spray!
Good point. Adolescent bears get pushed out by their moms when the new cubs are due, so have to establish their own territory, which make them more unpredictable than an older bear.
Which would I carry for protection? BOTH.
Heavy.
I am with you! Carry both. A few extra pounds is nothing and I am way better at drawing a weapon than trying to spray a canister. Now, if the bear spray wasn't so expensive and I could practice deploying it a few hundred times....
This is one of the best and most realistic videos on this subject i have seen nicely done.
Glad you liked it! Thanks!
I carry both Bear Spray & a handgun, but I'm guilty of sometimes leaving it in my vehicle at times.... ... Back in 2013, I was Van Camping near Happy Valley-Goose Bay, Labrador, Canada and a huge Black Bear tried to break into my van around 2am while I was in the back sleeping and I awoke to the van rocking... At that time, I had no Bear Spray or a gun, but only a 13in blade survival knife... I quickly reached over and started honking the horn over & over & over relentlessly, and the bear eventually ran off... In 2020, I was hiking in Yellowstone Nat'l Pk., and I saw this Bull Elk coming towards me so fast, but it was too late to use the Bear Spray and he came within 2 feet from me and I jumped backward, and he circled around, but then he ran off.... In 2023 I was hiking near New Rive Gorge, West Virginia and around the curve of the trail was a large Black Bear about maybe 50 feet away... I raised my hiking staff and waved it over my head and it ran off, so I didn't have to use the Bear Spray that was clipped on my chest harness.... I have been an "On & Off" Van Camper for roughly 40 years Van Camping all over America, and I've visited 48 States & half of Canada.... With that said, THE GREATEST THREAT OF ALL IS HUMANS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes, you stand a greater threat from people than any other animal on earth, and Bear Spray does wonderers on bad people.
Great stories (thanks for sharing!) and I think your last point is the most important one. Many of us imagine we could be cold hearted in the moment and shoot another human if necessary, but the truth is any decent human being will hesitate to pull the trigger, but if you're using bear spray, no need to hesitate and neutralize the threat.
@@ShastaBubba ... yes, and that's why I said Bear Spray, and I actually carry it around all the time out in public everywhere I go... and it's legal in all 50 states, so long as I let the police know (if asked) that it's "only" for bears, even if I'm at the grocery store... I never leave home without it... LOL
The answer is BOTH. They aren’t mutually exclusive. Spray for the bear that just won’t F off and firearm in the event you are actually attacked.
Seems like a lotta weight to carry for an extremely rare event . . . but HYOH!
What’s not mentioned (even in the comments) is the possibly more dangerous encounters with two legged vermin . I cast my vote for both firearm , (.357 minimum) and bear spray., 🙏💕
Good point and well worth considering. Thankfully, where I hike is so remote that nobody creepy is willing to put in that much effort to be there! ;-) Here's another thought for you though; unless you are a police officer or military, most folks will hesitate to pull the trigger at a human, even in severe circumstances. People like to talk tough, but when faced with the reality of taking a life, instinct kicks in and there is a pause. But if you're using bear/pepper spray to defend from a human, there would be little hesitation to deploy non-lethal deterrant. On the other hand, a bear is smart enough to give up and run away when sprayed -- can't always say the same for humans! Happy (and peaceful) trails!
Dan, sounds like one of the best “encounter” preventatives is a way to let the bear know you are there in advance. What would you recommend for this? I’ve heard of bear bells. Are they effective?
Local "wisdom" says that bears have learned to associate bells with tourists (who tend to be careless with food storage). Don't know whether this is supported by actual reasearch, but can say that I've never used them, nor have any of the folks I hike with -- for which I am thankful because they would drive me nuts! ;-) It is a good idea to make noise to let bears know you're around, but I usually base that on whether I'm seeing bear sign or not and whether I'm in a place where a bear might be lurking/grazing and not hear me. That means I'm calling out "hey bear" about 10 percent of the time I'm hiking. More in GNP.
Dan, what do you think about using NRS Hydroskin Socks ?
I have a pair of neoprene socks (not sure the brand, but think they're NRS) and like them a lot in certain situations. I use them mainly for packrafting when my feet will be in cold water all day, but I've occasionally used them to hike in snow with my trail runners and they are good for that too; although, I wouldn't bother with them unless I expected to be hiking for hours in the snow . . . wool-blend socks are plenty for short stints like crossing a snow field in the spring. Why do you ask?
@@ShastaBubba I was planning to bring a pair but my pack weighs too much as it is....I need to find ways to cut weight so my neoprene socks probaly wont make it nor will my waders or wading boots
Appreciate the video and the way you present all the information.
I do understand the peace of mind that carrying a firearm brings to some people, but I would always advocate for carrying both in that case. The amount of firearm owners who have never had to discharge their weapon in a high stress situation (99% of them) and think they are going to down a charging bear in the few seconds before it reaches them are living with a false sense of security. In a vacuum I understand the thought process that bullets are more of a sure thing than spray, but your odds of successfully deploying the spray and adequately hitting the bear with it are exponentially higher than that of landing the shot/s needed to stop or deter a bear.
Again though, if you're willing to carry the extra weight, I do get wanting to carry a firearm as insurance. I understand bear spray disappears relatively fast if you need to use it (leaving you empty handed for the rest of your time out), as well as the fact that a firearm can be used to scare bears away at a distance.
Thanks for your input! I'll only comment on the last point to share that, in my experience, shouting and waving the arms (looking big) was plenty effective in chasing off a bear. It's only in situations of high aggression/protectiveness of a carcass or young that either means of defense is necessary.
@@ShastaBubba I agree!
Just to clarify, when I say used to scare bears away at a distance I am just referring to the sound of a shot, not suggesting anyone should be shooting a bear to scare it off.
Some think a warning shot will stop a bear I killed a 200# bear in AK . The first shot didnt phase him I got 4 shots in him . He made it 30 yards , I waited till the next day to go in the brush , he was dead.If a bear is charging I recomend going down on 1 knee & yelling .Before shooting sometimes its a bluff charge .I would carry both spray & a large cal handgun. The AK bear put me on top of a pickup .
Thanks for sharing your experience. No doubt, bears in AK are a whole different kettle of fish.
What do you think about wearing a bear bell? Is it too irritating to the wearer or is it worth it?
Not only irritating, but ineffective. Locals around Glacier National Park like to jokingly call them "dinner bells" --conventional wisdom being that bears have learned to associate the bells with tourists, who tend to be careless with food and are the only ones who use them. Another local joke: how do you tell black bear poop from grizzly poop? Grizzly is the one with bells in it.
@@ShastaBubba I accept your experience, but I see a flaw in that answer. If bears associate the bells with tourists, then those bears are either going to steer clear of the tourists, or there's a much bigger problem than accidentally surprising and spooking a bear. If it's the latter, it doesn't make sense to be around there at all.
Does bear spray work well with Black bears & Mountain Lions?
Sure does! (Although I believe mountain lion attacks on adult humans are virtually unknown.) Bear spray work on two-legged predators as well!!!
Bear spray will always be a better choice!! Thank you for having the initiative of talking about these difficult but necessary topics🙂🙂!
My pleasure! Thanks for watching and Congrats on making 1K subs!!!
No bear spray is effective, but is not always the best choice. Bear spray is basically useless in a lot of weather conditions. In rain and snow it is useless, and it is also useless on a windy day. Bear spray is only good in the right weather conditions. Try spraying bear spray when the wind is blowing 15mph or more. Try spraying it when it is raining or snowing.
Over the last few decades I have spent a lot of time in the backcountry in both Black Bear and Grizzly country. I love backpacking, fishing, and hunting for deer and elk. I usually go solo, and I have carried both firearms and bear spray. I have come to my conclusions based on real world experiences and doing my own research. I HAVE AVOIDED STUDIES by so called experts with their statistical data because there is almost ALWAYS a bias one way or the other. I favor the firearm over bear spray but that is not good for everyone. I run 1400-1600 rounds of ammo through my pistols per year. Many people that purchase firearms end up never practicing with them and would be much better off with bear spray. I have taken friends to the shooting range with me that are not able to stay on target at even as short as 21 feet. I have had to draw and fire at a bear twice in the my lifetime. In both cases the roar of the pistol quickly made both bears change their mind. In a woods defense situation everything has to be instinctive and true muscle memory can only be achieved by lots of practice. As already stated: Most people who carry firearms do not practice and would be better served by bear spray. I practice shooting with a two had grip, left hand only, and right hand only. I also try to practice in different positions.
Thanks for your input!
Nice video Dan.
I have another question for you: What is the best way for a hiker to do their business ( defecation ) in a place like the Bob which requires leaving nothing behind including biodegradable toilet paper or baby wipes in the hole with the excrement ? Do hikers in the Bob really put used toilet paper or baby wipes into a ziplock bag and hike them out to civilization ?
Great questions and might be a whole 'nother video here, but . . . 1) all TP is biodegradable, would clog septic tanks and sewer systems very quickly otherwise, 2) some folks do carry out used TP, but that is rather extreme unless in a VERY well traveled place, 3) acceptable practice is to dig a 'cat hole' apx. 6" deep and bury poop and TP, 4) I recommend the book, "How To Shit In the Woods" (really!), and 5) I'm actually planning to experiment with a bidet-type system this year, which would make everything much simpler and may have the added benefit of reducing chaffing. More to come!
Some animals will eat your poop because of the protein content. Same reason dogs eat cat poop. Cats have a high protein diet. So I don’t worry much about properly placed, relative to water sources, and buried poop but I always pack out my used TP. I too am experimenting with the bidet solution but still think I’ll carry a little TP. TP does degrade eventually but not before animals who dig up the poop spread the TP around for all to see. I’ve seen this more than once in GSMNP where you must camp in designated sites and not all have pit toilets. In the Zion NP Wilderness you have to pack your poop and TP out. Get a WAG bag for that. They sell them where you pick up your permit. In the dryer parts of the West my thought is TP needs to be packed out or possibly burned if you build fires (I rarely do so). It takes a fair amount of moisture for TP to actually break down and it needs to be the ‘septic safe’ type, not the “oh so soft” variety.
There are no shortage of bears. If fact the ideology of protecting the bears has lead to way more encounters that ends up with damaged property and injury/death to people.
Bears come in three categories: menacing, defensive and predatory.
While menacing can easily be delt with loud noise or bear spay, a defensive bear can be quite dangerous and a firearm might be necessary. A predatory bear certainly deserves the business end of a gun.
Is being disfigured for life or loosing ones life more important than a bear? I think not.
I carry both.
It sounds like you have black bears in mind and might have missed that I was talking more about grizzlies, which being on the endangered species list are pretty much the definition of "a shortage." Also, just want to clarify that nobody is talking about being mauled/killed in order to save a bear. The choice is to deter a bear with spray versus killing it with a gun when the bear is just surprised or guarding it young or recent kill, i.e., just being a normal bear. Definitely agree with the point about predatory bears just needing to be put down. Anyway, thanks for your thoughts and HYOH!
@@ShastaBubba You are correct. I was thinking of the lower 48. Black bears are everywhere and do cause problems. It doesn't make sense that states have bear hunting season to control population and then heavily criticize the use of deadly force by a citizen threatened by a bear on any given day.
In my view bear spray is more about saving the bears life than the consideration to which bears can maul or kill a human. Does it deter? Sure. But does it rise to the level needed to protect human life or disfigurement? There have been many people mauled by bear that tried to defend themselves with spray.
While I have never killed a bear, I have had two serious run-ins with bear. The first was when three of us were backpacking the Pacific Crest Trail. We were spread out about 30 yards along the trail and down in a bowl when a large Blackbear came running down into the bowl. We all moved in different direction not knowing who this bear was after. Nobody ran and we all faced the bear from our own areas yelling, waving our arms around, banging things and even led to throwing rocks. The bear took turns at us one at a time. I would say we were each doing our own version of back peddling when it was our turn. I believe each of us just wanted to get out of its way. Would bear spray have worked during this event? Looking back on it, probably. But watching that bear go after my girlfriend, I sure would have shot it had I had a firearm. Having a four-way rodeo with a bear for over ten minutes was terrifying. The bear finally stopped in the middle of it all and slowly walked away. It made its point. I guess you would call that a lot of bluff charges. A lot!
The second time I was deer hunting. I had walked to the edge of a meadow and crouched down a couple feet in the tree line to see if deer were out there. Within a couple seconds I could hear grunting, growling/snarling and heavy breathing. I stood up and turned around to see a large bear six feet from me moving fairly fast on all fours. It wasn't running but it wasn't walking either. It was moving quickly. Its back was a bit higher than my waist and I could see its teeth and breath. Steam and snot were coming from its nose.
My rifle was at the hip pointing at its face as I had no time to shoulder the weapon.
I don't know why, but in that instance, I felt the bear was not coming after me but wanted to get by. You see it was moving not directly at me but at a ten-degree angle. It wasn't much but I thought if that angle changed in the slightest, I would fire!
As the bear passed me it was no further than four or five feet, but it kept going in a straight line. While I was still trained on the bear with my rifle, I was trying to process what just happened. The immediate danger went past me in a matter of three seconds.
In this instance there would have been no time fumbling with bear spray.
As the years past and much thought about that day I've come to realize that at least fifteen hunters were on that mountain. The bear was simply trying to get away from people and had been moving fast for a long time. It was tired but kept moving toward safety. It wanted no part of us on the second day of deer season.
What have I learned from these and countless other sightings of bear in sixty years? Bears are not monsters, but they can be unpredictable. They can be up close and personal in seconds without you knowing they are near. They are capable of inflicting great bodily injury or death.
While the debate continues on what's best to carry in bear country, it's not a one size fits all. I would encourage anyone venturing into the back county to carry a large caliber handgun and bear spray for hiking.
If in a static campsite a rifle and bear spay are preferred.
I hope I never have to kill a bear but if I have to, then I have to.
Keep enjoying the great outdoors and I will do the same.🌲🐻
Always a lot of talk on this. Either is better than nothing. As lightweight hiker I judge the risk to be bear spray in the Appalachians - might think different somewhere else. Both is better but the weight is too high - rifle obviously best. Only thing I have ever used was a boat horn (strangely rarely talked about) to be honest to scare them at distance and yes I've met a few. You do you.
Good point about the boat horn, should be considered. Did you see Joey's video trip in the Scapegoat when he met a griz and dropped the horn? Funny.
I wonder what the statistics are for bear/dog confrontation. Given the number of people who like to hike with their dogs, my hope is that the bear would get frustrated by an aggressive dog and withdraw.
Good question! I don't know the stats, but the old timers used to say that a dog just brings the bear to you. Dog sniffs out bear. Dog hazes bear until dog gets scared and runs back to owner. Bear chases dog back to owner. Presto! one pissed off bear in yer camp. :-) Have to admit that never actually happened to me when I used to hike with my best buddies (Shasta and Bubba).
@@ShastaBubba Good point. I can see some dogs running for cover. But the hunting-style dogs, like boykins and pointers, don't seem to have a flight response.
@@Russell.Jolly.2023 That's true. I know they use bear dogs to haze the grizzlies away from the parking lot at Logan Pass in GNP. Some breeds don't scare for nothin'!
@@ShastaBubba That's probably Karelian bear dogs. They use them here in WA to haze black bears.
If the spray is high pressure psi, is a jet, not a cloud, can be shot at least 7 times, and is so potent that it will cause the bear instantaneous suffering (such as pure capsicum), yes, have one, without second thought in bear country.
You only have one chance though, since a charging bear can charge right through the spray despite it being painful and still reach you and bite your neck or head. This means the bear will kill you.
I don't think it is a superior alternative to a snub nosed revolver of no less than .45ACP caliber.
My opinion is a lever action 45-70 short carbine slung across the chest for rapid deployment to the shooting shoulder is the best bear protection in bear country. If one doesn't like handguns.
If one chose to have a handgun, the one described here is logical since it is lightest, is most handy, can't get snagged on something, is less complicated to learn to shoot, is simply operated by pulling the trigger (revolver), and is less costly than the rifle. Such a weapon is best holstered on the outer side of the mid thigh.
One should practice dropping to one knee and train to shoot quickly from the draw and rapidly six times one handed, with the bear skull or snout as the aim point.
One should also train oneself to shoot the weapon with the left hand also, even if in rudimentary agility, in case the bear rush injures your right arm and you're left with being on the ground being bitten.
Bear spray definitely comes out in a cloud, as demonstrated in this video. There have been virtually no recorded instances of a bear charging through a cloud of spray and then killing a hiker, it's that effective. (In the very few instances where bear spray was deployed but the person died, we don't actually know if the spray was used correctly, or at what point in the attack.) Statistically, folks who relied on firearms for protection have a 50/50 chance of survival. I agree that training is key, which is why it fails because it's impossible to train for aiming while a bear is charging you. But, you gotta do what you feel comfortable with.
@@ShastaBubba
Three men, in different separate events, Daniel Shilling, Stephen Riley and Charles Mock, were all killed and partially eaten after having been found to be equipped with bear spray and used it.
Spray did not work.
The bears fatally killed them.
@@ShastaBubba
Jenny Gusse and Doug Englis were killed by a bear. Their empty bear spray cannisters were found.
First why not carry both? Second aren’t brown bears more aggressive towards humans - more attacks?
Good questions. Simple reason not to carry both is weight. A fundamental guideline of ultralight backpacking is not to carry anything unnecessary, i.e., if I have one tool that serves the purpose, don't carry a second tool for that same purpose "just in case."
Yes, it's accurate to say that brown/grizzly bears are more aggressive, which means that a black bear is likely to run away from an encounter, while a griz may stand it's ground or even offer a 'bluff charge' to get the human to back off instead. Although, in my one encounter, the griz ran as soon as he perceived my presence.
Thanks for the questions!
Nothing wrong with 🦨.
Hey have you ever sprayed a skinwalker?
Not as yet, thankfully.
Is that a Luger in the thumbnail ?
.22 cal Ruger, actually. Not something anyone would actually use against a bear (unless you really wanted to just piss it off!). ;-) Just needed something for the pic. Thanks!
The biggest disadvantage of bear spray : Its total lack of coolfactor.
You are more likley to die in a car accident on your way to the hike, break your ankle and suffer hypothermia on the trail, drown in river while wading, etc. Non of these threads can be met with an 6" .44 magnum.
I think you nailed it!
I think that one of the funniest ideas ever to be accepted by supposedly intelligent people is the notion that if you encounter the most dangerous animal that you possibly can you should try to defend yourself from an attack with an aerosol can. 😂
I doubt that anyone who has experienced a face full of pepper spray would described that little can as "funny."
Your scientific method way of laying out your argument is 10/10
Thanks so much for watching!
Are you Johnny Knoxville’s father ?
Um . . . nope.
SBA have you done the math on how likely it is that bear spray will stop a bear coming at you at 30 MPH?
If a bear is charging you at 30 MPH and you shoot off bear spray that will hit the bear at 30 ft from you it will take the bear less than 0.7 seconds to reach you from 30 ft. away.
The bear can not turn away from you in less than 0.7 seconds. The bear can not stop in less than 0.7 seconds. You can not get out of the way of the bear in less than than 0.7 seconds.
Yes bear spray might work if the bear is standing still or moving slowly but if the bear is charging at full speed how will bear spray work? Then of course there's always the problem with the wind and rain.
OTOH if you have a rifle or gun you can scare the bear off by firing a warning shot close to but not hitting the bear when it it much farther away, say 75 ft or farther away. If this shot does not scare the bear you still have time to take another warning shot or to kill the bear.
Thanks for sharing this perspective; I appreciate you taking the time to make these good points. I hope you don't mind if I point out what I think are some flaws in the basic assumptions made here.
First and most importantly, a bear isn't going to charge a human unless they feel threatened. At 75 feet away, they aren't going to feel threatened and wouldn't be likely to charge. A warning shot wouldn't be necessary because you could just yell "hey bear" to warn them of your presence and they would likely wander off in the opposite direction, as happened in my case when the bear was only about 50 ft. away.
That means that the only time you have to deal with a charge is when the bear is already close and wouldn't have time to achieve full running speed, so I believe the assumption of 0.7 seconds reaction time is not accurate (there are so many variables to this scenario, I don't think we could make a true assumption that would fit 'most' cases). I do agree that it would be very short though, perhaps only a few seconds at best. So, with only a few seconds to react, the time it takes to draw a pistol versus can of bear spray would be apx. equal, but the spray had the advantage of not needing to be aimed accurately. A rifle would be useless in this situation due to amount to time to deploy it (unless you hiked all the time with it in your hands).
You are absolutely correct that wind and rain limit effectiveness of spray and the gun would have a clear advantage in that situation. However, that's taking a rare event and making it even more rare; facing a charging bear AND the wind is blowing AND it just happens to be blowing in my face.
Ultimately, the proof is in the pudding (i.e., real encounters), and there I fall back on the clear statistics that say people were nearly 50% more likely to be injured or killed when using a gun vs. bear spray. All of the aspects I've described are merely an attempt to explain that fundamental fact.
@@ShastaBubba I've read some of the studies and what I find lacking in most of them is the details.
For instance, the studies that say people were 50% more likely to be injured or killed using a gun vs bear spray. Did the person know how to use their weapon well? How far was the bear from them when they fired? What caliber was the gun?
As for using the bear spray what was the bear doing when the bear spray was used? Was it just close doing nothing else dangerous to humans? Was it bluff charging? What were the weather conditions?
I'm not against using bear spray. If there are at least two people present, one or more persons can use bear spray and the other(s) can be holding a gun at the ready. However, if a bear is charging me and I can't get to safety I'm going to use a gun over bear spray. In a few seconds I can fire my entire magazine of 10mm. With the Glock 20 that's 15 plus 1. Add in a shotgun if I have more time to get to my gun and I much prefer my odds over bear spray.
Personally I don't hunt bears. I carry strictly for self defense when fishing. Bears are magnificent creatures and I have no desire to cause one of them pain let alone kill one.
@@jackbrown8052 and strong. I would be curious how much time you have actually spent around grizzlies, and whether you have actually emptied your 10mm accurately within a “few seconds” even when you aren’t under immediate threat. A 10mm round is not a great choice for a grizzly if you had to shoot - it’s why packers carry revolvers (typically 44 or larger).
I do think firearms can be helpful for certain special situations, but are not a substitute for spray and are unlikely to be accurately deployed in a charge even by trained people. Studies say the same. I shoot a lot, with a Glock 20 (among other things), and really doubt you could do this under duress.
But hey, if you don’t mind carrying 2 guns with you, I will be happy to pick them up and pack them out when I find you. I could use another gently used Glock.
@@cnadasi6549 As I mentioned I don't hunt bears. I used to hunt deer but now that I'm retired it's mostly fishing. I carry a gun and usually at least one or more of us will carry a rifle. I have no problems sharing the wilderness with grizzlies or any other bears so long as they don't bother me.
There's an ongoing debate over whether or not a 10mm is as good as a .357/.44 and larger. Check YT. Yes a single bullet from a .44 and probably a .357 is better than a 10mm. However a Glock 20 has a magazine capacity of 15. Most .44 have a capacity of 5 or 6. I can reload a Glock 20 far faster than a .44. That means with a Glock 20 in 25 seconds I can fire at least 30 10mm bullets. Will they all be on target? No. With a .44 I'll be lucky to fire 12 bullets. Will they all be on target. No. Keeping that in mind that's why I prefer using a 10mm with my preferred gun being a Glock 20.
With magazines for the Glock vs moon clips or loose bullets for the .44 it's also easier to carry extra rounds with the Glock.
You're right I've never fired a Glock or other gun while being charged by a Grizzly or other bear or elk or moose or even those killer bunnies some people hunt. Hope I never have to.
@@jackbrown8052 I’m curious why you think you would have a chance to reload? Or even make it through a whole mag? You likely would have a couple of seconds. Maybe watch a bear charge? Their instant speed is impressive and the very small target area would be extremely difficult to hit.
If you were totally cool headed, had warning before the charge, and were a very good shot you may get a round into the head. Assuming a solid bullet, you may penetrate the skull if it doesn’t glance. It’s unlikely you would get follow up shots into the head with any caliber large enough to make a difference. You may get a couple into the body, but of course the bear would kill you before it dies (assuming it’s mortally wounded).
With spray you would put up a cloud the bear would run through. Most bears respond immediately. You would likely have time for a second burst if it doesn’t run away, and then you can clear the area.
In my supported opinion, suggesting people rely on a firearm to defend against bears is very poor advice likely to result in a death. Understand I am a gun owner and a good shot so that isn’t the issue. A gun is not the right tool for this job.
Don't laugh but i carry an air horn, bear spray, AND a firearm... in just black bear country. In Grizzly/Brown bear country i would prefer all 3 PLUS a rifle AND a local guide who is packing as well. Polar bear country? Fuck that shit!
LOL, love it! Whenever I hear about carrying an air horn, I remember Joey dropping his in the middle of the trail when he actually encountered a bear in the Scapegoat Wilderness video: th-cam.com/video/lA2ZjSbLKvA/w-d-xo.html Happy trails!
Both. But the guns are for the crazy humans I may come across.
You know, bear spray incapacitates humans too. At least long enough to kick 'em in the balls and run like hell. 👍 😉
Both. Why not. Bear spray has failed as has ammunition. Your not correct about bullets bouncing off grizzly skulls. Thats a wives tale from the days of soft lead muzzleloaders. Today a good hard cast or copper mono bullet smashes thru from any angle. I carry bear spray and an 454 revolver. I can defend myself with either but with the revolver i can download it and actually hunt small game with light loads. Both are tools and have their uses. BTW grizzlies are no longes considered an endangered species. Theyre now threatened in lower 48 as the offical designation but we all know even that is no longer the reality.
Thanks for your input. I appreciate the extra information. Happy trails!
i would carry an ak -47 . nothing would withstand that . saw them used in afghanistan . very impressive
Hard to argue with that.
I think both. Don't rely on a single defense unless you absolutely have to.
Also my main concern on the trail, either justified or not, is other humans. Im sure bear spray works perfectly fine on humans but they could be armed, which is what worries me.
Remember, the goal is to only carry what is absolutely necessary in order to minimize weight. Although humans can certainly be scary, the question to ask is what is the likelihood of an encounter where bear spray wouldn't be enough protection?
@@ShastaBubba It's a low chance but I'm willing to carry an extra pound just in case. The same reason I bring a medical kit and almost never open it unless i keep mosquito wipes in there.
I tend to agree with you that if you're only going to carry one tool, bear spray is the better choice, based on the data. I suspect we would be a lot further apart in our perspectives about what you refer to as "common sense gun laws".
Fair enough. Thanks for your input!
Fish and game statistics with a firearm are political nonsense. In most cases with a firearm the intent is not to shoot the bear at all. But, to just fire a shot to scare the Bear off. These incidence are usually never reported.
Not to be argumentative, but I'm having a hard time picturing a scenario where I would want to fire a warning shot versus just shouting, "hey bear." If a bear is acting normally, they would scram (or in GNP, ignore me); if they are aggressive/charging, gonna want to spray them, no time for a warning shot. Just sayin'. Alaska might be a different question though, don't know about there.
@@ShastaBubba Bears don't always act the same or the way you think they should. . Also, there can be more than one bear.. One bear might be approaching aggressively from the front when you realize there is a bear blocking your retreat from behind . Firing a shot can both stop the approaching bear and clear the area of any others. You only get one spray in the wind with bear spray.
@@ShastaBubba I disagree. As any hunter knows, with 99% of wild game, a loud explosion usually sends them to the hills unless it's really going nuts. I pray nobody has to face one of these situations
@@fraudsarentfriends4717Bears don’t hunt in packs. 🤦♂️
If you have to ask that question, your a sheep.
Sheep are people who DON'T ask questions.
I keep seeing all these ignorant trigger happy bozzos that never saw a bear 'recommending' guns and laughing at bear spray. They completely miss the point of the spray and rely on a misguided idea that they will shoot at a charging bear as if they are at the shooting range.
My theory is that most folks sit in their comfy chair at home and have 'thought experiments' regarding how they would handly a bear encounter, inevitably overestimating their abilities and emerging as the hero. It's a seductive activity, from which I am certainly not immune, but of course, detached from reality. ;-)