I still feel like climbing rubber is unnecessarily subjective. Coming from other hobbies like auto racing and cycling, there are some snake-oily type technologies, but rubber in climbing is something that should have real, available numbers associated with the product. ASTM has standards for wear resistance, friction, and elasticity. These are all the questions that climbers want answered, but no single manufacturer has actually provided the public with those numbers. I imagine if they did exist, we would be able to actively determine what values we want and it would cause the manufacturers to spend more than they are willing on R&D. It would take new manufacturing techniques when the ones that they have now have worked for 30+ years with slight tweaks. As a consumer, rubber is a really frustrating problem. There is a huge scarcity problem when it comes to re-soling your own shoes. There is an information problem with a lack of hard data. There is a transparency problem where the manufacturers don't necessarily feel the need to improve for probably tens and hundreds of reasons. The same info from forum posts in 2004 is just as good info, but the links to sites to buy material dont work anymore. Thats just plain ridiculous.
Totally agree with you. I work in a scientific field and got into climbing a few years back. When I went looking for my first resole I really bit into this question and tried to find as much data as possible on shoe rubber. Unfortunately, little of it is interpretable to the layman as the base specs of a rubber don't always align with performance. This is probably due to other additives/processes that aren't well measured by Shore Hardness or DIN Abrasion, but... that's beyond me. Regardless, I wound up using the Google Waybackmachine to survey a few of Vibram's old resoling catalogues and found a lot of the numbers I was looking for, at least in regards to Shore Hardness relative to other brands. XSGrip Shore Hardness... ~70 XSGrip2 Shore Hardness... ~74 XS Edge Shore Hardness... ~78 Now, if we compare these to the broadly advertised characteristics of UnParallel's rubber (here: www.unparallelsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/Unparallel-Rubber-Physical-Properties.pdf), we begin to get a sense of how to compare these compounds. UP also reports DIN Abrasion and Resilience, which are much much harder to find on the big brands. This is a bold move by UP, and I think speaks a lot to their confidence in their product. Although curiously, SoILL uses the same rubber manufacturer and people have almost universally terrible things to say about their product. I even tried to ask SoILL about their rubber to see if it might be better than people say... and the poor customer service lady had no idea. She had not idea if they even had an edging rubber, despite a few resolers reporting SoILL Soft and SoILL Hard.
@@thesii213 I work in modeling, so I understand that there are many more factors at play than those 3 that I mentioned, but it does go a long way. I havent heard of UP rubber, but I have some spare shoes, so I might try grabbing a resole kit and trying it out. I love that link that you added. That makes a world of difference for determining what I would want as a consumer.
@@mrs_radrod UP is the "new 5.10" in that they're the US remnant of the old 5.10 when Adidas moved manufacturing out of the US. Supposedly they're in the old 5.10 factory and making shoes largely derived from old 5.10 lasts as... they were the original designers. It's complex, but many/most of 5.10's athletes have shifted their way recently. I think the way they present their rubbers' true specs should be the gold standard in the industry. Their RH is supposedly the old C4 formula, or at least, a slightly tweaked one. I could also probably dig around and find that old Vibram catalogue for you. I also have estimated Shore Hardness for some of the other major rubbers available, although some of these are resoler estimates and not something from a spec sheet.
@@mikaelpetersson9113 Shore Hardness is likely the best measure of stiffness. However, Evolv makes a softer rubber that they purport edges like a much harder one due to modifying a few other variables with rubber additives. These are likely the DIN Abrasion and Resilience, but these aren't as easy to interpret for the average person.
This seems less like an explanation and more of a Vibram commercial. Especially the beginning; just a bunch of vague praise. Plus no other brands of rubber compounds are shown at all. TLDR; XSEdge is stiffer, more durable, and more supportive, XSGrip2 is softer, stickier, and more sensitive, XSGrip is mid-range, thicker outsoles are more rigid than thinner ones, as are full-length outsoles to split outsoles.
After talking to a shoemaker who resoles Vibram he said that the Edge rubber is actually less durable than the Grip. He has come to that conclusion after resoling many many shoes and inspecting them.
Really misleading title. This should’ve been “Why understanding Vibram climbing rubber, is so important.” I’ve had my hit and misses with Vibram, but there’s other rubber on the market worth looking into.
So what is the actual difference between xs grip and xs grip 2? Saying one of them is higher performance is very vague. Is it harder, softer, more stretch...
I've found the grip 2 to be softer and stickier than the grip. IMO grip is a middle ground between xs edge and xs grip 2. This is based purely on my experience. Perhaps someone has a more scientific response in regards to the actual rubber compounds.
@@adriensanz2354 Actually, I peeked at Vibram's old resoling catalogues on the WayBackMachine and Grip is actually softer than Grip2. Grip's durometer is roughly 70, while Grip2's is roughly 74. Edge is about 78. Of course, there are a few other additives besides simple hardness that determines durability, but hardness is generally the best measure.
Grip: Softer material, all around climbing Grip 2: Mostly same as Grip but licensed to mostly La Sportiva and Scarpa shoes. "Supposedly" works at wider temperature range, not much difference if you're indoors Edge: Harder material, edging
What a stupid episode/ad, the only few explanations are lost in a bunch of "oh it's so perfect". Explain more in depth the real differences, pros and cons of rubbers next time please.
Just a quick correction, Scarpa's Instinct VS has 3.5 mm of XS edge rubber on the forefoot, and it also features grip 2 rubber on the heel. Sick video tho, even though I climb in Evolv shoes (Trax FTW!)
This doesn’t answer the question of the difference between XS grip and XS grip2. Which is softer/more sensitive and how do they stack up against 5:10 rubber? I recently had a pair of Anasazi pro’s resoled with XS grip 2, I would say 5:10 C4 definitely has more friction...but the XS grip 2 might be marginally better on edges, how does XS grip fit in? Ideally I’d like a rubber compound between 5:10 HF and C4, is that XS grip?
Per Vibram's old resole catalogues, XS Grip's Shore Hardness is ~70 and XS Grip2's is ~74. So Grip1 should be slightly softer and with better friction, at least from a pure data perspective.
At the end, as I climber, this is very confuse, I can not understand what is trying Vibraum.....for sure different shoes can achive different things, but you always need the best grip
Yes and no, if your more into climbing things get more detailed. I’m wachting this to really learn the difference to choose best for my climbing. These days you can customize much easier then 15 years back. All climbing movies are some sort of advert to go climbing and buy this stuff.. i think..
I understand this is a sponsored video, but you really didn't tell us much about the actual rubber, besides the Xs Edge being a harder rubber, you more or less implied that the Grip 2 was objectively better than its predessor, which just isn't true
Actually, the rubber doesn't make a difference in my decision. I choose the shoe (from the certain performance area I'm looking for) which fits me best. Simple as that..
There's so much shit here, and of course it's attached to an online shop. Any brand can partner with vibram to make shoes, climbing or not. That offers no guarantee on the quality of the shoe. "XS Grip has won championships" then I guess that's the best?! And demonstrated on hardest routes!? Then why produce anything else? Oh right money. This video offers up no form of verifiable info except we sell these shoes with this rubber, you NEED to have these. Not to mention the probably dozen of other brands that use different rubber that would perform just as well if the companies had the money to buy the athletes. Such a disingenuous video
Actually it does help out a beginner with bad footwork psychologically. My first pair of shoes were La Sportiva Tarantula with FriXion RS rubber. When I got stuck at 5.10a level I thought a more intermediate shoe might help with my climbing, so I got a pair of Scarpa Vapor V with XS Edge rubber. I immediately noticed that the Vapor stuck to the wall much better, so I dared to smear more often and felt more confident with certain moves. Now that my footwork has improved I can do the same moves with the Tarantula, but back then it was a big help in advancing my climbing.
I still feel like climbing rubber is unnecessarily subjective. Coming from other hobbies like auto racing and cycling, there are some snake-oily type technologies, but rubber in climbing is something that should have real, available numbers associated with the product.
ASTM has standards for wear resistance, friction, and elasticity. These are all the questions that climbers want answered, but no single manufacturer has actually provided the public with those numbers. I imagine if they did exist, we would be able to actively determine what values we want and it would cause the manufacturers to spend more than they are willing on R&D. It would take new manufacturing techniques when the ones that they have now have worked for 30+ years with slight tweaks.
As a consumer, rubber is a really frustrating problem. There is a huge scarcity problem when it comes to re-soling your own shoes. There is an information problem with a lack of hard data. There is a transparency problem where the manufacturers don't necessarily feel the need to improve for probably tens and hundreds of reasons. The same info from forum posts in 2004 is just as good info, but the links to sites to buy material dont work anymore. Thats just plain ridiculous.
Totally agree with you. I work in a scientific field and got into climbing a few years back. When I went looking for my first resole I really bit into this question and tried to find as much data as possible on shoe rubber. Unfortunately, little of it is interpretable to the layman as the base specs of a rubber don't always align with performance. This is probably due to other additives/processes that aren't well measured by Shore Hardness or DIN Abrasion, but... that's beyond me. Regardless, I wound up using the Google Waybackmachine to survey a few of Vibram's old resoling catalogues and found a lot of the numbers I was looking for, at least in regards to Shore Hardness relative to other brands.
XSGrip Shore Hardness... ~70
XSGrip2 Shore Hardness... ~74
XS Edge Shore Hardness... ~78
Now, if we compare these to the broadly advertised characteristics of UnParallel's rubber (here: www.unparallelsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/Unparallel-Rubber-Physical-Properties.pdf), we begin to get a sense of how to compare these compounds. UP also reports DIN Abrasion and Resilience, which are much much harder to find on the big brands. This is a bold move by UP, and I think speaks a lot to their confidence in their product. Although curiously, SoILL uses the same rubber manufacturer and people have almost universally terrible things to say about their product. I even tried to ask SoILL about their rubber to see if it might be better than people say... and the poor customer service lady had no idea. She had not idea if they even had an edging rubber, despite a few resolers reporting SoILL Soft and SoILL Hard.
@@thesii213 I work in modeling, so I understand that there are many more factors at play than those 3 that I mentioned, but it does go a long way. I havent heard of UP rubber, but I have some spare shoes, so I might try grabbing a resole kit and trying it out. I love that link that you added. That makes a world of difference for determining what I would want as a consumer.
@@mrs_radrod UP is the "new 5.10" in that they're the US remnant of the old 5.10 when Adidas moved manufacturing out of the US. Supposedly they're in the old 5.10 factory and making shoes largely derived from old 5.10 lasts as... they were the original designers. It's complex, but many/most of 5.10's athletes have shifted their way recently. I think the way they present their rubbers' true specs should be the gold standard in the industry. Their RH is supposedly the old C4 formula, or at least, a slightly tweaked one.
I could also probably dig around and find that old Vibram catalogue for you. I also have estimated Shore Hardness for some of the other major rubbers available, although some of these are resoler estimates and not something from a spec sheet.
Add stiffness as a fourth parameter and it would be quite perfect as a Consumer Climbing Shoe Rubber Guide.
@@mikaelpetersson9113 Shore Hardness is likely the best measure of stiffness. However, Evolv makes a softer rubber that they purport edges like a much harder one due to modifying a few other variables with rubber additives. These are likely the DIN Abrasion and Resilience, but these aren't as easy to interpret for the average person.
This seems less like an explanation and more of a Vibram commercial. Especially the beginning; just a bunch of vague praise. Plus no other brands of rubber compounds are shown at all.
TLDR; XSEdge is stiffer, more durable, and more supportive, XSGrip2 is softer, stickier, and more sensitive, XSGrip is mid-range, thicker outsoles are more rigid than thinner ones, as are full-length outsoles to split outsoles.
After talking to a shoemaker who resoles Vibram he said that the Edge rubber is actually less durable than the Grip. He has come to that conclusion after resoling many many shoes and inspecting them.
I like his explanations anyways and will be useful for my next climbing shoes.
Really misleading title. This should’ve been “Why understanding Vibram climbing rubber, is so important.” I’ve had my hit and misses with Vibram, but there’s other rubber on the market worth looking into.
I always look forward to when my Vibram wears off so I can resole with Stealth C4.
Do you like stealth as much as Trax SaS?
@@MPHshoots, I've never tried Trax SAS. I couldn't make a comparison.
@@FlatOutFE oh lol it’s good. I’m actually at the gym RN lol
@@MPHshoots, I just got home from the gym. I used STEALTH C4 the whole time. 😁
Stealth C4 is very good
anyone else eagerly awaiting durex's entry into the climbing rubber market?
I like my shoes ribbed and unlubed
As the wise man once said, nope.
So what is the actual difference between xs grip and xs grip 2? Saying one of them is higher performance is very vague. Is it harder, softer, more stretch...
grip2 is softer, provides more grip and wear faster. grip is an intermediate between edge and grip2.
I've found the grip 2 to be softer and stickier than the grip. IMO grip is a middle ground between xs edge and xs grip 2. This is based purely on my experience. Perhaps someone has a more scientific response in regards to the actual rubber compounds.
@@adriensanz2354 Actually, I peeked at Vibram's old resoling catalogues on the WayBackMachine and Grip is actually softer than Grip2. Grip's durometer is roughly 70, while Grip2's is roughly 74. Edge is about 78. Of course, there are a few other additives besides simple hardness that determines durability, but hardness is generally the best measure.
Some resolers offer grip in up to 5mm, which is insane and means your shoes last for ages, I've only ever seen grip 2 at up to 3.5mm.
Yeah, before this video I didn't know that Grip and Grip 2 both were on the market at the same time, I thought that Grip 2 had taken over from Grip.
I'd really like a rundown of more rubbers. Specifically a comparison between the S72 Scarpa rubber with the Grip2.
Wow they all work very well thanks for the ad
Grip: Softer material, all around climbing
Grip 2: Mostly same as Grip but licensed to mostly La Sportiva and Scarpa shoes. "Supposedly" works at wider temperature range, not much difference if you're indoors
Edge: Harder material, edging
What a stupid episode/ad, the only few explanations are lost in a bunch of "oh it's so perfect". Explain more in depth the real differences, pros and cons of rubbers next time please.
They can't unfortunately. This is paid advertising for selling climbing shoes on their website.
Can you add rubber material to your filter in the shop?
Was there a mixup at 5:29? I would say that the Instinct rather is the one with toe hooking section ...
Just a quick correction, Scarpa's Instinct VS has 3.5 mm of XS edge rubber on the forefoot, and it also features grip 2 rubber on the heel. Sick video tho, even though I climb in Evolv shoes (Trax FTW!)
It says 3mm on the scarpa website.
@@imahuman1996 www.scarpa.com/instinct-vs
en.scarpa.net/product/18496573/instinct-vs-specialized-performance-black
not on any scarpa site I know
@@imahuman1996 It does say 3 mm on the UK site though, so maybe something to ask Scarpa:
www.scarpa.co.uk/climb/instinct-vs/
I've always noticed that my shoes (and rubber) are better at climbing than I am! :-)
Itsa bugger intit?
This doesn’t answer the question of the difference between XS grip and XS grip2. Which is softer/more sensitive and how do they stack up against 5:10 rubber? I recently had a pair of Anasazi pro’s resoled with XS grip 2, I would say 5:10 C4 definitely has more friction...but the XS grip 2 might be marginally better on edges, how does XS grip fit in? Ideally I’d like a rubber compound between 5:10 HF and C4, is that XS grip?
Per Vibram's old resole catalogues, XS Grip's Shore Hardness is ~70 and XS Grip2's is ~74. So Grip1 should be slightly softer and with better friction, at least from a pure data perspective.
Ive been wanting to know this for a while, awesome vid. Thanks guys :-)
What is the name of the song from 0:29-0:41 ? Also love the production quality !
At the end, as I climber, this is very confuse, I can not understand what is trying Vibraum.....for sure different shoes can achive different things, but you always need the best grip
XS edge does not last long if you have anything better than beginner footwork. Back to XS grip 2 for me
great episode. And yes it is so important to understand the shoes and the rubber, great thing to bring up!
I love these kind of tech videos of shoes and rubber.
This is just a huge ad :/
Yes and no, if your more into climbing things get more detailed. I’m wachting this to really learn the difference to choose best for my climbing. These days you can customize much easier then 15 years back. All climbing movies are some sort of advert to go climbing and buy this stuff.. i think..
I understand this is a sponsored video, but you really didn't tell us much about the actual rubber, besides the Xs Edge being a harder rubber, you more or less implied that the Grip 2 was objectively better than its predessor, which just isn't true
This is amazing! Keep posting and going on! You inspire lots to keep going!
Exactly the video I needed! ✨
Can you do a reviews of new 5.10, hiangle, crawe, aleon and dragon?
Thank you for this knowledge!! I have been looking for this information and couldn't find it summarized well!
isn't the instinct vs sole (edge) 4mm, and the vsr (grip2) 3mm?
Panteras has their own rubber (wild rubber) not vibram. it is a good stiff rubber close to xsedge
Does anyone know what those yellow and red La Sportivas are?
Can you discuss about Stealth
Great Video. Like you said, construction an midsole makes a big difference! Not just the softness of the rubber.
Thsi is "Why Understanding VIBRAM Climbing Rubber Is SO Important"
I love vibram but there are other compounds that deserve attention.
Song? Its a banger!
Sneaky glimpse of Bloc Climbing. That is some incredibly old footage though.
Actually, the rubber doesn't make a difference in my decision. I choose the shoe (from the certain performance area I'm looking for) which fits me best. Simple as that..
There's so much shit here, and of course it's attached to an online shop. Any brand can partner with vibram to make shoes, climbing or not. That offers no guarantee on the quality of the shoe. "XS Grip has won championships" then I guess that's the best?! And demonstrated on hardest routes!? Then why produce anything else? Oh right money. This video offers up no form of verifiable info except we sell these shoes with this rubber, you NEED to have these. Not to mention the probably dozen of other brands that use different rubber that would perform just as well if the companies had the money to buy the athletes. Such a disingenuous video
Overhanging and higher grade sports and bouldering, I haven't found better shoe than La Sportiva with XS 2, they stick like shit to a blanket
And for dry rubbing you go for...
Vibram make Vibram five fingers, toe shoes
Now I'm more confused then before I watch this video 😂
P. S. Vibram is overated
Climbing rubber probably doesn’t matter until you’re climbing v12’s
Actually it does help out a beginner with bad footwork psychologically. My first pair of shoes were La Sportiva Tarantula with FriXion RS rubber. When I got stuck at 5.10a level I thought a more intermediate shoe might help with my climbing, so I got a pair of Scarpa Vapor V with XS Edge rubber. I immediately noticed that the Vapor stuck to the wall much better, so I dared to smear more often and felt more confident with certain moves. Now that my footwork has improved I can do the same moves with the Tarantula, but back then it was a big help in advancing my climbing.
Helpful video, but sounds like reading marketing copy.
also xs grip 2 sucks on rock, great for plastic thou, and also better durability on plastic than xs grip...
Stealth c4 ?
Is no rubber from Vibram. So it's not in a Video about Vibram rubber 😁
This video is an advertisment for Vibram, not a real piece about climbing rubber.
@@joaoandrebernardino true. he did not point out a single downside of the different rubbertypes
stealth = best rubber in the fcking world (pers op.)
@@gabrielhavemann9732 chill, it's just rubber 😅 but nice that you like your five ten shoes so much 😉
Just another technical video of no information at alll
Wow, those closeup shots were like porn!
And the shots from the shoes as well
Keep up the goo pd work epic tv and sponsorships being available?