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Jay while I totally agree with your assessment - that something was clearly very wrong with the mileage - I disagree that it can be so easily dismissed by more-or-less "oh well, that's what often happens on these older Ferraris - the odometer packs up and, ya know, that happens". Even if it is true (and while I don't doubt you, neither have I ever heard that anywhere else and that includes my 20 years in the trade) I simply completely disagree that you could treat such an anomaly in that rather minimising manner you suggested - quite simply, the entire episode regarding the wavy mileage REEKS. This is WAY more than a faulty dashboard/odo. The car stinks to high heaven of unimaginable dodginess and your assertion that "it couldn't be someone trying to clock it, cos it's SO hamfisted" is just wrong. Criminals, quite simply, are not known for their brains. Believe me. Sometimes when things LOOK really, REALLY dumb - that's exactly what they are. Don't be led (just because YOU have a brain) into believing that no one is capable of being that crass, obvious and cack handed. Perhaps because we're taught that when something looks too good to be true it probably isn't - conversely we don't believe something can be as bad as it looks? Don't know, couldn't say. But what I am saying is rather than - as you suggested - virtually nothing's really wrong with the car, I'd sooner say virtually everything. The fact the thing came with such an uneven MOT history backs my version. That car has at the very VERY best, been seriously unloved. FAR more likely, in my not so humble opinion, is that it has been through untold horrors, not least of which the fact the litany of MOT failure items smacked of accident damage, not least the airbag cover being loose. Yes, you say "that happens on Ferraris" - but surely could it not just as easily (I would contend far more likely) be the fact the airbag's been replaced? And let's look at it - as a skittish, 400hp car ages and starts becoming affordable for other subsequent owners, it reaches those who, shall we say, want more out of it than they're prepared to put in to it. But the car's only had two owners you said. I know Car Vertical's your sponsor and by the way well done for at least specifying they're not perfect and why - but what you said's just the half of it. On the one hand, you've got the first owner - very likely to have cherished it and indeed for the first three years everything is hunky dory. The mileage increases by a very smooth and even 5000 miles a year which by the way would fit neatly within a maximum 5000 annual mileage insurance policy stipulation as well as indicating, as you also suggested, second/weekend car status. Although we are TOLD there have only ever been two owners, I have known several people, partly because they're dodgy but at least as much because they didn't want an extra owner on the logbook, didn't notify the DVLA of the change of keeper. With the "perfect" first three years, it just seems so out of character for that evidently fastidious first owner - around that 2008-2011 period in question - to have the documentation go to absolute fuckery. The car's CLEARLY been in the control of someone else. Apart from anything else, even had that pristine first owner had some really bad luck and jump started it/fried the dashboard/crashed it - he'd have DOCUMENTED it. There would be an extremely clear note in the service book - something which is referred to as "being present" but is otherwise given very little attention except you tell us how "that doesn't really matter - that's the sort of thing you can always ask". Sorry Jay but that's bullshit. You really think an auction house that purports to be "posh" - with its 14% fees and Goodwood location - is gonna have missed the chance to present the full Ferrari flummery? If that bastard car had got ANY history to note, it would be in the blurb. I want to say "and you know it" but I genuinely think you're such a nice guy you just don't want to see it. No Jay, this car, not that we're told, has very little service history after at best year 4 when the first owner seems no longer to have been the keeper. Unlike you, I don't really care about the slightly manky exhaust back box - let's face it, Ferraris weren't and aren't that great quality - they're hardly going to have put some hand fabricated but if stainless exhaust on it. The thing doesnt look great cos it's 20 years old. Of greater concern to me is the so called "spiders web" on the chassis plate. Looked far more like a crack to me but I won't say more as I was watching on my mobile and the screen just isn't big enough or of resolution sufficiently fine to tell - but "spiders web" ? No. Finally - and most obvious of all - is the refusal by the auctioneer to engage with you. Anyone reputatable would have been all over that like a cheap suit. Instead you got a cursory email about the fact the mileage had gone up and down (the first time) but nothing but the cold shoulder when you pressed them about all the subsequent MOTs and the peculiarity of the reset back to 12000 miles. Quite simply, you were being flat out ignored by a shameless charlatan and shyster. £40k? I wouldn't have paid half that for it. I wouldn't have touched it at all. Sometimes Jay, people are just thieving, robbing, crooked bastards and they should be called out as that.
@@JayEmmOnCars thank you, I though particularly after watching a pistonheads noble m12 review it was some sort of deliberately cool kinda thing. As for the latter, Probably because I'm a cranky old bugger . Thank you again and I've told my friends to subscribe.
Ferrari are still rare, the service manual should show every service date and odometer mileage and of cause the bills. Here people take care and handover these doccuments to make sure its history can be told fully. Documents missing - prices will drop big time. And: if the cars are known for broken odometer then where did you get all these used odometers frrom ? The ferrarrir guys should also be able to read the internal control units that also store the odometer.
You’re being very generous to the seller here. I feel it’s done 60k miles. Most auction houses simply state that the mileage can’t be guaranteed. I wouldn’t entertain this one.
I used to disconnect the Speedo on the fords and vws when some friends from the stables hired them after noting to rpm speed at 30 50 and 70 , so when the car was returned 6 months later the mileage surcharge , upto 5grand , couldn't be claimed off the client. Jockeys drive 50 thousand miles a year and back in the 80's the wages were rubbish.
Never NEVER regret walking away. The “one that got away” is the finest car ever. The one you didn’t bring home only exists in your imagination. The one you missed never fails to start on a cold morning. The electric panel never fails, it never left you stranded in a sketchy area, the windshield never leaked, so the upholstery was never ruined. It never caused you to pull the engine to replace a main bearing, only to have it fail a second time one day later. (This happened to me.) Never NEVER cry about the car you didn’t get.
I reckon its been a hire car, then kept within the same company and used as a trackday experience car, then stored, sold and clocked. I suspect the 55,000 mileage should have been 22,000 but the 56,000 is probably legit.
@@howarddavies136 exactly what I thought, one of those track experience days. That got hammered and then passed on when it had mot issues explaining why it had a test before the year was up. Would explain the condition not tallying to a 30k mile car especially that burnt out exhaust
You’re absolutely spot on, Jay. These auction houses are often used to offload real rubbish and all auction houses might as well say in their T’s & C’s, ‘Para 1, Subsection ii, Nuffin To Do With Me, Pal.’
@@user-ps3qk3xl2d Johnny on late brake show did one a while ago where the house graded each car. A1 showroom to D4 dog for example. For the fees they charge I think they should be putting some responsibility to justify their fees
@ thx. Just curious about some of the remarkable prices that one occasionally sees on E39 M5s, the odd manual 911 etc. No such thing as a free lunch I suppose.
@benzinapaul7416 not always true, mats lambo murci and f430 both manual both ex track cars. I've also driven a manual gallardo on a experience track day 👍
My brother has had Scalexlectric for years. He has a full track set up in his house, complete with stands, trees, little scale men waving flags etc. Some of his cars date back to the 70s (when he bought them). I have very fond memories of racing the cars around a four lane circuit!
You might have noticed the exhaust, first thing that stood out to me like the proverbial was the drivers seat. No way that worn out seat is from a 20,000 mile vehicle. Looking at it I would say easily three or four times that. Unless Ferrari use particularly fragile leather. Or more accurately this particular Ferrari. Because others I have seen with genuine low mileage don’t have seats that look like that.
@@neiltitmus9744ah ha. Sure. Or if someone is telling porkies and selling a car with a widely incorrect odometer. Which is more often the case I would suggest. It is one easy test of mileage. Look at the drivers seat condition and the floor mats and carpet on the drivers side, ok mats can be changed but it is a quick and very accurate guage.
Very interesting. Having bought two Rolls-Royce’s and a Bentley from three different UK auction houses, including Historics, over the past two years your video mirrors my personal experience. They are pretty selective with disclosure of the actualite of a car’s history, often leaving out salient facts or documents about the history of a car until after you have finalised the purchase. It is also challenging if not impossible to get a pre purchase inspection given the auction process, as cars are often only available to view a day or two prior to auction. While we may have been taught to be wary of second hand car dealers at least more of the faults from a car being retailed by a garage can be discovered through questions, inspection and research than when one is buying at an auction. Caveat emptor indeed!
Feels like a rental to me, been on a track, so no need for mot or serious maintenance, occasionally moted to try and sell, but without cleaning it up enough to actually entice a real buyer. Probably now no good to anyone other than Matt Armstrong 😂
The sticker on the windscreen is an interesting detail; I suspect that's either been from a racing school or from an auto salvage business. The sudden list of issues like headlamp aim at the MOT makes me think it was either a racing school car or it's had an unrecorded crash (or both!)
What I'd also like you to do is a video on is "Managed Sales" and "Brokers" when it comes to selling cars. These are both terms used for dealers to hide behind when a selling a car that allows them to circumvent their legal responsibilites as a dealer. This is rife in the world of on line car auctions and it seems the higher the value of the vehicle or the more exotic it is, the more likely it is to be utilised. It is also very damaging for the genuine specialist dealers out there that are straight business. After years in business in the UK (not car sales) it never fails to astonish me that we still operate on a system based on honesty and trust first and foremost, that creates an enviroment for spivs and "Arthur Daleys" in which to operate. The used car business in this country is a shambles. It's time it really was regulated properly.
You have been very generous I very been in the trade for nearly 40 years and that car has done more like 60 -70k Too many red flags inc the back box!! Keep up the good work!
I wonder if this 360 Spider was used as a track day event car, would potentially explain the massive mileage increase over such a short period. Just a thought........
I was thinking the odo had actually rolled over and is displaying short mileage because it's incapable of displaying the 6-figures required...being a Ferrari and all.😆
Agree with you re Auction houses and buyers fees. That Bangers & Cash mob charge the same fees to both the seller & buyer, plus VAT on top of that. So they are on a win win regardless.
I was under the understanding that Auctions were a place for people to dump problem cars, you go there and pay under the market and take a gamble on being able to fix it! Plus if you're planning to pay someone else to fix it you'll be out of pocket!
these high heritage blaa blaa blaa places are supposed to be places to buy like sort of collectibles as investments. in the up economy anyway. and the reason they were 'investments' were driven up by the loop of the prices in them via the bidding up mechanic, with benchmark prices based on other cars and not the pos. it wouldn't even matter if it's a pos if it just goes back to the same loop. the auction premium you pay though also for them to check it. which they don't.
I put my Continental R through an on-line auction site - it fell short of my reserve so they asked me if I would lower it to get it sold, which I didn't do because after their fees it was a bad loss to me. Anycase 1 year later I put it on eBay and it sold well above my previous auction reserve and the add only cost me £25.00. I have long thought these auction houses are over charging for their service but in fairness they are upfront about their fees. In my case I asked them if they wanted me to reduce my reserve then they should reduce their fees percentage to offset some of the loss, which they weren't prepared to do. As to your Ferrari story it remains the responsibility of the buyer to do their own due diligence
@@richardstamper5630 agree. I’ve bought a few cars at auction. One bargain, one rust bucket and one lucky, ok car. I only risked what I could afford and what I thought was value. The point here being the deception knowing it wasn’t a 20k mile car. That’s not on.
@@CryptoChrisCard From my experience they either charge the seller or they charge the buyer and sometimes they charge both. Depending on the type of auction house fees can very from 6% to 15%. In my case the rate I was being charged was 7% of the selling price, which was around £3,000
James, thanks for the video. As someone who knows nothing about use car sales or auction houses this was an eye opener. You did your friend a huge favour!
When the MOT history of a car is so readily available, I’m completely bewildered that any seller would not be completely transparent about it. Doing otherwise is just a Very Bad Look.
They don't care, the authorities don't care either. Much like anything else in the UK these days. Grenfell, Leasehold, NHS, Immigration, Farmers, tax Dodgers, celebrity chefs abusing staff and crew, long range missiles and WW3. Nobody gives a flying fig about clocked 'super' cars, qel supri!
Back in 2000, in the run up to my 8th Christmas, I found a large mysterious wrapped box in my dad's room, with my name on it. The big day arrived, and I unwrap my presents, and after I get through all of the (smaller) presents I still haven't opened the mysterious box that's still upstairs. I begged and begged, and dad relented, and I got it downstairs and open it up and... spend all afternoon playing Subbuteo! And it was fun but of course the pitch mat was not flat because it was folded in the box and we couldn't be bothered to iron it. And it was great fun, up until bedtime. "Are you going to open your other present?" "What other... oh" There's a box remaining at the back of the demolished pile. It's... huge. Bigger than the mystery Subbuteo box. How the HELL have I not seen it? (I suspect ADHD played a part lol). I open it - there on the box is an Audi A4 and Opel Vectra, lights blazing... Anyway, more begging happens, and my first tabletop oval track was in the dark... Anyway, I'm 32 now, last weekend I was in a 6 hour multiclass digital slot car race. There was a bit of a gap from age 13-23/24ish where I didn't play with slot cars, but I relapsed hard when I found a club in town when I moved to the midlands 😂
Looked at the MOT history on this car before the auction, spoke to Mr Banks on the day of the auction who said the mileage discrepancy was to do with a speedo repair ,based on the condition of the car i would expect it has done nearer the 50k than 20k, definitely need to check these cars out in person.
That car is unsalable. Way to many problems. Thanks James another great rant. Here in Oz if you buy an undisclosed lemon the auction house has to take it back with a full refund.
I don't mind an admin fee, but 12% is ridiculous. If people want a bargain and don't mind swimming with sharks, there must be better places to go, like FB marketplace.
Hi. Great video. A mate was going to bid on that 360, but did an MOT check and obviously didn't bid. Surely, the easiest solution for auction houses is to include the MOT check AND a Car Vertical report..and if anything dodgy, refuse to consign it??
I know a guy that uses his F355 as a daily in the UK. He easily puts 35,000 miles on it a year but it always has a service at the right time, genuine parts etc. Its never let him down. They can actually handle big miles 👍
EXCELLENT video. Takes balls to call them out publicly and it’s warranted for sure. I just bought a car at auction and there were a few porkies! Not a deal breaker but shows that auctions can be dodgy
My first experience of Scalextric was when my uncle & aunt gave me and my brother a Triumph TR7 set, with banked figure of 8 track for Christmas 1983. I now have a semi-scale version of Snetterton (2009 layout before the circuit was changed). It wasn't Scalextric though that got me into cars. It was a gold and red Corgi Junipr Porsche 718 that I still have. That and being taken to a Lotus factory open day in 1978 after Team Lotus won their last F1 World Championshi, when I was 5 years old.
Bought 2 cars from Manor Park Classics, both pups, they hid obvious damage or wear, then pontificated about "I should have come and seen them". Basically if you are bidding blind, bid half, won't touch them again and certainly won't bid seriously without seeing in the flesh.
@@pistonburner6448 depends what you're buying, how it's represented and what you're paying. I bought an an E39 535i and an E66 760Li unseen off eBay for a few hundred and a few grand respectively and was not disappointed.
@stevengore578 trust no one and buyer beware. I put guarantees on the classic Toyota's I sell, full money back. only had to do this twice, both because young UN's did not understand classics require maintenance and 30 year old cars may have things that wear out with use.
You're better off buying private instead of paying 14%, the addational risk is well worth it, espeically if you know how to inspect a car and have access to a ramp etc.
I completely agree with your logical thoughts on the matter, but you forget that honesty and maximum profits don’t necessarily go hand in hand! I would also propose this was a track day/ super car experience type car. They are usually neglected, ran into high mileage with questionable histories and then shipped off to auction when they’ve served purpose.
TLDF. Owned several. Spoken to absolute experts on these cars. 360 / 430 are clocked for fun. Why do people think SO many 20yo cars have barely 20,000 on the clock... Happens with R8s let alone older Ferraris. Use the airbag counter and the TCU (gearbox ECU - if it's the original one) to verify the mileage. Bottom line with these cars: be VERY careful. Ask EVERY question beforehand, get it inspected by SPECIALISTS that work on these cars every day (there are a few nationwide, but not many - yet one more annoying aspect of ownership) and never pay too much for any of them. The market is sliding on these cars (as it should do - they are a twot to keep on the road and an even bigger twot to sell). They are fun, but BUYER BEWARE.
What bugs me so much is there is no consequences in clocking the car. It should be an automatic fine of say 1000 quid if the mileage is suddenly lower on a checkup. Then this would stop and we wouldn’t have to waste time researching this on every car and going to see cars that turn out to be junk. It just sucks when you have driven to a dealer and realise there is no way the tires and brakes are completely worn out after supposedly running just 1000 miles since they were put on two years ago.
Agree with your comments about auctions and viewers about a trackday car.What was not pointed out was that it was obviously crashed then sold to the new owner. You can can tell this by the Items It failed the next MOT where the mileage dropped
The ride height looks very very weird to me. The rear is a bit cocked upwards and generally high. Almost like its had everything out and new shocks have been put in due to relentless track action. Its probably been absolutely ragged to death and had reset after reset.
I bought a car from Historics a number of years ago and then it turned out the mileage was clocked and the car had potentially been in an accident… it was very cheap so luckily they took the car back and gave me my money back. Lesson learned, avoid auctions
What is their reputation as an auction house? They're making a heck of a commission from the buyer and seller like JM said some simple due diligence wouldn't be that expensive.
@@bmstyleeI am not 100% sure tbh, they have clearly tried to go more up market recently. They’ve ditched the at brooklands part of their name which seems a bit shameful as I feel they used the Brooklands names legacy to get started. They’ve also brought in an Ex 5th gear host. I think they are trying to compete more with Iconic sitting in that tier below bonhams etc. I’ve met a few people who have said they would never ever buy from Historics but I don’t know what that is based on. I found them to be quite difficult to deal with. I imagine a lot of the cars that end up with them are with them because they are pups which people will struggle to sell on the used market.
James. Many thanks for this video. I believe you care about the people on your channel and it is much appreciated. Car auction are not a easy place to navigate! Worth taking a specialist with you when you look at a particular make and model there. This may help unless the car buyer is a expert themselves.
I have never met a car dealer or auction house I would trust. Dealer warranties aren't worth the paper they're written on and all auction houses want is your hard earned money. "You bought it now pi55 off" is their main term and condition.
@@danielshinerock1526 I always buy from private sellers. I make sure the car is well looked after and regularly serviced otherwise I walk away. It takes me a while to find the right one but they usually turn up.
I wouldn’t trust anything a used car salesman tells me. The last car I bought, the salesman told me he was also a qualified commercial pilot. As an experienced cabin crew with many hours spent in the flight deck talking with real commercial pilots, all of which he didn’t know, I engaged him in a conversation about aviation, and right from the start, when talking about some basic aviation related technical things, it was blindingly obvious he was a complete fantasist. So if it’s a used car, I always pay for my mechanic to inspect the car first and if the salesperson objects I just walk away.
In my experience, many of these cars end up at an auction for a reason, normally not a good one! If the car is so wonderful and collectible then it should find a new home via the normal sales or dealer channels without any issue at all fair market value.
Really interesting James. In the many many years I've owned cars, I don't think I have ever bought at auction. I was educated young. I have however, chased a good few auctioneers through the courts and cost them many monies. The big, well established houses like Philips, Bonhams etc., are not a problem, it's the smaller, travelling ones who need to be approached with great caution. The main thing is that I believe you've probably done a lot of people a good service. Well done
If 'you don't think you have ever bought at auction', then why would you 'have chased a good few auctioneers through the courts and cost them many monies'?, if you havn't bought anything from them you would surely have no cause to sue them? 🤔
My policy? Buy from a dealer that has a reputation to defend and has warranty. IF you are going to buy privately, make sure you see the car in the home in which is has lived. People treat their cars the way they treat their homes. Just get chatting. IF the seller "knows nothing" about the car. Walk. There's always more cars.
Wouldn’t even go with that. If they have a reputation. Most of the time they don’t care if the odd 1 in 10 cars is a dog. Most dealers have contracts with main dealers to take all there unwanted part exchange. And all dealers have no idea about the cars history. They use HPI services. Which don’t show all the cars hidden history. Unlike VCheck or Car Vertical. I’ve been in the trade for 30years. Even main dealers I personally know have sold crashed written off cars without doing the correct checks.
I bought a car from historics. They didn’t tell me it had a full engine rebuild nor a leaky sunroof. But fees of 12% plus vat. It’s more to bid online the LBS did one where the house gave a score. B2 etc.
My dad bought a 2016 911 from historics. The day we picked it up the turbos blew up. Historics wanted to hear nothing about it and even offered 1000 pounds to shut him up. He refused and it turns out that the car that was sold as a carrera s was a standard carrera, so they gave all auction fees back to him, and some extra to have the turbos fixed. The car ended up going over to litchfield and having all new everything thrown at it, including kw coil overs and a wavetrac lsd. It now runs 590hp with upgraded gts turbos. But yeah they are far from the most honest auction house
I've visited a few Historics auctions over the years, (a friend works for one of the sites they rotate through over the year, so I get free access to browse the lots through them) I've never purchased a car through them and honestly, if you've got any knowledge of cars in general, you'll be able to sport the deficiencies of most of their wares! Also seems several car keep going round and round and round not selling. But then Collecting Cars also have a ton of shite hiding in plain site on their pages. Saw an Rs4 advertised a while back which said it had been involved in a "minor parking accident" But then went on to list nearly every front suspension component and front subframe as being replaced. Minor??
Yes, bought mine as a low ball gamble sight unseen and actually was fine. But could’ve been a lot worse. Hence I think auction houses should take some responsibility for the massive fees they charge and put a grade to each car
Thanks James for this video. If in doubt leave well alone. If it does pass your check list agenda then walk! Same applies to buying a dodgy property or anything else for that matter!
I’ve never bought at an auction but photos tell all. Omitted photos tell even more. And from a private seller I always look at what’s around the car. If they have a tidy garage with other good things…always a plus.
Great video, great insights. Not to shy to call out the auction house, who really should know better. As the saying goes 'Not all cars at auction are bad, but all bad cars will end up at auction'. This for sure is one.
An outstanding video. I nearly got burned on an Aston DB7 a few years back, offered by a dealer who'd just "washed it" prior to me viewing it. Lets just say that the paintwork was so bad that there was even masking tape left around a window seal and I'd wonder whether getting it wet was a nice way of me not noticing....... Its a difficult enough world to live in without this level of dishonesty....
Well done on this issue. I well recall and old dealer friend many years ago, saying him and others walked out of an auction of antiques in London to protest about "buyers premium" after it was introduced, sadly the auction house kept adding fees and now as far as I know they all do it! Thanks for the heads up on the free history check, just found that in a 2013 MOT my car lost just over 600 miles, on an over 100k mileage, mind you on an almost now 31 years old car cannot understand what that is about. As you say possibly a clerical error by the MOT station! Great output, well done and subbed!
Not sure if you can do this with a Ferrari but Porsche you can enter the ECU and check the actual hours the ignition has been on , you can then get a way of checking the mileage based on average speed (usually 40mph.)
I liked this video, I bought my dream car about 7 years that was a disaster, couldn’t wait to get rid of it but endured 2 years of stress before I did so.
Buyer beware indeed! Very good advice and cheers for highlighting. It's easy to get sucked in by a fancy backdrop or website and forget that, at the end of the day, it's a car auction - no better than any other one.
Are you sure this isnt an experience car . I used to instruct for one and those cars are usually trailed to and from and untaxed or mot'd would explain the use off road and the seat wear of 20 people on a day in an out. Only thing that doesnt fit is the manual box they tend to go auto. Its one to avoid for sure
Great video Jay, auctions can seem like a great way to get a deal on a car but to the uninitiated are a huge gamble. This is public service broadcasting giving people some important warnings about things to watch out for when buying any used car, from an auction or even from a dealer. Auction houses are agents rather than the principals in a sale so they have to be careful to only describe the car as the seller of the car has described it to them. If they start adding their own information / opinion in then they open themselves up to legal action from buyer, seller or both! Having said that, there are clearly some problems with this car that warranted a saleroom notice or an update to the catalogued information at the very least and arguably the withdrawal of the lot from sale. Margins are very thin for auction houses (I know, pity the poor auction houses!) and it costs a lot to stage an auction which is why they charge a commission on the sale. Buyers typically take that into account when bidding - it really shouldn't come as a surprise. Auction sales are really wholesale rather than retail sales and are very different to buying from a dealer. If you don't know what you are looking at then bring someone with you who does, or stay well clear!
Good film James quite agree about auction houses charging a shed load for basically doing bugger all ,bearing in mind that there is no such thing as a cheap fezza well done for throwing some light on this. Good luck getting to 40k.
I'd say the 55K MOT is infact 25K, the 2 and 5 are next to each other on the numeric keypad, so inline with the previous MOT tests. Changed mileage and misaligned headlights, I think I'd be checking the front end for crash damage.
The ones that come after don't match up with a simple one off typo tho. They're all over the place and the dates are too. I'm also heavily inclined to believe the kind of tester who'd fail it for a windscreen sticker would not make that kind of mistake twice on the same day. That for sure is a 60+K car with an unknown, possibly dodgy, history. Still, there's no such thing as a bad product, only a bad price. But this is the kind of car that reeeeeally tests that rule hard
I bought an E39 that looked in good nick other than the pool of oil it was sitting on that basically went for scrap value. Ended up being what I thought, maintenance nobody wanted to pay for (every engine gasket, and every control arm/bushing was original). I wanted something to learn on that I could throw away if it didn't work out, and the rare rear blinds and short ratio diff would be worth half what I got it for. I wouldn't have gone for it if I wasn't happy with the worst case scenario.
I've bought plenty of old snotters at auction, but I knew exactly what I was getting and wasn't disappointed. A few times I got much more than I expected.
Top Notch mate....keep at it.....from an old 348 Spider owner from way back.....from Modena via Italy, France, UK, USA,, to Vancouver, BC via the QE2.....and it did redline in top....in Nevada..
It's one thing if you're going down the local auction house & buying a banger or insurance write off - there you know it's all at your risk. I am very disappointed to hear that it's the same at the top end vlassic auctions
I had ScaleXTrics, but that's not what started me down the petrolhead road. It was going from drab every day early 80s cars to riding in my father's 57 Thunderbird he'd spent years restoring. I think that's when I realized cars could be more than just transportation, they could be driven or ridden in for enjoyment. There's obviously something in this car's history that someone wants to hide, which would put me off instantly not knowing what else they're hiding that isn't as obvious.
Worked in dealerships as technician here in the states for more than a decade and the “processing fee” is mostly there to guarantee that some money will be made on a NEW car sale. The margins on new cars are very slim, and often times are sold at invoice just so they can get more/rotate inventory. Used cars are a different story, and that’s were a dealership really makes their money off of sales. 12% buyers fee sounds absolutely ridiculous to me though.
Courageous video James! Spot on analysis. They need to make a profit, but there should be some protection to buyers too in the case of potentially fraudulent behaviour. Cheers!
Historics T&C are the worst out there. I bought 3 cars at one auction, a Rolls Royce, Bentley and a Mercedes 300SEL 6.3.. None were anything like described. The 6.3 was discribed as matching numbers, it was'nt, it said good runner, It did'nt move and needed complete rebuild, serious engine fault. They pointed me toward the T&C basically it says you cannot go on anything they wrote in there discription or anything told to you by any member of staff written or spoken. "The Lot is not sold as corresponding with any description in the Catalogue or any statement or representation made in writing by, or on behalf of, the Auctioneer." they literally could say one owner, running in miles on a 300,000 mile car and theres nothing you can do about it. Stay very very clear from Historics..
This speaks to me of somebody who bought multiple instrument clusters and just kept replacing them so they can up the value of their vehicle when they sell it. I would put an OBD2 scanner on it and find out what the car computer says it has for mileage, every single vehicle auction house has a scanner
Ah, memories. Several pals and I used to get together and combine our Scalextric sets to make a giant track that filled the living room. I remember when the first models with steerable front wheels came out (I'm that old, sadly). I was first to get one and nobody could beat me. Great days.
I’ve done the Autotrader check on my trade dealers site and it’s come up “ALL CHECKS PASSED” even with the mileage discrepancy. But the actual car initially comes up as a F430 first then a 360 as you go into the full check. This is a permanently marked for life car and has been seriously compromised for any future sale. I’d run a mile away on this one. Never trust anyone when money is involved, I personally view every Ferrari I bid on now especially from auction houses they are the easiest way to get your pocket pinched. Most auctions don’t inspect the vehicles themselves but rely on the seller’s to disclosure any issues and as we know sellers of these types of car rarely tell you everything. Even the best looking car have a history. Keep up the good work.
I was at the Historics auction and spent 30secs looking around this car and thought it looked “well used”. If i was in the market for one of these the 30secs would have been enough for me to walk on by, and that’s without knowing the mileage issues. Apart from mileage the other MOT issue that would raise an eyebrow for me was the sudden need to reset the headlamp aim on both headlamps. Front end repair??? Another thing that didn’t help this car was that they had parked it next to a beautiful red manual 430 which made the condition of the black one even more unattractive.
I was hooked from the start, living in Ireland in 1985, it wasnt great for getting good scaelextrix product, but our local town had a toy shop with uk connections, so we couldn't get everything available in the uk, but about 50%. George Bridges was a lovely man. And my sisters husband was a bug fan too, thank you ❤❤❤❤❤
This seems properly moody this car. Not just the milage discrepancy but the milage increase in-between FAILED mots. This to me says time overseas. Your right I'm not sure why the auction house would want to list this car. Great video as always. Much love.
Excellent video exposing the outrageous auction house system buyers appear to be falling for. What's really disappointing is that Vicki Butler Henderson and TGE associate themselves with it.
Great video, very informative and enlightening. Sharing this highlights to use all the importance of doing thorough checks before getting carried away with the purchase. Really well put together James and looking forward to next one you mentioned. Just response to a previous comment referring to "competing with Harry's garage" you are not competing with anyone you content and delivery is very individual to you. (Both channels very good with their own individual way)
Jay, great video... BRAVISSIMO we need more of these VIDS rather than less.. 'cos there are 'lessons learned' from unscrupulous sellers / dealers et al and people 'flipping cars' 4 a fast buck........
Terrific video, that felt like ten minutes, not half an hour! As someone who also works in the motor trade, sadly, dishonesty is still rife giving those of us who just to empower those like us who love their cars a bad name.
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i am on those- pictures in mag aged 14, golf gt60 rallye, the supercharged really rare one....
never gonna happen, but i will always lust.
Jay while I totally agree with your assessment - that something was clearly very wrong with the mileage - I disagree that it can be so easily dismissed by more-or-less "oh well, that's what often happens on these older Ferraris - the odometer packs up and, ya know, that happens".
Even if it is true (and while I don't doubt you, neither have I ever heard that anywhere else and that includes my 20 years in the trade) I simply completely disagree that you could treat such an anomaly in that rather minimising manner you suggested - quite simply, the entire episode regarding the wavy mileage REEKS. This is WAY more than a faulty dashboard/odo. The car stinks to high heaven of unimaginable dodginess and your assertion that "it couldn't be someone trying to clock it, cos it's SO hamfisted" is just wrong. Criminals, quite simply, are not known for their brains. Believe me. Sometimes when things LOOK really, REALLY dumb - that's exactly what they are. Don't be led (just because YOU have a brain) into believing that no one is capable of being that crass, obvious and cack handed. Perhaps because we're taught that when something looks too good to be true it probably isn't - conversely we don't believe something can be as bad as it looks? Don't know, couldn't say. But what I am saying is rather than - as you suggested - virtually nothing's really wrong with the car, I'd sooner say virtually everything.
The fact the thing came with such an uneven MOT history backs my version. That car has at the very VERY best, been seriously unloved. FAR more likely, in my not so humble opinion, is that it has been through untold horrors, not least of which the fact the litany of MOT failure items smacked of accident damage, not least the airbag cover being loose. Yes, you say "that happens on Ferraris" - but surely could it not just as easily (I would contend far more likely) be the fact the airbag's been replaced? And let's look at it - as a skittish, 400hp car ages and starts becoming affordable for other subsequent owners, it reaches those who, shall we say, want more out of it than they're prepared to put in to it. But the car's only had two owners you said. I know Car Vertical's your sponsor and by the way well done for at least specifying they're not perfect and why - but what you said's just the half of it. On the one hand, you've got the first owner - very likely to have cherished it and indeed for the first three years everything is hunky dory. The mileage increases by a very smooth and even 5000 miles a year which by the way would fit neatly within a maximum 5000 annual mileage insurance policy stipulation as well as indicating, as you also suggested, second/weekend car status. Although we are TOLD there have only ever been two owners, I have known several people, partly because they're dodgy but at least as much because they didn't want an extra owner on the logbook, didn't notify the DVLA of the change of keeper. With the "perfect" first three years, it just seems so out of character for that evidently fastidious first owner - around that 2008-2011 period in question - to have the documentation go to absolute fuckery. The car's CLEARLY been in the control of someone else.
Apart from anything else, even had that pristine first owner had some really bad luck and jump started it/fried the dashboard/crashed it - he'd have DOCUMENTED it. There would be an extremely clear note in the service book - something which is referred to as "being present" but is otherwise given very little attention except you tell us how "that doesn't really matter - that's the sort of thing you can always ask". Sorry Jay but that's bullshit. You really think an auction house that purports to be "posh" - with its 14% fees and Goodwood location - is gonna have missed the chance to present the full Ferrari flummery? If that bastard car had got ANY history to note, it would be in the blurb. I want to say "and you know it" but I genuinely think you're such a nice guy you just don't want to see it. No Jay, this car, not that we're told, has very little service history after at best year 4 when the first owner seems no longer to have been the keeper.
Unlike you, I don't really care about the slightly manky exhaust back box - let's face it, Ferraris weren't and aren't that great quality - they're hardly going to have put some hand fabricated but if stainless exhaust on it. The thing doesnt look great cos it's 20 years old. Of greater concern to me is the so called "spiders web" on the chassis plate. Looked far more like a crack to me but I won't say more as I was watching on my mobile and the screen just isn't big enough or of resolution sufficiently fine to tell - but "spiders web" ? No.
Finally - and most obvious of all - is the refusal by the auctioneer to engage with you. Anyone reputatable would have been all over that like a cheap suit. Instead you got a cursory email about the fact the mileage had gone up and down (the first time) but nothing but the cold shoulder when you pressed them about all the subsequent MOTs and the peculiarity of the reset back to 12000 miles. Quite simply, you were being flat out ignored by a shameless charlatan and shyster. £40k? I wouldn't have paid half that for it. I wouldn't have touched it at all.
Sometimes Jay, people are just thieving, robbing, crooked bastards and they should be called out as that.
@@JayEmmOnCars thank you, I though particularly after watching a pistonheads noble m12 review it was some sort of deliberately cool kinda thing.
As for the latter,
Probably because I'm a cranky old bugger .
Thank you again and I've told my friends to subscribe.
Ferrari are still rare, the service manual should show every service date and odometer mileage and of cause the bills.
Here people take care and handover these doccuments to make sure its history can be told fully. Documents missing - prices will drop big time.
And: if the cars are known for broken odometer then where did you get all these used odometers frrom ?
The ferrarrir guys should also be able to read the internal control units that also store the odometer.
You’re being very generous to the seller here. I feel it’s done 60k miles. Most auction houses simply state that the mileage can’t be guaranteed. I wouldn’t entertain this one.
I used to disconnect the Speedo on the fords and vws when some friends from the stables hired them after noting to rpm speed at 30 50 and 70 , so when the car was returned 6 months later the mileage surcharge , upto 5grand , couldn't be claimed off the client. Jockeys drive 50 thousand miles a year and back in the 80's the wages were rubbish.
Never NEVER regret walking away. The “one that got away” is the finest car ever. The one you didn’t bring home only exists in your imagination. The one you missed never fails to start on a cold morning. The electric panel never fails, it never left you stranded in a sketchy area, the windshield never leaked, so the upholstery was never ruined. It never caused you to pull the engine to replace a main bearing, only to have it fail a second time one day later. (This happened to me.)
Never NEVER cry about the car you didn’t get.
Excellent advice.
I concur.
This is so, so, so true.
I question being in a sketchy area to begin with...🤣
Scalextric. The only EV I’d ever buy 😂
Ever remember Minic Motorway (I think that's what it was called)? Wasn't really for racing, but pretty cool nonetheless
They are only toy sized mate, you can't actually use it and even if you could you could only do laps around the attic and the suspension is shite.
Baaaaaaaased
@@TertiaryScroat 🤣😂😅🤤
😂😂😂
I reckon its been a hire car, then kept within the same company and used as a trackday experience car, then stored, sold and clocked. I suspect the 55,000 mileage should have been 22,000 but the 56,000 is probably legit.
@@howarddavies136 exactly what I thought, one of those track experience days. That got hammered and then passed on when it had mot issues explaining why it had a test before the year was up. Would explain the condition not tallying to a 30k mile car especially that burnt out exhaust
does the milage get reset to zero if it has an engine replacement?
@@larssonk22 no just the dash if it’s a new binnacle or a second hand one that had 12k. Question is, how many dash/ binnacle has it had??
You’re absolutely spot on, Jay.
These auction houses are often used to offload real rubbish and all auction houses might as well say in their T’s & C’s,
‘Para 1, Subsection ii, Nuffin To Do With Me, Pal.’
Caveat emptor.
@@fredmercury1314 Nil illegitimae carborundum est!!
Bonhams also bad? What about the one Chris Harris promotes? Thx
@@user-ps3qk3xl2d Johnny on late brake show did one a while ago where the house graded each car. A1 showroom to D4 dog for example. For the fees they charge I think they should be putting some responsibility to justify their fees
@ thx. Just curious about some of the remarkable prices that one occasionally sees on E39 M5s, the odd manual 911 etc. No such thing as a free lunch I suppose.
It's got 'experience day' use written all over it. I wouldn't be surprised if you found parts from various cars on it!
Exactly my thoughts too
Possibly which could explain the sticker on the screen that failed the MOT
Thats what I was thinking
There will be a picture somewere
@@Taylor40667 thinking again they don't usually use manuals
@benzinapaul7416 not always true, mats lambo murci and f430 both manual both ex track cars. I've also driven a manual gallardo on a experience track day 👍
My brother has had Scalexlectric for years. He has a full track set up in his house, complete with stands, trees, little scale men waving flags etc. Some of his cars date back to the 70s (when he bought them). I have very fond memories of racing the cars around a four lane circuit!
Does your brother have a YT channel that advocates for the UK and other governments stealing peoples yachts or is it just you?
@@Memovox You mean that ugly yacht of a shady russian? He just reported the facts, you're hitting the courier over news you don't like.
@@MemovoxYou find any sympathy for Russian oligarchs losing their yachts, comrade.
You might have noticed the exhaust, first thing that stood out to me like the proverbial was the drivers seat. No way that worn out seat is from a 20,000 mile vehicle. Looking at it I would say easily three or four times that. Unless Ferrari use particularly fragile leather. Or more accurately this particular Ferrari. Because others I have seen with genuine low mileage don’t have seats that look like that.
If someone used the wrong product on it it would wear quickly
@@neiltitmus9744ah ha. Sure. Or if someone is telling porkies and selling a car with a widely incorrect odometer. Which is more often the case I would suggest. It is one easy test of mileage. Look at the drivers seat condition and the floor mats and carpet on the drivers side, ok mats can be changed but it is a quick and very accurate guage.
I heard that the previous owner's tailor likes to make his suits out of sandpaper
Actually I just realized the explanation: the mileage is genuine, but the owner lived in the car. Hence very few miles, but lots of seat use.
@@foxxster3565 can also depend on the size of the driver too
Very interesting. Having bought two Rolls-Royce’s and a Bentley from three different UK auction houses, including Historics, over the past two years your video mirrors my personal experience. They are pretty selective with disclosure of the actualite of a car’s history, often leaving out salient facts or documents about the history of a car until after you have finalised the purchase. It is also challenging if not impossible to get a pre purchase inspection given the auction process, as cars are often only available to view a day or two prior to auction. While we may have been taught to be wary of second hand car dealers at least more of the faults from a car being retailed by a garage can be discovered through questions, inspection and research than when one is buying at an auction. Caveat emptor indeed!
Feels like a rental to me, been on a track, so no need for mot or serious maintenance, occasionally moted to try and sell, but without cleaning it up enough to actually entice a real buyer. Probably now no good to anyone other than Matt Armstrong 😂
He would make a bid all right!
Yes. Why didn’t he speculate this could be the case?
@@Billybob09871 Perhaps they had a second 360 with higher miles that they used to swap out gauges at MOT time?
The sticker on the windscreen is an interesting detail; I suspect that's either been from a racing school or from an auto salvage business. The sudden list of issues like headlamp aim at the MOT makes me think it was either a racing school car or it's had an unrecorded crash (or both!)
I think the sticker was a racing sticker. It was raced or rented. Any red flags then pass. Its just not worth it.
What I'd also like you to do is a video on is "Managed Sales" and "Brokers" when it comes to selling cars. These are both terms used for dealers to hide behind when a selling a car that allows them to circumvent their legal responsibilites as a dealer.
This is rife in the world of on line car auctions and it seems the higher the value of the vehicle or the more exotic it is, the more likely it is to be utilised. It is also very damaging for the genuine specialist dealers out there that are straight business.
After years in business in the UK (not car sales) it never fails to astonish me that we still operate on a system based on honesty and trust first and foremost, that creates an enviroment for spivs and "Arthur Daleys" in which to operate. The used car business in this country is a shambles. It's time it really was regulated properly.
You have been very generous
I very been in the trade for nearly 40 years and that car has done more like 60 -70k
Too many red flags inc the back box!!
Keep up the good work!
Yeah.
my guess is that it became a rental car for a few years and then was clocked, doesn't explain why it only has 2 owners on paper tho
James, apologies if this is out of line, yet I must say; you're looking far healthier. Whatever you're doing, keep it up pal!
I prefered him fat, it made me feel better about myself.
Dude, stop repeating yourself after every video.
@@orwell9579 I've not typed this comment before. Yet I didn't realise I had to pass my comments through you for permission - the comment police. stfu
I wonder if this 360 Spider was used as a track day event car, would potentially explain the massive mileage increase over such a short period. Just a thought........
I thought so too.
LOLOL the other James Martin's book on the shelf. Classic.
How about a collab, I'd love to see he some of his cars on the channel!
I've a feeling it's a 60,000 mile car.
I was thinking the odo had actually rolled over and is displaying short mileage because it's incapable of displaying the 6-figures required...being a Ferrari and all.😆
A milage of 56k is being kind. It's probably been up to 56k, taken back to 12k, then back up to 23k. That's circa 69k.
Agree with you re Auction houses and buyers fees. That Bangers & Cash mob charge the same fees to both the seller & buyer, plus VAT on top of that. So they are on a win win regardless.
I was under the understanding that Auctions were a place for people to dump problem cars, you go there and pay under the market and take a gamble on being able to fix it! Plus if you're planning to pay someone else to fix it you'll be out of pocket!
these high heritage blaa blaa blaa places are supposed to be places to buy like sort of collectibles as investments.
in the up economy anyway. and the reason they were 'investments' were driven up by the loop of the prices in them via the bidding up mechanic, with benchmark prices based on other cars and not the pos. it wouldn't even matter if it's a pos if it just goes back to the same loop.
the auction premium you pay though also for them to check it. which they don't.
I put my Continental R through an on-line auction site - it fell short of my reserve so they asked me if I would lower it to get it sold, which I didn't do because after their fees it was a bad loss to me. Anycase 1 year later I put it on eBay and it sold well above my previous auction reserve and the add only cost me £25.00. I have long thought these auction houses are over charging for their service but in fairness they are upfront about their fees. In my case I asked them if they wanted me to reduce my reserve then they should reduce their fees percentage to offset some of the loss, which they weren't prepared to do. As to your Ferrari story it remains the responsibility of the buyer to do their own due diligence
@@richardstamper5630 agree. I’ve bought a few cars at auction. One bargain, one rust bucket and one lucky, ok car. I only risked what I could afford and what I thought was value. The point here being the deception knowing it wasn’t a 20k mile car. That’s not on.
So they charge the buyer 12% and they charge the seller as well?
@@CryptoChrisCard From my experience they either charge the seller or they charge the buyer and sometimes they charge both. Depending on the type of auction house fees can very from 6% to 15%. In my case the rate I was being charged was 7% of the selling price, which was around £3,000
I think your keen observational skill spoting the sorry state of the exhaust headers shows the true state of the car.
I thought it was the silencer at the rear of the bay he was referring to
@@colinscutt5104 It was
James, thanks for the video. As someone who knows nothing about use car sales or auction houses this was an eye opener. You did your friend a huge favour!
When the MOT history of a car is so readily available, I’m completely bewildered that any seller would not be completely transparent about it. Doing otherwise is just a Very Bad Look.
Yep, they know what they are doing and it just so happens to be not just amoral, but illegal
They don't care, the authorities don't care either. Much like anything else in the UK these days. Grenfell, Leasehold, NHS, Immigration, Farmers, tax Dodgers, celebrity chefs abusing staff and crew, long range missiles and WW3. Nobody gives a flying fig about clocked 'super' cars, qel supri!
Back in 2000, in the run up to my 8th Christmas, I found a large mysterious wrapped box in my dad's room, with my name on it.
The big day arrived, and I unwrap my presents, and after I get through all of the (smaller) presents I still haven't opened the mysterious box that's still upstairs. I begged and begged, and dad relented, and I got it downstairs and open it up and... spend all afternoon playing Subbuteo! And it was fun but of course the pitch mat was not flat because it was folded in the box and we couldn't be bothered to iron it. And it was great fun, up until bedtime.
"Are you going to open your other present?"
"What other... oh"
There's a box remaining at the back of the demolished pile. It's... huge. Bigger than the mystery Subbuteo box. How the HELL have I not seen it? (I suspect ADHD played a part lol).
I open it - there on the box is an Audi A4 and Opel Vectra, lights blazing...
Anyway, more begging happens, and my first tabletop oval track was in the dark...
Anyway, I'm 32 now, last weekend I was in a 6 hour multiclass digital slot car race. There was a bit of a gap from age 13-23/24ish where I didn't play with slot cars, but I relapsed hard when I found a club in town when I moved to the midlands 😂
100% agree. I’ve seen people get shockingly bad service from some auctions. Sadly, it seems to be getting more common as time goes on.
Looked at the MOT history on this car before the auction, spoke to Mr Banks on the day of the auction who said the mileage discrepancy was to do with a speedo repair ,based on the condition of the car i would expect it has done nearer the 50k than 20k, definitely need to check these cars out in person.
That car is unsalable. Way to many problems. Thanks James another great rant. Here in Oz if you buy an undisclosed lemon the auction house has to take it back with a full refund.
Honesty is a rare thing in UK business.
But then they only learn it from the Government.
I remember years ago trying to find out why a Buyers Premium is charged. The answer that came through was 'because they can'.
I don't mind an admin fee, but 12% is ridiculous. If people want a bargain and don't mind swimming with sharks, there must be better places to go, like FB marketplace.
Hi. Great video. A mate was going to bid on that 360, but did an MOT check and obviously didn't bid.
Surely, the easiest solution for auction houses is to include the MOT check AND a Car Vertical report..and if anything dodgy, refuse to consign it??
They'd never sell anything
Then no car would pass for a consign. Used cars not new cars. There will always be issues. Get an inspection
I know a guy that uses his F355 as a daily in the UK. He easily puts 35,000 miles on it a year but it always has a service at the right time, genuine parts etc. Its never let him down. They can actually handle big miles 👍
EXCELLENT video. Takes balls to call them out publicly and it’s warranted for sure. I just bought a car at auction and there were a few porkies! Not a deal breaker but shows that auctions can be dodgy
My first experience of Scalextric was when my uncle & aunt gave me and my brother a Triumph TR7 set, with banked figure of 8 track for Christmas 1983. I now have a semi-scale version of Snetterton (2009 layout before the circuit was changed).
It wasn't Scalextric though that got me into cars. It was a gold and red Corgi Junipr Porsche 718 that I still have. That and being taken to a Lotus factory open day in 1978 after Team Lotus won their last F1 World Championshi, when I was 5 years old.
Love your usual car review format Jay but these in-depth 'car story' films are really brilliant - please do more of them!
Bought 2 cars from Manor Park Classics, both pups, they hid obvious damage or wear, then pontificated about "I should have come and seen them". Basically if you are bidding blind, bid half, won't touch them again and certainly won't bid seriously without seeing in the flesh.
Only a lunatic would buy from any auction without even seeing the items
@@pistonburner6448 depends what you're buying, how it's represented and what you're paying. I bought an an E39 535i and an E66 760Li unseen off eBay for a few hundred and a few grand respectively and was not disappointed.
@@Elansol good advice
@stevengore578 trust no one and buyer beware. I put guarantees on the classic Toyota's I sell, full money back. only had to do this twice, both because young UN's did not understand classics require maintenance and 30 year old cars may have things that wear out with use.
You're better off buying private instead of paying 14%, the addational risk is well worth it, espeically if you know how to inspect a car and have access to a ramp etc.
I completely agree with your logical thoughts on the matter, but you forget that honesty and maximum profits don’t necessarily go hand in hand!
I would also propose this was a track day/ super car experience type car. They are usually neglected, ran into high mileage with questionable histories and then shipped off to auction when they’ve served purpose.
a bit like an old horse but they go to the knackers yard
Well done for highlighting a clearly clocked car 👍 don’t overthink it, it’s been clocked simples
TLDF. Owned several. Spoken to absolute experts on these cars. 360 / 430 are clocked for fun. Why do people think SO many 20yo cars have barely 20,000 on the clock... Happens with R8s let alone older Ferraris. Use the airbag counter and the TCU (gearbox ECU - if it's the original one) to verify the mileage. Bottom line with these cars: be VERY careful. Ask EVERY question beforehand, get it inspected by SPECIALISTS that work on these cars every day (there are a few nationwide, but not many - yet one more annoying aspect of ownership) and never pay too much for any of them. The market is sliding on these cars (as it should do - they are a twot to keep on the road and an even bigger twot to sell). They are fun, but BUYER BEWARE.
Rent it then forget it
Best to just buy a high mileage one and save your money
What bugs me so much is there is no consequences in clocking the car. It should be an automatic fine of say 1000 quid if the mileage is suddenly lower on a checkup. Then this would stop and we wouldn’t have to waste time researching this on every car and going to see cars that turn out to be junk.
It just sucks when you have driven to a dealer and realise there is no way the tires and brakes are completely worn out after supposedly running just 1000 miles since they were put on two years ago.
Agree with your comments about auctions and viewers about a trackday car.What was not pointed out was that it was obviously crashed then sold to the new owner. You can can tell this by the Items It failed the next MOT where the mileage dropped
The ride height looks very very weird to me. The rear is a bit cocked upwards and generally high. Almost like its had everything out and new shocks have been put in due to relentless track action. Its probably been absolutely ragged to death and had reset after reset.
I bought a car from Historics a number of years ago and then it turned out the mileage was clocked and the car had potentially been in an accident… it was very cheap so luckily they took the car back and gave me my money back. Lesson learned, avoid auctions
What is their reputation as an auction house? They're making a heck of a commission from the buyer and seller like JM said some simple due diligence wouldn't be that expensive.
@@bmstyleeI am not 100% sure tbh, they have clearly tried to go more up market recently. They’ve ditched the at brooklands part of their name which seems a bit shameful as I feel they used the Brooklands names legacy to get started. They’ve also brought in an Ex 5th gear host. I think they are trying to compete more with Iconic sitting in that tier below bonhams etc. I’ve met a few people who have said they would never ever buy from Historics but I don’t know what that is based on. I found them to be quite difficult to deal with. I imagine a lot of the cars that end up with them are with them because they are pups which people will struggle to sell on the used market.
James. Many thanks for this video. I believe you care about the people on your channel and it is much appreciated. Car auction are not a easy place to navigate! Worth taking a specialist with you when you look at a particular make and model there. This may help unless the car buyer is a expert themselves.
I have never met a car dealer or auction house I would trust. Dealer warranties aren't worth the paper they're written on and all auction houses want is your hard earned money. "You bought it now pi55 off" is their main term and condition.
I agree with you. So where do you buy your cars?
@@danielshinerock1526Main dealer or private sale are the only sensible ways of buying cars IMO
Auction houses actually think they are doing you a favour letting you bid, is the vibe I have always had.
@@danielshinerock1526 I always buy from private sellers. I make sure the car is well looked after and regularly serviced otherwise I walk away. It takes me a while to find the right one but they usually turn up.
I wouldn’t trust anything a used car salesman tells me.
The last car I bought, the salesman told me he was also a qualified commercial pilot.
As an experienced cabin crew with many hours spent in the flight deck talking with real commercial pilots, all of which he didn’t know, I engaged him in a conversation about aviation, and right from the start, when talking about some basic aviation related technical things, it was blindingly obvious he was a complete fantasist.
So if it’s a used car, I always pay for my mechanic to inspect the car first and if the salesperson objects I just walk away.
In my experience, many of these cars end up at an auction for a reason, normally not a good one! If the car is so wonderful and collectible then it should find a new home via the normal sales or dealer channels without any issue at all fair market value.
If I had a car with issues I’d definitely send it to auction.
Really interesting James. In the many many years I've owned cars, I don't think I have ever bought at auction. I was educated young. I have however, chased a good few auctioneers through the courts and cost them many monies.
The big, well established houses like Philips, Bonhams etc., are not a problem, it's the smaller, travelling ones who need to be approached with great caution.
The main thing is that I believe you've probably done a lot of people a good service. Well done
If 'you don't think you have ever bought at auction', then why would you 'have chased a good few auctioneers through the courts and cost them many monies'?, if you havn't bought anything from them you would surely have no cause to sue them? 🤔
My policy? Buy from a dealer that has a reputation to defend and has warranty. IF you are going to buy privately, make sure you see the car in the home in which is has lived. People treat their cars the way they treat their homes. Just get chatting. IF the seller "knows nothing" about the car. Walk. There's always more cars.
Definitely walk if they say don't know nothing governor like.
Wouldn’t even go with that. If they have a reputation. Most of the time they don’t care if the odd 1 in 10 cars is a dog. Most dealers have contracts with main dealers to take all there unwanted part exchange. And all dealers have no idea about the cars history. They use HPI services. Which don’t show all the cars hidden history. Unlike VCheck or Car Vertical. I’ve been in the trade for 30years. Even main dealers I personally know have sold crashed written off cars without doing the correct checks.
@@damienmills293 That all makes sense to me!
I bought a car from historics. They didn’t tell me it had a full engine rebuild nor a leaky sunroof. But fees of 12% plus vat. It’s more to bid online the LBS did one where the house gave a score. B2 etc.
My dad bought a 2016 911 from historics. The day we picked it up the turbos blew up. Historics wanted to hear nothing about it and even offered 1000 pounds to shut him up. He refused and it turns out that the car that was sold as a carrera s was a standard carrera, so they gave all auction fees back to him, and some extra to have the turbos fixed. The car ended up going over to litchfield and having all new everything thrown at it, including kw coil overs and a wavetrac lsd. It now runs 590hp with upgraded gts turbos. But yeah they are far from the most honest auction house
I've visited a few Historics auctions over the years, (a friend works for one of the sites they rotate through over the year, so I get free access to browse the lots through them)
I've never purchased a car through them and honestly, if you've got any knowledge of cars in general, you'll be able to sport the deficiencies of most of their wares! Also seems several car keep going round and round and round not selling.
But then Collecting Cars also have a ton of shite hiding in plain site on their pages. Saw an Rs4 advertised a while back which said it had been involved in a "minor parking accident" But then went on to list nearly every front suspension component and front subframe as being replaced.
Minor??
Yes, bought mine as a low ball gamble sight unseen and actually was fine. But could’ve been a lot worse. Hence I think auction houses should take some responsibility for the massive fees they charge and put a grade to each car
@@jakebaldwin9713 Do your due diligence. Get a professional inspection
I have a feeling that this car has 77,000 miles on it.
Thanks James for this video. If in doubt leave well alone. If it does pass your check list agenda then walk! Same applies to buying a dodgy property or anything else for that matter!
I’ve never bought at an auction but photos tell all. Omitted photos tell even more. And from a private seller I always look at what’s around the car. If they have a tidy garage with other good things…always a plus.
Great video, great insights. Not to shy to call out the auction house, who really should know better. As the saying goes 'Not all cars at auction are bad, but all bad cars will end up at auction'. This for sure is one.
Don’t think I would believe the spare dash story…..🤔🤦♂️ Great video. 👍
We really need people like you who are brave enough to call out these underhand tactics, please carry on doing what you do - Well Done!
An outstanding video.
I nearly got burned on an Aston DB7 a few years back, offered by a dealer who'd just "washed it" prior to me viewing it.
Lets just say that the paintwork was so bad that there was even masking tape left around a window seal and I'd wonder whether getting it wet was a nice way of me not noticing.......
Its a difficult enough world to live in without this level of dishonesty....
Great video James…Many congrats on the 400k marker when it hits in next few days…well deserved…never known a car TH-camr with such a high work ethic.
Calling a 360 ‘Old School’ makes me feel sooo old. 😭
Well, the entire platform of the 360 died a decade ago with the 430
@@shravanav993 NA V8, manual, lightweight, yeah no "modern school" serves up like that anymore.
Yes a Daytona is "Old School"
James I'm always surprised how you've not got far more you're my number one channel
Well done on this issue.
I well recall and old dealer friend many years ago, saying him and others walked out of an auction of antiques in London to protest about "buyers premium" after it was introduced, sadly the auction house kept adding fees and now as far as I know they all do it!
Thanks for the heads up on the free history check, just found that in a 2013 MOT my car lost just over 600 miles, on an over 100k mileage, mind you on an almost now 31 years old car cannot understand what that is about. As you say possibly a clerical error by the MOT station!
Great output, well done and subbed!
Not sure if you can do this with a Ferrari but Porsche you can enter the ECU and check the actual hours the ignition has been on , you can then get a way of checking the mileage based on average speed (usually 40mph.)
I liked this video, I bought my dream car about 7 years that was a disaster, couldn’t wait to get rid of it but endured 2 years of stress before I did so.
I really enjoy these 'forensic' videos you do!
Buyer beware indeed! Very good advice and cheers for highlighting. It's easy to get sucked in by a fancy backdrop or website and forget that, at the end of the day, it's a car auction - no better than any other one.
this is the most useful and honest comment on the real world of auto traders in general. Thank you!!
Scalextric - the only EVs which - [insert irony here]...🙂
Great insight , your best video yet. 👏👏👏
Are you sure this isnt an experience car . I used to instruct for one and those cars are usually trailed to and from and untaxed or mot'd would explain the use off road and the seat wear of 20 people on a day in an out. Only thing that doesnt fit is the manual box they tend to go auto. Its one to avoid for sure
Great video Jay, auctions can seem like a great way to get a deal on a car but to the uninitiated are a huge gamble. This is public service broadcasting giving people some important warnings about things to watch out for when buying any used car, from an auction or even from a dealer.
Auction houses are agents rather than the principals in a sale so they have to be careful to only describe the car as the seller of the car has described it to them. If they start adding their own information / opinion in then they open themselves up to legal action from buyer, seller or both!
Having said that, there are clearly some problems with this car that warranted a saleroom notice or an update to the catalogued information at the very least and arguably the withdrawal of the lot from sale.
Margins are very thin for auction houses (I know, pity the poor auction houses!) and it costs a lot to stage an auction which is why they charge a commission on the sale. Buyers typically take that into account when bidding - it really shouldn't come as a surprise. Auction sales are really wholesale rather than retail sales and are very different to buying from a dealer. If you don't know what you are looking at then bring someone with you who does, or stay well clear!
Good film James quite agree about auction houses charging a shed load for basically doing bugger all ,bearing in mind that there is no such thing as a cheap fezza well done for throwing some light on this.
Good luck getting to 40k.
I'm reminded of the Ferrari mechanic who told of opening up a Daytona speedometer only to find a note saying "Oh, not again!"
That's a joke which I first heard 50 years ago!
I'd say the 55K MOT is infact 25K, the 2 and 5 are next to each other on the numeric keypad, so inline with the previous MOT tests. Changed mileage and misaligned headlights, I think I'd be checking the front end for crash damage.
Took 4yrs to repair as everybody was arguing in court who is liable to pay hence no MOT s for that time
The ones that come after don't match up with a simple one off typo tho. They're all over the place and the dates are too.
I'm also heavily inclined to believe the kind of tester who'd fail it for a windscreen sticker would not make that kind of mistake twice on the same day.
That for sure is a 60+K car with an unknown, possibly dodgy, history. Still, there's no such thing as a bad product, only a bad price. But this is the kind of car that reeeeeally tests that rule hard
NEVER, EVER buy a car at auction. I’ve known many people who have over the years and every single one has been a disaster
I bought an E39 that looked in good nick other than the pool of oil it was sitting on that basically went for scrap value. Ended up being what I thought, maintenance nobody wanted to pay for (every engine gasket, and every control arm/bushing was original). I wanted something to learn on that I could throw away if it didn't work out, and the rare rear blinds and short ratio diff would be worth half what I got it for. I wouldn't have gone for it if I wasn't happy with the worst case scenario.
So true. Good examples of expensive cars NEVER end up in auctions.
Always do an extensive PPI.
I've bought plenty of old snotters at auction, but I knew exactly what I was getting and wasn't disappointed. A few times I got much more than I expected.
1992?! I was driving cars a bit bigger than scalextric then. But I have one up on most of you, I go everywhere on 4 wheels! Even the toilet!
It’s clearly a 60k supercar hire/rental or experience day car. I’d put money on the mileage being intentionally clocked.
100%
Top Notch mate....keep at it.....from an old 348 Spider owner from way back.....from Modena via Italy, France, UK, USA,, to Vancouver, BC via the QE2.....and it did redline in top....in Nevada..
That’s bad! An auction house of some note too! Good work James. Fascinating. Your knowledge and insights are impressive.
It's one thing if you're going down the local auction house & buying a banger or insurance write off - there you know it's all at your risk. I am very disappointed to hear that it's the same at the top end vlassic auctions
I had ScaleXTrics, but that's not what started me down the petrolhead road. It was going from drab every day early 80s cars to riding in my father's 57 Thunderbird he'd spent years restoring. I think that's when I realized cars could be more than just transportation, they could be driven or ridden in for enjoyment. There's obviously something in this car's history that someone wants to hide, which would put me off instantly not knowing what else they're hiding that isn't as obvious.
Worked in dealerships as technician here in the states for more than a decade and the “processing fee” is mostly there to guarantee that some money will be made on a NEW car sale. The margins on new cars are very slim, and often times are sold at invoice just so they can get more/rotate inventory. Used cars are a different story, and that’s were a dealership really makes their money off of sales. 12% buyers fee sounds absolutely ridiculous to me though.
Courageous video James! Spot on analysis. They need to make a profit, but there should be some protection to buyers too in the case of potentially fraudulent behaviour. Cheers!
Stellar video, especially that start which for some reason made me tear up a bit. Hitting the subscribe button, thank you!!
Welcome! Thanks for subscribing
Historics T&C are the worst out there. I bought 3 cars at one auction, a Rolls Royce, Bentley and a Mercedes 300SEL 6.3.. None were anything like described. The 6.3 was discribed as matching numbers, it was'nt, it said good runner, It did'nt move and needed complete rebuild, serious engine fault. They pointed me toward the T&C basically it says you cannot go on anything they wrote in there discription or anything told to you by any member of staff written or spoken.
"The Lot is not sold as corresponding with any description in the Catalogue or any statement or representation made in writing by, or on behalf of, the Auctioneer." they literally could say one owner, running in miles on a 300,000 mile car and theres nothing you can do about it. Stay very very clear from Historics..
@@marinefarmer7494 These auctions are like Storage Hunters. Except for the huge commissions.
This speaks to me of somebody who bought multiple instrument clusters and just kept replacing them so they can up the value of their vehicle when they sell it. I would put an OBD2 scanner on it and find out what the car computer says it has for mileage, every single vehicle auction house has a scanner
Makes we wonder if this has been an experience day car and periodically had a haircut. Being on track explains wear, stickers and gaps.
Ah, memories. Several pals and I used to get together and combine our Scalextric sets to make a giant track that filled the living room. I remember when the first models with steerable front wheels came out (I'm that old, sadly). I was first to get one and nobody could beat me. Great days.
I’ve done the Autotrader check on my trade dealers site and it’s come up “ALL CHECKS PASSED” even with the mileage discrepancy. But the actual car initially comes up as a F430 first then a 360 as you go into the full check.
This is a permanently marked for life car and has been seriously compromised for any future sale. I’d run a mile away on this one. Never trust anyone when money is involved, I personally view every Ferrari I bid on now especially from auction houses they are the easiest way to get your pocket pinched. Most auctions don’t inspect the vehicles themselves but rely on the seller’s to disclosure any issues and as we know sellers of these types of car rarely tell you everything. Even the best looking car have a history. Keep up the good work.
Ferrari F430 4.3 Spider 2dr Petrol Manual (420 g/km, 490 bhp) HF04ASV 2004 (04)
20,000 miles
Petrol Manual Black 4 owners
I'd say that the histories of two cars have become confused -- possibly deliberately.
Thanks
I was at the Historics auction and spent 30secs looking around this car and thought it looked “well used”. If i was in the market for one of these the 30secs would have been enough for me to walk on by, and that’s without knowing the mileage issues. Apart from mileage the other MOT issue that would raise an eyebrow for me was the sudden need to reset the headlamp aim on both headlamps. Front end repair??? Another thing that didn’t help this car was that they had parked it next to a beautiful red manual 430 which made the condition of the black one even more unattractive.
It could have been a double bluff: to divert all suspicion AWAY from the red 430 😉
I was hooked from the start, living in Ireland in 1985, it wasnt great for getting good scaelextrix product, but our local town had a toy shop with uk connections, so we couldn't get everything available in the uk, but about 50%.
George Bridges was a lovely man.
And my sisters husband was a bug fan too, thank you ❤❤❤❤❤
Best sponsor product placement EVER! Nice job, Jay 👏🏼. And great video as well 👍🏼
Excellent video! You're highlighting a huge weakness in the car trading industry. I take my hat off to you, sir.
This seems properly moody this car. Not just the milage discrepancy but the milage increase in-between FAILED mots. This to me says time overseas. Your right I'm not sure why the auction house would want to list this car. Great video as always. Much love.
Excellent video exposing the outrageous auction house system buyers appear to be falling for. What's really disappointing is that Vicki Butler Henderson and TGE associate themselves with it.
Great video, very informative and enlightening. Sharing this highlights to use all the importance of doing thorough checks before getting carried away with the purchase. Really well put together James and looking forward to next one you mentioned.
Just response to a previous comment referring to "competing with Harry's garage" you are not competing with anyone you content and delivery is very individual to you. (Both channels very good with their own individual way)
I play Harry when I want to sleep.
Harrys garage, hubnut and furious driving are best
This wouldn't be the 1st time that Historics sales have unchecked dodgy cars listed
Jay, great video... BRAVISSIMO we need more of these VIDS rather than less.. 'cos there are 'lessons learned' from unscrupulous sellers / dealers et al and people 'flipping cars' 4 a fast buck........
Terrific video, that felt like ten minutes, not half an hour!
As someone who also works in the motor trade, sadly, dishonesty is still rife giving those of us who just to empower those like us who love their cars a bad name.