My Thoughts After ~150 Games
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 ก.พ. 2025
- The Open Beta is officially over! Many people have been asking me for my thoughts, so here they are!
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What I learned from this video is that Arty has the worst chat on twitch
Wait till you see his stream.
Chat and Arty are like a mutually abusive couple. They are both the best they deserve.
I've tried to watch Arty's stream several times but for me it's literally unwatchable due to all the AI voice message spams that comes from his viewers. Which is how Arty obviously wants his stream to be, maybe for 12 year olds it's fun but not for me sadly..
What do you mean? The chat is hilarious
yeah the chat looks obnoxious as hell. props to Arty for being able to ignore it and have this in-depth discussion. always respect his insight and professionalism
@@jericho7852 - 12 yr old spotted
I honestly think the sound design is a much bigger issue than the graphic style. Nothing feels gritty or sounds like it has punch. The hornet auto cannons sound so pathetic its actually insane
Same. I posted feedback on the discord about. The sound design is dogshit
A lot of the sound is temp
ya but even sound can't save the game at this point. It looks like a mobile game and the maps are really bland and empty. Their is absolutly no detail on the maps lol. Just grass and a dirt path leading to enemy base. Nothing in the enviorment anywhere lol.
Yea bro the game is early beta . They don't even have the third race yet, you think they would have all their map doodads fleshed out by now? Lol
I imagine most of the sounds are placeholders. Sound design gets done way further into development. It really does amaze me how few people know how game development works, when they see a beta or alpha product they act like everything is set in stone...
just from a viewer and esport enjoyer perspective, i don't think this game is going anywhere. they call this open beta, yet it's not even feature complete. in terms of artstyle, we could argue about whether you like it or not. for me personally i just looks like a budget starcraft 2 mod. in terms of gameplay i don't think it adds enough new and interesting things to the table. yesterday i've watched grubby stream a new rts game called "godsworn". while this game is also still rough around the edges, you can clearly see it's vision. it's very coherent overall. and it's made by two people. this is a game that deserves attention and proper funding.
It just goes to show you don't need $40M and 50+ employees, some of which are from Blizzard, to make a good looking game. Talent and vision is what matters. Sadly, Frost Giant seem to have neither.
The art is very important. It gets attention when the units and concepts just look cool
Yeah I don't care for the art style so far. It's got that cartoony bland thing going on.
I'm not a good RTS player, I will never play on a level where the gameplay is JUST what I care about. So, for me, art style matters more than perhaps someone who can enjoy the game on a deeper mechanical level.
@@MikeYohe This. Art style or rather visual aesthetic is quite important. It doesn't need to hyper realistic or anything, but a strong style is vital. Both to engage the players and communicate gameplay.
If its bland or muddied, that hurts the game experience.
function over esthetics. There is no use, if the units "looks cool", when zoomed in, one by one.
You need a distinctiv look so you can have a good overlook over a battle, if there are 100 unites, maybe 3-4 differnt ones from each faction, fighting agains each other. Thats MUCH more importand for a good RTS and they nailed that.
Everything else is just personal taste 🤷♂
I like the designs from infernals for example 🙂
a lot of early Starcraft 2 hype was how awesome the game looked, it was a really beautiful game at the time of its release and a lot of machines couldn't run the game above medium
Art style is pretty important cause you should want the game that you're going to stare at for 1000s of hours to look presentable
I'm honestly glad I'm not alone in bring allergic to the art style. I don't even think it's just the style. The units don't look functionally distinct sometimes.
Thats what happens when you take a designer from SC2 and he becomes the lead designer. You need someone with actual inspiration and creativity... they're just trying to merge SC2 and WC3. They need more than that. Swap Wong out and they might save it.
I think the art style is HUGE, and I think Starcraft is much better in that regard. It's like buying a car for most people... the style usually is the source of the passion. I think this game just helps people to appreciate Starcraft more.
The graphics are on par with phone games shit. SC2 still looks sleek and gritty, everything has an almost waxy shine to it.
Sadly, agreed. The game looks awfully generic and bland.
Art style might not matter to you, but I assure you the game will suffer greatly in terms of popularity if it's not improved. Most people are not aspiring for a pro gaming rts climb and just want something that looks and sounds cool. The competitive aspect comes after they've adjusted to the game and enjoyed it as noobies. Stormgate's competition is SC2, and that has a crisp, rich aesthetic that feels good to play in, and makes you feel good for doing well at. A steep hill to climb, to say the least.
Yes, graphics are really important. I wouldn't want to play a spreadsheet, games are more than competition and play, it's an art form
Yes, weird comment by RT indeed. The vast majority of people are casuals and rarely to never play ladder at all. So if you want to make this game for the hypercompetitive you are doomed to fail, especially since this game doesn't even try to capture the BW/SC2 audience. Also the artstyle of SC2 was a common complaint, yet they leaned even more into it than in SC2. I honestly don't know who this game is for aside from the WC audience to some degree.
Stormgate competition is not SC2 or rather it is, but not in the way you think... Its not like "hey we have sc2 fully supported by blizzard vs stormgate fully supported by FGS". We have "SC2 ditched and disbanded by blizzard vs stormgate fully supported by FGS" and thats a huge difference. First of all SG has content updates (campaign, coop, 3v3s heros and seasonally new units) similar to what League of Legends is doing. A huge mainstream casual appeal is the "oh there is a new update, lemme boot up the game and try it out". I know from anecdotal evidence (friends who I play apex legends, LoL and hunt showdown), that we usually cycle the games based on the update cycle. New season in apex with new weapons and champs? Cool lets play it for 3-4 weeks. New LoL season? Lets go hit up some games. The whole content cycle is sooo important for casuals and the data supports that. You can see significant player base spikes in these titles when new free content gets released. SC2 is dead right now (not in the sense of player engagement, but content creation). The replay-ability is very low unless you grind the ladder.
Also you have to consider, that SC2 is unfunded at this point. The price pools except for katowice are drastically crippled. Right now a GSL champion (the 2nd highest prestigous tournament in SC2) receives 3755$... I repeat 3755$. Just very recent ago it was 25.000$ for first place. Even worse than that are the price pools for players RO8 or RO16. That results in a very toxic and unhealthy pro scene. We barely have any new pro players emerging and those who are pros already, barely live paycheck to paycheck. You as the average SC fan might not realise that, but our pro scene is heavily damaged right now. Give it 2-3 years and half of the pros gonna retire and there won't be any new fresh blood to take their place. Why am I telling this? Well most pro players already are eye balling stormgate. Stormgate will with most definite certainty have healthy and big price pools regardless of viewership, because FGS will have a huge incentive to subsidize the tournament scene (just as riot does with LoL or blizzard did with sc2). Whereever the money is, the pro players will go regardless of fking art style or if they think sc2 is better. I guarantee you 80-90% of the sc2 pro players will switch to stormgate. So your alternative as an rts fan will be either a) play/watch sc2, with none of your favourite pro players still playing and a significant decrease in player base, which results in an even worse death spiral for sc2 (similar to broodwar 2010-2015) or b) stormgate with all the support and pro player engagement. People will gravitate towards stormgate with high certainty just because there won't be any sc2 anymore for some significant time. Sure SC2 will eventually recover after couple of years, but it will be heavily damaged on stormgate release and thats that. I hope both games can coexist and sc2 lives on, because I love sc2. The saudi money incentive does change the equation a bit, but I highly doubt it will help. Art style is such a surface level issue, that people will just get used to. Lots of oldschool rts fans will not play it regardless, but who cares. Stormgate will foster a new generation of rts players who like the art style. Similar to league of legends, dota 2, valorant and many more stylized games, stormgate will also have enough people enjoying it.
Arty would literally play a stickman game made in paint if it meant it would become an esport.
sad as it is to say I imagine this art style was picked with intention and with market research. I mean the most popular games apex fortnite league all have similar art styles to this. Unfortunately its not gonna appeal to the average sc2 fan...
Totally agreed. The game is in a way earlier state than even Starcraft 2 Beta. There's like nothing about it that's "done" yet; graphics still have lots of placeholders, races and tiers aren't even all there yet, and a lot of the mechanics are still in the testing phase. Even still, it feels pretty good to play. It's not my favorite game to play right now, but I see myself getting really into it when it's closer to release.
I hope not every unit is a placeholder
i mean... it's a beta so...
@@soccerguy2433 Except it's been in development for, what? 3,5 - 4 years? If they're still in the earlier stages of beta, when will this game be finished? And more importantly, will it actually be finished when they release it? These are valid questions to ask, the studio only has a certain budget and the audience only has a certain attention span and interest.
@@resee9856 Games are not made in 2 weeks. If the basics are already ready (operating units, networks, working maps), it will not take another 4 years.
@@resee9856 it's been around 3 years since frost giant was founded, and considering game development doesn't start overnight, it is a really short time. starcraft 2 was in development for over twice as long for example
The art is important in terms of quickly being able to distinguish units and tell what's even going on. Too many vanguard units look similar to each other and in-game fights look very messy at the moment
On God, you must be trolling. Name two units that look similar in the vanguard faction. Is it the humanoid with the large sword and the dude with the gun that's tripping you up? Genuinely point out two units that look similar
@@nfcheeze You obviously studied design principles like contrast, balance, hierarchy, proportion and color theory for an exact amount of 0 hours.I guess you were too busy taking cheap sarcasm classes.
@@nfcheeze Bobs and marines are indistinguishable. Lancers from behind also look like marines as their more disgtinguishable feature, their giant sword, sort of disappears. That's exactly what bad art style means.
@@nfcheeze ofc there is a difference and its not a big deal. But then you look at SC2, compare and all the vanguard units do start looking like a blob with some extensions. Its not even rly about the colour, more about the general shapes and unit geometry. And yes most rts games have very similar looking units i.e. AoE, its just that it was something that made Starcraft THE RTS at least for me. Again not vital for success but a cherry on top.
Do they though? I can clearly differentiate a lancer, from an exo and med tech.. They have very distinct models. The vulcan also really pops out in fights. You can clearly tell whats going on, I dunno how you can even have that opinion... If anything the infernals are a bit messy sometimes due to clumpyness, but even there you can clearly differentiate the units.
I mainly play brood war, and I had fun playing SG. Definitely some things that are incomplete and I do agree with some of the visual clarities of some units as well as sound effects. Every unit in brood war sounded unique and you can tell immediately what is shooting or hitting what, but it's till hard to distinguish in SG.
From my experience, "It's still in open beta, I'm sure all of it will get fixed." never works out the way people think it does. Yes, the game is clearly unfinished and is subject to change, but as a rule when you are unhappy with the beta, the game will rarely change to the degree where you suddenly like it. I know I'm not giving examples here, but I've seen it time and time again. Companies aren't going to change things they spend thousands of dollars to design, that's the truth of the matter.
I dunno looking at league of legends you can see how massively the game improved over the years constantly with every season visually and in terms of gameplay features. Of course if you generally hate the core concepts of a game, it wont help you, but most people dislike minor things.
Yep, SC2 looked complete graphically 3 years before it came out. People are hopelessly coping if they think that there is going to be a big change visually.
@@Nuurix league was a completed game, of course it was constantly updated and new features were added to it, but fundamentally, the game is unchanged.
@@hypers829 what do you mean by "completed"? On release LoL had like 15 champions and half of the map features it has now... What made league awesome was the addition of the dragon system, rift herald, crab, visual rehaul, addition of around 100 champions all with unique designs and complex item systems.. The very first seasons of league of legends is unbearable to watch from todays perspective. I beg you to search for LoL gameplay from 2011 and see for yourself. I cant believe how anybody can see that and think "oh yeah yeah thats a completed game visually and mechanically" lmao
@@GreatBlueWorld Not to be nitpicky but that's a turn based game.
"its a beta, im sure this will get fixed" - famous last words
They are not aaaa studio to afford not fixing that
lol people think beta means a glorified demo now a days. The game is in the middle of development you can't expect them to have a finished product...
@@BagginsessThen FG shouldn't called it beta.
@@allanshpeley4284 ok maybe AAA gaming has ruined your understanding of what beta means but beta means it isn't done yet. If you were to talk about any other beta software outside of gaming no sensible person would consider it to mean it's reflective of the final product. It's also going into early access after the beta so it is very clearly still under development.
I don't see it. To me seems they genuinely want to make a good game here. Could be wrong but i don't get the "cash grab" feeling from what they released.
Stormgate is bringing a lot of attention to the RTS genre overall. It probably won't revolutionize the genre, but it is getting all of the other RTS titles more exposure which we appreciate as developers. We will definitely see RTS games rise to the top over the next couple years and the rest will adjust or fall behind. It's an exciting time for RTS overall.
Rts games will not rise to the top again like bw and sc2 did.
Rts won't rise ever again. The player base is gone. Zoomer kids don't want to play something that's hard and complicated. Older generation don't have time for games as mich anymore
@@petercriscuola I guess we will find out 👍
@@k3yeppers we can only hope... 👍
RTS needs to evolve, old-style rts cannot rise to the top anymore, as sad as this sounds. The most important thing is that RTS need to be fun when you're bad. The current formula prohibits that.
5:40 honestly, i'd even argue that they're maybe allowing people to play way too early, but i mean, what do i know, they're the ones developing it
The game is supposed to be released in 2024.
They didn't release it to be played too early, the devs just showed they have no idea what they are doing when it comes to making a good RTS game. Art, Music are beyond inexcusably horrible, gameplay is significantly worse than SC2 and Broodwar. There is no redemption here which is very sad
Yup, should've cooked the game long enough to finish the basics of the three races and some early drafts of unit models rather than a bunch of nonsense placeholders.
this is basically an alpha.
I think it'll get pushed back. Also I think if they would have just put the disclaimer that Dustin Browder did for SC2 of, 'anything here could change and is not final', would have made people more comfortable even if they decided not to change anything.
I played a lot of Stormgate in the beta and I have to say im positively surprised by the game. I had some nerve wrecking back and forth games even though the game isn't even half way complete. They are going into the right direction I'd say. With how close the devs are with their community I'm sure they'll incorporate most of the feedback they got and iron out more details. The rest comes with time as people figure the game out.
Lmfao, simping for a company that pissed away 25 million dollars and scammed you on kickstarter.
we might not care about artstyle but for mainstream ppl to like it, it needs to be cool. what got me into sc2 was badass marine cinematics and insane zerg armies. sg races are just a bit eh.
This is why it will never be successful. The best games always have a story with meaning behind the pieces. RTS is too niche a market to succeed with its predecessors being so story dense for it to succeed off game play alone. It would basically just be chess, which nobody can make money off streaming online
2 months late here, but damn you’re right.
It feels like they didn’t put any passion or thought or care into that aspect, and I bet they really didn’t.
And when that’s the implicit message you give your potential playerbase, nahhhh.
Starcraft and Warcraft were so good because they put so much focus and energy and effort into the worldbuilding and the story.
Age of Empires etc are based off of reality which comes with its own lore.
Lore and story are the fuel that push newcomers to engage and makes them stay around because everyone relates to them.
Hell, take away the background, lore or stories from Warhammer 40k and it would have been avoided like the plague.
No one wants to play something that feels soulless, and sadly Stormgate feels like that right now. I hope that it’s just too early to tell
@@Powd3r81I don't think it's that deep
If the games fun people will play it
This aged like milk. The art direction is a deal breaker for a lot of people, including me. Just look at any forums or any comment section of stormgate content. This is NOT a vocal minority.
I get your perspective. The art style is important for me personally.
I'm a big PvE and campaign guy. I dont like hard-core 1v1 ladders. I dont like stress.
I want to slow down a bit and enjoy everything.
I dont think I'm alone here.
This game is like what seems like all the games now days. Cartoony and hollow. A marine in sc2 isnt just a bland skin. I hope they are able to give these units RELATABLE lore and stories for us to connect to. But i doubt it. They are so....random looking and detatched seeming. Also. The units don't seem responsive still. It seems clunky.
What I notice from the autobuild is that it seems to try to grab the closest worker from these groups in descending priority: 1. completely idle, 2. moving towards resource patch, 3. currently mining, 4. currently returning resources. So that priority list seems intuitive and like it makes sense to do it that way, because you ideally want to grab a worker that doesn't have resources or isn't halfway through its mining action, but they should weight distance much higher.
art style is important even for practical concerns such as being able to easily read what's happening. the whole "I don't care about graphics" is a weak cope. starcraft and brood war looked good for their time.
I don't think I've ever heard someone claim SC1 looked bad
Whether RT cares about Art or not Lots of People do and Selling a product you want Lots of ppl to want your product not just Artosis
SC1 is still the most readable and aesthetically RTS out there.
I think the reason is that the units feel distinct from the environment, in a way, the age of the game works in its favour
Even in SC2, the units look much less out of place, and that makes it harder to read. Too much realism is bad, is my point.
But, holy hell, Stormgate looks really confusing to me and the units blend in so much, imo.
I believe the words you're looking for are "stormgate looks like shit". Artosis is lying to himself and his audience acting like graphics aren't a big deal, of course they are. They don't need to be next-gen or whatever edgiest thing there is, but they sure need to look sharp and readable. Stormgate is a mess.@@aerrowqueing
Whenever I check back in with Stormgate my first thought is ALWAYS: "Surely those graphics are still placeholder? They have NONE of the polished design that Blizz is famous for? - This looks like some weird indy game alpha..."
Same
I'm calling it. This game won't dethrone SC2. It has no grit. It will be a flash in the pan.
Lack of grit it's a great way to say it
"But our sales team projected that x amount of grit will lead to a y amount of loss by decreased interest in lower age demographics. A child-like mobile game artstyle was projected to increase younger age interest by z amount!" $$$$$
Lmao SC2 never even dethroned BW, what are you even talking about? SG is SC2 but somehow even worse.
I'd give it time. I know it was an "open beta." It was more realistically an open alpha, so hard to compare alpha vs a finished game that's been out for a decade
SC2 had a lot less grit than BW. I didn't like it, but eventually got used to it. I don't understand the appeal of the fairytale Pixar visuals that Blizzard has been pushing for, but if the game is fun I will not notice it eventually.
i feel like the devs dont have any orginal ideas. artstyle is a mis match of other blizzard games and factions
Vanguard: let's join terran and overwatch
Infernals: lets join zerg and diablo demons
im guess the last faction will be orcs mixed with protoss or something like that
It does not feel like stormgate will be a big hit, and I refer to giantgrantgames and his take on developing the next rts
Yeah I totally agree. Nobody cares about 1v1 gameplay. Give us a good story/campaign and maybe some cool co-op missions.
@@Rockmonsterdude even tho I love 1v1 gameplay, this is absolutely correct, it's those other modes that'll move copies
@@countarchvileLoL is multiplayer only. Just an example and a good one.
@@EB-jf5oi LoL is not an RTS tho. RTS seems have to have a bigger casual crowd (SC2 Co-Op has more players than ladder).
And also 1v1 games are always more niche cuz people like having a team to fall back on, 1v1 is more stressful cuz it all depends on you nobody else to blame if you lose.
@@countarchvile Competitive gaming is huge amongst gamers under 30. Pretty much all of the most played games are games solely or mostly focused on multiplayer. That's the crowd I would be attempting to gain. Not the remaining boomers still gaming.
its weird that it was called beta, since Beta is feature complete, and SG didn't even have the third race in.
With the information we got, I start to doubt a third race will come at all.
@@gerkan2052what??
If the release is still bound for 2024 - when will they show it? Why is there not a single unit or idea released yet? Time is kinda running out imo.
@@gerkan2052 we’re not even two months in to the year, let’s check back at the end of the year lol
they did confirm a third race in an interview, they didnt wanna show anything yet but all they said is "there is alot of yellow"@@gerkan2052
It's called a beta but it's on par with alphas. There is A LOT missing; maybe that means there's a lot of correction potential.
I could complain about a lot of what is there (I mean, I am an RTS player after all), but I think what gets me are some of the design philosophies, like:
High HP/low damage - fights currently have none of the WC3 dynamics and none of the SC2 explosivity/excitement. As of now, they've found a perfectly bland wasteland between what made fights in each of those games compelling.
Ranged (and flying) units are bad (low damage, weak abilities, relatively low range considering how long units last) - this kills A LOT of strategies and tactics. This boils much of the micro down to making melee units hug or separating groups so they arc better - there is little point to focus fire or stop-move (save with the Hedgehog).
Race themes don't match their unit design, I.E. Vanguard has slightly slower macro (Command Post is 50L and 10s more than Shrine), but they also have fewer/worse defensive options (Shroud/Pigs are conceptually much stronger than 'Call to Arms'). Because ranged units suck, you also can't rely so much on your structures/positioning for defense. Infernals are faster to macro and so have a swarmy theme, but their basic unit is an Orc Grunt and does the most DPS of any Infernal unit, so the only way to do swarmy stuff is to build a ton of chonky hard-hitters.
Upgrades are few and either useless (like the Gaunt's Reaper's Rush) or necessary but uninteresting (like the Brute's Soulforge Ascendancy).
The aesthetics are a mess. The LoL art style is one thing, but mini-map clutter, missile visibility, lumbering animations and this 'medieval swords/lances vs techy mechs' look is real ick IMO.
As an aside from design intent, I'm really shocked at how bad the pathing is, particularly because that was one of the first things they we're promoting about the game. It's not just buggy (units stuck on each other or in cliffs, units giving up on their target easily), but it's weak, too. Units will not fan out to find attack positions, they waffle in very linear positions. Trying to micro back hurt units (a common and strong aspect of WC3 micro) is just pain.
Overall, I think they have a lot more than a year's worth of work to do before this becomes interesting to me. Fingers crossed that they're willing to back off some of their less sensible design choices and do some full reworks.
Maybe they're just the only company using the term " beta" correctly. As in, it's an actual testing phase and not just a marketing tool.
@@cod-the-creator Words are social constructs. It's virtually impossible to be the only source using a word a certain way and to be correct in doing so. They could have and IMO should have referred to this as an alpha, which is also a testing phase and which can also be presented to the public. There is a whole race missing (at least) and no one aspect of the game is even nearing completion - that's just not a beta.
Arty is right about them wanting to get the game to people early and that having good potential (if they listen to and use the feedback). I don't want to beat this point too much, but the current state and how they're presenting it is incredibly concerning IMO.
You guys might be right, maybe I'm giving them too much rope. I remember SC2 beta being amazingly polished, but the game was dogshit on release. I think companies feeling forced to release early is a big problem of modern gaming, so I guess I'm more inclined to let a bad beta test slide as long as the end result is a better game.
The biggest problem with this game is frost giant studios promised to innovate on the genre, to make things new and exciting. Right now I just see a wc3 clone.
I'm not sure all of your suppositions are correct. The current strongest thing in the game is the vangaurd exo/medtech bio ball. I'm not sure where you are getting the "ranged units are bad" thing. Even gaunts, which do fall off late game, are a primary unit in basically every early game inf. Then there's the hornet, a flying unit, which absolutely dominated the open beta in the van vs van matchup.
DISCLAIMER: my opinion everywhere below, and I'm not a fan of this game and i didn't play starcraft much either.
1:30 tell all you want about the fact that graphics don't matter, they actually do. Dota is a well refined "chess" game with nevertheless pretty good graphics, so is starcraft. Yes, they have been out there for a while and they are not on early stages of development, but first impressions last, and I'm not playing a visually terrible game, since for most it's firstly enjoyment and attraction to the game and then the strategy and competitiveness. I wouldn't play dota if it was buggy, pixellated and plain disgusting in terms of graphics, yet a nice game still, right?
That said, hope to see stormgate getting better sometime, if it's worth the wait and development effort anyway.
Looks like discount Starcraft with modded Zerg, IDK.
The game does look ugly. It also seems to be pretty slow paced compared to what I am accustomed to in RTS.
SC2 is overly fast pace tho 'i CliCk FaStEr sO I WiN"
WC3 had it better pace wise
I hated starcraft 2's pacing after legacy of the void dropped. Straight up quit the game. A more relaxed pacing will be a big win for me. @@Ziegfried82
It's not the fastest apm that wins, it's the most effective apm that wins. Terrans spam random hotkeys, get 300 apm and think they're good. Don't be a Terran.@@TorqC69
I feel like faster APM will help in any RTS really. @@TorqC69
I played about 20 games or so. It's a rough transition from starcraft.
Art style DOES matter alot in a game.
Its literally the first thing you see and judge when picking up a game. The fact that the saying 'don't judge the book by its cover' exists is primarily because we DO judge a book by its cover naturally.
I'm glad Stormgate is giving RTS the attention it deserves. But I'm kind of iffy that it had to be stormgate that does it.
Stormgate's art direction was such an unfortunate choice. The game is dead on arrival because of it.
I feel exactly the Same. The Game has nothing Special about it. It Looks like a cheap mobile sc2 Clone from some students. The Game will be dead on arrival
"i don't like so no one will like it" lmao no
the art direction is that way because many people like it that way
don't suppose you have access to some better market research than the folks whose jobs depend on it do you
For me it's not the art style per say, it's more the silly or childish atmosphere they are going for. If it was the same art style but like more adult oriented it would be fine.
Agree. It feels too much like what Heroes of the Storm was to the MOBA scene.
@@martinkrauser4029What a take. The style is evidently unpopular, whether or not the game ends up being successful or not.
For me I don't care about 'graphics' but I care about visual design. Port these designs back to a 1997 sprite based RTS, they just aren't working. They COULD improve and do better, but the job of convincing me the game will be a timeless classic is theirs. I'm just not impressed at all yet.
Yep. Unit designs and stuff, just not cool enough. Doesn't look good enough. Lacks clarity and coolness. Gameplay looks a lot less exciting
The main issue with the art style is differentiate between the factions. In SC most people will know when something is human or human vehicle vs bugs. Or the very alien crystaline aspect of Protoss. In Stormgate looks like brutes on side fighting brutes from the orther side.
SC2 made some kind of deal with the devil to get the unit pathing so good. We may never see another game that matches that aspect. None of the MOBAs have managed it, even with a much lower amount of units to deal with.
But also in Starcraft 2 the units all move into one spot so they are crammed together.
In Starcraft 1 units have some space between each other and in Warcraft 3 they move in squads. I think I like Warcraft 3 pathing the most.
I guess it depends on what you want to do with your army.
In starcraft one they do try to move to one spot, and if a unit in the selection cant get close enough it will constantly run around the other units trying to get to that spot.
Dotalikes don't *want* SC2-like pathing because it ruins hero blocking, which is a central strategic element of the game.
To further the chess analogy. Its like if a chess board instead of being clearly black and white, both sides are shades of gray. And a lot of the features of pieces are lacking so you have to look extra for if a piece is a queen, bishop or pawn.
I normally expect a beta to be closer to the finished product but as long as it improves a lot until release Im ok.
This.
maybe you guys only care about mechanics and would be ok if units looked like literal piles of rotting poop.
but for me, the game looking like mobile trash is an Insta turnoff.
You want to get good in a game because you get inspired by the faction you are playing, you like how cool they look and sound.
You know marines would bring beers inside nuclear bombs and don't give a fuck about anything, they are literal badasses, and you want to lead these guys into battle.
You like the terrifying aura of the Protoss and the horrifying presence of the Zerg. If these three meet on the battlefield it will be mayhem.
now if the units look like Disney cartoons you want to laugh and close the game.
@@gitjiggybruh dont care what it is as long as it does something new, im tired of this mobile artstyle.
You would be calling Warraft 3 a mobile game if it came out today
@@potatoman8194 warcraft 3 had comic/cartoon style not mobile. Mobile is its own thing, that has been overused to the point of vomit.
Think I’m somewhat in the middle. I turn graphics all the way down in rts. I agree the roleplaying element is fun, I’m leading these greasy marines against the hive Zerg.. it’s fun. But playing I need better performance. I can RP in campaign or vs friends or comp.
But I agree with the mobile thing. In essence I full turn down graphics but just the fact that it does seem like a mobile game to me, I can’t play it out of some dumb principal that I think cross platform games like that are gimped out of pc potential.
Watching the beta a bunch sold me on the game. It's obviously still very early but it's a fine start. Curious what all this feedback will lead to.
It's really cool watching the play develop and the different levels of play that already exist. Some people use air units!
@@andrewferguson6901 I am turning red laughing at "Some people use air units!"
A beta isn't "very early".
@@HighLanderPonyYT yup, it's more like "really early"
It's more like "close to release".
I did a few games and I was hoping stormgate will bring me some open minded new generation RTS experience. But it lacks on that. It is the same as every other RTS , get resources, build army and hit opponent. I was more impress with warcraft 3 when the hero system increment. At this point I don't find any gimmic of stormgate that made me want to play that other than other RTS. Unit composition, balancing that is out of discussion at this point. But the mechanics to have more ideas. I dont know how to improve but what I was looking for isn't there currently.
Even the menu screen looks like a complete rip off of sc2... 😅
For me it feels as a really weird wc3+sc2 combo, not in a good way at all
This is why new games are no fun anymore. A select few people get their hands on it and become professionals and burn through 150 games while us peons have to wait for the game to come out way later. Its just no fun anymore
You are saying art style doesn't matter while playing a game that literally has peak aesthetic (SC:BW), which looks incredible even after ~25 years now? Not to mention the sound design too.
"So early."
It's open beta, that take won't hold much water.
I'm getting some Company of Heroes 3 red flags, bad graphics and sound designs will really drive newer players away and lower the overall satisfaction of playing.
In fact most of the casual RTS players I've known played WC3/SC2 campaign because it looked and sounded good (for their time).
Also if the tutorial is bad, people won't bother learning to play and it's extremely difficult to make a tutorial that is both short and informative.
Arty is hand waving away a lot of valid criticisms that i don't think can be fixed as easily as he does.
That's probably because his NDA is forcing him to. How else would he stay on that sweet Frost Giant money train?
Gameplay is the most important to me, but I would like more contrast between the units and environment. As a long time Quake player I miss being able to turn the graphics of a game down, but apply vibrant colors to important objects.
Played about 20 games. The game isnt bad, its a good foundation but it definitely lacks its own identity in the artstyle and the design. After playing storm gate I found myself less interested in the game as it just seems like a worse sc2. I don't think that will change by the time it goes into early access later in the year. It will gain some traction and cause a stir, but i think it will cool off pretty quickly and i just don't see a 1.0 release later on in its life propelling or extending its player base that much. By its release i hope that they have done a artstyle and sound design overhaul, worked out some of the collision issues, better map design, and way better balancing.
What's disappointed me with stormgate is that they are mostly treating it as a competitive game. When they first announced it, it sounded like a balanced approach..
I don't care about competitive play, I want a creative immersive campaign and game design that leads itself to having fun with friends
There is COOP already
You can't shoehorn a mediocre RTS into a genre-defining esport. They have their priorities backward.
It's a nearly dead genre. The only people who play them have already been playing them for a long time for the most part. They know their audience and where that will bring people in.@@allanshpeley4284
Stormgate feels more Warcraft 4 than Starcraft 3 to me. Its still good to see new RTS games. Sound fx need to be meatier and punchier, the graphics definetely need to move up a notch even within this artstyle. Unit collision can be janky as fudge and some of the resources are hard to click unless youre a fucking expert at finding which pixel to click in old point and click adventure games. It has a lot of promise, but "Chill the game is in beta" often works out to getting the same looking game with some extra flavour added on top. Lets hope they go beyond that barrier by a wide margin.
The QWER global hotkeys and "auto-build" was the first thing I had issue with in the beta. QWER should be for skills or individual action. Any global hotkeys should be ZXCV Get rid of the global building hotkey altogether and make Z either select nearest idle worker, or select nearest resource gathering worker and auto open it's build menu. That way you can see what worker you have selected before building something and know where it will be moving from. XCV are fine for unit production and upgrade IMO. I didn't mind those freezing ng up general hotkeys with the exception of what command building my workers were being built at.
I wonder if the next generation spiritual successor to Stormgate will be designed in MS Paint.
it's interesting to hear your perspective as a longtime brood war player --- seeing how you're evaluating the necessity of certain "clunky" or difficult elements vs. the experience a modern player expects. i like the balance that stormgate has hit so far! can't wait to see what comes next
I'm a little sad the macro seems so traditional Blizzard, honestly. I played sc2 for many years (master league) and I ended up gravitating to AoE4, and while there are many divides between these categories of RTS games, for me the big one is macro complexity and diversity. I'd love to see a game with the starcraft style unit dynamics but more complex macro honestly.
The idea that you need a varying mix of resources, which depend on what you are trying to do, and these resources require you to fight over and invest into different areas of the map, really helps to reduce the concentration of value and raise the complexity of decision making for both players.
Raiding in SC2 was always bad, and this seen in part through the atrocious attempts to force it in through units like the oracle, widow mine drops, et cetera. The defences of the factions were asymmetric in a manner that constrained map design and led to what were typically strong, centralised positions in terms of eco.
By contrast, in age games it's absolutely possible and normal to be raiding at multiple positions on the map simultaneously while fighting more heightened engagements at another location over prospective resources that will be needed later. Chokepoints are much more scarce, but walls can be built, but also destroyed.
Different resources matter relatively more at different stages of the game, and depending on what you are trying to do. This means value is relative to application, not inherent to the resource. Food is infinite with a large farming economy lategame, but incredibly valuable in the early game where it requires going out on the map to hunt or gather berries, wood can seem very cheap, but it's a crucial resource and cutting new trees takes workers further and further from safety over time.
These are great dynamics, and resources are key to these games, macro is not just 'have more workers and translate it into more units', but 'have the right options at the right time to execute the right decisions'.
I played about a hundred games so far and I found a lot of things I dislike tbh...
- Maps are too small, which makes it very easy to scout and rush.
- Gold mines deplete a bit too fast, it makes it hard to play a defensive mid-game.
- Buildings are made of wet paper, again it's hard to play defensively and it makes the cheese strats too viable.
- Creep camps are dog water and have always been in every RTS. It limits the range of builds you can go for because you need to always be contesting camps.
- The factions are fundamentally imbalanced. Vanguard asks A LOT more skill from the player than Inf.
- Macro overall is lacking / too easy.
I actually really like the 20 minute compulsory tutorial idea
I will never play a game like that.
Overwatch is f2p, but to play comp, you have to win 50 games in quick play first.
As a game designer, compulsory tutorial is a big nono
lol, dont make me waste 20 minutes of my life.
Nah, just have a good campaign. and skirmish against bots.
I found Stormgate to be really fun. I think I played some 35 games or so and I am a little saddened I won’t be able to play it again until the next open beta. Early game cheese is especially strong which I like since I have a really hard time microing and playing strategically in long games.
Youll never get better if you dont try, just sticking to what you know.
My friend who moved last month, used to come.over every day and wed play 2v2 ladder.
I had played SC2 once in my life before, but had played sc1 a bit back in the day.
My friend used to be diamond, but he taught me and we started out in bronze, after a few months we finally got to diamond.
He never tried anything different, didnt try using new hotkeys, or using spell casters like ghosts, and he basically just stayed the same skill. We used to lose a lot because of my mistakes, and hed always be giving me tips on what i should have done, but it didnt take long for the roles to reverse.
Moral of the story, get out of your comfort zone.
Take my advice guys: Don't read the tweetch chat on this one.
Generally, his chat makes some hilarious trolling and banter that enhances the experience whilst RT malds but this is the only time I can say they're definitely being apes unironically that actually detracts from the video. Good takes RT, I'm excited for what FGS can improve on based on the Beta feedback. Hopefully they don't take it emotionally and personally and only take in the actual criticism facts.
i seriously doubt any twitch chat is ever worth reading
People come from far and wide to shit on Stormgate for some reason.
It's very strange.
Twitch chat was actually the best part of the video because they were iterating my exact thoughts, while Artosis wasn't. Game looks like starcraft from wish and could barely scratch the 5k viewers mark on twitch in a period when it was supposed to cause the most excitement. This game is irrefutably dead on arrival, I feel a bit bad for the guilable individuals that lost their money donating because of RTS nostalgia, but life tends to teach you lessons.
The only thing worse than the game is the cult of 50 or so stormgate evanghelist that run on all fours 24/7 on all social media to attempt to defend the game (ctrl-f for
@gitjiggybruh for example). My only hope is that they at least get paid for it.
its not just his chat tbh, lots of random sc2 players come to attack stormgate just because they're insecure sc2 will die
@@Broockle Maybe because it actually is kinda shit.
The gameplay and control has high potential, but the look needs a LOT of love. It's not good when the entire map ground looks like a blurry piece of spray painted cardboard, and the units and buildings look like plastic GI Joe playsets.
Stormgate definitely feels easy to pick up coming from SC2. I recently played some AOE2, after about 20 games I still had no clue what I was supposed to be doing. In my first Stormgate game I felt pretty clueless but by my 2nd game I felt like I had a decent idea of what was going on and the macro felt smooth.
Heroes limits splitting armies and trading army for economy through exp. But the war3 meta still has a lot of that these days.
Further, if exp is a resource then free units becomes way less of a problem, because they aren't really "free" anymore.
"I don't understand how people care about graphics, I just want to play" lol ok
I like ole Arty but that is a hard cope. The game looks like ass and everyone knows it.
He's a paid shill. What do you expect?
Stormgate is DOA. The sub-reddit thinks it's mid. There is ZERO innovation. The artstyle looks placeholder. The fact you shrug off the criticism around how the game looks is a massive red flag to me that you're either being paid to promote the game, or you have zero idea how RTS's become successful in the first place.
Art style drives readability, readability impacts accessibility, accessibility impacts sales. Comparing an RTS in 2024 to a chess board is just a weird take tbh. If the game is getting this much criticism this early, the game is never going to be as successful as FG wants it to. I have over 7,000 hours in SC2 and I desperately wanted SG to be a success, but how anyone can be excited after the beta is beyond me. The game looks/feels ancient, it's not readable, units have no distinctiveness, and this with the really poor sound design makes it not enjoyable to play.
You can disregard these criticisms all you want, but unless they're sorted, this is a dead game on release.
Exactly this.
The problem is that all content creators are pushing this game for selfish reasons. They want it to be successful so we can return to the good old days when RTS was huge and everyone in the industry was making money. It doesn't help that Artosis' buddy has a mom who's on the executive team at Frost Giant. I just wish these guys had the integrity to put all their personal interests aside and be honest about how bad this game really is.
Glad you talked about the maps, the interestingness of places like lost temple and knowing is it cross spawn is it close spawn, makes maps and early game very dynamic.
People are so used to the term ‘beta’ referring to a glorified trial released to market a game two weeks before release that stormgate being actual pre release software confused a lot of people
you need to look up what beta in game design refers to bro. You thinking of Alphas or even earlier
This is not a beta by nearly all metrics.
not even close.
You guys are right, but you'd think that the highly experienced developers at Frost Giant would know the difference between beta, alpha, pre-alpha, etc.
The art style looks flat, that's how you distinguish units on the battlefield that is why is important.
Not true, SC2 isnt flat
@@brandonkim7954 This is a Stormgate video buddy, no one cares about SC2
I'm still of the opinion that there should be more spells that do DOT instead of one big chunk, and the more powerful spells or abilities could be kept in check by higher mana costs and/or global cooldowns.
Watching chat fly by there are so many special people in Arty's chat
Dog have you heard the TTS?
I'll have you know that Artosis' chat is full of highly-regarded artistic people. Please give them the respect they deserve
Fuck yes 4 and 3 player maps in the 1v1 pool. Please.
Logged into SC2 to see how my UI looks there when testing Stormgate and I got to say it felt amazing handling units in SC2 after so many years of not playing. Stormgate felt a bit off after that, I still hope the PVE elements in the game are great to enjoy with friends at some point, but I've lost a bit of faith in it blowing up and having a big esports scene with an active community.
i mean SC2 had 7 years of development. Stormgate is basically still in alpha. They shouldnt have called this a beta
Coming across a review for the upcoming Multiversus game and somehow make me think of SG. They are both free-to-play game, have incredible success in the beta run (relatively for the case of SG), and start to monetize/selling stuff base on that. Then it took Multiversus a near 2 years from the beta to full launch, which make all the players support drop considerably. Hopefully SG arent falling into the same path, because they are not WB with their bottomless pocket.
Even if you only care about gameplay, art style and sound design do have an impact on gameplay when it comes to clarity of what's happening on your screen. It's also definitely important for marketing, which is important for the health of the game especially for a free to play game. Looking like a cheap mobile game is pretty bad for a PC game, a lot of people will just disregard it immediately off the rip because that art style on a f2p game comes with a lot of preconceptions about what kind of game it is, specifically being a messy p2w cash-grab. Going with a very basic art style to save money which you can then re-invest into the product to polish it in other ways is fine, but it's ruined by the fact that a lot of 'game devs' go with a really basic art style because they're trying to put out a minimally viable product to make a quick buck.
i hate how no one can have a nuanced opinion in a game, according to chat. if he says anything positive, chat starts scrolling with "arty is a sell-out for stormgate" or "tosis is now the master of propaganda for stormgate" and if you say something negative, "oh he just hate it because it's not starcraft" and "blizzard shill trying to take down the competition" ... jesus fucking christ people in comments and chat just go absolutely insano in every direction. my dudes some if it will be good, some of it will be bad, and you just have to decide if its for you or not. relax.
as far as the art style for me, and i totally understand that its a beta and things WILL change, there is a big disconnect with the style of the units (Mechs and demons) and the map tile sets (random forest). Again i understand that its a place holder and that its more about the maps layout and how units interact with the map but it was very jarring and definitly took me out of the game some.
All that being said i think some art decisions during the beta were good. Removing the huge pilars off the magmadons helped, the change to the saturation and readability of the units was much better, especially infernal v infernal.
As a player that is so very out of practice that doing the latter was pain i DID really enjoy doing the co-op stuff even if there wasnt really that much to do. I play RTS for the campaigns and the co-op and maybe beat my head againt the low ranks of the latter. I think there might be some balance issues still to be irons out but i thing the game is looking good.
Imo there are much more pressing matters about this game, a lot of the details you brought up are for me, a fellow RTS player, either nitpicks or foggy. Of course since you have a more competitive mindset maybe it is to be expected, but it is one of RTS's cardinal sin to try and catter to much to a competitive audience that made it less and less popular...
Glad you're enjoying it brother. I am as well!
I didn’t see anything revolutionary new about that game, and that what the developer talks made me to expect the most. The rest is not important if it’s just another the same old rts just wearing different skins.
The more I played the more I liked it.
Chat DOES need a sound effect.
I hope they got a LOT of useful info for future development because, from a players point of view, the game was in far too early a state to be released as an open beta. I feel like playing this current state of the game has made me less excited for it, which is something I'm sure they didn't want.
We just need someone to come in and develop another StarCraft game based on BW and 2. All of these other RTS games honestly suck. Maybe command and conquer back in the day was okay, but none of these other ones are visually appealing and make me want to make the switch.
I'm just hoping that StormGate will be "SC2 except with actual developers maintaining it instead of 1 intern"
I know you were just spitballing ideas, but wasn't it basically agreed through various games like WC3 and BW that the odd number of bases in say 3 player maps tends to make for the most interesting games? It naturally avoids the split map scenario, stale mate games, gives incentive to fight over center map territory. A lot of old maps have been updated into essentially 3 player versions, or add odd number of middle bases.
I know the game isn't even out yet, but we don't need to recreate the wheel. Mapmakers already have a good idea how to create good maps, and we shouldn't need to start at the basics.
It's not just that the art style is shallow, it's that you can't believe these would ever be actual races fighting each other. It feels more like, "oh people like dogs here's a dog unit that's good right?". There's no illusion that this could be an actual military force from an actual civilization with history and so on.
You could say this doesn't matter at all for competitive play, but for normies like me I don't want to spend 100s of hours practicing something if it feels dumb.
This filters down into everything --- for example the reason the terran music is always great is because the terrans have an interesting vibe, they're high tech but they're also hicks. They're battle hardened but they're kinda classless. Even though they got the Command & Conquer guy (legend) to do the music for this, he has nothing to work with. The music has got to be generic f2p because the starting lore is generic f2p.
Stormgate has to compete not against how for example Sc2 was on Launch, but how it is now. And right now, it just so far off for me
Indeed, the game is still under development. Of course we have to consider that Frost Giant is not Blizzard, they don’t have the resources to create a game from scratch without “asking for money” to the community (Kickstarter). I think the game is good enough to play (the beta), and it will continue improving
Dude, they raised $35M from investors. They also have ex blizzard devs and artists. There's zero excuse for such a bad looking game other than them trying to secure a few more years of well paid work.
@@allanshpeley4284 I wish it would be that simple my friend, but it is not
My thoughts after 3 games: meh, this is concerning. This might be another Mighty No 9 fiasco.
Update: About 20 more games in, it felt good. I'm excited again.
that game is OK as it currently is. not even close to as good as SC2 is even with its flaws.
graphics are bad considering it came out 14 years after sc2.
units are boring. not that many abilities, not many new innovative mechanics.
alot of stuff feels like repackaged SC2. shroud = creep, exo = marine, atlas = tank, bob = scv.
has potential but not blown away at all.
Yep it's very blah so far in terms of graphics, art, and gameplay. I'm just not seeing anything to be excited about so far.
Having played as and against it for a while now, I do feel the way to solve Vanguards Dog worker harass would be to either upgrade lock their ability to attack, or just reduce the overall damage they dish out. They should be used as a scouting map control unit, not a one size fits all worker harass unit.
I want to see really transformative casters in this game. Look at Brood War.
High Templar: HUGE VALUE if used skillfully. Psi storm groups of enemies.
Defiler: IMMENSE VALUE (too much, honestly.) Dark swarm to cover units on their approach.
Science Vessel: The least amazing but, still a very great caster to have. Irradiate high value zerg units, defense matrix troops at the front for tankiness, or EMP a protoss army's shields.
Casters that can be powerful, but on their own they can't do anything.
Now what does the Skyrider (might've gotten name wrong, the science vessel thing) do for Vanguard?
Shoots a missile that slows guys and reduces vision.
... Ehhhh... Kinda neat I guess but, I want something cooler to happen.
Give us casters with CRAZY spells!
19:43 Gosh, YES...
When you select a bunch of workers and go "z build, z build, z build" you expect to get 3 workers going to make 3 buildings. That's what intuition tells you, because that's what you WANT.
Instead, you get 3 workers running to make the last structure in that chain...
Not at all what we want or expect to happen.
I played it for like 10 games and it didn't capture me at all
Agree, 2player maps only made SC2 less interesting. And expand first nonsense should be a gamble on a big map only. Or never viable due to some mechanic/cost to buildings vs units.
2:16 I understand why you and tasteless have those opinions about the art style, I just don’t agree with them. And that’s fine.
For me, stuff like the graphics, and the setting are one of the last things that matter, but they do matter at some level to me, because they are immersive or not.
When I look at the art style of the game in conjunction with entities in the game, such as the primary resource, you start mining, and then you have creature camps, I immediately think of Warcraft three, and then I secondarily think of like League of Legends, and Dota… And that’s what the game looks like to me before it looks like something like age of empires or star craft. It’s like bright and it’s cartoony and it’s green and it’s gold. Is that a good or a bad thing? I don’t know. I don’t particularly think I care for it. I much prefer StarCraft. I like the idea that star craft depict of the conflict over the universe between these superpowered races. In a way, it’s more believable because it’s more gritty a lot of the time. Not always, just a lot of the time. That does matter at some level to me.
And that was my visceral gut reaction to it, no thought initially, but just logically thinking through that impression now.
Hope to god the third faction combine fantasy and science fiction. Because I don’t like how the Infernals are only Fantasy and the Vangaurd are only Sci-Fi. Hate to compare it to 40k, but that setting knows how to combine Science Fiction and Fantasy. Also I hope they ad more remanents of the old world. I get the point that it’s post post apocalypse, but so far it’s just green hills.
regaring whether or not the art style thing is a vocal minority - I think a lot of people are sc2 fans and stormgate art is currently just sc2 art but worse.
not necessarily the worst standalone but perhaps invites unwilling comparisons
Definitely has potential! It's more of an open alpha as I can see it's a veryyyy early build
"Kinda easy to pick up if you played Blizzard games." Because there was absolutely 0 difference in the beta gameplay compared to that titles what-so-ever.
I think Artosis' take on the game overall is on point. The game is interesting atm and is not far from being really interesting with some ajustments
15:15 hold up. While Artosis is on point about games like StarCraft, there is another branch of RTS that started with Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen in 1993. It's more of an RTS-RPG (some people say SRPG or Strategy-RPG, but they are deluded Fire Emblem fans). In spite of being over 30 years old, the genre is very unexplored, especially in terms of multiplayer. The great thing about the strategy in these kinds of games is more about decision-making with very slow moving units on a scale significantly zoomed out compared to the traditional RTS.
It gives me the same itches as something like SC2 without me having to practice actions, so instead I get to focus on decision making. I don't fault anyone for not knowing about these games because its biggest release hasn't even happened yet (March 8, Unicorn Overlord, go play the demo now) and for some godforsaken reason there will not be a PC release, but I'm just bringing attention to the fact that de emphasis on action and emphasis on decisions is in the RTS design space, in spite of Stormgate's adherence to the Command and Conquer Action RTS formula.
Again, Artosis is totally on point, and I can see the appeal of the Action RTS, which is why I love Company of Heroes so much, but this is a different branch of Real Time Strategy.
Every time I see a SG video on TH-cam I’m reminded that it SHOULD be sc3 and it’s torture.
dude like the art is extremely important lmfao
actions is the REAL governing resources
How do you do casting for over a decade and still have every other word be “uhhh” “uhhh” yeah “uhhh” “uhhh”
I had a ton of fun playing the beta I'm super stoked for the future of the game. I am worried about the free account spam. Toxicity in the ladder is a huge killjoy for me. But the bones so far felt great to me.
are you a dog ? Kappa