The Death of 10 Man Raiding (in World of Warcraft)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 ต.ค. 2021
- 10 man raiding had its first start in Karazhan back in the burning Crusade. It was an incredibly popular amount of people to bring to a raid, and it made Karazhan very accessible. Later on they kind of went with 25 man as the default, and then in wrath of the Lich King created 10 and 25 man versions of all raids. However the 25 man mode was always the real version, and the 10 man was just kind of playing second fiddle to the actual raiding.
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"but Blizzard just brushed off all their concerns"
Yeah, that seems to be a recurring thing with these devs.
@BazzbeTV Who was offended by Finkle Einhorn? That's right, a minority of people, and a minority of the devs themselves. I'm more concerned about the constant botching of the systems, the content, and the story.
@BazzbeTV yea minority, thats why the game is the most dead its been in its 16 years. brainlet take kekw
@BazzbeTV uhm in this particular context the VAST MAJORITY of players was doing 10 man Raiding. And Blizzard just killed that because they where too lazy to cater to both audiences.
What, do you guys not have phones?
@BazzbeTV I mean like...why not make both happy and have 10 man 25 man both? lol purposely cut content and you know id support the claim of "to focus on more content or things that will be improved with the spare manpower of not focusing on 10mans" but my dude if current wow is the "content" you get for gutting and cutting things the "minority" liked that man the game is lost lol.
I remember loving 10 man raids because it felt like you had a tight crew and really depended on your team players.
As a tank in 10 mans, I wanted the people who I had been working with diligently to gear up and knew I could trust them.
25 felt like a hodge-podge of a bunch of people.
Also… dont stand in fire people
Oh that is understandable!!
You can concentrate on less people and remember them more.
That's somewhat the opposite of the original 40-man raid idea. There would the point to have an army go at the enemy. But many people could just be AFK.
The more people there are the more you feel like you aren't contributing. It's all the same in the end but would you rather feel like you contributed 20% damage to the boss or 3% damage to the boss as a dps? I feel in 25 man raids people died to generic mechanics, you can't overcomplicate things with so many people participating so it's no wonder the devs wanted to cater to a higher number.
@@Goneth Higher number is jank. It killed any interest I had in raiding after just 1 expansion. It's basically 18-19 people waiting for 1 dumbass to not fuck up.
When there's only 10 of you, it's literally 2 Dungeon groups, it's easier to see who's falling behind & either help them/teach them or swap them off. 2/2/6 just sounds so much more manageable....
Stand in fire, dps higher.
? Am I remember this wrong? Many raids were FAR harder in 10 man heroic than 20l5 heroic. This is why many guilds did 25 man heroic for gear when they could. The problem with 10 man Heroics was that most fights were made for 25 Man and many mechanics were designed for having that many people. I remember Cata being a PRIME example of this.
To me it was just easier as someone who was never really in a populated guild it was just easier and faster to find 9 other players instead of 24
10 mans as the max size would arguably bring me back to retail. I’d enjoy a challenging content with some close friends.
I'd rather see 10 man mythic. It would give me and a few friends a reason to make a guild and find a few people to join in.
20 people is just so much. Especially when you provide flasks and feasts and Scrolls. Holy hell. 10 man would be a dream.
Honestly same here.
Exactly how I feel. Told my twin bro and irl friend who still play I’m done with wow unless 10 man becomes a challenging, sad we can’t play a game we all grew up with together, because I genuinely just do not enjoy it
@@tft_and_chill To bad "the government" couldn't force you to get an education.
Guess what, it still exists! Just because it isn't the meax raid size doesn't mean you can't do it... it's just that now you have more choice. The raid health changes automatically based on how many people are in the group.
Maybe if you played the game you'd fuckin know that
10 man raiding was the most fun I had playing the game, specifically 5.2 ToT. Had a great tight knit squad and it was always a good time.
Same here, raising ToT every week with my 10 man is my favorite wow memory
10 man raiding was amazing in cata. I don’t think it was a coincidence many guilds downsized to 10 during that era. Less players to have to organize and a smaller bench meant keeping a consistent roster was much easier to manage. The only downside to 10 man was overall less loot. The bosses were difficult for both raid sizes, with some bosses being easier on 25 and some easier on 10. I’d argue 10 was more difficult overall because one fuck up from a player in 10 man has a larger effect on the raid overall then 1 fuckup from 25. Having only 5 DPS instead of 6 is a much bigger damage % loss then having 17 DPS instead of 18 for example. Of course there are outliers like fights that require every player to do a mechanic, having less players = less opportunity for mistakes. I liked the uniqueness overall. When my guild progressed heroic rag 10 man when it was prenerf the dps check in phase 3 was absolutely absurd. In a 25 man raid it was possible to bring less healers and more damage and survive using raid cds to compensate. In 10 man you couldn’t solo heal the fight you needed atleast 2 healers so this meant we had to get creative. We would have our resto druid save his treeform CD and instead of using it to boost healing He would use it to pump buffed up wrath’s into the boss while I solo healed that phase. Creative solutions like this are why 10 man was so much more fun in my opinion. You really had to get creative with your solutions cus not every raid had 1 of every spec/class. You would sometimes have to develop your own strategy on the fly. Another example of 10 man being more difficult was spine of deathwing. The dps check on the tendon was insane. You pretty much had to stack arcane mages with the legendary staff to have a chance at killing it prenerf. This fight might have been the most heavily class stacked encounter for a very long time.
I even started my own guild and managed the raid for the first time ever without any prior experience. It was easier to communicate and get people ready and it was less stressful. I really enjoyed raid leading that group size.
I haven't cared about raiding since the removal of 10-man. Since then raiding has felt less personal and I haven't been able to connect with a group since the days of 10-man. It wasn't popular because it was "easier", it was popular because it was more intimate and you had better relationships with the 9 other players in your party.
Since WoD I'd go in each raid tier, pug AoTC then quit. I've tried connecting with raiding guilds but it's not the same, a lot of the raiding joy is gone.
Honest question, is it possible that you changed rather than just a number of people thing?
@@xe2014 Yeah he definitely changed, maybe he has issues socialising.
just play on moonguard they have good raiding guilds i would know they also have a pvp community yeah it still has the inn but its a really good server
@@VirtuousLiam Nope, no issues socializing. In current WoW you're a number, a person to fill a raid slot more than anything.
Sure the community has changed over time but it's ironically become even less social with the lock to 20 man mythic and larger raid sizes. Smaller teams were always more lively and personable, you knew all your members and spoke with them. Now days you recognize 2 or 3 members of the raid team and the rest are background noise. I've raided off and on in FF14 since the launch of ARR and have always left with a better raiding experience simply due to the difference in party size.
Hell even raiding in Destiny 2 with a party size of 6 has become more enjoyable to me than WoW. More communication, you get to know your team, etc.
@@flipboy420 Simply untrue I've been in several mythic and CE guilds and a lot of the guys know each other. The ones who don't are typically the ones who don't do other forms of content with the guild (m+ levelling, PVP, and social events outside of wow) It's 100% a social issue.
In the current state of wow, i dont see it as a bad thing to bring back 10 man mythic, in my realm is almost imposible to do mythic raiding with so many ppl quiting the game
and it would open up more players to a closer knit more helpful #endgame guilds of their own choosing
Or, at the very least, allow Mythic to be cross server.
Yup totally agree....I've never seen stormwind auction house so empty ever!
Too bad less traffic doesn't translate to less lag..fukin Blizzard 🤢
My guild went from 35 to 2 now
@@Solus5048 Ya what Is with that my lat runs around home 76ms world 103ms but after 5pm It craps out and I am unable get on
ACHTSUUUSHLY!!!
10 man raiding started in vanilla wow with Upper Blackrock Spire. And the initial early versions of scholo and strat which initially were 10mans too.
Ion's response boiled down to:
"Ah well we're not gonna give you any way of continuing what you like doing but please keep paying"
At this point he’s just an a-hole. Keeps raising the bar of entry and raises reward and grind gap between semi casual and top 1%. Meanwhile the population keeps dwindling.
Like I get the idea that it's hard to break bad news, and I honestly do think Ion did a decent job of it.
But wow that "slow computers" guy can fuck off, that's super uncalled for.
My favorite thing about 10man was you as a dps were a lot more important. If it was your job to sheep an add or kite an add or burst down an add you were important and needed. You had a specific job to do very similar to how tanks and healers feel. If you missed an interrupt or stun or didn’t de curse you pretty much guaranteed a wipe.
In 25 man or 40 man you could basically do just whatever. If you didn’t do something someone else probably did.
I really do miss 10 man raids
10 man raids felt more personal and cozy,where you had time to get to know your teammates cause of the lesser amount of personal managing...25s were ALWAYS a management shitshow and always felt robotized and sterile. Blizz made raiding overly complicated with introduction of 60 different difficulties and thats where IMO raiding died on a psychological level
Every Sunday morning your videos drop (Australia that’s why) and while I’m hungover I watch your videos they cure my boozy blues, thank you Hiru. ❤️
First weekend after lockdown? (Sydney)
As Hiru said, 10man mythic would require them to class homogenize to a point where a 10man could cover all the utility bases needed. However, Blizzard is also in a mode now where they will only get by with doing the absolute minimum work possible. So, I wouldn't expect 10man Mythic to ever become a thing.
Another perfect example how devs doesnt listen to the community.
It's called flex raid
I remember some things there blizzard listened to players and it was also hated. PvP templates for example.
And if I also rember correctly. The most forum threads back in the day was how unbalanced 10 man was from 25 and reverse.
Listening to the community is what made wow diminish in quality. All the people who complained about various things added up
you are the perfect example of a player who will find ANYTHING to whinge about
10 man mode was always what a guild could swing without having too much fuss, 25 man mode was always something you had to join another guild's raid to help
10 man myth raiding today would be cool. finding 19 more ppl with same dedication and time is kinda difficult nowadays
No it isn't not at all whatsoever
Haven’t played wow in years but still always enjoy your Wow videos
It’s the nostalgia!! Makes me want to reinstall
"it's gonna be a difficult adjustment to make" tons of us chose not to make the adjustment and just run old shit
I enjoyed 10 man raiding in ICC and MoP only because it was easier to form up and go. However, 25 man raiding always felt better because it was more epic, you had more tools in the raid, and it was easier to include more classes ie: If you were a ret pally, finding a 10 man group was hard.
Also less pressure on you since more people to correct your mistakes
@@alihorda Exactly, I always felt like 10-man mode was more interesting, since if you didn’t carry your weight, it was rarely difficult for your guild/raid group to find someone who WOULD. In addition, I lost count of the times during progression when one person would die and we would just wipe to save time, since without that player we wouldn’t be able to kill the boss.
Always thought it was weird from a thematic standpoint that a raid would only be 10 people. I didn't raid much for that 10 man era. I probably would've liked it from the standpoint of my performance mattering more in the raid, but in that case, I now have m+ to fill that need to "carry". I think Blizzard made a good decision to streamline the raid system and lean towards the larger team size.
@@Lizard1582 yea but they should have made that decision to streamline the raidsize like a decade ago.
@@mcdick1621 well wod is 7 years old now.
2 boxes of pizza for about 16 people?? Like one for me and one for the rest? I guess thats the reason Im not rich as Jeff Bezos. Also why im fat.
Hey, I said less than 16 people! More realistically you'd want like 8 people so everyone gets 2 slices.
Bezos would eat the pizzas alone and let the others fight for the boxes.
@@hirumaredx "More realistically you'd want like 2 people so everyone gets a whole pizza."
FTFY :^)
@@hirumaredx as someone who works as a Project teamlead.. i absolutely agree with the approach of Jeff Bezos. 8-10 people is a perfect size.
@@hirumaredx is there some sort of video game that allows 8 person raiding?
I Love Bllizard aka Ion Keeps Sayin Please bear with Us it's Good for you Yet it Becomes Trash More than Before
"If you're not having fun the way we expected you to have fun then something needs to be fixed."
The reason I play 10 man more than 25 man was because the internet connection in my country is so low that sometimes even in 10 man raid the game would lag.
My to
My guild does heroic AOTC and simply stops playing cause it's so damn hard to fill slots. So why not just make mythic flex as well?
No one complains that heroic is too hard with a non meta comps. Just make it flex so everyone can play. It'll instantly inject so much more content to play
Please no. Then you'd have guilds like mine kind of being forced to min max the amount of players and specific classes per boss. I'd just stop playing instantly because I don't want to spend my raid nights having to sit out some bosses because my class isn't as good and 10 people is the optimal way to go. You have flex HC and that is more than enough.
Just look at Sylvanas. If guilds could they would just bring 10 people because the fewer people the easier the fight. forcing over half the entire raid team to sit out of the final boss. And if they make bosses not like Sylvanas then you're just ruining potentially amazing boss phases like Sylvanas p3 because they need to be balanced for 10 to 20 people equally
because its impossible to balance, and youll be forced to min-max raid size anyway
@@FishAndKid you guys say this except that it already works with heroic teams. You pick a generic size that works for your guild and then raid using that and pug any roles you are short of.
@@frienderella It works in HC because HC is much easier. Any guild that actually wants to get CE would min max it to shit.
@@FishAndKid so min max it, but it would give other guilds a change which have a less than ideal setup to play together
ConsIdering the huge number of mythic guilds that have outright died this expac, I think it would be a great time to bring back 10 man mythic raiding, or even squash mythic to 15. Unless you are a top top top guild, it’s pretty much impossible to maintain a roster for 20 man. It really sucks blizz is killing their own game by thinking they know better than the players. Really hope Ion gets fired tbh.
I don't think 15 is good enough, the 20 man thing was the awkward squish itself, doing the awkward squish again doesn't fix it. Just give players 10 man mythic raiding, even if heroic and normal stays flex.
Ffxiv 8 man raiding made me more friends with 7 other folks than wow did with 19.
really hope you got fired from your Mcdonalds job too
@@vanyel_etc8695 The main problem with 10 man raiding coming back for mythic would be the same as it was during cata and mop. Which led to mythic's creation and how it is a fixed difficulty in terms of player size. It is extremely hard to create engaging bosses that can work for both 10 and 20 or more players. Certain bosses and gimmicks will favour one or the other. As we saw with Thok in SoO. 25 man mode had a far easier time doing the boss due to having access to more variety in healers and having more healers in general. Allowing groups to stay in phase 1 for far longer. Also since the phase 2 trigger required at least half of the group to be below 50% hp, it meant that for 25 man mode, you needed 13 or more players. As half of 25 is 12.5 and you can't have 0.5 of a player. 13 is the only side of 12.5 which is greater than 50%. Meanwhile on 10 man only 5 people needed to be below 50% hp at any point in time. Having the flexibility of requiring an extra player to meet the requirements for the trigger to work made Thok a joke on 25 man. While a pain for 10 man groups.
Another problem will come to class variety in general. Now class stacking still happened under 20 man mythics but it will be much more noticeable for 10 man groups. At the moment you need at least a warrior for attack power buff, a priest for stam buff, mage for intellect buff, monk for physical damage taken increase on enemies and finally a demon hunter for magic damage increase on enemies. That is 5 slots taken up. Meaning the remaining 5 will probably be the top performing classes. And if most of those are casters, you can remove the need for a warrior and monk for more of those classes. Also 10 man groups will encourage more individual responsibility mechanics. Since you have a tighter roster. Plus you might not have room for classes that can cheese or at least make certain mechanics manageable. At least with 20 man, blizzard can design fights assuming that a group has at least one of every class. Meaning they can add in those types of mechanics without forcing players to play classes they might not enjoy. As you have an extra pool of 10 players that might take up that role.
@@jordanread5829 then only make 10 man raiding, wow isn't big enough for 20 man raiding anyway it makes mythic extremely inaccessible
@@jordanread5829 also class stacking is the same issue regardless, but making mythic more accessible means casual players can raid lead for casual mythic groups that don't care about the meta.
I don't play retail, hate blizzard, but love wow. there's something really special to me about learning a ton about my favourite game, specifically about things in the past since I can put that knowledge to private servers. ty Hirumared :D
did you try any private servers?
@@viggecokarlittecola4655 I've tried Warmane, Elysium, I think I even had a Nostalrius account back when that was up that I didn't play much. Quite a few random vanilla and wotlk servers, but mostly I find enjoyment leveling in an empty one with my brothers or close friends inside of repacks.
This is so weird from a non-WoW player perspective. To me ten, or less, man raiding is the normal pure experience. Anything larger, if the Devs even design anything larger, are excercises in indulgence more about the spectacle than anything worth bragging about.
Part of it is due to unique buffs or utility that something provides, and fights being built around the assumption that you will have them. Also, having a certain number of a class or spec can allow you to easily deal with a difficult mechanic or ignore it altogether... so it becomes "mandatory" for players. A few examples from the Wrath of the Lich king expansion:
Buffs: two specs brought a particular buff that increased the chance to hit against a target (Shadow Priests and Balance Druids). Being hit capped is the biggest increase in damage until you reach that cap, and it makes it far easier to gear if everyone can plan for a bit less hit on their gear. A must have, however, you don't want to ideally have more than one of each since other specs did more damage but brought less/different buffs. Have two people who want to play Balance? Too bad, one of them has to re-roll. No one wants to play Balance? Too bad someone is forced to play something they don't want.
Another example, several specs provided a flat 3% damage increase for the entire raid (BM Hunter, Ret Paladin, Arcane Mage). BM Hunters didn't do enough damage to be considered viable, so you would never bring one. Mages start out as Arcane and switch over to fire when gear can support the spec (requires more hit and lots of crit to be viable)... so you don't want to rely on that since they scale incredibly into the final tier of raiding as fire. So you want exactly ONE Ret Paladin... they don't do as much damage as other melee classes such as Death Knights and Rogues, so provided you have the buffs and utility Paladins bring covered you don't want any more. Ret was a spec a lot of players liked, but it was hard to find a spot.
Utility: Paladins have a spell that TLDR prevents casters from being interrupted for a short time. A particular boss in the 2nd tier of raiding periodically does an interrupt (everyone has to stop casting and if they don't they can't cast for a few seconds). Having exactly four Paladins they can each use this ability one after the other to negate this; leading to A LOT more damage on the fight and making it easier to heal from bypassing an entire mechanic. The ideal comp has that ONE Ret I mentioned, a Paladin as one of your tanks (simply better than the other tanks), and two healing Paladins (they are the best single target healers by far for tanks and so having two is basically required). Things like this all lead to a set comp and fuck what you would like to actually play.
Certain specs were even left out. Elemental Shaman did less damage than other damage specs, but was balanced this way because it provided a large number of buffs to the party. The only problem? Your ideal comp including things that already provided those buffs or had a superior version of them. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. Warrior DPS has one viable spec... it is complete dog shit for the entire expansion until the final tier where they scale an insane amount and only one other spec can compete with them for top damage. In private servers, I've seen someone who wants to play Warrior DPS first roll a different melee class that did good damage at the start through the middle (like a Death Knight or Rogue) and then eventually make and level and gear up a Warrior to eventually take their spot.
So the whole thing is a shit show. On the one hand, you want unique classes that each have their own strengths and weaknesses, that bring unique buffs and utility... on the other hand this makes it insanely difficult to balance. On the one hand, people want to play a certain class or spec because it's what they want to do... on the other hand there are very few spots where you can fill with whatever you want (and they have to be one of the higher damaging specs if buffs are covered). Even ranged vs. melee DPS there are mechanics where it favors one or the other, so you have a set amount for each one.
So on top of all of this, when you try to take a size of 25 (where all the buffs and utility can be accounted for) down to 10 people, it forces a set comp even more and making it more difficult means people switching in and out characters to deal with specific fights. So sure, you can remove unique buffs to deal with that aspect, but everything else about utility is the spice that makes different classes fun to play. When they tried to give everyone similar utility it created homogenization of classes which players didn't like (although it made the PvP better and more balanced), and when they tried to remove most of it this made the game less fun to play, which players also didn't like. The larger raid sizes quickly become a logistical nightmare to manage (trust me, it quickly becomes an issue if you played the game), but if you don't design around all of the unique things classes can do every fight starts to feel the same. It's a real "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation.
If you think WoW raid sizes seem excessive, Everquest set a standard of up to 72 man raids, and WoW was mocked for "only" needing 40. Everquest has only recently decided to shrink raid sizes...to 42. But in EQ's case, raiding for the first several expansions was literally "let's all gang up, kick open the portal to a god's realm, and slay him," so massive groups at least made narrative sense.
WoW having 40 man raids at launch makes a lot more sense when you consider that, but I remember someone posting on an EQ forum "40 man raids? Do they not understand what MASSIVELY means?"
Raid sizes in newer MMOs have consistently shrunk since then, but smaller raid sizes in other MMOs have two major benefits.
1) Most MMOs pull smaller numbers than WoW, so large raids would force players to funnel into a pretty small pool of guilds, and 8-16 man raids allow smaller guilds to flourish
2) It's a niche WoW doesn't fill well, which becomes a big draw for people who don't like large raids.
It was STRANGE switching to FF14 and seeing that the Savage/Ultimate/Unreal difficulties were only added to 8 man content, and the 24 man raids were literally just narrative showpieces. It's an inverse of the WoW model, and while I love it, it did take quite a bit of getting used to.
@@kellynine7438 After getting to experience all of classic I will never again appreciate smaller raids. tbc 25 mans feels like an okay compromise but it really should've been the floor and flexed higher. The best use of flex is to allow a few people to miss raid when they have to.
@@naejimba this is exactly why I believe that classes should be more homogenous like the 5 class archetypes that ffxiv has. I far prefer that style than "everyone is unique, just like everybody else, which means we gotta take exactly 1 of every class except (insert meta here), we stack 6 of them!"
Doesn't feel nice to only be invited because of chaos brand. I parse orange and pink, I want to be invited because of that, not because of what I can offer to some other idiot
@@vanyel_etc8695 that isn't how the game works now or for the past 10 years.
"10 man started with Karazan in TBC"
UBRS: Am I joke to you?
Scholomance and Strathholme were 10-man dungeons early in Vanilla. UBRS was 15 if I recall. As Vanilla progressed, Scholo and Strath became 5-mans, along with LBRS. UBRS became 10, and maybe even 5. It's been roughly 16 years since I did that content live, though.
@@Fingolfin3423 You are right. I remember playing Scholo when it was 10 man. I also believe that Strat was 10 man too, but can't remember doing it at the beginning. UBRS was 15 starting out. I remember running UBRS when it was 15 man all the time in vanilla, then when it changed to 10 man.
UBRS was effectively a 5 man before BWL was even released
In my 10 man raids I knew everyone. I still keep contact with most people to this day from cataclysm, we became friends. In 20 man raids, you're just the person filling up the roster. (till I replace you for someone good)
🤓
Could you do a top 10 list on the most loved lore moments in WoW? Since I know you like to do top 10 lists with different choices that aren't the obvious ones all the time, it might help counter some of the negativity in WoW right now.
I like any moment that strongly calls back to Warcraft 3.
Well, if the devs don't seem to care at all about the negativity, why is it youtubers' job? I mean, I know their livelyhoods also somewhat depend on the game's health, and it sucks that Blizzard pulls the rug from under many content creators by ruining their game, but... I don't know what's a good solution tbh.
@@19Szabolcs91 I didn't really mean it as a big statement, it just might be a nice video?
I can not believe that wow dev said "or you can get slow computers and do 10 man heroic." That's literally just as bad as "you think you do but you dont" or "don't you guys have phones?" Honestly just disrespectful to their players and the amount of ignorance is unreal.
Maybe they don't know their players were very well?
It boggles my mind how often they took a popular thing and just ... got rid of it.
I had a similar feeling.
"Why?? Just... Why??"
Expecting 20 or 25 people to all be highly skilled and do content on release, that are adults with lives and jobs and personal relationships and whatever and have it all sync up to do content is so misaligned with reality it's stupid.
Just another reason why I prefer XIV's raiding style, 8 people in well planned and thought out encounters.
I take it you didn't care for 40-man raids, then?
@@0megacron This made me laugh, thank you. And no, I did not, but I also never played when 40 was a thing, joined during BC release.
@@ArcadiaP It's essentially why guilds use raid schedules, because you're right - getting 20 or 25 skilled players is a pain. Getting 40 skilled players gathered... now THAT took some planning.
@@0megacron Yeaaaah, I can't imagine.
8 man works well in xiv but low player count raids in wow are scuffed 99% of the time
Funny thing now is, 10 man heroic is way harder than doing it with like 20+ people. They just dont scale things properly for fewer people, It can be something that has to be soaked by 4 people on 10 man and like 5 on 25.
This...they don't want to do "flex" mythic because if you ever did flex SoO, you probably remember there was a "mathematically" perfect comp size for each boss (as in, "How many DPS can we use before they add another mechanic item?"). And yeah, I definitely remember 10M being loaded with jank. My team was 1 healer, 2 tanks (1 would off-spec to DPS a LOT), 1 DPS off-spec'd to heal, and then 6 curb-stomper DPS. It's almost impossible to balance 10-man raids...I mean, imagine trying to be a not-Venthyr paladin as a raid healer right now if there were 10M available?
I know it will never happen, but if they bring 10 man raiding back, i would INSTANTLY swap back to it
Yea, I mained shaman for a long time and was actually really happy when mages got timewarp because that meant I could play mage while still bringing that utility. :)
It's so weird that nobody who actually plays these classes cares about their little fuckin' utility. I'm a little bit different, 'cause I just like not having the sole responsibility of doing something like BLing (especially in a raid context), while other people like to have other classes they can swap to with that utility. Both are valid excuses, but it's so weird that nobody high up in Blizzard tells their fuckin' team that nobody cares about these restrictive, class-specific buffs. It's so regressive that they want to make classes appeal purely because "they have bloodlust" or "they have mystic touch" or "they have battle shout", not just remove those, or add scrolls, so that people can play.................
............y'know, THE CLASS THEY FIND FUN TO PLAY?
The whole philosophy behind a large majority of design decisions in this game are so unbelievably anti-fun and anti-keeping-people-playing-character-to-character that it's actually mind-blowing.
i loved raiding 10 man with my friends back in cata we all started around the same time and we filled almost our whole roster with RL friends and when we had school holidays we would raid the whole day and it was the most fun i had playing the game
Cata is the most underrated expansion.
10 mans definitely had more of a close-knit feel to it.
I'm on the 10 man nostalgia band wagon. The current population just isn't congruent to a healthy mythic raiding population. I used to mythic raid, but had done that for years and so got burned out and quit for a year. Joined a heroic guild with light aspirations to mythic raid but it's just not possible, we cannot get enough people and even if we did it wouldn't be consistent enough to progress. I think bringing back 10 mans in place of 20 man mythics is probably the best route to take next expansion, considering the participation rates.
Yo Hiru, I dont play wow anymore, but since I've spent so much time playing and being so invested in the franchise, I still enjoy your content. Keep up the work dude!
This is one of the best videos you have ever made. I learned a lot
After having done and help coordinate 40 player raids back in vanilla wow back before TBC came out and then getting to size that down to 10 was a freaking blessing! I wish they still had 10 man raids it made for a much tighter group and less headaches.
10 Man was perfect, even maybe 15 would have worked but 20, 25 players is just too much. I miss Heroes, such a good game
So I remember when they moved away from 40 man raids when TBC came out and people flipped about how selfish Blizzard was and how they were destroying guilds, then at 3:30 the issue is that by moving up for 10 to 20 is destroying guilds. Goes to show what really hurt Blizzard was not their decision, it was their refusal to stick with one decision and then build the game around it.
40 was a bad idea from the get go, coordinating 20 people is hard enough, 40 with current mechanics would be impossible.
25 and 10 was a lot more reasonable, but I think the flex system with 20 mythic seems to be better at this point (I do miss 10H though :/) . But hey, it was trial and error.
"...not their decision, but their refusal to stick with one decision"
Imagine using that logic on titanforging, Legiondaries, azerite gear, corruption, covenant systems, etc. Improving the game will always be a priority over sticking to a tradition no one bothered to change. Also, 40 to 25 was a good idea, else raiding is nigh unplayable.
@@Ryan-sn3uo Ah yes, hello Mr. Strawman, "no features should ever be iterated on" was _exactly_ the point I was making.
@@afernandez9579 I'm not defending 40 mans, they were a nightmare and had to be created in a way that allowed a huge chunk of the raid to be carried as long as they could stay out of the fire. But I distinctly remember a lot of people being upset at the move to 25 man raids with a common complaint being "now 15 of my friends can't come along"...but as we found, people got over that.
My comment was more about how over the last 17 years Blizzard has changed direction on this topic 4 or 5 times, which is like picking the scab all over again and just opens the same old wounds and results in the same complains despite being the exact opposite scenario.
i miss 10 man, as player from alliance, it is really hard to get 20 stable players for mythic, i was in few HC guilds which went little bit into mythic, and mythic progress always ended with several people just ending for that patch, so we barely killed three mythic bosses and then end
Thank you for the serotonin from your number 1 fan!
The death of 10 man raiding was the death of my interest in raiding - I simply didn't want a bigger group and everyone I played heroic with before either stopped, did easier raids or went to 20 man mythic. I tried 20 man mythic for a while, just no. Not my thing.
To be fair, I wouldn't fault the dev team for not wanting to keep balancing more modes - at the end of the day there is always someone from finances behind your back reminding you of costs and at this point I'm convinced the additional needed time was no longer supported by their budget (and I'm not necessarly talking about "can" but "want to" afford), hell, it could have meant spending time they didn't have without putting more strain on already overworked ppl /not having the manpower for it.
I'm sad it is no longer a thing, but who knows what the future will bring with all theses changes and drop of player base.
10 man litearlly still exists.
I think one of the main reasons for the 20 mythic change was that many MoP raids in special SoO had some hard balancing problems between 10 and 25 man.
For example the Immerseus stack mechanic in P1 could be completly ignored in 25 because no one had more then 2-3 stacks if everyone hit him 1-2 times. It was way more easy to spread the raid in the giant room with 25. In 10 man you needed to be extremly carefull to not get to many stacks because the amount of stacks you needed to remove was the same in 10 and 25. Spreading 10 man in the room was way more diffecult.
The third boss was free loot in 10 man because you needed to get way less people down in the other phase then in 25. So third was free loot for 10 people.
That was just some problems in two of the boss fights. So I'm happy they changed it because now they just can focus on balancing around 20 people and the "flex" nhc/hc they can balance on it's own. There are less abilitys and they are way more forgiving so you can balance them way easier then think about "oh but if we change that how does it affect the other raid groups that are 10/25?"
according to the comments apparently everyone did 10 man heroics, i wonder how many realise 10-30 man raids exist
I think there is an interesting thing to think about when you mentioned the difference between Nintendo and Blizzard on how one wants their game to be fun and the others to be competitive. Well... Nintendo wants smash to be fun... but the competitive side is still there, Blizzard wants Heroes to be competitive but it went to shit. The thing is that I feel competitive games were made competitive not by the dev, but by the community. They like the game, they have fun with it, and then they go and turn it into a competitive game, there's so many other games out there that want to be competitive but go so hard on it that the fun factor is not there and so... nobody wants to play it. Why would they even care about competing in a game they don't enjoy as much as so many others? I think that is a problem not just with blizzard but so many other games. Look at Street Fighter 5 as well, or Mortal Kombat 11, both games wanted to be esports, and while the competitive side is certainly there, most people cared more about previous versions of the games because they were more fun. A lot of players didn't care enough about SF 5 until Championship edition came out and they started having fun with weird and unique characters.
what I am saying here is, I think there's nothing wrong with wanting to design a competitive game, but the priority should be to make it fun, and after that, you can be as competitive as you want
agreed, pokemon kinda has the same thing too where it is really fun on its own and designed to be fun, not competitive. Yet the competitive scene is still hugely popular.
Oh do you mean final fantasy 14?
Also, making more fun characters for EotS doesn't detract from its ability to be competitive, and increases the amount of people playing it, so...bad move, I guess
@@roguebantha7324 yes but all these companies looking for the competitive scene are so worried about balance and those things that, making a boring and normal character is the best way for it not to be broken or underpowered, if everyone plays roughly the same, balance is easy to achieve... but the fun factor is thrown out the window
@@Griever49 It's not BAD to want a balance, but it's impossible to have it & still provide unique characters. You CAN bring them closer to OP characters, but if they are simpler to play, they should never be better.
That's why in competitive setting, there must be some sort of Ban List or Hero Rotation, make "Pros" actually learn THE GAME. How about "Niche Character Bracket" or "META Bracket" being two separate things? Possibilities are endless!
some bosses were harder with 10 man, than 25 man, since you had less off tanks, backup healers, combat rezes, party-wide cooldowns.
I think he's underselling how hard 10man was during MoP and even Cata. In fact some bosses were over tuned on 10man and actually harder than 25man.
lies, 25 man has always been more difficult
Best day of the week, chill with hiruma video
I remember doing Garrosh with 1 tank, no healer, 15 dps and 4 carries.
it would be really awesome if you made videos that concentrated on a single dungeon. then including information about all the bosses, quests, "important" trash mobs, secrets, lore, patch changes, easter eggs, etc. etc. that relate to each dungeon. One dungeon per video.
Find 20 man is almost impossible these days. even in a guild it is hard. i have been in guilds where we had to cooperate with another guild to compete in mythic. They killed the game because of esports
I wonder if its possible for WOW to have seperate 10-man raids instead of having 10-man version of 20-man raids since designing raids specifically for 10 man without the intention of designing for larger sizes sounds feasible. Final Fantasy XIV has a default 8-man raid with normal and extreme/savage(heroic/mythic) while their 24-man raid are entirely seperate which aounds way easier to balance if WOW copies that.
Designing for worlds first and the competitive scene is exactly why there’s this toxic min-max culture in the game…. I bet if they went towards more casual design there’d be a lot more positivity to the game
Yeah but people enjoy raids because they're difficult.. Most people don't raid for participation awards
@@Shylestyles if that was the case, why, as per this video, were the 10 man casual raids multiple times more popular than the more difficult ones?
@@TheFirefox516 because less people can do the more difficult ones lmfao
@@TheFirefox516 because it was easier to arrange a 10 man raid of good players than it was 25.. The difficulty of the content wasn't ever aimed at casuals, it was still tuned to be difficult.
Imo there is already a casual friendly difficulty LFR. There is arguably more toxicity in a casual form of content than there is in organized more difficult content. Funny that...
@@Shylestyles In my experience, LFR is toxic because too many players that do the higer end raids queue up for and do the LFR stuff just to "prove to the casuals how much better they are", instead of letting LFR be for those that can't/don't want to join regular raid groups. Those players are the ones that treat LFR like "real raids", and quit after 1 wipe, or vote to kick those that don't meet their standards, when many are just there to experience the content or see the raid and don't really care how many wipes it takes or who is doing what damage.
The "Two pizza team" always sounded wrong to me. I eat whole pizza for lunch, with knife and fork. I mean, two people team is nice, but still...
Deathwing was the last hero added to HotS before maintenance mode and he is sort of different like the others, as he cannot be healed. But I see your point.
Hogger was last and he functions as normal.
What's the name of that add-on that shows the cooldowns on a slider?
I always preferred smaller groups. More personal responsibility, the sense that what you do matters... and also much less lag.
In Vanilla MC and BWL I could have afk'd many fights. No wonder even today I prefer Mythic+, only problem is that it has the exact same dungeons for the whole expansions (with maybe adding one more dungeon in the final season), so not much learning and challenge after the first season, especially since they keep nerfing the difficulty anyway.
I raided my ass off when 10 mans were jammin, now, I'm very casual. If that feature would have never changed, I'd probably still be raiding today.
Make Mythic 20man until 1 full save after World first, after that let it autoscale like the rest of the difficulties. People competing get the chance to experience the tier even if not the first, rest of the playerbase has the chance to play Mythic however they please.
10man was better.
"they want there to be a hard mode to exist only for the most hardcore players" and yet over time they kept removing the most involved systems that only the most hardcore players were able to do, like old raid attunements.
attunements have no place in modern game, im so glad they removed it and never brought it back
its has nothing to do with hardcore community or skill, its just a waste of time and gatekeeping for no reason
Grinding out a rep isnt hardcore. Its just a time waste anyone can do.
attunements fucking suck, what this game needs is fun casual content propped up by hardcore content. Devs should look at FF14, 90% of the content that's released is targeted at casuals but it still manages to catch the attention of guys like Limit and Echo by releasing hard as fuck content, they can cater to both audiences by not focusing the entire end-game on it, while in Wow they release fucking Korthia which is a dead zone that the only point is to grind mindless artifacts to get sockets on your gear for 1% more dps
It's a shame I really don't like the anime aesthetic so I don't play it much because in terms of game design those guys blow the wow dev team out of the water
I have to ask as a non-WoW player, why does it even matter if 10 man wasn't being taken seriously? Who cares as long as people were having fun?
It's the dorkiest reason ever to knee cap your own population.
"These people are having fun in our game, but the wrong way!"
"Remove it."
"Sounds good."
Incredible how the "10-man was easier" tale is still around. From Cata onward, 10-man was ALWAYS harder than 25-man.
As someone who is bad at raids, it is much easier to find newer, more casual or less skilled players willing to raid with you when you only need 9 more. Pro players only get mad at me.
14:23 Did they actually make dancing with the crowd a boss battle gimmick? That's amazing :D
Yup, it is the council boss in Castle Nathria. Sadly not many people like this boss, because every other mechanic actually requires people to pay attention, so it is incredibly hard on pugs.
It's definitely one of the better fights in Castle Nathria, which itself is one of the few things in SL that's not bad.
@@19Szabolcs91 Yup, Hazzakostas is a great raid designer. Unfortunately, that is all he is good at.
That boss on mythic was 10 minutes long and incredibly disgustingly punishing. Broke many guilds, and though it didn't break mine, it made me want to scream into a pillow after every wipe. Progging phase 3 was a fucking nightmare what the fuck were they thinking
My guild runs between 10 and 15 people a night, but I could not imagine doing Sylvanas with more than that. To much movement, too much to go wrong.
that fight gets so much easier the more people you have
Saw someone say "10 man raids were a group of friends and 25 man raids were co-workers" and I honestly feel that. I miss wow, but it's gone for me.
Generally good video, but I disagree with a couple of points:
1. You didn't 1 heal Garrosh beacuse he was easy, you 1 healed because he was VERY tightly tuned on 10 man. Any raiding at the top level works the same, cut all healers you can for every encounter. Same thinking goes for 20 man, take Star Agur for example, it was 2 healed on 20 man, not because it was an easy fight, but because the DPS tuning was very tight.
2. You can have 20 man still be the main mode for world firsts, just make 10 man open up after 20 man WF race is over, that way noone needs to argue which mode is easier or harder, you can only do world first raiding in the 20 man format and that's that.
You can also work around things like MC/Portals etc, the main problem is always, 10 players will make fights where you manage space a lot easier.
Great video
Smaller raids = better raids.
End of 10man = start of WoW's end.... since the end of 10 man, wow went to its bottom
state your case. I'd argue it's a pretty irrelevant change in the grand scheme of things.
A ton of people complained about class homogenisation in MoP.
Personally i'd like to see them do "mini" raids 2-3 times per expansion that are 10-man only mythics. But I think that'd lead to a lot of drama in guilds, ngl.
Man I had fun playing Cho'Gall in Storm.
Too bad Blizz went for a market that already matured so players already invested tons of time in others and would br hesitant on switching over (among other issues).
Man, I miss 10 man raiding.
Back in cata I was young, playing on a shit server with a bad PC, I raided 10 man and loved every second of it.
In ICC I raided 3 days 25-mode and 2 days 10-mode, which was fun, but also exhausting. x)
10 man raids are easier to run when you don't own a $5k Alienware cutting edge tech computer. Back in the day I would try to run Oondasta and due to lag issues and my computer just getting jammed up with effects even at minimal settings, I could only get off 3 spells the entire fight.
Real talk, that's exactly why we needed 4 raids at the start to get it down 😂😂
That was nearly everyone, tbh... but Oondasta was initially WAY overtuned, and Blizz should’ve known better.
doesn’t matter even in a 20 man group and poor polish it runs bad on a super computer. and addons like dbm weakauras doesnt help the fps
Space on bosses always stays the same aswell, the area is the same size for 10 players as it was for 25 players. If you're stuck in an area and you need to keep 10 yards, 25 players need to react alot quicker and be on the ball, compared to a 10 man group who probably wouldn't have to move much if at all.
Your intro is mind blowing
Classic had a 10 man raid UBRS (which was 15 man first but later became 10 man). Cata 10/25 man raids what considered more difficult was always changable by the fight. For world first top guilds always changed it.
you know you changed when you see that red circle in 0:50 and think "HIRU GET OUT OF THERE"
10 man heroics are the only reason why I would consider playing Classic Cataclysm and Classic MoP.
Agreed except MoP, its homogenized garbage.
I would like for them to allow Mythic to become flex once Hall of Fame fills up just like how they allow cross realm raiding on Mythic. Just add a new meta-achievement for those who finish the raid on the intended 20 player size.
5:25
but really who cares if the top 0.X something guilds think that only 25man heroics are the real challenge compared to 10 man raids if it fucks with the "casual" but much larger heroic raider crowd that likes 10 man heroics?
Blizzard's devs seem to prefer the larger raids because "it's more epic and hardcore". They make the game for themselves rather than the players. See also: the removal of emotes and sexual puns.
Mages giving bloodlust? What the hell did i miss in ten years away? Do warriors cast shadow bolt now too?
10 mans were great because of the community you built with your raid team. You don't really get that same feeling with 20+
Something i find funny is that the 5 man Mythic+ mode is vastly more Popular then raiding these days. Some of my friends that never saw a raid from the inside regularly pushed at the top of the ladders in M+ because it was fun and it only required 5 people.
Blizzard will never bring 10-man raiding back. As you said, 20-man is what the competitive players and Blizzard want. It's sad, because 10-man was the most fun I ever had playing the game. I made lots of friends in 10-man, but I made very, very few in 20-man, even while getting CE multiple times. It's just hard to connect with people when there are so many voices. I would play again in a heartbeat if they said 10-man Mythic was coming back. But it won't.
10 man raiding started in vanilla. Was eliminated in late Vanilla other than UBRS
I went to one guild they only had two member in it guild plus me and 17 other pugs we did a raid and some of the players didn't have discord so they could not talk or hear so we wipe about three time and called it a night
that was before my lag was so bad I could play
Ian’s direction of WoW is what drove me away. His answer is so smug, and dishonest if you take into account the promised content before WoD.
Legion wasn’t successful because of Ian it was successful because of nostalgia.
Legion was successful because it was good. Good Lore, good content (Mythic+, Magetower and fun Raids). Mythic+ Dungeons being some of the most fun content.. 5 man doing hard content hmm feels like the less people required the more fun a majority of Players have.
@@Y0G0FU M+ drove me out of the game personally. M+ has the same problems Mythic raiding has, it is filled with assholes.
Legion was good because they sacrificed WoD for it
@@fatslapper49 yeah you are one of them
What are they doing at 14:25?
give 10 man raiding back for heroic/mythic. I'm ready to burn my soul again for retail.
With the LFR system, old guilds are suffering. Close to impossible to get players for a raid squad. And some of the fights are so out of tune with 10 people with a poor setup. Imo a 10 man mythic difficulty, could save some of the smaller guilds.
Aparently things can never be dumbed down enough.
"or you can just play really slow computer and play heroic" ....they have no shame do they? That is a rhethorical question, don't answer that, we all know the answer.
As a person who plays the elder scrolls online. Raids or trials as there called in eso are 12 man groups. Id like a 20-24 man raids in eso but I doubt I'd happen