Dear Sir, the explanation you wrote for this concert is extremely interesting and new to me, although I have been a Vivaldi lover (or, more properly, a Vivaldi addict) since 1980. Nevertheless, I am a little bit sorry to learn that one of my favorite solo passages in the whole Vivaldi's catalog is actually not fully "authentic". In any case, a huge "thank you" for your historical and musicological work. Finally, I would have some requests: could you please upload, if possible, RV 53, 118, 120, 143, 616, 618, 621? Best regards, Riccardo Aramini
@@serenissimus1678 You are most welcome. I should mention that the discovery of the borrowing is due to the violinist David Plantier, who first reported this in the liner notes of his recording of the Westhoff that I put up as a link in the description; this finding was discussed by Kees Vlaardingerbroek and Michael Talbot in "Studi vivaldiani 18" (2018), the official journal of the Istituto Italiano Antonio Vivaldi, of which the full text is available online (back to 2015) on the Fondazione Giorgio Cini website. Autograph manuscripts exist for five of the seven works you have mentioned, the two exceptions being the Violin sonata and the Stabat Mater.
@@DelVivaldi Thank you very much for your kind, fast and detailed reply. I really appreciate your precision, expertise, reliability and dedication. Just one more question: at the end, you mention a "Violin sonata": do you mean "Oboe Sonata", isn'it? As far as I know, RV 53 is for oboe, not violin. Best regards, Riccardo Aramini
Vivaldi, que elegante é este seu concerto! Como é maravilhosa a sua música! E como é bom que sua obra chegou a nós!... Os anjos o aplaudem! ☺👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻🎼🎵🎶🎻
I noticed that this concerto is realted to RV 332 before reading the vid description. Its awesome to know that there are people interested in Vivaldis legacy.
Appreciable David, no solamente en el legado de Vivaldi sino de Westhoff y mismo Pisendel; un parde músicos dejados de lado injustamente durante el periodo barroco pero, así las cosas en el arte.
I am always excited about notifications informing me that you have uploaded a video. It is by your channel that I find most pieces by Vivaldi I haven’t heard nowadays, but I’m still a teenager, so I suppose there’s much more for me to hear in the future.
@Del Vivaldi Interesting that you mention Opus 6, because some concerti from there - RV 239, 318 and 324, had always reminded me of the Dresden Concerti such as 240, 245, 323, 384 etc. Are they all related because of the time written, dedication to Pisendel or something else? RV 237 itself made a similar impression on me, and it is dedicated to Pisendel, while for example RV 242 which is also for Pisendel, sounds very different in my opinion. Anyway, it is an amazing concerto. It is shocking to find out about the borrowings! too bad it is indeed an unambitious piece.
I would assume that the similiarity is attributable to the period of composition, though it is not necessarily clear when this was. We can posit 1716/17 if we assume that the ‘earlier’ Dresden pieces, whether inscribed to Pisendel or not, were specially intended for him; this does not seem certain at all, although some probably were. In any case they seem, to me, more primitive than some other works known to date from this period: Le quattro stagioni, La tempesta di mare, and the piece you mentioned, RV 242 (Op. 8/7), to name only concertos. But perhaps they are specimens of Vivaldi’s more generic production of the 1710s.
"The long sections of bariolage (0:42 and 2:16) are derived from Johann Paul von Westhoff, Sonata no. 3 mvt 3 "Imitatione delle Campane" (Imitation of Bells), published in Dresden in 1694." NO, deceivingly similar, but NO: the harmony is different.
@@DelVivaldi I beg your pardon, but again NO and for two reasons. 1) bariolage is a technique Vivaldi and others in the Baroque period (especially musicians from Northern Italy, Austria and Germany) were very familiar with; 2) Vivaldi did not need to borrow it from Westhoff, for the harmony is different and so is the passage. So, to sum up, we are dealing with a different harmony and a widespread technique familiar to many in that period. At the very least you might say that Vivaldi's passage is "reminiscent" of Westhoff's, not that he copied from Westhoff, also because there is no evidence that Vivaldi knew the author at all.
@@stellario82 I agree that there are too many differences for it to be a "borrowing", but the idea of writing something that expands on Westhoff may well have come from Pisendel, to whom the piece is dedicated. If you know examples of bariolage use by Vivaldi before the presumed date of 1715/16, then your argument would be stronger. Regardless, there' s nothing "wrong" with Vivaldi borrowing interesting material. The fugues from the Gloria (Cum Santo Spiritu), La Senna Festeggiante and the Madrigalesco concerto are more blatant "raids", and seem to betray a compositional weakness. This does not.
@@mikegiacaman6755 Thanks for your reply. It is difficult to date Vivaldi's scores in general, so the request of providing examples of bariolage ante 1716 is almost a reductio ad absurdum. We can date the Pisendel's concerti and sonate from the title of the score and from historical accounts of Pisendel's journ to Venice in 1716-1717. However, bariolage is very common in Biber and other such authors of the late 1690. I am a bit curious about the Madrigalesco fugue for, while the gloria is taken from Ruggieri, and the trio of Gloria Patri from Lotti's "Alla tromba di Marte ", I always thought the Madrigalesco fugue was definitely Vivaldi 's, isn't it?
@@stellario82 I think it's considered (by Talbot and others) a borrowing from an unknown older Venetian composer, as with the similar segments in the Kyrie and Magnificat. The harmonies and counterpoint are simply too much unlike his style. Other suspected borrowings include the Propter Maniam from the Gloria, and even the fugue from Op. 3 No. 11/I (on account of the sudden shift from major to minor at the very end). Your initial point is well taken.
Westhoff deve ter sido um admirador de Vivaldi. É quase "quântico" o quanto um compositor se inspirava no material de outro e depois aquele nesse material inspirado.
On the origins of this earlier piece (by this channel's standards), please see the description. See below for sources.
Dear Sir,
the explanation you wrote for this concert is extremely interesting and new to me, although I have been a Vivaldi lover (or, more properly, a Vivaldi addict) since 1980. Nevertheless, I am a little bit sorry to learn that one of my favorite solo passages in the whole Vivaldi's catalog is actually not fully "authentic". In any case, a huge "thank you" for your historical and musicological work. Finally, I would have some requests: could you please upload, if possible, RV 53, 118, 120, 143, 616, 618, 621?
Best regards,
Riccardo Aramini
@@serenissimus1678 You are most welcome. I should mention that the discovery of the borrowing is due to the violinist David Plantier, who first reported this in the liner notes of his recording of the Westhoff that I put up as a link in the description; this finding was discussed by Kees Vlaardingerbroek and Michael Talbot in "Studi vivaldiani 18" (2018), the official journal of the Istituto Italiano Antonio Vivaldi, of which the full text is available online (back to 2015) on the Fondazione Giorgio Cini website.
Autograph manuscripts exist for five of the seven works you have mentioned, the two exceptions being the Violin sonata and the Stabat Mater.
@@DelVivaldi Thank you very much for your kind, fast and detailed reply. I really appreciate your precision, expertise, reliability and dedication. Just one more question: at the end, you mention a "Violin sonata": do you mean "Oboe Sonata", isn'it? As far as I know, RV 53 is for oboe, not violin.
Best regards,
Riccardo Aramini
@@serenissimus1678 Yes, oboe! Sorry for the confusion.
@@DelVivaldi No problem! Thank you.
Thanks so much. I have been waiting for this one!
Gracias por compartir esta belleza llevada al infinito. ¡Aleluya!
Vivaldi, que elegante é este seu concerto! Como é maravilhosa a sua música! E como é bom que sua obra chegou a nós!... Os anjos o aplaudem! ☺👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻🎼🎵🎶🎻
VIVA O PADRE RUIVO!VIVA VIVALDI HOJE E SEMPRE!
I noticed that this concerto is realted to RV 332 before reading the vid description. Its awesome to know that there are people interested in Vivaldis legacy.
Yes, I am one of these people interested in Vivaldi's legacy!
Yes, I am one of those who are interested in Vivaldi's legacy. I am Japanese.
Appreciable David, no solamente en el legado de Vivaldi sino de Westhoff y mismo Pisendel; un parde músicos dejados de lado injustamente durante el periodo barroco pero, así las cosas en el arte.
You all do a Great Work. Thank you very much!
Viva Vivaldi!
I am always excited about notifications informing me that you have uploaded a video. It is by your channel that I find most pieces by Vivaldi I haven’t heard nowadays, but I’m still a teenager, so I suppose there’s much more for me to hear in the future.
I started before you were born and some of them are still new to me.
Del Vivaldi The discovery of a new piece is a kind of euphoria unique to each!
I discovered Vivaldi in the 1960s.
Fuad Jada I was only born in 2003, so I suppose I have quite the journey set out for me here.
@@jaydenfung1 I wish you a long and successful journey!
This concerto is so unique! What a great catchy and skill! I already knew Vivaldi-Pisendel friendship and this is saying that all.
2:53 Vivaldi or Bach?
Vivaldi. Bach utilizou muito material de Vivaldi, conscientemente transcritos ou claramente inspirados no mestre veneziano.
It does remind me to bwv 1041 third movement
Hindun Indiyyi True!
I was thinking mainly of the register of the accompaniment, lower than usual for Vivaldi, but a lot like Bach in his concertos, if my ears serve.
¡¡BWV1041!!
Great work,outstanding piece,good recording
EXTRAORDINARAMENTE.VIVALDIANO
@Del Vivaldi
Interesting that you mention Opus 6, because some concerti from there - RV 239, 318 and 324, had always reminded me of the Dresden Concerti such as 240, 245, 323, 384 etc. Are they all related because of the time written, dedication to Pisendel or something else? RV 237 itself made a similar impression on me, and it is dedicated to Pisendel, while for example RV 242 which is also for Pisendel, sounds very different in my opinion.
Anyway, it is an amazing concerto. It is shocking to find out about the borrowings! too bad it is indeed an unambitious piece.
I would assume that the similiarity is attributable to the period of composition, though it is not necessarily clear when this was. We can posit 1716/17 if we assume that the ‘earlier’ Dresden pieces, whether inscribed to Pisendel or not, were specially intended for him; this does not seem certain at all, although some probably were. In any case they seem, to me, more primitive than some other works known to date from this period: Le quattro stagioni, La tempesta di mare, and the piece you mentioned, RV 242 (Op. 8/7), to name only concertos. But perhaps they are specimens of Vivaldi’s more generic production of the 1710s.
"The long sections of bariolage (0:42 and 2:16) are derived from Johann Paul von Westhoff, Sonata no. 3 mvt 3 "Imitatione delle Campane" (Imitation of Bells), published in Dresden in 1694." NO, deceivingly similar, but NO: the harmony is different.
Yes, he made some changes. Vivaldi rarely borrowed anything note for note.
@@DelVivaldi I beg your pardon, but again NO and for two reasons.
1) bariolage is a technique Vivaldi and others in the Baroque period (especially musicians from Northern Italy, Austria and Germany) were very familiar with;
2) Vivaldi did not need to borrow it from Westhoff, for the harmony is different and so is the passage.
So, to sum up, we are dealing with a different harmony and a widespread technique familiar to many in that period. At the very least you might say that Vivaldi's passage is "reminiscent" of Westhoff's, not that he copied from Westhoff, also because there is no evidence that Vivaldi knew the author at all.
@@stellario82 I agree that there are too many differences for it to be a "borrowing", but the idea of writing something that expands on Westhoff may well have come from Pisendel, to whom the piece is dedicated. If you know examples of bariolage use by Vivaldi before the presumed date of 1715/16, then your argument would be stronger. Regardless, there' s nothing "wrong" with Vivaldi borrowing interesting material. The fugues from the Gloria (Cum Santo Spiritu), La Senna Festeggiante and the Madrigalesco concerto are more blatant "raids", and seem to betray a compositional weakness. This does not.
@@mikegiacaman6755 Thanks for your reply. It is difficult to date Vivaldi's scores in general, so the request of providing examples of bariolage ante 1716 is almost a reductio ad absurdum. We can date the Pisendel's concerti and sonate from the title of the score and from historical accounts of Pisendel's journ to Venice in 1716-1717. However, bariolage is very common in Biber and other such authors of the late 1690.
I am a bit curious about the Madrigalesco fugue for, while the gloria is taken from Ruggieri, and the trio of Gloria Patri from Lotti's "Alla tromba di Marte ", I always thought the Madrigalesco fugue was definitely Vivaldi 's, isn't it?
@@stellario82 I think it's considered (by Talbot and others) a borrowing from an unknown older Venetian composer, as with the similar segments in the Kyrie and Magnificat. The harmonies and counterpoint are simply too much unlike his style. Other suspected borrowings include the Propter Maniam from the Gloria, and even the fugue from Op. 3 No. 11/I (on account of the sudden shift from major to minor at the very end).
Your initial point is well taken.
I really love the soloist’s ornamentation during the second movement.
Westhoff deve ter sido um admirador de Vivaldi. É quase "quântico" o quanto um compositor se inspirava no material de outro e depois aquele nesse material inspirado.
Hello, I think this piece is in D minor.
You're right. Now corrected, thanks!
Del Vivaldi My pleasure.