Key point mentioned at 11:47. What value hands would the villian have that don't try to get more money in on turn when the backdoor diamond comes in? Sets don't make much sense in this line nor does upfront jamming JT.
Getting more money in when the hero seems to be playing an overpair face up doesn't make much sense unless you are hugely deep. This entire hand comes down to how the villain makes that river shove and it sure seems like the old slam it in quickly amateur move. It's 1 3 in NY, it's not like levels of he knows that I know what the insta pot river slam means so I'm doing it with a set to fool him.
I haven't listened to the hand yet but at low stakes when someone takes a puzzling line that ends with an all in but they can have almost no value they have that tiny sliver of value only.
If villain was a better player and we didnt immediately identify him as a fish based on preflop i would say he can still have sets on the turn that dont raise because hero went with the big sizing and its so likely Hero has an overpair at that point. But from this player i would definitely expect a turn raise. The only possible value i could see him having on the river is JT, but like you said even that is very unlikely
@@OhCanadaMoose JTs is the most likely hand he can have. It's basically the intent thing that plays this way for value. My problem is what are the bluffs? 76d? Anything else? I have trouble finding a bluff besides that.
So as to the end of this hand, I don't really think there is a clear cut "correct" decision. If I lean one way or the other, it's towards a call. Most of that is MDF for me. I'm not sure what I could call with here if I muck KK. Especially since the way this hand played, villain never really has AA here. Therefore mucking KK is identical to mucking AA. As to what villain has, I think he could have JT, TT, A3 for value. I don't think this is ever 55 or 44. As to his bluffs, and this is a bit troubling, he does not seem to have many. 76, especially diamonds, jumps out. Maybe AKdd or AQdd. Seems like very few combos to me. What I did disagree with is Bart's assertion that villain should muck TT on the flop. That is too tight to me. Why not fold pre? Look at the configuration, that 3rd player is right in between the opener & the 3 bettor and he is closing the action. That guy is going to double flat a ton here. And lots of flops, especially like the one we got, are going to be ripe for a C-bet from the pre-flop 3 bettor. Therefore I'm going to be forced to fold incredibly often because "there is a player behind me".
Do you mean people don't end up on the flop with TT because they will be monkey in the middle the whole hand and will fold pre? I would doubt anyone at 1/3 would muck pre because a passive flatter is behind them. Flop maybe. Turn they like 75% will to that size.
@@Tsiphon My point is that it's crazy to fold TT pre & I'm also not folding it because the flop has 1 over, esp a J, and there is a double flatter behind me. Now could TT fold turn? Sure, but it also might call. Therefore I don't think it's crazy for Villain to have TT on river.
Ive noticed a common thread from these callins. This line where villain snap shoves river has been a bluff every singlr time ive seen it. Heroes note about villain betting third or half pot w value is the absolute most important detail in my opinion though. I dont know about this villain being studied though going all the way back to his preflop fishiness.
Not a single person at these 1/3 games ever has 10/10 on the turn, and thinks, "man if i didnt have the 10 diamonds i would call, but my awesome GTO knowledge says i fold". They simply think one of two things, "this guy no bluff me off tens. i call with my big brain." OR "Jack higher than 10. He must have Jack. I fold". Bart gives WAY too much credit to people at this level.
No "studied" player would pull this line. I dont know the results but my guess is that if he was bluffing and villain was potstuck (sunk cost fallacy) or tilted.
If I was in Villian's spot and hit a set on the flop, I would take this line sometimes. I could see Pocket 10's or J 10 do this as well. It's not great play by any means. But this is 1/3. Low Stake players are do Goof things.
@barygol I'd rather be a "Goofy player" than completely predictable. Or a player who's Ego is tightly woven into their game. You sure don't want to go play outside your GTO charts or use abstarct thought, do you?.. You're probably the player that tells me how bad of a player I am as I drag the pot.
What makes this a call is our flop sizing. By keeping our opponent wide it's more likely that the turn improved him instead of the river. Players are incentivized to raise to protect their hands when we bet small, so there's a very good chance that Jack 10 is actually going to raise instead of call on a flop like this. The last thing our opponent wants to do is let us see a cheap turn with overcards and spike a better pair. Considering that the turn brought in a number of potential draws that our opponent could start chasing it stands to reason that his sudden and spastic river jam is a bluff from those draws that missed.
I feel like I have played in this NYC game before. If it’s the same one I’m thinking of, not only do they take time fees but they also take 10% up to $10 per hand to cover their high hand and bad beat bonuses which they don’t advertise. Since nothing is regulated, players don’t really know how much the bonus “rake” is really allocated towards their bonuses.
I have noticed that there are some players when deep stacked who will only jam when they have the nuts and others who will only jam as a bluff. The villain here sounds like the bluff variety. If he mixed in some value jams this spot would cave been much more difficult for the caller.
River bluff makes no sense (means: one cannot read it) - therefore FOLD. And never look back. If he shows AQo, fine...tap the table and say: nice hand, Sir! (And wait for him around the corner down the road. He'll be there sometime for sure ). Rationale: 1) too many hands LJ can have here: A3c, JJ, JT, 55, 44, 54s, J5s, all these hands would play the same. 2) H was all streets aggressor, so a strong hand supposed to shove river. 3) Unless bluff catcher, High pair rarely (2-3% of time) wins a river shove. 4) Sometimes a good player lays down a winning hand. (Only fish cannot be bluffed).
Not this dude trying to teach the rest of us… How in the fuck would he have J5 in a thee bet pot with a player to act behind, and also, 54s is never playing this line, only an idiot would slow play bottom two pair like this knowing it can be counterfeited very easily on the next two streets, also what is representing? I GUESS a set could play like this but if you have already called two streets with a big turn bet, why not check-raise river rather than donk jamming considering the latter could very easily scare off an overpair or Jack. Just makes no sense. Also just because there are plenty of better hands out there, it is important to consider which ones make sense, and the only hand that makes sense to me is JTs, but even still, the donk jam just seems to bizarre, the only rationale is that villain thought hero was betting with a jack and was afraid he’d check back river and so just tried to look bluffy hoping an AJ or overpair calls
I think this is almost never a bluff. Feels like a set or better. When you double-barrel (big on turn) you are repping a strong hand. It appears that villain is ensuring it doesn't go check/check on river.
Paused after villain river bet. This to me feels like someone sandbagged J's on a safe board. The chat said 10's, but I don't see 10's calling twice with middle pair on a 3bet pot after 2 decent sized barrels on flop and turn. There aren't any logical bluff here so this screams value bet.
I thought it was a call as well. Well done caller. Rather than show my hand at the end, I would tell the villain to either put his cards in the muck or show his hand.
If V is a “reg” make his ass turn over his cards. Courtesy on the river is only extended to recs and whales when they verbally surrender. I catch some reg trying to run me over on the river damn right I want his hand exposed. That’s how the game works, V wants to muck, I get to muck.
@@Divinevert Rules lawyer? 😆 I’d rather make enemies than friends in a cash game. You want to show obedience to a reg that tried to blast you off a 1k+ pot that’s your business. No judgement on your beta behavior, just noted.
My take was that it's ok to fold or call here. But if my decision was to bet 1300 on win-loss or on villain turning over AA, that would be easy. I'd snap on villain NOT turning over AA for 1300.
I was tanking..than tanking...tanking ..moving around. Want the reveal? There wasn't one. Sorry to say but what a lame video. There's nothing wrong w waiting to see what the villain has, esp a reg btw, if it gives you info. You called him. I don't get how Bart is so anti waiting for a reveal. If we play for a living, it's info worth $$. If someone calls me I show right away. I actually hate it when people don't want to show their hand and it holds up the game.
Key point mentioned at 11:47. What value hands would the villian have that don't try to get more money in on turn when the backdoor diamond comes in? Sets don't make much sense in this line nor does upfront jamming JT.
Getting more money in when the hero seems to be playing an overpair face up doesn't make much sense unless you are hugely deep. This entire hand comes down to how the villain makes that river shove and it sure seems like the old slam it in quickly amateur move. It's 1 3 in NY, it's not like levels of he knows that I know what the insta pot river slam means so I'm doing it with a set to fool him.
I haven't listened to the hand yet but at low stakes when someone takes a puzzling line that ends with an all in but they can have almost no value they have that tiny sliver of value only.
Sticky TT could play this way, but again likely CR river. Smells like 67
If villain was a better player and we didnt immediately identify him as a fish based on preflop i would say he can still have sets on the turn that dont raise because hero went with the big sizing and its so likely Hero has an overpair at that point. But from this player i would definitely expect a turn raise. The only possible value i could see him having on the river is JT, but like you said even that is very unlikely
@@OhCanadaMoose JTs is the most likely hand he can have. It's basically the intent thing that plays this way for value. My problem is what are the bluffs? 76d? Anything else? I have trouble finding a bluff besides that.
If this guy loses this hand he never calls in.
Probably true, but I thought it was an interesting hand. Especially since I've found a few recent ones kind of boring.
Stop spoiling the hand in the title Bart!! lol love ya 😂
Congratulations on hitting 100K subscriptions!
CAP their no rake is 10% to 10 for 'bad beat' in addition to the 14 per hour
Caller wants MAJOR APPROVAL !! Your amazing
So as to the end of this hand, I don't really think there is a clear cut "correct" decision. If I lean one way or the other, it's towards a call. Most of that is MDF for me. I'm not sure what I could call with here if I muck KK. Especially since the way this hand played, villain never really has AA here. Therefore mucking KK is identical to mucking AA.
As to what villain has, I think he could have JT, TT, A3 for value. I don't think this is ever 55 or 44. As to his bluffs, and this is a bit troubling, he does not seem to have many. 76, especially diamonds, jumps out. Maybe AKdd or AQdd. Seems like very few combos to me.
What I did disagree with is Bart's assertion that villain should muck TT on the flop. That is too tight to me. Why not fold pre? Look at the configuration, that 3rd player is right in between the opener & the 3 bettor and he is closing the action. That guy is going to double flat a ton here. And lots of flops, especially like the one we got, are going to be ripe for a C-bet from the pre-flop 3 bettor. Therefore I'm going to be forced to fold incredibly often because "there is a player behind me".
Do you mean people don't end up on the flop with TT because they will be monkey in the middle the whole hand and will fold pre? I would doubt anyone at 1/3 would muck pre because a passive flatter is behind them. Flop maybe. Turn they like 75% will to that size.
@@Tsiphon My point is that it's crazy to fold TT pre & I'm also not folding it because the flop has 1 over, esp a J, and there is a double flatter behind me. Now could TT fold turn? Sure, but it also might call. Therefore I don't think it's crazy for Villain to have TT on river.
Ive noticed a common thread from these callins. This line where villain snap shoves river has been a bluff every singlr time ive seen it. Heroes note about villain betting third or half pot w value is the absolute most important detail in my opinion though. I dont know about this villain being studied though going all the way back to his preflop fishiness.
I’d love to learn more details about that game. Didn’t think there were any time games in NYC
there are a lotta time games in nyc
@@bobby__conroy could you refer me to a few?
Not a single person at these 1/3 games ever has 10/10 on the turn, and thinks, "man if i didnt have the 10 diamonds i would call, but my awesome GTO knowledge says i fold".
They simply think one of two things, "this guy no bluff me off tens. i call with my big brain." OR "Jack higher than 10. He must have Jack. I fold".
Bart gives WAY too much credit to people at this level.
No "studied" player would pull this line. I dont know the results but my guess is that if he was bluffing and villain was potstuck (sunk cost fallacy) or tilted.
If I was in Villian's spot and hit a set on the flop, I would take this line sometimes. I could see Pocket 10's or J 10 do this as well. It's not great play by any means. But this is 1/3. Low Stake players are do Goof things.
@@danielmeuler2877you are sb example of the goofy players
@barygol I'd rather be a "Goofy player" than completely predictable. Or a player who's Ego is tightly woven into their game. You sure don't want to go play outside your GTO charts or use abstarct thought, do you?.. You're probably the player that tells me how bad of a player I am as I drag the pot.
@@danielmeuler2877 sure bro, sure.
What makes this a call is our flop sizing. By keeping our opponent wide it's more likely that the turn improved him instead of the river. Players are incentivized to raise to protect their hands when we bet small, so there's a very good chance that Jack 10 is actually going to raise instead of call on a flop like this. The last thing our opponent wants to do is let us see a cheap turn with overcards and spike a better pair. Considering that the turn brought in a number of potential draws that our opponent could start chasing it stands to reason that his sudden and spastic river jam is a bluff from those draws that missed.
I feel like I have played in this NYC game before. If it’s the same one I’m thinking of, not only do they take time fees but they also take 10% up to $10 per hand to cover their high hand and bad beat bonuses which they don’t advertise. Since nothing is regulated, players don’t really know how much the bonus “rake” is really allocated towards their bonuses.
Congrats Bart and Co on 100k subs. Well deserved.
For NYC that time structure is a great deal. Most games in thr city are 10% uncapped or $100 max
I have noticed that there are some players when deep stacked who will only jam when they have the nuts and others who will only jam as a bluff. The villain here sounds like the bluff variety. If he mixed in some value jams this spot would cave been much more difficult for the caller.
Tough spot. Well played. Good call.
River bluff makes no sense (means: one cannot read it) - therefore FOLD. And never look back. If he shows AQo, fine...tap the table and say: nice hand, Sir! (And wait for him around the corner down the road. He'll be there sometime for sure ).
Rationale:
1) too many hands LJ can have here: A3c, JJ, JT, 55, 44, 54s, J5s, all these hands would play the same.
2) H was all streets aggressor, so a strong hand supposed to shove river.
3) Unless bluff catcher, High pair rarely (2-3% of time) wins a river shove.
4) Sometimes a good player lays down a winning hand. (Only fish cannot be bluffed).
I think 55, 44, 54 and certainly J5 are all laughable
Jack 5 suited calling a three bet pre?
@@sambortnick6836 that's not uncommon in small stakes. Player's dependant, of course. and seems this one is capable of anything. Maybe he had Q5s?
Not this dude trying to teach the rest of us…
How in the fuck would he have J5 in a thee bet pot with a player to act behind, and also, 54s is never playing this line, only an idiot would slow play bottom two pair like this knowing it can be counterfeited very easily on the next two streets, also what is representing? I GUESS a set could play like this but if you have already called two streets with a big turn bet, why not check-raise river rather than donk jamming considering the latter could very easily scare off an overpair or Jack. Just makes no sense. Also just because there are plenty of better hands out there, it is important to consider which ones make sense, and the only hand that makes sense to me is JTs, but even still, the donk jam just seems to bizarre, the only rationale is that villain thought hero was betting with a jack and was afraid he’d check back river and so just tried to look bluffy hoping an AJ or overpair calls
@@gxfr795 speaking on behalf of _the rest of us_
I think this is almost never a bluff. Feels like a set or better. When you double-barrel (big on turn) you are repping a strong hand. It appears that villain is ensuring it doesn't go check/check on river.
Paused after villain river bet. This to me feels like someone sandbagged J's on a safe board. The chat said 10's, but I don't see 10's calling twice with middle pair on a 3bet pot after 2 decent sized barrels on flop and turn. There aren't any logical bluff here so this screams value bet.
positive! H made a fishy call....and then rushed to call in to let the world know about his win.
I thought Bart's take that TT does not get here was one of his worst.
This dude loves the sound of his own voice.
Which dude?
Maybe you like the sound of his voice
Would have to enjoy talking to do it
The caller. Not Bart. And nothing major against the caller, he just went on somewhat of a soliloquy about the river call.
Once Bart mentioned not to reveal the result, it kinda made him tell the story differently.
I would flick in call solely based off the turn action if villain is a solid player. If he has j10 he wins so be it.
3:38 you think at 50BB tournaments are just push fold charts?
Enjoyed this 1 it was a hard call to make but a good call in the end 😅
I wish I could get invited to this game! (A New Yorker always looking for a fun game.)
be interesting to know if the deck is dealer or machined shuffled....
deckmate 2
Lol @ this caller.
Ok if this is the place in China Town I went there this summer when I was working in NY.
I don't mind the non reveals...its the reality of poker
I thought it was a call as well. Well done caller. Rather than show my hand at the end, I would tell the villain to either put his cards in the muck or show his hand.
That line is never a bluff from a recreational but rarely value from a "studied" or for profit player vs another winning player on a brick river imo.
AJ of diamonds makes sense.
I think villain put hero on AK and went for a bluff after clean run out.
After jam, I fold. suspect JJ or TT, maybe even A3
You get bluffed too easily
@@vecterpoker players are so full of themselves and it’s cringe af
No
Id jam J10 100% it's overpair all day.
This guy is painful to listen to
nycjagoff
Love how the caller kept the call moving.
Hey
AdQd missed river, open jam. Puts any J in a tough spot.
Caller sounds like one of those people that think live reads are more important than the action that has taken place in the hand
How can I submit a hand for consideration?
Bart, you look like you're about to start crying in the thumbnail, are you okay?
The guy is busy and sometimes you need to snap the thumbnail while engaged in a bathroom dump.
If V is a “reg” make his ass turn over his cards. Courtesy on the river is only extended to recs and whales when they verbally surrender. I catch some reg trying to run me over on the river damn right I want his hand exposed. That’s how the game works, V wants to muck, I get to muck.
Yeah, then watch him turn over a winner when he was going to muck and you lose the pot bec of your arrogance.
😂
There is no need to be the rules lawyer. That's a good way to make enemies and not get invited back to a private game.
@@ImDougie Rare scenario you describe, and even more rare that a “reg” would do it.
@@Divinevert Rules lawyer? 😆 I’d rather make enemies than friends in a cash game. You want to show obedience to a reg that tried to blast you off a 1k+ pot that’s your business. No judgement on your beta behavior, just noted.
55
8 minutes in and I think they guy flopped a set of 5's.... no idea if I'm right
guess I'm wrong, lol
Everyone is discounting a slow played Aces. Lot of noobs like to slow play pre and rip later streets with Aces.
My take was that it's ok to fold or call here. But if my decision was to bet 1300 on win-loss or on villain turning over AA, that would be easy. I'd snap on villain NOT turning over AA for 1300.
The caller sounds like Jamon.
I was tanking..than tanking...tanking ..moving around. Want the reveal? There wasn't one. Sorry to say but what a lame video. There's nothing wrong w waiting to see what the villain has, esp a reg btw, if it gives you info. You called him. I don't get how Bart is so anti waiting for a reveal. If we play for a living, it's info worth $$. If someone calls me I show right away. I actually hate it when people don't want to show their hand and it holds up the game.