No exciting bikes for entry level riders anymore 🥺
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 ก.ย. 2024
- Jake and I discuss the real lack of appealing quality product available at the entry and mid tier prices for cyclists. We reflect on groupsets that are almost a decade old and offer no upgrade path, and at prices that are almost on par with the next tiers up. It looks like a tough time to attract new riders to the sport and retain existing ones.
We reflect on the end of Campagnolo Veloce, the extremely outdated Shimano Tiagra and the heavy and overpriced SRAM Apex.
Well, for that dentist in mid-life crisis mode, an absurdly expensive bike is still a better coping mechanism than an even more absurdly expensive sports car. 😂😂
VAN RYSEL Road Bike EDR AF 105 is £1000 with R7000 groupset
Paying over 1K for a 10+ kg Road bike with Mech Disc Brakes and a Sora Groupset at most is just insane. The own industry has abismally risen the price of decent entry bikes in such a way that discards a lot of people, then they cry why sales have just been down and down and profits just cutting quarter over quarter. Totally ridiculous!!!
Sora is legit. Shift quality is great. The problem with stock mechanical brake setups is manufacturers always opt for the cheapest setups. If bikes came stock with decent calipers like BB5s or shimano RS305s, as well as high quality compressionless brake housing, then you wouldn’t here so many people bemoaning mechanical disc brakes. My favorite bike right now has Microshift sword 10 speed and Growtac mechanical calipers. Shifts incredibly and the brakes would not be out of place on a proper mtb setup. This is despite owning bikes with shimano 11 speed and hydraulic brakes.
@@thomasfitzgibbon1675 exactly my point, you can't buy a decent bike right out of a store unless you spend extra in whatever it is you want to make it decent. Still over 1k for a 10+ kg mech disc brake bike is not a goo entry point, the industry discourages people from those bikes to spend more on a decent bike or to go straight up to mid level which is very extremely expensive for someone that wants to start into the sport. Best value offerings I could see was some decent Triban or the entry level Van Rysel, they're willing to offer much more value for money than traditional manufacturers. Decathlon is killing it with them!
@@csarcpab yes the decathlon bikes are a good value proposition but I’m not a fan. I rode a customers triban with 105 recently. The frame felt extremely flexy and the welds look shotty. Ive also seen the hubs fail and axles break on triban bikes 2 times this year, and I’m in the US so the brand is very uncommon. Probably only seen 4 decathlon bikes total since January. They stock the bikes with good components but I don’t think the quality is there. That and the geometry of some of their smaller bikes is quite strange. The customers bike I rode was an extra small but had a stupid long top tube for the size. Compare that to a Giant contend, which by all measure is a very well engineered and manufactured entry level aluminum road frame that is comfortable, stiff, and has well thought out geometry for the entire size run.
@@thomasfitzgibbon1675 correct, you might still find a decent entry Giant but it will still cost you a considerable chunk of money for a starter rider.
@@csarcpab in europe, maybe. In Asia? No way. You could get component cheaper and better, as long that's asian brand. Shimano, Sensah, Ltwoo, TRP, Microshift for groupset.
Even polygon, Marin, are cheaper than triban in my country.
Ps: personally I dislike triban with their ugly welding and square tubing.
What are you guys talking about???? Entry level bikes are all bikes that cost 4 figures 🎉
Pre COVID a claris (2x8) all aluminium was around £400
That's entry level, not rubbish unbranded or tourney, but equally not 105 either
@@joehart3826 can still get a claris gravel bike around the £500 mark which is not too bad.
Entry level is 2nd hand , it always has been.
I was thinking the same. Mid tier, for me, is secondhand plus some new, in the sale, upgrades!
So high end bikes are new $500 Tribans and Entry level bikes are secondhand Roubaix's, Foils, TCRs, Madones etc.
Yes. 😊
Well it would depend on what level of competition you are inferring perhaps
I put together new bike with good components in 1987 for < 500 quid
it was 531 not 753 , but decent enough
unfortunately road cycling has been taken over by coperates since the plandemic , squeezing out the smaller guy ( like so many other sectors )
pleasing the shareholder is the only criteria
so of course they wan to sell you the most expensive nonsense going
Whatever became of the mid range Campag Potenza and Athena following Centaur?
2nd hand must be the way to go. I'm still tinkering with a 2010 Madone to keep it up to date. I can't get wider than 28mm tyres and I'm on rim brakes, butI can live with that. I'd need to spend £10k+ on a new road bike to get anything comparable.
Absolutely, and does it even have to be "up to date"?
As long as parts can be obtained, just because something is "old" doesn't mean it suddenly stops working.
Appreciate the thought to a point in the video of Tiagra 4700 being 8yrs old but it remains a decent, solid groupset...
The industry has dined out for decades on up-selling constantly "improving" products, usually with marginally tangible benefit.. and now its chickens have come home to roost.
We seem to have forgotten that enjoyment of cycling doesn't centre around constant consumption.
To be fair groupsets don't go bad like eggs. Sure there are more speeds but the effective range hasn't changed. Only the cost of replacements and need for more precise adjustments as tolerances decrease. Part of the problem is the constant hype train in the cycling industry to sell new shiny objects on a publishing schedule and frame (perfectly operational bikes and groupsets) as obsolete.
Oh for sure. I still think it’s important for a groupset to look and feel modern, and offer an upgrade and repair pathway for new riders. Thanks for watching.
Not really. 10 speed shimano was 11-28, stretching to 11-30 with 3rd party cassettes really isn’t the same as 10-36 with sram now or 11-34 with shimano.
@@MapdecVodcast Why? "Look and Feel"? Is this a biking channel or a fashion show channel? I didn't realize what's important is what's walking down the cat walk vs. the 150 miles I put in weekly.
@@simonlee7121 Do what?!? You can find plenty of Shimano XT 11-32, 11-34, 11-36 10-speed cassettes.
What I don't get is this fascination with 12 speed. Sure 105 12 speed is probably amazing, but it is still limited to 11-36 officially, which is the exact same as Tiagra 4700/4720. There is no additional range. Makes no sense. And actually, the 10 speed, or even the 9 speed stuff is more upgradable because 11-42 cassettes exist for them from Shimano which work with these derailleurs. Tiagra 4700 can easily accommodate an 11-42 at the back for outstanding gear range. But I guess you can't show off at the cafe
Are you seriously acting surprised that entry level bikes weigh in at 10 kg? Seriously?! That's what you get when you put disc brakes on them! What do you expect?! Heavier brakes, heavier wheels, heavier fork, heavier frame is what you get!!! Aluminum frames are almost not being further developed any more, because there is no money in them. Everyone wants carbon and everyone wants disc brakes, because the cycling industry and the marketing shills made people believe so. Aluminum frames suitable for disc brakes are necessarily heavier, so their natural disadvantage against carbon gets even worse. So thanks to disc brakes you get shittier bikes, at entry level especially, because the manufacturers save their lighter frames for the better bikes, of course. If you want a good and light (sub 9 kg) entry level bike, you are basically f***ed unless you buy decathlon or second hand. This is home made. Thank you cycling industry, thank you cycling media.
I love my steel bike but I get your poin, also 10+ kg is just fine, especially for people who also does bikepacking/commuting on the same bike. There is no point in sub 10kg if you are carrying several kg of gear
you dont need a bike lighter than 10kg
@@MW-ud8zp Sure, no-one "needs" anything. No-one needs an aero bike. No-one needs electronic shifting. No-one needs carbon bikes, bla, bla, bla. What definitely no-one needs is disc brakes on road bikes, especially on entry level bikes...
@@balrog687 Sure, also for gravel it's fine. But this is about road bikes. And when an entry level aluminum bike from 2004 weighs less than one from 2024 without the latter actually being significantly better, something is seriously wrong.
@@christianb.1028 Right on point!!! That's the new starting standard the industry offers, shitty mechanical disk brake heavy AF bikes for over 1K that is just insane!!! 9kg bikes for around 2 to 2,5k, mid level bikes which are in the 8kg range and they call that light those are the 5k bikes what in the actual fu*#$k!!! The only ones giving more value for money who are making somehow decent offering for what they charge that I've seen is Decathlon with the Triban and entry level Van Rysel, it's way much better than what the traditional manufacturers are offering. Then the industry complains why stock is high, sales are slow and profits are way down.
There are loads of amazing bikes for people starting out. They’re all second-hand, on eBay and marketplace, and have rim brakes. You can buy a 6.8kg Colnago for £2-3k. You can buy a brilliant 5-10 year old, top of the range bike for sub-£1k.
Not getting into that. Youth riders don’t want rim brakes in the same way they don’t want Clarks shoes. You’ll never convince a 15yo.
@@MapdecVodcast Well, isn't it the job of older, more experienced people to show young riders the right way? And it's not like a 15 year old has much choice. It's not like they're gonna buy the bike themselves if they don't get what they want...
If you are getting into bikes second hand is a minefield unless you have someone who knows what they are doing....although my 13 year old is currently riding a rim brake tarmac that I got for 6 bottles of wine😄
The industry wants to make money not help new riders, that's why Mapdec aren't interested in getting into that. At least they could be honest and say it's not part of their business model rather than talk the bs they do, that would be more honest and respectable.
@@andyedwards7800 there's nothing you can't learn from TH-cam videos. Speaking from experience here. Get a £20 rust bucket to practice on. That's the real entry level lol
Cube Attain C:62 Race, under 1500 quid carbon, 105 mech
Many more options from 760 quid for a 6061 Attain w/ 8 speed Claris
2025 attain really living up to its name. 105 on alu for 1300e, finally with 34mm clearance. if i didnt already have an attain id be all over it
It’s not desirable though, group rides have become like an African American rap video, all bling and with massive credit card debts!
@@krpajda Just buy a gravel bike. Then you can ride 40 mm tires! Minimum!
Never in stock though, right? My local cube dealer told me the reason is they can’t find enough groupsets. There are other German value brands btw. Radon R1 Aluminium Tiagra is under 1000 pounds. 105 is 1400 pounds
@@JeffSana30 Ironically an African won the green jersey in the world's biggest race on a Cube, making the brand more desirable to those that don't work in the industry.
Flashy bikes and equipment that one can barely afford have always been a thing, no need to bring race into it.
When someone asks me how much my bike is I tell them how much the base model price is not my actual bike. Because a non-cyclist would pass out hearing those numbers.
For real entry-level Decathlon seems to be pretty much the only choice. Second hand is the way to go for people who are already in cycling and want to upgrade without breaking the bank, but can be intimidating for a beginner. Maybe a serviced second hand bike from a bike shop. Off-the-peg mid-tier bikes terribly lack value. The only brand I would recommend is Origine. I recently specked one for a friend, for ~3000€ he got a carbon frame, 105 mechanical, good alu wheels (saved money and can be upgraded later), GP5000s and really nice aluminium finishing kit. The key thing is that we were able to spec everything on the bike, down to bar width, step length, seatpost offset, crank length, paint job and logo size.
The problem with bikes, particularly road bikes, is that they're a solved problem. The geometry for true road bikes hasn't changed significantly in fifteen years and mountain bikes have leveled out in the last three. We've had discs for a decade. What would make someone choose the new model? We're seeing added storage, integrated lights, one-generation proprietary designs, an extreme focus on aesthetics (headset routing) and aero (+2% at 30 MPH), plus-one sprocket gearing... but none of that is compelling. I'd argue Shimano has the same problem on the groupset level. They're an engineering company and they don't release something new unless it significantly improves on the old. How do you significantly improve 4700 while maintaining FD/RD and cable actuation?
My brother in law asked for a good entry level recommendation. I couldn't give him a solid answer.
Here am I an entry level cyclist, 5 months in, with a Merida ride 93 cf rim brake with miche 338 carbon wheels for £400 total used .
As for mid-range groupsets/gearing, I think the Microshift is underappreciated. The Box pretty good too, but I think they only do MTB stuff.
Yeah. Box is excellent actually. Only MTB and now quite hard to get in the UK.
I have always bought 2nd hand frames and groupsets. Rim brake only of course. Always buy new wheels. I have 4 groupsets stockpiled.
Decathlon is taking over the entry to mid level range market. And it looks like they have some interesting stuff about to come out
Shimano 105 and Tiagra: no recalls so the better choice. Giant has decent offerings with mechanical shifting. The frames have very good looks. In aluminium the all rounders are not that expensive, starting below 1000 euro's.
I'm 49, and completely disagree. My last road bike is an 80's roadie with Columbus tubing and full Campagnolo (downtube shifters). I recently bought my first modern road bike and MY GOD have road bikes changed! 11-speed mechanical 105 is absolutely unbelievable and will for sure last many more years. As a keen Mountain Biker I've also noticed quite a lot of MTB tech on new road bikes; thru-axles, hydraulic disc brakes, threadless headsets and compact frame geo with sloping top tubes just to name a few. IMHO there's so much choice now it's debilitating! What a time to be alive!
Cool. But what are your disagreeing with? 105 is a top tier groupset.
@@MapdecVodcast I disagree that there are "No exciting bikes for entry level riders anymore".
Cool. So what have you found out there that caught your eye?
@@ZenGarage Nothing today rides like an 80's steel road bike. Had an 1987 steel road bike up until 2017, it lacked the gearing, but it rode like a dream.
As a teenager in 1986, I bought a Trek racing bike. $560 or inflation adjusted about $1600 equivalent. This was a high quality bike and a good junior race bike. Good enough that a junior racer could win on it. True it was rim brake, friction shifters on the down tube. Just like every other similar racing bike at the time. This is a 10 kg bike not super light, not heavy either. We desperately need quality, reasonable priced mid range bikes. By the way that price was low... but there was a similar speced Bianchi for just a bit more.. but i couldn't afford the extra especially since the only real difference seemed to be a nicer paint job and a fancier name. Oh.. i still own and use this bike regularly.
Caad13, there are many on eBay at £1k-£1.5k. Or SL6 Tarmac. I would buy used frame and fit a new groupset.
Decathlon triban/Van rysel top bang for buck
I'm new to cycling but an older potential road rider and looking around it's tough especially not having the knowledge to buy secondhand bikes. It's definitely been an eye opener walking into big brand shops and looking online for somewhere to start with a 500-1k bike which is still a large investment for most including myself and especially younger riders. Interesting chat guys.
Can't expect the best for entry level. That's why it's entry-level. 8, 9, 10 speed it don't matter. 12 is wayyy too much gears. Just start riding is the point.
For sure. But it can be upto date and upgradable.
Cube accidentally leaks Shimano Cues for dropbar, I think we are in a era where gravel bike groupset finally fuse both mountain bike and road bike groupset.
Ltwoo, Sensah, TRP, and Wheeltop also has many unreleased development, but hinder by big 3 patent. Let's see how it will going
And your giving money to Communist government who kill their own.
I'm excited for it. That kind of stuff is right up my alley.
Flat Bar Sora groupset that's actually Supported.. I'm in
Isn't that Shimano's stated objective? Entry level goes Cues. They are just taking their time getting there on the road side. My guess is that the industry has such a huge backlog for inventory that Shimano refuses to release anything new. Why introduce a new entry level group set when you will be instantly undercut by your own higher level product that somebody needs to get out of their inventory? 2025-2026 it will come out. But will the delay allow the Chinese competitors to work out the bugs in *their* offerings? I won't be buying Shimano stock any time soon...
@@urouroniwa yep, that's correct, from my friend who works in shimano factory in Batam, the only reason shimano release cues so late because there is still plenty 10-11 speed road/gravel groupset laying around waiting to be sold.
I don't know the market trends in Europe, but it's a little different in California. So many used bikes are for sale on FB Marketplace or Craigslist that it doesn't make sense to buy new. Mtb's are not selling. Instead folks are buying e-mtb's. Only bike racers, the wealthy and aficionados are buying high end bikes. Even the kids want e-bikes. Some entry level bikes are selling, but that's about it. It's going to take time for bike shops to wait out this pandemic hang over. In the meantime, repairing bikes will continue to be a primary source of revenue.
I think I’m missing what the criteria is for “entry level”. I can see plenty of £400 road bikes with Shimano Claris & around 11kg in weight. Having said that, global inflation has hit everyone, funnily enough, globally and everything was cheaper years ago.
Good question. For me it means entry into the sport. Something you would use to participate in a cycling event at some level and encourage you to do more because you enjoyed it. . There are lots of basher bikes about that can transport you place to place for various levels of disposability
Btw love the contrast in age and experience joined by knowledge and passion
The rise of nouveau riche around the world causes the trend of increased price (think: those are beings with identity thirst). Combine that with pandemic, and we get false demand trend. Look at newcomers (and established brands, as well) that suddenly become the ‘oooh aaah’ most sought after things due to their extremely high SRP, instead of making things more affordable. The ‘mythical’ bike fit also responsible for this trend. SRAM Force / Shi Ultegra Di2 should have been priced at around USD1k, reliable (but rather heavy) entry level carbon wheelsets at around USD500, and no frame with mythical aero BS and unexplainable carbon construction should have seen the light. Those are some examples that made true cycling enthusiasts feel disgusted. Should we all helped those companies by buying their products at illogical price? I’d say let nature does its job, sorting things out. Some will have their market share shrinking, some will go bankrupt. Let them be. Let cycling industry learns and go back to its pure form, instead of taking the customers’ money so easily.
Shimano has confirmed that it will release CUES components for road and gravel bikes early next year. They are to replace Tiagra, Sore and Claris.
I can’t believe anyone would even look at a new entry/mid level bike for £1500 as they are rubbish.
I’ve built a few 2019 pro service course frames up with full Dura Ace group sets for under £1500.
To me they are the nicest looking bikes before they ruined them with disc brakes and weigh 6.8kg’s.
I’m racing against guys on 15K bikes and don’t feel in anyway compromised.
Last week I was in the Alps and felt so save descending on tubular tyres and rim brakes.
I hate what is happening to cycling now, it’s all about marketing and BS and we have a new generation of riders who don’t know any better and fall for it.
Riding used to be about having fun and the racing and it’s all about who’s got the most expensive bike and kit.
Hey man, riding is still fun,, it's just that the gap between entry and pro level has extended. 15kg is an Enduro MTB. A 'heavy' road bike might be 8kg. Let's not sweat too much over the wright of 1 full water bottle.
12 Speed GRX Alloy Felt on Merlin, £1100 quid
Just bought one how the hell they've made money on it I've no idea but it's a bargain.
The increase in prices since i bought my last new road bike in 2018 is huge. Back then i got carbon canyon endurace with 11 speed 105 and dt swiss for £1400. Now that gets you alloy with tiagra.
Yes. In 2017, for £3000, I picked up a Fuji carbon with full Dura Ace groupset (including cassette and chain). That was full retail price from Evans Cycles.
Great vid opening the debate fellas and prompting a multitude of insightful and valid comments. The mainstream is no longer capable of offering a unified option in terms of price, value , choice and availability. Discounted components (invariably unavailable), no reasonably priced frames upon which to put them (save Cinelli and a few smaller independents), warehouses full of mid point built bikes with underwhelming components and exorbitant price tags. Entry level options even more constricted……….all industry self inflicted.
Solutions ……..tricky as it’s a multifaceted problem. New entrants frequently have nowhere to turn as often no simple mainstream purchase that’s performance and value. To pursue the alternative route of second hand or custom build, as you point out , that requires a fair degree of knowledge to avoid pitfalls. IMO a readjustment of expectations required (what the industry promotes and what consumers expect). Entry shouldn’t translate automatically to ‘carbon’ nor ‘disc’ . The lessons are already there from both ends of the perspective CAAD has been a successful line for decades, decent quality, ride and value, sold in droves. Contrast more expensive inferior quality entry point carbon offerings from the mainstream.
It’s a mass market potentially up for grabs at both the entry and mid point levels, the door is open for a good quality aluminium frame with LBS workshop custom build and at a carbon midpoint if Chinese producers can gain a toehold and momentum within western countries with physical presence of spares and servicing back up.
After i wondered around in my local Bike Store. There was nothing exiting under 3k. In the End i build a Road Bike with a chinese Frame and mech 105 under 1000 Euros. It Ends up at 7.6kg and rides like a dream. I mean u can buy even multiple carbon frames for the price of a western Alloy frame. Its stupid.
Very interesting - thank you.
Having bought a Tarmac SL7 as my 'dry ride', I wanted something for wet weather riding, including commuting. I have a carbon Rose bike, with 11 speed Ultegra Di2, and decided to look around for a frame to transfer components over to. What a nightmare. In the end I bought a used Kinesis frame on eBay and swapped everything over. However, I'd suggest that's quite a tricky job, unless you've done your research, and have a good understanding of what you're doing. It's a lovely bike to ride, and I'm very pleased. It's heavier than my Rose, but I'm not racing, so it's just good training.
When I bought my Rose, it was £2,700. A similar spec now would be more like £5k. There is a marked jump from 'entry level' to mid-level, and manufacturers seem to throw everything at it to attract the buyer. Things like power meters are good, but I have Assioma pedals, so this will always be seen as wasted money for me. I know managing stock must be an issue, and set builds help with that, but it would be great if you could choose your frame, group set, wheels, finishing kit, etc. A bit like Ribble do now (albeit to a lesser degree than they used to), and Rose did when I purchased.
2 years ago I bought a used Trek SLR frame for 1,300 USD, it came with a kogel ceramic bb and Dura ace brake calipers. The frame was mint, I built it up with Ultegra and a set of 2023 Lun Hyper wheels, roval rapide handlebars, whatever else I needed, I had laying around, costing me about 4 grand. Yes it's a lot of money but it would be about double the price out of the store, I love the bike.
All pretty much bang on. Time for shops to wake up too, chinese parts have indeed arrived and if they don't accept them then the lower budget client base will do it for them. Actually, it has already happened. 20 years ago I and many others had brand loyalty, these days, I just care about compatability and price!
I get what you said about old groupsets. I wanted to get a bigger cassette than my Ultegra 6700 allows and after searching a lot, I got lucky finding a 9 speed Deore that will allow me to use a 36 cassette. Even owning the groupset for the last 11 years, It still shifts great.
Myself and many other cyclists I've spoken with on this topic agree they would rather buy a new bike with their own choice of pedals, saddles, wheelsets and tires... much like the automotive industry selling cars fitted with various "trim levels" at escalating price points. This way a bike manufacturer can fit several of their alloy frames with a range of groupsets and brakesets then sell their carbon models with the top tier components. Enough weight weenies (dentists) will pay for their wind tunnel certified, aero carbon frames with battery-powered Dura-Ace groupsets and ultra-expensive carbon wheelsets to make the "cheaper" bikes profitable.
The answer for this has been around forever, but mostly in Indonesia. Polygon Strattos S7D, 105 hydraulic, 9.1kg w/o pedal. Less than 1k pound. with a pretty chunky wheels and tyres, but everyone upgrades their wheels eventually. You can start to find them globally now.
Problem is the S7D is not as flashy. Sensible non integrated cockpit, round seatpost, normal bottom bracket. But if you know better you know better.
Interesting topic.
I started with a kona rove with claris 2x8 for ~450 in 2018, upgraded to tiagra 2x10 in 2019 for ~400, then upgraded the frame to a surly strggler on 2021 for ~750, slowly changed some components to GRX400 2x10 (the levers are still tiagra) and upgraded to a carbon fork in 2023 for ~480, and a carbon seatpost in 2024 for ~80, just the saddle remains from the original kona.
That bike works as a commuter, gravel bike, light touring/bikepacking , and also I have done some 200k/400k brevets on her, even worked as a bike messenger for a few months.
There is no need for something more expensive, it gets the job done for a reasonable price, replacement parts are cheap and I hope the frame lasts at least 10-15 years more. The new high end groupsets are more expensive than my whole bike, it does not make any sense.
As an enthusiast, I'm exited about grx 12 speed, until I saw the price. big nope.
My budget is ~450/year on bike parts/upgrades, I will never spend 10x more for diminishing returns.
Genuine entry level only exists now at places like Decathlon and sometimes Halfords. Look at the value you can get there. Your average person has hundreds, not thousands, to spend on a bike, if that. You can get perfectly servicable bikes for 5-700 quid. In 2017 I got a full carbon frame Mach 120 with Campag Athena II for £700 (display model) from Decathlon. And then my local bike shop pushed me onto Shimano 105 last year because they couldn't get the parts to replace the worn chainset, and sent me away with internal cable buzz which wasn't there before. The 105 has been a downgrade tbh, shifting isn't as smooth. So yeah...the bike industry is absolutely not serving entry level right now.
I think a small problem is that entry level or more endurance orientated bikes aren’t exactly easy on the eye. They look completely different to the bikes people see on TV.
CUES road is coming, cube leaked it
also if i'm being nitpicky, tiagra got the hydraulic shifters update in 2020, but the rest is unchanged since 2016
I think this situation will somewhat improve as Shimano Cues for drop bars is about to come out. Will replace all of the old Tiagra, Sora and Claris groups that you’re complaining about.
Could you articulate the betterness you think CUES has over Tiagra 4700?
There is nothing entry or cheap in this industry. Well maybe the dust caps. Or the water bottles.
Decathlon Van rysel triban 105 £999
You guys need to criticise SRAM more. They got rid of the front derailleur on Apex which means anyone wanting a 2x setup has to get Rival which makes zero sense since Apex is not a cheap groupset. Yes you can use a Rival, Force or Red front derailleur if you get a bike with Apex AXS but that involves extra cost and the mechanical version of Apex will be stuck with 1x even if it may not be optimum.
I paid $150 for a pair of 105 11 spd mechanical hydro shifters, lightly used but still a high price a couple of years ago compared to today.
500 euro carbon frame from reputable Chinese vendor,seraph CX frame I am buying with ,SRAM rival 1x and elite gravel wheels 1000 euro all up
I would buy a older model at a discounted price. Still new. Also buy tough cycle to work.
I wondering if the next cohort of youth racers who grew up racing on eg. HUPcc frames in increasing sizes will just end up racing on their biggest sizes as adults
It would be a great business model.
105 12 speed mechanical or GRX with 11-36 cassette is the most exciting thing right now for most average riders. The semi-wired di2 stuff is a half-arsed design with all the disadvantages of both wired and wireless with few advantages. What is needed is decent 11 speed mechanical Tiagra with 11-36 or 11-38 cassettes. There is no reason to buy a new shimano equipped MTB. all the shimano tech dates from 2018 or 2019 and the goemetry has been good since 2019. Maybe the SRAM stuff matters but it is too expensive.
Totally. It’s just not good enough.
A issue with entry level bikes is the cheapest bike sucks, the one costing twice as much sucks maybe 0.0001% less, and you pay much more for it, But not looked entry level road bikes much.
But for xc hardtails I see this is sadly the case. Some brands are worse than others with doing the right compromises.
But if you have a decent frame, it's fine to have place holder parts on it, but keep the standards and geometry the same across all bikes, modern standards, making upgrading easy.
and don't charge obscene money for junk parts where performance doesn't get much better. This is why some buy the cheapest bike and upgrade it as it's more cost effective and as they get enough money they upgrade it, and they have a working bike from day one, but for this the frame has to be decent, and has to fit you.
There's no point in having, Brand Model 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,10.
But I see some bike brands have less models in Norway than USA market, they go full crazy mode there, at least they did, I remember Trek did.
If already all parts are junk, why pay more for junk?
But if the plan is to build a bike you can save money if you deal hunt, but usually self built bike is pricier. But if you are looking at the cheaper Wallmart, Halfords type of bike just to build it up from day one, you as well buy a frame set instead.
The brands deserve all they get they didnt ask whether the public if they had a choice with disc brake bikes and lot still ride rim brake as i have for the last 50 years the bike industry looks a bloody mess all greedy bastards the manufacturers should start giving an opportunity to youngsters off council estates cycling is like tennis now who became quite selective where youngsters were coming from. back in my day racing with likes of John Pritchard Noel Lilley Iam Cammish Glen Longland everyone of them so friendly, i past some of GB squad youngsters a few months back out on the moors Newport South wales not one acknowledged me how times have changed. Back to your point i recently purchased a SWORKS venge ultegra spec from cycle exchange Kingston for £1100 2 months back 2014 model a lovely bike great content again guys but you are bloody spot on.
Great discussion, first time watching any of your videos, found it really valuable and engaging - cheers!
Thanks. We have much bigger main channel. This is just for fun really. Thanks for stopping by I hope you enjoy the rest.
Since stopping working as a shop mechanic 12 years ago I have only bought second hand bikes.
I’ve been buying Rim brake road bikes that were “dentist bikes” 12 years ago for less than $1000.
Most recent purchase was a fillet brazed road bike from a top USA builder with a record groupset, chris king, velocity and Thomson build for $700
You just can’t come close with new bikes.
I buy dentist rim brake bikes from cycle exchange Kingston upon Thames just bought sworks venge full ultegra spec many new parts £1100 sublime bike best race bike I have bought since my vitus duralinox peugeot in 1982 50 years of riding to.
The industry is shooting itself in the foot if its abandoning the entry level components and bikes. The next generation of incoming cyclists won't become brand attached.
This mean that for every dollar they save today, they will have to spend a hundred fold in marketing to make them their customers. Not to mention that the high entry level barrier will reduce the number of cyclists. This is so short sighted especially considering that the motorcycle industry has done the same error in the past. Every motorcycle was a 600+cc sport bike. Their were almost no entry level bike. And then, the sales dropped year after year ...
I bought a Ribble AL Endurance last October as my first road bike, for £800. After watching multiple TH-cam videos (not this channel) with influencers talking about how they’d been “given” the amazing bike and giving the impression (by their musical montages) you can only enjoy riding if you have the dream bike. I possibly started to believe it. But then after realising the enjoyment comes from your physical improvements, I stopped listening. The Ribble covered 3800 plus miles, it now commutes 80 miles a week. When I brake it stops and the Tiagra gears change when I push the lever. It’s done multiple high elevation Sportif rides. Yes it’s heavy, but it’s not all about the bike, in my very limited/humble cycling opinion, you’re fitness ability comes first and you can ride any bike if you’re making progress with your fitness.
You are totally right but many of us are also extrinsically motivated by the technical aspects of the sport too. I like to feel I am fairly balanced for intrinsic fitness motivation and extrinsic tech motivation. Having a nice bike is a great feeling
I wasn’t questioning this channels coverage of the fitness aspect, far from it and I’m sorry if my comment gave that impression. I’ve mentioned previously that the advice from you guys kindly gave me, transformed my cycling training and I’ve reaped huge rewards. I was failing to say “new cyclists need to avoid the shiny objects, you can get one later”. Again apologies my comment gave the wrong impression.
All my bikes were 2nd hand fixies i got for free or less than £50. Obviously vendors don't want you thinking this way but that's where the real excitement is
You can get perfectly good Chinese carbon frames shipped to your door for 500 bucks/euro. Velobuild is the biggest name in that game. I have an OEM frame that costs less than that, from a factory that OEMs for argon18. I've built 9 such bikes, We've put probably 15-20k km on them. Not a single one of the frames had any issues. The days when Chinese carbon was a pile of dangerous shit are long, long gone.
For sure. It’s still seen as a big risk though. An experienced rider will be able to spot problems.
@@MapdecVodcast correct, but the QC is much, much better than before, and if you have a competent bike shop, you're fine. The alternative is riding a branded piece of borderline junk that's still going to cost at least twice as much. At some point, it's a risk reward analysis.
i got good value out of a BMC Teammachine SLR by getting “last years model” on run out sale with 105 mechanical. That’s their lowest spec Teammachine I think, but the frame (SLR) is just the same as models with their ICS cockpit, much fancier wheels, and Ultegra Di2 at over twice the price I paid for mine. Obviously not their top-spec frame (SLR01 and/or R model now I think). I replaced their crap saddle with a better one (Selle Italia) and the 105 cranks with a chinese brand (Magene) that has a power meter spindle. I’m pretty happy with it TBH.
Imagine spending three grand on a bike and telling your wife it’s entry level 😊
The same thing is happening with the car industry
I've just had to go down this road, she genuinely did not believe me. But 3k is about as basic as a bike enthusiast would want.😂
@@1xRacer just don’t say pedals are extra
Imagine having a wife... Haha! More bikes please!
My wife is more mid-range than entry level...oh I read your comment too quickly 😂😂😂😂
I think lot of entry level bikes perhaps moved to all road or gravel category. At lest hat is what I see around as most new cyclist around me are reaching for Gravel bike as their first drop bar bike. Also in central Europe, we have couple of well established and reliable brands like Ctm, Kellys and Superior which each of them have offerings for Aluminum frames on 105 mechanical group sets for around 1K GBP mark and carbon frame on 105 12s under 2K mark and in general are cheapest brands in any bike shop and category around here. But it is true that we have very few offerings from major manufacturers outside of Sales. I also think that especially in Europe big box brands like Decathlon took over the bottom end of the market and traditional cycling brands just don't want the hustle of cheap-isch bikes.
There were multiple reasons why I decided to get a vintage steel frame for $80 last year for my next build. But one of them was definitely because it did not seem like there had been any sort of trickle down effect on groupsets for some time as you seem to point out. I get that the component manufacturers want to get their R&D investment back but as an average rider, I don't find myself even wanted or considered by the major brands anymore.
The level of snobery is unreal. At the beginning they try to say they really do mid-tier things. Yet the apparent disdain for Tiagra 4700 is unreal. I've got an R8000, 6800, 5700 - all 11sp bikes; but both my cyclocross bikes are Tiagra 4700. There is nothing wrong with it at all. Why do things need to be changed all the time when things work great? Oh, as showed - its all about the fashion. "Looks so dated!"... feh. How about just ride your bike? Oh, and the 10KG is too heavy for a road bike. Feh. I do amature race training rides on a 9kg bike. It isn't the extra 1-2kg that holds me back. A 10kg bike isn't holding back those that aren't doing that.
Yep. Snobbery on par with new riders buying bikes. They also want something that looks modern, has an upgrade path and provides the confidence of control that an entry level riders demands. There is nothing wrong with Tiagra, Claris or Sora, except that it has been neglected and is not desirable. It doesn’t have an easy upgrade path and the prices are not distinguishable
Decent bikes have never been cheap, but the prices for bikes have never been this insane!
No entry level bikes, no entry level riders, no future for the industry!
So glad I’m not a fashion victim chasing the latest craze!
So very true.
Planet X are usually good if you have a tight budget. They have a varied range to choose from. Many manufacturers have budget bikes in their range but the frames gemetry are usually suited for beginner riders.
I feel you're being a bit negative re Chinese frames. Elves look to have some tremendous frames; Yoeleo too.... and both with very pretty paint jobs. Yes, people might be a bit unsure, but that's because they need you guys to hold their hand. And though these two especially seem very reputable, if there IS something seriously not right with frame then they've got you to help spot it and potentially fix it. At the end of the day if marques like Canyon and Giant don't want to supply stuff at a more reasonable price point then it's time to give the new kids a look.
For us in a retail business the Chinese brands are too unreliable. Remember we are still accountable to the sale of goods act and we depend on a retailer / supplier arrangement to support that. Without it the retailer carries 100% of the risk. Quality aside the main issue for me is the anonymity and the regularity they close down and start up again under a different brand name.
The marketing teams are to blame not everyone wants a super light weight bike they want something easy to service at home
Ugh I hate to say this but you ASKED
there is a bike sold at WALMART for $250 US, Ozark Trail brand
FULLY configured for touring, front fork has those three bolts for the super low touring panniers
pretty much have to buy a SURLY to get those, or just.. a walmart bike?
500,- is already a lot for me for a bike, to get back into it
CUES is coming
Shimano cues roadlivers are comming. I think this will replace tiagra. The nice thing is you can mix and match road with mtb, and build a fairly priced mechanical mullet setup without 3d Party hacks. For me this is exciting stuff, depending on the price.
I have build up a Kinesis GX race, with a 2nd hand GRX 800 11 speed, nearly new condition, silver Ritchey Classic stem, handlebar and seatpost (all alloy) and Mavic Allroad S Wheelset ( also alloy ), everything new beside of the Groupset…. I payed ca. 2.300 € for all, not cheap but i love it.
Here in Germany there are no Kinesis, so you can ride a „exklusive“ bike for relativly cheap.
On the other Hand 2,3 k € for a full alloy Build is a lot, for a full custom build is relativly low….
If cues drops work with MTB groups GRX is pretty much done who is going to buy grx when you can get a SLX/XT and cues mash up with wider range for less money it's a no brainer.
Canyon Endurace is the best value road bike, 105 R7000 rimbrake version is only 8.4kg for 1300 euros. Or with 105 disc 1500 euros, 9.2kg.
With entry/mid level: just had a look at the Canyon website: did you look at the Endurace 7? 7100 105 components, aluminium frame on cheap DT Swiss wheels for £1600. In 2016 or so, I paid circa £1800 for a steel frame full 5800 105 hydro disc brake w/Mavic Aksiums. Seems fairly comparable, albeit even a better deal!
Yeah. I feel this is still too much for entry level and under spec for mid level.
Shimano have left a HUGE vacuum in between Tiagra 10spd and the new 12spd groupsets.
When the new 12spd groupsets were launched, I expected that Shimano would soon also announce a new 11spd Tiagra groupset but there has nothing since.
The sneak peak on the Cues release on the Cube website this week was interesting. drop bar shifters on the Cues. could be the answer?
Yeah Shimano will be ditching tiagra/claris for cues and that's definitely a good thing.
@@zedddddful Why? What will CUES do that Tiagra 4700 won't? In fact, don't forget that CUES has slow rear shifting. I don't think that will be valued in road biking.
Shimano CUES for road. Due early next year, will replace the shitty groupsets on cheaper bikes and hopefully will bury crap mechanical disc brakes…
Given there is the Tiaga 4700 hydraulic groupset - why hasn't it taken over? What is it about CUES that you think will be better and cheeper?
Spending crazy money on big brand name frame that might not be great, and is pricy it's not nice. I've not looked at road bikes. recently. But goign second hand might be an good option, I see that there are plenty of them online. So buy a decent frame, proven to be safe to ride, then upgrade parts if you need to change some. The direct to consumer bikes will be cheaper, already 30% retail new so add more on that and it's a fantastic deal.
So if you are already considering those, you might as well consider boutique brands.
If you want to spend lots of money on a Alu frame go for Nicolai bikes ect. might even go custom geo then, raw frame or custom paint job. It will be pricier of course, but quality.
The problem is, as I see it with my partner, you bought an entry level roadbike about 5 years ago. Rim brakes, upgraded the wheels when the others died with some decent light aluminium wheels and various drive train parts have been upgraded over time as others are worn out. It's a perfectly decent road bike but disk brakes would be nice. You visit the lbs, see a nice looking disc brake bike for say £1700-2000, but then you see how much it weighs!! The wheels are more like boat anchors, so you think fuck it if it's going to weigh that much I might as well get a gravel bike!
Cinelli, Kinesis, both do frames for c. £600. 105, Deda, Hunt, boom.
Well I think my current bike and next bike will be of interest to this discussion. Five years ago I bought a cheap Raleigh hybrid bike for $350 because it was the old model year. Today, it's a drop-bar bike kitted out in full Shimano Claris, Hunt gravel wheels, and gp5000 as trs. The only original part on the frame is the stem, which I've flipped.
Anywhos, I picked up an Ltwoo 2x11 mechanical shifting hydraulic brake groupset, YBN chain, Zrace crankset, and 105 cassette for about $400 only to discover those brake calipers aren't compatible with ISO to flat mount adapters. Thus, I'm planning to buy a Soma Fog Cutter or Surly Midnight Special frameset, and build it up with the new groupset plus the wheels and cockpit of my current bike. Granted those frames are like $1000 plus the labor of installing a bottom bracket and headset, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The problem with the industry is that vary few companies actually make anything. It’s all just marketing. Everything is contract manufacturing coming out of the same factories in China. Frames are expensive because they cost a fortune to ship around the world. People in the industry need to stop acting like this is some kind of big secret. People need to start calling out the companies that just market crap there buying. I can’t stand when some you tuber stands in a factory in China and tells everyone it’s a secret what brands they make.
Very true. We should defo call them brands rather than manufacturers
Just to proof that amazing amazing entry level bikes still exist: look up the Stevens Aspin. 1800 € will get you an extremely well built, beautiful aluminum frame with Ultegra 11-speed and Fulcrum wheels. It earned a Tour magazine test victory and it‘s only 8.1 kg. Rim brakes on aluminum rims work great and are way easier to live with compared to disc brakes imho. I have a Stevens Stelvio that I bought used for 550 € with 105 as a winter/Zwift bike and it‘s great.
Video up two hours ago and that activecycles link is sold out, so...
My C2W scheme is still £1k I have been looking but unless I want cable discs it’s though to find anything
Got boardman slr 8.9 for £1200 which has 105 groupset and carbon frame.
On the giant website you can get a giant tcr disc 3 for £1644 or rim brake advanced 2 for £1574 . As complete in the same available now
Remember that 8-10 years ago you could buy Canyon carbon bike for 1400 Sterlings, since labour costs gone up, materials, and other overhead have, they digged out really old groupsets, and assembled this "vintage" bike. With aluminium bikes, the costs are lower, but also profit margin is not attractive. And everyone wants "carbon".
Ribble 12 speed 105 hydraulic brakes. £1300. Spa cycles offer very good bikes at competitive prices
Plenty of sub£1500 bikes out there. Consider last year's model, often sold at heavily discounted price.
Cues drop bar coming
Just because you ride a less expensive bike it doesn't make you an entry level rider.
No, it’s just known as an entry level price point. The product to enter the sport with. I feel it is important these bikes offer an effective upgrade pathway. A means to gradually improve parts as they wear out.
The entry level groupset looks like more or less a solved problem. I am struggling to think of anything that 8 year old tiagra lacks that is needed on an entry level bike. The problem is the price.
Just had a look and a tiagra standalone groupset is very close to 105 price. Presumably that reflects what is being paid by bike builders.
In the secondhand market I am seeing small shops like Marcus Bikes build up a reputation for having good quality / value stock that have been checked over. This is probably the real entry level right now.
Yeah. It just needs an update and an upgrade pathway.
The bike industry has gotten elitist but so has everything else, you have to be comfortable on a bike you enjoy not how expensive the bike is. In the middle of pricing out upgrades for my Neo Retro Modern Fusion Chambéry D’Huez(200$ Carbon OCLV Greg LeMond 55 frame 08’ LeMond/Bontrager Carbon Alpe D’Huez fork.) comes out to around $3,790.76 so about 4 Grand of upgrades. Redshift Stem & dual seatpost, Hunt sprint aero alloy wheels, onyx vesper hubs, wolf tooth headset, new old stock Bontrager 52/42/30 & gonna fiddle with seeing if I can make a 11speed work on a triple crank. Coefficient AR 36mm dropbars & finally Gravel King SSR 28mm tires for stability & grip. Yes it’s not most modern but it’s a bike I enjoy. Bike industry isn’t capitalizing on the culture of cycling just the profits of new Tech.
Chinese frames are now US$2000. They are too expensive. They still have teething problems. Chinese frames should be no more than US$1600. That is the sweet spot price. Go on sale for US$1500. If Winspace/Tavelo did that, they'd crush the mid tier custom build market.
What are custom frame prices like these days? There were a lot of custom steel frame builders back in the day and it would start around mid-tier level for price. If a bike shop like you could partner with someone like that and do a deal, there might be scope for just cleaning up that market big time.
Btw scheme is a scam, alu frames with dated groupsets etc
what would make me more interested would be 12s 2-by GRX to support 40t rear cassette, or just for shimano to make it. I am confused what do people ride to be the gearing brands provide adequate, to all my friend starting with road bike I suggest GRX to be able to get up hill, road gearing its just a joke for beginers and for offroad there is no sigle drop bar groupset that provides anything near adequate, or is it just me and everybody else is riding on flats or loves grinding on 40 rpm? But exactly as you mentioned, its not possible to get decent alu frame for normal amount of money... hope new 11s drop bar cues comes soon, and doest dissapoint
Buy pre loved!
There is rumors of Shimano releasing Cues for dropbars replacing Sora & Tiagra