There are only two things I love at campagnolo on my Time VXS translink (mix of centaur levers, potenza der. and chorus calipers). 1. It's lighter than DA and cheaper than 105, 2. Those thumb shifters are the best and so addictive. Every time I ride my Shimano bikes (it's more often), I'm weaving into the air with my thumbs.
Very interesting about the levels of frame quality or lack thereof. I got a Felt VR a few months ago and it seems alright, but I don't have the skills or tools to QC it myself.
Campagnolo is a family owned business and allegedly extremely cash rich, so the UK rep who posts on WW reckons they're not going anywhere soon, but it's pretty clear that whichever family member is in charge right now is pretty clueless. Not sure what would be more sad, if they just stop making groupsets, or if they decide to sell out to a private equity fund and private equity fund managers end up doing what they usually do. What should they try to bring to market most urgently to save things? 12 speed Centaur? EPS/WRL gravel? EPS/WRL Chorus? I don't know if it would excite enough people, but for me a big part of the Campag allure is the looks, so I would want to see a revamped EPS, semi wireless, but a real design focus on quality of life issues for maintenance and longevity. A standard replaceable battery rather than that hideously expensive unit with all the captive cables would be important, especially so it could be reusable across lower tier EPS groupsets. Maybe also a modern 'silver' metal groupset, that Shimano GRX exclusively for custom frame builders seems very popular, I think Campag would be even more so.
Ive always been Chorus/Record and had Veloce/centaur for a winter bike. This road they’re going down now will alienate a lot of Campag fans and old school guys who liked a good looking groupset on their good bikes. Who are they marketing these Groupsets at now ? Certainly not the purists. We’re all not dentists & Doctors on £70k + a year. Either they try and poach a couple of Shimano/Sram engineers or they’ll be lucky to still be bringing out stuff by 2040. Read the room Campag 🤷🏻♀️
So sad to see Campagnolo struggle. In my opinion, their mechanical groupsets were the best. They lost it when electronic shifting came along. I only run second hand Campy stuff on my bikes, reliable and easy to maintain. You can even service their old ergopower shifters! If only Campy would release a ‘heritage’ silver 10-speed groupset. I think a lot of people would buy it. But I guess downgrading is not an option in this time and age.
With electronic shifting, I think it’s inevitable that everyone will just have small buttons at various locations. Just like index shifting changed everything(and not always for the best), shift lever design just changed, but basically everyone is using some sort of gear synchronized lever instead of direct leverage pull. With electronic, it will evolve again. I have no problems with Campy dropping thumb releases when the paradigm has changed.
When I started cycling, I never really considered Campanolo because of the price difference. I had a budget and needed to be on the road and trail more than I needed to splurge on Campy. But then I bought a used road bike with 10speed Campy Chorus, and I was honestly surprised at how much I preferred it. Campy shifters are also rebuildable, so worn parts can be replaced, and the hoods just fit my hands better. I think Campy has a base that loves being able to maintain their legacy parts. Also, there are many of us that want shiny alloy cranks and rings, and Campy had the best ones. Plus, the smooth bearings in Campy bottom brackets, hubs and headsets! Campy has a high end legacy that has traditional/retro appeal, and Campy needs to provide that at some level.
Oh yay. It looks like you're getting some insight into the cost of quality and why the extra care is so often left to the end user and their local shop instead of assuming everyone is willing to pay for that quality control up front.
If only the local shops would actually do it. It’s been a long standing frustration that although the brands can do a shocking job sometimes, it is the final responsibility of the actual dealer to make sure it’s right.
@MapdecVodcast Some local shops do, and have always done this type of thing. But, it's the minority of shops that have the skill or interest and the minority of customers that recognize or need the value and are willing to pay for the time. Many shops offer "pro builds" of new bikes providing some or all of the qc you espouse. Most customers aren't interested in adding $300 to the price of their already expensive new bike. Bargain shopping customers are at least as much to blame for poor qc as the manufacturers.
RM3 Argonaut. Full custom carbon with CNC machined Titanium headset cups and Titanium BB inserts. Don’t ask about the price. Allied and Enve also make custom in-house carbon bikes AFAIK. Argonaut and Enve will also sell you a “standard” geometry frame made in Taiwan. But again - they’re expensive. So yeah, if I lived in the UK, I’d buy that Cervelo frame and pay Mapdec shop hours to check out and face/correct as required the headset, disc caliper mounts, and BB.
CUES is already a choice of 1× or 2×, and I think aside from the drop bar shifters, everything you see is what's going to be available. It's literally 3 groupsets (U8000 11 speed, U6000 11 & 10 speed, U4000 9 speed) and aside from flat bar vs drop bar shifters, it's the same components regardless of road, gravel, city, trekking, touring, MTB, or any e-bikes. That's the point, massive simplification, cost savings and longevity for the next decades to come.
I didnt really get what you meant with the gearing on the Super Record S. What are you missing from these options? 45x29, 48x32, 50x34, 52x36, 53x39, 54x39. But I agree that the group set is expensive and I think there gravel group set is to be viewed as there entry level into the camampagnolo system. The big price shock to me this year is the SRAM 13 speed cassette for 700€, which makes Super record "cheap" 😅
@@Membrillo81 its a road bike group set so I guess most people would not need a lower gear then that. I really prefer a tight cassette without big jumps between gear. Their cassettes for gravel are fantastic in that way in my opinion.
@@robhamp9408 Like why I'm not getting any younger? Or why don't I have pro rider power levels despite living a normal life with some rides? Or why do I live in a mountainous region? Or why don't I just stick to the normal roads everyone else rides instead of riding smaller roads with crazy gradients? And last but not least, why do I don't have the money for Campy?
@@Membrillo81 Someone has 'influenced' your thinking on what is the best bike for you then. All of your points sum me up and the majority of others... ie. you are on the wrong bike.
So a big company that makes bike for others and also has a giant share of the market for their own brand of bike still isnt making their own bikes as best they can!
Campagnolo S - Spazzatura! Which in Italian, means rubbish! Campagnolo mechanical Record and Super Record, from 2000 right up to 12-speed are pretty much faultless in operation and reliability, have plenty of gear ranges available and look dam fine, in my opinion. I have owned and run nearly every iteration and I still have Super Record 11 (the nicest) and Record 12 (the best performing). None of the electronic groups though were really worth it and really quirky!
Why don't the manufacturers split the cost of manufacture and qc. So say the z3 frame is currently 2k to buy. You get hit with import tax on all of it. I'm not importing a qc service, so that could be billed separately 1.2k for the frame, 800 for the qc, and only pay import for the 1.2k. boom! everyone is happier
I would imagine it would be the point of inspection in customs. Generally tariffs are lower unfinished parts because the finishing process employs workers in the destination country. It is so complicated these days. There are numerous specialist companies that help business import and export and advise on these things. I have only ever tipped my toe in to the vast murky waters.
So based on what you guys are saying WTF are people paying for. You can buy a motorcycle that goes 160mph for around the same price as a bicycle. How did this ever get to be the norm? And there are cunts out there that will argue day and night that these bicycles are worth that kind of money. I really really hope the industry crashes and the con artists have to go find work in some other industry. Speaking for myself if the part or component is made of carbon I'll never buy it. I'm done with that garbage.
Well. We are trying to price all of that together and uncover some of it. We are trying to find the legitimately good stuff at fair prices and the overpriced junk. To be fair we don’t do so much in the ‘cheap but good’ category.
@@MapdecVodcast This was a good and interesting video to watch. You guys seem to have up'ed your game. Telling the truth about the industry is the only way good things are going to happen. it's been a while but I'll give you a thumbs up on this one.
Afaik that stopped being true five if not ten years ago. If you look up Xiamen in China, it's right across Taiwan. Most of carbon bike stuff (and wheels) now comes from Xiamen.
The first Super Record was in 1973. What are you on about Paul? I agree with much of what you are saying about the latest Campagnolo offerings... But you talk so much crap due to a lack of knowledge.
@@MapdecVodcast You may be right, thanks. let me point out there is a difference in the brakes between GRX/Ultegra and 105. Shimano has a name for this (C band or D band.....sorry I forget) This shares tech with some Shimano MTD grouypsets. I have only 6 bikes in my current stable, I can barely feel the disc braking difference. Yet it is different!!
@@MapdecVodcast Thank you sir. I humbly would comment: Other aftermarket products might be improvements too? Please let me observe my own prejudice (Ultegra rim brake calipers are much improved than 105. I'm just prejudiced) I know this discussion refers to disc brakes. I'm just an old guy with old habits, I like Ultegra. Another thing, I have some friends that ride downhill MTB kinda aggressively. They all compliment servo-wave! I thank you for your efforts. Please accept my compliments for your personal replies.
That's whta we see in your workshop, and Hambini complaining about bad qualiity etc. Very low quality, or extremely high quality. B) How TIME untill 2022 managed to have the best quality frames for 1350 Sterlings (Alpe d'Huez 21)? And from 2023 the same frame ADH 2023 for over 3000 Sterlings? The same geometry, the same material added Dyneema only (but removed Basalt) , and less drilling and parts. C) I will be switching from Ultegra mechanical 11 speed to Campagnolo Chorus 12 speed mechanical, maybe with Magura calipers. I simply love quality of mechanical , don't like electronic groupsets.Campagnolo ergonomy, and quality of shift both mechanical and electrronic is superior ans even faster than electronic, also they make top quality cassettes . Shimano and Sram hoods are disaster.
@@MapdecVodcast Fair point, but this cycling group can't be numerically large enough for a group set manufacturer to just sell to 'them". I agree the prices are ridiculous.
You have no idea or experience in how carbon composite frames are manufactured. Yet you claim to know here everything how they are manufactured, what materials are used, how they are Qc’d. From your click bait conversation, I doubt you have ever been to Asia and visited any frame manufacturer. Your nervous laughter adds to that lack of knowledge. Very misleading on all accounts.
‘So far this year we have seen about 2500 bikes come through this year ‘. ?? You don’t need much to do the maths. That’s on average 14 bikes per day…. For the size of your workshop and your staff count, the time it takes to record and edit YT stuff, seems a lot of BS.
To be fair some of that is just suspension work. 4 mechanics, 1 admin, 1 admin/video, 1 editor, 1 marketing. Plus freelance book keepers, and other associates. Oh. And me. 🤷♂️
There are only two things I love at campagnolo on my Time VXS translink (mix of centaur levers, potenza der. and chorus calipers). 1. It's lighter than DA and cheaper than 105, 2. Those thumb shifters are the best and so addictive. Every time I ride my Shimano bikes (it's more often), I'm weaving into the air with my thumbs.
Very interesting about the levels of frame quality or lack thereof. I got a Felt VR a few months ago and it seems alright, but I don't have the skills or tools to QC it myself.
Campagnolo is a family owned business and allegedly extremely cash rich, so the UK rep who posts on WW reckons they're not going anywhere soon, but it's pretty clear that whichever family member is in charge right now is pretty clueless.
Not sure what would be more sad, if they just stop making groupsets, or if they decide to sell out to a private equity fund and private equity fund managers end up doing what they usually do.
What should they try to bring to market most urgently to save things? 12 speed Centaur? EPS/WRL gravel? EPS/WRL Chorus?
I don't know if it would excite enough people, but for me a big part of the Campag allure is the looks, so I would want to see a revamped EPS, semi wireless, but a real design focus on quality of life issues for maintenance and longevity. A standard replaceable battery rather than that hideously expensive unit with all the captive cables would be important, especially so it could be reusable across lower tier EPS groupsets.
Maybe also a modern 'silver' metal groupset, that Shimano GRX exclusively for custom frame builders seems very popular, I think Campag would be even more so.
Ive always been Chorus/Record and had Veloce/centaur for a winter bike. This road they’re going down now will alienate a lot of Campag fans and old school guys who liked a good looking groupset on their good bikes. Who are they marketing these Groupsets at now ? Certainly not the purists. We’re all not dentists & Doctors on £70k + a year. Either they try and poach a couple of Shimano/Sram engineers or they’ll be lucky to still be bringing out stuff by 2040. Read the room Campag 🤷🏻♀️
So sad to see Campagnolo struggle. In my opinion, their mechanical groupsets were the best. They lost it when electronic shifting came along. I only run second hand Campy stuff on my bikes, reliable and easy to maintain. You can even service their old ergopower shifters! If only Campy would release a ‘heritage’ silver 10-speed groupset. I think a lot of people would buy it. But I guess downgrading is not an option in this time and age.
With electronic shifting, I think it’s inevitable that everyone will just have small buttons at various locations. Just like index shifting changed everything(and not always for the best), shift lever design just changed, but basically everyone is using some sort of gear synchronized lever instead of direct leverage pull. With electronic, it will evolve again. I have no problems with Campy dropping thumb releases when the paradigm has changed.
This does seem to be the logical path.
IMHO, Campagnola has more going on with their wheelsets these days as compared to the groupsets on offer
When I started cycling, I never really considered Campanolo because of the price difference. I had a budget and needed to be on the road and trail more than I needed to splurge on Campy. But then I bought a used road bike with 10speed Campy Chorus, and I was honestly surprised at how much I preferred it. Campy shifters are also rebuildable, so worn parts can be replaced, and the hoods just fit my hands better.
I think Campy has a base that loves being able to maintain their legacy parts. Also, there are many of us that want shiny alloy cranks and rings, and Campy had the best ones. Plus, the smooth bearings in Campy bottom brackets, hubs and headsets! Campy has a high end legacy that has traditional/retro appeal, and Campy needs to provide that at some level.
I think you just nailed it. Campy is famous for that repairability, dependability.
Oh yay. It looks like you're getting some insight into the cost of quality and why the extra care is so often left to the end user and their local shop instead of assuming everyone is willing to pay for that quality control up front.
If only the local shops would actually do it. It’s been a long standing frustration that although the brands can do a shocking job sometimes, it is the final responsibility of the actual dealer to make sure it’s right.
@MapdecVodcast Some local shops do, and have always done this type of thing. But, it's the minority of shops that have the skill or interest and the minority of customers that recognize or need the value and are willing to pay for the time. Many shops offer "pro builds" of new bikes providing some or all of the qc you espouse. Most customers aren't interested in adding $300 to the price of their already expensive new bike. Bargain shopping customers are at least as much to blame for poor qc as the manufacturers.
RM3 Argonaut. Full custom carbon with CNC machined Titanium headset cups and Titanium BB inserts. Don’t ask about the price. Allied and Enve also make custom in-house carbon bikes AFAIK. Argonaut and Enve will also sell you a “standard” geometry frame made in Taiwan. But again - they’re expensive. So yeah, if I lived in the UK, I’d buy that Cervelo frame and pay Mapdec shop hours to check out and face/correct as required the headset, disc caliper mounts, and BB.
CUES is already a choice of 1× or 2×, and I think aside from the drop bar shifters, everything you see is what's going to be available. It's literally 3 groupsets (U8000 11 speed, U6000 11 & 10 speed, U4000 9 speed) and aside from flat bar vs drop bar shifters, it's the same components regardless of road, gravel, city, trekking, touring, MTB, or any e-bikes. That's the point, massive simplification, cost savings and longevity for the next decades to come.
You guys should distribute frames from lightcarbon.
Umm. We will see how that plays out.
As a consumer and not a mechanic I've never noticed any of the issues you guys always talk about. Ignorance is bliss.
Remember we tend to help the poor folk that got dealt a lemon. Many bikes are just fine.
I can’t wait until Time actually makes their endurance bike with geometry similar to the Look 765…
I know. The fluidity needs to come.
and a fender mount
@@MapdecVodcast any inside info as to when?
I didnt really get what you meant with the gearing on the Super Record S. What are you missing from these options? 45x29, 48x32, 50x34, 52x36, 53x39, 54x39. But I agree that the group set is expensive and I think there gravel group set is to be viewed as there entry level into the camampagnolo system. The big price shock to me this year is the SRAM 13 speed cassette for 700€, which makes Super record "cheap" 😅
Chainring options are very good, but cassette options are poor: 10-25, 10-27, 10-29. Lowest possible gear is 29/29.
@@Membrillo81 its a road bike group set so I guess most people would not need a lower gear then that. I really prefer a tight cassette without big jumps between gear. Their cassettes for gravel are fantastic in that way in my opinion.
@@Membrillo81 cassette options are just fine. If you need more than that there are many other questions you should be asking yourself.
@@robhamp9408 Like why I'm not getting any younger? Or why don't I have pro rider power levels despite living a normal life with some rides? Or why do I live in a mountainous region? Or why don't I just stick to the normal roads everyone else rides instead of riding smaller roads with crazy gradients? And last but not least, why do I don't have the money for Campy?
@@Membrillo81 Someone has 'influenced' your thinking on what is the best bike for you then. All of your points sum me up and the majority of others... ie. you are on the wrong bike.
I loved my Campag Athena II, even though it was 10 years old. Shifted to 105 because of parts availability, and it's felt like a huge downgrade.
So a big company that makes bike for others and also has a giant share of the market for their own brand of bike still isnt making their own bikes as best they can!
Campagnolo S - Spazzatura! Which in Italian, means rubbish!
Campagnolo mechanical Record and Super Record, from 2000 right up to 12-speed are pretty much faultless in operation and reliability, have plenty of gear ranges available and look dam fine, in my opinion. I have owned and run nearly every iteration and I still have Super Record 11 (the nicest) and Record 12 (the best performing). None of the electronic groups though were really worth it and really quirky!
Why don't the manufacturers split the cost of manufacture and qc. So say the z3 frame is currently 2k to buy. You get hit with import tax on all of it. I'm not importing a qc service, so that could be billed separately 1.2k for the frame, 800 for the qc, and only pay import for the 1.2k. boom! everyone is happier
I would imagine it would be the point of inspection in customs. Generally tariffs are lower unfinished parts because the finishing process employs workers in the destination country. It is so complicated these days. There are numerous specialist companies that help business import and export and advise on these things. I have only ever tipped my toe in to the vast murky waters.
Unviable is the word you're looking for.
Thank you 🙏
So based on what you guys are saying WTF are people paying for. You can buy a motorcycle that goes 160mph for around the same price as a bicycle. How did this ever get to be the norm? And there are cunts out there that will argue day and night that these bicycles are worth that kind of money. I really really hope the industry crashes and the con artists have to go find work in some other industry. Speaking for myself if the part or component is made of carbon I'll never buy it. I'm done with that garbage.
Layers upon layers of bad business practices and western people bloating payrolls. And all the marketing.
Well. We are trying to price all of that together and uncover some of it. We are trying to find the legitimately good stuff at fair prices and the overpriced junk. To be fair we don’t do so much in the ‘cheap but good’ category.
@@MapdecVodcast This was a good and interesting video to watch. You guys seem to have up'ed your game. Telling the truth about the industry is the only way good things are going to happen. it's been a while but I'll give you a thumbs up on this one.
I thought the major western brands were mostly manufacturing in Taiwan rather than China?
Afaik that stopped being true five if not ten years ago. If you look up Xiamen in China, it's right across Taiwan. Most of carbon bike stuff (and wheels) now comes from Xiamen.
Kinda. It’s not a whole truth though. And many brands will have multiple factories.
Also many Taiwanese companies have factories in China
The first Super Record was in 1973. What are you on about Paul? I agree with much of what you are saying about the latest Campagnolo offerings... But you talk so much crap due to a lack of knowledge.
🤷♂️
I love you guys (only hetro-sexually) Please, I would suggest the difference between Ultegra and 105 is the braking>study this,
Umm. I don’t think servo wave changes much. If you put Ultegra spec rotors and pads into your 105 caliper and lever system they will be very similar
@@MapdecVodcast You may be right, thanks. let me point out there is a difference in the brakes between GRX/Ultegra and 105. Shimano has a name for this (C band or D band.....sorry I forget) This shares tech with some Shimano MTD grouypsets.
I have only 6 bikes in my current stable, I can barely feel the disc braking difference. Yet it is different!!
@@MapdecVodcast Thank you sir. I humbly would comment: Other aftermarket products might be improvements too?
Please let me observe my own prejudice (Ultegra rim brake calipers are much improved than 105. I'm just prejudiced) I know this discussion refers to disc brakes. I'm just an old guy with old habits, I like Ultegra.
Another thing, I have some friends that ride downhill MTB kinda aggressively. They all compliment servo-wave!
I thank you for your efforts. Please accept my compliments for your personal replies.
That's whta we see in your workshop, and Hambini complaining about bad qualiity etc. Very low quality, or extremely high quality.
B) How TIME untill 2022 managed to have the best quality frames for 1350 Sterlings (Alpe d'Huez 21)? And from 2023 the same frame ADH 2023 for over 3000 Sterlings? The same geometry, the same material added Dyneema only (but removed Basalt) , and less drilling and parts.
C) I will be switching from Ultegra mechanical 11 speed to Campagnolo Chorus 12 speed mechanical, maybe with Magura calipers. I simply love quality of mechanical , don't like electronic groupsets.Campagnolo ergonomy, and quality of shift both mechanical and electrronic is superior ans even faster than electronic, also they make top quality cassettes . Shimano and Sram hoods are disaster.
Good pints. FYI Campag calipers are Magura. They work really well, but you do get a bit of slop on initial bite.
@@MapdecVodcast I use smallest MTB Magura Mt4/Mt8, which are smaller.I've been using them with Shimano Ultegra at the moment, and they are perfect.
Why do you mention the Monaco elite ?! Irrelevant to the nth degree.
Quite a famous cycling group known for expensive bikes. 🤷♂️ who else is buying these groupsets? It’s not racers.
@@MapdecVodcast Fair point, but this cycling group can't be numerically large enough for a group set manufacturer to just sell to 'them". I agree the prices are ridiculous.
You have no idea or experience in how carbon composite frames are manufactured. Yet you claim to know here everything how they are manufactured, what materials are used, how they are Qc’d. From your click bait conversation, I doubt you have ever been to Asia and visited any frame manufacturer. Your nervous laughter adds to that lack of knowledge.
Very misleading on all accounts.
I think you need to elaborate if you make such claims.
‘So far this year we have seen about 2500 bikes come through this year ‘. ?? You don’t need much to do the maths. That’s on average 14 bikes per day…. For the size of your workshop and your staff count, the time it takes to record and edit YT stuff, seems a lot of BS.
To be fair some of that is just suspension work. 4 mechanics, 1 admin, 1 admin/video, 1 editor, 1 marketing. Plus freelance book keepers, and other associates. Oh. And me. 🤷♂️
Oh. We have 3 workshops. The grey one you see in this vid. The big one downstairs and the suspension room.