Who Is Lorkhan? - Elder Scrolls Lore
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ต.ค. 2024
- This being could be the saviour of the Elder Scrolls universe... or it's Satan. Elder Scrolls lore / discussion. Lorkhan, Elder Scrolls Skyrim lore.
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Well considering Sovengard really exist and the Nordic lorkhan, Shor appears to usually be there, it seems that he cares for his creations, perhaps more so then any other god
Peryite they don’t actually say humans go anywhere after death I mean they clearly do sovngarde is proof of that but it isn’t aetherius because that was only ever created for the gods and even they can’t enter anymore
@@jareddebeast sovngarde is a section in aetherius... just for atmoran/nordic warriors who died in battle but also if they lived like a true nord
@Based on what That sounds a lot like Valhalla, a waiting and training ground for warriors to fight in Ragnarok, and since the Nords are based on actual Nordic culture, it wouldn't surprise me.
@@ironhorse492 thats bc it is, the nords are based off the noise
Based
I feel like the elven perspective is too heavily relied upon...
That's because there aren't any other sources. The Elves where just the first ones to study and write all of this.
Ngl despite playing skyrim I never went too in depth into lore so I only knew the elf pov of this, hearing this pov makes a lot of sense.
It's pretty accepted that Lorkhan lied to the others gods.
As for Akatosh/Auri-El, it is also acknowledged by both sides that he killed Lorkhan once the betrayal was revealed.
But it's also pretty clear that he then blessed some men to rule in his stead instead of elves.
If anything, he must be a pragmatic. Or he has a plan on the long run.
Or maybe, Stendarr, as "the apologist of man", managed to reconcile the two sides after the first war between elf and man was over, and convinced Auri-El to rule over both.
Btw, if you follow Kirkbride's canon, Akatosh had an actual plan to prevent Nirn from completing its purpose by perpetually reseting (Alduin). In the end Lorkhan win and Akatosh, reduced to a tiny dragon in a cage, is erased as time and reality are unmade.
@@MaitreKorda I feel like, again, there's an overreliance on elven mythology in part thanks to it being the more detailed and widespread option. But ultimately it doesn't matter all that much since the fundamental reality of TES universe being completely maleable.
This has been my theory for some time:
The Aedra knew what they were getting themselves into. Only Lorkhan knew the last piece needed to sustain Nirn was the heart of a god. So at the end of their work, Lorkhan told Akatosh that his heart must be removed and given to the planet, like a power source. Grudgingly, Akatosh instructed Trinimac to do the deed, as it was impossible for a god to remove his own soul. The elves just twisted the story for propaganda.
Akatosh and Lorkhan were created as opposite equals. I have a tough time believing that Akatosh had no idea what was happening.
During the creation of Mundas, Magnus and many other lesser gods realized what was happening and left. Why didn’t the main 8 leave at the same time? Perhaps because they knew what they were doing?
That's a charitable way to view Auriel and Lorkhan's final encounter, but I don't dislike.
@@dominickholmes3721 maybe they wanted to or they said well fuck well no going back
Another theory for me is that there was no trickery involved. Lorkhan was simply bored with the unchanging stasis, and declared that to the et'Ada. This caused many to have an epiphany, and they participated in the creation of Mundus. However, some of them regretted their decision and antagonized Lorkhan, ultimately killing him.
I like this theory. If it were trickery, after all, the Aedra would be more likely to be resentful of the mortals, rather than supporting of them. It would also then better explain the Daedra, who knew not to help, but remained in order to carve out their own power within the newly made sphere.
The gods were just wizards trying to escape the simulation.
Runn I got a headache thinking about that lol
So on point.
Hmm...Can you elaborate, or suggest some reading??
@@boldbearings lets just say that the elders scrolls universe has MANY, MANY layers.
@@clamantstone More intrigue. Same question.
I believe Lorkhan wanted to create Mundus for others, but knew doing so would mean sacrificing his power. He did indeed trick the other et'Ada into helping, but I feel like it was more of a "I left out this little detail" kind of deceit rather than outright lying, but even so, I believe Lorkhan did so because he was looking at the bigger picture, i.e. he had to break a few eggs to make an omelet, or in this case, break a few gods to make a mortal plane.
By the time the gods realized they would have to sacrifice their power to finish the project, they either chose to peace out with Magnus and become Magna-Ge or say fuck it, go all in and become Aedra. Akatosh decided to go all in, but was still pretty pissed at Lorkhan. The two fought for a little bit until Akatosh ripped Lorkhan's heart out and shot it into the ocean, creating Red Mountain and accidentally finishing the project.
The reason the aedra and divines care about Mundus is because they're intrinsically invested in it, just like how a husband and wife are intrinsically invested in an unplanned pregnancy. They might be mad at each other, but now they have a responsibility. The biggest difference is that Akatosh and Lorkhan weren't fucking each other...at least not literally...probably.
The funny thing is that lorkhan didnt sacrafice anything lol. Hè let the other Aedra sacrafice themselves and his hearth was ripped out not sacraficed. Hè still wanders as a shezarinne on mundus
@@TheStatisfiedOne That's debatable. But even if you're right and he did not, his heart _is_ still the heart of the world. He may not have sacrificed of himself, but Mundus is his and would not exist without him.
Let’s be real here, Lorkhan cleaved Akatosh’s divine asshole on the regular
It was Trinimac who ripped out Lorkhan's heart
Auriel, Trinimac, Phynaster and Syrabane with their army the Elves vs Lorkhan, Arkay, Dibella, Kyne, Jhunal and Tsun with their army the Humans.
After m'aiq of course.
Ya beat me to it.
Ofcourse, every body know that maiq is the stronger thing in the elder scrolls universe
My theory is Lorkhan is the player character, and every time his creation is threatened he reforms to play out the games story.
Shezzarine.
This is the Type of Lore I love. Lorkhan can be interprated by Mer as Evil yet The Races of Men see him as their creator.
Lorkhan did nothing wrong
elves aren't the only ones the Redgaurds also regard Lorkhan as Satan and hate him just as much as the high elves do Vivec stated in his 36 sermins that Lorkhans purpose was realizing they we're not true gods and was attempting to achieve a state way higher than Chim
Either that, or lorkhan is just fooling everyone and Made everyone mortal so that sithis can collect souls
@@TheStatisfiedOne *lorkhan, god of trolling"
Chim probably stands for
Cocaine
Hemp
Injection
Meth
@@lukec2004
Well, he is called the "Trickster God"... Trinimac wasn't having his bullshit though 😅
Also the Dunmer believe that Lorkhan created the mortal realm for an opportunity for growth and achieve Chim.
I believe you avarti is the Savior of the elder scrolls
I think Lorkhan/Shor AND the Aedra are both fundamentally good.
The Aedra (or remaining modern gods, since Lorkhan and the Earth Bones are themselves Aedra) were p/o’d they were deceived and rightfully so. In their anger they rashly slew Lorkhan instead of taking a wiser, more reasoned approach.
Unlike the Christian (and Jewish) God, Yahweh, the gods of Mundus aren’t omnipotent and morally perfect. They can make mistakes, even if they do act benevolently in the overwhelming amount of cases. This imperfection is what led them to act out in rage against Lorkhan imo.
And it would seem Shor, in his afterlife form, is indeed tolerated by the Aedra and thus maintains Sovngarde in Aetherius suggesting some reconciliation with the Divines (albeit without canonical confirmation) .
Further, I would disagree that the Aedra are manipulative towards mortals. The mortals of Nirn are their brethren, in a sense, since the Et’Ada were Aedric spirits before being sapped of their power during creation. Both they and the Divines are not only bound to Mundus and Nirn, but are bound in a almost familial sense. They are thus protective of Mortals and share this protectiveness with Shor (whose closest allies were Stendarr/Stuhn, known to the Altmer as ‘The Apologist of Men’ and his brother Tsun).
With Stendarr himself, an Ally of Lorkhan in the Dawn era, being counted among the 8 it’s hard to argue that the Divines still hate Lorkhan and oppose his goals especially when both go out of their way to protect mortals from the Daedra and other evils.
“above all else, be good to eachother”-the divines
Kyne, Mara, Dibella, Julianos, Arkay and Zenithar were all also on Lorkhan/Shor's side as well along with Stendarr. Thats 8 out of the 9 divines being friends and standing by Lorkhan/Shor's side. Many of the lesser Gods such as Tsun, etc were also on Lorkhan/Shor's side. Akatosh, and his lesser God allies such as Trinimac, etc, were the only ones of the Aedra who may have been semi-opposed to Lorkhan/Shor, but honestly I don't think they really were against him either.
I think the Thalmor/High Elves revised a lot of the creation myths because they're still butt-hurt about Lorkhan creating Nirn and men, because the Thalmor have delusions of grandeur and view themselves as Gods trapped in mortal flesh because of Lorkhan and his creation. Trinimac may have been the only one who truly hated Lorkhan, but he was soon punished shortly there after for removing Lorkhan's heart and killing/betraying him, which is what lead to his eventual corruption of by Boethiah, and being "defecated" metaphorically, and formed into Malacath and cast out of Aetherius to join with the Daedra as a form of punishment for his actions against Lorkhan (Kinda similar to Merid Nunda being cast out of Aetherius as well by the Magna Ge, for her dealings with Daedra and other spirits, where she would become Meridia).
I don't think there was any trickery involved whatsoever in what Lorkhan/Shor did to create Mundus and Nirn. I think he and his other Aedra willingly sacrificed themselves to do so because they were tired of the status quo of divinity and bored with immortality. Basically, Lorkhan red-pilled the other divines, and they agreed with him and took the red pill. The Daedra are the ones who took the blue pill, and stayed behind in their status quo comfy safe spaces of Oblivion and immortality.
The Thalmor/High Elves simply twisted this creation origin to paint men in a bad light and use it as rhetoric against humans to justify their genocidal intentions against man. Lorkhan is Space, and Akatosh is Time. There is no strife or malice between them. All of the divines knew what they were getting into. Its just a matter of some (Aedra) being more committed to it than others (Magna Ge), and a 3rd group of others (Daedra) who refused to partake in the creation altogether. Whether or not the reason for the Daedra not partaking was simply out of fear of the unknown, or selfish and self-serving power hungry reasons, well never know.
What always irritated me with the Elf/Mer creation perspective is that it portrays Lorkhan as if he gave nothing up at all, and tricked all of the other Aedra into sacrificing themselves in his place while he laughed and ridiculed them and enjoyed all of the benefits without putting anything into it, whereas in actuality, Lorkhan sacrificed the most out of all of them, and he was the first to do so. There was no trickery involved at all. Lorkhan is the creator of Mundus and Nirn, and he is the hero to all men, who embrace mortality and the great unknown. This is why the Thalmor/Elves are butt-hurt and hate him. That's all.
Another interesting theory is that the Shezzarines (Pelinal Whitestrake, Ysmir, Tiber Septim, etc), characters we play as in all of the Elder Scrolls games (Cyrus, Nerevarine, Hero of Kvatch, Dragonborn, Vestige, etc), are all actually physical embodiments of Lorkhan/Shezarr/Shor/Sep. Whenever men are enslaved/genocided, or Nirn is at risk of complete destruction, a guardian hero embodiment Lorkhan rises once again to restore the balance and order of things, and right the wrongs. The 3 heroes (Ysmir, Wulfharth, and Tiber Septim) who would go on to achieve CHIM and become one, and then become the God who we now refer to as Talos, were all Shezzarines. So in a way, Talos mantled himself (Lorkhan), which is again why the Thalmor are so dead set against Talos(Lorkhan) worship.
@@jeremydubeck4439 Dude, The Hero of Kvatch (Imperial) and The Dragonborn (Nord) are Shezarrines, reincarnations of Shezarr/Shor/Lorkhan the God of Humanity because they are humans and the missing god has always sided with Humans, he is the Hero of Humankind and the Enemy of Elfkind and the Nerevarine (Dunmer) is the reincarnation of Indoril Nerevar (Chimer) it's in the name Nerevarine
@@jeremydubeck4439 Auriel and Akatosh aren't the same but different versions of Aka
@@jeremydubeck4439 Kyne, Mara, Dibella, Arkay, Jhunal, Tsun and Stuhn sided with Shezarr and fought against the Elven gods.
Wait wait wait...maybe dying was Lorkhans plan? Because he was a god and couldn't experience the Tower and the realization of divine self and individuality, perhaps he let Akatosh kill him, so he could experience all of that through the Shezzarines, such as the Nerevarine and Dragonborn. So wouldn't that mean us as the players are Lorkhan living out the lives he wished he could? That's just my theory.
And if Tiber Septim was genuinely a Shezarrine, then Lorkhan did finally achieve CHIM where he could not before.
Not to mention that another one, the Hero of Kvatch, became a Daedric Prince.
You convergently evolved this theory like hundreds of others.
I like this hypothesis. I do believe however that Lorkhan knew he would die and planned for it. Knowing that Nirn needed a God, he planned to be killed and for his heart to be what sustained it. He has incarnations to watch after his creation and so that he can experience it. He protects it from destruction from Aedric and daedric influences because he cares, created Sovangarde for his creation, and through his incarnations achieved Godhood (CHIM?)
Everything depends on what viewpoint you choose to view.
Akatosh (Auri-El) was trapped "eating his own tail forever", creating a Constant Timeline.
Auriel then killed Lorkhan for trapping them in Mundus.
All we gotta do is look at the moral actions of all parties;
LORKHAN:
Lied to the Et'Ada and tricked them into creating the world. Immoral action.
Auriel/Akatosh:
Murdered Lorkhan and a majority of his *Human* army, for creating Mundus. Also, an Immoral action, whether it's justified is debatable.
Now let's look at why these two did these things.
Lorkhan seemingly wanted to help Mortals achieve a state of being similar to himself, even before they existed.
Note that he never said that the Et'Ada could not leave after Mundus was made, so it is very possible that He did not know.
Let's also remember that Lorkhan is the Soul of Sithis, who is the Soul of Padomay. None of these beings are directly Evil. They simply represent Change.
(Sidenote, the Dark Brotherhood have a very skewed interpretation of Sithis, which is likely due to Mephala lying to them as she was the original Patron of their order)
Therefore, Lorkhan was never originally "evil". He only represents Change, which can be equally Good or Bad.
Auriel, though, was simply a Spirit at first. He was the Soul of Anui-El, who was the Soul of Anu (who is the godhead of the Universe, and thus everything else is an aspect of Him and his person)
Auriel agreed to help Lorkhan at the start, but as we established already, it's possible that none of the Et'Ada actually knew the risk.
As soon as Mundus was finished, instead of conversing with Lorkhan, the now-Aedra decided to discuss amongst themselves how they should *punish* Lorkhan for this. They opted to attempt to kill him. So it is no wonder that some of the Wandering Ehlnofey (Early Man) flocked to Lorkhan, as they had been rejected by the other "perfect" Ehlnofey (The Early Elves) for simply not being like them.
Therefore, Lorkhan acted in self-defence, and as we said it is totally possible that he only later discovered the real cost of his creation, but alike to his Nature, it is also possible that he knew all along.
Lorkhan was brutally murdered by both Auriel and Trinimac, his body being torn asunder which (debatably) became either Nirn itself or the Moons - and his Heart being thrown to the Seas.
The Aedra then chose to govern the now-Mortals who populated Nirn. As the Aedra now depended on mortal worship for power, they made the mortals worship them.
Now let's look at how Lorkahn (shor) looks after his Folk, while dead (Since apparently, even the Et'Ada can be present after death). Shor made Sovngarde in Aetherius for the Nords to go to instead of the Dreemsleeve, where the Aedra would make all mortals be Stripped of their memories and personalities. Shor lets the mortals in his charge keep their selves.
The Aedra could even be seen as the very things that keep Mortals from achieving CHIM, as CHIM requires you to be *individual* in the Dream, and the Aedra remove Individuality in the Dreemsleeve.
Therefore, even now they spite Lorkhan.
It is also important to remember that according to Michael Kirkbride (when he still worked at Bethesda), shortly after Oblivion released, Lorkhan is, in fact, Akatosh's other half.
So ultimately, Lorkhan sacrificed himself in order for mortals to excel and takes care of Mortals after death.
The Man Himself I see you’re points, but one the Gods don’t get power from worship only the ability to influence the mortals. Two I don’t believe doing good for one justifies doing evil on another. Everything in lore suggests Lorkan knew what he was doing so he betrayed and stole from is brethren. And I believe Akatosh cares for morals because their apart of him and the other Aedra.
Anu isn't a Godhead, he is a dreamer dreaming in the dream of the Godhead
If Lorkhan us a trickster, and he knew or found out what it took, then yes he's the bad guy.
He would've had a lot of time to tell the other Et'Ada what he was planning as they went under way, and given Magnus ran before it was too late, while the others were confused as to why he ran, and so went to Lorkhan.
As they see Lorkhan has lied, he had to be punished, but escaped, and when the Wandering Ehlnofey found Aldmeris as the gods were in a panic, the Old Ehlnofey wanted to stay as they were, and so they denied access.
The Wandering Ehlnofey apparently can't take no for an answer, and so forced themselves in, causing a fight, and Lorkhan saw this as his opportunity to go gather the Wanderers, and he likely told them his side of the story, and the Old Ehlnofey got the help of Auriel, as they knew his side of the story, and eventually, Lorkhan lost the war.
As you said, there's a lot of Morally Grey areas here, but at the end of the day, Lorkhan is why this all happened. Or rather, he's the reason things got to the point it did, as he decided to trick them in a way that simply couldn't be easily forgiven.
Did Auriel go too far? That's a better question, but undoubtedly, Lorkhan started the issue first, given we can surmise the situation through the gods reactions, their nature's, and how the fundamentals work.
We know more about this story than say, the Night of Tears situation, as we don't know who or why Saarthal was officially attacked, we only know the aftermath. With the Dawn Era events, we have more info to go off of, so it's easier to paint a picture
Of course, alternatively, you may be totally right, or perhaps wrong, or both of us are almost there 😅
@@Super50ldier she’s both
@@Super50ldier lorhkan shor and shezarr are same thing you could say or aspect of same god. Thought shor was sooner then shezarr. Shezzar is around Alessian empire while shor was before even landing of Ysgramor. Even kynareth is aleassian while nords Prayed to Kyne
So... for mer Lorkhan is Loki, and for men Lorkhan is Odin.
Whether Lorkhan is good or evil (or more realistically, where on the scale he falls) depends on your philosophical perspective.
The people he helped didn't exist before he helped them and if he hadn't helped them they would never exist, in a sense Lorkhan could be considered the ultimate evil for harming others (the aedra) to create people that would harm each other. Lorkhan is therefore the original cause of all evil, but also of all good.
I'm inclined to think of Lorkhan as evil rather than good, but without him there would be no Mundus, no different races, and therefore no TES games.
I agree with this. Lorkhan is mostly evil, but a necesary evil, like Sithis. He's a Loki-like character. Lorkhan is the soul of Sithis, the same way Akatosh is the soul of Anui-El. Sithis is... not good, but is necesary. Without Sithis there couldn't be change and everything would be one. Lorkhan IS the source of all suffering and stugle, but that struggle is what gives meaning to existence.
@@Auriel_Direnni and that struggle is what makes man or mer strong. Dovahkin, the hero of kavatch, nerevar and even pelinal whitestrake went through enough suffering to get super strong. If the character doesnt struggle they don't grow and become strong which is the embodiment of lorkhan the god of bloody battles and father of men.
Kami Sama but u dont get the point. Why even creating suffering from the beginning? If lorkhan didnt create mortality, suffering then wouldnt it be better?
@@TheStatisfiedOne i mean if u have 2 choices that is to live with suffering or not live at all I'll choose suffering any day and you get stronger and smarter with every weong decision u make through life and suffer for it.
Kami Sama i understand What u mean. But how do u know that Humans before being mortal and suffer where non excistent? Maybe they where better off without being mortal and vulnerable, maybe they lived but as immortal spirits
Shor did have many of gods on his side. They are Kyne, Mara, Stuhn, Tsun, Debella, and Jhunal. That has to count for something.
Yep. I think Auriel/Akatosh is the true villain, a usurper.
@@HickoryDickory86 Shezarr/Lorkhan is the true Hero God.
@@HickoryDickory86 Akatosh is not Auri-El. Akatosh is the Imperial version of Alduin and Auri-El.
@@Super50ldier I know this. But despite that fact, Akatosh is the Man aspect of the Mer Auriel, hence their pairing. It's for convenience sake without having to do a full lore breakdown every f--king time they're mentioned.
@@HickoryDickory86 Xarxes is the Mer aspect of the Man Arkay.
The best theory about Akatosh/Auriel is that there was the original time god called Aka. Time by definition is Infinite. However the creation of mundus broke Aka as time was placed restrictions on it. Time had a beginning who became Auriel, a continouation of time called Akatosh and an end to time called Alduin. This created the calpa of time ,from creation to end and then the cycle repeats itself. Auriel, Akatosh and Alduin are different aspects of time, Auriel the beginning, Akatosh the continuation and Alduin the end.
By azura by azura by azura its the great champion of universe
Shor to me is the only god worth worshiping. He made the entire world. Without him our characters wouldn't exist. He gave us the ability to have existence and to better ourselves.
As a Nord my character in all the games is 100% a follower of Shor.
amen fellow nordic brother
Give me some of that candy the Khajits are selling
Mai’iq and Ai’iq!
I also agree that Lorkhan is good, and the creation is also good. The mortal life gives meaning to the eternal life, and vice versa. Is good that he is not forgotten, and i believe that the All-Maker is Lorkhan. He also seems to care for his creation, after all cost his life. As you said, Akatosh may have seek revenge, but he and the other gods eventually learned to love their creation.
You can hear the Heart of Lorkhan beating faintly in Morrowind's dwemer ruins if you listen closely to the lava with headphones.
Lorkhan is Sheogorath and Akatosh is Jiggalag. All the Aedra are the Daedra before the first rift that separated dremora and mer. The mer are the physical while the dremora are the mental aspect of the same creatures yet both exist simultaneously in separate but overlapping dimensions. So too are the Aedra and Daedra. This is also why Sheogorath made musical instruments out of a person, like Lorkhan making the sounds of creation, to make their entire body become more creative. Jiggalag is Akatosh and by extension Alduin.
The old Nordic pantheon in TES supports this well with shor (lorkhan) being the trickster god (the fox totem) and their patron deity, and akatosh manifests as the dragon totem (alduin) who would destroy the world, quite literally resetting time indefinitely could be in a way akatosh’s revenge on lorkhan
My theory is that Lorkan didn't spread his plan to each divine himself, but it spread like a school rumor, with his message being distorted the further down the chain one is. Some divines gave themselves willingly, while others that where misinformed believed themselves tricked. This meant that the ehlnofey who willingly gave up their power gave it all, becoming the wandering ehlnofey that would eventually become the races of men. Meanwhile, those believing themselves tricked struggled to maintain what little power they could, becoming the old ehlnefey, and eventually the races of elves. This is why elves have longer lifespans, and more clearly remember themselves to be decendents of aedra. In short both sides are kinda right.
I hardly see Akatosh as a benevolent god, almost killing Lorkhan and creating dragons. He wants prayers to keep him powerful
He's just a usurper just to become more powerful not a god
Akatosh and Auriel aren't the same god they're different because Anu created Akatosh after Nirn was created before Auriel received his shield from Anuiel before his war against Shezarr/Lorkhan aka Shor and the Human Gods and Akatosh sided with the Humans?
If two beings are strong enough to create a new soul together, being a child, then isn't it possible that if an entire race believes in a religion it too becomes the truth. The gods are nothing more than powerful spirits after all and mortals can already summon things into existance through shear willpower. One determined vampire is enough to create a prophecy powerfull enough to determine the faith of the world, so imagine the power of a whole country or even continent. Is it therefor wrong for me to amuse that the gods in the elder scrolls did not create man, but man created the gods. So every interpretation is correct, as long as you believe in it.
This is somewhat true from the simple fact that gods are only as powerful as their followers count (mortal souls). Lorkhan knew what he was doing🤷🏽♂️
This is true for the Aedra, yes, as they are reliant on the worship of mortals for their power and influence in the world. But it is not true of beings like the Daedra, who retain their own inherent power and identities.
It would be interesting, though, to know whether or not an increasing number of worshippers makes a Daedric Prince more powerful than they otherwise would be. 🤔
@@HickoryDickory86 I think the daedric princes already have total dominion of their domains and thus don't benefit much in oblivion from having more followers, but they also can't directly influence Mundus and so I think sometimes when they get bored they use mortal followers to do things in Mundus that they wouldn't be able to do otherwise.
@@weniswarrior666 Nowhere is it said that the Daedra cannot influence Mundus. They cannot be a direct threat to Mundus, but that is directly tied to the Dragon Fires remaining lit and Akatosh's barrier being kept up (which is no longer the case, for whatever reason can be drawn from _Oblivion's_ conclusion). But the Daedra can very much _influence_ the world all they want. And even when the barrier was up and active, they sometimes proved to be a very real threat, even on large scales.
Some examples of both circumstances are:
1. Daedra being thoroughly integrated into the Khajiiti pantheon, with no distinction drawn between them and Aedra. Azura is believed to be the creator of the Khajiit race, and many of their rituals are ascribed to her.
2. Daedra also were integrated into the Ayleid pantheon, and one city wholly dedicated to the worship of Molag Bal was destroyed by Meridia.
3. The original Chimer pantheon was purely Daedric (Azura, Mephala, and Boethiah). Azura cursed the Chimer for the sins of the Tribunal, changing them into the Dunmer.
4. Boethiah battled Trinimac and changed him into Malacath, which likewise changed his Aldmeri followers into the Orsimer.
5. Sheogorath, in retaliation against something Vivec had done, flung a meteor (Baar Dau) at Vivec City. Vivec did halt it, but was incapable of dissipating its momentum. So, when his powers waned and vanished, it eventually continued its descent. The impact caused the eruption of Red Mountain and the Red Year, burying all of Vvardenfell in ash and lava.
6. Molag Bal created the vampires.
7. Hircine created werecreatures, and likely is the power source for creating hagravens and briarhearts as well.
8. Nocturnal is Lady Luck, and she very much has a strong influence in Mundus (just ask the thieves).
9. One of the "acceptable blasphemies" in the first edition of the _Pocket Guide to the Empire_ hails Meridia as the one "who contains the plenum." Arguably, that means Imperial theology regards Meridia as playing an integral role in the sustainability and viability of Mundus.
Just wanted to say that in Christianity Jesus isn't a prophet but God in Human flesh. So it's not a 1 to 1 comparison although I understand what you were getting at!
I think the narrative of Lorkhan being ‘evil’ is just the thalmor’s attempt at Gnosticism lol
You really know how to explain lore. Great vid Avarti :) I was hoping you would bring up this topic
Ironic how the god called a trickster and selfish by the elves is also the only god to sacrifice himself to create the very existence they enjoy. He didnt care about being an all powerful deity nor forcing people to worship him, the only one willing to sacrifice his power to create life itself. He cared about his creation enough to not give up on them despite the result being the lose of his power.
They consider him a trickster and selfish because the Mer, or the Elves, actually HATE Tamriel and Nirn and the physical plane. They believe that Lorkan forced their souls into the mortal plane, and that the “Ancestors” of the Mer were angelic beings that lived perfect existences.
The way the Mer view it, Lorkhan **Stole** the souls of the Mer and destroyed their once perfect angelic life.
The Gods are limitless...Lorkhan was sickened at their boundlessness after roaming the dark and knowing Padhome. He devised a plan to have the Gods learn the opposite of limitlessness through what would be called mortality; limitation.
The Psijic Endeavor was born for mortals to tread to learn both sides of that coin as well as all possibilities and experiences which is CHIM. Mortals are simply the vessels for divine spirits, the same as spirits as the Gods. CHIM is a mortal no longer simply being a mortal or even a God, but something transcending both.
Lorkhan learned what a God should not know by their very nature: death. Each and every spirit will achieve CHIM in due time as the Wheel turns.
One of the few youtube videos that i watch the entirety of.
The same way Mehrunes Dagon destroy because he's the Prince of Destruction, Lorkhan created the containment because his nature is containment and limiting. He just did what he existed to do, not for good or evil.
Lorkan invented memes
I keep having to restart the video because I’m having too much fun reading the comments. You’re all great
I always wanted to play as a monk of Lorkhan, but never figured out how to do it Lore wise.
Bretons: He did good and bad I don't mind the guy
Todd Howard
Todd Howard
I know who Lorkhan is. He is Todd Howard.
Do you think Lorkhan is, in some ways, tbe first player character?
Shor will rise up, RISE LIKE MIGHTY TALOS! IT IS HE WHO WILL SAVE ALL OF MAN!
Talos, Jigalag and Shor will save the day.
talos does not care, he is beyond the power of gods (while still not being one) and the elven gods are are stronger
@@mythshark409 No, Shezarr will come back to help Humanity in battle against Elvenkind like he has done in the Merethic Era fighting the Ayleids on Nedes behalf and the Imperials helping Alessia in leading her rebellion against the Ayleids and will appear during the Second Great War.
@@mythshark409 Talos is infinitely more powerful than the elven gods He endorsed lorkhan He became the wheel of creation and possesses the CHIM
Basically he's the elder scrolls equivalent of the Egyptian God Ptah.
"lorkin' its "lore-khan"
What if Lorkhan had no idea it would drain their powers too much? What if he wanted to create Mundus just to share a new world with his brethren? Magnus just left once he discovered it and the rest assumed Lorkhan knew and deceived them. Or by the time Mundus was finished they realized they used too much power and blamed him for getting them stuck.
@@Observant213 They are his brethren in the Imperial Pantheon and Khajiiti Pantheon.
I am one of defenders of Lorkhan. everything in TES lore is shades of grey and I doubt Lorkhan is the exception
I think he created it because he wanted chaos (he was created by sithis after all to do that) so he depleted some of the major gods powers and created a plain of existence which was very chaotic
Wait, why didn't you mention how Lorkhan was created by Sithis?(seemingly for the purpose of aiding him to take back the universe from the other divine beings that Sithis has accidentally created by the mixing of his and Anu-El's energies)
And that later, Lorkhan betrayed Sithis, instead creating his own world with the help of the to-be-Aedras. Heck, from what I understand, the reasons for how hard it is for Daedras to interfere in Nirn were likely designed for the purpose of stopping Sithis from reshaping Nirn as he see fit.
How did lorkhan betray sithis? Lorkahn created mortality wich means certain death at Some point, wich also means that sithis can collect them. Whatever lorkhan is doing hè probably thinks hè is doing his own thing but in fact hè is executing the Will of sithis
Out of curiosity, what dnd alignment would you guys attribute to Lorkhan and why?
In many ways I see a parallel between Lorkhan and Prometheus
Wasn't he created by the void God himself? I would say he is necessarily evil as this is just a mortals view of morality but he is not really close to a Jesus like character
Sithis isn't Good or Evil, the Dark Brotherhood is just edgy. The Void simple exists, that is all. It was there before the Tower and will be there when it crumbles.
This video gave me hypoxia. Consider not editing out every intake of breath on future narrations. Once you hear it, you can't unhear.
Maybe it’s why Alduin why was created, by ending the world using dragons or more specifically Alduin, Akatosh hopes to destroy Mundus/Nirn to bring back all the strength he and his fellow Aedra lost during its creation. Alduin failed to do this and was cast outside of time using an Elder Scroll and even though Akatosh is the god of time he couldn’t reach Alduin because Alduin was outside the boundaries of time. This means the only reason why Akatosh stopped Mehrunes-Dagon from conquering Nirn was so that Dagon wouldn’t prevent the Aedra from getting their power back and PROTECT the people of Mundus. This may actually explain the reason why the Dunmer people worship the Daedra instead of the Aedra. The Daedra(with the exception of Molag-Bal) actually have a desire to help Nirn, this explains the existence of gods like Azura, Peryite, and Meridia. Some others may be seen as evil but actually a lot of the known Daedra embody a form of mortal nature, Dagon=Ambition
Sanguine=Hedonism
Clavicus=Desire
Also, most of the Daedra are pissed as hell when you kill their followers, an example being Malacath (even though he’s technically not a Daedra) yet if you kill a vigil of Stendarr he does nothing. Doesn’t even send a small aspect of himself if slaughtered the whole hall of em. But hey, I’m just guessing. See ya
Looking into Kalpa's and Alduin's Role in ushering in a new Kalpa/ convention might be of interest to you. As for the Aedra not acting, it seems to be the consensus that the Aedra have bascially gone into a comatose/ near death state after investing so much of themselves into Nirn. At this point, bestowing basic blessings on a day to day basis is all they can really do, unless they are supplied with a significant source of external power, allowing them to briefly manifest themself (Martin shattering the amulet of kings)
@@Mikethehamham The exception and thus problem to this being Talos.
Completely with you on this one, also i thought that one of Lorkhans purposes was to create true individuality and so Alduin choosing his own path with his own desire was Lorkhan once again proving his point to Akatosh, who was probably shocked af. From here i've only got speculation but my general idea is that had Akatosh been left to create and rule the universe how he saw it essentially it would be a definitive ordered universe whereby because time is set one cannot act outside of ones own akatosh written destiny, essentially rendering everything as already having happened and everyone as a robot or script. Lorkhan comes into the picture and performs inception on everyone which leads to their own choices and desires, which can be said to be the cause of suffering but also is the foundation of our very existence.
Alduin just brings back the cycle.....another Nirn is born.
@@LilHaze117 Alduin is the Nordic version of Akatosh.
Lorkhan did nothing wrong
@@Super50ldier Lorkhan's primary goal It was the CHIM Let everyone become aware of the dreamer It had to go through mortality Since the aedra were unable to understand this They killed him But in reality lorkhan was looking for Freedom Who cannot be accomplished except by the way of the amaranth He had clear knowledge of reality as it is And want to share this But for this the sacrifice of one's own divinity is necessary.
@@lordshadow9433 What? It was the CHIM Let everyone become aware of the dreamer?
My current character believes that Lorkhan was betrayed because akatosh wanted to be the upper god. So my character doesnt like the aedra or deadra and wants to become so powerfull that he could one day defeat them and take over.
The real red pill: the mythic dawn is right; mundus is Lorkhans daedric realm
Wait, I thought humans were descendants of the Wandering Ehlnofey while the elves were descended from the original Ehlnofey. Which makes sense because maybe the Wandering Ehlnofey grew to appreciate Nirn for what it was since they saw the beauty of it all and the significance of Lorkhan’s sacrifice. Yet the original Ehlnofey stayed in one place still embittered by their weakened state who they blame squarely on Lorkhan.
Yes, they're somewhat contradicting origin stories. The human tale contradicts the Anuad (despite the fact the Anuad is universal). You could make it make sense as Lorkhan rallied the scattered wandering Ehlnofey, giving them his attributes, and going to war against the Old Ehlnofey who were ruled by Auri-El. In the end the Elves won and Auri-El killed Lorkhan.
@@Auriel_Direnni No, Auri-El did not kill Lorkhan/Shezarr, Trinimac is the one that killed Lorkhan.
@@Auriel_Direnni But Lorkhan can't be killed, he is missing he only appears to help Humanity in their struggles against Elvenkind in their time of need.
@@Auriel_Direnni Why are you so biased against Shezarr/Lorkhan???
@@Super50ldier Cause he sucks. He's a trickster god, enemy of akatosh, the main god of most of the races (including bretons and imperials'). Redguards absolutely loathe Lorkan too, BTW. And Lorkhan's whole thing is you must suffer to become something else. And like... bitch, no one asked me if I wanted to suffer or become something else.
0:55 me rubbing my eyes for a good 2 second...
oh shit i'm going blind!
The Daedra being born from Sithis embody chaos, creativity and change, the Aedra being born from both Sithis and Anui-El embody change and stasis but are drawn more strongly towards stasis. Mortal life is the epitome of chaos, change and free will, its no wonder Lorkhan liked the idea. The Aedra would naturally oppose this being closer in nature to Anui-El than Sithis. Becoming mortal (The divines are powerful but mortal), losing much of their power is about as big a change as could have happened, they panicked and lashed out, killing Lorkhan.
He had appealed to the creative nature they shared through SIthis to convince them to create Nirn, they in turn provided his creativity with focus drawn from their Anuic half. This nature remained a part of them and it is through it that they eventually connected with the mortal races in much the same way that Lorkhan had connected with the idea of mortality. Without the sacrifice that took from them their power and immortality they would not understand nor be able to sympathize with mortals. Daedra remain immortal and have all their power, therefore they can neither understand mortals nor genuinely sympathize with them ..
..That's how I understand it anyway.
To be honest i always thaught that lorkhans move was really padomaic and hè executed the Will of sithis, why? Because first hè Made the etada mortal,
In sucha fact that they are almost dead. 2ndly because of this hè also Made way for the excistence of the daedra who only bring chaos in a planet that is also filled with chaotic Humans. Mortal means certain death at one point, wich also means that sithis can collect theyre souls, wich also means that sithis is succeeding in his plans, wich also means that even tho how powerfull lorkhan is still has no free will if u look at the bigger picture. Even the khajits said that lorkhan was not in control when creating this trickery
@@TheStatisfiedOne Someone has been reading _Sithis_ in the Falkreath sanctuary. 😁
@@TheStatisfiedOne The Imperials believe that humans were created from nothing by Shezarr aka Lorkhan the Missing God, so to Humanity, Lorkhan is the God of Mankind.
Except Jesus was NOT misunderstood. He made Himself perfectly clear to all. And ot was the truth that endangered the Jewish hegemony.
I don’t believe a word of the elves. They’ve been shown to lie about the creation myth, and the aldmer aligned mer have a one sided view of anuic and padamaic sources of creation. Change is not evil, change is a the agent that removes stagnation, stagnation is the character flaw of most mer stuck in the past. #ShorDinduNuffin
Well, yes that’s exactly why they lie and generally just don’t care about the other races. They view their mortal existence on Tamriel as a disease, their once perfect, angelic lives now a thing of the long distant past.
They hate Lorkhan for destroying what they viewed as eternal paradise, and that’s why the Mer hate change so much. They want to go back to the beginning when they were just energy existing in the Ethereal plane.
Lorkhan created mundus not the Aurbis
That end bit started reminding me of Mankar Camoran a bit
It's possible that the lies about the creation of Mundus are on both sides, and unfortunately we can't know the truth. There is a thing that bothered me from the first time I heard about how Trinimac became Malacath: Boethiah and the other two (Azura and Mephala) were outraged by the lies Trinimac and his gang were spreading (to the aldmer) about Lorkhan. What lies? About the creation, of course. This is why the dunmer have other views on Lorkhan and their life on Mundus.
Regarding the Aedra - they have each a plane (planet) in Mundus. Nirn is Lorkhan's and his heart belongs to Nirn. The two moons are also part of his body. This is why he has "more" power than other Aedras on Nirn (and can walk the earth as a Shezzarine). Probably most Aedras can on their planes.
In my opinion the Aedra are not intrinsically good, they just have to shield Mundus and their planets from the Daedra. Because any interference the Daedra would have on Nirn, would make their planes more vulnerable. And also, the more worshipers they can get, the better.
I disagree with a few of your points here
Lorkhan is absolutely not representative of the god of Christianity not Jesus in our world, Lorkhan is very much a gnostic-influenced character. You should do some reading on real world gnosticism if you wanna understand Lorkhan. Lorkhan is the demiurge, an imperfect but powerful creator being that created the material world but is Inherently flawed, gnostics view this as the god of the old testament. A similarity between the elder Scrolls and gnosticism is how the demiurge/Lorkhan is viewed, to some the demiurge is simply flawed, to others he is directly evil, just like the difference in opinion in elder Scrolls.
Furthermore, gnosticism links to CHIM, you're essentially achieving gnosis, realisation that the world is a created reality and we don't truly exist, only in gnosticism the goal is to free yourself from reality (like the altmer want) whereas CHIM is essentially maintaining an ego in spite of this realisation.
Michael Kirkbride is such a crazy fucker, and he's an confirmed gnostic and Thelemite, esotericism has had such an influence on elder Scrolls and I thought it was worth mentioning
I do not agree with attributing the role of the Gnostic demiurge to Lorkhan It suits Auriel rather He is clearly a belligerent and angry god Who has a pseudo chosen people the elves Lorkhan meanwhile would rather refer to Lucifer or Prometheus He who seeks to bring knowledge and light And above all freedom The prognostic myths take up the thesis of a matrix Of which Christ would have come to bring us the knowledge to free us from it Lorkhan As for him understands the illusion of this fictional world And seek to free themselves from it via the CHIM amaranth ect One can clearly draw parallels And the concept of a creator demiurge of matter in The Elder Scroll And anyway obsolete from the moment everything is a dream So no existence of its own
@@lordshadow9433 really good points actually you might be right
There is a book called the Dragon Break, which describes how mortals changed the nature of the Divines. Supposedly, before the rise of Alessia, the Divines were uncaring of men, and favored only mer. Mer ruled over men as Kings and Masters, often treating humans as little more than slaves. Even in Atmora, or Akavir, and the land Redguards came from (cant remember lol), man suffered at the whims of greater creatures. So a cult of rebellious humans called the Marukahti (think I spelled it right) stole and studied elven magic as well as invented their own.
Somehow, collectively, the Marukhati was able to view the Wheel of the World as the Tower, and danced on top of it. This attracted the attention of Akatosh, chief of Divines, and then.... he “broke”? It’s unclear what this means, but afterwards Akatosh showed more favor to humans, elevating them as equals and sometimes greater than mer.
Why? Perhaps the Marukhati’s dance enthralled Akatosh to some spell to change him. Perhaps Akatosh, in fear, agreed to show favor to humans more so the dance would stop, as it shook the Tower so much the Wheel itself might be destroyed.
Or perhaps Akatosh saw the Tower only because the Marukhati were able to accomplish such an impossible feat; so in humility Akatosh gained admiration for humans, whom he though were mere spawn of Lorkhan’s remnants.
Regardless, Akatosh forever changed his treatment of humans and so did the rest of the Divines afterwards. But the Dance on the Tower almost really did destroy Nirn! The homeland of the Redguards sank into the sea, Atmora began to slowly freeze completely, and Akavir became inhospitable for the Akaviri and they all sailed to Tamriel. And even Tamriel was racked with calamities for centuries both magical and natural. After the Dragon Break, Akatosh supposedly erased all memory of the event, or rewound time to the point just before the Dance on the Tower so order could be restored.
Supposedly.
Have you read David Gemmel's books? The winter warriors (spoiler alert coming) is a book about the two demons who fought, Anharat is the typical demon and his brother fought for the humans (bred with one, hence the powerful people in the books) against Anharat and bested the entire race of "demons". He did this by dying. The demons are immortal and cannot die, but dying releases a massive amount of power, enough to make a new universe for the entire race, one where they have a future, since humans are adaptable and would eventually learn how to exterminate the demons permanently, it would be just a matter of time. And over infinity, any finite stretch of time is no different to immediately.
That was 1997.
When you connect the dots and realize that the hatred of the Aldmeri against Lorkhan/Talos/The 9th Divine comes from their desire to end Mundus and regain their supposed godhood
They're not just Nazi analogues, they're also a literal doomsday cult
When elder scrolls lore is just occult lore lol
I kind of think that Akatosh killed Lorkhan because that was apart of lorkhans plan without lorkhan dying he couldn’t be remade into Talos by the Numidium.
Akatosh gave Lorkhan the gift of death. You say yourself you have to be mortal and realize life and death are cyclical. Maybe he tried to enable Lorkhan to grasp at CHIM?
Great video. One thing though- I’m pretty sure it’s pronounced lore-KHAN not lore-kin. Also CHIM is pronounced with the ch being as the word chronic is pronounced rather than the ch in cheese.
Man: Lorkhan was good
Mer: Lorkhan was bad
Avarti: *Lorkhan was Jesus*
I know the “aedra” are supposed to be good but I kinda agree with Manker Cameron idea of the gods being weak. Selfish pricks I say
i like this i like that were debating this
If as some of the elves suggest that type of septum is an avatar of Lorkhan, and as a Dragonborn he would have the blessing of akatosh, why would akatosh bless the reincarnate of his greatest enemy?
I suggest that perhaps akatosh did slay lorkhan, but it was at the request of lorkhan. Perhaps lorkhan wanted to experience existence as a mortal but had to die in order to do so.
@@Kayjoir Because quite simply behind Akatosh there would be lorkhan Akatosh is both Lorkhan and Auriel He is a god totally tortured by his schizophrenia and his duality Constantly wavering between order and change Do not rely only on imperial propaganda Find out about The Marukhati sect The Dragon's Break and How It Affected the Time God's Personality
akatosh knew what he was getting into and upon nearing completion of the mortal plane would suffer no rival lorkan being his equal opposite had to be slain and as we all know history is written by the victors
Amazing man, this is one of my favorite characters in all of the Elder Scrolls lore. It is good to see a video dedicated to such an interesting piece of lore. Great job and great video you the shit dude.
All Gods are evil, all of them only want to live for the selves, except for Lorkhan who sacrificed himself to create a plane for the mortals
So I'm pretty late to this but maybe the reason lorkhan tricked the aedra is because he views them as less than mortal since they are unable to transcend their existence.
or hes you in eveery game
you sound so fucking stupid
Khajiit worship lorkhan, and Rajin.
I worship Mephala. Aspect of Lorkhan. Hail Sithis
Avarti's next video: why akatosh is an idiot.
praise lorkahn
I believe that lorkhan is a misunderstood good figure. He saw the meaninglessness of infinite life and power, when there was nothing to do with it. To realize "chim", he convinced his fellow gods to create a realm where they could find purpose for themselves. It is the other gods who are foolish for believing that creating something from nothing would not drain them. Otherwise the daedra would have no reason to not help lorkhan. And in their selfishness and stupidity, the other gods abandoned the project midway, leaving nirn a half baked soggy cookie. So indirectly, the et'ada are the reason for all evil, as leaving nirn in its unfinished state is the root of all the flaws and conflicts in nirn. And are thus the most evil of all. But all gods came from the same source. Daedra and aedra alike are all deceivers and liars. For example, tes5 paints nocturnal in a somewhat trustworthy light. But in eso she is a complete villain. As for akatosh, he knew killing lorkhan, and further damaging the contributors to nirn would only cause more havoc. Yet in his shortsightedness he slew lorkhan anyway, stripping all mortals of their patron god, and dooming them to suffer. None of the gods are trustworthy or good. The only one who can be trusted is lorkhan, since that is the only god who has both his mind and his being invested into all mortals from the very start. And he is dead.
If there is good , there must be evil , thats just the nature of TES Omniverse , Aurbis is the grey centre where padomay and Anu meets , thus it have both , good and evil , peace and chaos , life and death e.t.c.
Does your character just... not have skin?
Lorkhan is very interesting and also one of the most controversial of the gods. I honestly think lorkhan is in the middle of morality. He did bad and good deeds but ultimately ended up good at the end. The elves are crazy. They just think everything revolves around them, and hate people "below" them. The dunmer are an exception and the orcs too, but the bosmer, altmer, falmer, ayleids, and dwemer all think too highly of themselves. The altmer have lost so many times over to other races, yet just because of one victory they think they are tactical geniuses. The bosmer literally eat each other. The dwemer literally disappeared entirely because they were too powerful. The falmer were extremely aggressive to the nords, which got them killed in the end. At least the dunmer aren't constantly at war with everyone and constantly losing. They have been at war, obviously, but they don't constantly battle everyone. What happens in Morrowind usually stays in Morrowind. The orcs literally avoid society almost entirely, building strongholds and also living in orsinium.
The falmer attacked the nords literally once (in an admittedly horrible way) but the response was tantamount to genocide
F in chat for Shor
and we have the void : Sithis
Sithis is not the void, he is an entity and soul of Padomay.
Lorkhan was created by sithis to undo Anu El's creations..so lorkhans plan must of been to destroy the other gods and return everything back to the void.
No, Lorkhan's plan was to create the Mundus with the other gods and to allow mortals to achieve Chim.
Avarti knows much, tells some.
Savior not really more like the founder/creater
When are they gonna reveal the true god, Beth?
Are Lorkhan and Shor the same person?
Lorkhan is my favorite
Avarti uploads a video = You watch :-)
Lorkan is Prometheus