ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 ก.พ. 2025
- 2019 and 2020 have both seen an increase in the power level of Magic cards... but also an increase in the number of bans across all formats. The fellas gather in the REC Room for a casual discussion about their thoughts and concerns about how Power Creep affects Magic and the Commander format, and their hopes for the future of card design.
Follow the cast on Twitter:
@EDHRECast
@JosephMSchultz
@danaroach
@mathimus55
edhrec.com/
I believe power creep's biggest problem is that it increases the distance between jank and good cards, thus making the fun weird cards even less playable (jank card X could compete with decks running powerful cards Y, but cant compete with Y+1)
Power creep's only problem period is that it means that if you want to play the strongest version of your deck, you need to buy new cards. If you're playing with jank and you're expecting to win against optimized decks, your expectation is unreasonable on its face. That's not to say that playing with jank is wrong, or that you shouldn't brew fun, goofy decks with fun, goofy cards. But if it feels impossible to win with the deck you're playing because your opponents' decks are stronger, and that legitimately bothers you, you're probably going to have to choose whether a better chance of winning is more important to you than playing your janky brew. Or you could just find a playgroup that plays at your power level.
Super agree. It used to be you could skip a couple of the most powerful cards in a color and still be alright. If your playgroup is a little more focused that may not be the case anymore.
@@mathimus55 I think that's simply a matter of how popular the format's become. With more people building more tuned decks, you have to either accept that your sub-optimal brew probably won't win many games, or build something a bit closer to your meta.
It can be resolved by finding the right play group. I believe most people are 75% or casual-er, cEDH is the minority.
@@Cyberium Absolutely. Most of the complaints aren't about cEDH at all, though. They're more about the fact that the playgroup folks are playing with is running at a different, probably higher, power level in the casual range than they are, and they don't want to have to put in the work of building stronger decks or finding a playgroup more on their level.
If people aren't willing to build decks to fit their meta, or find a new meta that fits their level of play, then they're the problem.
My Feldon deck is a labor of love honed over years to circumvent the weaknesses of mono red and go off in crazy explosive ways. My Korvold deck is a pile of cards, I took the precons and threw in a bunch of aristocrats pieces I thought would go good. The Korvold deck is a fucking menace every game I play, my beloved Feldon deck can no longer compete at your average table. It's pretty depressing
Been there. No amount of tuning can keep up with some engines that are rolled into some commanders, which I think is what Dana's biggest frustration was.
As a Feldon player myself, I feel ya
@@mathimus55 It really depends on the power level you're starting at. If you're playing with a commander that would be considered, at best, a three out of ten in terms of power, you only have so much range on that scale in which to tune. Having more colors increases your range, as does having a larger budget.
I find the biggest problem people have with power creep in EDH isn't really that it makes their decks unplayable, because it doesn't. It's that players invest their time and feelings into building a deck, and don't like that not everyone brews decks that theirs can compete with.
However for some reason EDH players in particular seem to be attached to this notion that ours is a format of goofy, janky decks lovingly crafted to fit some unanimously decided upon 'spirit of the format.' There is no real 'spirit of the format,' and the majority of players aren't building their decks remotely on the same level. The closest you get to an even playing field is CEDH, because at least in that one specific case there is a stated intention to play the spikiest version of the format possible.
EDH has the most deckbuilding variety possible, at least as far as I can tell. It's no surprise that within that almost infinite variety, many people build decks that really shouldn't interact with one another if the players are looking for a 'fair' game.
Hope you guys keep playing your feldon decks, but I get it sometimes there's just no way
Makes it all the more fun when you pop off with your finely tuned Feldon deck to catch someone with their pants down on turn 2 with an Eldrazi Annhilator.
We BADLY need a new Power Creep Episode after the last 4 years.
Hi, I'm from 2030. No, humans haven't landed on Mars yet. However, we now have 1-mana 4/4s with hexproof and trample that draw you a card when they enter the battlefield or die.
No haste? Get with the times bro. It's 2031
At uncommon
Thunder Mlee Uncommon? No, no. These new 1-mana 4/4s with hexproof and trample are exclusive but standard-legal buy-a-box promos, and everyone needs a playset of them. 😉
Now available in Blue!
I'm from 2069 and I fondly remember the days of 1-mana 4/4s with hexproof and trample that draw you a card when they enter the battlefield or die.
Now they pale in comparison to the standard of 2 phryrexian (colorless, yes colorless) mana 3/3s with hexproof, haste, lifelink and flying that draw you a card for each point of life lost/gained.
EDHREC Cast: Today's topic Power Creep!
K'rrik: **Starts sweating profusely and avoiding eye contact*
K'rrik really isn't that good the deck is usually easy to beat you wait for him to drain his life then you board wipe then you swing a 5/5 with haste and there usually dead because they don't have life
Anje and Greven ended up being more competitive than K`rrik.
"When you are not growing, you are dying"
And what dies, grows the tarmogoyf.
Well played sir
Has goyf ever been playable in commander?
To solve power creep issues I try to only play jank decks against other jank and tuned decks only against other tuned decks. This can be hard to do but grouping your playgroups decks into two or three tiers of power level can be helpful.
My playgroup just started playing 1 dollar commander in addition to our normal decks. It really levels the playing field and makes things more fun
The in-depth personal POVs you all gave really made this a strong episode. The discussion at the end about communication was especially great. I see both Matt and Joey's points. It's easier to do what Matt suggests when you have a dedicated playgroup of friends. It's a lot harder when you just play with different people at a local LGS. Then it can get awkward like Joey mentioned.
Completely agree with the comment about the Selvala and Anje deck power levels. One of my favourite decks at the moment is a Narset *creature* based deck - it doesn't have extra turns or combat steps, but gets expensive enchantments out that generate creature token (e.g. Assemble the Legion + Divine Visitation). It's very fun and pretty powerful, but whenever I sit down to play it I have to start by saying _'don't worry, this isn't an infinite-Narset build!'_
If someone starts a conversation with "this isn't one of THOSE decks"...
It's always one of THOSE decks
@@mathimus55 Ha! ^_^ Not at all! It's a Narset creature token generating deck, nothing like the _'oh, it's the Narset turn - guess we wait 20 minutes to see _*_if_*_ they win with infinite combats'_ tier 2 versions that are played competitively. I wanted to push so much against that 'long turn' stereotype that I don't even have any form of fetchlands in the deck - I play fast turns.
Don't get me wrong - I think it's pretty powerful under those constraints - but it can't go infinite, and it's practically impossible for the deck to win from commander damage. If you can't tell from all that that it's 'not one of those decks', then I don't know what will make that clear ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I always say judge the deck, not the commander.
I know there is friction with the idea of not being able to use some of the old cards that a lot of EDH players treasure being able to use, but I highly recommend adopting some build restrictions in all playgroups! My office plays w/ a budget restriction we have verified on MTGGoldfish, and it keeps things at a level where all colors see meaningful play, Chulane and Korvold can get hated out before they are too powerful, and people have to dig deep into some real old and esoteric cards to make their build work!
Truly, Quest for the Janklord is a model we can all meaningfully apply to our commander lives
Budget Restrictions don't mean a lot either if you're trying. Have you ever stared down a $50 Gitrog Monster deck going infinite with little interaction? All budget restrictions do is make games slower (land bases are the MOST expensive thing in optimized casual decks. And many cedh decks have over half their value in the mana base too) and remove a lot of "problem" cards.
Spikes will be spikes. If your playgroup doesn't have someone who constantly plays well and abuses the restrictions you've made, you probably didn't need the restriction in the first place.
@@ebbandfloatzel I don't know that I fully agree w/ the assessment and I *am* the gitrog (and Krrik, and Niv-Parrun, and Emry) player in the local metas. I understand that it's a super effective deck at low budget!
That said, I don't win a disproportionate amount of the time (I get hated out a lot) and the slower pace has opened up a lot of viability with strategies that naturally operate slower.
it may not work for you! But budget is not the only building restriction and I would encourage anyone not satisfied with where their meta is going to experiment
@@benoitbusque3601 it's moreso that I advocate people to make change through adaptation and improvement rather than restriction. And not in a "spend money peasant" kind of way but a "throw in more interaction."
Something as simple as running multiple permanent exile effects w/ white, running bounce w/ Blue, and hexproof or things like Veil of Summer w/ green can make a Bant deck MUCH more interactive with your opponents. And in turn, make it do much better against "problem" commanders. And if that still isn't enough, hate bears cover problem commanders as well.
And maybe I'm just not used to REALLY low power level tables, but my group isn't close to CEDH at all either. I notice why I lost, and why I win. And make changes to my decks sometimes based on either reason. "my Derevi Midrange is too dominant. Is it because my board is too sticky? Should I remove cards like Eight and a Half Tails and Rune Tails to open up options for my opponents so it isn't so one sided?" "ugh! Just lost to astax deck using Teferi protection combo. Maybe I should use thassa oracle as a backup wincon in those games"
@@ebbandfloatzel "Adaption and improvement" just ends up with everyone running competitive decks, or just being straight coerced of playing the game entirely because you refuse to tone down your power level.
Commander was made for people tired of being coerced out of playing what they wanted, and i think it's a damn shame that the format made to do this is ending up more and more competitive and forcing out the options it was designed to enable.
@@woomod2445 you kinda missed the point then. You don't have to run CEDH decks in order to play interactive, and playing interactive makes you do better against more powerful decks.
You're limiting yourself if you think you can't just run a few pieces of flexible interaction so you can deal with problem cards/commanders. Cards to keep your game plan alive, and not even in a "protect the combo" but cards like Mirri, Weatherlight Duelist to give your "ground" evasion, Rune Tail / Eight and a Half Tails for protection, Cat Snecko to deal with counter spells, recursion spells in black and white (yes. White has two 4 mana recursion spells for creatures. It's okay to run them in casual, and they're cheap af.)
You can RUN interaction, play interactive, play "competitively," without your power level being of CEDH level or even building decks meant to be competitive. Sitting there and complaining that "X commander is such a pain to go up against. Feels like it always gets their game plan going before me" only hurts your chances at having fun.
Don't worry about sounding grumpy. Someone has to talk about this stuff and not just kiss the hand that feeds. I'm so glad to hear a well articulated series of valuable opinions about this subject - it's dangerous stuff WotC are playing with here. Without tempering forces, they'll just run amock. I mean, they're doing that regardless, but someone has to say something, and you guys have a good platform and voice.
Having a regular play group definitely makes it easier to have a fun time. Because you can discuss what power level people want/can reach (if accessibility is a thing). I have a group of friends we play (well, played, we can't since the confinment), but we made choice to cut some cards from our deck to lower the power level to match the others. Play tap land to slow downdecks. It is also fun to do some meta read and slow in cards that would not have been as good on a random group, but know that would be impactful in your group.
With my playgroup we have kept playing via OCTGN. We even tested C20 in advance. It's not the same as playing around a real table and you need computers and a relatively good internet connection, but it beats not being able to play at all.
I could never bring myself to play tap lands anymore. Why push your turns back to "slow yourselves" down. It won't change how a game goes, it just pushes back what people can do and pushes mana rocks EVEN MORE than they are already pushed.
But self-meta shaping is something I believe fixes almost EVERY edh group. Even a semi-competitive player in a group of casuals can get dumpstered if you self-meta shape imo. And as long as you have a slightly high casual power level, even some cedh decks can get toppled by casual decks... With self-meta shaping.
Slowing yourselves mean people have time to react. There is a difference between jinn gitaxa t2 vs t8.
@@Keos027 but there isn't a difference between Jim t3 and Jin T2, which is what you're advocating by saying play tap lands. Especially when everyone else is playing tap lands, and therefore only ALSO has 1-2 mana open in both scenarios (no tap lands, Jin T2. Tap lands, Jin t3.)
@@ebbandfloatzel well, obviously I'm not playing fast Mana either. But sometimes a turn makes up all the difference. Anyway, I don't say it is the best solution either, but that's how we went for my playgroup.
I have just re-listened this episode after one year of the first time, and I'd just like to appologize for how mean I was in the comments and that I appreciate you guys content so much! Thank you!
First of all: I often think of kissing Matt in a wooden glen while I'm in the shower.
Second: I wish they would stop printing 5 drop game changing commanders and start printing low drops that just help you with a game plan. For example, Judith the Scourge Diva. She just helps to bolster a plan and she is low on the curve. I play Sygg River Cutthroat as a low curve of my dimir aristocrats deck. Compare that to Golos that ramps into his own ability to basically take over the game or Krovold that does something similar.
Stuff like Judith is way more interesting to me than something like Teysa Karlov for sure.
The first point is the best point
The original Glissa (Sunseeker) is simpy one of my favorite Legendary Cards. Flavor, design, simplicity.
I wish WotC stopped designing for Commander and went back to a more balanced and simple-but-fun design.
They printed Siona, Captain of the Pyleas last set. Only a 3 drop that gets you an aura once and generates tokens when you play more auras. I think these commanders often get ignored for the 'card advantage/ramp on a single card' type commanders.
@@super1upmushroom When they print them along side the others, it's hard to justify playing them. I mean, I play Xira Arien. I know I'm going to lose some games I would win with a better commander but, I prefer her to auto win stuff. If you look at the Facebook groups and post on Reddit, people are buying the monolith for their Kennan deck and people will tutor for Dockside and temur Sabertooth in "casual" games with their Shared Summons because these are the tools that Wizards is making available.
It's only 4 months and this episode has already gotten better. Hearing them talk about companion and how no bans have happened yet in Standard. Now, I've just seen some of the Commander Legends leaks... Oh boy.
Some of my best ideas happen in the shower.
I actually set up my laptop in the shower
That com-ban-ion joke was so bad that it literally crashed my TH-cam app
The command zone power creep is 100% real.
I have been saying for a while that the commander precon decks have been a double edged sword making lots of hype for the format and giving us new toys to play with... but then it also feels like it's exploded the power of the format. And I have been looking into spending the next year or so building new decks with zero cards that were made for commander (or for brawl) and see how that goes. I think if you're in a group that agrees nothing from the precon decks are allowed, you'd see a lot more of the interesting and fun/janky decks that we used to see a lot of.
Also I found it interesting that Joey kept pointing to Ghave and Prossh as "these have existed forever" as ironic since that also supports my point considering both of those cards were made for commander legendary creatures.
@Ryu the Human The others? Yes. Chulane and Korvold were specifically designed for brawl. While they were available in Eldraine collector packs, that was really just a way to increase the perceived value of $25 boosters. Commmander 20 cards were also put into the Ikoria collector packs, same reason.
@Ryu the Human yeah, as was stated, Chulane and Korvold would be excluded, they were designed for the brawl decks. Muldrotha, Yarok, and Golos would be there, but there would also be cards in those decks that you couldn't use anymore, some more impactful than others, sure, but still cards you couldn't run which would power down their respective decks.
@@reidevjord the commander 2020 cards are in the Ikoria boosters?? Did this include non-foil legendary creatures, because if so, now I have no reason to buy the preconstructed decks!
@@anthonydelfino6171 in the $25 collector boosters only. And randomly. You're much better off getting the precons.
@@reidevjord oh I'll just buy the singles of the non-foil online. I'm willing to pay more to avoid the foil treatment... I HATE foil cards.
Totally feel this. Seems like I can't play my Jank Budget Volrath, the Shapestealer Infect Unblockable deck anymore
My issue with power creep is associated with what yall mentioned with Lord windgrace/Korvold for Jund, generically good cards make commander players be less creative with their decks. I like commander because you could see new interactions with cards that normally wouldnt been seen very often. For example, karplusan minotaur can demolish people in my okaun/zndrsplt deck, even though it was printed 12 years before those 2 cards were released and impulsive maneuvers, a very risky card in other decks, can allow me to control combat in mine. Seeing the same mana rocks, same removal, even same wincons in decks makes games feel like they have less heart than they would otherwise if we didnt feel pressured to use the clearly best available option if it is available. Excellent Work!
One thing I'm really happy about with my playgroup is that the store has a pretty comprehensive ban list to keep games fun and fair, Chulane and Korvold along with a few other commanders are banned and we don't play with cheap tutors or cards like mana crypt etc, I really enjoy it and you see lots of weird and wonderful decks everywhere. Although I'm sad that hydra tribal is going to be more popular now cause that was always my pet deck
another big source of power creep is the printing of cards that, for your strategy, duplicate what a lot of other cards already do, and the game trends toward more consistency.
I 100% agree with what was said around the 26:30 mark. Recently played against a new player who brought a Muldrotha deck to the table for the first time. Everyone's immediate reaction was negative, and he won despite being ganged up on the whole game. His immediate reaction was "Sorry, guys, I didn't know. I won't play that again." It just felt bad for everyone involved.
That’s really more a fault of the community than anything. I had the same issue with my Yuriko deck after it was newly built. Immediately ganged up on with lots of pissing and moaning to go with it. You know you’ve made friends when someone tries to imprison In the moon your commander the moment they hit the field.
It's so funny to hear complaints about good powerful cards, and actually agree with it! I love making powerful decks, but I love making janky decks even more. I want to see more decks with strange themes or that play around not-so-powerful mechanics. Not every deck has to be combo to win.
THE GREAT EDHREC ARMS RACE OF 2020. Being able to utilize sites like EDHREC and the myriad of TH-cam deck techs sure help consolidate and make it easy for people (like myself) to get ideas of powerful fun things to build around decks too.
Really good discussion that's very important to have in playgroups. The power creep is one of the biggest challenges to the choices we make when deckbuilding and playing EDH, because as you pointed out they shape our format playability and decklists. And it is a normal phenomenon in an age where speed of production takes precedence over quality of lifestyle.
It equates to me, to the Green Revolution in the 70s and the advent of non-sustainable monocultural practice in agriculture. It made everyone produce and consume the same stuff and it impoverished the ecosystem to the brink of collapse.
Playing the power game will impoverish the experiene so much in the end, that people will eventually get sick of the meta and will seek the more rich experience of organic, more ancient, locally grown food, because it's more sustainable in the long run. Hehee... that's one analogy just there. Rescue the old commanders, don't forget the old, wiser ways.
A word to the wise though, don't be afraid to defend a sustainable meta, more variance is more fun in a world that suffers from an increasing power creep. It makes people better beings. The new stuff is powerful but tends to be boring and sickening. Teach the young players the power of playing less powerful cards.
Elephant in the room is corporate greed, at least as far as the Brawl precons is concerned....
I've also been reading old design articles (around 2004, Kamigawa block).
A columnist that was requested to play-test the set in secret (Anthony Alongi, I think) said " *Skullclamp's power was apparently an oversight* "
Then there were design choices for cards that helped with the issue, most notable [Samurai of the Pale Curtain]! A card that not only prevented the card draw and other previous effects from Mirrodin, but the triggers from the Cycle of Kamigawa Dragons. And Kamigawa was a set known for NOT answering Mirrodin's problems!
PS. As a Kamigawa lover, I think *Yuriko* is a "bad" design, simply because every commander should be affected by Commander Tax. Everything else about her is great.
Red Moon Arcade the story I heard was that skull clamp was +1/+1 and some idiot thought that was to powerful and thought a last minute change to +1/-1 would be a downside to balance it out.
@@jakeapplegate6642 Imagine that.
I built my first EDH deck in 2006 and I won my pod more often than not back then. Occasionally I pulled that deck out in 2019 and the games would end before I got to do anything. I eventually dismantled it because there were a lot of pricey old cards in there that I could scavenge for my other decks. But what I loved about EDH was that once a deck is built, you can play it forever. But when they print a half dozen S and A tier commanders every set, it's hard to not stumble upon something obnoxious, and its hard to play the old stuff because you know you are going to take stompings from the new brews
Kinnan is balanced...
Now hear me out:
He is very very very strong BUT the art is so ridiculously more ugly than his strength is high, that only blind people will be able to play him as commander.
i like the art :(
@@weedAndTransRights My condolences.
Great discussion fellas. Extremely relevant subject when taking into consideration the recent EDH deckbuilding trends. What I usually see is that the cards that are printed for standard sets usually don't hurt EDH as much as the ones that are printed in Commander sets (there are exceptions, of course).
I just never have a fun time sitting across from a Korvold deck.
Yes, “draw a card whenever” U do a very routine ‘free’ game action, is so egregious.
I remember the days when I had to include legal “pain-lands” of every sort, just to squeeze 1/1 Soldiers from King Darien “whenever I’m dealt that many damage”.
Goodness. Fitting training wheels on bikes, THEN putting bazookas onto those assisted bikes. Not meaningful nor satisfying, WotC, N-O-T A-T A-L-L!
Whenever you do x you y is becoming fairly common on the recent years, drawing cards perhaps is the most visible interaction of the problem, but recently we had kykar and Alela for creating tokens. Atla palani "polymorphs" her eggs. Ayara drains life and Sir konrad as well. Both Brallin and Shabraz gains counters. In my opinion doing this is a total lazy and lame card design
I'm so glad this was the first episode I've seen from this channel, immediately subscribed
But... There is a new Swords to Plowshares 2?
It's called "Deadly Rollick"
It just happens to be in black
This podcast has become my new favourite podcast.
Really good topic. I'm usually the source of power creep in my meta as I just build and tear apart decks pretty often. I've gotten around to asking some friends on whether or not I should run certain cards specifically to keep myself from snowballing into better and better decks. Doesn't always work out but i keep notes.
Dana's long-winded analogies are the best!
The upgraded Swords to Plowshares you're talking about is called "Spears to Pruning Hooks", costs 1W as an instant and says "Exile target creature or planeswalker. Its controller gains life equal to its toughness or its loyalty." and we finally need it!!!
One thing we did in our playgroup in order to address powercreep was to sort random commanders that we would them have to build prior to our play session with a 50 UsD budget limit. That way we would challenge our deckbuilding skill against one another
Sorry for the wall of text, TL:DR- dude played Selvala without know he had multiple infinite mana combos, and basically pissed the table off.
I really agree with you guys especially about the Selvala point, b/c i feel for your friend, as she's a fun commander with a potent but easily exploited ability. Honestly I love selvala deck when they are against same power levels, b/c that's when the skill of the pilot can really shine through (same with yisan to some extent). That being said: I once played a game of commander with a guy who had a Selvala deck. Me and the other players warned him that we're playing low power, and if that was a cEDH Selvala, or high power this game wouldn't be much fun. The person, and I believe him, claimed that he didn't make this deck with any infinite combos, and wasn't running any of the degeneracy found in cEDH Selvala. The game proceeded, and he played a lot of powerful cards, but nothing outside of big scary eldrazi/creatures. Just very expensive power cards like Karn, etc. The table was sort of able to handle it, and the game went normally until he dropped a priest of Titania, and a Temur Sabertooth onto the battlefield. At this point I pointed out that he had some infinite mana combos on the field as he had like 6 elves and Selvala. The dude literally seemed shocked and we had to show him the combo. He literally did not know he had an infinite mana combo in his deck (he actually had like 2 or 3, but they were jankier and less obvious). I think this kinda shows the dangers of power creep, that someone who just cobbled together powerful cards accidentally made a high power deck with multiple infinite mana combos. (The table btw was kinda pissed off at this guy, b/c he clearly did not know his deck, and the only reason we held up to that point was his very poor piloting of his deck)
Regarding what you said around 40:00 about pushing back against the powers that be. I work in software QA and one of the first things we learned was that someone (ideally the people testing) has to have the authority to put their foot down and say "We are not shipping with this as is. It needs more time in the oven."
Either there isn't someone at WOTC who does that, or they're too locked into their release schedule to make the necessary changes.
I like that you bring up stats and percentages
My first commander game was with a janky 5 color budget deck. There was a gilt leaf stax deck that played contamination insanely early. I did nothing for an hour, it didn't turn me off the format.
So true. Maybe this blatant power creep is their way of forcing us into Brawl.
That's actually pretty scary to think about all things considered.
I started noticing the power creep a couple years ago with some of the edh precons. I had the similar thought - "they're trying to ruin commander to being everyone back to standard"
This is an important discussion (to the extent any discussion about a hobby is truly important). I have a Karametra-deck that I used to play a lot and liked. But then Chulane was printed and I can't help but feel that Chulane is just more or less strictly better and that my Karametra deck should shift into a Chulane deck.
If you want to build the strongest version of that commander mechanic, sure. If you're playing to optimize your chances of winning, rebuild around Chulane. If you're playing because you enjoy the social experience, or because you enjoy brewing creative decks that speak to you personally, then keep doing what you're doing. Nobody's forcing you to build an optimized version of your deck, or use the strongest commander in your deck's archetype. If you're feeling pressure to play stronger cards, it's either a matter of your personal motivation for playing, or the playgroup you're playing with.
I have the exact same feeling with my roon deck. I could just switch the commander and the deck would become twice as powerful... but i like my janky rhino man :(
@@lutzrambo8191 Roon isn't particularly janky as a commander though... If you're building with synergy and reasonably strong cards, he's a great flicker commander.
Just a thought. Have you guys tried Horde Magic before? I've found that since it's co-op, there's no pressure for everyone to be balanced and people can just play the decks they enjoy (it's become one of our groups favorite formats and we've even hooked a few new players into magic because of it).
Setup;
The Horde is a deck that runs itself which the players including you team up to defeat. You'll need 85-ish creatures (mostly garbage commons but you'll want 'boss' creatures and some variety in there too. Tribal works best) and 15-ish spells/enchantments (e.g. Minor mass pump spells, Wraths, Stax, Mass Discard, Token multipliers. Any color is fine.). The key here is to avoid cards that have activated abilities or that target.
You'll need 1-5 other players. They can use any deck they want; commander, standard, legacy e.t.c. (I've even let someone switch out their deck mid-game after they ran out of resources) and the person piloting the horde can also act as a player.
Rules (flexible according to taste/difficulty);
1) X players have 30ish combined life and play like in a twin-headed giant.
2) They have 3 free turns to set up.
3) The horde deck then casts the top X cards of it's library as if it had infinite mana.
4) X increases during every second turn. (I freeze the counter when it seems like the horde deck is scaling too far out of control or speed it up when it's too easy/have 3+ players).
5) The Horde doesn't have a life total. Any damage caused mills it for half that damage rounded down instead.
6) The Horde attacks every turn if able and doesn't block.
7) If the Horde has to make a decision for some reason, do so randomly (or whatever makes the most sense).
8) If the Horde has no cards remaining on the field and in their deck, everyone wins.
It sounds complex but it's easier in practice (+it's a great place to run all those cards you can't run outside of drafts)
Gawd I feel soo much for that Selvala comment at 26:25. When Muldrotha first came out I wanted to convert my Meren generic good stuff deck but was just getting blasted online because someone built a staxx version. I literally dismantled the deck because I was getting hated out (contstant 3v1) for just trying something new.
Seems weird to use Standard and cEDH as examples. Cards that get banned in Standard rarely see play in EDH. You talked about the years of no bans, but then someone brought up Cyclonic Rift as an example of power creep, a card that was printed right in the middle of that period and is so strong BECAUSE it was designed without multiplayer in mind. I get that you guys want to be able to back up your arguments with data, but trying to use data that is irrelevant to the format you're talking about seems not great.
This is a podcast about a website that tracks actual EDH data isn't it? Why not use that data instead of talking about cards being banned in Standard?
Possible impopular opinion (?): I am not a hardcore player, and i play mostly arena (because of playgroup power level in my local game store and the current pandemic).
I am actually glad to see recent cards in formats like modern, because it mean that accessible cards can be useful. Many people are asking for zendikar fetchlands to be reprinted because we want the formats to be accessible, and not composed of only 4 decks that have been there for 10 years (i remember when i started to look at pro decks a while ago, i saw like 5 dredge decks because it was very stong and saw no cards that i recognised because the new cards had no competitive value.
However, more powerful cards will result in bans, and people building decks that become close to worthless after one, as well as commander becoming too competitive to be fun, and that is just as sad as the format being stuck with no diversity.
Again, i am not qualified to judge, thats just how i see the thing.
How do people even listen to the Command zone podcast when this is so much better than that one.
jesse spence the command zone has become so far detached from the average commander player at this point I have pretty much stopped listening to them and I haven’t really liked the last couple game knights either.
@@jakeapplegate6642 I replied Once on reddit to have Jimmy and his fans go All SJW on me. It's a shame really because I don't like to hate on people, but when they act like that and pretend their better than you its just silly. Also I think its for the beginning players not for people who have been already playing edh for over a decade.
@@wesomek As a very new Commander player (my first deck was the 2020 Kalamax Precon), the Command Zone proved nice to basically learn the ropes. Also, I liked their gameplay videos for the simple fact that they have their high production values, which makes them simply more pleasant to watch than the usual Commander gameplay vids here on TH-cam. The more I'm learning about Commander, the less useful/exciting the Command Zone is, but they were nice for a start.
It's worth pointing out here that much of Magic's history has been intentional and necessary power creep on creatures alongside equally necessary power shrink on non-creature spells. In the beginning and then for probably the first ten or so years of Magic's history, creatures were way way out-gunned by non-creatures. WotC decided, and I think most people agree, that this was largely bad for the game, especially with new players. So when we talk about power creep on creatures, it's important to remember that to some extent it's part of an intentional and necessary project.
James Garren like the Magus
Spells should be more powerful than creatures because they are one-time use effects whereas creatures stay on the board and can be used multiple turns. They made creatures more powerful because kids liked swinging with them and kids buy lots of packs.
@@HarryBuddhaPalm I think it's fair to say that it's complicated. I think that where we've settled is that spells should be more efficient and permanents should be more powerful. This balance of tempo and power is constantly being pushed and pulled, and that's as it should be.
while I agree with the observation on power creep being limited to creatures and its being intentional, I actually feel that the power-creep on creatures (especially at rare/mythic level) at the expense of spells has contributed, for a lack of better terms, to dumb-down the game*, providing new players to easier to achieve "feel good" games, in which basically they only need their creature(s) not to be countered/die to removal and the wall of text will basically win the game on autopilot. The only necessity I see in favour of such change is that of WotC to bring new players onboard.
*of course I am not implying it is not possible to put together complex and clever combos.
@@ROMANTIKILLER2 I get the appeal of this argument, but I don't really think that it's born out by the evidence. When we look at the competitive circles of the post-Modern formats, I don't see a lot of top-tier decks driven by super OP creatures just running downhill. In particular not OP mythic creatures. There are some decks like that, but decks that rely on synergy, control decks and combo decks continue to be very well represented in all formats.
Now, where I would agree is that at a more casual level, these super powerful mythic creatures do tend to dominate, and lead to less interesting games. However, that tends to be because people don't play as many answers as they should in casual magic, not because those answers aren't as good, or don't exist.
Love the new layout, great stuff guys 👌
Regarding the issue of power creep of decks in your playgroup, I like to view my deck(s) as nuclear deterrents. I've got my Jhoira of the Ghitu deck. Holds a special place in my heart. It's the deck that I built with my own initiative. No one hinted me towards it, and I don't think I'll ever take her apart. However, I know people don't like to play against it, and honestly, I don't like making people feel salty(af)
However, that doesn't mean she doesn't have a purpose. Our playgroup has been having talks about dropping power level, building some cheaper decks, doing 2-headed-draft etc. in the name of fun, and then someone comes out with their highly competitive Tatyova deck taking all the time in the world, preventing everyone from playing, and then bringing out titan Najeela; no, we agreed we weren't doing this anymore. So, I bring out Jhoira, threaten land destruction on turn 2, Obliterate turn 4, get my free big creature, win the game, make someone rage quit, but then use that opportunity to make the point of power level.
So, if someone asks you to stop playing a powerful deck, or you choose to do so for the sake of the playgroup, change your mindset. You're not archiving the deck forever, or tearing it apart, no, you have a WMD waiting to be let loose on the next obnoxious player you meet. We play to have fun. Sometimes you just need to be a judge Dredd or something
I am a necromancer through and through. I have a Meren deck that I have slowly upgraded over the years and I've built three graveyard decks out of the stuff i took out of Meren. Jarad gets whatever falls out of Meren and Muldrotha gets whatever falls out of Jarad. This way of building decks makes each deck slightly worse than the last. That is, it did until I built Korvold. I built Korvold out of the jankest of the jank cards and it is still my most powerful graveyard deck. It's not even close.
I did the same. It really brings out creativity in deckbuilding.
I'd suggest as a way to handle wanting to play some janky decks in your play group would be to have theme nights or have specific 'jank' days. I once hosted a 'blind commander' day for my group where everyone brought a new deck and we randomly assigned who played what deck, so you wouldn't be the one to play your own deck.
That's interesting, unfortunately my playgroup enjoy to play competitive 😩😩
>game starts out having printed really powerful cards that got banned because the devs toned the new sets down
this is fine
>game starts going back to that power level
>YOU CANT JUST PRINT POWERFUL CARDS THAT SHAKE UP THE METAS OF ANCIENT FORMATS STOOOOOOOOOP
haha card printer go brrrt :^)
I bought two Brawl decks - Alela because she looked fun and Korvold because it's a dragon. Alela was alright, but I was surprised by how fun Korvold was to play. I didn't cram in expensive fetches, and I looked for niche cards that I don't normally run in a deck because they work well with Korvold, and he's just been a blast to play. Now, I have had some opponents comment on how strong he is, but given that I rotate through dozens of decks and don't play them over and over in a night, it hasn't been an issue. I'm likely to play Korvold and then switch to a totally jank deck like Gorm/Virtus tribal half life or Selenia Suicide, so it never gets old.
I really like Korvold - thematically he’s a card I really like. But he’s ridiculously strong, so I’ve had to purposely build him in a lankier fashion. I take the power of his ability as my free rein to do stupid, fun things I couldn’t do with most other Jund commanders. I think that the peer creep is inevitable for this upcoming year, and I think this format will live and die by people self-policing power level and looking out for their own and enjoyment and that of the people around them.
There have been 2 standard bans since this episode. Agent of Treachery and Fires of Invention. Agent is really paying for the sins of Winota and Lukka.
Wow, I'm late for the party... I started playing way later than many people here. My first commander deck was the Breya precon. What I noticed in this time is that not only Power Creep is a problem, but also the increasing number of "auto includes" in any deck. After I put lands, I might have maybe 30 cards that actually do what my deck want to do (or that make my deck unique). In order to try to solve that, I took the concious decision to build only 5's and 6's. Less pressure on optimization, less pressure on my walet, and I can play those old, jany, splashy cards. My playgroup agreed to the same, thankfully. But I know that if I tried to play in a LGS or Magicfest I would be destroyed in any "casual table".
Something me and my friends have been encouraging each other to do is to win through combat damage even when playing Blue, Green, and Black.
I think combat is highly viable unless you're playing monoblue, monoblue sadly needs to hang on alternative win conditions and combos. Unless you're playing with Urza or Talrand counterspell triball
I’ve had to add non-combat wincons to my decks that previously didn’t have them because of the meta at my LGS. One guy really likes playing fog effects and mob rule.
So Mercadia's Downfall is EDHREC's Wayfarer's Bauble?
The point about your friend who didn’t realize his Selvala deck had a combo really resonated with me. I pulled a foil Golos from one of the first packs I ever opened and was super excited to build it, but now that I’ve played with it a bit I’m really sick of the deck. I just wanted to ramp out lands and copy big spells, but it turns out that it just destroys my playgroup and is way too repetitive. I’ve found myself intentionally looking for janky fun themes because commanders like Golos are just so consistent and strong.
My favorite Commander is Narset. And i have an optimized (not perfected but pretty strong) list. But i also brew a Voltron-Aura variant which has only two Extra-Combats (for the fun - not for the combo) in it.
The worse part about power creep, is that the newer card is always a lot more expensive, so budget=disadvantage
I think of a lot of these new commanders as easy mode for deck building. This is really great for new players who don't have a large knowledge base to make well synergized decks but more experienced players really shouldn't be playing these unless they're their group is really focused on optimized game play.
Oh I thought this was a card game for fun.
My playgroup at my LGS was pretty casual until another LGS in town shut down and we had an influx of competitive decks (3 narset extra turn decks in one pod is not very fun) I built chulane and korvold because of the arms race that inevitably followed and a lot of the more casual decks just don’t get to play much anymore.
@@jakeapplegate6642 You guys don't play for fun, you play competitive ish. Which is fine, but call it what it is.
Luis Polanco my point was we want to have fun but if people show up with cedh decks then having a casual deck is like bringing a knife to a gunfight. Which is not very fun. Getting to play your cards is more fun than not.
@@jakeapplegate6642 I'm sorry your playgroup is like that.
Commanders as in legendary creatures have become way more tuned and designed to do a certain thing really well. Examples would be yarok, chulane, meren, muldrotha, and teysa to name a few. They are made with the idea that provides deck building guidelines that can be easily followed. Older commanders were just semi random value cards that might provide a theme but they were very freeform in how you could build the deck. As far as power creep in the 99 older cards are just better or more powerful besides a few staple cards or niche theme designed cards. Examples of older cards being better without looking at $20 plus staples would be the signet cycle for guilds, skyshroud claim vs explosive vegetation, birds of paradise vs most other 1 mana dorks, animate dead vs the 5 mana reanimates we get today, 4 mana board wipes, praetors vs any cycle of monsters we get now.
My opionion is that the power-creep in legendary creatures especially is to force EDH to become in a way the sort of popular multiplayer rotating format that Brawl failed to be. While older powerful cards will remain availabe (for those who can afford them, as they are not getting reprints), forcing players to keep buying into all the new products to still stand a chance to play (I'm not even saying to win) seems to be the strategy that WotC has adopted after realizing that Commander may have been their golden egg goose.
From my side, the only answer I could find to still be able to play some older and not-broken autopiloted value-engine commanders and actaully standing some chances to win was to stuf f the rest of the 99 with the most despised stax pieces. Yay ... fun at the table!
As it creeps closer, you hear it. You look right then left it is not their but it comes closer. You check up you check down it no where to be seen. It creeps stills as it music grows and now creep as it power grows.
5:23 Yes, but also to remedy the meta of power creep through more additional power creep. Remember, WOTC's old philosophy was that banning and/or restricting was a last resort. When that's the case, you must either forget the past or defeat it. They chose to defeat it, which is a feedback loop.
mfw I made my first EDH deck with Korvold as I got it from a booster and thought: "Hmm.. I've been thinking of trying that Single High Dragonling. This seems cool and it's even a dragon."
I'm actually looking forward to a bit of power creep so that I can enjoy my Korvold, Alela, Selvala (explorer), Kykar, etc. once the format pushes other commanders beyond them. My playgroup can hang, but when I play online I always make sure I get permission from the others and make it clear these are pretty strong 7.5-8 power decks. I only got back into Magic last year, so I was oblivious to everything out here, and just picked up and upgraded precons and brawl decks.
I would say that the issue with power creep is that it leads to increasingly homogenized play experiences for all involved. As you guys noted with Lurrus, one of the big reasons given for its ban in Vintage was that basically every deck in the format took advantage of the card, meaning it was the same game over and over and over. I do think Dana had a point about Wizards missing the mark on what Commander players desire/look for, in that they understand players want to do cool, big stuff that you can't do anywhere else in MTG, but they want to do those things by discovering them on their own. As a newer player to the format who plays only on MTGO to this point, I've had that thrill of discovery a couple of times already, and can fully understand what draws people to the format. But, with some of the recent designs, WotC just shortcuts that process for players and helps push out the fun, janky casual stuff that Joey was lamenting the loss of in this episode. Anyways, have a good one!
Good vid tho! Interesting conversation and I agree with most of the comments, I like more narrow funky builds
I'm not sure it's necessarily 'power creep' just because creatures have gotten better, but keep in mind that Alpha still has about the craziest, most powerful cards ever printed, and still features many 'gold standard' creatures despite most of the creatures having aged as well as bread.
I think of power creep specifically when it is just strictly better, which isn't as common as most people think. Lots of cards are almost always better, but aren't quite always better, and that is why things like Darksteel Ingot can have niche uses for certain decks (IE those expecting to need the mana flexibility that's hard to get otherwise), I think of U in particular, but R can need off color mana as well, since both are reasonably good at getting opponent's cards. My point isn't that Ingot is great, its that it and other sub-optimal cards can actually have moments to shine, and as long as they can have them, it's not really power creep, even if the card is usually a bit better. If the card is a *lot* better, and in most situations, that is creep.
I think WotC should continue to strive to print flavor-win commanders and cards, which don't need to be as pushed as long as they are creative, while still printing some stronger stuff. People can agree to play at a certain power level, and as long as WotC continues to print cards relevant to different power levels, then people can build decks that aren't optimized, or are optimized for flavor.
I think power creep is ultimately way less of an issue in Commander, since it has so many old insanely broken cards that are legal, yeah creatures are better than they ever were before I'd say, but they used to be pretty awful. Throw in the fact that players as noted can build to desired power levels, and who cares if power creep is occurring on average? I don't miss the large number of rubbish cards that were printed in every set, not even at common always. Also, I like to have access to 2 or even more of certain effects in edh, who says you need to toss Felwar for the Signet, plenty of decks like to have both around.
I think that people should consider playing commander with a budget in mind sometimes, as a harshly low budget forces you to use the nifty cards you always wanted to have work, rather than just having Cyclonic Rift in every deck with U.
6:42 Power Creep by reprint? I'm fine with ungodly powerful reprints going cheap...
Thats not power creep that is people getting the cards they need at a affordable price.
the quote at around 15mins is Sam Black talking about Pioneer
The power creep is getting a little ridiculous and here comes commander legends with probably like ten brokenly powerful commanders out of the seventy that are supposed to be in it what do you think about that ?
For generically powerful cards like muldrotha, there are far more than 100 fantastic cards that you want to include. Those types of decks tend to usually be similar but never be the same.
Very narrow commanders are more unique compared to other decks, but tend to have very high similarity between decks of the same commander
The only real working solution is to have at minimum 3 commander decks, a typical assortment of decks would consist of :
1 fun and janky deck pow lvl 4
1 fairly competitive deck pow lvl 6-8
1 super tuned and optimized deck pow lvl 9-10
Then play the appropriate deck for that play group.
Tweak each deck as new cards are printed staying true to the pow lvl that deck was created to play in.
I personally run a minimum of 9 commander decks.
1 janky fun deck
5 fairly competitive decks in the pow lvl 6-8 range
2 Cedh decks pow lvl 9-10
By doing things this way I can always find a group to play in and match up my decks to have fun games, and occasionally I even disassemble a deck to make a different deck to keep things fresh.
I recommend 3 decks minimum, this also helps those that are budget conscious since the lower pow lvl deck(s) typically won't be using the cash expensive cards that I reserve for my more powerful decks, which allows me to only need 1 of each of the more cash expensive cards, thus reducing the overall cost of my total number of decks.
I have also found, acquiring key lands, mana rocks, and quality counter magic/removal cards is not stressed enough for beginning commander players.
Finding cheap alternative ways to ramp mana, using spells that put lands directly into play, typically a green color pie thing, is a good start to making bigger splashier things happen mid game, instead of waiting until end game scenarios.
I guess i'm building a Korvold deck.
Do it
Come and see the true power of the dockside(extortionist)!
The brawl deck also allows to play budget deck that pack a punch to compete with players/friends that invested a lot in their decks and to whom you cannot say "hey those card you spend so much on? don't play them plz".
My korvold is janky, it is still korvold, but its power level allows me to put some cards that i couldn't play in another similar deck that are fun.
The most important part of this chat was definitely the time where Dana smooched Matt.
I've been running a very slow survey with my playgroup where we go through one commander a day and rate them on multiple axes. We're at just about 200 of them so far (with 6 raters), so it's not exactly an EDHrec level of data, but from the trends I see so far, the difference in commander power from 2017 to 2019 is about the same as the difference from Kamigawa to OG Ravnica...which is to say, absolutely huge.
Okos middle ability should have been a minus 2 to elk target.
When he first got spoiled this was literally what my eyes where reading. Also i was 100% sure he was 5 mana. My brain balanced this card before my eyes. Was weird when i realized what was really going on.
Another thing I do when it comes to powerful decks is that I have a personal rule that once I have been able to do the thing that my deck is meant to do, I will not play that deck again for the rest of the day and usually pick a less powerful deck for the next game, usually my group hug deck.
The first time each turn that you do x, draw a card would be how I'd fix those cards
I am really scared too. I've had a very similar discussion with my group that basically ended in "we gotta get better as players" and "run more removal" and "make better deck building choices including your commander". I have built very strong decks and even play cedh quite often, but I'm scared casual commander is something that I may lose interest in within the next couple years of this trend continues.
"Power Creep" is good for the format, it keeps things progressing and interesting. Alot of old commanders are still very strong and very competitive even when up against the new commanders. But even if they weren't I would say it is stlll a good thing. Having something to look forward to and to make some new brews is a large part of the fun. Sitting down with that newly brewed deck is a great time. Although yes if you are playing with a group where someone just simply can't compete with the rest it is not very fun for that person and usually the other players will simply leave that person alone so they can have a chance.
Nah, I see their argument for the more "narrow" requirements on Commanders effects. Especially when it comes to Card draw. So yay for exciting new cards (I'm actually looking forward to Legends and Zendikar Rising a lot!), but they don't have to be that much better than older cards to enable building a fun new deck about them.
I am going to disagree on the vannifar opinion, i had the deck, i used it plenty and eventually disassembled it.
All my games weren't "tap vannifar, look for the line, win" depending on what you have on hand and what opponents have in play the lines can vary wildly and only the end point remained the same most of the time.
The reason why i think it went down is because she's both very cEDH-y in that it can win super fast super consistently, AND that you spend most of the time in the game searching a 80+ card deck for singles rather than playing.
Strong commanders allow budget play groups to eat a one time cost of the commander and get a deck that functions in very fun ways. Chulane on a budget is a fun deck that does powerful things. It's only when a group starts optimizing that the design flaws become super obvious.
A lot of the problem is that the more colors something has the more they can put into it because its harder to cast. That works for constructed typically, but EDH suffers when that approach is applied to Legendary Creatures. The more something does the fewer colors it'd have if cards were designed for commander. These broken 3 color + commanders are both busted in effect and in deck building.
44:25 - 'Yuriko is a stroke of genius.'
I love old videos 🤣
I agree with Joey! I would hate it to have that conversation about my decks being unfun.
I also feel like the person asking you to change your deck is already saying their fun is more important than yours.
WOW I'd LOVE TO PLAY COMMANDER NOW!
It creates this weird dynamic between play groups. In one hand, you want your deck to be awesome and do "magic" things, but it's not fun unless your group can counter it.
Power Creep in cards is for sure happening. Now, since I enjoy high power games (in this case commander), this has never been much of an issue for me. But I see constant threads about cards being broken or the new staples of the format that you have to run. I'm curious why the more casual players don't just ignore these cards and run what they prefer. And of course, I know many players do this already as no group is a monolith.
Because I don't really fit with that demographic, I genuinely wonder, what compels players (in a consistent playgroup) to not utilize rule 0 in this situation? And what power level do you prefer?
Sunburst Explosion Iplay at my local LGS and we were pretty casual until another LGS in town shut down and we got a lot of cedh players showing up and started ending games on turn 3-4. The meta had suddenly changed and adjustments had to be made to remain relevant. Casual players still want to play the game and if that means they have to build korvold or chulane then so be it.
@@jakeapplegate6642 that's an unfortunate situation. Good to hear y'all adapted, but hopefully you can still get in your ideal power level games in.
Is it just mean or is what's his name in this podcast the guy from Commander Void channel? his voice sounds familiar
I think this is your best episode yet. You said some things I've been thinking and you said them in ways I didn't know how. Thank you! One thing that bothered me is you speculated with many theories on why power creep and bans keep happening, but no one even mentioned that Wizards KNOWS they're printing strong cards intentionally so they can sell products. We'd all have to be naive to not think it's a possibility. Anyway, don't wanna get bogged down on the negatives. Excellent job on this and I agree with your concerns thoroughly.