the coolest thing about mulan is that she does have to act like a man HOWEVER in the climax her fellow soldiers have to dress up and pretend to be women in turn for the plan to work. the moment when they show the gang in their courtesan disguises, about to scale a wall using the method mulan came up with during the training montage, as "be a man" is playing in the background is one of my favorite moments in the movie (and also probably in cinema history) bc it's such a perfect payoff both narratively and thematically. just ties the gender related themes of the movie together so well. gosh i love mulan😭
I absolutely love the Earthsea miniseries. Kristin Kreuk's character Tenar is the sweetest "good-est" character ever. But when she is betrayed and thrown in the dungeon, she stands strong. She's not a fighter. But when they threaten to torture and kill her, she, very clearly scared, lifts her chin, looks the villains right in the eye, and essentially tells them, "Go right ahead. But the information you want will follow me to my grave.". THAT is a strong character. Eventually, the protagonist, Shawn Ashmore's Ged, comes to rescue her and she is extremely grateful and then helps him defeat the villains. Not by suddenly being a badass warrior. But by doing what she can do.
I don't remember the movie's name, it was a modern fantasy/comedy where monsters like zombies, werewolves, vampires, etc. lived hidden among humans. And I really liked the twist of the useless damsel in distress. Spoilers: The useless damsel in distress was only pretending to be useless, and was the main villian all along. She was a powerful monster hunter, and allowed herself to be captured so she could absorb the magical mcguffin and gain unparalleled powers.
I’m so sick of reading headstrong/stubborn FMCs…. It’s so overused and it’s frustrating to read because they refuse to take advice(usually from Male characters) and ultimately make poor decisions which lead to some avoidable catastrophic event. What’s worse, is that there usually isn’t much character development following their actions, and they will most likely not learn from their stubbornness!! I would personally like to see more FMCs be more reasonable and trusting, overall see more personal growth and relationship building.
I actually like stubborn/headstrong FMCs, but when they refuse to even consider being open to any outside influence from anyone ever no matter what and never learn....I feel like that's diverging beyond just stubborn and/or headstrong and right into full-on bullheaded or even outright pigheadedishness, and I really can't stand that either.
One of the best female characters I've read about it a very long time is Yona from the manga Yona of the Dawn. She starts out a spoiled princess, someone who doesn't care much about anything other than her hair and her crush, but she's forced very quickly to grow up and get stronger, and we see her learn so many things, like shoot a bow and arrow and lead an army. She turns into a super strong woman who also recognizes her emotions. She never loses her inner kindness, but instead learns how to turn it into a weapon. She reminds me a lot of Katara from Avatar. Highly recommend Yona of the Dawn!
I agree. At the start of the story Yona was annoying and then her story line growth so well that she became very likable. Specially cause her development feel real for a person and a girl in term of maturity, specific skills, self-confidence, mindset,... and not pure force.
Oooh, that's a classic! Personally one of my favorite characters of all times is Shion Sonozaki, from Higurashi (the VN/manga, she's a lot more well developed than in the anime).
If you like sweet/clean romance, try A Keen Mind and A Phantom Song. It's a slow burn, but I did try to capture a very healthy family dynamic in that one. Can also recommend Catherine Stein's Love at Second Sight and The Earl on the Train. Hmm, I liked Bet Me by Jennifer Cruisie. She plays with hints of fairytales throughout, but the main plot is Beauty and the Beast with a misunderstanding or two between them.
the point about the old wise mentor never being a woman is a really good point. If there is such a character, they usually end up being 1 The villain or 2 kidnapped/ unalived just for character and plot motivation. Like an old lady, damsel in distress lol
MORE female villains. I grew up absolutely loving Maleficent and the White Witch as some of the coolest characters of all time. That kind of character doesn't seem to exist much anymore. Instead, they are watered down just to be the real victims, and I should actually hate some guy instead? Weird modern villain requirement.
Honestly, I'd love more female villains who aren't r-pists. More villains just in general who aren't as well, but I seem to be stumbling into a lot of books where the female villain starts off promising and then just turns into weaponized sexuality because the author doesn't know what else to do with them. We need more good, well-written female villains
Probably the result that villains arent allowed to BE ugly anymore and mostly Look Like gorgous Models. Like Imagining a twisted grandma villains WHO Takes Care of her children by Experimenting ON them Like Frankenstein to improve them
@@laisphinto6372 maleficent and the white witch were both beautiful, I don't think you understood their comment. It's not about physical beauty, it's about their motivations as villains
Personally I think that female characters should be the same as male charactes in that they should span the whole breadth of human experience. Just like men women are individuals with different personalities and experiences and most importantly women are humans. That means women can be anywhere on the spectrum of good and evil, stupid or smart, competent/incompetent, caring/selfish etc etc. As long as theyre fully formed and not a charicature and make sense in the story and world
A good example of a quiet healer and a loving daughter would be Sorcha from Juliet Marillier's "Daughter of the Forest." Marillier actually does "soft" women characters incredibly well throughout her body of work, especially with the heroines of "Daughter of the Forest," "Son of the Shadows" (both healers), "Wolfskin" (a priestess), and "Foxmask" (a young woman with a talent for embroidery and the textile arts). I really wish this author were more popular, and I'm glad to hear her get a mention in this video.
So glad to see Juliet Marillier get some recognition! I haven’t read Daughter of the Forest yet, but I loved Harp of Kings and Dance of Date. It was so refreshing to have a warrior girl allowed to be feminine. And the romance is nicely developed.
I am a male writer writing a book with 2 female POVs (3 male). I'm trying really hard to write them well an not fall into some of these cliches. This video helped tremendously, thank you so much 🔥🙏
My favorite female character is Nausicaä from the Studio Ghibli movie (and more importantly the Manga) Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind. She's is fiercly compassionate and kind towards others, and can also fight for what she believes in and to protect the ones she cares about. The movie is nice but doesn't show her full character as the manga does, i would still recommend watching it though :)
I'm currently reading chapter 5 of Nausicaa and I actually think she's basically written as a perfect person and a martyr rather than an interesting character😅 Having everyone - people, creatures and even mold! - fall head over heels for her (albeit more in sense of a messiah rather than a romantic interest) after a single interaction with her makes me roll my eyes every few pages. And of course, she has the exact superpowers she needs to play her role of a savior and a martyr 🙄
@@natasagajic1061 Yes, she is a messiah type of character, but achieving her goals requires a massive amount of effort and struggle on her part and it doesn't come easy just because she is the savior. And you seriously think you can judge a character after only 5 chapters?
@@19Rena96 After having read about 700 pages (I'm currently mid second book in the 2 big hardback bindups of the series - which _is_ chapter 5 in these editions)? And having watched the anime? And knowing the story in general? I would say yes, at that point you absolutely _can_ judge a character🙂 I'm glad she works for you as a protagonist ☺ but I just don't get the appeal. And yes, about three quarters into the story, I do think that everything comes pretty easily to her (and especially if you compare what other significant characters of her age have gone through - Asbel, Ketcha or Kushana, take your pick), because she has the _exact_ set of skills (and unreasonable, imo, adoration of others) she needs to succeed. She's in trouble? Other characters sacrifice themselves for her. She tries to sacrifice herself for others? The adversary stays their hand. She cannot speak a language? No problem, she has telepathy! Just to name a few instances among many 😅 Again, I'm glad she works for you ✨, but I can't agree that, for my taste at least, she's an interesting female character 🤔
@@natasagajic1061 People love Nausicaä because of her actions and how she treats others, friend AND foe! Just in real life, kindness and compassion is what compels others to like (and follow) you. Everything you just mentioned is a non issue because that's simply how the story goes and doesn't make her a worse character in the slightest? Just out of curiousity. What are some female characters you consider "well written" ?
At 23:00, remember that for much of recorded human history women did not have much say in who they became a wife to. So a fantasy in which a princess can tame a beast into a prince would be highly valuable amongst women of those time periods.
Not finished the video yet but shallan is such a great example of the naive character from all angles, with the growth she goes through while keeping the sunny disposition but also the things she’s gone through that maintain her naivety to a degree throughout her personal journey
The timing of this is perfect! I'm a male who is currently writing female characters and working on making sure they're primarily nuanced human beings. I agreed with most of the points brought up and it's super helpful seeing these points all laid out in one video. :)
I came from a family of male healers who are protectors, and strong women A type personalities who are also happily homemakers and mothers as their chosen profession. It's always been frustrating to see stories where women are pushed as weak or submissive and stupid for being mothers when my own chose it over a medical career, raised multiple kids to be successful people, refusing to let them fail, fighting challenges against her family, etc. Super complex and amazing character who could be described as many things but never weak, stupid, or submissive.
I think we need more female characters who are genuinely humble and/or tragic. I think of Spiderman who is struggling in his own life, but still sacrifices deeply to serve, normal everyday people. Or Harry Dresden who is extremely hard on himself, and is terrified of what he might turn into, but over and over again he makes difficult choices that cost him deeply because he desperately wants to be someone who will do the right thing, even though he doesn't always know what that means. Too many female characters keep whining about how they 'deserve' more than what life has dealt them, or how unfair society is. Give me more tragic female characters who selflessly sacrifice themselves without getting bitter about it.
I’ve started saying, “we need less strong independent women and more strong competent women” in our stories. Competence is key to me because it’s flexible enough to encompass many attributes without pigeon holing someone into a stereotype. Side note, my author friend, McKenna Rowell, writes some of my favorite female characters. I don’t care much for historical fiction (I prefer science-fiction and fantasy), but she writes excellent characters and stories that I really enjoy reading.
I think some of the stuff we see in contemporary fiction regarding female characters is a pendulum swing from the previous position of women on extreme end to the other extreme side. Also authors should show both* masculine and feminine aspects of their female characters.
After watching this video you should absolutely read the Sevenwaters Triology Juliiete Marillier. It meets so many of the things you said about women of all kinds of personalities, motivations, and all aspects of strength. Not just physical strength. (TW for assault. It's explored so well though, and addresses the complaints in the video)
I find personalities really interesting to explore because they are determined by both experiences and genetics. I find it really fun to see how two people, maybe siblings, are different or similar because of their experiences. I have two characters, brothers, who are both very similar to their mom, but drastically different from each other. All three are intensely loyal, but one brother is really naive and optimistic, whereas the other is cynical and pessimistic. The mom, who has more rounded experiences, is more in between and tries to see the best in people, but understands that not everyone can be trusted. Anyway.. that is MY rant; I like comparing/contrasting similar characters. It's fun.
A few years ago I read The Sword of Winter by Marta Randall and the FMC (Lyeth) was really interesting. She was a bit "I'm strong which means I beat things up and have no emotion" but it was because she had a lot of issues with trusting people and being vulnerable which was worked on throughout the book. She also accidentally adopts this boy right at the start and she grows to love and care for him without losing her whole personality to become super maternal and soft. I really loved reading her story
Showing older women as main characters is a good reason why Sleeping Beauty is actually a good feminist movie. Also, it was really the older women who defeated Maleficent, not Prince Philip, who is only the pawn.
Thank you for acknowledging that "just like a man" and "just pamper me" can legitimately come from valid or good intentioned places, even we do also need to see my nuance and/or progression away from or beyond just those things now. 🙂 I really don't think shaming these things is the way to actually grow or move beyond them at all in reality. I think looking at them and seeing/understanding/sympathizing/acknowledging where they came from and why and treating it gently[ much like we should do for our flawed/imperfect past/younger selves] for doing the best that it could at a time, in addition to recognizing that it shouldn't just stop there and only there all the time forever, is the only way to really progress. But, I dunno, maybe that's just me or something. 😊💖💖 Completely agree with you on love-triangles, too! With the small added caveat of maybe sometimes it's actually okay if a character is torn between two or more love-interests specifically because when you know you know and they know they love more than just one of them and they just don't know if their love-interests would all feel similarly okay with that but why-choose if not for that possibility-monogamy or even voluntary singledom is all wonderful, but not the only possible options that could be perfectly good and wonderful too; so long as it's all voluntary and informed and consenting, to each their own. 😊
I'd love to see more characters who just happen to be female, they do not have to be a love interest, someone who has to prove they rise above their status, someone who is a strong, or anything female. Just a normal character who just is a female and is not defined as "not male"
1:01:07 the fact you mention not many fantasy stories having parents that are fathers is actually crazy. Because that’s literally the entire thru-line of my novel lol nice. Also, almost everything in this, is what Ive implemented in it. So, I feel pretty good about writing characters.
I just want to add that it's also fine to write a story in which nobody is interested in bucking the system or redefining society or traditions. If your story is set in an "old-fashioned" society in which men work and do the warring and women stay home and take care of the kids and the house. It's totally fine if all the characters are on board with it. You don't have to be interested in it as a reader. But that's fine. It's also fine to like it and not want to read a story that is filled with lots of "destroy the patriarchy" messaging.
Yes, I agree!!! I myself have a problem with the "woman written by a male autor" being looked down upon. That books are our history. It is so many times sad that book do reflect the time in which they are written, also meaning RL. We should be gratefull we didn't experience some kind of " The Handmaden story" distopial world order in RL but instead world does more forward in so many ways. So let it be please. One doean't need to read those books if one has a problem with it BUT also stop that allmighty judgy looking down upon as well. I want to read about a warrior woman in tight skin-revealing outfit like The Princess of Mars. Also 🤔 why is it a male writer folt that woman is wearing a short pants & wielding a sword on warm Martian climate and not in-book-c?FMC-choice, for example. It does tie in to the above "strong woman acts like man" trope in a way. Thank you for reading my rant.
Yeahhh Also one point I wanna bring up, There’s a funny saying I’ve seen, I don’t remember it accurately so forgive me if I’m wrong, but it was something like; the strongest man of England loses to the weakest woman of Scandinavia, just because of the magnitude of strength it took back then to do chores without the modern conveniences of today. We don’t give the women of the past enough credit for the lives they led. Also feel like back then people had less choice to do as they wanted and follow their dreams, both men and women, they just worked hard and took care of their families ( I’m not talking about the 1800s or even 1700s, I’m saying wayyyyy back when, especially in rural areas where people lived simple lives.) It was just decided to divvy up the chores and workload like that, honestly I respect it. As long as there’s no abuse or taking advantage or laziness, I can respect it.
the descent into madness/evil is exactly what my female main character is going through in the series I am writing. She starts as a hero, has a villain arc, and then has a realizaton and tries her best to climb back to good
I really love the FMC in the YA fantasy series Folk of the Air, Jude Duarte. I think she was a complex character, written pretty well with many emotions and insecurities as a mortal. She discusses her body odor, her injuries (and her injuries do stick around and inhibit her), especially her missing finger tip and all the trauma she's gone through. Her trauma is the reason she does what she does and thinks the way she thinks, but I love how its discussed and she grows from it.
YES! Holy crow is a thing! That was not a typo. 😉 6:10 “Has a tendency to see something that does well, that’s eye opening, creates empathy, it might make people think, etc., to they say, “THAT MADE MONEY! LET’S TO MORE OF THAT!” so they focus on and look for that one thing, because it made money, and do it over and over again.” THIS! So much THIS! I hate how traditional publishing is only in the biz to make money. I have zero doubt there are piles and piles of manuscripts of wonderful stories that get overlooked and rejected because either the plot, the characters, the genre, the sub-plot…. whatever, isn’t what is making money right. Support Self-Publishers! I know there is a lot of crap from the SP world because some authors aren't spending the time/money on editing, beta readers, peer review, etc., but many of us do. We take pride in our work and want to put the absolute best product out there for folks to enjoy, and most of us self-published because our stories aren't what will make money for the trad publishers. Look us up. You might be surprised!
I, unfortunately, DNFed quite a few books this month due to the exact problems mentioned in this video! I got the idea that the authors (surprisingly most of them are women) want to give us a strong female character, but for some reason they never celebrate the feminism by allowing their character to be a woman. Quite the contrary, they have to wear men's cloth, and/or adopt manly manners, they have to be, or can only be able to be recognized as a strong woman by....being a man? By completely giving up all the feminine features that (should be) celebrated? And unanimously, these FMC did this for survival purposes. I was so annoyed.
36:20 Injuries, yes! Let them remain and affect the plot. I love well done injuries in books, let me feel the angst, even if I know they'll be fine eventually since they're the mc. (Injuries irl tho can stay away). There's a game "Radiant Hostoria: White Chronicle" (something like that) that actually had a good delivery on this. Early in the game the MC loses his companions and is mortally wounded, but then gets to travel back in time to change what happened. But while the world changes, his own self remains in the same condition he was before he traveled. Meaning he's still mortally wounded. The best part is, while the gameplay had healing mechanics those did not affect the plot injury, so even if he's healed in battle, storywise he's still injured. The situation eventually gets resolved, he collapses and is taken to the doctor, hovers at the door of death for a while and is fine again after some time, with all his friends worrying and telling him not to overdo it. I noticed it particularly because there was another game I'd played before where the character got mortally wounded and started battle with low health, but then was healed in battle and the story wound was magically healed too, and I felt cheated out of my emotions😅
59:51 love the comment about lack of father MCs in novels. The only one I can recall is “The Road” by Cormac McCarthy, that I surprisingly read in college for a course, and it was a gut-wrenching read. Leaves you feeling empty by the end, and I love it so much as I was so invested in it. What a wild ride
An excellent mad scientist female main character is Maomao from Apothecary Diaries. It's not a fantasy, but a historical drama set in imperial China, but highly recommend it for anyone interested in exploring that time period. I especially love the way the story explores the gender politics and realities women face in imperial China, and the way our main character navigates those realities without beating us over the head is fascinating and such a breath of fresh air.
i think the idea of the "bad" male character taking care of everything instead of just like, a nice dude, comes from people with low self esteem not finding it realistic that a nice person would do that for them without ulterior motives. idk just a theory.
I agree with overuse of “female” being annoying. Every time I hear it instead of woman or girl I hear the droning old science guy voice, “The female of the species….” 😂
If you're interested in a subverted gender oppression novel where women are trying to free men from a radical matriarch, I'd recommend 'Sunset of Tyranny'
Ah, the mention of the strong female character who finds someone reliable and feels like, "Oh, thank God. I can leave these heavy responsibilities to this guy/share burdens finally and relax and I don't have to be so strong all the time" - yes. If this was actually written well I'd believe it more often because it's a real feeling that isn't based on gender even. That relief factor of sharing burdens is written better in found family tropes than romance when...honestly, shouldn't some romance be a kind of "found family"? Someone you can trust completely, rely on, has your back, and feels like home? Rather than "man has muscles and a mermaid line, def can trust him and turn into a damsel now." This has been my unsolicited internet person opinion.
Shoutout to Leigh Bardugo for giving two loving, supportive parents to Inej and a loving and well-meaning, but not very competent mother to Alex Stern. Both were refreshing. I'm glad the "strong female lead who's by default good at everything and never requires help" trope is getting some push back. Maybe let's not teach young girls they can only be strong if they never ask for help to get out of danger. P.S. you're watching ATLA for the first time? I'm so jealous, you're in for a treat.
I love Leigh’s different dynamics with women. Alina and Genya’s friendship is among the best I have ever read. I’m in the middle of Ninth House and appreciate how Alex and Dawes know when to put their differences aside for bigger matters.
38:25 It's a basic stereo type that isn't based on historical facts for every country or time period. Men traveled a lot, especially if they owned a business or were in a position of power: Duke, King, or Earl. Usually it was the woman who was in charge of the business or land (depending on country & time period) well the men where away. In fact some jobs considered to be a men only industry wasn't 100% accurate. I'd recommend the following books for aspiring or current authors of fantasy: 1) A Tough Guide to Fantasyland by Diana Wynne Jones - think of it as a glossary for terms that are clichés in fantasy writing. 2) Writer's Complete Fantasy Reference by multiple authors. 3) Putting the Fact in Fantasy by multiple writers I recommend them all but if you get just 1 of them I'd recommend #3. It talks about men & women rolls, ranks, wounds, etc.
I think the whole bad boy thing is in a lot of cases related to masochistic fantasies. Sometimes a little bit of fear adds a thrill to a fantasy. It's kinda like how a lot of women have r*pe fantasies but it's not the same as wanting to be r*ped in real life because in a fantasy you are in complete control. I get the appeal and sometimes I'm in the mood for something like that, but generally not a whole book. And if it's not internally consistent with the characters themselves, it's a no from me.
Dany from game of thrones is the example of ‘hero turning villain’ but it was so rushed and poorly done on show (not happened in books yet) that almost everyone hated it
35:33 Reminds me there's this comedy trio where I'm from who in different series portray three brothers going on hilarious adventures. (They also play most of the other characters they meet and it's fantastic🤣) At one point they were time traveling and ended up meeting reverse Robin Hood - his name was Hood Robin and he stole from the poor and gave to the rich. He was in love with the beautiful maiden Maryann, as the story goes, whom he had only seen from a distance and never talked to. She was blindingly beautiful on the outside, and then she smiled. And oh, what a smile. Toothbrush? Who's that?😂 Welp, no wedding bells there. And before the brothers left they suggested he do some rebranding, which is how we ended up with the Robin Hood we know and love🤣
The ingenue in the book series I’m writing goes through HELL, and she’s so different at the end. My co-writer and I didn’t like the idea of a character going through so much, and there not being ramifications. No one in 1930’s mafia noir/“dark romance” (I don’t think that applies, but I’ve had several readers say it does) can come out unscathed.
I'm also missing so much representation for tall female characters. I feel almost every single book has a petite perfect female character that everyone has a crush on.
I agree on the "bad boy" being a twisted protector. I would add - from what I've seen in a lot of my recent reads with this trope, it's somehow more believable that the "bad boy" would do anything to protect an FMC because they are already familiar with crossing a line into morally grey or downright evil. The image of a shining knight inspires more of a rule follower who may hesitate to protect an FMC if it's at the expense of others.
Thorn by Intisar Khanani has an unusual heroine - quiet strength rather than a warrior. And she develops over the course of the book. I really appreciated Raven's Shadow duology by Patricia Briggs because it featured both mom and dad and 3 kids!
Kind of knives chau in steven universe. Even Ramona to an extent. Both grow bitter by their world experience. At least in the movie, I hear the comic is a bit deeper
My favorite character of all time is a female. Faye Valentine from Cowboy Bebop… It’s a vibe thing. He has this thick cloud of mystery, and tragedy surrounding here, and she funny and cool. 😎 🚬
Around 22 minutes, do I have a book recommendation about a girl falling for a reliable good guy! There's this series, it's fantasy/scifi, the setting is a war between two countries/empires and the main character (adult woman) is am academic who cracks the other side's cryptography and so wins the war. Years and years later she gets dragged to decipher something else and ends up meeting a war prisoner from the other side and they fall for each other, but their relationship is very adult and respectful and supportive (while there's still cool banter). First book in the series is called Encrypted, by Lindsay Buroker
I DNF'd When the Moon Hatched but if memory serves me right there is a scene where the FMC is tortured and literally the next day she's out and about. What?
My love triangle she dithers too long and her duke marries her other love interest. But she gets them both in the end. Unfortunately the Duchess's father is the necromancer king (his way of making the world a better place) and she becomes a mind control queen to protect everybody. So...
Ok. I'm gonna be controversial (not really...) Mom characters are an issue. When the mc (or even a important side character) is a mom I have yet to see a story told that doesn't reduce that person down to a person whose only motivation is her children. Her only personality is her children. She is now completely utterly defined by the expectation of being a mother who will sacrifice it all and is only driven by the well-being of their offspring. Wanna save the world? Of course it's for my children! Uhh...or because it's the world? Maybe just need to save the world? It's reductive and irksome. It's that expectation that people lose their personhood once they become a mother. More moms? Yes, please! But if they're mom characters like that? No thanks. I'd rather not.
Why do you consider a mom or a dad character for that matter, saving the world for their children a negative? Saving the world for one’s children doesn’t negate the fact at all that the character saved the world. Becoming a parent should change or alter one’s core and one’s children should be #1 in their life. This doesn’t mean a person loses their personality, but it’s called being responsible and caring. Granted this is my opinion being a person who had one parent like that and another who left their child to focus on her own interests. I think a character putting their own shtuff first and not their kids would be a bad character. There are a number of villain characters that do that. I understand what you mean by the character should not lose their personality by becoming a parent. Becoming a parent should add to a person’s character. However, a character needing to save the world for their child is still the character needing to save the world. Most characters that need to save the world do so for others that they love; even those they haven’t met yet, and oftentimes even for those they do not love. Harry Potter for example; Lily died to try to save him but also she was fighting to save the world. Molly Weasley was fighting and risking her entire family for her children AND the world. Harry was willing to die to save others, everyone else that he could. There are a bunch of books where the FMC or side characters are moms with tons of character to spare AND still put their kids first. I read a lot of romance where this happens a lot, but there’s fantasy too. Have you read the Howl’s Moving Castle Series? Sophie has A LOT of character. Brittany Fichter has some. In her Autumn Fairy Trilogy a mother gives the ultimate sacrifice to save everyone and that happens to include her child. Robin McKinley’s “Spindles End” has Katriona a motherly figure (without giving away the story) and she has plenty of character throughout; even when she goes from a main character to a side character.
Agree completely. You don't stop being a person with your own interests, ideals, and principles the minute you become a mom. You're still YOU. I'd like to see more mother characters who are devoted to their children but still find room in their minds and hearts to be interested in other things (e.g. music, art, politics) as well.
@@LisaMarieFord Because it's literally THE defining character trait of 99% of all the mother characters and hardly ever of father characters, which says a lot..
21:00 I think it’s a fantasy girls have of making the bad boy go good or the bad boy who is only good for her (aka the reverse of the good girl who goes bad for the guy). Like the girl is so “special” that the bad boy is willing to change or be nice to only her.
Well, one reason we so often see a male romantic lead that is a jerk paired with a woman who is submissive to him is because of the whole beauty and the beast psychology: he is a monster but not to me because I tamed him. It actually has very little to do with the appeal of the man himself and everything to do with how our taming of him validates something strong and feminine within ourselves. (Obviously this isn't ALL women, this relates specifically to the women who this trope appeals to.) Psychology aside, there can be a certain undeniable chemistry between two people who don't get along, as well as the idea that there will always be someone who makes you feel tongue-tied and the challenge to overcome that makes that particular dynamic more interesting than the ones that feel "easy". Now, these types of characters are really overused (and abused), but that doesn't mean it doesn't have some validity. I think the real issue here is poor execution (and generally being overdone).
24:37 I also have a problem with saying "female" for the exact same reason. Until watching this video, I haven't heard someone else voice the same concern.
Girls can have wide variety. Like octavia/ clarke in the 100. Dr halsey in Halo. The doppelgängers in the vampire diaries. They can be strong and feminine. It doesnt have to be one or the other. Extremes are ridiculous.
I am at 20min in section...I believe it is the target audiance but also writers story itself or if autor is more skilled [ finds it easy] in writting "bad boy". Would writting the other "nice guy" make the book longer 🤔 Also "bad boy" has always a tension going on for a reader and some "action" feeling to it also some twist is more easy to happen than with that other grounded kind of a man [here is more effort to be put. Is it that difficult?] Yes, maybe the combination of "fixing the man" + "different that other woman". Can someone make book sugestions here? Thx.
Balsa from Moribito: Guardian of the Spirit Everyone needs Balsa. She is one of my all time favorite FMCs (only talking about the anime because I haven't read the book yet). I love the whole show in general. She gets hired to be a bodyguard for a prince and goes on the run from assassins cause he's possessed by a water demon. She's a strong warrior but she has zero maternal instincts cause she grew up without a mother on the run from assassins with a male body guard. She's good at spear wielding and martial arts but she has whole team working with her. She's got her healer friend (a guy who is super into her but RESPECTS HER CHOICES), a duo of street kids who work as runners, and an old shaman lady who is their sprit world expert. She regularly meets with them for help and to plan what to do. She earns respect from not just being strong with a spear but because of the strength of her character. She also screws up sometimes with decisions and she admits she's wrong and makes an effort to change. We see her challenged physically and we see her struggle with her conviction. She's also still single at the end of the show. Also she's older. It's got a great sub, a great dub, the story's good, there's humor, the show has beautiful art. Please anyone watch it. It needs more love.
The irony i find about the stereotypical strong female Characters IS that their Male counterpart isnt the Chosen one Hero or the Action Hero but the OP edgelord with a "DARK" past and He IS "mysterious" and He IS so "cool" and never struggles
I can relate to the topic of growing up in a very religious conservative area. There was a girl my senior year of high school who was engaged. He was a guy she started dating as a sophomore and he was a senior. (Edit: to note, I graduated in 2005)
when you said mistborn and love triangle I was like WHAAAAT?? I've read it twice and didn't recall at all. searched for it and then remembered what you were referring to haha
This video is awesome to listen to. 21:15 Can relate - why with the guy being a bad boy haha 25:52 Precisely... one box to another 30:05 Personality and growth 32:53 "Authors, please include more gross stuff about women" 37:27 Mentor-mentee relationships 41:21 An example 42:55 Female characters with positive relationships with parents 46:03 Female MCs who are allowed to be weak 52:20 Female MCs who listen to others/ask for help
Yup, I agree with you man - the differences between men and women are at the edges.... JP spells this out the best - we have in general so much in common, it's just beyond frustrating living through this dystopian nightmare atm. Being set against each other continuously is exhausting.
i think some people also forget people can put on airs and appear naive or weak while actually just manipulating people to achieve their ends. great example in a chinese drama, Ye Bingchang in til the end of the moon, she is stone cold, but plays the naive weak woman real well. they can also be naive in one way, and strong in others, Jiang Yanli from MDZS, she literally raised her brothers while her parents were busy fighting with each other over rumors, but she's still very sheltered and protected from most of the worlds darkness, partially because she's sickly and thus spends most of her time at home. personally i love snarky woman in books-- snarky men too XDDD i can't get enough. on the note of SA, its important to remember that while its less spoken of, it happens to men as well-- and it's even harder for them to admit when they've experienced it because people down play their trauma or make fun of them for it; it's not cool, we need to recognize that its wrong regardless of the persons gender. once upon a time in lingjian mountain, if you want a funny quirky female master, there is your show XDD
I just want characters who are interesting. I am tired of it mattering that they are women or men. I am tired of reading about how they are strong and amazing because they overcame their gender. I want to read stories where if I am reading in first person, I could potentially never know the person's gender because it doesn't matter. It isn't needed for them or the story to progress.
For all those looking for more amazing older women/mom characters in their fantasy: Partial Function by JCM Berne and Sistah Samurai by Tatiana Obey! This was such a fun chat, amazing input from the viewers and loved all your reactions to them 🤩
I'd like to see less archer women and more with weapons like a longsword that would be much easier for them to athletically use (assuming human musculoskeletal average physiology)
I think we do see plenty of the “male expectation” writing you’re talking about not seeing, but it’s done in the opposite way from women. Yes, we don’t see many male characters being made to show their emotional side, but nearly every male character exhibits traits that many men in real life don’t live up to. In my opinion, this is largely due to male culture not having a self-critical evaluation like women have had with feminism. It’s deeply rooted in our culture that the actions of a ‘true man’ (aggression, taking action, fighting for what they believe in, etc) are the standard and ubiquitous drivers of plot in fiction, and it’s an expectation which in and of itself is stereotyping. So for women it’s become “true women exhibit these masculine traits” whereas for men it’s just “true men exhibit these non-feminine traits”. Both aren’t great for human beings if they’re deriving their identity from what they’re reading.
In my fantasy world, there just isn't sexism or racism because I decided that was part of the fantasy. Definitely been interesting trying to write women in it and keep my biases in check. It'll probably never be finished or see the light of day, but I hope I do well enough that people enjoy it.
I would love to see more stories with women's strengths being shown rather than them being an awesome fighter and taking down men twice their size or skill. Women handle pain way better then men, show that. Even though it is a bit of a societal cliche I do think women multi task better usually, show that. I have never seen a woman in a series deal with her period or at least have issues arrise due to that and have to deal with them, I have never seen a female character dealing with a child whilst also potentially running a business or dealing with political things in the kingdom etc. I would also love to see more stories where the male main character or characters needs help from the female characters or learns from them, my wife has taught me so much about myself rather than things externally in the world, those things have helped me so much. Why is the master always a man who teaches the young hero, I feel like they may sometimes benefit from a female. I found the section about females being written and the only time they can show they are strong is in response to sexism to be very interesting. I was thinking about it and I just thought its unfortunate but obviously some of these, likely male, authors don't have the skills needed to write females well. Then I thought well they just should be better, we need more female authors. Then I thought I have read many female authors where they write men very one dimensional too, especially the very smooth sexy slightly bad guy character, who is written to show his emotional side and that's a big break through. I guess what I am trying to say is hopefully authors with time and more books they get better and more well rounded at all parts of writing and I think these things will always happen. Joe Abercrombie being a great example, the first trilogy the female characters that were actually there were very weak. The Age of Madness trilogy the female characters I thought were excellent and one of them was my favourite new character, only beaten by Glokta.
(Okay first off SO many things just made me crack up! Not in a, "I'm laughing at you way" but just some of these things are STRAIGHT UP HYSTERICAL.) Second, yes, to SO MUCH OF THIS. Where are the balanced characters!? People are so complex and that's what makes their lives, and reading about them so enjoyable. It would be nice to have gentle and feminine FMC's who know how to throw a punch and maybe even LOVES a non-conventional female sport (like boxing or maybe even hocky) because they genuinely find it interesting to watch, not because it has a bunch or burly men in it. Character's with seemingly contradicting interests and traits would be so lovely. And yes, please, for once (maybe even forever?) let the hot guy get friend-zoned and treated like he's just another human being. (Maybe even let that be the reason the unreasonably attractive male character RESPECTS the FMC?) Also a side note, I don't think I have ever read a series where the romance/love interest isn't even MENTIONED in the first book or so. It would be interesting to see a series that brings in the love interest and romance AFTER we have gotten to know the FMC and her life and the people in it a little bit.
I'm loving this video so far. I'm writing this while only having watched part of it, so if I make a point that someone else already made, my apologies. I wanted to try to explain the bad boy thing, but I do find that it's a little difficult to explain well, so I hope it makes sense. The Bad Boy trope happens, at least in romances or in stories with romantic elements, because there are a lot of women who, within the context of FICTION, have fantasies about men (or partners, I guess) who are dangerous and a bit of an asshole, either at first, or only with others. It has to do with wanting a partner who, for example, doesn't care about social constraints, or maybe the law, who can get away with doing whatever they want while still being willing to protect the person they are with. It often also has to do with reading or watching a character who will say the harsh or taboo things that most people wish we could say, but are too afraid to. The reason the bad boy can't just be a kind person, is because that isn't a bad boy., or at least that's not what people are looking for when they want to read about or watch one. There are exceptions, but asking for a bad boy who is kind and gentle or immediately supportive and loving to a partner is a bit like asking for a story about shifters without having any actual shifters. It's genre, or in this case, trope expectation. Part of the bad boy image is someone who is rough around the edges, and often, but not always damaged. Take that away, and for most who like the trope, they aren't actually getting what they want. This is coming from someone who, again, in the context of FCTION, NOT REAL LIFE, loves this trope. If I read about a "bad boy" who is too nice, he doesn't feel like a bad boy. But the important thing is, writers should be writing characters with these things in mind, understanding why they're writing a character that way and who he or she is for.
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the coolest thing about mulan is that she does have to act like a man HOWEVER in the climax her fellow soldiers have to dress up and pretend to be women in turn for the plan to work. the moment when they show the gang in their courtesan disguises, about to scale a wall using the method mulan came up with during the training montage, as "be a man" is playing in the background is one of my favorite moments in the movie (and also probably in cinema history) bc it's such a perfect payoff both narratively and thematically. just ties the gender related themes of the movie together so well. gosh i love mulan😭
The damsel in distress can work as long as you give the damsel some character, like giving her a personality. 😂
Yes, I don't like this "hating on tropes" attitude no matter how it is written. You can do any trope you want as long it is different enough somehow.
I absolutely love the Earthsea miniseries. Kristin Kreuk's character Tenar is the sweetest "good-est" character ever. But when she is betrayed and thrown in the dungeon, she stands strong. She's not a fighter. But when they threaten to torture and kill her, she, very clearly scared, lifts her chin, looks the villains right in the eye, and essentially tells them, "Go right ahead. But the information you want will follow me to my grave.".
THAT is a strong character. Eventually, the protagonist, Shawn Ashmore's Ged, comes to rescue her and she is extremely grateful and then helps him defeat the villains. Not by suddenly being a badass warrior. But by doing what she can do.
Fr, just don't make being in distress the damsel's only purpose in the story and it works like a clock. We love a good rescue plotline.
I don't remember the movie's name, it was a modern fantasy/comedy where monsters like zombies, werewolves, vampires, etc. lived hidden among humans. And I really liked the twist of the useless damsel in distress.
Spoilers:
The useless damsel in distress was only pretending to be useless, and was the main villian all along. She was a powerful monster hunter, and allowed herself to be captured so she could absorb the magical mcguffin and gain unparalleled powers.
@vtrwriter Oh come on! Ya can't just leave me hangin like that!
I’m so sick of reading headstrong/stubborn FMCs…. It’s so overused and it’s frustrating to read because they refuse to take advice(usually from Male characters) and ultimately make poor decisions which lead to some avoidable catastrophic event. What’s worse, is that there usually isn’t much character development following their actions, and they will most likely not learn from their stubbornness!! I would personally like to see more FMCs be more reasonable and trusting, overall see more personal growth and relationship building.
But this scenario you wrote is actually IRL reality.
My FMC is headstrong and speaks her mind when goaded but she does suffer a great deal bc of her actions.
Because everyone is brainwashed by feminist propaganda these days. Women aren't supposed to be women anymore.
Because of all the f*minist propaganda going around. Women aren't supposed to behave like women anymore.
I actually like stubborn/headstrong FMCs, but when they refuse to even consider being open to any outside influence from anyone ever no matter what and never learn....I feel like that's diverging beyond just stubborn and/or headstrong and right into full-on bullheaded or even outright pigheadedishness, and I really can't stand that either.
That comment about people not knowing how to write subtle characters changes without losing the core really hit a spot with me
Honestly, people can’t read subtle character stuff, either 😂
One of the best female characters I've read about it a very long time is Yona from the manga Yona of the Dawn. She starts out a spoiled princess, someone who doesn't care much about anything other than her hair and her crush, but she's forced very quickly to grow up and get stronger, and we see her learn so many things, like shoot a bow and arrow and lead an army. She turns into a super strong woman who also recognizes her emotions. She never loses her inner kindness, but instead learns how to turn it into a weapon. She reminds me a lot of Katara from Avatar. Highly recommend Yona of the Dawn!
I agree. At the start of the story Yona was annoying and then her story line growth so well that she became very likable. Specially cause her development feel real for a person and a girl in term of maturity, specific skills, self-confidence, mindset,... and not pure force.
Oooh, that's a classic!
Personally one of my favorite characters of all times is Shion Sonozaki, from Higurashi (the VN/manga, she's a lot more well developed than in the anime).
I would like to see more happily, healthily married couples in fantasy...
If you like sweet/clean romance, try A Keen Mind and A Phantom Song. It's a slow burn, but I did try to capture a very healthy family dynamic in that one. Can also recommend Catherine Stein's Love at Second Sight and The Earl on the Train. Hmm, I liked Bet Me by Jennifer Cruisie. She plays with hints of fairytales throughout, but the main plot is Beauty and the Beast with a misunderstanding or two between them.
@@AngelaCSpears thank you for the friendly recommendations!
@@AngelaCSpears Where are your books available?
the point about the old wise mentor never being a woman is a really good point. If there is such a character, they usually end up being 1 The villain or 2 kidnapped/ unalived just for character and plot motivation. Like an old lady, damsel in distress lol
MORE female villains. I grew up absolutely loving Maleficent and the White Witch as some of the coolest characters of all time. That kind of character doesn't seem to exist much anymore. Instead, they are watered down just to be the real victims, and I should actually hate some guy instead? Weird modern villain requirement.
Honestly, I'd love more female villains who aren't r-pists. More villains just in general who aren't as well, but I seem to be stumbling into a lot of books where the female villain starts off promising and then just turns into weaponized sexuality because the author doesn't know what else to do with them. We need more good, well-written female villains
Probably the result that villains arent allowed to BE ugly anymore and mostly Look Like gorgous Models. Like Imagining a twisted grandma villains WHO Takes Care of her children by Experimenting ON them Like Frankenstein to improve them
Yes to this! Give me some more pure evil women
@@laisphinto6372 maleficent and the white witch were both beautiful, I don't think you understood their comment. It's not about physical beauty, it's about their motivations as villains
Personally I think that female characters should be the same as male charactes in that they should span the whole breadth of human experience. Just like men women are individuals with different personalities and experiences and most importantly women are humans. That means women can be anywhere on the spectrum of good and evil, stupid or smart, competent/incompetent, caring/selfish etc etc. As long as theyre fully formed and not a charicature and make sense in the story and world
A good example of a quiet healer and a loving daughter would be Sorcha from Juliet Marillier's "Daughter of the Forest." Marillier actually does "soft" women characters incredibly well throughout her body of work, especially with the heroines of "Daughter of the Forest," "Son of the Shadows" (both healers), "Wolfskin" (a priestess), and "Foxmask" (a young woman with a talent for embroidery and the textile arts). I really wish this author were more popular, and I'm glad to hear her get a mention in this video.
So glad to see Juliet Marillier get some recognition! I haven’t read Daughter of the Forest yet, but I loved Harp of Kings and Dance of Date. It was so refreshing to have a warrior girl allowed to be feminine. And the romance is nicely developed.
I am a male writer writing a book with 2 female POVs (3 male). I'm trying really hard to write them well an not fall into some of these cliches. This video helped tremendously, thank you so much 🔥🙏
My favorite female character is Nausicaä from the Studio Ghibli movie (and more importantly the Manga) Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind. She's is fiercly compassionate and kind towards others, and can also fight for what she believes in and to protect the ones she cares about.
The movie is nice but doesn't show her full character as the manga does, i would still recommend watching it though :)
I'm currently reading chapter 5 of Nausicaa and I actually think she's basically written as a perfect person and a martyr rather than an interesting character😅 Having everyone - people, creatures and even mold! - fall head over heels for her (albeit more in sense of a messiah rather than a romantic interest) after a single interaction with her makes me roll my eyes every few pages. And of course, she has the exact superpowers she needs to play her role of a savior and a martyr 🙄
@@natasagajic1061 Yes, she is a messiah type of character, but achieving her goals requires a massive amount of effort and struggle on her part and it doesn't come easy just because she is the savior.
And you seriously think you can judge a character after only 5 chapters?
@@19Rena96 After having read about 700 pages (I'm currently mid second book in the 2 big hardback bindups of the series - which _is_ chapter 5 in these editions)? And having watched the anime? And knowing the story in general? I would say yes, at that point you absolutely _can_ judge a character🙂
I'm glad she works for you as a protagonist ☺ but I just don't get the appeal. And yes, about three quarters into the story, I do think that everything comes pretty easily to her (and especially if you compare what other significant characters of her age have gone through - Asbel, Ketcha or Kushana, take your pick), because she has the _exact_ set of skills (and unreasonable, imo, adoration of others) she needs to succeed. She's in trouble? Other characters sacrifice themselves for her. She tries to sacrifice herself for others? The adversary stays their hand. She cannot speak a language? No problem, she has telepathy! Just to name a few instances among many 😅
Again, I'm glad she works for you ✨, but I can't agree that, for my taste at least, she's an interesting female character 🤔
@@natasagajic1061 People love Nausicaä because of her actions and how she treats others, friend AND foe! Just in real life, kindness and compassion is what compels others to like (and follow) you.
Everything you just mentioned is a non issue because that's simply how the story goes and doesn't make her a worse character in the slightest?
Just out of curiousity. What are some female characters you consider "well written" ?
@@natasagajic1061
If Nausicaä gets everything handed to her, 99% of characters in general get it as well.
I love these long chatty videos😊
And Mulan is still one of my all time favourite movies, in large part because of the reasons you listed.
After filming this, I wanted to rewatch it 😂 Might have to squeeze that in sometime!
I would love to see this for "Male Love interests/Female love interests" cause I feel like they're their own beasts.
At 23:00, remember that for much of recorded human history women did not have much say in who they became a wife to. So a fantasy in which a princess can tame a beast into a prince would be highly valuable amongst women of those time periods.
lol “end game” is the phrase you were looking for when you’re talking about who the character will be with at the end of the story…maybe lol
Yes, “End game” is the correct phrase.
Not finished the video yet but shallan is such a great example of the naive character from all angles, with the growth she goes through while keeping the sunny disposition but also the things she’s gone through that maintain her naivety to a degree throughout her personal journey
The timing of this is perfect! I'm a male who is currently writing female characters and working on making sure they're primarily nuanced human beings. I agreed with most of the points brought up and it's super helpful seeing these points all laid out in one video. :)
I came from a family of male healers who are protectors, and strong women A type personalities who are also happily homemakers and mothers as their chosen profession. It's always been frustrating to see stories where women are pushed as weak or submissive and stupid for being mothers when my own chose it over a medical career, raised multiple kids to be successful people, refusing to let them fail, fighting challenges against her family, etc. Super complex and amazing character who could be described as many things but never weak, stupid, or submissive.
I think we need more female characters who are genuinely humble and/or tragic.
I think of Spiderman who is struggling in his own life, but still sacrifices deeply to serve, normal everyday people. Or Harry Dresden who is extremely hard on himself, and is terrified of what he might turn into, but over and over again he makes difficult choices that cost him deeply because he desperately wants to be someone who will do the right thing, even though he doesn't always know what that means.
Too many female characters keep whining about how they 'deserve' more than what life has dealt them, or how unfair society is. Give me more tragic female characters who selflessly sacrifice themselves without getting bitter about it.
Signalis
I’ve started saying, “we need less strong independent women and more strong competent women” in our stories. Competence is key to me because it’s flexible enough to encompass many attributes without pigeon holing someone into a stereotype.
Side note, my author friend, McKenna Rowell, writes some of my favorite female characters. I don’t care much for historical fiction (I prefer science-fiction and fantasy), but she writes excellent characters and stories that I really enjoy reading.
That's what l really like about Ilona Andrews' books - everyone is competent! (Men and women, main characters, side characters)
@@mediabunny4016Is there a standalone that I could give a try?
I think some of the stuff we see in contemporary fiction regarding female characters is a pendulum swing from the previous position of women on extreme end to the other extreme side. Also authors should show both* masculine and feminine aspects of their female characters.
After watching this video you should absolutely read the Sevenwaters Triology Juliiete Marillier. It meets so many of the things you said about women of all kinds of personalities, motivations, and all aspects of strength. Not just physical strength. (TW for assault. It's explored so well though, and addresses the complaints in the video)
I find personalities really interesting to explore because they are determined by both experiences and genetics. I find it really fun to see how two people, maybe siblings, are different or similar because of their experiences. I have two characters, brothers, who are both very similar to their mom, but drastically different from each other. All three are intensely loyal, but one brother is really naive and optimistic, whereas the other is cynical and pessimistic. The mom, who has more rounded experiences, is more in between and tries to see the best in people, but understands that not everyone can be trusted. Anyway.. that is MY rant; I like comparing/contrasting similar characters. It's fun.
A few years ago I read The Sword of Winter by Marta Randall and the FMC (Lyeth) was really interesting. She was a bit "I'm strong which means I beat things up and have no emotion" but it was because she had a lot of issues with trusting people and being vulnerable which was worked on throughout the book. She also accidentally adopts this boy right at the start and she grows to love and care for him without losing her whole personality to become super maternal and soft. I really loved reading her story
I agree with everything and would also like to add my love for the doggy contributions 😂❤
Showing older women as main characters is a good reason why Sleeping Beauty is actually a good feminist movie. Also, it was really the older women who defeated Maleficent, not Prince Philip, who is only the pawn.
I love these long discussions
Thank you for acknowledging that "just like a man" and "just pamper me" can legitimately come from valid or good intentioned places, even we do also need to see my nuance and/or progression away from or beyond just those things now. 🙂
I really don't think shaming these things is the way to actually grow or move beyond them at all in reality. I think looking at them and seeing/understanding/sympathizing/acknowledging where they came from and why and treating it gently[ much like we should do for our flawed/imperfect past/younger selves] for doing the best that it could at a time, in addition to recognizing that it shouldn't just stop there and only there all the time forever, is the only way to really progress. But, I dunno, maybe that's just me or something. 😊💖💖
Completely agree with you on love-triangles, too! With the small added caveat of maybe sometimes it's actually okay if a character is torn between two or more love-interests specifically because when you know you know and they know they love more than just one of them and they just don't know if their love-interests would all feel similarly okay with that but why-choose if not for that possibility-monogamy or even voluntary singledom is all wonderful, but not the only possible options that could be perfectly good and wonderful too; so long as it's all voluntary and informed and consenting, to each their own. 😊
Hey can you make a video about fantasy series with female protagonists
I'd love to see more characters who just happen to be female, they do not have to be a love interest, someone who has to prove they rise above their status, someone who is a strong, or anything female. Just a normal character who just is a female and is not defined as "not male"
1:01:07 the fact you mention not many fantasy stories having parents that are fathers is actually crazy. Because that’s literally the entire thru-line of my novel lol nice. Also, almost everything in this, is what Ive implemented in it. So, I feel pretty good about writing characters.
I just want to add that it's also fine to write a story in which nobody is interested in bucking the system or redefining society or traditions. If your story is set in an "old-fashioned" society in which men work and do the warring and women stay home and take care of the kids and the house. It's totally fine if all the characters are on board with it. You don't have to be interested in it as a reader. But that's fine. It's also fine to like it and not want to read a story that is filled with lots of "destroy the patriarchy" messaging.
Yes, I agree!!!
I myself have a problem with the "woman written by a male autor" being looked down upon. That books are our history. It is so many times sad that book do reflect the time in which they are written, also meaning RL.
We should be gratefull we didn't experience some kind of " The Handmaden story" distopial world order in RL but instead world does more forward in so many ways.
So let it be please. One doean't need to read those books if one has a problem with it BUT also stop that allmighty judgy looking down upon as well. I want to read about a warrior woman in tight skin-revealing outfit like The Princess of Mars.
Also 🤔 why is it a male writer folt that woman is wearing a short pants & wielding a sword on warm Martian climate and not in-book-c?FMC-choice, for example.
It does tie in to the above "strong woman acts like man" trope in a way.
Thank you for reading my rant.
Yeahhh Also one point I wanna bring up, There’s a funny saying I’ve seen, I don’t remember it accurately so forgive me if I’m wrong, but it was something like; the strongest man of England loses to the weakest woman of Scandinavia, just because of the magnitude of strength it took back then to do chores without the modern conveniences of today. We don’t give the women of the past enough credit for the lives they led. Also feel like back then people had less choice to do as they wanted and follow their dreams, both men and women, they just worked hard and took care of their families ( I’m not talking about the 1800s or even 1700s, I’m saying wayyyyy back when, especially in rural areas where people lived simple lives.) It was just decided to divvy up the chores and workload like that, honestly I respect it. As long as there’s no abuse or taking advantage or laziness, I can respect it.
the descent into madness/evil is exactly what my female main character is going through in the series I am writing. She starts as a hero, has a villain arc, and then has a realizaton and tries her best to climb back to good
I really love the FMC in the YA fantasy series Folk of the Air, Jude Duarte. I think she was a complex character, written pretty well with many emotions and insecurities as a mortal. She discusses her body odor, her injuries (and her injuries do stick around and inhibit her), especially her missing finger tip and all the trauma she's gone through. Her trauma is the reason she does what she does and thinks the way she thinks, but I love how its discussed and she grows from it.
YES! Holy crow is a thing! That was not a typo. 😉
6:10 “Has a tendency to see something that does well, that’s eye opening, creates empathy, it might make people think, etc., to they say, “THAT MADE MONEY! LET’S TO MORE OF THAT!” so they focus on and look for that one thing, because it made money, and do it over and over again.”
THIS! So much THIS! I hate how traditional publishing is only in the biz to make money. I have zero doubt there are piles and piles of manuscripts of wonderful stories that get overlooked and rejected because either the plot, the characters, the genre, the sub-plot…. whatever, isn’t what is making money right.
Support Self-Publishers! I know there is a lot of crap from the SP world because some authors aren't spending the time/money on editing, beta readers, peer review, etc., but many of us do. We take pride in our work and want to put the absolute best product out there for folks to enjoy, and most of us self-published because our stories aren't what will make money for the trad publishers. Look us up. You might be surprised!
Dungeon Meshi delivers on a lot of the points raised in this video and everyone should read/watch it!
I, unfortunately, DNFed quite a few books this month due to the exact problems mentioned in this video! I got the idea that the authors (surprisingly most of them are women) want to give us a strong female character, but for some reason they never celebrate the feminism by allowing their character to be a woman. Quite the contrary, they have to wear men's cloth, and/or adopt manly manners, they have to be, or can only be able to be recognized as a strong woman by....being a man? By completely giving up all the feminine features that (should be) celebrated? And unanimously, these FMC did this for survival purposes. I was so annoyed.
36:20
Injuries, yes! Let them remain and affect the plot.
I love well done injuries in books, let me feel the angst, even if I know they'll be fine eventually since they're the mc.
(Injuries irl tho can stay away).
There's a game "Radiant Hostoria: White Chronicle" (something like that) that actually had a good delivery on this.
Early in the game the MC loses his companions and is mortally wounded, but then gets to travel back in time to change what happened.
But while the world changes, his own self remains in the same condition he was before he traveled. Meaning he's still mortally wounded.
The best part is, while the gameplay had healing mechanics those did not affect the plot injury, so even if he's healed in battle, storywise he's still injured.
The situation eventually gets resolved, he collapses and is taken to the doctor, hovers at the door of death for a while and is fine again after some time, with all his friends worrying and telling him not to overdo it.
I noticed it particularly because there was another game I'd played before where the character got mortally wounded and started battle with low health, but then was healed in battle and the story wound was magically healed too, and I felt cheated out of my emotions😅
59:51 love the comment about lack of father MCs in novels. The only one I can recall is “The Road” by Cormac McCarthy, that I surprisingly read in college for a course, and it was a gut-wrenching read. Leaves you feeling empty by the end, and I love it so much as I was so invested in it. What a wild ride
An excellent mad scientist female main character is Maomao from Apothecary Diaries. It's not a fantasy, but a historical drama set in imperial China, but highly recommend it for anyone interested in exploring that time period. I especially love the way the story explores the gender politics and realities women face in imperial China, and the way our main character navigates those realities without beating us over the head is fascinating and such a breath of fresh air.
i think the idea of the "bad" male character taking care of everything instead of just like, a nice dude, comes from people with low self esteem not finding it realistic that a nice person would do that for them without ulterior motives. idk just a theory.
Ursula K Le Guin…,
Everyone needs to read her.
Facts!
Cue that epic movie version with synths of Mulan making her decision in the rain and cutting her hair before heading out in her father’s armor!
I'm surprised she did not name her channel 'Brooks Books' but I guess people might think her first name was Brook lol but that would be so tempting.
I would love to get back to the stories that treat male and female like character traits instead of personalities.
This was a great discussion! Thanks Elliot
I agree with overuse of “female” being annoying. Every time I hear it instead of woman or girl I hear the droning old science guy voice, “The female of the species….” 😂
I hear it in a Ferengi voice, dripping with contempt. Can't stand it.
If you're interested in a subverted gender oppression novel where women are trying to free men from a radical matriarch, I'd recommend 'Sunset of Tyranny'
Ah, the mention of the strong female character who finds someone reliable and feels like, "Oh, thank God. I can leave these heavy responsibilities to this guy/share burdens finally and relax and I don't have to be so strong all the time" - yes. If this was actually written well I'd believe it more often because it's a real feeling that isn't based on gender even.
That relief factor of sharing burdens is written better in found family tropes than romance when...honestly, shouldn't some romance be a kind of "found family"? Someone you can trust completely, rely on, has your back, and feels like home? Rather than "man has muscles and a mermaid line, def can trust him and turn into a damsel now." This has been my unsolicited internet person opinion.
Shoutout to Leigh Bardugo for giving two loving, supportive parents to Inej and a loving and well-meaning, but not very competent mother to Alex Stern. Both were refreshing.
I'm glad the "strong female lead who's by default good at everything and never requires help" trope is getting some push back. Maybe let's not teach young girls they can only be strong if they never ask for help to get out of danger.
P.S. you're watching ATLA for the first time? I'm so jealous, you're in for a treat.
I love Leigh’s different dynamics with women. Alina and Genya’s friendship is among the best I have ever read. I’m in the middle of Ninth House and appreciate how Alex and Dawes know when to put their differences aside for bigger matters.
@@crystalfairy912 Dawes is such a queen🙌🏼
"Seasons and seasons" lmao
38:25 It's a basic stereo type that isn't based on historical facts for every country or time period.
Men traveled a lot, especially if they owned a business or were in a position of power: Duke, King, or Earl. Usually it was the woman who was in charge of the business or land (depending on country & time period) well the men where away. In fact some jobs considered to be a men only industry wasn't 100% accurate.
I'd recommend the following books for aspiring or current authors of fantasy:
1) A Tough Guide to Fantasyland by Diana Wynne Jones - think of it as a glossary for terms that are clichés in fantasy writing.
2) Writer's Complete Fantasy Reference by multiple authors.
3) Putting the Fact in Fantasy by multiple writers
I recommend them all but if you get just 1 of them I'd recommend #3. It talks about men & women rolls, ranks, wounds, etc.
I think the whole bad boy thing is in a lot of cases related to masochistic fantasies. Sometimes a little bit of fear adds a thrill to a fantasy. It's kinda like how a lot of women have r*pe fantasies but it's not the same as wanting to be r*ped in real life because in a fantasy you are in complete control. I get the appeal and sometimes I'm in the mood for something like that, but generally not a whole book. And if it's not internally consistent with the characters themselves, it's a no from me.
Dany from game of thrones is the example of ‘hero turning villain’ but it was so rushed and poorly done on show (not happened in books yet) that almost everyone hated it
35:33
Reminds me there's this comedy trio where I'm from who in different series portray three brothers going on hilarious adventures. (They also play most of the other characters they meet and it's fantastic🤣)
At one point they were time traveling and ended up meeting reverse Robin Hood - his name was Hood Robin and he stole from the poor and gave to the rich.
He was in love with the beautiful maiden Maryann, as the story goes, whom he had only seen from a distance and never talked to. She was blindingly beautiful on the outside, and then she smiled. And oh, what a smile. Toothbrush? Who's that?😂
Welp, no wedding bells there. And before the brothers left they suggested he do some rebranding, which is how we ended up with the Robin Hood we know and love🤣
The ingenue in the book series I’m writing goes through HELL, and she’s so different at the end. My co-writer and I didn’t like the idea of a character going through so much, and there not being ramifications. No one in 1930’s mafia noir/“dark romance” (I don’t think that applies, but I’ve had several readers say it does) can come out unscathed.
"someone write that story" working on it, gimme a moment 😅
I'm also missing so much representation for tall female characters. I feel almost every single book has a petite perfect female character that everyone has a crush on.
Not just publishing. Media in general has the "gimme more just like THAT" problem.
I agree on the "bad boy" being a twisted protector. I would add - from what I've seen in a lot of my recent reads with this trope, it's somehow more believable that the "bad boy" would do anything to protect an FMC because they are already familiar with crossing a line into morally grey or downright evil. The image of a shining knight inspires more of a rule follower who may hesitate to protect an FMC if it's at the expense of others.
Wouldn't normally watch a 1 hour 18 min video. But this one was quite interesting. Thanks for doing it
Thorn by Intisar Khanani has an unusual heroine - quiet strength rather than a warrior. And she develops over the course of the book.
I really appreciated Raven's Shadow duology by Patricia Briggs because it featured both mom and dad and 3 kids!
OK, I really need to know what hair dye that is! Looks amazin
Kind of knives chau in steven universe. Even Ramona to an extent. Both grow bitter by their world experience. At least in the movie, I hear the comic is a bit deeper
I enjoyed this video. Thank you💯🤺
My favorite character of all time is a female.
Faye Valentine from Cowboy Bebop…
It’s a vibe thing. He has this thick cloud of mystery, and tragedy surrounding here, and she funny and cool. 😎 🚬
Around 22 minutes, do I have a book recommendation about a girl falling for a reliable good guy!
There's this series, it's fantasy/scifi, the setting is a war between two countries/empires and the main character (adult woman) is am academic who cracks the other side's cryptography and so wins the war. Years and years later she gets dragged to decipher something else and ends up meeting a war prisoner from the other side and they fall for each other, but their relationship is very adult and respectful and supportive (while there's still cool banter).
First book in the series is called Encrypted, by Lindsay Buroker
I DNF'd When the Moon Hatched but if memory serves me right there is a scene where the FMC is tortured and literally the next day she's out and about. What?
I would like to request a video where you talk about all the reasons Mulan is amazing! Please! 😂😁
My love triangle she dithers too long and her duke marries her other love interest. But she gets them both in the end.
Unfortunately the Duchess's father is the necromancer king (his way of making the world a better place) and she becomes a mind control queen to protect everybody. So...
Ok. I'm gonna be controversial (not really...)
Mom characters are an issue. When the mc (or even a important side character) is a mom I have yet to see a story told that doesn't reduce that person down to a person whose only motivation is her children. Her only personality is her children. She is now completely utterly defined by the expectation of being a mother who will sacrifice it all and is only driven by the well-being of their offspring. Wanna save the world? Of course it's for my children! Uhh...or because it's the world? Maybe just need to save the world?
It's reductive and irksome. It's that expectation that people lose their personhood once they become a mother.
More moms? Yes, please!
But if they're mom characters like that? No thanks. I'd rather not.
Why do you consider a mom or a dad character for that matter, saving the world for their children a negative? Saving the world for one’s children doesn’t negate the fact at all that the character saved the world.
Becoming a parent should change or alter one’s core and one’s children should be #1 in their life. This doesn’t mean a person loses their personality, but it’s called being responsible and caring. Granted this is my opinion being a person who had one parent like that and another who left their child to focus on her own interests. I think a character putting their own shtuff first and not their kids would be a bad character. There are a number of villain characters that do that.
I understand what you mean by the character should not lose their personality by becoming a parent. Becoming a parent should add to a person’s character.
However, a character needing to save the world for their child is still the character needing to save the world. Most characters that need to save the world do so for others that they love; even those they haven’t met yet, and oftentimes even for those they do not love. Harry Potter for example; Lily died to try to save him but also she was fighting to save the world. Molly Weasley was fighting and risking her entire family for her children AND the world. Harry was willing to die to save others, everyone else that he could.
There are a bunch of books where the FMC or side characters are moms with tons of character to spare AND still put their kids first. I read a lot of romance where this happens a lot, but there’s fantasy too. Have you read the Howl’s Moving Castle Series? Sophie has A LOT of character. Brittany Fichter has some. In her Autumn Fairy Trilogy a mother gives the ultimate sacrifice to save everyone and that happens to include her child. Robin McKinley’s “Spindles End” has Katriona a motherly figure (without giving away the story) and she has plenty of character throughout; even when she goes from a main character to a side character.
Something tells me you are not a mother.
Agreed!
Agree completely. You don't stop being a person with your own interests, ideals, and principles the minute you become a mom. You're still YOU. I'd like to see more mother characters who are devoted to their children but still find room in their minds and hearts to be interested in other things (e.g. music, art, politics) as well.
@@LisaMarieFord Because it's literally THE defining character trait of 99% of all the mother characters and hardly ever of father characters, which says a lot..
21:00 I think it’s a fantasy girls have of making the bad boy go good or the bad boy who is only good for her (aka the reverse of the good girl who goes bad for the guy). Like the girl is so “special” that the bad boy is willing to change or be nice to only her.
Well, one reason we so often see a male romantic lead that is a jerk paired with a woman who is submissive to him is because of the whole beauty and the beast psychology: he is a monster but not to me because I tamed him. It actually has very little to do with the appeal of the man himself and everything to do with how our taming of him validates something strong and feminine within ourselves. (Obviously this isn't ALL women, this relates specifically to the women who this trope appeals to.) Psychology aside, there can be a certain undeniable chemistry between two people who don't get along, as well as the idea that there will always be someone who makes you feel tongue-tied and the challenge to overcome that makes that particular dynamic more interesting than the ones that feel "easy". Now, these types of characters are really overused (and abused), but that doesn't mean it doesn't have some validity. I think the real issue here is poor execution (and generally being overdone).
I love these discussion videos 😊
24:37
I also have a problem with saying "female" for the exact same reason. Until watching this video, I haven't heard someone else voice the same concern.
More than an hour long video?! We have been blessed 😌. Thank you! ❤️
Girls can have wide variety. Like octavia/ clarke in the 100. Dr halsey in Halo. The doppelgängers in the vampire diaries. They can be strong and feminine. It doesnt have to be one or the other. Extremes are ridiculous.
Where can I find character archetypes usually associated with female characters?
“Also I want to take my socks off” took me out
I am at 20min in section...I believe it is the target audiance but also writers story itself or if autor is more skilled [ finds it easy] in writting "bad boy". Would writting the other "nice guy" make the book longer 🤔
Also "bad boy" has always a tension going on for a reader and some "action" feeling to it also some twist is more easy to happen than with that other grounded kind of a man [here is more effort to be put. Is it that difficult?]
Yes, maybe the combination of "fixing the man" + "different that other woman".
Can someone make book sugestions here? Thx.
Balsa from Moribito: Guardian of the Spirit
Everyone needs Balsa.
She is one of my all time favorite FMCs (only talking about the anime because I haven't read the book yet). I love the whole show in general. She gets hired to be a bodyguard for a prince and goes on the run from assassins cause he's possessed by a water demon. She's a strong warrior but she has zero maternal instincts cause she grew up without a mother on the run from assassins with a male body guard. She's good at spear wielding and martial arts but she has whole team working with her. She's got her healer friend (a guy who is super into her but RESPECTS HER CHOICES), a duo of street kids who work as runners, and an old shaman lady who is their sprit world expert. She regularly meets with them for help and to plan what to do. She earns respect from not just being strong with a spear but because of the strength of her character. She also screws up sometimes with decisions and she admits she's wrong and makes an effort to change. We see her challenged physically and we see her struggle with her conviction. She's also still single at the end of the show. Also she's older.
It's got a great sub, a great dub, the story's good, there's humor, the show has beautiful art.
Please anyone watch it. It needs more love.
One of the best female character in media is Farnese from the Berserk manga series. I hated her at first, but damn do I love her now.
The irony i find about the stereotypical strong female Characters IS that their Male counterpart isnt the Chosen one Hero or the Action Hero but the OP edgelord with a "DARK" past and He IS "mysterious" and He IS so "cool" and never struggles
I can relate to the topic of growing up in a very religious conservative area. There was a girl my senior year of high school who was engaged. He was a guy she started dating as a sophomore and he was a senior. (Edit: to note, I graduated in 2005)
when you said mistborn and love triangle I was like WHAAAAT?? I've read it twice and didn't recall at all. searched for it and then remembered what you were referring to haha
This video is awesome to listen to.
21:15 Can relate - why with the guy being a bad boy haha
25:52 Precisely... one box to another
30:05 Personality and growth
32:53 "Authors, please include more gross stuff about women"
37:27 Mentor-mentee relationships
41:21 An example
42:55 Female characters with positive relationships with parents
46:03 Female MCs who are allowed to be weak
52:20 Female MCs who listen to others/ask for help
Yup, I agree with you man - the differences between men and women are at the edges.... JP spells this out the best - we have in general so much in common, it's just beyond frustrating living through this dystopian nightmare atm. Being set against each other continuously is exhausting.
i think some people also forget people can put on airs and appear naive or weak while actually just manipulating people to achieve their ends. great example in a chinese drama, Ye Bingchang in til the end of the moon, she is stone cold, but plays the naive weak woman real well.
they can also be naive in one way, and strong in others, Jiang Yanli from MDZS, she literally raised her brothers while her parents were busy fighting with each other over rumors, but she's still very sheltered and protected from most of the worlds darkness, partially because she's sickly and thus spends most of her time at home.
personally i love snarky woman in books-- snarky men too XDDD i can't get enough.
on the note of SA, its important to remember that while its less spoken of, it happens to men as well-- and it's even harder for them to admit when they've experienced it because people down play their trauma or make fun of them for it; it's not cool, we need to recognize that its wrong regardless of the persons gender.
once upon a time in lingjian mountain, if you want a funny quirky female master, there is your show XDD
I just want characters who are interesting. I am tired of it mattering that they are women or men. I am tired of reading about how they are strong and amazing because they overcame their gender. I want to read stories where if I am reading in first person, I could potentially never know the person's gender because it doesn't matter. It isn't needed for them or the story to progress.
For all those looking for more amazing older women/mom characters in their fantasy: Partial Function by JCM Berne and Sistah Samurai by Tatiana Obey!
This was such a fun chat, amazing input from the viewers and loved all your reactions to them 🤩
I'd like to see less archer women and more with weapons like a longsword that would be much easier for them to athletically use (assuming human musculoskeletal average physiology)
You said "ingenue" very well!
I think we do see plenty of the “male expectation” writing you’re talking about not seeing, but it’s done in the opposite way from women.
Yes, we don’t see many male characters being made to show their emotional side, but nearly every male character exhibits traits that many men in real life don’t live up to. In my opinion, this is largely due to male culture not having a self-critical evaluation like women have had with feminism.
It’s deeply rooted in our culture that the actions of a ‘true man’ (aggression, taking action, fighting for what they believe in, etc) are the standard and ubiquitous drivers of plot in fiction, and it’s an expectation which in and of itself is stereotyping.
So for women it’s become “true women exhibit these masculine traits” whereas for men it’s just “true men exhibit these non-feminine traits”. Both aren’t great for human beings if they’re deriving their identity from what they’re reading.
In my fantasy world, there just isn't sexism or racism because I decided that was part of the fantasy. Definitely been interesting trying to write women in it and keep my biases in check. It'll probably never be finished or see the light of day, but I hope I do well enough that people enjoy it.
I would love to see more stories with women's strengths being shown rather than them being an awesome fighter and taking down men twice their size or skill.
Women handle pain way better then men, show that. Even though it is a bit of a societal cliche I do think women multi task better usually, show that. I have never seen a woman in a series deal with her period or at least have issues arrise due to that and have to deal with them, I have never seen a female character dealing with a child whilst also potentially running a business or dealing with political things in the kingdom etc.
I would also love to see more stories where the male main character or characters needs help from the female characters or learns from them, my wife has taught me so much about myself rather than things externally in the world, those things have helped me so much. Why is the master always a man who teaches the young hero, I feel like they may sometimes benefit from a female.
I found the section about females being written and the only time they can show they are strong is in response to sexism to be very interesting. I was thinking about it and I just thought its unfortunate but obviously some of these, likely male, authors don't have the skills needed to write females well. Then I thought well they just should be better, we need more female authors. Then I thought I have read many female authors where they write men very one dimensional too, especially the very smooth sexy slightly bad guy character, who is written to show his emotional side and that's a big break through.
I guess what I am trying to say is hopefully authors with time and more books they get better and more well rounded at all parts of writing and I think these things will always happen. Joe Abercrombie being a great example, the first trilogy the female characters that were actually there were very weak. The Age of Madness trilogy the female characters I thought were excellent and one of them was my favourite new character, only beaten by Glokta.
(Okay first off SO many things just made me crack up! Not in a, "I'm laughing at you way" but just some of these things are STRAIGHT UP HYSTERICAL.) Second, yes, to SO MUCH OF THIS. Where are the balanced characters!? People are so complex and that's what makes their lives, and reading about them so enjoyable. It would be nice to have gentle and feminine FMC's who know how to throw a punch and maybe even LOVES a non-conventional female sport (like boxing or maybe even hocky) because they genuinely find it interesting to watch, not because it has a bunch or burly men in it. Character's with seemingly contradicting interests and traits would be so lovely.
And yes, please, for once (maybe even forever?) let the hot guy get friend-zoned and treated like he's just another human being. (Maybe even let that be the reason the unreasonably attractive male character RESPECTS the FMC?)
Also a side note, I don't think I have ever read a series where the romance/love interest isn't even MENTIONED in the first book or so. It would be interesting to see a series that brings in the love interest and romance AFTER we have gotten to know the FMC and her life and the people in it a little bit.
I'm loving this video so far. I'm writing this while only having watched part of it, so if I make a point that someone else already made, my apologies. I wanted to try to explain the bad boy thing, but I do find that it's a little difficult to explain well, so I hope it makes sense.
The Bad Boy trope happens, at least in romances or in stories with romantic elements, because there are a lot of women who, within the context of FICTION, have fantasies about men (or partners, I guess) who are dangerous and a bit of an asshole, either at first, or only with others. It has to do with wanting a partner who, for example, doesn't care about social constraints, or maybe the law, who can get away with doing whatever they want while still being willing to protect the person they are with. It often also has to do with reading or watching a character who will say the harsh or taboo things that most people wish we could say, but are too afraid to.
The reason the bad boy can't just be a kind person, is because that isn't a bad boy., or at least that's not what people are looking for when they want to read about or watch one. There are exceptions, but asking for a bad boy who is kind and gentle or immediately supportive and loving to a partner is a bit like asking for a story about shifters without having any actual shifters. It's genre, or in this case, trope expectation. Part of the bad boy image is someone who is rough around the edges, and often, but not always damaged. Take that away, and for most who like the trope, they aren't actually getting what they want.
This is coming from someone who, again, in the context of FCTION, NOT REAL LIFE, loves this trope. If I read about a "bad boy" who is too nice, he doesn't feel like a bad boy. But the important thing is, writers should be writing characters with these things in mind, understanding why they're writing a character that way and who he or she is for.
My suggestion to Artemis is *_Just Stab Me Now_* by Jill Bearup.
oh my goodness, this looks delightful! Thank you!
Hour long video?! Yes please