Man I just seen your videos from skill builder and found this..I’m a carpenter in the United States and this dude is the real deal..real craftsman are rare these days,but this guy is one of the few
I didn't think anybody was still doing these old school simple effective techniques...trades are all head down rushing around..trying to earn and get the job done and on to the next....cheers robin
I’ve been a carpenter for 25 years. These days, it’s all speed. Rarely will you find a boss willing to pay the extra $2.00 to gain a higher level of professionalism. Most people are just hacking away at warp speed to make that dollar. It’s refreshing to see a carpenter with pride. Thank you
Great tip - I would always make sure my joists were crown up but I never thought to check the relative dimension to one another. Mind you, I often had milled my own timber so they were all the real dim e.g. 100x50 (4"x2"). Used to pee me off no end receiving an order that was not even close to the dims I wanted/asked for. Never understood why they just couldn't do it at the 'proper' dimensions.
While this is obviously a lot of extra effort and very time consuming it is a sound process. It will also help to take this step so that you can completely discard the few pieces that are actually unusable. A few bad boards always manage to sneak into the stack. They can (almost) always be used for blocking. This may seem like it's overkill but if you are building a deck with a large surface area, the finished product will be much more impressive. Thanks to the channel for demonstrating the power of craftsmanship!
I second a previous comment, it's all about get it done as quick as possible. I at least try to make sure any bowing is facing up but the guy I do most of my work for would be doing his nut if he caught me doing this. I had to stay away from a job during lock down and when I returned the governor had fitted the joists in a loft conversion, they were so bad you could feel the up and down as you walked across the floor. I swear I could write a book on having to deal with bodged work while I'm not there to oversee it. And you have to try to make it good without upsetting whoever cocked it up! A great method though, I'll try it out when no one's around!
There's just something about seeing a man that cares, and is diligent of his craft, you can really see it in your workmanship. You leave a timeless stamp behind for many generations to enjoy. You're inspiring alot of people Robin. Thanks for sharing your knowledge 👍🏻
God damn it Robin, someone just like me. When I was working in carpentry I always tried to strive for perfection, but others used to think I was being crazy. One of the reasons why I don’t do it anymore. Just wish I could have worked with you. You are the master. Keep up the amazing work!
@@richardthomas1566 how’s it a shit job? Shit jobs what you make it. I don’t want to sit hunched at a computer all day. Some people need to express practically. It depends on the mind. I’m an electrician by trade. But i do everything on my own house. Fuck about with cars, own a decent welder I just have to do something. I literally can’t sit at a computer without feeling dead inside by the end of the day.
Its the little bits of advice like this that make a difference. Im doing my own loft conversion, as a sparky im naive when it comes to wood. I've learnt the hard way in regards to regularity of timber. Some of them were over 5mm out!. Looks like il be getting the electric planer out as they're all installed now. Great vid.
Hi Robin - presently working under my house here in Oz - worked in the UK for years and except every country has it's own ways due to environmental and exsisting building constraints. On a personal preference I enjoy being able to have enough room under the house to inspect / run new services / make repairs and keep out pests, we also don't have snow here so air flowing under the house keeps homes cooler. Enjoy your show and picking up new tips - cheers Sean.
HI Sean, we have rules that limit the height of a building that is built under permitted development and this only lets us build to 4m high from ground, so for this we have to keep our margins tight!!! I like your suggestion and the practicality of that, do you get snakes!!!!!
Across the pond common practice with dimensional lumber is put in all of the joists crown edge up. If one or more joists are standing proud of the others use a power plane to bring them down to the others.
@@ThePhil543 If your clients are high end you will likely be using engineered lumber (I-joist, LVL) in place of dimensional lumber eliminating the need to make use of a power plane.
@@SandBoxJohn Not quite the same here in UK , All timber comes Reguarlised for size, The only difference is structural grading for strength. also timber merchants store it outside so your at the mercy of the weather. When you order they will deliver it as is , You can accept it or send it back, it all costs time and money
It won’t matter inside of 15 years anyway. Untreated lumber over the crawl space, sans a vapor/moisture barrier, won’t be much left if any heat is ever added to the building. I would suspect wood eating insects might have field day also being so close to grade. Maybe they still use Chlordane over there.
Hey Robin, I'm a US Architect and i have to say ... this is incredible because I'd wager that floor won't creak. Typical construction when they put the sub floor down they would use some liquid nails to adhere along with the physical nails - but those 1/16-1/4 variations between joists would create high and low spots meaning you'd be relying on the adhesive to take that up. Taking those variations out means the subfloor will be resting fully on every joist. Great!!
In some circumstances when a floor is "loaded" with furniture etc those imperfections can often disappear ,so an up bowed joist can be put second or third in from the wall depending where heavy furniture may land , this can have the effect of "leveling" the joists and floor , of course this will work if you know what furniture etc is gong where , I for example have heavy oak french furniture and when I replaced all the joists in my house I put the joist that were bowed up in position under the large buffets etc this levelled the floor perfectly ,on another occasion in another property for a client I laid the joists "dead" level ,only for them to come back to me to say "hey our floor sags " of course I went to inspect and found they had loaded the floor with furniture in such a way that the weight placed on a particular joist did indeed cause it to deform ,that same furniture had been loaded with easily half a ton of paper items and other belongings , so I pointed out that flooring has deflex and inflex etc and the load ratings , of course this did not wash and even though I showed them a better solution to their interior design choice , no they wanted what they wanted ,a level floor , and so I made one final attempt to help them understand the limitations of floor joists and floor covering by repositioning the furniture on the opposite wall ,and of course the same effect ,then I showed them that choosing the other walls which meant he load was spread across all the joists thus no "sagging" but again "no" that idea conflicted with their "feng shui feelings" and finally to accommodate as we Carpenters will often do I opened up the floor and place a trimmer joist to "up lift " the furniture , of course as you might imagine financial negotiations sagged as much as the joists ,and so I charged for the additional materials and labour but charged nothing for the afternoon and back breaking labour moving their furniture around etc etc , had I know what they had intended to place on the floor structure before hand I would have found that " joist with the hump and installed it or used a trimmer or maybe even a steel , the lifestyle of the couple in question really warranted a concrete floor but they lived on the second floor , thereafter the neighbours below contacted me to come and see what could be done for them as their ceiling covering was forever cracking , I installed a dropped ceiling with 300mm ecoustic insulation ,funny ,how level joists and poor interior design choices can be the cause for so much fun ! , bloody french !
Quality control standards related to lumber size specifications has fallen to the wayside nowadays. Go to Home Depot & try finding 20- 16 ft 2"× 10"'s that all measure the same width. Fact of the matter is that from one end to another & between those boards widths variances can range from 9 11/32" to 9 21/32"! In todays world you must adjust the elevation of each & every joist hanger accordingly relative to the variances that do exist among those boards allegedly "standardized" size range. Unfortunately assuring the joists are crowned similarly let alone sorting them accordingly is a lost cause if you place them in prehung joist hangers which have all been set in a standardized position. This video demonstrates a level of craftsmanship I admire & practice. It's a shame that a respect for such quality is being lost in so many areas of life today. You'd think those who sell lumber would assure it was milled with even half as much care as the craftsmen put into the quality of what is being built with that wood in this video.
Just throwing this out there. SOMETIMES, why you don't see large crews doing this stuff is because the B team comes in afterwards and does it for the framers before drywallers get there. Mind you, I'm speaking of walls and ceilings. Depending on the type of subfloor, the B team or flooring installers MAY sand down SOME bumps. B team is only a name and not indicative of skill or training. In the N.E. U.S. flooring joists are usually slammed in crown up and then planed on the high spots. Last few floors I built were with "enginerded" I joists and 3/4" OSB subflooring and they came out straight and true with minimal effort. Well worth the cost of the products.
Thanks Robin - definitely one of those things you wouldn't think of until it's too late or someone who knows loads tells you about it! Then it's "obvious" that you need to spend the short time doing it to do a proper job.
Always good to watch your videos. Like so many good ideas, you see it and think, "Oh yeah, that's so obvious..." Perfection is great - the "that'll do" attitude does my head in.
LOL ... I saw that attention to detail ... When the guy picked up 2 joists at once. First thing through my head was ... He's gonna botch it. Then Robin saw it and corrected it. Good to see OCD is much more common than I thought.
Do you generally space them at 400mm or 600mm Robin? Also do you stager your noggins or put in a straight line, do you install noggin every 4 feet or 8 feet? Cheers Robin
@@MrTrda I've seen two practices. First, roll what you have how it comes off the lumber unit and reject anything that's giving you grief. Second, check & lay all joists crown up, as they come off the unit, reject the ridiculous stuff, which is a considerably better practice. In my experience (California) its about 50-50 as a lot of guys don't have a clue and a bunch more don't care. Robin's method is superior, tho more time consuming. Two things I'd do if I was framing- construction adhesive on all joists/trusses & use screws for floor & roof decks w/a screw shank design to suck plywood tight to joists; that gives a lot more force on the joists as they dry to keep them from going wild. I met one contractor years ago that ordered kiln dried (S4S) studs for a really tall wall on a commercial bldg; he said one call back on that type of wall would pay for 10 projects differential in material cost, and I believe that. Personally I'm a fan of I-joists for superiority in deflection over solid sawn, and utter uniformity in all dimensions (also easier for wiring & plumbing fwiw)
@@MrTrda I've seen the best quality builders putting a dab of adhesive in the joist hanger saddle; it may not adhere (oil & dirt on JH metal surface) but it will make a good contact patch & likely obviate squeaks
this is very old school the sort of thing a real craftsman does or did back int he day and thank fully robin is not only carrying it on and forward but teaching others these days (as i have seen ) too many new builds involve poorly trained or uninterested "carpenters" who just throw the joists in as they come the simple act of checking the crown can make one heel of a difference , sadly not even that most of the time and new builds are plagued by squeaky uneven floors
I’m not certain if the chippies on a site would be allowed the luxury of time to check wood like this. Get the impression everyone on site is under time pressure. Get it done git it sold get the money in. I could be wrong.
Check with you supplier first! We usually order extra lumber and several of the yards we work with pick up the left overs; they factor this in and expect it, especially when dealing with lumber over 16 feet. Only once did I have a lumber yard want to charge me for picking up the extras. Also, treat the yard guys well and they will take care of you. The yard guys are the people that set the lumber yards over and above the big box stores, in my opinion.
Looks good is good but where I work my prices are slashed to the bone to even get the job. Robin has his reputation and his high end clients. Mine are all tight wads that wouldn't pay me for this unfortunately.
doc hall good luck to you brother. Ever thought about employing the Mexicans on the grounds they work to your standards for a bit more than they would otherwise earn? If you had enough guys on the right jobs you can really take your time with your work and make things as good as you dream.
In theory great idea, but come back the following day if its a hot day following a wet one, and they will all be different again....oh the beauty of living products 😁
@@safcforme3475 Doesn't have to be heat. We cover our lumber to protect it from the sun, not so much rain or snow; it will cause uneven drying and warping. Also, keep in mind that it can take a month or more of framing before a roof or wall sheathing goes on. In that time, rain and sunshine can cause some serious warping. I've seen several decks were 4x6 PT posts are warping; we switched from 4x4 for this reason and it seems like we'll need to go to a 6x6 to prevent it.
That's why we use engineered Steico reclaimed timber beams. Totally reliable dimensions and lines, made from timber waste yet stronger, lighter and more stable than sawn joists.
Redicoulis those joist might be that way today but not tomorrow bridging and 1-1/4 Decking will straighten all that up . If you really want them even you put a strong back running down the middle under the joist and shim any low ones if the board with varies .
Robin could you please make a video on how to balance quality/quantity of work, I feel that aiming for perfection can take too long and consequently lose money whilst on price work etc. How do you develop speed without sacrificing quality ?.
What hangars are you using Robin? It looked like you block planed a face on one of the joists to get it to fit. The finish dimension of the regularised timber usually leaves the joist fitting sloppily in a 50mm hangar. I've resorted to adding plywood packers before to take up the slack. Would be great to find a hangar that doesn't need any more faff, over what already needs dealing with like mismatched "regularised" dimensions. Great vid. Love watching your work 👍
Hi Ryan Go for 47mm Hangers for single joists 94mm for doubles and they do a 140 for triples this applies to timber to timber (jiffy) and timber to masonry hangers, Simpson Strongtie do a great range and most good timber merchants carry these sizes
hello Robin, another great video as always.Ive had a look through all of your videos and can't find any info on the floor construction.Would you be so kind and confirm if you've made the garden room as a suspended wood floor over a concrete perimeter?Im just about to start building a garden workshop and have poor access and quite like the idea of a suspended floor.If so, are they treated perimeter beams? how are they suspended?Look forward to any reply
Hi Chris, we do use various types of engineered lumber, from joists, beams and materials for joinery, I was like you initially but now I dont think twice about using this material now, thanks for the comment
Hi Robin, your videos are excellent. I am wondering where you get your timber from. TP have just hiked their timber up by over 25% so I really need a good supplier I can rely on being fair with good quality. I would greatly appreciate some help from a true expert.
If the soil freezes and expands (especially clay soils) it will lift the building - that's why you leave a gap beneath the building when you build on piles/piers
Robin, being a lover of quality tools such as mafell and festool that you are. Pop over the tf tools and order yourself a diamondback tool belt and enjoy.
mark marlow most carcassing is treated now as building control insists on it so not worth skimping. The colour varies a lot from stockists, we get treated that looks almost clear. Can’t imagine this fella would save a couple of quid and have untreated for an outside floor
Out of interest, when you say 'dead flat' Robin, what do you mean? What sort of tolerance is that for you? 0.5mm? 1mm? I ask as it seems to be quite relative - certainly in 1st / 2nd fix carpentry 'flat' and 'square' seem to have wild variations...
well we like to minimise the tolerance so we shuffle to get the pack of joists smooth but we also use a dry graded treated timber so all the movement has happened before we fit, we would look for a tolerance of about plus or minus 3mm over a floor like this
So, the guy in the light blue needs to walk up doing everything super slow, so when you speed it up, he looks like he's moving normally while the other two are zipping. Then switch it off in the middle (take turns moving slow). I'm going to subscribe now just hoping to see it happen.
Thanks for this tip! I have never built on those giant ground screws before so is it just a case of adding that thick timber base plate around the perimeter? Also noticed you have spread out type one around the area.. did you put a weed membrane underneath? Thanks for taking the time to make the videos as well as work on the tools!
The base is 200mm of road planings (similar to type 1) this is on a membrane also, we use a large engineered timber ring beam, and fit a recycled plastic plywood with a vent from the Beam to the ground to stop rodents etc, hope that helps mate
The time taken to do that compared to cutting blocks and having them installed at the plywood joint would be so much more efficient let alone stronger to boot....
From someone who worked in a planing mill for 10 years and as a carpenter for 12 years it sounds good, then I see you pre nailed all of the hangers which would work in theory, but I know that ends of dimension lumber can have skip on the sides making them narrower than advertised. Therefore, the tops of your joists are not sitting flush to the plate every time. So, once again, not as OCD as you think🤔
I noted that while you organized your joists crown up, your man carrying them to you flipped every one over, making them crown down and creating a dip in your overall floor. ???
Or don't put a fixing up the bottom of the hanger in this situation, just half tack them on to the trims with clouts (hangers set 5mm high) then tap them down flush, fix into trims and side of joists and any discrepancy will be lost underneath.
I would have given myself more of a space between the oversite and the bottom of the joists. They look like they are nearly touching. Also, I see more floor undulations caused by people putting joist hangers on badly.
@@chrisford8403 I mean, if the timber sticks over or under the rim, you tack it at the right height and mount the hangers afterwards. Especially in this build, it wouldn't matter if joist sticks below the rim.
@@Davey768 I misunderstood where you were going in your initial post. The way you describe is how I hang joists. Only time you run into an issue is with ceilings doing it that way, but then you just shim the strapping or plane a little bit. Definitely do not want a joist over the rim joist. 1/8th of an inch is nothing to worry about until stacking of tolerances kicks-in and you realize there's a noticeable bow in your roof rafters, LOL! I never worked with them but there are hangers that will not allow you that adjustment, I think they are for concrete walls with a wood rim. In that scenario you'd chisel out some of the joist. Watching the video I had bows and crowns on my mind more than the heights of each joist. Usually, there close enough for kiln dried; where I'm at it's the PT that can be off by a 1/4" or more in heights.
Cups and crowns are more a joinery thing. But using the bow up (crown) will flatten out more once a load is on it. where as bow down (Cup) will just get worse with load on it (cup and crown isn't the correct term for londitudinal bends mind). But in joinery, I am presuming your from over the pond. In the UK it would be smiles and frowns (bark side and wood side) alternating, when you make, say, a solid tabletop out of individual boards, So humidity changes even out the expansion, so it doesn't go wildly cupped or crowned, it makes it wiggle, so overal remains flat.
Cupping and crowning refers to the shape when laid flat across its width rather than vertical as here. Inevitable really, given flat sawn timber comes from round trees!
Man I just seen your videos from skill builder and found this..I’m a carpenter in the United States and this dude is the real deal..real craftsman are rare these days,but this guy is one of the few
I didn't think anybody was still doing these old school simple effective techniques...trades are all head down rushing around..trying to earn and get the job done and on to the next....cheers robin
Yes indeed Liam,----- Crash /bang /wallop. ----lets get out of here to the next job.
I still do old school, hope my younger apprentice will carry it on
True professionalism has become a rare commodity. Thanks for demonstrating that attention to detail is a skill that matters.
I’ve been a carpenter for 25 years.
These days, it’s all speed. Rarely will you find a boss willing to pay the extra $2.00 to gain a higher level of professionalism.
Most people are just hacking away at warp speed to make that dollar.
It’s refreshing to see a carpenter with pride.
Thank you
This is exactly what I tell my boss when he says I'm slacking ;)
Great tip - I would always make sure my joists were crown up but I never thought to check the relative dimension to one another. Mind you, I often had milled my own timber so they were all the real dim e.g. 100x50 (4"x2"). Used to pee me off no end receiving an order that was not even close to the dims I wanted/asked for. Never understood why they just couldn't do it at the 'proper' dimensions.
While this is obviously a lot of extra effort and very time consuming it is a sound process. It will also help to take this step so that you can completely discard the few pieces that are actually unusable. A few bad boards always manage to sneak into the stack. They can (almost) always be used for blocking.
This may seem like it's overkill but if you are building a deck with a large surface area, the finished product will be much more impressive.
Thanks to the channel for demonstrating the power of craftsmanship!
Mrs B “ what you watching” me “ grown men shuffling timbers”..... and loving every minute of it 😀
Love that!
Wicked
I second a previous comment, it's all about get it done as quick as possible. I at least try to make sure any bowing is facing up but the guy I do most of my work for would be doing his nut if he caught me doing this.
I had to stay away from a job during lock down and when I returned the governor had fitted the joists in a loft conversion, they were so bad you could feel the up and down as you walked across the floor. I swear I could write a book on having to deal with bodged work while I'm not there to oversee it. And you have to try to make it good without upsetting whoever cocked it up!
A great method though, I'll try it out when no one's around!
There's just something about seeing a man that cares, and is diligent of his craft, you can really see it in your workmanship. You leave a timeless stamp behind for many generations to enjoy. You're inspiring alot of people Robin. Thanks for sharing your knowledge 👍🏻
Thank you, I appreciate your really kind comment and it encourages to do these videos, thanks again Tanja
God damn it Robin, someone just like me. When I was working in carpentry I always tried to strive for perfection, but others used to think I was being crazy. One of the reasons why I don’t do it anymore.
Just wish I could have worked with you. You are the master. Keep up the amazing work!
Andrew Smith And the fact it’s a shit job with no benefits.
@@richardthomas1566 how’s it a shit job? Shit jobs what you make it. I don’t want to sit hunched at a computer all day. Some people need to express practically. It depends on the mind. I’m an electrician by trade. But i do everything on my own house. Fuck about with cars, own a decent welder I just have to do something. I literally can’t sit at a computer without feeling dead inside by the end of the day.
Its the little bits of advice like this that make a difference. Im doing my own loft conversion, as a sparky im naive when it comes to wood. I've learnt the hard way in regards to regularity of timber. Some of them were over 5mm out!. Looks like il be getting the electric planer out as they're all installed now. Great vid.
Hi Robin - presently working under my house here in Oz - worked in the UK for years and except every country has it's own ways due to environmental and exsisting building constraints.
On a personal preference I enjoy being able to have enough room under the house to inspect / run new services / make repairs and keep out pests, we also don't have snow here so air flowing under the house keeps homes cooler.
Enjoy your show and picking up new tips - cheers Sean.
HI Sean, we have rules that limit the height of a building that is built under permitted development and this only lets us build to 4m high from ground, so for this we have to keep our margins tight!!! I like your suggestion and the practicality of that, do you get snakes!!!!!
Great - thanks for the lesson. Wish I'd seen this three weeks ago as I was installing joists for the first time. No substitution for experiance!
Brilliant tip. Any time you lose in shuffling the joists can be made up by fast-forwarding the rest of the job!
Across the pond common practice with dimensional lumber is put in all of the joists crown edge up. If one or more joists are standing proud of the others use a power plane to bring them down to the others.
Same here, The problem as always is money, unless you have high end clients you wont
get paid for this, In fact it will cost you money
@@ThePhil543 If your clients are high end you will likely be using engineered lumber (I-joist, LVL) in place of dimensional lumber eliminating the need to make use of a power plane.
@@SandBoxJohn Not quite the same here in UK , All timber comes Reguarlised for size, The only difference is structural grading for strength. also timber merchants
store it outside so your at the mercy of the
weather. When you order they will deliver it
as is , You can accept it or send it back, it all costs time and money
It won’t matter inside of 15 years anyway. Untreated lumber over the crawl space, sans a vapor/moisture barrier, won’t be much left if any heat is ever added to the building. I would suspect wood eating insects might have field day also being so close to grade. Maybe they still use Chlordane over there.
Hey Robin, I'm a US Architect and i have to say ... this is incredible because I'd wager that floor won't creak. Typical construction when they put the sub floor down they would use some liquid nails to adhere along with the physical nails - but those 1/16-1/4 variations between joists would create high and low spots meaning you'd be relying on the adhesive to take that up. Taking those variations out means the subfloor will be resting fully on every joist. Great!!
In some circumstances when a floor is "loaded" with furniture etc those imperfections can often disappear ,so an up bowed joist can be put second or third in from the wall depending where heavy furniture may land , this can have the effect of "leveling" the joists and floor , of course this will work if you know what furniture etc is gong where , I for example have heavy oak french furniture and when I replaced all the joists in my house I put the joist that were bowed up in position under the large buffets etc this levelled the floor perfectly ,on another occasion in another property for a client I laid the joists "dead" level ,only for them to come back to me to say "hey our floor sags " of course I went to inspect and found they had loaded the floor with furniture in such a way that the weight placed on a particular joist did indeed cause it to deform ,that same furniture had been loaded with easily half a ton of paper items and other belongings , so I pointed out that flooring has deflex and inflex etc and the load ratings , of course this did not wash and even though I showed them a better solution to their interior design choice , no they wanted what they wanted ,a level floor , and so I made one final attempt to help them understand the limitations of floor joists and floor covering by repositioning the furniture on the opposite wall ,and of course the same effect ,then I showed them that choosing the other walls which meant he load was spread across all the joists thus no "sagging" but again "no" that idea conflicted with their "feng shui feelings" and finally to accommodate as we Carpenters will often do I opened up the floor and place a trimmer joist to "up lift " the furniture , of course as you might imagine financial negotiations sagged as much as the joists ,and so I charged for the additional materials and labour but charged nothing for the afternoon and back breaking labour moving their furniture around etc etc , had I know what they had intended to place on the floor structure before hand I would have found that " joist with the hump and installed it or used a trimmer or maybe even a steel , the lifestyle of the couple in question really warranted a concrete floor but they lived on the second floor , thereafter the neighbours below contacted me to come and see what could be done for them as their ceiling covering was forever cracking , I installed a dropped ceiling with 300mm ecoustic insulation ,funny ,how level joists and poor interior design choices can be the cause for so much fun ! , bloody french !
Quality control standards related to lumber size specifications has fallen to the wayside nowadays. Go to Home Depot & try finding 20- 16 ft 2"× 10"'s that all measure the same width. Fact of the matter is that from one end to another & between those boards widths variances can range from 9 11/32" to 9 21/32"! In todays world you must adjust the elevation of each & every joist hanger accordingly relative to the variances that do exist among those boards allegedly "standardized" size range.
Unfortunately assuring the joists are crowned similarly let alone sorting them accordingly is a lost cause if you place them in prehung joist hangers which have all been set in a standardized position.
This video demonstrates a level of craftsmanship I admire & practice. It's a shame that a respect for such quality is being lost in so many areas of life today. You'd think those who sell lumber would assure it was milled with even half as much care as the craftsmen put into the quality of what is being built with that wood in this video.
I've been lucky enough to work with some every good carpenters and I have learnt a lot from them. This is new to me, great tip, thanks. :)
Just throwing this out there. SOMETIMES, why you don't see large crews doing this stuff is because the B team comes in afterwards and does it for the framers before drywallers get there. Mind you, I'm speaking of walls and ceilings. Depending on the type of subfloor, the B team or flooring installers MAY sand down SOME bumps. B team is only a name and not indicative of skill or training. In the N.E. U.S. flooring joists are usually slammed in crown up and then planed on the high spots. Last few floors I built were with "enginerded" I joists and 3/4" OSB subflooring and they came out straight and true with minimal effort. Well worth the cost of the products.
Thanks Robin - definitely one of those things you wouldn't think of until it's too late or someone who knows loads tells you about it! Then it's "obvious" that you need to spend the short time doing it to do a proper job.
gotta comment again how great you are making this channel
I appreciate that!
Always good to watch your videos. Like so many good ideas, you see it and think, "Oh yeah, that's so obvious..." Perfection is great - the "that'll do" attitude does my head in.
LOL ... I saw that attention to detail ... When the guy picked up 2 joists at once. First thing through my head was ... He's gonna botch it. Then Robin saw it and corrected it. Good to see OCD is much more common than I thought.
When ya going to a pub and answering questions ..... like you and Roger used to .... anyways watching this again over lunch
Great video, thank you Robin. This stuff is simply invaluable for DIYer's like myself.
Do you generally space them at 400mm or 600mm Robin? Also do you stager your noggins or put in a straight line, do you install noggin every 4 feet or 8 feet? Cheers Robin
In 40 years of engineering wood framed buildings I've never seen sorting by "crown", great idea for quality
Thanks Mike
Really??? I was taught to crown my studs first day on the job. It’s a very common practice. Like brushing your teeth in the morning common.
@@MrTrda I've seen two practices. First, roll what you have how it comes off the lumber unit and reject anything that's giving you grief. Second, check & lay all joists crown up, as they come off the unit, reject the ridiculous stuff, which is a considerably better practice. In my experience (California) its about 50-50 as a lot of guys don't have a clue and a bunch more don't care. Robin's method is superior, tho more time consuming. Two things I'd do if I was framing- construction adhesive on all joists/trusses & use screws for floor & roof decks w/a screw shank design to suck plywood tight to joists; that gives a lot more force on the joists as they dry to keep them from going wild. I met one contractor years ago that ordered kiln dried (S4S) studs for a really tall wall on a commercial bldg; he said one call back on that type of wall would pay for 10 projects differential in material cost, and I believe that. Personally I'm a fan of I-joists for superiority in deflection over solid sawn, and utter uniformity in all dimensions (also easier for wiring & plumbing fwiw)
EngineerMike F - agreed with the adhesive - I’m even putting adhesive on my studs/rafters before I drywall - big difference
@@MrTrda I've seen the best quality builders putting a dab of adhesive in the joist hanger saddle; it may not adhere (oil & dirt on JH metal surface) but it will make a good contact patch & likely obviate squeaks
Thanks Robin. I recently used this technique to order my studs for a wall also
this is very old school the sort of thing a real craftsman does or did back int he day and thank fully robin is not only carrying it on and forward but teaching others
these days (as i have seen ) too many new builds involve poorly trained or uninterested "carpenters" who just throw the joists in as they come
the simple act of checking the crown can make one heel of a difference , sadly not even that most of the time and new builds are plagued by squeaky uneven floors
I’m not certain if the chippies on a site would be allowed the luxury of time to check wood like this. Get the impression everyone on site is under time pressure. Get it done git it sold get the money in. I could be wrong.
Another method is ideally have extra joists so you can avoid the rough joists. Just cut them up and use for noggins or blocking.
Great point!, always order a few more this is a really good suggestion nice one mate
Check with you supplier first! We usually order extra lumber and several of the yards we work with pick up the left overs; they factor this in and expect it, especially when dealing with lumber over 16 feet. Only once did I have a lumber yard want to charge me for picking up the extras. Also, treat the yard guys well and they will take care of you. The yard guys are the people that set the lumber yards over and above the big box stores, in my opinion.
Hi robin are we going to see more detail on how you ventilated these joists?
Good video Robin, all about the prep work as with most things, great to see you taking the time to do this ! 👍
I always feel better from having watched your videos, Robin. Therapy.
Your attention to detail I find amazing ❤️
Looks good is good but where I work my prices are slashed to the bone to even get the job. Robin has his reputation and his high end clients. Mine are all tight wads that wouldn't pay me for this unfortunately.
That is a shame Dave.
Put your prices up. If you want flush clients then charge flush prices. It won’t happen instantly but do it over time.
doc hall good luck to you brother. Ever thought about employing the Mexicans on the grounds they work to your standards for a bit more than they would otherwise earn? If you had enough guys on the right jobs you can really take your time with your work and make things as good as you dream.
Hi Robin.
I have a question.
I have to fit a flitch beam. Will a normal hanger like what your using ok . Just concerned on weight
I would use a heavy duty hanger be sure it is suitable for the job, check with the engineer who specified the flitch beam!!
Another excellent carpentry tuition lesson once again. Very much appreciated as usual.
In theory great idea, but come back the following day if its a hot day following a wet one, and they will all be different again....oh the beauty of living products 😁
@@safcforme3475 Doesn't have to be heat. We cover our lumber to protect it from the sun, not so much rain or snow; it will cause uneven drying and warping. Also, keep in mind that it can take a month or more of framing before a roof or wall sheathing goes on. In that time, rain and sunshine can cause some serious warping. I've seen several decks were 4x6 PT posts are warping; we switched from 4x4 for this reason and it seems like we'll need to go to a 6x6 to prevent it.
Paul Radwell Exactly right the location of knots in board is the #1 cause of crowns , the wood shrinks and expands at a different rate than knot.
@@chrisford8403 I build luxury decks we use 6x6 posts and they will still twist and warp just not nearly as bad
@@jeremyparks9648 I guess it's CMU's next! LOL!
Robin, I never realized the difference in the height of lumber. Thanks for the information.😊👀
Happy to help
Obviously robin doesn’t buy his joists at travis Perkins like my boss does
Travis Perkins: top supplier if you ever want to build a round house 😂
@@tonyalways7174 don't agree! I got 2 straight 4x2's out of a full pack last week!
@@mikejames4271 I’d keep them and frame them because straight timber from TP is a collector’s item 🤣
That’s a pretty good idea robin.. 😊👍🇺🇸 love the channel 👍
That's why we use engineered Steico reclaimed timber beams. Totally reliable dimensions and lines, made from timber waste yet stronger, lighter and more stable than sawn joists.
Is this US or Uk??
Redicoulis those joist might be that way today but not tomorrow bridging and 1-1/4 Decking will straighten all that up . If you really want them even you put a strong back running down the middle under the joist and shim any low ones if the board with varies .
You guys are working that dude that is packing those joist to death.
Nice work,my friends.Cheers!
Super video as always Robin. Thanks again for sharing your advice!
My pleasure!
Why don't you loose a short in the middle of the triples 47mm bridge is fine ?
Robin could you please make a video on how to balance quality/quantity of work, I feel that aiming for perfection can take too long and consequently lose money whilst on price work etc. How do you develop speed without sacrificing quality ?.
Hi Charlie, I will look at doing something on this as it is a really good topic mate, all the best Robin
Robin Clevett cheers mate really admire your work!
What hangars are you using Robin? It looked like you block planed a face on one of the joists to get it to fit. The finish dimension of the regularised timber usually leaves the joist fitting sloppily in a 50mm hangar. I've resorted to adding plywood packers before to take up the slack. Would be great to find a hangar that doesn't need any more faff, over what already needs dealing with like mismatched "regularised" dimensions. Great vid. Love watching your work 👍
Hi Ryan
Go for 47mm Hangers for single joists 94mm for doubles and they do a 140 for triples this applies to timber to timber (jiffy) and timber to masonry hangers, Simpson Strongtie do a great range and most good timber merchants carry these sizes
hello Robin, another great video as always.Ive had a look through all of your videos and can't find any info on the floor construction.Would you be so kind and confirm if you've made the garden room as a suspended wood floor over a concrete perimeter?Im just about to start building a garden workshop and have poor access and quite like the idea of a suspended floor.If so, are they treated perimeter beams? how are they suspended?Look forward to any reply
I used Ground screws as my foundation, there is a video here on my channel of this job, let me know if you cannot find it!! all the best Robin
@@ukconstruction Cheers Robin. For some reason I thought that was for the main house only. My mistake. Thanks once again
I use a hand planer level the rack. I think it's faster and more accurate
Cracking job Robin lots of great advice great video 👍 all the best Tony 👍
Thanks Tony, have a good week mate
Robin Clevett you to bud 👍
Robin, is engineered lumber promently used in England? I use it here after fighting it for years. Love some TJIs
Hi Chris, we do use various types of engineered lumber, from joists, beams and materials for joinery, I was like you initially but now I dont think twice about using this material now, thanks for the comment
love all these tips of the trade Robin!
Hi Robin, your videos are excellent. I am wondering where you get your timber from. TP have just hiked their timber up by over 25% so I really need a good supplier I can rely on being fair with good quality. I would greatly appreciate some help from a true expert.
What grade of wood is used for the joist and side's.
Wow I wonder how many new builds shuffle the joists
If the soil freezes and expands (especially clay soils) it will lift the building - that's why you leave a gap beneath the building when you build on piles/piers
Really great tips Robin and the 6 P's coming into play again.
You just know it's going to be quality RC 👍👍👍👍
That's pretty tedious, but I bet it makes a big difference. I'm sure your tile guy loves you!
I really learn alot from him. Top notch!!
Great video Robin
more videos like this .... rewatching again . "As a perfectionist" - Robin Clevett
Robin, being a lover of quality tools such as mafell and festool that you are. Pop over the tf tools and order yourself a diamondback tool belt and enjoy.
I do fancy a new tool belt, and I am often asked about the best type etc, maybe I will go and take a look at some, thanks for the comment
What size are those timbers around the perimeter ??
Great job Robin. Thank you.
Thanks for watching!
Would the joints be better if they were treated ? Or is there some sort of membrane going in ?
joists look treated to me, compare them with the main beams, they look untreated
coops66 treated timbers are green or brown that’s if there done from the stockist
mark marlow most carcassing is treated now as building control insists on it so not worth skimping. The colour varies a lot from stockists, we get treated that looks almost clear. Can’t imagine this fella would save a couple of quid and have untreated for an outside floor
Out of interest, when you say 'dead flat' Robin, what do you mean? What sort of tolerance is that for you? 0.5mm? 1mm? I ask as it seems to be quite relative - certainly in 1st / 2nd fix carpentry 'flat' and 'square' seem to have wild variations...
well we like to minimise the tolerance so we shuffle to get the pack of joists smooth but we also use a dry graded treated timber so all the movement has happened before we fit, we would look for a tolerance of about plus or minus 3mm over a floor like this
So, the guy in the light blue needs to walk up doing everything super slow, so when you speed it up, he looks like he's moving normally while the other two are zipping. Then switch it off in the middle (take turns moving slow).
I'm going to subscribe now just hoping to see it happen.
Thanks for this tip!
I have never built on those giant ground screws before so is it just a case of adding that thick timber base plate around the perimeter?
Also noticed you have spread out type one around the area.. did you put a weed membrane underneath?
Thanks for taking the time to make the videos as well as work on the tools!
The base is 200mm of road planings (similar to type 1) this is on a membrane also, we use a large engineered timber ring beam, and fit a recycled plastic plywood with a vent from the Beam to the ground to stop rodents etc, hope that helps mate
Love the Schmedium clothes!
The time taken to do that compared to cutting blocks and having them installed at the plywood joint would be so much more efficient let alone stronger to boot....
Robin, excelent video! Direct like 👍 from România 😉 🍷
Great advice! Looking forward to see things develop. Cheers.
Excellent video mate 👍
Did you introduce yourself as 'Robin Clever' at that start of the video? If you didn't, you should. Great technique, the sorting.
Creator on the rise!! You are trending congratulations!!
From someone who worked in a planing mill for 10 years and as a carpenter for 12 years it sounds good, then I see you pre nailed all of the hangers which would work in theory, but I know that ends of dimension lumber can have skip on the sides making them narrower
than advertised. Therefore, the tops of your joists are not sitting flush to the plate every time. So, once again, not as OCD as you think🤔
I guess you don't have LVLs in the U.K.?
You are right ijoists not lvls
I'm sorry if this is a silly question, but why not just run them all through a planer or something to get them perfectly flat?
That would take hours, this took minutes.
What do you do with the odd ones that bow? plane flat?
If they are too bad we send them back!!!! generally my suppliers know what I want and they select my orders so they have no returns!!!
@@ukconstruction Aah the joys of living in the 1st world :) ps did you buy a vernier caliper yet?
Thanks Robin! 👍🏻
I noted that while you organized your joists crown up, your man carrying them to you flipped every one over, making them crown down and creating a dip in your overall floor. ???
Ver useful video thanks for sharing.
Great tip
Lol... Glad I stumbled across this. Brilliant top man...👍🏻👌🏻
did I miss a video, where was part two of the decking vid.... or at least the finished vid??
Hi, there is a part 2, part 3 coming soon, check in my list of videos
@@ukconstruction thanks Robin
Or don't put a fixing up the bottom of the hanger in this situation, just half tack them on to the trims with clouts (hangers set 5mm high) then tap them down flush, fix into trims and side of joists and any discrepancy will be lost underneath.
I would have given myself more of a space between the oversite and the bottom of the joists. They look like they are nearly touching. Also, I see more floor undulations caused by people putting joist hangers on badly.
I nail them on lightly first to my marks then add the hangers.
Geralt of Rivia I generally do the same.
When you preinstall the hangers, at least the bottoms of the joists will be level.
100% as always, the tips and tricks are priceless keep it up
👌👍👏👏👏 superb as usual. Thank you
I'm literally the guy in the Gray shirt that gets paid the least and does the most physical work.
And that's how to do it properly for all the cowboys out there 😎😁
You have joist hangers, why not just adjust the height with them?
@@chrisford8403 I mean, if the timber sticks over or under the rim, you tack it at the right height and mount the hangers afterwards. Especially in this build, it wouldn't matter if joist sticks below the rim.
@@Davey768 I misunderstood where you were going in your initial post. The way you describe is how I hang joists. Only time you run into an issue is with ceilings doing it that way, but then you just shim the strapping or plane a little bit. Definitely do not want a joist over the rim joist. 1/8th of an inch is nothing to worry about until stacking of tolerances kicks-in and you realize there's a noticeable bow in your roof rafters, LOL! I never worked with them but there are hangers that will not allow you that adjustment, I think they are for concrete walls with a wood rim. In that scenario you'd chisel out some of the joist. Watching the video I had bows and crowns on my mind more than the heights of each joist. Usually, there close enough for kiln dried; where I'm at it's the PT that can be off by a 1/4" or more in heights.
Is this what they refer to as "cups and crowns?" I could watch your videos all day Robin! Absolutely love it. 👍
Cups and crowns are more a joinery thing. But using the bow up (crown) will flatten out more once a load is on it. where as bow down (Cup) will just get worse with load on it (cup and crown isn't the correct term for londitudinal bends mind). But in joinery, I am presuming your from over the pond. In the UK it would be smiles and frowns (bark side and wood side) alternating, when you make, say, a solid tabletop out of individual boards, So humidity changes even out the expansion, so it doesn't go wildly cupped or crowned, it makes it wiggle, so overal remains flat.
Cupping and crowning refers to the shape when laid flat across its width rather than vertical as here.
Inevitable really, given flat sawn timber comes from round trees!
It depends what part of the world your from in the UK and Ireland its commonly known as checking the camber hope this helps 🔨
nice tip.
Nice channel. Subscribed. 👍🏻