Jeff - as a Papist commenter here - please accept my condolences and know of my prayers for you, your family, and your mother and that she may be with Him in Paradise today . Love and peace be with you. Eternal rest grant unto her O Lord. And let perpetual light shine upon her. May the soul of the faithful departed through the mercy of God rest in peace. Amen.
Brother Jeff is so pro life just like the Catholic Church is too and indeed it’s the largest pro life organization in the world and the first organizers of the pro life movement were Catholics so we should all unite on our common Trinitarian faith and pro life ethics
Jeff, as a former temple endowed devout Mormon for 34 yrs., I taught many classes that quote prophets and general authorities teaching every word Jeff said the LDS church teaches. Jeff is 💯 correct in his mormon doctrine and the generation coming forth today twist the basic core doctrines to sound more mainstream. I saw it coming when the Im A Mormon campaign started. Those of us who went through the temple before covenants were changed to sound less crazy remember exactly what was said and done. It haunts me to this day. LDS doctrine is far far from biblical. Praise God my eyes were opened. Keep teaching truth Jeff Durban.
This was such an encouragement to read! My heart grieves for those still stuck in the Mormon religion but it’s so wonderful to hear that the Lord plucked you out of that darkness
as someone who is trying to open eyes to a friend mormon, i agree with you. he is in his early 20s and what he says the church preaches is not the same as what ive researched it preaches, so i was wondering if he was being dishonest or if they were lying to him when they were teaching him. either way, what he believes in is not biblical and we disagree on so many things, especially because i am someone who grew up as an orthodox christian and later on became atheist only to find God 4 years ago and learn that God isnt church and mens traditions and now i identify as non denom.My mormon friend thinks me not having a physical church means i am not Christian but even if i belonged to a church, he would say the same because i wasnt a mormon lol
I wish I could help. @@isidoravojinovic7362my own mother fell into this lie and despite my attempts to explain to her, unless something changed in her last days, died believing in Joseph Smith's version of Christianity. I pray that God changed her heart and leave that to His wisdom. Pray about it, stay respectful and caring, and speak the truth of God's word. Only He can change hearts.
Jacob wasn’t using Heiser’s words to say Heiser believes in Mormon theology. He was using his words to show one possible interpretation of the Isaiah verses brought up is in reference to incomparability. Heiser was probably using the incompatibility to prop up his Trinitarian view, but the same argument can be applied to Mormon view that he was talking about the incompatibility of God the Father to any of the idolatrous gods of the people in Isaiah’s time.
@ I agree. And I’m an ex Mormon. I used to be a strict Protestant when coming out of the LDS church and I thought that apologia did a good job. But now that I have done a little more research and coming to the orthodox faith. I can see why when people make deconstruction videos and take part in deconstructionism it’s always Mormons, evangelicals, JWs. Never apostolic christians. Apologia is full of red herrings and complete straw man. They are the same way towards apostolic Christianity. They’re mad that Jacob Hansen lives rent free in their heads. He smoked members of their church in the 2 on 2 debates with Catholic apologetics. Although I think Jacob Hansen has his theology twisted, I think he’s probably a real good dude.
@@dereksyota that is super interesting. Thanks for not being intensely anti just because you left. I feel like most people that leave just fill that void with anger and hatred, but I hope where you end up fills you with peace and joy. It seems like that’s the case. Merry Christmas
Praying for tomorrow in Missouri and so sorry to hear about your loss, Jeff. Thank you for doing this video. There is a pastor who has a channel called Hello Saints and his name is pastor Jeff and I wish you would engage him because his way of apologetics is so weak and quite frankly dangerous to other Christians. Grateful that you speak so much truth and I didn't know the meaning behind that scripture "you are gods" until now. Interesting!
Jeff, thank you for your work and wisdom you bring to the Church. In my past I've held small things against you and I'm sorry. As brothers in christ this may be the only way to reach out to you considering the countless comments and letters you might receive
It seems to me that Heiser in the first video was making a distinction to prove that the Isaiah verses were not disproving the idea of his view of the Trinity. I do t think Jacob was trying to misrepresent Heiser in saying “see! Even one of them believes in the Mormon view of the Godhead and eternal progression”. But the clip does correctly point out Jacob’s view that Isaiah was using idiomatic verbage when talking about one God.
I love these videos. I love your sermons. I only hope that someone scoots over to give me a seat at the table though (like literally move over and make a spot for me to sit down at service). God bless.
I loved this episode just like I love everything ya'll do. But to be fair to Dr. Heiser, his teachings on the unseen realm were rather revolutionary and unheard of for my family and the kinds of circles I grew up in. Both of my parents went to a Bible collage and my dad is a pastor and neither had known about the things the late doctor spoke of, and like everything else, when Mom got into studying it, became a topic of debate between the two. All I'm saying is, maybe you happened to have the right Bible collage but possibly most of the average lay people (and potentially elders and pastors as well) weren't as educated in the things Heiser taught and were truly surprised and edified by his teachings. Keep up the great work you guys! Soli Deo Gloria!
Exactly my thoughts! I didn’t appreciate the “sloppy” comment either because if you understood the context or watched the full video, you would get it. Heiser is clear. On what Elohim means and it’s reflection on the nature of God. I wish they are also not “sloppy” with their criticisms.
This is all so amazing! Praise God~ Please pray dear family in Christ for my daughter Alia to come to Christ and my son Elijah to wake up to the times were in.. Thank you so very much beloved family ~ God Bless each and everyone of you ~
Very sorry about the loss of your mother. I really appreciated the clarification and tone of this video over the previous one - perhaps that had to do with a very difficult time. I also think Heiser was confusing as I have only watched some of his videos, and could rarely understand his overall point, and I feel like I'm not totally dense. 😅. To be most charitable I think perhaps he wanted Christians to understand supernatural powers were part of God's council and to show us we will also reign with God. I just probably need to read his book. Biblical exaltation is such a beautiful doctrine. Mormon exaltation heresy just doesn't compare. I would love to see a series on that, various Christian views of theosis, and biblical angelogy and demonology, either in comparison with Mormonism or on its own. Thanks for the video recommendations; I will check them out. Mormons are missing so much from scripture. Thanks also for the explanation on Psalm 82. My personal view is that sons of God or elohim refer to rulers and princes including in Genesis 6:2. (The text is possibly referring to polygamous actions of human kings to gain power. I think this one of Satan's favorite lies as it is a lie that contradicts Christ as the bridegroom with ONE bride. What did Mormons practice?) Psalm 82 possibly has a double meaning of both human and heavenly evil princes. Jesus condemns them in John 10 for judging wrongly. I finally have an understanding of what Jesus was fully saying, thank you. He was saying the scriptures do not rule out other heavenly rulers so you are too quick in your theology to dismiss me. But yet he makes clear how He is God. He is explaining that they should have anticipated how God could reveal Himself further. Jesus is Yahweh. Psalm 110 just totally refutes Mormon doctrine about Yahweh, and shows the Father is Yahweh. Each person of the Trinity is Yahweh - Deuteronomy 12:6 shows the Holy Spirit is Yahweh.
Well, Dr Heiser did state several times this isn't new info or his info, but others info he combined and focused on. But, yes, I agree with you Jeff. Being a former mormon myself, your videos really helped me transition out of the cult. So thank you
ABSOLUTELY the real church (a body of believers, not an organization or building) and His pure doctrinal teaching found in scripture alone, preserved for us in the Bible. Amen.
Durbin is a false teacher. Any pee-on can pick up the bible and preach their uninspired ideas about. And to top it off, Durbin is a catholic apostate. He doesn't belong to church that Christ recognizes as his.
I was once a Mormon. They never could quite comprehend Dr. Heiser's concept of divinities. But they got all excited at his works, thinking that finally there were Christians beginning to think the way that they do.
The strength of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is so strong that there is only one tenable in the whole Christian world, and that is the position of the Catholic Church. The issue is between Catholicism and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. If Catholics are right, the LDS Church is wrong; if The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are right, the Catholics are wrong; and that's all there is to it. The Protestants haven't a leg to stand on. For, if the Catholics are wrong, they are wrong with us, since they were a part of us and went out from us; while if we are right, they are apostates whom we cut off long ago. If Catholics have apostolic succession from St Peter, as we claim, there is no need of Joseph Smith and the Restoration; but if we have not that succession, then such a man as Joseph Smith was necessary, and the LDS Church's attitude is the consistent one. It is either the perpetuation of the gospel from ancient times, or the Restoration of the gospel in latter days.
There is no situation where the Mormons are right. Joe Smith was a grifter from the start. The Mormon faith isn't biblical in any way. The theology is heretical from top to bottom
Michael Heiser: God, says there are other Elohim but there are no Elohim like Him. We love Heiser! Pancreatic stage 4 cancer. He went home on February 20, 2023
Heiser never claimed it was new - in fact, the opposite - but it hasn't been taught in a lot of churches today. If I remember correctly, he was either doing his doctorate, or had finished it already, before he came across it, so even a lot of Bible colleges haven't been teaching it.
Apologia, I love Apologia. I'm thankful for the information bc it has pulled my wife Mormonism. About this video, some talk too much sometimes, disallowing the viewer/ listener to hear the arguments. Let the false preacher/ teacher dig their own grave. Thanks again for your work in the ministry. Have a nice day!
Pastor Jeff Durbin is an extremely intelligent man with an incredible attention to detail. The point being is that his level of intelligence is not necessary to completely debunk and refute Mormonism, any 12 year old Sunday school student is capable of this task. And at the risk of redundancy, has anyone heard of DNA, this completely and irrefutably exposes the book of Mormon as a childish fairy tale
To be clear, just to ensure nothing is going over my head, by referencing the DNA, your point is that their book claims Nephi / Lehi and all of them came to the Americas and populated it and thus the native Americans aka Indians would have to be of middle eastern descent but genetic studies have proven they are of Asian descent? I'm assuming, because I can't think of what else you'd be meaning. If so, I agree. Along with the claims of this Jaredite civilization using steel, horses, oxen, ect when none of that existed prior to the Europeans coming for roughly 10,000+ years, and there being a massive war between advanced civilizations yet not one shred of archaeological evidence exists.. Yeah. It's a trip. Can't wait for Church tomorrow.. Pretty sure this week should be the one where everyone goes up to bear their testimonies that they have about knowing Smith was a true prophet and their the true church of christ. 😅
I absolutely love you guys and what you do for the Christian faith so take this little side note in love. "Woke" or wokeness has nothing at all to do with being gay. I hate it every time someone uses it out of context to its original meaning. When black people started using "woke" back in the day and in recent years it was about our people being conscious concerning us. It was about educating ourselves and not being ignorant to the world around us. It's deeper than that but I'll leave it there. Please feel free to search it up first then come back and comment... or don't. God bless everyone.
Talk about sleight of hand. Jeff, Jacob didn’t use heiser’s quote to prove he is not a trinitarian. He used it to show that the particular passages discussed were “not statements of denial, but boasts of incomparability”. Heiser can believe that and still believe in the trinity. Either way the concept that the scriptures discussed are statements of incomparability as heiser clearly taught supports Jacob’s case.
@apologia studios... i love you guys but please can you work on your video naming. Either link all parts in the video information section or use part x of xx in the names. Its very difficult to find the next parts of your videos as they have different names and no links.
I just wanted to throw out there, could mike be taken out of context if you don't understand his full belief? Yes. But so can anyone, I'm not super familiar with all of his works, but when I read unseen realm, it was new and mind blowing to me… I think he did a great job of spelling out what is misunderstood by the common Christian. I don't think sloppy is quite the right term… but I get what you mean, easily taken out of context, but he is dealing with an issue that we don't really have clear wording to fully explain in english. Btw his FringePop321 channel is going to continue with, dang it, I can't remember his name right away, the dude with the barret that he had on there quite a bit, great stuff on there. Great stuff on your channel too brother Jeff, be seeing you tomorrow in ol JCMO
When I've discussed the "gods" in Psalm 82 and John 10 with Mormons, and bring up that they die, the response is often that it is somehow good to die so that we progress...to become gods and goddesses. It does not seem to undo their beliefs about themselves becoming gods and goddesses. Especially widows and widowers who do not want to let go of becoming gods with their departed spouse when they die.
Jacob probably used Michael Heiser simply because he's dead now and cannot come back and refute what this guy is suggesting he said. Prayers for you and your family, Jeff. Love you brother.
Will you be reviewing Thoughtful Faith's part 3? I think there is a lot of good content there to address. I'm so sorry about your mom's passing Jeff. Prayers for you and your family!
This is good stuff. You can actually use the whole chapter of isaiah 44 and not just that one verse, in that chapter idolatry and other Gods are two different separated distinct sections. The first section is about no other Gods, no idolatry
A good question to ask would be: If God was The Only True God in the way Christians mean it, what could He say to demonstrate that? Because the epistemic system Jacob set up is just one where even if there were only One God, nobody could be able to know because all these verses can just be reinterpreted.
The reaction from the crowd in John 10 shows that what Jesus said was enough. 26But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish-ever; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29[†]My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are [†]one.” 31The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. 32Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” 33The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself God.” They wanted to kill Him for claiming to be God. That means they knew what He was claiming. I'm confident Jacob knows too, if he admits it that means he doesn't get to be a god. That's quite a reason to reject God like the Jews did.
Also Re: Mike Heiser- he never said anything he was teaching was new- in fact he often said that he’d never had an original idea- he just made his own work & the work of other academic scholars available to the rest of us- “Middle Earth “ as he liked to say 😉
Except that while technically not new or original. Heiser's admissions affirm that while verses like Isa. 43:10 may be legitimately cited against Mormons theology that men can eventually become Gods themselves like the Father. Trinitarians are wrong to try and cite those Isaiah passages against other religious groups like Jehovah's Witnesses. Since the verses don't rule out the existence of any other elohim or "gods" in heaven. But only other "Gods", I.e., "Almighty Gods" like YHWH or Jehovah there.
I don’t know why Jeff keeps repeating this “novelty” point as if Heiser actually said so. It’s very off putting. Just focus on the Mormon in debate man.
I think Genesis 3:4-5 also touches the "godliness" of men issue. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. Genesis 3:4-5 KJV New dogs, old tricks
jeff why dont you debate jacob urself because if your reacting to all of this do a big deabte a couple of your guys or just you with jacob and a couple of his guys or just you settle it instead of being girls and responding to eachother videos.
Jeff you’re being a little unfair to Heiser in this. You said he was acting like he discovered this and that it was new. He has specifically stated that none of what he has popularized is new information. He has stated that he saw himself as a synthesizer. Someone that takes this information and can bring it to a lay audience.
Jacob is not claiming that Eastern Orthodox Christians believe in the same things as what he does regarding theosis!! He merely brings it up as a comparison. The whole point is that the Churchbif Jesus Christ believes that it has more truth than what other denominations do. So we can talk about ideas and expound upon them, because we believe that God’s authority has been bestowed on man in the form or prophets and apostles even in our day.
Jeff Durbin now says he’ll get an Eastern Orthodox minister in to dispute Mormonism. That’s like a Pharisee saying he’ll get a Sadducee in to dispute Christianity. So what?
I think hieser presenting the subject as revelatory is valid. Maybe not to someone who went to college but for the average Christian in the context of average western Christian exposition, hearing what he had to say was definitely different than what most are taught. IMHO
Two things, No. 1- Citing Heiser's work for the latter day saint, is certainly problematic. Heiser both was and I'd say IS a trinitarian. As stated by Jeff, Heiser's works demonstrate the trinity even in the old testament. Heiser's work also affirms that Yahweh was "species unique" and that He alone is eternal (uncreated) omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. Those Isaiah passages not only talk about one God, but they demonstrate God's uniqueness by showing that the gods of the other nations don't have the power He does. Because those gods are created beings and limited in power. To use Heiser's work to try to bring credibility to something that is completely contrary to what Heiser believed in his theology is definitely an abuse to what he actually said. No. 2- I've thought for a while now that there would be a bit of a clash between Heiser's works and Apologia. Yes he is a trinitarian and while I would not agree with Jeff's assessment that he was "sloppy" I would say that Heiser was not direct enough in his statements to help prevent people like Jacob from misusing his teachings. I would also say that while there are plenty of basic things Heiser pushes and gives the impression that they are ground breaking work, when in fact many Christians already knew of and taught these things, (ex. Genesis 6 sons of God, daughters of men view). I would encourage Apologia, in particular to look at Heiser's teachings on Psalm 82 and Deuteronomy 32:8-9. I'd love to here a more comprehensive analysis of what you all think of his teachings of the divine council worldview and think it would be great if Dr. White was also involved in that analysis. Heiser is also fairly critical of Calvinism and uses his view of the divine council and man being made in the image of God as being a means for man to have complete autonomous free will. His view of Genesis 1:26-28 is a non trinitarian view and I believe is the foundation for his soteriological views. I'm also not big on Heisers "believing loyalty" doctrine. While certain aspects of it are biblical, its application is contrary, I'd say, to the idea of perseverance of the saints. In a nutshell, Heiser teaches that believing loyalty, is our ability to stay in belief and that is what perseveres us to the end, as opposed to the work of God alone. I'd love to hear Jeff or Dr. White interact with that teaching specifically. If there is even an already existing episode of Apologia or the Dividing Line that deals with some of these things, I'd love to get a link to that. As a "heads-up" I would also say that there are many Heiser followers out there and they can be very critical of those who have much of anything to say that could possibly be negative towards his work. Simply from calling him "sloppy" could have some negative backlash. I doubt Jeff would be at all intimidated by that, but as a supporter of you all thats my heads up. I think Michael Heiser was an actual Christian, who loved God, and sought to be a blessing to the saints of God in the work that he left behind. I don't know that anyone from Apologia will actually see or read this post, but would love some interaction on some level of these issues. I think having a comprehensive knowledge of Heiser's work will help us all in our interactions with both fellow believers and unbelievers as well.
This is on-point. I hope Jeff hears your point. I am not even an avid follower but I’ve read his books and even I could understand the supposedly “sloppy” Elohim concept. Also Heisers teachings were not completely new to me but he made some true revelations to me and many who didn’t go through seminary. I will always be grateful for his works and how God used him. God bless.
Had these pre-mormons (who were Christians) been adequately familiar with Scripture they would have heeded all the various warnings about false prophets, false doctrine, and false signs; they would have promptly tarred and feathered Joseph Smith on the spot...
I like Heiser a lot and i think a ton of his work is helpful for people who hadnt really ever looked at the text and never thought about some of the language differences. I think him being "sloppy" is a result of his seminars being hours long, spanning huge lengths within the bible and discussing topics about the spiritual realm - its his way of teaching to sort of be fluid and having overlaps. taking him out of context is the sloppy part. likely a googles search pulled the results they wanted and used it for their argument without fully understanding the doctrine.
Praying for you and your family pastor Jeff may the lord comfort you all in his peace that surpasses all understanding and the glorious promise we have of eternal life ❤
I’ve always had a problem understanding Heiser especially the opening chapter of Unseen Realm. I think the word “sloppy” is perfect because he actually can be very confusing.
@@docfate exactly. It’s clear people can never be satisfied with anything you do. Sloppy is quite a rash criticism for people who actually do not study under Heiser and clearly do not have full context of his teachings or background. That comment really put me off tbh.
Low key sounds like you're hating on brother Heiser a bit. I think it's great that he brought some of these things up in a big way for better discussions! Give him some credit bro!
Exactly. I’m trying so hard to listen but I need Jeff to cool it honestly. It’s very annoying. He just caused a Mormon to make him take unnecessary digs at a fellow Christian.
Jeff Durbin gloats that Jesus Christ said “I and the Father are one” as if that’s more special than the destiny God has for us. Jesus also said; John 17:21-23.
I also just asked him that. I think he's dangerous and I want Jeff to call him out on it. He actually sounds like a Mormon and looks like a Mormon and I don't think he pulls a single Mormon into true Biblical Christianity but makes a lot of Mormon friends and a lot of hopeful Mormons that probably one day believes he will convert.
I thank Jeff, he continues to encourage me to read the Bible, Book of Mormon, the D&C, and the pearl of Great Price. I have begun going back to the LDS church because of his videos, im not the only one, too! 😃
Dont play with your soul please. Lds is false. Come to Jesus. You will never be a god. Run from any church that tells you that you can. It is of satan.
It’s hard to hear someone to say “this is basic Bible school” when us ex-Mormons or even newly born again Christians don’t know this stuff about being species unique. Glad I’m aware of it all now though
Apologia talks about 1 Corinthians 8 teaching that there is but one God but 1 Corinthians 8 says that “TO US there is but one God, the Father”. 1 Corinthians 8 actually teaches that our one God is the Father and our one Lord is Jesus Christ. But 1 Corinthians 8 clearly teaches that there are gods many and doesn’t call them idols.
That is your take. I noticed you posted numerous times recently, but you attack rather than explain yourself. We were made in his image. Using quotes taken without the context is the jist of this video. The LDS church has a very public history as does Christianity. You some how believe God’s word was corrupted and therefore never had control over it. Hardly a resounding endorsement of God is it? Jesus died on the cross only to have nasty humans to distort everything that means.Hardly giving God any credit to sustain much is it? Just ignore all and now 18 centuries later a man refutes it all! How would you defend J.S. Now as a real prophet? His life style? His grasp of history? His prophesies? What makes real sense to you? Faith and logic are not mutually exclusive. Islam has over a billion followers….does that make it legitimate. Do you follow blindly or do you have logic to back up all LDS history as reasonable? History and archaeology are found so evident in the Bible. Can anything remotely even show the BOM can explain the known history of the Americas? Where is the logic? Faith is not blind.
@@garywright9715 those are great questions to ask LDS. And you’re right, faith is not blind and John Lennox was very big on this in his apologetics. It’s taking a commitment based on evidence. Being raised LDS, I realized when Jesus delivered me from my depression that he was so much more than just the savior. I started thinking logically, how could this man forgive sins and raise the dead without being some kind of deity. But see being Mormon, when you refer to God, you are referring to the father. I used to defend Mormonism thinking it’s Christian just because they believe in Christ. And by no means was I a devout Mormon but my theology was definitely rooted in LDS core doctrine (God was a man and Jesus is his literal offspring). But the truth is, they’re afraid of these contradictions because they don’t understand the Bible. They use the most difficult translation of the Bible and are huge on self-interpretation. They actually encourage it. When I try to explain the major holes in LDS theology and history to my parents they do the same thing Muslims do. Explain away. They like to use the straw man argument, “where is the word trinity in the Bible,” while fully knowing that’s not how the trinity was formed. And like Mohammad, Joseph Smith had to criticize the Bible in order for his book to make sense. And they love pointing out fulfilled prophecies and even try to twist unfulfilled prophecies. But even then, that doesn’t mean anything. Deuteronomy 13:1-5 tells us that if a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams says something will take place, and it takes place, but says let us worship Gods you do not know do not be deceived for the lord your God is testing you. And that’s exactly what Joseph did. Not a single church father taught anything close to the LDS gods. Nor does the Bible. But the members butcher the Bible to fit their theology. 98% of Mormons have their own interpretation and the other 2% butcher the original text. They simply don’t test prophets because they treat them as if they are infallible. Even though they’re teaching clear heresy. That’s the best way I can explain Mormons.
I think Jacob is invoking Heiser because of his answer to "none other before me", not because Jacob thinks Heiser believes in multiple Gods of the same species as Jehovah. I think you're sidestepping the real issue, which is, what does the phrase "none other before me" really mean? The scriptures Heiser brought up seem to demonstrate that the phrase left room for other Gods, as that phrase left room for other cities when used in a slightly different situation.
Except Heiser’s work doesn’t allow for other gods that are “species unique”, that’s the entire point of Heiser’s thesis and the very point Durbin is making here. “None before / after me” is referring to species unique deity, not idols or heavenly beings.
@Pistachio-Cat exactly this. In a weird way, fiction is quite a helpful touchstone here - in the works of Tolkien, for example, Eru Illuvatar is the one true God, he is ‘species unique’, but he creates divine beings (or ‘Valar’) which approximate the ‘gods’ of Ancient Greece or Rome. But Illuvatar is the One in whom those heavenly beings live and move and have their beings; no other ‘God’ is Being itself. You see a similar thing in the DC universe, in which the Abrahamic God exists but he creates the gods of myth and legend as subservient entities. Obviously, those are just examples from human-made fiction, not holy scripture. But they illustrate the point Heiser / Durbin is making: that the biblical God is species unique, he is Being itself, in whom all the ‘gods’ and heavenly creatures live and move and have their being. No other ‘god’ exists like him.
You're free to make that assumption, but it doesn't stand in light of what Heiser himself has said about not agreeing with the Mormons irresponsible use(s) of his materials.
Sorry if this turns into a long comment. If other Christian’s disagree with me, feel free to do so. When you look at descriptions in the Bible, hyperbole is used. There is no way around that. These hyperboles were not unique to Israel, they were used in surrounding nations as well. However, how we need to see our God, YHWY, is that he is the hyperbole. You can almost look at it as how they describe these other cities in the same manner. Well guess what, YHWY is what you use as hyperbole. He goes out of his way to show this too. I encourage you to look into the story of Exodus more if you haven’t already. Specifically into the gods of Egypt. The plagues are actually playing to the powers of certain gods of Egypt. If you notice too, these other gods seem to have a minuscule power to do these things at first. YHWY is showing his power over every one of these gods, he puts them all to shame. The later plagues have no response from the Egyptian gods. They all pale in comparison to him in every way. This same thing can be seen with Elijah and him burning the alter, YHWY showing superiority to Baal in a hyperbolic way. Not only throwing water on it, but soaking it with a moat around it. He is literally the first and the last. He literally knows no other, there is none like YHWY. And guess what, Jesus is the destroyer of gods. That is another thing Heiser teaches. If you look at these Psalm 82 and John 10, people either say they are earthy rulers or other gods (beings created by YHWY). Jesus destroys these gods justly, in both cases. So it was either the rulers or for instance the gods of Egypt or Baal as examples from above. As you can see, none of this lines up with the LDS interpretations of these verses.
In Psalm 82 Elohim is used for these unjust judges because Elohim in Hebrew can mean judges since judges are supposed to represent the one true G-d who is the only absolute moral judge of the universe
One can: what one does is confess jesus as the only God and lord and know that his sacrifice on the cross is enough to save ones self from the pains of outer darkness. 1 john chapter 5 is a beautiful chapter that may offer guidance. -Christian L
“Before me was no God formed neither shall there be after me.”Isaiah 43:10. God was talking to Israelites who were worshipping idols that they formed out of wood or stone. No real gods are ever “formed”. The Bible clearly teaches the doctrine of the existence of multiple gods and men becoming gods, though we only worship one God, the Father and one Lord, Jesus Christ; Deuteronomy 10:17, Joshua 22:22, Psalms 82:1, Psalms 82:6, Psalms 136:2, Daniel 11:36, Matthew 5:48, 10:34, John 17:22, Acts 17:29, Romans 8:17, 1 Corinthians 8:5,6. 2 Corinthians 3:18, Galatians 4:7, Ephesians 4:13, Philippians 2:5,6, 1 John 3:2, Revelation 3:21.
Heiser wasn't sloppy bro. He was right on point. If anybody misunderstood what he said it's because they have a low IQ. In fact he actually made it very simple to understand what he was saying. He couldn't have broken it down any clearer than if he had drawn pictures with crayons. I'm not really sure what you're looking for here except maybe to bash the man now that he's passed on. Pretty weak approach there Jeff.
I don’t believe Heiser was sloppy. His own experience in seminary was different than yours. As a lay person who likes to read Heiser and Justen to those who know the history and language, I know this, but I can guarantee you that what Heiser taught is not common knowledge in many evangelical or Protestant churches today. Other than that, great video!
Ok so let’s read John 10:34-36 the way Jeff Durbin does; “John 10: 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are HEAVENLY BEINGS? 35 If he called them HEAVENLY BEINGS, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?” The Jeff Durbin translation makes no sense of what Jesus was actually saying.
They change up Michael Heiser all the time , while I disagree with Heiser and the sons of God, but they think Heiser psalm 82 is saying there are multiple gods, not that these were angels and the divine council
I watched just one of Heisers vids and knew immediately where he stood on the topic. He quotes out of total context of a deceased man that cannot refute him on it. Prayers the Mormon does just exactly that. Take the video down apologize and repent of his false religious beliefs and comes to the only Gospel that saves.
21:28 struggling . okay? micheal hieser whats wrong? its not like you use the journal of discourses and king follet discourses of joseph smith going to missionaries people dont complain about that how funny and you are here complaining? 1. misrepresentation. 2. 3. redefinitions.
I love Michael Hieser’s books, but I do agree he definitely could have, and should have been more clear about the irrefutable truth of THE TRINTY! I too was occasionally thrown off tract when reading his books , because it seemed as though he was going down another path, however, I read enough of his stuff to know he was indeed Trinitarian.
My only complaint so far has been Luke misidentifying Katakana as Kanji. Kanji are the chinese characters/symbols (i.e. 学校) and katakana is a writing system that nowadays is primarily used for writing foreign loan words (America - アメリカ). Incidentally you can have a combination of both (American - アメリカ人 - Amerika-jin). Jeff's shirt (ミッキーマウス) transliterated says "Mikkii Mausu", the dash being an extension of the i-vowel and the small ツ makes the k sound a double consonant which basically means you put a phonetic stop there. In musical terms, all consonant-vowel combinations are treated with one value (quarter note for example), and a dash or double consonant gets treated like twice that value instead of a quarter note they would be treated as a half note. I realize all that is way off topic, but I've been enjoying this and the last video tremendously. Between you guys and Dr. White, I've probably gotten a better understanding of Mormonism and JWs than from anything I ever learned in church or college when the issue comes up. Keep up the good work and God bless.
Han is the Chinese writing system and Kanji is the Japanese phrase for Han - "chinese characters", whichs speaks to the cultural transformation. It's very difficult to read any form of Chinese for just knowing Japanese Kanji and vice versa. Just, the way you describe kanji would give the wrong impression - I think. Also mentioning katakana without the context of hiragana might not mean much to those who don't already know, even saying it's for loan words. English doesn't really do that to expect people to think about it. People might imagine normal Japanese to be mostly katakana just for not thinking what the normal syllabary looks like. I might want to get the multiple readings of kanji and kana writings, if you were to go into the weeds that much... I don't see a problem with that verbose a comment, since you're already half way there and it'd only make it more helpful. I appreciate your comment!
@GRAYgoose124 The multiple readings issue alone can be a massive headache for learning the language even for native speakers! Even then the rules for when it's the Japanese reading of a character or the Chinese reading of a character isn't always consistent let alone a character having multiple possibilities. Just sort of becomes an issue of having to know what the word is by itself and knowing what character to use. But make sure you use the right one because there are way more homophones in Japanese than in English. Then there's pitch accent instead of stress accent which usually helps to differentiate words but not always. はな (hana) for example means flower or nose and both have the exact same pitch pattern. Of course, the pitch on where you attach the particle, は for example has a different pattern depending on what word it is so that will tip you off, but in isolation, just the written word はな could mean flower, nose, or even the end point of something. Oh yeah, explaining particles is something we don't worry about in English either. But yeah, there's a lot more than what I even said in the original comment. I've been studying it off an on for about a year. Fascinating language.
@@mrpsthoughtsonthings Hey, I'm down for Mr. P's long-form, but yeah - you did a great job with your brevity. I really love traversing homophone kanji then flipping to alternate readings... Wish I knew it so my sapir-whorfed brain grew with those degrees of freedom and that contextual plasticity. Makes me feel like English is so... Boring... Love how word order is just convention and particles are like these logical building blocks... I'm not great at natural languages, but it's fascinating indeed..
@GRAYgoose124 Yup. There's usually a word order of sorts but it does seem like as long as all the particles are where the need to be and as long as the sentence ends with a verb (or adjective since they function like verbs a lot of times too), word order almost doesn't matter. Confusing for English speakers, but I assume it becomes more natural the faster your brain can process the particles and words in the sentence. There's a book called 80/20 Japanese I bought that does a good job of explaining particle functions. One of the early exercises is basically "here is a list of words, here is the sentence in English, these are the particles to use. Now, write the sentence." It's essentially like using a math equation or putting a puzzle together. Definitely worth checking out. Guy has a website that has tons of free information on it as well that I found useful like when to use は or が as a particle. Japanese Ammo is a good channel too run by a Japanese girl from Australia. Lot of good beginner stuff and more advanced lessons as well for free.
Heiser was a great man. He took great issue with the "free will" subject but aside from that and a few opinions about women preaching he was AMAZING. Its so amazing knowing he is sharing in Gods glory with all of the saints. Just an amazing person
Elohim, singular Eloah (Hebrew: God). This term is a plural majesty. "Elohim" is used at times for other deities and majestic beings such as angels, kings, and judges. However, it is usually employed in the Old Testament for the one and only God of Israel, whose personal name was revealed to Moses as YHWH. When referring to Yahweh, Elohim very often is accompanied by the article "ha'" to mean, the "God." Though it is plural in form it is understood in the singular sense. Thus, Elohim is monotheistic in connotation though its grammatical construction appears polytheistic. The Israelites likely borrowed this name from the Canaanites but changed its meaning when they used the term for Yahweh. This is basic "Introduction to the Old Testament" information found in most seminary text books of different Christian faiths. This Mormon apologist simply has not done his homework in advance. I have noticed that most Mormon apologists do not have academic credentials in the disciplines of biblical studies, original languages such as Hebrew, Aramaic, or Koine Greek, biblical theology, church history, Patristics, polemics, apologetics, or even philosophy. Most of them major in communication or some other non-religious program of study. I have noticed this tendency is a severe weakness in their overall LDS apologetics.
Possibly so ... However, Mormon apologists like Tate and others have nevertheless correctly pointed out though the admissions of scholars like Heiser that the Bible does not really teach a strict Monotheism as most commonly believe today. But in reality a more relative system of ancient "Monolatrism" or "Monolatry," where though only one unique and genuine Almighty God exist as YHWH worthy of exclusive worship and devotion. Passages like Isa. 43:10 do not rule out the existence of other "gods" in heaven in a secondary or inferior sense under the Father, such as the angels as "sons of God" and "elohim" at verses like Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7; Psa. 8:5; 97:7; 138:1. And while these secondary "elohim" may not actually support the Mormon polytheistic concept of the heavenly realm. But, with equal disdain to Trinitarians of course, it does actually provide support for the beliefs of others such as Jehovah's Witnesses. Who maintain that Christ as "the Son of God" is the firstborn and greatest of the angels as "sons of God" and elohim ("gods"). Thereby making Jesus "a god" and "the only-begotton god" as the first highest one of them, or the "Archangel."
Theosis is derived from the greek word, "God", so the literal definition of theosis is "Being made God". No if there is a more narrow belief unique to Eastern Orthodox theology, then that needs to be clarified. I believe Jacob was referring to the exact definition of theosis, not the eastern orthodox theosis doctrine.
Jeff Durbin says “you shall die like men you unjust judges” but that is a complete fabrication of Jeff Durbin. Psalm 82:6 doesn’t say that at all. Indeed Romans 8:17 tells us that if we suffer with Christ i.e. die also, we might become joint heirs with him. Isn’t Christ also a god who died but rose again. And in so doing we receive of the same glory that the Father and Christ have; John 17:22.
It can be in no way surprising that a Mormon apologist would dig up an evangelical scholar who explains OT exegesis and takes it out of context to prove false LDS theology. #ifItQuacks
The Eastern Orthodox have a great emphasis on theosis but I know Roman Catholics and Lutherans have similar doctrines about salvation as participation. I'm not sure what other denominations think or teach on the topic.
Lutherans, at least confessional evangelical Lutherans, are monergist. Meaning we don't have free will when it comes to salvation or spiritual matters. Faith is a gift from God. I know this because I am a Lutheran. It sounded like you were implying Lutherans were Arminian which we are not, maybe that's not what you were trying to convey, but if you were I just wanted to offer a respectful correction
@Raunchy Conservative Salavation as participation does not mean that we participate in our own salvation through the power of our will. Rather, it means that upon our death we participate in Christ's divine nature some how. We don't become God but we don't merely sit on a cloud strumming a harp for all eternity either. I believe it's also called the mystical union by some Lutheran theologians. I absolutely agree that confessional Lutherans are monergistic, although not in the same way Calvinists are. I'm a confessional Lutheran as well. Nice to see another Lutheran out in the wild lol.
@@chemnitzfan654 right on brother!! It’s great to see another confessional Lutheran! we definitely seem to be underrepresented as far as the Christian voices on TH-cam go. Thank you for clarifying, I figured you were talking about something else, I’ll have to do a deep dive on salvation as participation, sounds fascinating and is obviously an area I’m unfamiliar with lol. God bless you brother
Mormons Are Christians Jeff you’re taking a lot of liberty in your interpretation of Heisers words here. Heiser clearly admits that when interpreted correctly the way the Old Testament people commonly used these words that they aren’t talking about there being no other gods but that they meant that God is incomparable to other gods. That’s a distinctly different way of interpreting the scripture from the way you try to beat Mormons with that scripture in Isaiah 43:10 for example. To say that LDS Members worship a different God than you do because he is before and there where none after like in Isaiah is not the way Heiser interprets that kind of text. According to Heiser the Scriptures are saying that god is incomparable to other gods NOT that there aren’t other True Gods or Heavenly beings. Mormons can agree with Heisers interpretation here though we wouldn’t go as far as saying god is a unique species because the Bible doesn’t explicitly say that. We believe that God is incomparable and that he is different from us because he is our father and the creator. None of us are the creator or the father of everything like God. Only God is the Master of the universe and if we become perfect gods see psalms 82:6 and mathew 5:48 then we are still not God the father and creator of this universe. Basically you need to Offer some more grace and room for interpretation of these Scriptures apart from your own selective ridged interpretation which Heiser says shouldn’t even be used the way you use it because that is incorrect in how they used language in those days. Mormons can therefore believe in the true and only God that the Bible speaks of and also believe there are other Gods and that we can become like god and also believe in the same Jesus Christ the Bible teaches. So you need to send an apology to All the Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and admit that Mormons are Christians. Your being extremely offensive when you state otherwise and you are being unchristian sir.
Having watched both videos. Why don’t these guys stop creating reaction videos and just meet up and debate. Jeff has done several of debates with diverse people. Jacob has done a few himself. Both ought to be open to it right!? Give the people what they want! A formal debate!
Prayers for your mother’s funeral, Jeff. May you know the Lord’s peace.
Jeff - as a Papist commenter here - please accept my condolences and know of my prayers for you, your family, and your mother and that she may be with Him in Paradise today . Love and peace be with you. Eternal rest grant unto her O Lord. And let perpetual light shine upon her. May the soul of the faithful departed through the mercy of God rest in peace. Amen.
❤
Def. Paptist
Brother Jeff is so pro life just like the Catholic Church is too and indeed it’s the largest pro life organization in the world and the first organizers of the pro life movement were Catholics so we should all unite on our common Trinitarian faith and pro life ethics
Jeff, as a former temple endowed devout Mormon for 34 yrs., I taught many classes that quote prophets and general authorities teaching every word Jeff said the LDS church teaches.
Jeff is 💯 correct in his mormon doctrine and the generation coming forth today twist the basic core doctrines to sound more mainstream.
I saw it coming when the Im A Mormon campaign started.
Those of us who went through the temple before covenants were changed to sound less crazy remember exactly what was said and done.
It haunts me to this day.
LDS doctrine is far far from biblical.
Praise God my eyes were opened.
Keep teaching truth Jeff Durban.
Praise God
This was such an encouragement to read! My heart grieves for those still stuck in the Mormon religion but it’s so wonderful to hear that the Lord plucked you out of that darkness
as someone who is trying to open eyes to a friend mormon, i agree with you. he is in his early 20s and what he says the church preaches is not the same as what ive researched it preaches, so i was wondering if he was being dishonest or if they were lying to him when they were teaching him. either way, what he believes in is not biblical and we disagree on so many things, especially because i am someone who grew up as an orthodox christian and later on became atheist only to find God 4 years ago and learn that God isnt church and mens traditions and now i identify as non denom.My mormon friend thinks me not having a physical church means i am not Christian but even if i belonged to a church, he would say the same because i wasnt a mormon lol
Hallelujah 🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉 Praise the Lord brother!! see you in heaven!! 🙌🙌
I wish I could help. @@isidoravojinovic7362my own mother fell into this lie and despite my attempts to explain to her, unless something changed in her last days, died believing in Joseph Smith's version of Christianity. I pray that God changed her heart and leave that to His wisdom. Pray about it, stay respectful and caring, and speak the truth of God's word. Only He can change hearts.
This Mormon needs to stop using Michael Heisers stuff to argue for his nonsense theology! Dr. Heiser is a great trinitarian scholar!
They constantly use Catholic arguments but never use their own😂
Jacob wasn’t using Heiser’s words to say Heiser believes in Mormon theology. He was using his words to show one possible interpretation of the Isaiah verses brought up is in reference to incomparability. Heiser was probably using the incompatibility to prop up his Trinitarian view, but the same argument can be applied to Mormon view that he was talking about the incompatibility of God the Father to any of the idolatrous gods of the people in Isaiah’s time.
Jeff’s framing of Jacob quoting Heiser is a complete red herring for this entire video
@ I agree. And I’m an ex Mormon. I used to be a strict Protestant when coming out of the LDS church and I thought that apologia did a good job. But now that I have done a little more research and coming to the orthodox faith. I can see why when people make deconstruction videos and take part in deconstructionism it’s always Mormons, evangelicals, JWs. Never apostolic christians. Apologia is full of red herrings and complete straw man. They are the same way towards apostolic Christianity. They’re mad that Jacob Hansen lives rent free in their heads. He smoked members of their church in the 2 on 2 debates with Catholic apologetics. Although I think Jacob Hansen has his theology twisted, I think he’s probably a real good dude.
@@dereksyota that is super interesting. Thanks for not being intensely anti just because you left. I feel like most people that leave just fill that void with anger and hatred, but I hope where you end up fills you with peace and joy. It seems like that’s the case. Merry Christmas
Starts at 18:25
You're the real MVP!
Thank you!
Love seeing the young man from the debate on the discussion table with you. Keep bringing up the young ones!
Appreciate you guys so much. Great job, keep going.
Praying for tomorrow in Missouri and so sorry to hear about your loss, Jeff. Thank you for doing this video. There is a pastor who has a channel called Hello Saints and his name is pastor Jeff and I wish you would engage him because his way of apologetics is so weak and quite frankly dangerous to other Christians. Grateful that you speak so much truth and I didn't know the meaning behind that scripture "you are gods" until now. Interesting!
Jeff, thank you for your work and wisdom you bring to the Church. In my past I've held small things against you and I'm sorry. As brothers in christ this may be the only way to reach out to you considering the countless comments and letters you might receive
Dr. Heiser did an interview with Remnant Radio on theosis. Interesting and helpful for those confused on this.
I pray God holds you and your loved ones close in this time. ❤️😓
It seems to me that Heiser in the first video was making a distinction to prove that the Isaiah verses were not disproving the idea of his view of the Trinity. I do t think Jacob was trying to misrepresent Heiser in saying “see! Even one of them believes in the Mormon view of the Godhead and eternal progression”. But the clip does correctly point out Jacob’s view that Isaiah was using idiomatic verbage when talking about one God.
I love these videos. I love your sermons. I only hope that someone scoots over to give me a seat at the table though (like literally move over and make a spot for me to sit down at service). God bless.
I loved this episode just like I love everything ya'll do. But to be fair to Dr. Heiser, his teachings on the unseen realm were rather revolutionary and unheard of for my family and the kinds of circles I grew up in. Both of my parents went to a Bible collage and my dad is a pastor and neither had known about the things the late doctor spoke of, and like everything else, when Mom got into studying it, became a topic of debate between the two. All I'm saying is, maybe you happened to have the right Bible collage but possibly most of the average lay people (and potentially elders and pastors as well) weren't as educated in the things Heiser taught and were truly surprised and edified by his teachings. Keep up the great work you guys! Soli Deo Gloria!
Exactly my thoughts! I didn’t appreciate the “sloppy” comment either because if you understood the context or watched the full video, you would get it. Heiser is clear. On what Elohim means and it’s reflection on the nature of God.
I wish they are also not “sloppy” with their criticisms.
This is all so amazing! Praise God~
Please pray dear family in Christ for my daughter Alia to come to Christ and my son Elijah to wake up to the times were in.. Thank you so very much beloved family ~
God Bless each and everyone of you ~
Very sorry about the loss of your mother. I really appreciated the clarification and tone of this video over the previous one - perhaps that had to do with a very difficult time. I also think Heiser was confusing as I have only watched some of his videos, and could rarely understand his overall point, and I feel like I'm not totally dense. 😅. To be most charitable I think perhaps he wanted Christians to understand supernatural powers were part of God's council and to show us we will also reign with God. I just probably need to read his book. Biblical exaltation is such a beautiful doctrine. Mormon exaltation heresy just doesn't compare. I would love to see a series on that, various Christian views of theosis, and biblical angelogy and demonology, either in comparison with Mormonism or on its own. Thanks for the video recommendations; I will check them out. Mormons are missing so much from scripture. Thanks also for the explanation on Psalm 82. My personal view is that sons of God or elohim refer to rulers and princes including in Genesis 6:2. (The text is possibly referring to polygamous actions of human kings to gain power. I think this one of Satan's favorite lies as it is a lie that contradicts Christ as the bridegroom with ONE bride. What did Mormons practice?) Psalm 82 possibly has a double meaning of both human and heavenly evil princes. Jesus condemns them in John 10 for judging wrongly. I finally have an understanding of what Jesus was fully saying, thank you. He was saying the scriptures do not rule out other heavenly rulers so you are too quick in your theology to dismiss me. But yet he makes clear how He is God. He is explaining that they should have anticipated how God could reveal Himself further. Jesus is Yahweh. Psalm 110 just totally refutes Mormon doctrine about Yahweh, and shows the Father is Yahweh. Each person of the Trinity is Yahweh - Deuteronomy 12:6 shows the Holy Spirit is Yahweh.
🙏🏼 God Bless you and the ministry
Well, Dr Heiser did state several times this isn't new info or his info, but others info he combined and focused on. But, yes, I agree with you Jeff. Being a former mormon myself, your videos really helped me transition out of the cult. So thank you
Good for you
I pray and hope everyone can find the truth, and be lead to the real church of Christ and his pure doctrinal teachings.
What church is the real church of Christ?
@Dan L you mean the one with no instruments or the one that doesnt understand the 10 commandments?
ABSOLUTELY the real church (a body of believers, not an organization or building) and His pure doctrinal teaching found in scripture alone, preserved for us in the Bible. Amen.
Pastor Jeff, I pray the Lord will fill you and your family with the peace of the Spirit that surpasses all understanding. Sending you all big hugs.
Durbin is a false teacher. Any pee-on can pick up the bible and preach their uninspired ideas about. And to top it off, Durbin is a catholic apostate. He doesn't belong to church that Christ recognizes as his.
I was once a Mormon. They never could quite comprehend Dr. Heiser's concept of divinities. But they got all excited at his works, thinking that finally there were Christians beginning to think the way that they do.
The strength of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is so strong that there is only one tenable in the whole Christian world, and that is the position of the Catholic Church. The issue is between Catholicism and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. If Catholics are right, the LDS Church is wrong; if The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are right, the Catholics are wrong; and that's all there is to it. The Protestants haven't a leg to stand on. For, if the Catholics are wrong, they are wrong with us, since they were a part of us and went out from us; while if we are right, they are apostates whom we cut off long ago. If Catholics have apostolic succession from St Peter, as we claim, there is no need of Joseph Smith and the Restoration; but if we have not that succession, then such a man as Joseph Smith was necessary, and the LDS Church's attitude is the consistent one. It is either the perpetuation of the gospel from ancient times, or the Restoration of the gospel in latter days.
Muslims have over 2 Billion members forget about them? So the bigger the membership the more true?
There is no situation where the Mormons are right. Joe Smith was a grifter from the start. The Mormon faith isn't biblical in any way. The theology is heretical from top to bottom
Michael Heiser: God, says there are other Elohim but there are no Elohim like Him. We love Heiser! Pancreatic stage 4 cancer. He went home on February 20, 2023
Lds believe the same thing
Heiser never claimed it was new - in fact, the opposite - but it hasn't been taught in a lot of churches today.
If I remember correctly, he was either doing his doctorate, or had finished it already, before he came across it, so even a lot of Bible colleges haven't been teaching it.
Apologia,
I love Apologia. I'm thankful for the information bc it has pulled my wife Mormonism.
About this video, some talk too much sometimes, disallowing the viewer/ listener to hear the arguments. Let the false preacher/ teacher dig their own grave.
Thanks again for your work in the ministry. Have a nice day!
Please bring an Eastern Orthodox on. I have always been very interested in what they believe.
Hank Hanegraaff is Eastern Orthodox now.
Tony Costa Apologetics has a good one on this topic
Pastor Jeff Durbin is an extremely intelligent man with an incredible attention to detail. The point being is that his level of intelligence is not necessary to completely debunk and refute Mormonism, any 12 year old Sunday school student is capable of this task. And at the risk of redundancy, has anyone heard of DNA, this completely and irrefutably exposes the book of Mormon as a childish fairy tale
To be clear, just to ensure nothing is going over my head, by referencing the DNA, your point is that their book claims Nephi / Lehi and all of them came to the Americas and populated it and thus the native Americans aka Indians would have to be of middle eastern descent but genetic studies have proven they are of Asian descent? I'm assuming, because I can't think of what else you'd be meaning. If so, I agree. Along with the claims of this Jaredite civilization using steel, horses, oxen, ect when none of that existed prior to the Europeans coming for roughly 10,000+ years, and there being a massive war between advanced civilizations yet not one shred of archaeological evidence exists.. Yeah. It's a trip. Can't wait for Church tomorrow.. Pretty sure this week should be the one where everyone goes up to bear their testimonies that they have about knowing Smith was a true prophet and their the true church of christ. 😅
I absolutely love you guys and what you do for the Christian faith so take this little side note in love. "Woke" or wokeness has nothing at all to do with being gay. I hate it every time someone uses it out of context to its original meaning. When black people started using "woke" back in the day and in recent years it was about our people being conscious concerning us. It was about educating ourselves and not being ignorant to the world around us. It's deeper than that but I'll leave it there. Please feel free to search it up first then come back and comment... or don't. God bless everyone.
Talk about sleight of hand. Jeff, Jacob didn’t use heiser’s quote to prove he is not a trinitarian. He used it to show that the particular passages discussed were “not statements of denial, but boasts of incomparability”. Heiser can believe that and still believe in the trinity. Either way the concept that the scriptures discussed are statements of incomparability as heiser clearly taught supports Jacob’s case.
@apologia studios... i love you guys but please can you work on your video naming. Either link all parts in the video information section or use part x of xx in the names. Its very difficult to find the next parts of your videos as they have different names and no links.
I just wanted to throw out there, could mike be taken out of context if you don't understand his full belief? Yes. But so can anyone, I'm not super familiar with all of his works, but when I read unseen realm, it was new and mind blowing to me… I think he did a great job of spelling out what is misunderstood by the common Christian. I don't think sloppy is quite the right term… but I get what you mean, easily taken out of context, but he is dealing with an issue that we don't really have clear wording to fully explain in english. Btw his FringePop321 channel is going to continue with, dang it, I can't remember his name right away, the dude with the barret that he had on there quite a bit, great stuff on there. Great stuff on your channel too brother Jeff, be seeing you tomorrow in ol JCMO
so durbin explain what heiser means?
When I've discussed the "gods" in Psalm 82 and John 10 with Mormons, and bring up that they die, the response is often that it is somehow good to die so that we progress...to become gods and goddesses. It does not seem to undo their beliefs about themselves becoming gods and goddesses. Especially widows and widowers who do not want to let go of becoming gods with their departed spouse when they die.
You need to refute them with James Talmage’s explanation.
@@mr400meter what is that?
Jacob probably used Michael Heiser simply because he's dead now and cannot come back and refute what this guy is suggesting he said.
Prayers for you and your family, Jeff. Love you brother.
Will you be reviewing Thoughtful Faith's part 3? I think there is a lot of good content there to address. I'm so sorry about your mom's passing Jeff. Prayers for you and your family!
Jeff I don't agree with you on the stance of theism but you are spot on with Jacob and mormonism
This is good stuff.
You can actually use the whole chapter of isaiah 44 and not just that one verse, in that chapter idolatry and other Gods are two different separated distinct sections. The first section is about no other Gods, no idolatry
Id like to know what Jeffs disagreements with Heiser are in dumbed down terms before i read Heisers book the unseen realm.
Shout out to Missouri! Home state here in south St. Louis! Praise God
❤ Michael Heiser
that fit for a king shirt though!!!🤝
A good question to ask would be: If God was The Only True God in the way Christians mean it, what could He say to demonstrate that?
Because the epistemic system Jacob set up is just one where even if there were only One God, nobody could be able to know because all these verses can just be reinterpreted.
The reaction from the crowd in John 10 shows that what Jesus said was enough.
26But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish-ever; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29[†]My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are [†]one.”
31The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. 32Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” 33The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself God.”
They wanted to kill Him for claiming to be God. That means they knew what He was claiming.
I'm confident Jacob knows too, if he admits it that means he doesn't get to be a god. That's quite a reason to reject God like the Jews did.
How about having Jacob on the show??
What is the Equal Protection bill number being heard in Missouri?
SB 356
@@Gebraltar Thank you!
So is Jeff Durbin admitting that if Heiser was still alive he would bribe him to dispute with the Latter Day Saint?
Also Re: Mike Heiser- he never said anything he was teaching was new- in fact he often said that he’d never had an original idea- he just made his own work & the work of other academic scholars available to the rest of us- “Middle Earth “ as he liked to say 😉
Except that while technically not new or original. Heiser's admissions affirm that while verses like Isa. 43:10 may be legitimately cited against Mormons theology that men can eventually become Gods themselves like the Father.
Trinitarians are wrong to try and cite those Isaiah passages against other religious groups like Jehovah's Witnesses. Since the verses don't rule out the existence of any other elohim or "gods" in heaven.
But only other "Gods", I.e., "Almighty Gods" like YHWH or Jehovah there.
I don’t know why Jeff keeps repeating this “novelty” point as if Heiser actually said so. It’s very off putting. Just focus on the Mormon in debate man.
May your mother rest in peace with Christ!
I think Genesis 3:4-5 also touches the "godliness" of men issue.
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Genesis 3:4-5 KJV
New dogs, old tricks
jeff why dont you debate jacob urself because if your reacting to all of this do a big deabte a couple of your guys or just you with jacob and a couple of his guys or just you settle it instead of being girls and responding to eachother videos.
Jeff you’re being a little unfair to Heiser in this. You said he was acting like he discovered this and that it was new. He has specifically stated that none of what he has popularized is new information. He has stated that he saw himself as a synthesizer. Someone that takes this information and can bring it to a lay audience.
Heiser doesnt agree with Durbin's interpretation of the Isaiah passages concerning God. As Heiser points out from the bible.
Jacob is not claiming that Eastern Orthodox Christians believe in the same things as what he does regarding theosis!! He merely brings it up as a comparison. The whole point is that the Churchbif Jesus Christ believes that it has more truth than what other denominations do. So we can talk about ideas and expound upon them, because we believe that God’s authority has been bestowed on man in the form or prophets and apostles even in our day.
Jeff Durbin now says he’ll get an Eastern Orthodox minister in to dispute Mormonism. That’s like a Pharisee saying he’ll get a Sadducee in to dispute Christianity. So what?
Condolences…
I think hieser presenting the subject as revelatory is valid. Maybe not to someone who went to college but for the average Christian in the context of average western Christian exposition, hearing what he had to say was definitely different than what most are taught. IMHO
Hey Go pack Go! Thanks brotha Daniel for acknowledging the cheese heads, you are correct, the Packers are the best😅
Two things,
No. 1- Citing Heiser's work for the latter day saint, is certainly problematic. Heiser both was and I'd say IS a trinitarian. As stated by Jeff, Heiser's works demonstrate the trinity even in the old testament. Heiser's work also affirms that Yahweh was "species unique" and that He alone is eternal (uncreated) omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. Those Isaiah passages not only talk about one God, but they demonstrate God's uniqueness by showing that the gods of the other nations don't have the power He does. Because those gods are created beings and limited in power. To use Heiser's work to try to bring credibility to something that is completely contrary to what Heiser believed in his theology is definitely an abuse to what he actually said.
No. 2- I've thought for a while now that there would be a bit of a clash between Heiser's works and Apologia. Yes he is a trinitarian and while I would not agree with Jeff's assessment that he was "sloppy" I would say that Heiser was not direct enough in his statements to help prevent people like Jacob from misusing his teachings. I would also say that while there are plenty of basic things Heiser pushes and gives the impression that they are ground breaking work, when in fact many Christians already knew of and taught these things, (ex. Genesis 6 sons of God, daughters of men view). I would encourage Apologia, in particular to look at Heiser's teachings on Psalm 82 and Deuteronomy 32:8-9. I'd love to here a more comprehensive analysis of what you all think of his teachings of the divine council worldview and think it would be great if Dr. White was also involved in that analysis. Heiser is also fairly critical of Calvinism and uses his view of the divine council and man being made in the image of God as being a means for man to have complete autonomous free will. His view of Genesis 1:26-28 is a non trinitarian view and I believe is the foundation for his soteriological views. I'm also not big on Heisers "believing loyalty" doctrine. While certain aspects of it are biblical, its application is contrary, I'd say, to the idea of perseverance of the saints. In a nutshell, Heiser teaches that believing loyalty, is our ability to stay in belief and that is what perseveres us to the end, as opposed to the work of God alone. I'd love to hear Jeff or Dr. White interact with that teaching specifically. If there is even an already existing episode of Apologia or the Dividing Line that deals with some of these things, I'd love to get a link to that.
As a "heads-up" I would also say that there are many Heiser followers out there and they can be very critical of those who have much of anything to say that could possibly be negative towards his work. Simply from calling him "sloppy" could have some negative backlash. I doubt Jeff would be at all intimidated by that, but as a supporter of you all thats my heads up. I think Michael Heiser was an actual Christian, who loved God, and sought to be a blessing to the saints of God in the work that he left behind.
I don't know that anyone from Apologia will actually see or read this post, but would love some interaction on some level of these issues. I think having a comprehensive knowledge of Heiser's work will help us all in our interactions with both fellow believers and unbelievers as well.
This is on-point. I hope Jeff hears your point. I am not even an avid follower but I’ve read his books and even I could understand the supposedly “sloppy” Elohim concept. Also Heisers teachings were not completely new to me but he made some true revelations to me and many who didn’t go through seminary. I will always be grateful for his works and how God used him.
God bless.
Had these pre-mormons (who were Christians) been adequately familiar with Scripture they would have heeded all the various warnings about false prophets, false doctrine, and false signs; they would have promptly tarred and feathered Joseph Smith on the spot...
They did tar and feather him
I like Heiser a lot and i think a ton of his work is helpful for people who hadnt really ever looked at the text and never thought about some of the language differences. I think him being "sloppy" is a result of his seminars being hours long, spanning huge lengths within the bible and discussing topics about the spiritual realm - its his way of teaching to sort of be fluid and having overlaps. taking him out of context is the sloppy part.
likely a googles search pulled the results they wanted and used it for their argument without fully understanding the doctrine.
Praying for you and your family pastor Jeff may the lord comfort you all in his peace that surpasses all understanding and the glorious promise we have of eternal life ❤
I’ve always had a problem understanding Heiser especially the opening chapter of Unseen Realm. I think the word “sloppy” is perfect because he actually can be very confusing.
He's only confusing if you aren't familiar with the Old Testament and the Ancient Near Eastern world view.
@@docfate 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭
@@docfate exactly. It’s clear people can never be satisfied with anything you do. Sloppy is quite a rash criticism for people who actually do not study under Heiser and clearly do not have full context of his teachings or background.
That comment really put me off tbh.
Low key sounds like you're hating on brother Heiser a bit. I think it's great that he brought some of these things up in a big way for better discussions! Give him some credit bro!
He does 32:32
Exactly. I’m trying so hard to listen but I need Jeff to cool it honestly. It’s very annoying. He just caused a Mormon to make him take unnecessary digs at a fellow Christian.
why dont you debate Jacob Jeff?
Jeff Durbin gloats that Jesus Christ said “I and the Father are one” as if that’s more special than the destiny God has for us. Jesus also said; John 17:21-23.
What do you think of hello saints?
I also just asked him that. I think he's dangerous and I want Jeff to call him out on it. He actually sounds like a Mormon and looks like a Mormon and I don't think he pulls a single Mormon into true Biblical Christianity but makes a lot of Mormon friends and a lot of hopeful Mormons that probably one day believes he will convert.
I thank Jeff, he continues to encourage me to read the Bible, Book of Mormon, the D&C, and the pearl of Great Price.
I have begun going back to the LDS church because of his videos, im not the only one, too! 😃
Dont play with your soul please. Lds is false. Come to Jesus. You will never be a god. Run from any church that tells you that you can. It is of satan.
It’s hard to hear someone to say “this is basic Bible school” when us ex-Mormons or even newly born again Christians don’t know this stuff about being species unique. Glad I’m aware of it all now though
Apologia talks about 1 Corinthians 8 teaching that there is but one God but 1 Corinthians 8 says that “TO US there is but one God, the Father”. 1 Corinthians 8 actually teaches that our one God is the Father and our one Lord is Jesus Christ. But 1 Corinthians 8 clearly teaches that there are gods many and doesn’t call them idols.
Jeff Durbin says we are a different species to God. The Bible teaches that we are the same species; Acts 17:28-29.
That is your take. I noticed you posted numerous times recently, but you attack rather than explain yourself. We were made in his image. Using quotes taken without the context is the jist of this video. The LDS church has a very public history as does Christianity. You some how believe God’s word was corrupted and therefore never had control over it. Hardly a resounding endorsement of God is it? Jesus died on the cross only to have nasty humans to distort everything that means.Hardly giving God any credit to sustain much is it?
Just ignore all and now 18 centuries later a man refutes it all! How would you defend J.S. Now as a real prophet? His life style? His grasp of history? His prophesies? What makes real sense to you? Faith and logic are not mutually exclusive. Islam has over a billion followers….does that make it legitimate.
Do you follow blindly or do you have logic to back up all LDS history as reasonable? History and archaeology are found so evident in the Bible. Can anything remotely even show the BOM can explain the known history of the Americas? Where is the logic? Faith is not blind.
@@garywright9715 those are great questions to ask LDS. And you’re right, faith is not blind and John Lennox was very big on this in his apologetics. It’s taking a commitment based on evidence. Being raised LDS, I realized when Jesus delivered me from my depression that he was so much more than just the savior. I started thinking logically, how could this man forgive sins and raise the dead without being some kind of deity. But see being Mormon, when you refer to God, you are referring to the father. I used to defend Mormonism thinking it’s Christian just because they believe in Christ. And by no means was I a devout Mormon but my theology was definitely rooted in LDS core doctrine (God was a man and Jesus is his literal offspring). But the truth is, they’re afraid of these contradictions because they don’t understand the Bible. They use the most difficult translation of the Bible and are huge on self-interpretation. They actually encourage it. When I try to explain the major holes in LDS theology and history to my parents they do the same thing Muslims do. Explain away. They like to use the straw man argument, “where is the word trinity in the Bible,” while fully knowing that’s not how the trinity was formed. And like Mohammad, Joseph Smith had to criticize the Bible in order for his book to make sense. And they love pointing out fulfilled prophecies and even try to twist unfulfilled prophecies. But even then, that doesn’t mean anything. Deuteronomy 13:1-5 tells us that if a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams says something will take place, and it takes place, but says let us worship Gods you do not know do not be deceived for the lord your God is testing you. And that’s exactly what Joseph did. Not a single church father taught anything close to the LDS gods. Nor does the Bible. But the members butcher the Bible to fit their theology. 98% of Mormons have their own interpretation and the other 2% butcher the original text. They simply don’t test prophets because they treat them as if they are infallible. Even though they’re teaching clear heresy. That’s the best way I can explain Mormons.
Where is the Holy Spirit identified as Yahweh?
There is only one omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent being.
The king of the jungle is a cat, but not all cats are the king of the jungle.
I think Jacob is invoking Heiser because of his answer to "none other before me", not because Jacob thinks Heiser believes in multiple Gods of the same species as Jehovah. I think you're sidestepping the real issue, which is, what does the phrase "none other before me" really mean? The scriptures Heiser brought up seem to demonstrate that the phrase left room for other Gods, as that phrase left room for other cities when used in a slightly different situation.
Except Heiser’s work doesn’t allow for other gods that are “species unique”, that’s the entire point of Heiser’s thesis and the very point Durbin is making here. “None before / after me” is referring to species unique deity, not idols or heavenly beings.
@Pistachio-Cat exactly this. In a weird way, fiction is quite a helpful touchstone here - in the works of Tolkien, for example, Eru Illuvatar is the one true God, he is ‘species unique’, but he creates divine beings (or ‘Valar’) which approximate the ‘gods’ of Ancient Greece or Rome. But Illuvatar is the One in whom those heavenly beings live and move and have their beings; no other ‘God’ is Being itself. You see a similar thing in the DC universe, in which the Abrahamic God exists but he creates the gods of myth and legend as subservient entities.
Obviously, those are just examples from human-made fiction, not holy scripture. But they illustrate the point Heiser / Durbin is making: that the biblical God is species unique, he is Being itself, in whom all the ‘gods’ and heavenly creatures live and move and have their being. No other ‘god’ exists like him.
You're free to make that assumption, but it doesn't stand in light of what Heiser himself has said about not agreeing with the Mormons irresponsible use(s) of his materials.
Sorry if this turns into a long comment. If other Christian’s disagree with me, feel free to do so.
When you look at descriptions in the Bible, hyperbole is used. There is no way around that. These hyperboles were not unique to Israel, they were used in surrounding nations as well. However, how we need to see our God, YHWY, is that he is the hyperbole. You can almost look at it as how they describe these other cities in the same manner. Well guess what, YHWY is what you use as hyperbole. He goes out of his way to show this too.
I encourage you to look into the story of Exodus more if you haven’t already. Specifically into the gods of Egypt. The plagues are actually playing to the powers of certain gods of Egypt. If you notice too, these other gods seem to have a minuscule power to do these things at first. YHWY is showing his power over every one of these gods, he puts them all to shame. The later plagues have no response from the Egyptian gods. They all pale in comparison to him in every way. This same thing can be seen with Elijah and him burning the alter, YHWY showing superiority to Baal in a hyperbolic way. Not only throwing water on it, but soaking it with a moat around it.
He is literally the first and the last. He literally knows no other, there is none like YHWY. And guess what, Jesus is the destroyer of gods. That is another thing Heiser teaches. If you look at these Psalm 82 and John 10, people either say they are earthy rulers or other gods (beings created by YHWY). Jesus destroys these gods justly, in both cases. So it was either the rulers or for instance the gods of Egypt or Baal as examples from above.
As you can see, none of this lines up with the LDS interpretations of these verses.
The 2 columns Heiser was discussing was not a True God/True God comparison. Rather a Elohim/True God harmonization of apparent contradictions.
In Psalm 82 Elohim is used for these unjust judges because Elohim in Hebrew can mean judges since judges are supposed to represent the one true G-d who is the only absolute moral judge of the universe
18:21 What you came for.
Thank you 💙💙
Mvp
40 + Mormon was involved in the most serious level’s looking to be free and don’t know how to totally be saved … maybe I can’t I don’t know
One can: what one does is confess jesus as the only God and lord and know that his sacrifice on the cross is enough to save ones self from the pains of outer darkness. 1 john chapter 5 is a beautiful chapter that may offer guidance.
-Christian L
“Before me was no God formed neither shall there be after me.”Isaiah 43:10. God was talking to Israelites who were worshipping idols that they formed out of wood or stone. No real gods are ever “formed”. The Bible clearly teaches the doctrine of the existence of multiple gods and men becoming gods, though we only worship one God, the Father and one Lord, Jesus Christ; Deuteronomy 10:17, Joshua 22:22, Psalms 82:1, Psalms 82:6, Psalms 136:2, Daniel 11:36, Matthew 5:48, 10:34, John 17:22, Acts 17:29, Romans 8:17, 1 Corinthians 8:5,6. 2 Corinthians 3:18, Galatians 4:7, Ephesians 4:13, Philippians 2:5,6, 1 John 3:2, Revelation 3:21.
Heiser wasn't sloppy bro. He was right on point. If anybody misunderstood what he said it's because they have a low IQ. In fact he actually made it very simple to understand what he was saying. He couldn't have broken it down any clearer than if he had drawn pictures with crayons. I'm not really sure what you're looking for here except maybe to bash the man now that he's passed on. Pretty weak approach there Jeff.
The video title “Jeff Durbin dEsTrOyEd by Misrepresentation, Lies, and Logical Fallacy” doesn’t have the same clickbait efficiency.
Jeff Durbin keeps shouting Trinitarianism but that volume doesn’t make the doctrine of the Trinity true.
Well if Heiser believes God is “species unique” then he’s wrong; Acts 17:28-29.
You can really drop the background music. It’s just emotional manipulation. And I’m a Christ follower and a fan of Apologia. 😊
I don’t believe Heiser was sloppy. His own experience in seminary was different than yours. As a lay person who likes to read Heiser and Justen to those who know the history and language, I know this, but I can guarantee you that what Heiser taught is not common knowledge in many evangelical or Protestant churches today.
Other than that, great video!
In order for Jacob to pull his clip he used he, had to go look for it. He is knowingly mis-representing Micheal.
Ok so let’s read John 10:34-36 the way Jeff Durbin does;
“John 10:
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are HEAVENLY BEINGS?
35 If he called them HEAVENLY BEINGS, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?”
The Jeff Durbin translation makes no sense of what Jesus was actually saying.
They change up Michael Heiser all the time , while I disagree with Heiser and the sons of God, but they think Heiser psalm 82 is saying there are multiple gods, not that these were angels and the divine council
I watched just one of Heisers vids and knew immediately where he stood on the topic. He quotes out of total context of a deceased man that cannot refute him on it. Prayers the Mormon does just exactly that. Take the video down apologize and repent of his false religious beliefs and comes to the only Gospel that saves.
21:28 struggling . okay? micheal hieser whats wrong? its not like you use the journal of discourses and king follet discourses of joseph smith going to missionaries people dont complain about that how funny and you are here complaining? 1. misrepresentation. 2. 3. redefinitions.
I love Michael Hieser’s books, but I do agree he definitely could have, and should have been more clear about the irrefutable truth of THE TRINTY! I too was occasionally thrown off tract when reading his books , because it seemed as though he was going down another path, however, I read enough of his stuff to know he was indeed Trinitarian.
My only complaint so far has been Luke misidentifying Katakana as Kanji. Kanji are the chinese characters/symbols (i.e. 学校) and katakana is a writing system that nowadays is primarily used for writing foreign loan words (America - アメリカ). Incidentally you can have a combination of both (American - アメリカ人 - Amerika-jin). Jeff's shirt (ミッキーマウス) transliterated says "Mikkii Mausu", the dash being an extension of the i-vowel and the small ツ makes the k sound a double consonant which basically means you put a phonetic stop there. In musical terms, all consonant-vowel combinations are treated with one value (quarter note for example), and a dash or double consonant gets treated like twice that value instead of a quarter note they would be treated as a half note.
I realize all that is way off topic, but I've been enjoying this and the last video tremendously. Between you guys and Dr. White, I've probably gotten a better understanding of Mormonism and JWs than from anything I ever learned in church or college when the issue comes up. Keep up the good work and God bless.
Omoshiroi
Han is the Chinese writing system and Kanji is the Japanese phrase for Han - "chinese characters", whichs speaks to the cultural transformation. It's very difficult to read any form of Chinese for just knowing Japanese Kanji and vice versa. Just, the way you describe kanji would give the wrong impression - I think.
Also mentioning katakana without the context of hiragana might not mean much to those who don't already know, even saying it's for loan words. English doesn't really do that to expect people to think about it. People might imagine normal Japanese to be mostly katakana just for not thinking what the normal syllabary looks like.
I might want to get the multiple readings of kanji and kana writings, if you were to go into the weeds that much... I don't see a problem with that verbose a comment, since you're already half way there and it'd only make it more helpful. I appreciate your comment!
@GRAYgoose124 The multiple readings issue alone can be a massive headache for learning the language even for native speakers! Even then the rules for when it's the Japanese reading of a character or the Chinese reading of a character isn't always consistent let alone a character having multiple possibilities. Just sort of becomes an issue of having to know what the word is by itself and knowing what character to use. But make sure you use the right one because there are way more homophones in Japanese than in English. Then there's pitch accent instead of stress accent which usually helps to differentiate words but not always. はな (hana) for example means flower or nose and both have the exact same pitch pattern. Of course, the pitch on where you attach the particle, は for example has a different pattern depending on what word it is so that will tip you off, but in isolation, just the written word はな could mean flower, nose, or even the end point of something.
Oh yeah, explaining particles is something we don't worry about in English either.
But yeah, there's a lot more than what I even said in the original comment. I've been studying it off an on for about a year. Fascinating language.
@@mrpsthoughtsonthings Hey, I'm down for Mr. P's long-form, but yeah - you did a great job with your brevity.
I really love traversing homophone kanji then flipping to alternate readings... Wish I knew it so my sapir-whorfed brain grew with those degrees of freedom and that contextual plasticity. Makes me feel like English is so... Boring... Love how word order is just convention and particles are like these logical building blocks... I'm not great at natural languages, but it's fascinating indeed..
@GRAYgoose124 Yup. There's usually a word order of sorts but it does seem like as long as all the particles are where the need to be and as long as the sentence ends with a verb (or adjective since they function like verbs a lot of times too), word order almost doesn't matter. Confusing for English speakers, but I assume it becomes more natural the faster your brain can process the particles and words in the sentence.
There's a book called 80/20 Japanese I bought that does a good job of explaining particle functions. One of the early exercises is basically "here is a list of words, here is the sentence in English, these are the particles to use. Now, write the sentence." It's essentially like using a math equation or putting a puzzle together. Definitely worth checking out. Guy has a website that has tons of free information on it as well that I found useful like when to use は or が as a particle.
Japanese Ammo is a good channel too run by a Japanese girl from Australia. Lot of good beginner stuff and more advanced lessons as well for free.
Heiser was a great man. He took great issue with the "free will" subject but aside from that and a few opinions about women preaching he was AMAZING.
Its so amazing knowing he is sharing in Gods glory with all of the saints. Just an amazing person
Elohim, singular Eloah (Hebrew: God). This term is a plural majesty. "Elohim" is used at times for other deities and majestic beings such as angels, kings, and judges. However, it is usually employed in the Old Testament for the one and only God of Israel, whose personal name was revealed to Moses as YHWH. When referring to Yahweh, Elohim very often is accompanied by the article "ha'" to mean, the "God." Though it is plural in form it is understood in the singular sense. Thus, Elohim is monotheistic in connotation though its grammatical construction appears polytheistic. The Israelites likely borrowed this name from the Canaanites but changed its meaning when they used the term for Yahweh. This is basic "Introduction to the Old Testament" information found in most seminary text books of different Christian faiths. This Mormon apologist simply has not done his homework in advance. I have noticed that most Mormon apologists do not have academic credentials in the disciplines of biblical studies, original languages such as Hebrew, Aramaic, or Koine Greek, biblical theology, church history, Patristics, polemics, apologetics, or even philosophy. Most of them major in communication or some other non-religious program of study. I have noticed this tendency is a severe weakness in their overall LDS apologetics.
Possibly so ...
However, Mormon apologists like Tate and others have nevertheless correctly pointed out though the admissions of scholars like Heiser that the Bible does not really teach a strict Monotheism as most commonly believe today.
But in reality a more relative system of ancient "Monolatrism" or "Monolatry," where though only one unique and genuine Almighty God exist as YHWH worthy of exclusive worship and devotion.
Passages like Isa. 43:10 do not rule out the existence of other "gods" in heaven in a secondary or inferior sense under the Father, such as the angels as "sons of God" and "elohim" at verses like Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7; Psa. 8:5; 97:7; 138:1.
And while these secondary "elohim" may not actually support the Mormon polytheistic concept of the heavenly realm. But, with equal disdain to Trinitarians of course, it does actually provide support for the beliefs of others such as Jehovah's Witnesses.
Who maintain that Christ as "the Son of God" is the firstborn and greatest of the angels as "sons of God" and elohim ("gods").
Thereby making Jesus "a god" and "the only-begotton god" as the first highest one of them, or the "Archangel."
Theosis is derived from the greek word, "God", so the literal definition of theosis is "Being made God". No if there is a more narrow belief unique to Eastern Orthodox theology, then that needs to be clarified. I believe Jacob was referring to the exact definition of theosis, not the eastern orthodox theosis doctrine.
Glad someone noticed lol.
Jeff Durbin says “you shall die like men you unjust judges” but that is a complete fabrication of Jeff Durbin. Psalm 82:6 doesn’t say that at all. Indeed Romans 8:17 tells us that if we suffer with Christ i.e. die also, we might become joint heirs with him. Isn’t Christ also a god who died but rose again. And in so doing we receive of the same glory that the Father and Christ have; John 17:22.
It can be in no way surprising that a Mormon apologist would dig up an evangelical scholar who explains OT exegesis and takes it out of context to prove false LDS theology. #ifItQuacks
Jeff Durbin just wants to proclaim “shame on you” to every Latter Day Saint because he’s a self righteous egotist.
The Eastern Orthodox have a great emphasis on theosis but I know Roman Catholics and Lutherans have similar doctrines about salvation as participation. I'm not sure what other denominations think or teach on the topic.
Lutherans, at least confessional evangelical Lutherans, are monergist. Meaning we don't have free will when it comes to salvation or spiritual matters. Faith is a gift from God. I know this because I am a Lutheran. It sounded like you were implying Lutherans were Arminian which we are not, maybe that's not what you were trying to convey, but if you were I just wanted to offer a respectful correction
@Raunchy Conservative Salavation as participation does not mean that we participate in our own salvation through the power of our will. Rather, it means that upon our death we participate in Christ's divine nature some how. We don't become God but we don't merely sit on a cloud strumming a harp for all eternity either. I believe it's also called the mystical union by some Lutheran theologians.
I absolutely agree that confessional Lutherans are monergistic, although not in the same way Calvinists are. I'm a confessional Lutheran as well. Nice to see another Lutheran out in the wild lol.
@@chemnitzfan654 right on brother!! It’s great to see another confessional Lutheran! we definitely seem to be underrepresented as far as the Christian voices on TH-cam go. Thank you for clarifying, I figured you were talking about something else, I’ll have to do a deep dive on salvation as participation, sounds fascinating and is obviously an area I’m unfamiliar with lol. God bless you brother
@@Possum880 Dr. Jordan Cooper wrote a book on the topic that is helpful. God bless you too!
Mormons Are Christians
Jeff you’re taking a lot of liberty in your interpretation of Heisers words here.
Heiser clearly admits that when interpreted correctly the way the Old Testament people commonly used these words that they aren’t talking about there being no other gods but that they meant that God is incomparable to other gods. That’s a distinctly different way of interpreting the scripture from the way you try to beat Mormons with that scripture in Isaiah 43:10 for example. To say that LDS Members worship a different God than you do because he is before and there where none after like in Isaiah is not the way Heiser interprets that kind of text. According to Heiser the Scriptures are saying that god is incomparable to other gods NOT that there aren’t other True Gods or Heavenly beings.
Mormons can agree with Heisers interpretation here though we wouldn’t go as far as saying god is a unique species because the Bible doesn’t explicitly say that. We believe that God is incomparable and that he is different from us because he is our father and the creator. None of us are the creator or the father of everything like God. Only God is the Master of the universe and if we become perfect gods see psalms 82:6 and mathew 5:48 then we are still not God the father and creator of this universe.
Basically you need to Offer some more grace and room for interpretation of these Scriptures apart from your own selective ridged interpretation which Heiser says shouldn’t even be used the way you use it because that is incorrect in how they used language in those days.
Mormons can therefore believe in the true and only God that the Bible speaks of and also believe there are other Gods and that we can become like god and also believe in the same Jesus Christ the Bible teaches.
So you need to send an apology to All the Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and admit that
Mormons are Christians. Your being extremely offensive when you state otherwise and you are being unchristian sir.
Mormons are absolutely not Christian’s, you clearly don’t know what Mormonism teaches
Mormon doctrine is very similar to what Satan promised
You are the Taylor Swift version of religion. Someone says anything critical of you and you have to write a new "album"
Are you referring to the Mormon or Jeff?
@@Possum880 Jeff.
😂
Having watched both videos. Why don’t these guys stop creating reaction videos and just meet up and debate. Jeff has done several of debates with diverse people. Jacob has done a few himself. Both ought to be open to it right!?
Give the people what they want!
A formal debate!
Jeff Durbin should stop misrepresenting the doctrine of the Bible.