I wouldn’t think this is CPE Bach. It sounds quite “Sturm und Drang.” It might be Early Beethoven, who was turbulent enough to write something like this, But it is too agitato for Haydn, and Mozart would never write something like this. What a wonderful discovery! Now after learning the 50 or so Haydn sonatas, I must investigate CPE.. thank you for sharing!
It was all rather fluid back then. They were all swirling around one another trying to get at this new "center," this new high mark of emotion and logic.
The style is closer to Haydn (and the first Beethoven) than Mozart, who delighted hos brother Johann Christain's Bach, "the Bach of London". We are rediscoving Haydn's sonatas thanks for instance to Alain Planès and many others.We should rediscover thse sonatas as well. Joint programmes would be quite interesting.
Absolutely right!!! In J. S. Bach sons (as well as in Haydn) we see Mozart or Beethoven roots. Mozart received more influence from Johan Christian, indeed more "classical" than his brother , and Beethoven was indeed more influenced by Carl Philipp and his sturmunddranghish style. Without C.Ph.E., we cannot understand Beethoven existence as a genius.
Haydn took a lot from CPE which is clearly evident from this sonata - both composers acknowledged this; but Mozart? Not a single note of this sounds anything like Mozart. Beethoven and Chopin inhabit an entirely different world. To my ears, this is pure, and quite easily recognisable CPE Bach empfindsamer Stil, but you’re quite right that it doesn’t quite sound like music you normally expect from the Classical period. I think this performance played on a modern piano, rather than a harpsichord or clavichord, or even a fortepiano, does also alter its character and make it sound - in part - later than it actually is.
@@elaineblackhurst1509 I see them inhabiting the same worlds - I see an esthetic flowing from CPE to Mozart Beethoven and Chopin- the coloratura similar to Chopin, the drama Beethoven, the lightness of the voicings, Mozart- ty for the reply !
@@Jimyblues A really interesting post - thank you; on reflection, I think it is the inclusion of Mozart rather even than Beethoven or Chopin with which I have something of a problem. Haydn’s early biographer Dies wrote: ‘As soon as Haydn’s musical output became known in print, Bach [ie CPE] noted with pleasure that he could count Haydn amongst his pupils. Afterwards, he paid Haydn the flattering compliment that he was the only one to understand his writings completely, and to know how to make use of them’. I feel that this sonata illustrates the link between CPE and Haydn very well - the fragmentary, motivic development; the shape of the music; the spiky, capricious and often unpredictable style,; and the idea of building musical structures from much smaller cells are common to both composers. There is a direct link from CPE to Haydn, and then to Beethoven later...but *not* really including Mozart at any point as he had a very different compositional technique. CPE’s reflections noted above refer specifically to Haydn alone - with good reason - and not to Mozart, because the links that are very evident in the case of the former, are much less so with the latter. That said, all composers, even into the early 19th century, and including Beethoven were indebted to CPE’s manual on keyboard playing, thee Versuch. We know from Czerny that Beethoven in the early 19th century told him to get hold of a copy of the Versuch and to study it, so the links with Beethoven are clear as well. Regarding voicings, I do feel also that Mozart’s are more advanced, or modern if you like, than those of CPE, and - with one or two notable exceptions such as the Sonata in E flat Hob.XVI:49 - much of Haydn’s pre-London work as well. Additionally, whilst all the composers mentioned were concerned with moving the emotions, I feel that CPE’s very particular Empfindsamkeit aesthetic is essentially about *inner* sensitivity, whereas performer composers like Mozart and Beethoven were both more concerned with *outward* gesture. Hope you find something of interest in this quick reply.
@@elaineblackhurst1509 Mozart’s quote is he is the father, we are the children. He doesn’t mean JS whose music he discovered- I think there’s relation between the Mozart Am sonata, and his many uses of dotted rhythms to good ol’ CPE- but yes even if I already know something, having played Sonatas by both and researching everything, I love hearing shared knowledge, so I totally did !
@@Jimyblues I think the well-known Mozart quote must refer to the Versuch specifically, not to CPE in general. Additionally, the words were not reported until as late as 1832 by Rochlitz; there is therefore some considerable doubt in my mind as to the accuracy and context of what Mozart was actually supposed to have said. If we apply Mozart’s words to the Versuch alone, then given that CPE’s manual is the starting point for modern keyboard playing, and all future manuals on the subject, then Mozart is spot-on. Anything else, and CPE - isolated in his own empfindsamer Stil world in Berlin and then Hamburg - and the father/children business is totally inexplicable. Once again, my issue with linking CPE and Mozart, is quite simply that listening to just any four bars of either composer will be more than enough for any listener to be able to accurately state by whom the music was written. Mozart’s Sonata in a minor (K310) is to my ears is another good example of the gulf in style between the two composers, though I do agree that there are some shared characteristics, inevitable when to contemporary composers are in effect using the shared musical language of the second half of the 18th century (though with very different accents). Following your comments, I will listen again, though I do actually know the sonata very well: the Andante con espressione movement was one of my ABRSM Grade 7 exam pieces many years ago!
@@Herr_Flick_of_ze_Gestapo O yes, o yes, it's much too fast. When you're used to that speed, it sounds ok, but when you hear it the first time at that speed: it's like the player had a train to catch.
awefull instrument. these works are written for clavichord. modern pianos sound way to thick and unrefined. all the finesse and delicacy gets lost in the bombastic characterless shallow noise of a 20th century factory instrument.
Yes. Of course the modern piano has it's merits but for music from let's say 1850 onwards. It's tone colour is to objective and bland for older music. The simple harmonies and melodies of Haydn , Mozart etc. sound childish and folkmusic-like on modern piano.
I'm quite the opposite in that I actively seek out modern pianoforte performances of earlier music like this. If I were to play any of them it would be quite impossible finding an older instrument these days whereas I have a modern piano sitting in my living room.
![[Full Episode] MasterChef Junior Thailand มาสเตอร์เชฟ จูเนียร์ ประเทศไทย Season 3 Episode 3](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/A1XXYbV048k/mqdefault.jpg)
I wouldn’t think this is CPE Bach. It sounds quite “Sturm und Drang.” It might be Early Beethoven, who was turbulent enough to write something like this, But it is too agitato for Haydn, and Mozart would never write something like this. What a wonderful discovery! Now after learning the 50 or so Haydn sonatas, I must investigate CPE.. thank you for sharing!
It was all rather fluid back then. They were all swirling around one another trying to get at this new "center," this new high mark of emotion and logic.
Sturm und Drang is a perfect description for this. Finally found a place to use that term after those history lessons...
Innovative.
Do you play them ? 🎉❤
I love C.P.E.Bach
amazing video!!! 🎹
Intense, passionate and full of contrasts, undoubtedly, this music exerted a decisive influence over the young Beethoven.
The transition between the second and third movement especially! Crazy that he was writing this half a century earlier
I. 0:00
II. 4:31
III. 9:00
Какая изящная и чувственная музыка!
The style is closer to Haydn (and the first Beethoven) than Mozart, who delighted hos brother Johann Christain's Bach, "the Bach of London". We are rediscoving Haydn's sonatas thanks for instance to Alain Planès and many others.We should rediscover thse sonatas as well. Joint programmes would be quite interesting.
“We no longer do as he did, but without him we could do nothing.”
This beginning reminds a Beethoven’s sonata, the opus 10, number 1, in C minor. Beethoven had his sources too.
At the end of his life, he asked his editor to send it scores by CPE Bach rather than to havee them eaten by rats and mice !!!!!
also op 111, that famous variation of the arietta!!!
Absolutely right!!! In J. S. Bach sons (as well as in Haydn) we see Mozart or Beethoven roots. Mozart received more influence from Johan Christian, indeed more "classical" than his brother , and Beethoven was indeed more influenced by Carl Philipp and his sturmunddranghish style. Without C.Ph.E., we cannot understand Beethoven existence as a genius.
I can't believe this is CPE Bach
Still waiting for you know what.
😐
@@ThankYouKiwi go on, get working.
@@cmscorevideos9672 tell that slave
CPE's music is dream like - this interptration is not - listen to Marc-André's CD and you will see straight away. He deserves to be a major composer.
CPE thru Mozart/Beethoven to Chopin
Haydn took a lot from CPE which is clearly evident from this sonata - both composers acknowledged this; but Mozart?
Not a single note of this sounds anything like Mozart.
Beethoven and Chopin inhabit an entirely different world.
To my ears, this is pure, and quite easily recognisable CPE Bach empfindsamer Stil, but you’re quite right that it doesn’t quite sound like music you normally expect from the Classical period.
I think this performance played on a modern piano, rather than a harpsichord or clavichord, or even a fortepiano, does also alter its character and make it sound - in part - later than it actually is.
@@elaineblackhurst1509 I see them inhabiting the same worlds - I see an esthetic flowing from CPE to Mozart Beethoven and Chopin- the coloratura similar to Chopin, the drama Beethoven, the lightness of the voicings, Mozart- ty for the reply !
@@Jimyblues
A really interesting post - thank you; on reflection, I think it is the inclusion of Mozart rather even than Beethoven or Chopin with which I have something of a problem.
Haydn’s early biographer Dies wrote:
‘As soon as Haydn’s musical output became known in print, Bach [ie CPE] noted with pleasure that he could count Haydn amongst his pupils.
Afterwards, he paid Haydn the flattering compliment that he was the only one to understand his writings completely, and to know how to make use of them’.
I feel that this sonata illustrates the link between CPE and Haydn very well - the fragmentary, motivic development; the shape of the music; the spiky, capricious and often unpredictable style,; and the idea of building musical structures from much smaller cells are common to both composers.
There is a direct link from CPE to Haydn, and then to Beethoven later...but *not* really including Mozart at any point as he had a very different compositional technique.
CPE’s reflections noted above refer specifically to Haydn alone - with good reason - and not to Mozart, because the links that are very evident in the case of the former, are much less so with the latter.
That said, all composers, even into the early 19th century, and including Beethoven were indebted to CPE’s manual on keyboard playing, thee Versuch.
We know from Czerny that Beethoven in the early 19th century told him to get hold of a copy of the Versuch and to study it, so the links with Beethoven are clear as well.
Regarding voicings, I do feel also that Mozart’s are more advanced, or modern if you like, than those of CPE, and - with one or two notable exceptions such as the Sonata in E flat Hob.XVI:49 - much of Haydn’s pre-London work as well.
Additionally, whilst all the composers mentioned were concerned with moving the emotions, I feel that CPE’s very particular Empfindsamkeit aesthetic is essentially about *inner* sensitivity, whereas performer composers like Mozart and Beethoven were both more concerned with *outward* gesture.
Hope you find something of interest in this quick reply.
@@elaineblackhurst1509 Mozart’s quote is he is the father, we are the children. He doesn’t mean JS whose music he discovered- I think there’s relation between the Mozart Am sonata, and his many uses of dotted rhythms to good ol’ CPE- but yes even if I already know something, having played Sonatas by both and researching everything, I love hearing shared knowledge, so I totally did !
@@Jimyblues
I think the well-known Mozart quote must refer to the Versuch specifically, not to CPE in general.
Additionally, the words were not reported until as late as 1832 by Rochlitz; there is therefore some considerable doubt in my mind as to the accuracy and context of what Mozart was actually supposed to have said.
If we apply Mozart’s words to the Versuch alone, then given that CPE’s manual is the starting point for modern keyboard playing, and all future manuals on the subject, then Mozart is spot-on.
Anything else, and CPE - isolated in his own empfindsamer Stil world in Berlin and then Hamburg - and the father/children business is totally inexplicable.
Once again, my issue with linking CPE and Mozart, is quite simply that listening to just any four bars of either composer will be more than enough for any listener to be able to accurately state by whom the music was written.
Mozart’s Sonata in a minor (K310) is to my ears is another good example of the gulf in style between the two composers, though I do agree that there are some shared characteristics, inevitable when to contemporary composers are in effect using the shared musical language of the second half of the 18th century (though with very different accents).
Following your comments, I will listen again, though I do actually know the sonata very well: the Andante con espressione movement was one of my ABRSM Grade 7 exam pieces many years ago!
This sounds like a typing exercise. With a little discernment the tone colors and motifs would be interesting. Plus she typed it too fast.
Ridiculously fast, but it's good piece.
no it is not too fast. apparently you are not familiar with clavichord repertoire
@@Herr_Flick_of_ze_Gestapo O yes, o yes, it's much too fast. When you're used to that speed, it sounds ok, but when you hear it the first time at that speed: it's like the player had a train to catch.
I agree, but this is the Sturm und Drang style for keyboard, where everything has to feel like some kind of improvisation
@@Herr_Flick_of_ze_Gestapo If you were familiar with clavichord repertoire, you would not have made that remark.
Beethoven !!!
awefull instrument. these works are written for clavichord. modern pianos sound way to thick and unrefined. all the finesse and delicacy gets lost in the bombastic characterless shallow noise of a 20th century factory instrument.
Amen !
:( I love piano
Yes. Of course the modern piano has it's merits but for music from let's say 1850 onwards. It's tone colour is to objective and bland for older music. The simple harmonies and melodies of Haydn , Mozart etc. sound childish and folkmusic-like on modern piano.
@@christianwouters6764 🤦
I'm quite the opposite in that I actively seek out modern pianoforte performances of earlier music like this. If I were to play any of them it would be quite impossible finding an older instrument these days whereas I have a modern piano sitting in my living room.
bad interpretation
Could you point us to a better one? Possibly one with you performing it?
@@zephyr8