Arc Overhangs make Supports Obsolete!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 พ.ค. 2024
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Arc Overhangs are a new concept developed by Steven McCulloch to reduce the amount of support we need on our 3D prints. It extrudes self-supporting arcs next to each other that allow printing huge horizontal overhangs into free air! How do they work and are they any good?
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Arc Overhang Script
Steven McCulluch: github.com/stmcculloch/arc-ov...
My fork: github.com/CNCKitchen/arc-ove...
Sample G-Code
www.printables.com/model/3367...
Website article
www.cnckitchen.com/blog/arc-overhangs-a-new-way-of-printing-without-supports
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Chapters
00:00 Introduction
01:53 Arc Overhangs
04:01 Slicer Availability
05:53 Quality
07:33 Video sponsor
#3Dprinting #ArcOverhangs
DISCLAIMER: Part of this video was sponsored by Zellerfeld.
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Do you want Arc Overhangs or do you think that Organic Supports and Tree Supports are the future?
Why not have both? They each have their own benefits and drawbacks that make them useful in different situations. Same with conical slicing, for that matter. They’re all really cool though, and will benefit the community.
As with many other ideas, the best implementations often combine the new idea with existing techniques. For warping reduction an anchor pillar could be used at corner points and the next layers on the overhang so as to have a strong enough base for faster print speeds . While not support free, it would drastically reduce the support amount
@@skippy9214 It may be possible to combine the technologies. Using a traditional support that comes up to support the arc overhang. That way if the are being printed will become to heavy. It can be supported by only a few supports instead of what is normally done. I am just spit balling hypothethical ideas
Was just about to write about tree supports and arc overhangs as a combo, that could very well work.
Also, saw you in Safety Third podcast, it was a good episode, hope to see you there more often.
I’m very intrigued about soluble supports (if i can get a system to use them!). I especially wonder if you can essentially recrystallize the dissolved supports back into filament?
For now though stuff like this and organic supports will be nice.
I think a combination of arc overhangs and tiny tower supports would solve the warping problem for external overhangs. Just a tiny cylindrical "tower" support on one or two points to prevent the arc overhand from warping upwards by anchoring the flexible edges to the build plate.
This!
Was just thinking the same thing as I was watching this. Best of both world so to speak. Fingers crossed this gets implemented into slicers in the future.
Great minds think alike. Thought the exact same thing while watching the video. Just put a cylindrical tower on each corner that would be prone to warping with 0 clearance to the print, similar to SLS supports. You should no longer have any warping with that. Then those supports can be cut off using flush cutters and its a perfect print.
and maybe like mini towers near the center of the arcs to that way it avoids the nips
If that's not quite enough support/anchoring, SLA style tree supports probably have some tech worth adapting.
The other thing that occurs to me is that the warping seems to be worst at the edges where the arcs get small and crowded. If you add traditional supports where the arcs go below a certain radius/line count maybe you could finish it off with a concentric pattern or something? Depending on implementation that could get you a bit of a draft shield for your trouble.
I'm really excited to see where this goes. I'd be interested in seeing a combination of Arc Overhangs with "Tree" supports. The tree support would hopefully reduce warping, and ultimately, the combination of these two would not eliminate, but at least reduce support material usage.
I was going to come and recommend the same thing. A tree would work, but any sufficient wide post would have the same strength. You could do a thin pillar of arcs until you're a few layers from the proper arc overhang and then expand it gradually into a wide but hollow arc cone, kind of like a bugle.i think that would print faster until you got closer to the overhang.
Lightning Infill and Conical Slicing as well.
That's really interesting as the meshes would be identical to the supports that sla/sls printers use as they get planes for free, but need to support them with tree supports.
Oh man, an organic support at every major arc origin could be killer. additionally maybe a "draft shield" to support the edge of the overhang when completed?
i can see that, like it having to tie down the edges of the overhang instead of the whole surface
This is one of those “holy crap why didn’t I think of that!” moments. One of the signs of genius level creativity on the part of the inventor.
Thank you!! Arc overhangs are just the beginning, I think there are so many improvements that can still be made here. This is still early in the 'proof of concept' phase. I encourage everyone to expand on this idea to make overhangs print more reliably, and with better quality.
- Steven
If the overhang goes into 'nothingness' (i.e. no risk of colliding with parts) as in the example, it might just be a good idea to just print a single (or a few) oversized arcs that span past the surface of the actual ceiling that needs the 'support'.
This way, all those tiny little arcs are not required, which probably makes it print much cleaner, faster and more efficiently. Especially since most of the wobble happens when starting/ending arcs, thus minimizing the amount of arcs is key. The only drawback would be that you need to trim away excess after printing (similar to removing a brim).
I was thinking that once the arcs are small enough, you could probably bridge between them with straight segments no problem.
@@darrennew8211 this
That could be an added feature, whether to stay within confines or go outside the part perimeter.
100% agree on reducing the occurrence of micro-arcs. They are the main cause of the major quality issues. I think the best thing to try would be simply ignoring any arcs that consist of only 1 or 2 arcs. I don't think they are required, and the outer perimeter will connect well enough without them.
- Steven
I would think the smaller arcs in the example could just simply be done with conventional filling patterns.
If a combination of arc overhangs and conical slicing were to be made into a new piece of slicing software, I feel like that would be the future of 3D printing, right there.
Awesome work on this video!
I can see the next must have being super long insulated nozzles to leave clearance for 3D tool paths.
Why isn’t there a program that already does it. I would do it my self but focus on other projects atm👿
Wow
I really hope this comes to a slicer at some point. I have so many designs that would benefit from 90 degree overhang first layer like this.
Respect for the the creator of this. Keep it up!
Thank you! I hope this makes its way into all the major slicers. I believe that the 3D printing community will take this idea as far as it can go!
- Steven
@@3DQueThis is cool! Imagine a meter wide printer printing a meter wide overhang.. woah
@@DoYouSeeBananaManTH #lifegoals
To avoid warping you could try printing the second layer also very slowly to allow it to cool the same way the circles did. And only speed up after 2 or 3 layers in that region. It may also help doing the interior first and the exterior last so the contractions get spread over more material.
I will definitely try this. I want to explore any way to reduce warping that doesn't involve additional support structures, and I think this is the way to go!
- Steven
Except we are trying to save time
@@BlueMacGyver printing one overhanging layer slowly is still much faster than printing dozens or hundreds of support layers quickly
@@adora_was_taken That is a fact that changes with the size of the overhang, so maybe in a lot of cases you're right, but not all.
My first thought exactly
Maybe it could also be helpful to use it as a support base. So you prevent the warping by still using supports, but not from the bottom, but only a few layers before the support is needed.
Removing it from the body of the print would be a bitch though. I guess you could print a separate tower to print them from, but at that point, I'm not sure how much time/material you'd be saving.
@@hellterminator No it wouldn't. It would be the same as any other type of support, just without the massing block undeneath.
exactly my thought. would also allow to not have the weird arcs in the actual print.
My thoughts exactly
That was my first thought, too :) Get the best of both worlds when the surface quality is important.
I also wonder if it would work with triangles instead of arcs, since that would make for a better surface quality and possibly an easier fit.
With refinement and clever application of subsequent layers I think this could change the capability of fdm in revolutionary way. Thanks for giving this concept the attention it deserves!
100% agree that clever changes to the subsequent layers could have the potential to reduce warping.
- Steven
This is why I love open-source and free software. Because everyone can contribute to it. You never know what one person can come up with!
I actually saw Steven's video earlier today and I hoped someone popular would bring the subject to the table. Well I never would have guessed it would have been this quick.
PLEASE keep us updated on this, this is a game changer for me as a prop maker. Sometimes i am forced to waste as much as 300g of filament in just support materials.
As some people already presented ideas to prevent warping: maybe it's possible to print some special texture on the first arc overhang layer to reinforce them before going for a full layer that pumps a lot of heat into it (like some tinfoil that has honeycombstructure for stability). Or a combination of both, a texture on top for reinforcement and a lot of cooling. Or just add a single line all around the whole part (isn't there a windshield option in Cura that protects the print from wind? so like that, just in the silhouette of the overhang underneath it). The edge might be cleaner, it should be easy to remove and you don't waste much material.
Stefan I only recently started 3D printing I haven’t learned 3D cad yet but you have helped me understand printing in a fun way I also would love to thank everyone who has been supporting in this community for teaching me more about my new found hobby!❤❤❤
I think that method could be more useful if we use that arc as small supports. Start to print that arc few layers below overhang an then print it as normal support to remove. It could drastically reduce waste of material and we should get better print quality. Anyway that's a great concept overall and something innovative for sure.
With carful part design, these could be awesome. Love these videos!
Yes! I knew you would be interested in this :D One step closer to support-less printing.
@@rileyneufeld7001 Yes!
Super exciting for complex parts!
@@CNCKitchen Indeed!
LOVE this concept. I think it would be tremendous to see it implemented into slicers directly!
I think printing linear stiffeners few next layers in radial direction to arcs will significantly reduce warping.
Thank you, Stephan for showing us such cutting edge things of 3D-printing world!
Sounds like something that would instead induce even more warping, as with everything you put on the top, it cooling will pull the whole thing inwards. However I bet we can go just a slight bit over 90 degrees with the arcs, creating a downwards bending base, which then can be countered with a few layers of tactically laid down structure over it, gradually evening out the nonplanar shape. Thinking of pre-stressed rebar here, this would likely result in a surprisingly rigid support platform for the actual model. Lots of unknown factors to account for tho, I guess it would need a lot of fine tuning for every type of filament, machine and probably even various ambient temperatures. But even then it could save a lot of material in the long run, so yeah, clearly something that deserves attention.
I think that printing infill first on the arc support layer might improve the warping behaviour.
Grid infill might "stabilize" the arc layer a bit, and the perimeter might pull less on the support layer.
My second idea would be small "arc support pillars" to keep the outsides of the arc layer from pulling. Sure you then add support again but it would me a tiny bit compared to normal supports.
Videos like these get me excited about 3D printing all over again. Keep up the incredible content!
you could just use a very thin support strip around the perimeter to hold the overlap steady and hold it down for the next layers
Yes and you could then work inwards from the support strip rather than outwards from the first tiny arc.
From just watching this vid, this looks like it would work just fine for overhangs that don't go out very far. I could imagine an implemetation where you could set something like horizontal overhangs < 5mm edge distance from previous layer in arc overhangs, and anything beyond with conventional support.
Of course, the practical distance would have to be investigated and set per machine.
With PrusaSlicer's upcoming organic supports and with conical slicing and arc overhangs on the horizon, the future of what is deemed 'printable' looks quite bright.
Wow! This is amazing. I'd not seen this before. Thank you for bringing it to widescale attention Stefan. I can't believe you got through this video without saying the word "fractal".
A slicer could add a little bit of support on the edges of large overhangs to help with the warpage.
WOAH DUDE! I've been wanting something like this for ages! Imagine saving supports, or having a floating brim! This is so wild, I want to use this so badly.
Awesome. IMO supports are well overdue for a new approach. This is likely just the beginning. I think the crystal grain analogy is really apt, and makes me think there might be a more efficient pattern out there besides arcs. It might also lead to better tool paths for printing aggressive overhangs, where support was maybe not needed but part quality suffered.
some supports would probably still be required for best quality, but instead of a massive waste they are now they could be anchor supports that keep the part from excessive warping
Yes! I think this algorithm can not just be used on 90 degree overhangs, but really steep overhangs in the range of 70-90 degrees.
- Steven
I am just getting back into 3D printing after years away. You're the only person who I see really pushing the limits of this hobby and constantly doing new things. I wonder how other channels stay motivated doing the same thing for 8+ years. Your channel feels like there is always something new and exciting to discover.
Brilliant!
Essentially bridges (which always amaze me that they work so well) that return to the beginning support structure.
Looking forward to Bambu incorporating it.
I'd be interested in seeing if the arc overhangs could be used to 'hold' a more traditional support so you use less material but have a little bit of support that can be removed after printing
D and
You could have a material setting that compensates for the warp by slight down travel as the arcs move away from the center. As a matter of fact. I think one might be presently surprised at how much down travel would be possible during an arc due to the support strength of the previous arcs. Maybe new geometries open up with this technique. But the algorithm to take down travel into account would be very difficult indeed and possibly even unsolvable in a slicer.
This is amazing! Even as a casual 3D printer, I cannot wait to see this method in common slicing software like prusa. This could save me so much time and money in supports during my printing, and reduce the headache of designing parts around the limitations of overhangs.
Thanks Stefan for showing up this very interesting approach to print without overhangs
This is great. I think the two main issues to address would be:
1. Outside perimeter being cleaner
2. The clear up-down wobble when joining the arcs
1.instead of an arc the lines should just follow the geometry of the edge of the part, and 2. there could be just a support just on the perimeter that is in the air and not all the volume below the "bridges"
@@alf3071 1. How would that be possible?
Arcs are the only way to grow out from a single point.
Every other shape (like the shape of the edge of the part) can't grow out from a single point (or line).
@@Jehty21 it doesn't have to grow from a single point, it can grow line by line parallel to the part edges
@@alf3071 that was addressed in the video at 2:40
@@Jehty21 Not that, I'm saying to print with the same technique that is used for the arcs but with straight lines, the example shown was just using regular slicing, if it works with arcs there's no reason it wouldn't work with straight lines
Hey Stefan, I had the idea to try using the stall guard feature of tmc2209 drivers to create a sensorless accelerometer for input shaping. If I read the data sheet correctly I think there are enough data points given by the stall guard sensor but the coding is way over my head still. I made a post on the Klipper forum a few months ago asking about it but no one seemed interested.
This is so awesome and innovative. I love having a hobby with such an active and enthusiastic community!
I've been doing this inadvertently for past 12 years every single time the print started shifting on the printing bed. LOL, amazing work with the software and it's good to see there is a practical use for this phenomenon
For the warping it would make sense to print a single support tower, which glues the outstanding end to the build plate. The concept in itself looks very cool!
was gonna suggest this. instead of a massive support under everything, a tower at 5%-10% of the size could provide enough to make it feasible.
So what ever happened to this because i don't see any slicers adding it, not even orca and that added scarf seams after about 20 minutes
I hope we get slicer implementation, because I can already see uses for this where the quality and that slight warping wouldn't bother me at all. Super awesome, and massive ups to the creator!
I hope this gets further refined and incorporated into common slicers. Looks like a good way forward!
12 months and counting....
Wow that is incredible, the limits are constantly being pushed further and it's amazing to see
I was waiting for exactly this for months! THANKS soooo much! Just an awesome video !
What i find interesting about this is that it means we may find ourselves in a future where most 3d printed overhangs have arc patterns on the bottom, which i find such a neat example of function deciding form.
Imagine 30 years in the future someone makes an engineerguy-style video pointing out these arc patterns, explaining why this happens, and the history behind the innovation!
Great idea. And as others get ahold of it and adapt it, I can easily see it leading to even better methods for FDM to create viable overhang without supports, or even with fewer supports. This si such a good example of creativity and engineering working hand-in-hand.
This is very cool work by Steven! Thanks for sharing.
More interestingly - your sponsor ad is actually something I havent skipped. I wish more youtubers chose ad content like this which has high value to some!
Thanks for sharing this, Stephan! This is an incredible, very simple solution which is a huge leap of advancement. Like others have said, I think a tiny tower at a strategic geometry pattern will help a lot; very exciting.
Incredible. Excited to see this in a slicer asap
I appreciate your work to help insure this is in the public domain. If we are going thrive as a society we all need to work together and share knowledge.
Glad you saw this! what a game changer to be in a slicer.. I tweeted ultimaker as soon as I saw this!
when I did a lot of 3D printing I exploited this property accidentally when I realized I could print very steep overhangs by covering the surface of the object with surface of spherical bumps. As the print-head comes into the overhang it gets there in little increments and each layer builds on the next. Its awesome to see this method doing basically a full horizontal overhang!
This is super cool! I am very interested to see how this concept continues to develop. I agree w/ others that a combination of arc support + tactical cylinder/tree reinforcements will likely solve the warping issue completely.
Intriguing. I look forward to it being perfected and made consumer ready.
Just amazing, thanks I've never heard of this type of printing.
Neat concept, appreciate learning about it. Thank you Stefan!
Oh wow this is the kind of ingenuity 3d printing needs. So simple but brilliant!
Wow, this is very cool, the nozzle constantly pulls the thread not only forward but also int the steering direstion (towards the center) and this helps stick better and i think gives better cooling opportunity for the just printed filament.
Wow, thats really great. Also some people already told that you can use small towers to prevent warping (wich I also came up with immediately at that moment).
But more than that, you can use this method to not the print the part bottom surface itself, but rather use it as so called floor support. I always use floor supports with regular supports, and that makes bottom surfaces on parts really good.
Can't wait until this feature will be added to cura
This is super tight. Even in something as hardware based like 3D printing, software like slicer improvements or the like can make such a noticeable difference
This is amazing -- thank for sharing, Stefan!
Sehr gut!
Looks very promising, thank you for showcasing technology and techniques on the bleeding edge.
Thank you for the great video, going to give the script a try.
This is by far one of the most interesting 3d printing video I watch in a long time.
Wow.... I really want to try this out myself. This method seems very promising and would definitely reduce the hectic time of wasting so much plastic every time I go printing out parts with supports which often wastes so much of my filament.
So awesome! This is one of the coolest developments in FDM GCode in recent years.
I always love to see innovation in just about any context
Awesome. Always amazing how much further we can push things with software changes alone.
i love how ur channel is fully dedicated to CNC development.
Such a genius idea, cannot wait to see it implemented into slicers.
Wow! We need this ASAP!
This could lead to MASSIVE savings! With this we could have hollow prints with flat top surfaces with no holes. We could make supports up in the air just before the spot where they are needed! Or maybe have models that don't need any support because all their overhangs are printed with arcs!
I love this! I'm noticing a lot of warping on the edges, though, likely due to the ambient heat of the nozzle causing curling. I wonder if that could be fixed by using arcs for the large areas, but switching to bridging at the hard edges... It would look cleaner from the side too.
Cool stuff. You may compensate the warping by reducing z when more away from the fixation (let overhang hang down) and then raise layer by layer such that finally it becomes level.
So many uses for this! Wow this is great
Cool! I hope to see more things like this sometime in the future!
Nice! Would save a bunch in material for sure!!! Thanks for sharing!
Ok, I'm sold. I want this implemented in Prusaslicer right now.
This is indeed exciting. I feel like at 90degree angle this might still be limited, but this kind of technique should help tremendously at angles such as 80 where the arcs won't extend so far from the previous layer that the weight becomes a problem.
This is very very exciting, definitely gonna keep an eye on this concept!
Way cool, if we can figure out away to stop the cooling deformation that might be the ticket. Maybe only one or two supports at the far end of a large overhang well hold it square and prevent it from shrinking/warping
Awesome idea & thanks for the information!
It's a really cool idea. The basic idea being how a algorithm can fill any form with a series of circles or arcs, I think. I can't wait for slicers to have this as an easy to use feature, so we can print models that have some areas with support structure and some areas that use the arcs.
What a time to be alive, that huge techniques like this are coming out in real time.
You always have such fascinating videos keep up the amazing work I always look forward to seeing what you come up with next
This is a revolution in 3d printing. Thanks for sharing.
I’m so excited about the new innovations in printing.
Extremely inserting !! Hope to see this Arc algorithm in our slicers soon...
This type of content is why I love this channel!
hey stefan! thanks for showing this off, dont know if you have the lastest version but instead of typing it into a scipt there is a small little ui now
This might be useful for small details on a print, it gets limited when printing large horizontal overhang because of the warping you mentioned. As always in engineering, the best solution is a combination of differents concepts.
This is exciting, I also see a potential fix for the warping with the use of a single pin support at the edge printed similarly to the pin support challenge from full control, however this may result in the need of having print head clearances.
Greetings Stefan. It's a really good idea that helps us to economy of material for printing. As with all new emerging techniques, there are drawbacks that will be overcome over time. I think it will be very useful in the future.
Wow, impressive ideas
Thanks for sharing the word 😀 🙏
Wow thanks I've just vitnessed an example of how technology is developing and make one more little step on a way to become impossibly complex
This reminds me very much of how edgecam codes waveform milling. It has similar requirements to reduce tool wear and tool overload. Will make a huge difference when 3D print algorithms are as optimised as CNC machining has been over the years.
wow! love this particular innovation. Very clever
I am realy exited for the Arc Overhangs!
The idea is just brilliant!
There is a cool trick for the models with overhangs I saw on some youtube channel that helps reducing supports substantially. IT works the best for tall arc-like structures. You just need to model 0.4 layer of material just below an overhang. It will print more or less OK thanks to bridging. Build short supports from the bridge to ensure a good quality of overhang. Thin bridge and the short supports are then removed quite easily.
This is so simple in concept it's shocking that no one thought of this sooner