Well that's a shame, you cut off the rest of the speech. It ended on a higher note that went like this: "...you can't bring your hobbies into work, okay. . . . Except on Star Trek holidays." "There are no Star Trek holidays" "Stick around long enough and we'll make one"
Love that he said "Cardassian" - this being in the early 2000s, that meant he didn't just grow up watching the Original, he must've seen either TNG or DS9, just a few years prior to the events of The West Wing.
But she also calls the Star Trek franchise the "Star Fleet series" which no one does. And Josh talks about listing your "favorite galaxies" when for all intent and purpose all of Star Trek takes place in the same galaxy. Whoever wrote this dialogue probably just googled "Star Trek races" and plugged them in because no fan would ever talk about Star Trek this way.
Janice: Well Josh, I seem to remember the Steam Pipe Trunk Distribution Venue of the Assistant White House Counsel's office plastered with Gilbert & Sullivan posters and nobody having an issue with it. I also seem to remember an LA Lakers pendant and a Muhammad Ali poster in the White House Deputy Communications Director's office, and an actual living goldfish in the White House Press Secretary's office, and you come to me about hobbies in the work place. In any case, I'm appealing this decision to Stacy. Not chess, Poker. How far do you want to take this, Josh? If you don't mind terribly, I have work to do.
I remember Josh wearing fishing pants after sleeping in his office smelling of B.O. and taking a meeting while still slightly drunk. He's a professional, dammit!
There definitely are Star Trek holidays. Or at least one; April 5 is First Contact Day in celebration of the fact that the first contact between humans and aliens in the Star Trek universe occurs on April 5th, 2063 in Bozeman, Montana, USA, with the Vulcans.
What I like the most about the West Wing is also what I like the most about Star Trek. Everyone is so professional in both shows. They love what they are doing and they do it well. They have a sense if awe towards their responsibilities and a great deal if respect for the other professionals working alongside them. In both shows, you sometimes have to force people to take a break because they are working too hard. I find it inspiring.
Also, the characters in both series are always striving to do the right thing. Even when faced with a complex dilemma, they think it out and do what they believe is right rather than what benefits them.
For 15 Years I was an “Officer of the Crown”, employed by the Parliament and the Government of the Commonwealth of Australia, attached to the Australian Department of Defence, embedded into the Australian Military, chiefly although not exclusively the Australian Army, and on many days I brought My Hobby into work and not only was My Hobby Applauded, but I was granted Paid Leave on numerous occasions, to pursue My Hobby with vigour.
Josh, while entirely within his rights for the position he held in the administration, was simply wrong here. That Gish-Gallop he did was not just trite it also showed he wasn't actually a fan based on how many things he got wrong. Regardless of that, it's entirely reasonable to say "This is a professional environment so leave your fandoms at home", but he took the time and effort to deliberately humiliate an employee by associating them with the least professional aspects of the fandom. Josh is and always has been cruel. He delights in humiliating people. I enjoyed watching the show but if I knew Josh in real life I wouldn't be friends with him.
You're all forgetting that in the SAME episode Sam takes down a baseball pennant from his wall as he packs to leave(!). Substitute anything Josh said about the obsessiveness of Star Trek fans and how they spend their time and replace it with hypotheticals about team sports and the whole monologue is filled with hypocrisy. (That said I'm a huge WW fan..but this speech pissed me off)
I felt like this segment was one of the more hypocritical on the West Wing. Toby has spend entire episodes complaining about the pitching in a baseball game. An episode just one or two distant from this one had a subplot concerning Sam's Lakers banner that he hung in his office. Nowhere are these displays of sports fandom treated as anything but normal, despite the fact that we see more obsession from those scenes than we ever see from this Trek fan.
Josh Hitch You totally right. Why is it okay that sport events are much better then a TV series? You often hear them telling stories on sports events.... that huge on base ball play... that home run etc...sport fetishism
Except that Bartlett, Toby and various others have been seen at work wearing college sweatshirts, ballcaps, jackets, etc. Maybe that was on a weekend? Sure. Okay, but far more obvious and glaring than a small lapel pin. For all his excellent dialogue skills, Sorkin was kinda harsh on "fans," (especially those on the internet) and used Josh on more than one occasion to speak down to them.
Personally think star track and star war are for losers having a sport fan flag is different then a pin it brings attention too that person at the end of the day Josh is her boss if it bothers her that much she can quit life is not fair
It’s so weird for Josh to stretch out a conversation about a button for more than one scene. She wasn’t even that weird about it to begin with, trust me I’ve seen worse from fans of fiction that don’t know the difference from the show and reality.
That’s the part that gets me. She wasn’t wearing a t-shirt with Kirk’s face on it. We don’t have any indication that she was bothering anyone working by talking about it (and if she and someone else were on break, then they can talk about whatever they please). She just wore a pin. And somehow that makes her obsessed.
@@animeotaku307 part of working for the white house is that you're expected to put down your personal identity for the good of the team. that's why it's called public service.
The lady who played Janice, the Star Trek lady was on Big Love with Bill Paxton. Everybody on that show is famous. The President’s Daughter stars in The Handmaid’s Tale. The Star Trek lady played a nosy neighbor who couldn’t get pregnant and lived across from the 3 polygamous families. Terrific show.
@@douglashenry6996 August 24, 1814, April 12, 1861, December 7, 1941, August 6 and 9, 1945, August 2, 1964, September 11, 2001, Jan. 6, 2021. May not be First Contact Day, these and others fit the second part.
Technically, she's working in his department, which he can set and/or enforce policy, including dress and appearance consistent with professionalism. The flipside of that coin is, decorative accouterments that are tasteful, not excessive, and not presenting a safety issue are not considered to be detractive from said professional appearance. Also, he goes into the whole "list your X" as the difference between fandom and fetish. As has been pointed out, "Fantasy Leagues. It's like D&D, for jocks." Fans of more "mainstream" things like sports can definitely compete with, say, Sci-Fi nerds and our ability to list off episodes or quotes.
Not really. The whole speech ofbhisnis condescending and comes off as him using terms he's heard before and just retained. And remember, everyone in these shows brings up sports all the time. Josh Lyman is just a dick to his subordinates because he can.
@@FaxModem1 In particular when he talks about your "favorite galaxies." Any Star Trek fan would know that Star Trek essentially takes place entirely in the Milky Way.
You missed the best part when joss says "except on star trek hollidays" and she says "there isn't any" and joss goes "work harder and we will make one up"
@@briscoejr1 I approve of either suggestion. But September 8th would hold more meaning, as it was the first aired episode of Star Trek. April 5th is the day we make (fictional) first contact with an alien race. Who knows, if any of us are still around in 41 years, 2 months and 6 days... maybe we do make first contact :P
Personally, I don't think that having a fetish. It's just being a big and knowledgeable fan. Does someone who can name who played in every World Series have a fetish or are they just an enthusiastic fan? It annoys me that a series as intelligently written as "The West Wing" is so quick to mock and derogate people for having a pastime. While wearing a "Star Trek" communicator into the White House might be a bit much, his personal comments are really uncalled for. I'm disappointed frankly.
@Minderrt There's a difference between having something in your office, where people expect to see items of a personal nature, and having something visible and on your person at all times, walking around for anyone to see. It's absolutely inappropriate for Sam to wear a baseball cap, or for Toby to have a Yankees tie. However, if Toby has a Yankees mug in his office, no one would care. Or maybe they just didn't really put that much thought into it, and we're all overanalyzing. That's my pick ^^
And don't forget the Episode where President Bartlet MADE C.J wear a Notre Dame cap for an ENTIRE episode simply because she mocked Notre Dame. This argument stems from Sorkin getting into an online debate and using his position and power to punch down on the little guys. A big name creator and director sticking it to the internet chat rooms...real mature of him.
The single biggest issue I have with this is that it actually misrepresentations StarTrek. It's like the scene was written by someone who has read up but never watched it. The Show is about a brighter future and trying to set the higher standard. They may not do that so well in TOS, but in every series since, they go out of their way to make it clear about the higher moral and social standard of living they strive for. And the thing thing can be said of the West Wing. Setting the higher standard. That is what they should have talked about
i'm not sure how the West Wing can do this to Star Trek. after all, the West Wing IS Star Trek. (bunch of amazing young do-gooders set out to save the galaxy (country) under the leadership of a demanding yet nurturing leader)
+pac401 i don't think so. if you haven't seen Star Trek, you might not understand the comparison. Bartlet is a lot like Jean-Luc Picard from Star Trek: The Next Generation. Both the West Wing and Star Trek are set in these idealist fantasies. Everyone on the team is always right, and they always triumph over whoever else is out there. Both involve saving the country/galaxy. The tone of Star Trek and the tone of the West Wing are quite similar. For Sorkin not to realize that is a little short-sighted, in my opinion.
+Brian Simontacchi Ah, but in the West Wing they are not always right. That was the beauty of the show. The struggle of each character about what was right and wrong. Some of the best scenes were the heated arguments about policy.
+pac401 even with the Shareef thing, they made it seem as though Bartlet had no choice, as if he was right to be wrong. for the most part, the show made the crew out to be on the side of good, fighting for good. i'm not trying to get specific, but the Dead Poets Society feel works for both West Wing and Star Trek. that's all i'm saying.
JONES : I was just noticing your Vulcan IDIC, Mister Spock. Is it a reminder that, as a Vulcan, you can mind-link with the Medusans far better than I could? KIRK: Well, I doubt that Mister Spock would don the most revered of all Vulcan symbols merely to annoy you, Doctor Jones. SPOCK: As a matter of fact, I wear it this evening to honour you, Doctor. MIRANDA: Indeed?
Let's list our top 10 favorite episodes of West Wing. Let's list our top 10 least favorite episodes of West Wing. Let's talk about our favorite characters. Let's talk about which characters we would most like to see get together with other characters. Way to beat up your fanbase, you hypocrites. A very strange moment in the greatest show ever made, that's for sure.
Still, true. We have become a very fetishistic society - This series was done over 15 years ago and (who'd have guessed?) we consider the lists mentioned by Josh valid journalistic pieces, video game companies get voted as the worst world wide every year beyond the military industrial complex, polluters, the medical-insurance combine or Wall Street, and icon based franchises have taken over the movie releases for the next few years at least -not based on quality of the product but on the weight of the fan base. So yeah, right of the money. Good on them for not pandering to the audience.
@BjoernarEricSven Right. Which is what he's spoofing here. Because what he's actually talking about is a make-believe TV show where the actors never left a set in the middle of LA or wherever they were and the words were written by TV writers. They made a great. classic show, but getting one's tricorder in a twist over minutiae like this misses the actual point of what Sorkin's saying. And underlines it, at the same time. So, really, well done.
@mecotterill Not just any jury; it was an alternate juror for the Whitewater trial in Arkansas--and as I recall, the actress here looks just a little like the notorious juror, who was eventually dismissed from the panel for speaking to the media, violating the judge's gag order.
I had never thought much about this small subplot until I rewatched the episode recently. I understand that it was intended as a small humorous C level story line, that a significant number of people see Star Trek fans as obsessive and fanatical, but Josh's directive really is oppressive. How would Josh feel if the President issued a memo saying no more Stars of David could be worn in the White House. It really is closer to the same situation, than it appears at first glance. Both are symbols of a personal philosophical position. Janice Trumble, the character wearing the Star Trek pin, didn't display any of the "fetish" like behavior that Josh attributed to Star Trek fans. If she had, he would have been perfectly justified in saying you can't bring your hobbies to work. She wore a pin, Josh unfairly attached the crazy behavior to that pin.
They cut some of her best lines, pointing out that reliving games, displaying pennants, wearing jerseys, and the like is the same, if not MORE obsessive, than her fandom.
A Star Trek pin shouldn't be compared to a Star of David. One is an entity that symbolizes the absolute best of humanity, their undying spirit to stand together in the face of adversity, the other is a symbol of mystical notions that two triangles put together embody the spiritual energy of creation, all the while acting as a guide for people to do silly things. If anything, a Star of David can quite reasonably be viewed as a Zionist symbol, and therefore political, and even treasonous.
augh. the video doesn't have the rest of what josh was saying. actually, as i remember it, his explanation to janice is one of the less assholic things he's done on the show. people watching this should see the whole exchange.
There were different quadrants. The alpha- where earth is. Delta- where Voyager is thrown into. And the Gamma quadrant- on the other side of the wormhole.
The world would be a better place if more Trekkies watched the West Wing. Her "You don't like Trek so you must not be very smart" attitude... gah. Lighten up, lady.
Favorite galaxies????? Theres only 1 galaxy explored in the star trek universe for the vast majority of the show. I think theres a few episodes where a crew is shifted somehow to a totally different galaxy.
Its all about fair and balanced application of policy. If there is a policy where no Fan affilitation of any kind is allowed in the whitehouse (eg. No sports fan, no music fan, no TV/movie fan) then this is perfectly acceptable. I personally do not understand why there would be that rule, but there are lots of things I dont understand. If however others are allowed to wear Baseball team pins, or Jimmi Hendrix pins then this is totally out of line, and totally out of character for the show
Imagine being such a shit boss that you complain about a pin because "You can't bring your hobbies into work", but one of your earliest scenes involved bringing your hangover followed by your fishing waders into work.
@BjoernarEricSven Amazing. You just did the kind of pointless fanboy obsessing the scene was talking about. So, he said galaxies. I love Star Trek, but big whoop.
"Favourite galaxies"? Actually, 'Star Trek' takes place in THIS galaxy. I absolutely love 'The West Wing'. But if they sniff at something, they should at least get the details right.
If Josh was the Boss from Hell he would have just told her to take off the pin and if she didn't like it she could find a new job. Remember their working in the White House you can't wear strange looking pins. I'm sure the rule is the same in all Administrations,
What's the White House rule about sleeping in one's office after getting blitzed and taking a meeting while smelling of B.O. and still being slightly drunk, cuz Josh did that.
Someone who is unaware that all of Star Trek takes place in a single galaxy -- which is far from a technical side point, since this fact plays a central role in several episodes and two entire series -- can't really call himself much of a Star Trek fan, as Josh Lyman does in this clip.
Well, The West Wing already takes place in an alternate universe from ours; we can tell that from the numerous mentions of fictional Bartlet predecessors alone, even if the differing election years didn't make it clear. That indicates the timeline split happened a few generations back. I wouldn't be surprised if the content of Star Trek were largely different, even if the themes remained the same.
Seem's like a little bit of Nit Picking too....but people are not always going to agree on everything.......Cheers from a Universe that I'm sure is real.....just not sure how many other's are around....no worries
Star Trek: The Next Generation. Season 1, Episode 6 "Where No One Has Gone Before." for a few minutes, the Enterprise-D is in the Triangulum Galaxy. And later on, they end up past the observable universe. In Star Trek: Voyager Season 4, Episode 1 "Scorpion Pt. 2, a portion of the episode takes place in a different DIMENSION.
@bbmcrae His remark was off by a considerable magnitude. It's like saying columbus went to the moon instead of America. You may consider it "pointless fanboy obsessing", I consider it precision.
Can we discuss Sorkin's Gilbert and Sullivan fangirling, or Toby's Yankees obsession? Being a Star Trek fan is just as charming. Josh's authoritarian manner is unforgiving and unhealthy. Such a positive examplr of individuality is an American ideal and should not be shunned in the White House of all places. Obama would Vulcan salute Janice.
Josh *is* a Star Trek fan - he knew what Cardassians were, and ends up telling Janice that they should make a Star Trek holiday so she can wear her pin. And, to use a Star Trek analogy someone on Reddit mentioned, this is the difference between Lt. Worf wearing his Klingon baldric and Ensign Ro having to take off her Bajoran earring. Hypocritical? Yes, but also a measure of status.
Missing Dialog: JANICE Got it. JOSH Except on Star Trek holidays. [exits] JANICE There's no such thing as a Star Trek holiday. JOSH Well, work hard around here. We'll make one.
As good as it is for Josh to be tolerant of dissent if an employee talked to me or heck, anybody like that they'd get suspension without pay at best. You don't condescend to your boss over a damn pin
First, a 'fetish' is when you are sexually aroused by something. And plenty of 'fans' (trekkies, warsies, bronies, whatever) take it to the level of activity he described. Second, while I understand dress code, keeping hobbies out of work, and that she shouldn't diss her boss like that, I get why she was wearing that pin. It was an affirmation for her. Star Trek embodies everything that America can, should, and must be. And in a White House like President Bartlett's, it's not surprising that an employee would want to embody those ideals.
Who said life was fair it happens at every work place I work at place were they made there own rules up even if it was in the employee hand book high school
So I can't bring my West Wing fetisj into the workplace? Oh man! I had just finished my favorite sates, districts and countires versus my favorite episodes and seasons and a crosstabulation of which is in which.
Don't get me wrong, I love the show. I just think the girl is an honest portrayal of a hardcore fan who assumes the non-fans are morons. It's all in the tone, not the wording.
There are no multiple galaxies, Josh. Jeez. Any time that canon went beyond the Alpha Quadrant, it was a mighty big deal. Leagues and leagues and tens of thousands of parsecs and a gabillion lightyears sorts of distances, okay? Not "What's your favorite galaxy?" Slap my Whitely-Housed head. ["Hrrmph" and marches off, camera right.]
I think the hypocrisy exists because its more socially acceptable for them to obsess over sports than tv shows. I also hate this speech but i am trying to explain why he would say that
Seriously, this was incredibly idiotic. Aaron Sorkin got into online argument on a message board and wrote this story in order to criticize members of that message board for spending too much time discussing their hobbies. Which by the way, included his show.
MIRANDA: (to Spock) I know now the great joy you felt when you joined minds with Kollos. SPOCK: I rejoice in your knowledge and in your achievement. MIRANDA: I understand, Mister Spock. The glory of creation is in its infinite diversity. SPOCK: And the ways our differences combine to create meaning and beauty. (Miranda gets on the transporter pad.) MIRANDA: Peace and long life, Spock. SPOCK: Live long and prosper, Miranda. KIRK: Peace.
Josh saying he has interests outside of work is a joke. When you work at the White House, you have no time for hobbies or outside interests. I suspect that's true in real life as well as in the WW universe.
The only thing missing from Josh's rant is, "let's get annoyed at someone who laughed at our favourite franchise". I'm a Star Trek fan. I've made lists and charts and pictures. I'm a nerd. Josh had a point, and the fact that most comments here are whining about it goes to proving it. Yous shouldn't get upset when someone doesn't like a TV show as much as you do.
He doesn't have a point. Making lists does not qualify as a fetish, for a show as semantic as this, they should know better. It's not about poking fun of something they like, it's about someone hypocritically demeaning something because he has a problem with displays of fandom.
The 22nd amendment was passed when Truman was president, so he is not barred from a third term by it. Also, Truman has been running for president in 1952 and not dropped out after poor showing in the New Hampshire primary. As for Johnson he is not barred from a third term because he serve less than two years of JFK's term, that made him eligible for reelection in 1968, again, he has to dropped out of poor result in primaries. I also don't like republican, I just wanna straight out the record
I'm pretty sure that this was written in response to that juror on the 1996 Whitewater trial who, for reasons passing understanding, was allowed to wear a Star Trek Starfleet uniform in court. Her reasons were the same that Janice's are in this episode, but I'm sorry - I'm a West Wing fan, a Star Trek fan, and a cosplayer, but even I found this wildly inappropriate, and I was amazed they let her get away with it. I get that she wanted to represent the ideals behind Star Trek, but Starfleet is NOT a branch of the real military, and wearing what is essentially a Halloween costume to serve jury duty does not count as civic duty. I was hoping that after this, someone would show up for jury duty dressed as Darth Vader and claim that this set precedence. That said, Josh, it's a tiny pin, get over it - if she had come in to work in her uniform, his speech would have been more appropriate. I'm sure hardly anyone else even recognised the pin.
Well that's a shame, you cut off the rest of the speech. It ended on a higher note that went like this:
"...you can't bring your hobbies into work, okay. . . . Except on Star Trek holidays."
"There are no Star Trek holidays"
"Stick around long enough and we'll make one"
Love that he said "Cardassian" - this being in the early 2000s, that meant he didn't just grow up watching the Original, he must've seen either TNG or DS9, just a few years prior to the events of The West Wing.
But she also calls the Star Trek franchise the "Star Fleet series" which no one does. And Josh talks about listing your "favorite galaxies" when for all intent and purpose all of Star Trek takes place in the same galaxy. Whoever wrote this dialogue probably just googled "Star Trek races" and plugged them in because no fan would ever talk about Star Trek this way.
@@travtotheworld This is the nerdiest comment I have ever read, and I used to play Warhammer 40,000.
There's a few key lines missing from the ending, which changes a lot of the message. Being a Star Trek fan and west wing fan, it's worth a look :)
Janice: Well Josh, I seem to remember the Steam Pipe Trunk Distribution Venue of the Assistant White House Counsel's office plastered with Gilbert & Sullivan posters and nobody having an issue with it. I also seem to remember an LA Lakers pendant and a Muhammad Ali poster in the White House Deputy Communications Director's office, and an actual living goldfish in the White House Press Secretary's office, and you come to me about hobbies in the work place.
In any case, I'm appealing this decision to Stacy. Not chess, Poker. How far do you want to take this, Josh? If you don't mind terribly, I have work to do.
They never expected anybody respectable to see that room, after all that was the……….room where they stuck the token Republican.
@@jimmy2k4o The president went there
@@jimmy2k4o How many respectable people saw the bullpen? How many of _them_ would notice a clerk's lapel pin?
I remember Josh wearing fishing pants after sleeping in his office smelling of B.O. and taking a meeting while still slightly drunk. He's a professional, dammit!
Continued:
"Got it."
"... Except on Star Trek holidays."
"There is no such thing as a Star Trek holiday."
"Work hard around here... we'll make one."
exactly.
missed the point but cutting that out.
There definitely are Star Trek holidays. Or at least one; April 5 is First Contact Day in celebration of the fact that the first contact between humans and aliens in the Star Trek universe occurs on April 5th, 2063 in Bozeman, Montana, USA, with the Vulcans.
Casey Broughton That’s not being a fan - that’s having a fetisch. ;)
Star Wars fans have May the 4th. Trekkies have April 5th and various key players' birthdays.
@@casey6556 Captain Kirk's Birthday, too. At least one town in Iowa celebrates it.
What I like the most about the West Wing is also what I like the most about Star Trek.
Everyone is so professional in both shows. They love what they are doing and they do it well. They have a sense if awe towards their responsibilities and a great deal if respect for the other professionals working alongside them. In both shows, you sometimes have to force people to take a break because they are working too hard. I find it inspiring.
Also, the characters in both series are always striving to do the right thing. Even when faced with a complex dilemma, they think it out and do what they believe is right rather than what benefits them.
This scene is why the cast of The West Wing was listed as deceased in Voyager.
When?
@@straightouttacoffee7648 Season 7, Episode 2: Imperfection
Live long and prosper, Janice.
For 15 Years I was an “Officer of the Crown”, employed by the Parliament and the Government of the Commonwealth of Australia, attached to the Australian Department of Defence, embedded into the Australian Military, chiefly although not exclusively the Australian Army, and on many days I brought My Hobby into work and not only was My Hobby Applauded, but I was granted Paid Leave on numerous occasions, to pursue My Hobby with vigour.
That’s because Australia is amazing 👌
2:09 -
Josh: Which Romulan would you like to see coupled with a Cardassian?
Me: Garak and Tomalak
What’s cool is that this show had a number of Star Trek actors like John Billingsley, aka Dr. Phlox and Christopher Lloyd, aka Commander Kruge.
Plus Q as the pollster.
@@datadivanet I forgot John de Lancie was in West Wing
@@datadivanet well bartlet made a deal with him and he was willing to support a human that was less savage.
I love this clip but by cutting off the ending you missed the most important part of the entire scene.
Josh, while entirely within his rights for the position he held in the administration, was simply wrong here. That Gish-Gallop he did was not just trite it also showed he wasn't actually a fan based on how many things he got wrong. Regardless of that, it's entirely reasonable to say "This is a professional environment so leave your fandoms at home", but he took the time and effort to deliberately humiliate an employee by associating them with the least professional aspects of the fandom.
Josh is and always has been cruel. He delights in humiliating people. I enjoyed watching the show but if I knew Josh in real life I wouldn't be friends with him.
Speaking as a massive Star Trek fan, the line "What Romulan would you most like to see coupled with a Cardassian" meant a lot coming from Josh
That's easy. Garrack and Subcommander Taris. No, Troi in Romulan makeup doesn't count...
Come on, it's Seska and T'Rul. Two Martha Hacketts? I'm sold!
You're all forgetting that in the SAME episode Sam takes down a baseball pennant from his wall as he packs to leave(!). Substitute anything Josh said about the obsessiveness of Star Trek fans and how they spend their time and replace it with hypotheticals about team sports and the whole monologue is filled with hypocrisy. (That said I'm a huge WW fan..but this speech pissed me off)
For some reason it's different to me, having a decoration in your office vs wearing something.
@@RandomGuy285 fair enuf. Although Bartlet would roam the corridors with Notre Dame sweatshirts on
And Sam had baseball hats....
I felt like this segment was one of the more hypocritical on the West Wing. Toby has spend entire episodes complaining about the pitching in a baseball game. An episode just one or two distant from this one had a subplot concerning Sam's Lakers banner that he hung in his office. Nowhere are these displays of sports fandom treated as anything but normal, despite the fact that we see more obsession from those scenes than we ever see from this Trek fan.
.....you're using Toby and Sam to defend an opinion that Josh has? Ummm.....
Josh Hitch You totally right. Why is it okay that sport events are much better then a TV series? You often hear them telling stories on sports events.... that huge on base ball play... that home run etc...sport fetishism
You can discuss them, but there would probably be the same issue if she was wearing a football scarf
Except that Bartlett, Toby and various others have been seen at work wearing college sweatshirts, ballcaps, jackets, etc. Maybe that was on a weekend? Sure. Okay, but far more obvious and glaring than a small lapel pin. For all his excellent dialogue skills, Sorkin was kinda harsh on "fans," (especially those on the internet) and used Josh on more than one occasion to speak down to them.
Personally think star track and star war are for losers having a sport fan flag is different then a pin it brings attention too that person at the end of the day Josh is her boss if it bothers her that much she can quit life is not fair
You cut out the end of that which is actually the best part! You Bastids!
"But I wouldn't expect you to understand those kind of things" is pretty much shouting it from the hills.
It’s so weird for Josh to stretch out a conversation about a button for more than one scene. She wasn’t even that weird about it to begin with, trust me I’ve seen worse from fans of fiction that don’t know the difference from the show and reality.
That’s the part that gets me. She wasn’t wearing a t-shirt with Kirk’s face on it. We don’t have any indication that she was bothering anyone working by talking about it (and if she and someone else were on break, then they can talk about whatever they please). She just wore a pin. And somehow that makes her obsessed.
"Donna, the internet people are going crazy."
@@animeotaku307 part of working for the white house is that you're expected to put down your personal identity for the good of the team. that's why it's called public service.
@@kaixiang5390 Nobody would even know but other fans
The lady who played Janice, the Star Trek lady was on Big Love with Bill Paxton. Everybody on that show is famous. The President’s Daughter stars in The Handmaid’s Tale. The Star Trek lady played a nosy neighbor who couldn’t get pregnant and lived across from the 3 polygamous families. Terrific show.
Another correction to add to the list compiled here: First contact Day is a Star Trek holiday...
First Contact Day is also the 100th anniversary of John F. Kennedy's assassination, when America lost its innocence.
@@douglashenry6996 First contact day is April 5 JFK was assassinated November 22
@@douglashenry6996 August 24, 1814, April 12, 1861, December 7, 1941, August 6 and 9, 1945, August 2, 1964, September 11, 2001, Jan. 6, 2021. May not be First Contact Day, these and others fit the second part.
Kirk=Bartlett
Toby=spock
leo=bones
CJ=Uhura
Josh=chekov
Sulu=sam
Charlie=scotty
Donna = Janice Rand.
Technically this would be an issue with Human Resources and her supervisor. The Deputy Chief of Staff may mention it but wouldn't get involved.
Technically, she's working in his department, which he can set and/or enforce policy, including dress and appearance consistent with professionalism. The flipside of that coin is, decorative accouterments that are tasteful, not excessive, and not presenting a safety issue are not considered to be detractive from said professional appearance.
Also, he goes into the whole "list your X" as the difference between fandom and fetish. As has been pointed out, "Fantasy Leagues. It's like D&D, for jocks." Fans of more "mainstream" things like sports can definitely compete with, say, Sci-Fi nerds and our ability to list off episodes or quotes.
Haha, Josh is knowledgeable about Star Trek too! Never would have thought that...
Not really. The whole speech ofbhisnis condescending and comes off as him using terms he's heard before and just retained.
And remember, everyone in these shows brings up sports all the time. Josh Lyman is just a dick to his subordinates because he can.
@@FaxModem1 In particular when he talks about your "favorite galaxies." Any Star Trek fan would know that Star Trek essentially takes place entirely in the Milky Way.
You missed the best part when joss says "except on star trek hollidays" and she says "there isn't any" and joss goes "work harder and we will make one up"
April 5th... Should be a Star Trek Holiday.... September 8th.. Should be a Trek Holiday....
@@briscoejr1 I approve of either suggestion. But September 8th would hold more meaning, as it was the first aired episode of Star Trek. April 5th is the day we make (fictional) first contact with an alien race. Who knows, if any of us are still around in 41 years, 2 months and 6 days... maybe we do make first contact :P
Personally, I don't think that having a fetish. It's just being a big and knowledgeable fan. Does someone who can name who played in every World Series have a fetish or are they just an enthusiastic fan? It annoys me that a series as intelligently written as "The West Wing" is so quick to mock and derogate people for having a pastime. While wearing a "Star Trek" communicator into the White House might be a bit much, his personal comments are really uncalled for. I'm disappointed frankly.
They chopped up the video here and left out a lot of the lines at the end that do not make this as harsh
@Minderrt There's a difference between having something in your office, where people expect to see items of a personal nature, and having something visible and on your person at all times, walking around for anyone to see. It's absolutely inappropriate for Sam to wear a baseball cap, or for Toby to have a Yankees tie. However, if Toby has a Yankees mug in his office, no one would care.
Or maybe they just didn't really put that much thought into it, and we're all overanalyzing. That's my pick ^^
And don't forget the Episode where President Bartlet MADE C.J wear a Notre Dame cap for an ENTIRE episode simply because she mocked Notre Dame. This argument stems from Sorkin getting into an online debate and using his position and power to punch down on the little guys.
A big name creator and director sticking it to the internet chat rooms...real mature of him.
The single biggest issue I have with this is that it actually misrepresentations StarTrek. It's like the scene was written by someone who has read up but never watched it. The Show is about a brighter future and trying to set the higher standard. They may not do that so well in TOS, but in every series since, they go out of their way to make it clear about the higher moral and social standard of living they strive for. And the thing thing can be said of the West Wing. Setting the higher standard. That is what they should have talked about
They do it better on TOS than the laughable Discovery and Picard.
i'm not sure how the West Wing can do this to Star Trek. after all, the West Wing IS Star Trek. (bunch of amazing young do-gooders set out to save the galaxy (country) under the leadership of a demanding yet nurturing leader)
+Brian Simontacchi You see, you are exactly the person Josh was talking about! LOL!
+pac401 i don't think so. if you haven't seen Star Trek, you might not understand the comparison. Bartlet is a lot like Jean-Luc Picard from Star Trek: The Next Generation. Both the West Wing and Star Trek are set in these idealist fantasies. Everyone on the team is always right, and they always triumph over whoever else is out there. Both involve saving the country/galaxy. The tone of Star Trek and the tone of the West Wing are quite similar. For Sorkin not to realize that is a little short-sighted, in my opinion.
+pac401 just because I've seen both shows, doesn't make me stubborn or obsessed.
+Brian Simontacchi Ah, but in the West Wing they are not always right. That was the beauty of the show. The struggle of each character about what was right and wrong. Some of the best scenes were the heated arguments about policy.
+pac401 even with the Shareef thing, they made it seem as though Bartlet had no choice, as if he was right to be wrong. for the most part, the show made the crew out to be on the side of good, fighting for good. i'm not trying to get specific, but the Dead Poets Society feel works for both West Wing and Star Trek. that's all i'm saying.
I love this at 1:49 specially. I'm a sci-fi fan but I get the point there.
OMG Two great shows come together
The fact that he lists Cardassians and Romulans shows he really is a Trek fan
The fact that he ships Romulans and Cardassians tells you he is a freaky Trek fan
you cut at the wrong point near the end when he says except on star trek hollidays..
JONES : I was just noticing your Vulcan IDIC, Mister Spock. Is it a reminder that, as a Vulcan, you can mind-link with the Medusans far better than I could?
KIRK: Well, I doubt that Mister Spock would don the most revered of all Vulcan symbols merely to annoy you, Doctor Jones.
SPOCK: As a matter of fact, I wear it this evening to honour you, Doctor.
MIRANDA: Indeed?
When you're right, your right. Well stated.
Let's list our top 10 favorite episodes of West Wing. Let's list our top 10 least favorite episodes of West Wing. Let's talk about our favorite characters. Let's talk about which characters we would most like to see get together with other characters.
Way to beat up your fanbase, you hypocrites.
A very strange moment in the greatest show ever made, that's for sure.
Still, true. We have become a very fetishistic society - This series was done over 15 years ago and (who'd have guessed?) we consider the lists mentioned by Josh valid journalistic pieces, video game companies get voted as the worst world wide every year beyond the military industrial complex, polluters, the medical-insurance combine or Wall Street, and icon based franchises have taken over the movie releases for the next few years at least -not based on quality of the product but on the weight of the fan base. So yeah, right of the money. Good on them for not pandering to the audience.
Guess we all have a WW fetish.
i have favourite episodes and characters of west wing
@BjoernarEricSven Right. Which is what he's spoofing here. Because what he's actually talking about is a make-believe TV show where the actors never left a set in the middle of LA or wherever they were and the words were written by TV writers. They made a great. classic show, but getting one's tricorder in a twist over minutiae like this misses the actual point of what Sorkin's saying. And underlines it, at the same time. So, really, well done.
@TheFPSChannel fair point!
Why are there no video shots accompanying the dialogue at the end? Was it that way in the original episode?
@mecotterill Not just any jury; it was an alternate juror for the Whitewater trial in Arkansas--and as I recall, the actress here looks just a little like the notorious juror, who was eventually dismissed from the panel for speaking to the media, violating the judge's gag order.
Donna's reaction was so awesome. "How the hell would I know?!" "It's a her!?"
I had never thought much about this small subplot until I rewatched the episode recently. I understand that it was intended as a small humorous C level story line, that a significant number of people see Star Trek fans as obsessive and fanatical, but Josh's directive really is oppressive.
How would Josh feel if the President issued a memo saying no more Stars of David could be worn in the White House. It really is closer to the same situation, than it appears at first glance. Both are symbols of a personal philosophical position.
Janice Trumble, the character wearing the Star Trek pin, didn't display any of the "fetish" like behavior that Josh attributed to Star Trek fans. If she had, he would have been perfectly justified in saying you can't bring your hobbies to work.
She wore a pin, Josh unfairly attached the crazy behavior to that pin.
They cut some of her best lines, pointing out that reliving games, displaying pennants, wearing jerseys, and the like is the same, if not MORE obsessive, than her fandom.
You are actually comparing a Star Trek pin with a Star of David. There is no further argument from me to be made here.
A Star Trek pin shouldn't be compared to a Star of David. One is an entity that symbolizes the absolute best of humanity, their undying spirit to stand together in the face of adversity, the other is a symbol of mystical notions that two triangles put together embody the spiritual energy of creation, all the while acting as a guide for people to do silly things.
If anything, a Star of David can quite reasonably be viewed as a Zionist symbol, and therefore political, and even treasonous.
your right
augh. the video doesn't have the rest of what josh was saying. actually, as i remember it, his explanation to janice is one of the less assholic things he's done on the show. people watching this should see the whole exchange.
Do Star Trek fans have favorite galaxies? I thought it all took place in the same one.
Wouldn't that just make it easier to choose?
There were different quadrants. The alpha- where earth is. Delta- where Voyager is thrown into. And the Gamma quadrant- on the other side of the wormhole.
ok why not bring hockey card or number one fan glove to work?
Now I remember why I would always change the channel to watch "Voyager" when this show came on...
By Josh's theory I shouldn't be a West Wing fan lol
The world would be a better place if more Trekkies watched the West Wing.
Her "You don't like Trek so you must not be very smart" attitude... gah. Lighten up, lady.
Favorite galaxies????? Theres only 1 galaxy explored in the star trek universe for the vast majority of the show. I think theres a few episodes where a crew is shifted somehow to a totally different galaxy.
Its all about fair and balanced application of policy. If there is a policy where no Fan affilitation of any kind is allowed in the whitehouse (eg. No sports fan, no music fan, no TV/movie fan) then this is perfectly acceptable. I personally do not understand why there would be that rule, but there are lots of things I dont understand.
If however others are allowed to wear Baseball team pins, or Jimmi Hendrix pins then this is totally out of line, and totally out of character for the show
Who said life was fair
Imagine being such a shit boss that you complain about a pin because "You can't bring your hobbies into work", but one of your earliest scenes involved bringing your hangover followed by your fishing waders into work.
@TheFPSChannel except for the original point about inspiring confidence.
@BjoernarEricSven Amazing. You just did the kind of pointless fanboy obsessing the scene was talking about. So, he said galaxies. I love Star Trek, but big whoop.
Its a pin. It isn't like there is a map of the galaxy that doesn't include The Klingon Empire on it hanging in the oval office. Its a pin.
"Favourite galaxies"? Actually, 'Star Trek' takes place in THIS galaxy.
I absolutely love 'The West Wing'. But if they sniff at something, they should at least get the details right.
If Josh was the Boss from Hell he would have just told her to take off the pin and if she didn't like it she could find a new job. Remember their working in the White House you can't wear strange looking pins. I'm sure the rule is the same in all Administrations,
What's the White House rule about sleeping in one's office after getting blitzed and taking a meeting while smelling of B.O. and still being slightly drunk, cuz Josh did that.
I've got a damned Justice League poster in my office at work. I don't work at the White House, but damn.
Someone who is unaware that all of Star Trek takes place in a single galaxy -- which is far from a technical side point, since this fact plays a central role in several episodes and two entire series -- can't really call himself much of a Star Trek fan, as Josh Lyman does in this clip.
+Moshe Matitya Very Good Point. Nice Catch.
Now....are we talking Fan?...or Fetish??
Well, The West Wing already takes place in an alternate universe from ours; we can tell that from the numerous mentions of fictional Bartlet predecessors alone, even if the differing election years didn't make it clear. That indicates the timeline split happened a few generations back. I wouldn't be surprised if the content of Star Trek were largely different, even if the themes remained the same.
Seem's like a little bit of Nit Picking too....but people are not always going to agree on everything.......Cheers from a Universe that I'm sure is real.....just not sure how many other's are around....no worries
Star Trek: The Next Generation. Season 1, Episode 6 "Where No One Has Gone Before." for a few minutes, the Enterprise-D is in the Triangulum Galaxy. And later on, they end up past the observable universe.
In Star Trek: Voyager Season 4, Episode 1 "Scorpion Pt. 2, a portion of the episode takes place in a different DIMENSION.
@bbmcrae
His remark was off by a considerable magnitude. It's like saying columbus went to the moon instead of America. You may consider it "pointless fanboy obsessing", I consider it precision.
You can't bring Your Hobbies into Work -- alright, but surely you can bring Your VALUES into Work...?
Can we discuss Sorkin's Gilbert and Sullivan fangirling, or Toby's Yankees obsession? Being a Star Trek fan is just as charming. Josh's authoritarian manner is unforgiving and unhealthy. Such a positive examplr of individuality is an American ideal and should not be shunned in the White House of all places. Obama would Vulcan salute Janice.
Josh *is* a Star Trek fan - he knew what Cardassians were, and ends up telling Janice that they should make a Star Trek holiday so she can wear her pin. And, to use a Star Trek analogy someone on Reddit mentioned, this is the difference between Lt. Worf wearing his Klingon baldric and Ensign Ro having to take off her Bajoran earring. Hypocritical? Yes, but also a measure of status.
Sorkin's snarky little ode to the internet community. LOL
and the best line at the end is missed off nope fail post this one ;-(
Missing Dialog:
JANICE
Got it.
JOSH
Except on Star Trek holidays. [exits]
JANICE
There's no such thing as a Star Trek holiday.
JOSH
Well, work hard around here. We'll make one.
What. The. Fuck. Why would you end the clip before Josh finished making his point, to say nothing of being finished *speaking* ?
Downvote for cutting off the end
he told her.
As good as it is for Josh to be tolerant of dissent if an employee talked to me or heck, anybody like that they'd get suspension without pay at best. You don't condescend to your boss over a damn pin
If you're a literalist, perhaps. I give the show more credit than that.
First, a 'fetish' is when you are sexually aroused by something. And plenty of 'fans' (trekkies, warsies, bronies, whatever) take it to the level of activity he described. Second, while I understand dress code, keeping hobbies out of work, and that she shouldn't diss her boss like that, I get why she was wearing that pin. It was an affirmation for her. Star Trek embodies everything that America can, should, and must be. And in a White House like President Bartlett's, it's not surprising that an employee would want to embody those ideals.
Especially this employee...the name used is her own; and she HAD a role in creating TOS. Primarily as a writer.
There are reasonable explanations and one was all that was needed to explain why to not wear the pin.
call. his. bluff.
Who said life was fair it happens at every work place I work at place were they made there own rules up even if it was in the employee hand book high school
At least he knows about Cardassians. 🖖
So I can't bring my West Wing fetisj into the workplace?
Oh man! I had just finished my favorite sates, districts and countires versus my favorite episodes and seasons and a crosstabulation of which is in which.
spot on !!!!!!
but then who says that the feds are all honour and honest - theres something slyness about the federation
Haha, that's probably what it is.
Whoever edited this video Didn't understand the point of the video, you cut off all the relevant parts.
This comment section is Nerdvana.
yesh i liked him
Don't get me wrong, I love the show.
I just think the girl is an honest portrayal of a hardcore fan who assumes the non-fans are morons.
It's all in the tone, not the wording.
There are no multiple galaxies, Josh. Jeez. Any time that canon went beyond the Alpha Quadrant, it was a mighty big deal. Leagues and leagues and tens of thousands of parsecs and a gabillion lightyears sorts of distances, okay? Not "What's your favorite galaxy?" Slap my Whitely-Housed head. ["Hrrmph" and marches off, camera right.]
I think the hypocrisy exists because its more socially acceptable for them to obsess over sports than tv shows. I also hate this speech but i am trying to explain why he would say that
Upon re-watching, the show's takes aren't always that great
Nicely edited.
Josh is a Star Trek fan that is so....... lmfao
I think everyone here is missing the point.
Seriously, this was incredibly idiotic. Aaron Sorkin got into online argument on a message board and wrote this story in order to criticize members of that message board for spending too much time discussing their hobbies. Which by the way, included his show.
MIRANDA: (to Spock) I know now the great joy you felt when you joined minds with Kollos.
SPOCK: I rejoice in your knowledge and in your achievement.
MIRANDA: I understand, Mister Spock. The glory of creation is in its infinite diversity.
SPOCK: And the ways our differences combine to create meaning and beauty.
(Miranda gets on the transporter pad.)
MIRANDA: Peace and long life, Spock.
SPOCK: Live long and prosper, Miranda.
KIRK: Peace.
I'd let her have it on her desk. Problem solved.
Josh saying he has interests outside of work is a joke. When you work at the White House, you have no time for hobbies or outside interests. I suspect that's true in real life as well as in the WW universe.
The only thing missing from Josh's rant is, "let's get annoyed at someone who laughed at our favourite franchise".
I'm a Star Trek fan. I've made lists and charts and pictures. I'm a nerd.
Josh had a point, and the fact that most comments here are whining about it goes to proving it. Yous shouldn't get upset when someone doesn't like a TV show as much as you do.
He doesn't have a point. Making lists does not qualify as a fetish, for a show as semantic as this, they should know better.
It's not about poking fun of something they like, it's about someone hypocritically demeaning something because he has a problem with displays of fandom.
GuruJudge21 well let's not get to carried away with defense of fandom. It's a toxic parasite that goes alongside the enjoyment of fans.
The 22nd amendment was passed when Truman was president, so he is not barred from a third term by it. Also, Truman has been running for president in 1952 and not dropped out after poor showing in the New Hampshire primary. As for Johnson he is not barred from a third term because he serve less than two years of JFK's term, that made him eligible for reelection in 1968, again, he has to dropped out of poor result in primaries.
I also don't like republican, I just wanna straight out the record
I thought startrek was utter gibberish.
I don’t agree with him. They should ban the wearing of all pins..maybe even the flag ..just saying
I'm pretty sure that this was written in response to that juror on the 1996 Whitewater trial who, for reasons passing understanding, was allowed to wear a Star Trek Starfleet uniform in court. Her reasons were the same that Janice's are in this episode, but I'm sorry - I'm a West Wing fan, a Star Trek fan, and a cosplayer, but even I found this wildly inappropriate, and I was amazed they let her get away with it. I get that she wanted to represent the ideals behind Star Trek, but Starfleet is NOT a branch of the real military, and wearing what is essentially a Halloween costume to serve jury duty does not count as civic duty. I was hoping that after this, someone would show up for jury duty dressed as Darth Vader and claim that this set precedence.
That said, Josh, it's a tiny pin, get over it - if she had come in to work in her uniform, his speech would have been more appropriate. I'm sure hardly anyone else even recognised the pin.
This is clearly just Aaron Sorkin being a snob.
TH-cam STAR TREK FAN RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE
yeah this was a really bad cut of this scene.
Star Wars is better...